Latest / Financial Planner Life Podcast / Mark Rockliffe and Chris Larkin on the 70% Confidence Gap Costing Financial Planners Business

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Mark Rockliffe and Chris Larkin on the 70% Confidence Gap Costing Financial Planners Business · Financial Planner Life Podcast

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_02: And today on the Financial Planner Live Podcast, we welcome back Chris Larkin from Big Rock, and we break down the advisor diagnostic report that you our listeners filled out.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_02: We go into detail about the soft skills and practical skills that Big Rock offer financial planning companies to stay ahead of the competition.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: And today he brings a guest along with him.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's Mark Rockcliffe from Pembroke Financial Services.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: And he's here today to tell us exactly how Big Rock has helped him build deeper, more meaningful relationships with clients and a happier financial planning team.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_02: Chris, welcome back to the Financial Planner Life podcast.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's really, really good to have you back.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: Great to be back.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: Excellent.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: We're going to go through that advisor diagnostics tool that we put out last time.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, that's right.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: To find out really about the state of financial planning.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: What are people doing around their training and development within the business, the culture of the business?
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: So that was a really interesting uh diagnostic tool we put out.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of the financial planning, uh, sorry, planner life uh listeners did fill that out.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: So we're gonna go into a bit of a detail uh breakdown of what was covered within that.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, what the results show us.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: But you've brought a guest with us today.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um do you want to sort of introduce the guest?
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: So this is Mark Rockcliffe.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um he will do a better introduction, no doubt, of himself, but he's the CEO of Pembroke, okay, and Pembroke's a firm that we've been working with a lot uh very recently and still are.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought Mark would be a great person to come in.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, not least because he has such passionate views about what the opportunities, training, and development bring in firms in our industry.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, this is Mark.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Chris.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, Sam.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: Good to see you.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm good, thanks.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: Really well.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: That was uh the politest introduction I think I've had um in the world.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: And as polite as it will get.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thanks.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um so yeah, but um I'll do it how it's just a bit of context set, maybe Sam.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm three years enroll and uh um having worked with Big Rock now for the last 12 months.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: So hopefully that'll give us uh a chance to talk about why and what we do and why we're perhaps thinking about one of the sort of um some of the magic source in our businesses around this L and D stuff.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm really looking into really looking forward to actually getting into the meat of that conversation with you.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: Fantastic.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_02: Chris, just do us a favor.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: Anyone who missed the first episode, obviously you can go back into a listen to it.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: But just give us a bit of an introduction to yourself, yeah, who Big Rock are and what you do for financial planning businesses.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of course.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm Chris Larkin and I run Big Rock.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: Big Rock is a training consultancy.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: We've been operating in the industry for 22 years now, Sam.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, since I was a young, good-looking man like you are.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um and uh we have specialized in those 22 years on exactly what we're talking about today.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm an X-planner, all the consultants in Big Rock are X planners, and what we really focus on is helping advice firms to optimize their client experience through their people and through their leadership.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, that's what we do.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we we like to think that over that time we've developed a really good insight into what works, what doesn't.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: And our kind of approach to this is a really consultative approach with clients that we think drives the best relationships and the best commercial results.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, love that.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: Mark, why did you end up working with Big Rock and Chris then?
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: How did that come about?
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so um probably nearly two years ago, um, having been a year enroll, you start to try uh understand and look at the real drivers of growth in the business, and there's always the normal financial metrics that you're always driven to as a CEO to look at.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: But there's a piece around actually where is the real competitive advantage going to come from and how do we genuinely distinguish our business?
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so um there's a word that Chris used then around being consultative, and so I think, um and this is perhaps just an easy summary, but I think most advice firms will be very familiar with the caste process and being competent advisor status.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, there's so the word that Chris used was a bit about being um consultative, and as I said, the the the thing that um we talked about quite a lot, Chris, was this piece around the there's the sector has focused, rightly so, in in over many years now, focusing, getting to a sort of a minimum viable standard in terms of professional qualification, but the competent advisor status is always through the lens of knowledge acquisition.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and for me, the piece that's sadly been missing, and partly because I think we have a culture in the UK of being scared of the word sales and all that good stuff, but is the genuine ability to be consultative and engaged with the end client.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so for us, that's a soft skills piece that's been missing from an L and D culture perspective, I think, in the industry.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: There are some great firms that are investing in that way, but they're I think few and far between.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: So that was us that said we need to go and look at where do we get that.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: And having met Chris and his team, there's a number of things that strike you when you meet Chris's team.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: One is they have got the financial planning background themselves, but actually they're genuine in their processes around being consultative.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you think about it logically, if you engage with a um L and D practice like Chris's, Big Rock, then you'd expect them to be consulted with you if they're going to teach it and train it.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: We should practice what we preach.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: And again, that's one of the first things that some people fell down with.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: Funny enough, when we went through our DD process, we looked at three firms.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: So the consultative piece is really important.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I will we'll elaborate on that a bit more as we go through the morning.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: You've had huge success.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, Pembroke Financial Planning, I think it's been going for 33 years, but in the last three years, you know, you've had some real super ramped up success.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_02: So you think you've gone from like 80 to around 170 people?
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: What yeah, I've got to ask you though, when you were from the outside looking in and hearing that story, it sounds like you're you're you're really successful.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_02: So you must have been doing things right.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: So what were you missing?
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_02: And how did you establish that you were missing it?
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_02: What was the what was the telltale signs?
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: What were the alarm bells going off in your head where you thought I have to do something about this?
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: There's a number of things really.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think that um first off, it's 33-year-old the business.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: So if you think the first 30 odd years, under great leadership, genuinely, good people, little business, you know, privately owned, all that good stuff.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: But we've had a significant investor in the business since 2020.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: I've picked up range three and a bit years ago now.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the thing that I uh perhaps I have an advantage in some ways, I have no emotional attachment to being a financial planner myself.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not qualified to do so.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I I come at it from a slightly different, perhaps through I look through a different lens, I think, to a lot of people.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't grown it myself, and and it's a great privileged position to be in when you're handed a you know an existing business that's already successful, built by really good people who are very, very passionate about the subject.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think the thing that I have long held a belief is that we have for so long, and RDR is a really good example, retail distribution review 2013, I think first came to pass in the House of Laws 2006, it was first signposted.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: Since that time, pretty much, I think we've literally seen an industry, as I say, focused on qualification, and so many good people actually, very highly skilled people left the industry after that.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: Now, of course, there'll be those who sit and say you have an awful lot of less good people left as well, which is also true.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: But lots of soft skills, what I'd call it, embedded soft skills just left the industry, left the profession.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's one of the things I have seen.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: I have a really privileged place of being.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: I have five years running my consultancy business.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: I work with some brilliant businesses around the UK, you know, fantastic businesses in the Northwest, um, business in the Northeast, another great charter practice in the Northeast.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: And you get to see when it works well, when people are really focusing and investing in their soft skills, um, you know, take a business like um active or chartered financial planning practice up in the northeast, really good practice, really well run, but they focus on their skills development, their people.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: They're really client-centric.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I can look at examples and say, is this all our best ideas and best thinking of ours alone?
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: No, of course not.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really lucky.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: I I had five years helped shape my thinking as a consultant, working with and board advisor to a few businesses, looking at best practice.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: So in our business, already successful, but actually the game changer was around it's pretty simple, actually, Sam, without being um too blunt about it.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: But actually, how do you ensure you're most relevant to the person who's paying your fees?
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you probably need to ensure that they really enjoy the experience, you know.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: And one really good example, if I say to if I interviewed a thousand advisors, which you guys will have done, but if I interviewed a thousand advisors in our sector, how often do you need to see a client?
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: They'll say a regulatory response, annual review.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, once a year.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, you know, just just for a second, let that settle for a minute.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: Once a year, well, that's when you're that's because the regulators, you've got this contract, and the regulator said we need to annual suitability.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's the perception.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, is that really when we should be seeing clients?
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: So when you turn that on its head and say, when you speak to clients about when would they find that you should be able to talk to us, it's anytime through the 365 days when it's fit and appropriate for them.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: So we need to sort of turn on the head.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's reversing that focus, isn't it?
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: It is completely that, Chris, and that's the thing we talked a little bit about.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: How do you empower advisors to know that that's their role?
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: To truly be good at what you know.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: We have some really competent advisors when I arrived, and I would just say, and some of the businesses we bought, Sam, you know, people have been really encouraged by the fact that we are, yes, focused on the financial metrics, but also around the cultural aspect of putting the client genuinely centre at this business.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that I think that's probably one of the things that I identified earlier that I thought we could would be a differentiator for us.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: So your background isn't financial, you're not a financial advisor.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: You no, no, as uh as many of our financial planners in our business will greatly tell you.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a really lucky position.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: I I um I have a commitment that um um on average, once a week I go and meet with a client and the financial planner, so I can ask all those questions that you know as nosy CEOs allowed to ask around how they work with us, what they like about it, what they don't, when does it work well, when does it not work well, uh, how does our brand land.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: I went to see um clients of ours in Dorset um last year, uh, husband and wife, um, both successful in their own right.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: Really, really good people, lovely people.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, they invited us to stay the whole day, which is amazing.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but they just gave me free counsel.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: Literally, I sat there like a sponge for three hours with them telling us on all the things they thought that we could be better at as a business.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: They liked us, but they gave us lots and lots of ideas on things we could be doing.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: So we've taken some of that on board.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: But what it made me realize was that the relationship was with our previous financial planner who'd subsequently retired, but the relationship was fantastic, and what they described or how they got on with the relationship they had with that financial planner and how he had worked with them told me there was a real that was the model, not the only one, because I it's not you can't build a business off base of one person's opinion or two people's opinion, but actually seeing one client a week with a financial planner for the last three years has taught me quite a lot around actually just reinforcing beliefs I had.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_02: So at that stage, then you felt that there was a bit of a knowledge gap in the business and that you needed to bring in some training and development, which is why you reached out to Chris.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, less knowledge, a little bit of knowledge.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: Culture and skills for me.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's the cultural piece first, definitely, Chris.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: We talked a lot about the culture piece around, I think you have to take ownership of the fact that these businesses, all of our businesses are you know fortunate enough, someone's paying you.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: So why are they paying you?
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: What is it they value?
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: There's been fantastic research all around the world.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, some big investment groups have um sponsored this type of research.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: You've seen it all around the world.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: And one of my previous roles and was at a business called SEI, we commissioned some research around consumer behaviour and what they liked around the financial planning community, what they valued.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they don't, you know, typically clients say I value advice, but if you look at all the actual interactions that they describe that helps them build confidence and trust in their planner, that stuff that is really about the depth of relationship and um and building that.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I think if you are in a position which I was coming in, you do get an opportunity to look at this sector and say, okay, what is it that's done well by the best people and how can you model that?
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, that's you know, this is um this is Chris's world and you know, modelling best behaviour and then being able to repeat it.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: So, yes, a bit of knowledge.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: So, can we make people consciously competent before it becomes learned behaviour, but also it's a real upskilling.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: And um, in our business at least, I can only talk for hours.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, probably the best example, we bought a really nice charter of financial planning practice near Worthing as part of the um acquisitions in the last three years, and one of the significant shareholders in there is very successful, very, very high-quality financial planner.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh John had come to us and said to us during the process, come on, I said, Would you like to come on this thing?
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: He'd probably say, I won't come to the training, I've done it all, been there, I'm successful.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: Not only came to the training, but he literally put himself forward and said, There's four things out of this that I can pick up that I absolutely didn't do before, and I will now be a better financial planner as a result.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: And he reached out to one of the younger guns in there, if you remember in the room and said to a chap called Tom, Tom, you're so much better at that stuff.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: I need to learn that from you.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: Now, when you get someone culturally where you've got a culture where you've got your most senior people genuinely being up for sort of taking on a new way of learning or new way of delivering and working, it it it tells you you're you've you've got a bit of a a a winning uh recipe, perhaps.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love it.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think just just very quickly, Sam, on that piece, you know, without going into individuals too deeply.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think one of the things I found most impressive about that is that this person, John, that uh Mark is talking about, was right at that kind of peak of his career in terms of success and earnings and probably starting to look at the the kind of eventual window.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: And probably the thing that I was probably most pleased with is that feedback that he said this has almost rejuvenated his love for the role.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, he's been doing it brilliantly for 25 years plus, you know.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: But actually that deeper into clients, their story, their aspirations, their goals, has kind of turned it a little bit in his head and just given him a bit of zest back for it, which was wonderful to see.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, but he was great for for allowing others to learn, but also wanting to learn from them.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it picks up back on your culture point as well, Sam.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, the other thing that that you say about being successful, we are, you know, like a lot of firms, we have we are enjoying a really successful period.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and part of that success has come through acquisitions.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: But what's really interesting for me is when we're when we are in pitching, we're and we've we've had 13 occasions um up until recently, we've got a few more now, but 13 occasions we've pitched, nine of the firms have decided to sell to us, and John's business is an example.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things that's really obvious is when you're in that process, is that when we lay out that we we are genuine about financial planners spending more time delivering financial planning and more time with their client, yeah.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: You can see people like John going, That's for me.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: I I've ran a business, I've built it very successfully, it's been great, but don't let me do it.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: Please take all that off me.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, let me go and be a financial planner.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: So why aren't they doing that then?
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: What's stopping them from spending more time anyway in general?
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_02: Because most people get into things like financial planning to solve problems and spend time with clients, right?
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: So why aren't they doing that in the moment?
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: What's stopping people?
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: What are you seeing is there's gaps where people just can't deliver the level of service that they actually feel physically want to do?
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: Is it knowledge gap or is it time gap?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's a couple of things there, Sam.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, one thing Mark's talking about and he's right, is that the industry's been quite rightly on a kind of a change curve over a number of years.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: So that driving up of technical knowledge and ability, that driving up of ensuring there are great client outcomes, was really important to do.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: But what that has done to your earlier point is it has in some areas driven people to a compliant process, yeah.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: That is not when you sit the other side of the desk from it, it's not always an enjoyable process.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: We've observed things sometimes with some of our clients where you see clients being talked through methodically a 40-page suitability letter, right?
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because if I do that, I can't make a mistake.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's got to be compliant.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: Now I'm sure they do it slightly differently when they're not being observed.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: But the reality is that's not a great client experience.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think the beginning of all of this has to be what is brilliant for the clients.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: How do they want to be treated, listened to, understood?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: And and actually, interestingly, one thing that's freeing that up is AI as well.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, in your firm and a lot of firms, that ability for AI to do the listening, the recording, you know, the the synopsis of the back end of all of that is giving people this opportunity, this freedom to get deep into that client conversation and really focus on it.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, that's in a different relationship, right?
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because if I'm going through things superficially with you, you feel that I'm just asking a bunch of questions because it's my process.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: But if I'm really interested in Sam Oaks, the family, the life, why, when, how, all of that stuff, and then our work our job together is to make sure that happens.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, how do we do that?
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: Then you form a deeper partnership.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then the role becomes more enjoying.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's people have been taken off that curve, and when you see them get back onto it, it's revelatory for them and the client.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: Is it fear-induced, do you think?
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: Typically.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I do.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: What do you mean?
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_02: Fear of not being compliant.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, definitely.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: I can see that.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: There are some big firms as well that that in in respect of like an annual bonus, it is dependent upon that your compliance score as well, right?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so people are kind of almost being geared towards the quality of the advice that they are giving from a compliance perspective.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: But are they are they letting go of the actual relationship side and the um that can happen, yeah.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and again in the regulator, you know, because there is a temptation here to park all this at the sort of compliance and regulator's door to say that's what's happened as a result of.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: But actually, the regulator lays out some really clear stated principles.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if we always talk about what's the first thing you need to be able to prove, you know your client.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: So just stop for a second and say, does that mean you have to fill out a hard fact, fact, find?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay, we need some basic hard data, I get it.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: But actually truly knowing your client is right there at the center of the process.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, that that's a really important point, Sam.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think that one thing that is true is the work that we try and do in partnership with our clients makes compliance stronger.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not about making compliance something that is slightly deprioritised.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: Quite the opposite.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the focus is on the is on the client.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: And therefore, everything is stronger.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's stronger from a compliance point of view, it's stronger commercially point of view, it's stronger from a from a client CX point of view.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'll just pick that point up, so just briefly.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: Just one thing I'd say.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: So in our our heroisk and compliance, when we presented this programme to him, absolutely biggest beaming smile on his face to say this is because for again for him, culture first, get the culture right, and you know, that's not to say we won't be, you know, well, sure there's stuff we can do better, and from a compliance perspective, we work really hard on it.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: And he's, you know, Toby's brilliantly a really good team.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: But nonetheless, that cultural piece for him is once you say we are absolutely fixated on truly knowing our client and exactly helping them navigate what's a pretty complex set of rules and regs out there around what to how to live and enjoy their wealth now and in the future, you can just see a compliance person uh when you've got a board-level person saying that's the right thing.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's a you know, you you you again, I think you you start down the right track.
• 19:10
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• 19:17
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• 19:24
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• 20:07
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• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: Cool ask you as well.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_02: With the kind of buy and build model and the acquisition model, at what point do you actually start to look at the business you're buying to see if there is a cultural alignment as well?
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: Because that must be quite tricky.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: If you're spending all that time, energy and money in building culture within the business as a whole, um, how are you making sure that someone's coming into that business is either going to fit into that culture or you have like a replicable training programme, I guess, that educates them on how we do things, why we do things, and how it's going to improve your your day-to-day as a financial planner.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it's interesting because there is a lot of buy and build, as you say, a lot of MA activity, um, an awful lot of PE backed, of which we are, you know, we're PE backed by a um a really successful um PE business.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um but but I would say one of the challenges, I think, um, I do feel you know there are many, many, many good businesses, but to scale a firm nationally, one of the biggest challenges for me, which is one of the reasons why we're a regional firm and we are you know absolutely fixated on remaining, you know, we we have a sort of throwaway expression about being known, liked, and local.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and for us that's sincere in actually staying all wedded to your roots.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: So what you see through consolidation is scale up happening at real pace, because they've got a clock probably ticking with a two or three, four-year time horizon in mind, and and you try and repeat that to actually manage and bleed a culture nationally, I think is really, really tough.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: And firms that do that I have absolutely massive respect for in all sectors, not just our sector.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think if you can bleed a culture nationally, then that's really impressive.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: Really impressive.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: I just don't think it's very easy at all.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying I've got an easy job, but I think it's easier than doing it nationally.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say you do still check in the process, don't you?
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's important to your own.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well really important the D D effectively.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: Always, always, Chris.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: When you when you We hear people say, Yeah, culture fit's really important.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then you get into the dialogue and then you quickly, you know, some people's eyes are turned by the number.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: So so probably culture fit's not that important.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: So funny if when we talk about the advice um role and and the skill set and and and closing and and all the stuff we're gonna chat around today, but um for me it's the same when you're doing MA.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you do not have to buy every firm you meet.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: Don't do that.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's the first mistake.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm re we should be discerning.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: And by the way, if I was a seller, you absolutely should be discerning.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: I say to people all the time, if you're sincere, if it this business matters to you in the way you say it does, and your clients matter, then through this journey, do everything you can to really test the culture of where you're heading, whether it's us or not.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: Go meet the people, ask who's already sold previously.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: There will be things you won't like, go and have a look at them.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely, you've got to you've got to do your DD.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: So spend the time on that.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, at some point, we're gonna tell tell you what your business is worth.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: But it'll be within a range, right?
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: A pretty tight range normally.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, spend the time on the real cultural piece, and that's to point how we find we try to manage that as in in our MA.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: Love it.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: The advisor um advantage diagnostic tool that we put out on the podcast last episode, that was filled out by a few people who um who listened to the podcast episode.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: What did that teach you, Chris?
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: What did that um what did that diagnostic?
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: It was really interesting, actually, Sam.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, one of the things was um I'll share with you some of the data um and I think we may be able to share some of it with you know your viewers and listeners, but there was a really tight correlation actually in most areas between the respondents from your webcast, your podcast webinar, um, who came back and sort of gave us a profile through that diagnostic that's really similar to what we have seen across all our years of asking advisors, what do you do, how do you do it, etc.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so that was quite a tight correlation.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: There were a few areas though where it was distinctly different, right?
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought that was interesting.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it says something about your listener group, you know, maybe something you've driven in them, Sam, or not, because um one of the one of the things that we feel is important actually, and I know you do too, Mark, is really focusing on on client meetings and protecting time before and after.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: We often call it bookending, right?
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, protected time for preparation, both mental as well as physical, and then reflection actions follow up afterwards.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: Interestingly, your listeners, if we can call them that, and your viewers are 48% up on our industry averages Big Rock have seen in doing that.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe they're a more thoughtful, you know, reflective and and perhaps even professional group.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: But maybe that was an interesting people who listen to podcasts.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, maybe.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, maybe it might be a correlation, might there.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: One thing's one thing's for sure is that when again, if you just when you're when you're able, as I have been, to step step outside that process, the financial planning role, and just think about what does it look like to engage, your very best people.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: When we talked about modelling the behavior, your very best people do what you say.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: They actually do prep properly, they don't they're not rushing from one meeting to another.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely not.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and they're uh therefore I think they're more there's a word that I a phrase we use in our business about I think to be really successful in the financial planning role, and by the way, success for me is not the financial metric, but genuinely where you are helping people navigate and enjoy their wealth, right?
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's the definition for me.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: One of the definitions I would always point to.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: But I think one of the things you've got to be emotionally invested.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I think really good financial planners are emotionally invested in doing the right thing.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: And and therefore they invest that time in the way you're talking about.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: And and actually, maybe linked to that, Sam, the second biggest differential between your listeners and uh the average that we've seen was again a really big spike, 46% higher.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: On to what extent do you do you practice and look to involve and improve your sales techniques?
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought that was fascinating, those two things.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe it is, you know, why are they interested in the whole series that you put out there?
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: They want to develop, they want to improve.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_02: But that's actually backed up by the stats.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, love it.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that leads me into then what why sales such a dirty word within financial planning?
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it shouldn't be.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: What a great word.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: Interestingly, it's funny.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: I I might to sort of almost not not to change your question completely, but I'd say financial planning in the UK.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think what's interesting is globally, there is a it depends on which you know.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I think first of all, it starts with a very British culture.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think people who are successful in selling a service or proposition actually like being sold to, but they but most I think most um most people often have that terrible expression, we've all heard it.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, they're really good salesmen, they've got a they've they, she has got the gift of the gab.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, absolutely turns my perfectly because it it undermines completely.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I think professional selling, but I get less hung up today on the labelling.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: For me, it's the behaviour.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: So what it what is it, what are the behaviours that really successful salespeople do well?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: And um and I think once you really identify that, if you think about it in out in the context of financial planning, when you truly liberate people to enjoy their wealth, understand their wealth, know how to um enjoy it themselves, but also um to achieve their life goals and aspirations around creating financial security for them and their family, um, their philanthropic interests, for example, when you do that, if that means you've sold a service, then absolutely.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: But it is something, it is something that I think in the psyche of the Brits, there is something around trying to get away from the sales word.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: And and I therefore worry less about it now.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think at times I would I'd always try and win the argument around its professional selling.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but actually, I'm less concerned.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think it sometimes it's as simple as just don't use the sales word.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: There are people in our business I know would not would prefer not to see themselves.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very comfortable personally.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: People talk about my role, you're the CEO.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: So if you want to just call me the salesman, the head of the business, I'm cool with that.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really, really relaxed about that label.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: But I recognise it's not in the psyche of most Brits, I would say.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I think there's an easy element to that, isn't there, Sam?
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: We know in the past there's been some bad selling going on, some bad practices, you know, and of course, if if somebody is selling you something you don't need, that is the quantum opposite of what we should be about as an industry.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that has happened.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: We know it has.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think you know, where where we come at mentally from all of this though, is you have a professional duty of care to understand and then also motivate people to take action, right?
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: One of the biggest problems in our industry is I think sometimes even if they go and see a financial advisor, there there is sometimes an element of order taking, right?
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: I come and see you to review my pension suite and you do that, and I come away with a review of my pensions.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: But have you challenged me around protection?
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because that might be a bigger issue and it might be a more important issue.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, to me, this is not selling, this is that's why we talk about consultative, right?
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because if I'm gonna analyse you fully, holistically across the piece, of course I'll do what you're asking me to do, but it's my job to bring positive challenge to you in areas that you may not be focused on if I know and see those as being important, but then also motivate you to take action.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because the easiest thing to do is go, that's brilliant, Sam.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for the plan, leave it with me, I'll have a little think.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: And one thing we're trying to do is say, well, actually, that could be the worst bit of non-planning these people do.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: So you need to motivate clients to take action.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, love it.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think just sorry, Sam, on that point, the other thing I'd say as well.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: If you just want one, you know, with uh with Chris, the the survey, the research you've done, but just is there's some regulatory data, some research from the just plays back from the regulator around the RMAR returns.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think the latest numbers show that it was pretty consistent.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: Nine percent of UK adults taking financial planning advice.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, right.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: So are we selling much?
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: Clearly, not enough.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: No, right?
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's the reality.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: We're not reaching enough people to help them understand the value of advice.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so for me, therefore, in inwardly, you've got to take that responsibility and say you can't be sat in this sector thinking you're successful when 91% of UK adults are not engaged or taking advice.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: That can't be something we're proud of.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's a problem.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: There's a that's a an industry problem.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: And and um, you know, and I think a bigger conversation, but you know, part of our business.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it starts everything from the financial education piece, familiarising people with money and wealth early on, explain what stuff is before they even get to financial planning.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, another subject entirely, Sam.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, but I think yeah, the the the 9% piece is always in the back of my head.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: Are we saying it's behaviors based then?
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: So people within the financial planning business, maybe they're not delivering to the best of their ability as a financial planner, they're not doing the right things.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_02: Is it all driven around behaviors?
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: And are these behaviors you can change?
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: Is this what we're saying?
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think I think there's an interconnection here, isn't there?
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: We've talked already about motivation.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things we're we're very focused on as a business is getting into the psychology of all of this, both sides.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: So the client's psychology, what they're looking for, what they need from that interaction to generate trust, to generate that depth of understanding and connectivity, but also what's happening psychologically on the on the planner side, you know, because it's very true, Sam, that you do see some people who've got into a kind of a rhythm of doing it a certain way.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: And behaviorally, often that's where there's an opportunity gap, but it's got to go with the mindset.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why that example earlier was a great one.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: Super successful advisor, yeah, who who still had that mindset of I may be knocking it out of the park in terms of success, but I still can improve.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: And he did.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think one of the things we need to do, and this is why the collaboration with our clients that we work with and and the leaders of those businesses like Mark is so important because if you're not making it clear that this matters, if it kind of comes across as let's do a bit of training and see if we enjoy it, yeah, you don't change behaviors.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: No, and and it's kind of a beliefs, behaviors, results interconnection.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: If you get the belief set right and then show and explore and get really clear on the behaviours that succeed, then people apply those things and then the results start to flow as well.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: And they love it and it's self-validating and it confirms for them that this is the way to operate.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: I think what would be good right now, actually, is to kind of give a an overview of how you two have worked together over the last 12 months.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_02: So if anybody's listening to this right now and they want to implement the same sort of training and development, do you do could you sort of take us through how you have worked together over the last 12 months?
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: So, what does it typically look like to work with um Big Rock and Chris and the team that come in and start to work with your advisors?
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and what part do you play in that as well?
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_02: That's another thing, you know, you touched on it.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: You need somebody in a leadership role as well within the business that's going to hammer this home and take over and be passionate about what is rocking.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: Can I quickly begin on that actually?
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because this is really unusual for Big Rock because I saw Mark and sort of heard him talk.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: So we're part of the same same private equity group as Parminium, the investment platform DFM.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I was at one of their conferences, uh Let's Grow Conference, and he was on stage.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and I was sat in the audience at that moment in time, and I was looking uh and listening as he talked just passionately about culture and behaviours and you know how that can change businesses.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: And it was one of those moments where I thought, I'm gonna have to grab him and have a beer and have a chat, because that guy is kind of talking our language, so it was quite unusual.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: Often we get referred in you know, people that that sort of recommend us.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: But this was one of those instances of having to sort of grab that that individual.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: So the very beginning was, you know, actually me wanting to talk to you about what you were talking to conference about.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, funny, because um, I guess we all suffer from imposter syndrome at times.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm very mindful of that coming into this role, Sam three, three and bit years ago, whatever now.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: But I I I could hardly sit there and say, I can tell you how to be a better financial planner in terms of the financial planner, because I've never done it right, so that's not my domain.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think I think it is a genuine, I'll come back to that word privilege, but there is a position that you have when you're the Chief of Sec, is um when you come in, you have the you have the authority, day one, to genuinely review the way you go about doing things.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um and if you start with the person who pays the fees, the clients, and truly understand what they like about it, what they don't like about how they engage, and then even look at some of the painful stuff.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: When you have people leave, your clients will leave.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we've had clients leave like every business.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um we we have a you know we do have genuinely a very high retention rate, but we lose people.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: And speaking to them actually, and why they've left just to get the feedback, it it really helps shape my thinking early on that what what we are what we were typical of, and I'd seen it in my consulting role prior as well, even the really good businesses I've worked with, is that you're not spending, you're not seeing enough time spent on the the things that matter most to clients around that advice journey, the advice and planning conversations.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, there's always the financial metrics.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: If my CFO was here today, he'd be talking about you know productivity and greater wallet share and you know, eBit DAR growth and result and all that good stuff.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, they're interlinked.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: They are absolutely right.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: But but if you start from the behaviours pieces, Chris references, truly get inside what is it you can do.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I think when we first met, I think it the the role, there's lots of lots of parts to a CEO role, and we all do it differently.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: And there are some really good CEOs I've met in this business, and it's you know, and um I'll shout names out another time, maybe, but you know, really good people I'd really rate.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think um you pick a bit from each of them, and then you might sort of look at things that perhaps they don't do that.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: You think, oh, I would do that differently.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's hopefully what we do.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I think that that um well when I spoke at that particular event that you're talking about, Chris.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think for me is and we was I was there with two other um really good people on the stage and we're chatting about, and I think I again I was I was able to sort of perhaps bring a slightly different perspective because I genuinely believe, I think it comes from a position of belief you've got to sponsor it from top down.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: We can we talked on touched on earlier, it's not about HR learning development functions being the sponsor bottom-up, and they're not bottom up because they're very senior in our business, but nonetheless, it needs for me to be led by the board and and therefore the board first and then your senior leadership team.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: So it's no good me just saying yes, it's from what I believe.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: You've then got to look at your people who run their parts of the business for you and say they need to be on this journey, yeah.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then you need to work out so is your head of advice in our case and is our head of advice truly absolutely wedded to upskilling his people such that they are more meaningful, more relevant, and delivering better outcome for clients.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: Unless he's truly behind that, then he can't be involved in this program and wouldn't be right for our culture.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I think you it it starts, I think has to start at the top, but you need to have a group of people around you.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um and perhaps just my preference, it's a personal preference.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: Most of the senior people in my business, not all, but most have been homegrown in the last three and a bit years.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: I've been there.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: We've promoted from within predominantly.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: We've brought in a couple of very senior people for specific functions, um, but an awful lot's homegrown.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then again, it get you get that chance to shape them.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, yeah, I think that's what we've been doing.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: So, to your question, Sam, I think after the you know, the early interactions, Mark talked already about yeah, actually genuinely being consultative.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: So the program itself began, didn't it, with actually something we would call a discovery phase.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and we're effectively doing that diagnostic on the business.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, seeking to understand them more deeply.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: We we conducted a number of interviews.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: We we wanted to kind of see a normal distribution curve of the of the planners and advisors in Mark's business.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: So we were kind of interviewing people who are top performers, average performers, maybe even those who are struggling a little bit, and trying to see what is being done internally within the organization at the moment.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that's that's a fascinating part of the process because a little bit like the advisor advantage diagnostic, you're then going, okay, well, where are you weak?
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: Where are you strong?
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: What's the opportunity gap?
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: And although we knew we wanted a program that was end-to-end advice process driven, you're able then to focus it on the particular parts of that where there's the greatest need.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: So that was really important, that early discovery diagnostic and then design, you know, before we eventually sort of created a program that we took to the business and and literally spent a day down in your head office signing off, you know, with Mark and other leaders of his, going, brilliant.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we love that model and we love that approach, but can we tweak that one?
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: So it was a truly co-shaped in that way.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: How often is the training then?
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: So we did a program of training that was rolled out over a period of months, okay?
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: So we began with something that we kind of called a mission ignition.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: So we designed uh a kind of an event, like it was done uh both live and via Teams, where Mark was talking to the business, okay, and then introducing Big Rock, going, right, here's what we're doing, here's why we're doing it.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: Some of you have already been involved in contributing into the design and creation of this.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: Here's Big Rock, here's why we've chosen them, this is what it's gonna do for you.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: But but importantly, this is what we need from you.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you're gonna come along, right, we'd love you to come along, but come along open, yeah, right, and wanting to learn and wanting to share.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: And that that really mattered, I think.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: It kind of set the tone quite well.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think not making it compulsory was really important as well, because you've got to say to people, look, you know, this is um well, the first thing we come back to earlier we talked about, but the the even the even in the labelling of the program, we called it the consultative advice skills program because we deliberately took the CAS label and tweaked it, and basically said, Well, there's competent advisor status you're all used to.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we're gonna re-badge it now.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's now gonna be consultative advice skills.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that was really for us, we just put it play on words, just to get people to reframe the way they think about um their uh their own personal development, not just being through exams and qualifications and and that being the only moniker they look through.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um for me, the important piece is that they recognise the skills piece.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: So we did that first, and then I think the thing that when we started to land it and we did mission recognition and got it going, I think the thing that seemed to resonate with people quite quickly, and it was I was genuinely in I found it really uplifting when I looked around a number of people that are really open for the development.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I had a couple of people who've spoken to me at quite some length, some of our more senior financial planners actually.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, as a a uh we got a South African financial planner in our business, so I'm referencing and thinking about at this particular point.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: Really, really nice individual, lovely, very skilled.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, him talking to me privately afterwards, saying, This is this this extends beyond my job.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: This soft skill stuff that I'm building actually is about relationship management, really helping me be more effective in relationship management, and has subsequently said to me, helpful at home, helpful in B2B conversations where he's got professional services firms he works with.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's that's the point.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: Is when you truly take ownership of it, it it rounds you out and helps you be better in all ways in many regards.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_01: Wonderful, multiple vendors, isn't it?
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_02: How about from an sort of energy perspective?
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: Do the advisors feel like they've got more energy?
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_02: Do you do you feel more energy within your business?
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_02: Are they enthused?
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, more definitely, because they're spending more time doing what they A, they're really good at, and B, they enjoy doing.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: Now, not many advisors that I meet would say, I'd really like to do some more administration.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there will be some, of course.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: I know it's a very obvious throwaway line, but but but the reality is, while some of them are highly competent at admin, the reality is they really like the client work.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they enjoy the client work, yeah, you know, and actually trying to find new as well as, and we'll touch on you know referrals and all that good stuff, I'm sure.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: But the reality is when it's done really well, that stuff is a self-fulfilling prof prophecy for me.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: You you generate referral by being really effective in front of people because they like the experience and the financial planners are no different when they're enjoying it.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_02: The advisor advantage test, there was something that came up on it which I really, really thought was interesting, which was um it showed us that 70% opportunity gap in the confidence when closing.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_02: And a hundred and thirty-seven point fifty percent gap in structured objection handling.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_02: Again, two words you're synonymous with sales, right?
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_02: Talk to me about that then.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_02: So the confidence when closing, we're saying 70% opportunity gap.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_02: So we're saying that financial planners are not closing like they should and they're leaving business on the table.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_02: You'll recognize that.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_02: What are you doing about that then?
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_02: How how what do you what do you implement?
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_02: What what what changes then?
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: So so I think this is absolutely central to the whole thing here, really, Sam.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: So so that element around closing, you know, an effective close.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: If you think back into the 1980s, that you and I can both remember, you could get books on 50 ways to close a deal, right?
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, here's this close, that close, the other close.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: The most effective close with a client is are you happy to go ahead?
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because prior to that, I have done a first-class job of understanding you, your goals, your aspirations, the gaps, the challenges, the needs.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: Why would you take action?
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: And what happens if you don't?
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: So what we do and what we've done with with Pembroke and other clients is give advisors that process of understanding, getting into the need area, defining the shortfall, and then probably most importantly, Sam, talking about what are the implications of taking action or not taking action.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: That then becomes the reason for the client to act.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: And what we do is we give them a process that enables them when they're presenting solutions to give a playback of everything I've heard and understood about you.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then here's what you were looking to achieve, here was the shortfall, here are the implications of not doing it.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: So here's what I'm recommending.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: Here's how it works, and these are the benefits to you of taking that action.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: We use a little acronym that your people loved actually.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: We call it UCAL, okay, UCOW, because it just stands for use clients' own words.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: And when I'm playing back to you, you know, you said to me, Sam, if I don't do this, the following's not going to happen in my retirement.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_00: If those are your words and I'm playing it back to you, then it resonates.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: And ultimately, when I've done a great job like that, all I need to go is look, if that's doing everything you want, are you happy to go ahead?
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the close.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's like recapping the objective, isn't it?
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_02: Why you're down here in front of me today.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_02: So what do you want Want to achieve in your life, what are your goals?
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_02: What do you need to do?
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_02: How much things you can do when you want to retire?
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_02: Strictly, and you said this, we've we've we've we've planned this.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_02: You've said this, we've planned this.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_02: So it's just because it's just like all the things that you wanted me to do for you, you're taking off.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_02: Precisely.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think you're also you're transferring the ownership as well, responsibility.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think what happens is people think it's their responsibility to close situations.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think reality is when you really if you take if if you're genuinely invested in the clients achieving their outcome we want and having this clarity and having this level of confidence themselves in their plan, at some point, psychologically, it shifts from being a financial planner led trying to close it to the client actually saying, you know, that's why I want that's can I do that?
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the subtle piece for us.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: And if and if people don't uh if if as in if they're not um I don't think that traditional, I think this is the problem with this language, this this the old version of or the old definition of selling.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's there's lots of these um uh labels used to describe the sales process, closing, for example, objection handle we talk about.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the reality is once the if you are very consultative in delivering your advice, the reality is it's very soft the close, really soft, because people to the client are taking ownership of that program.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: They should be there already.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: They are really, yeah.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean that's the reality.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: And if they don't buy into you as an individual, and that's a separate point.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: And that and the thing for us, we I have a genuine belief, and again, this is perhaps flies in the face of perhaps some of the traditional thinking in selling.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I would say that you know, three out of five people you meet, you should look to want to work with.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: But you should absolutely be ready to say no to two out of five.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_03: If they're not right for you.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, if they're not right, just don't worry about it.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas I think that traditional sales mentality was I have to close every deal.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_01: No, you don't, actually.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_01: You definitely do not.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: Work with people who value what you do, make sure you are at your very best, so you're adding as much value as you can, and absolutely the soft the close becomes very soft.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_02: So we all said 137% in objection handling.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_02: What does that tell us then?
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think uh again, linked to what we've just been saying, that you know, objection handling has historically been seen as a way of trying to get over that objection and you know deal with it and kind of uh suppress it almost, you know, batter it down.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: We we just look at a very simple model for objection handling.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's you know, it's not new or unique, but it's the laypack process.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: Listen, acknowledge, probe, answer, and then confirm.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: And and the interesting bit in all of that, Sam, is that we we try and help people see that if there's an objection that arises, it's probably because of something you, as the planner advisor, have not done.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: Or have not listened to it.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_00: Or has not landed, you haven't explained it properly enough, right?
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_00: So actually, when you start to realize that, hang on a minute, if I've done the perfect job, there is no reason you'd object.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: So so actually, an objection is probably a reflection or maybe something I've missed.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_00: It flips the psychology, and people then just go into probe mode, questioning, you know, what is it I've missed?
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: Help me understand, then I can help you maybe see where where the truth actually lies in this.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a subtle difference, but it it's really, really powerful.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, I love that.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I just want to know as well, like if a firm is listening to this now, they want to implement training with Big Rock to work on soft skills, practical skills, yeah, you know, behaviors.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_02: How is it how do they measure that?
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_02: How do they measure the success?
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_02: So you know, from the very beginning of someone coming in to then you know, 12 months down the line, how do you measure success in this type of training?
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'd love to hear what your views on that are, and also what your views on that from actually having that in your business.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_02: Let me start with you, Chris.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of course.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I I think that if you look at the impact of any training and development that is done, it has to have a net lasting effect.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_00: So one thing we're really passionate about is, you know, kind of in some ways I almost don't like the word training because it feels like a day, an event.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, this is about culture, it is about changing embedded behaviors and habits, right?
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I love the fact, Sam, you're talking about behavioral change because that's what we're into here.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: So one of the first things for us has to be there's old models of evaluation, Kirkpatrick models of evaluation.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_00: One of the first things has to be that people buy into it, right?
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because if they go through an experience and they think, well, that doesn't really resonate for me, doesn't connect, doesn't talk my language, then you've lost before you go any further.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_00: So kind of level one of measuring success is responses.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why it does matter that Marx people are turning around going, we love that, you know, they get it, they understood us, I can apply that because that that's kind of point number one.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_00: Beyond that, though, it then has to be applied.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: And and this is actually where we're at in some ways between the two firms now is talking about well, how do we support Marx leaders and managers to lead and manage and coach?
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because Big Rock can't be in there every day of the week.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_00: You wouldn't want us in there every day of the week.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: So making sure that the internal leadership and management is coaching the skills, embedding the skills, driving the habit change is a crucial next part of all of this.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that that's an important aspect.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_00: I know it's not answering your question about the measures, but then the measures ultimately come in.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: Are people more often doing the right thing in those client interactions?
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_00: And ultimately, are we therefore driving two things that that really matter?
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: Greater client trust and loyalty in our people and to our business and our brand.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then off the back of that, you know, uh more success commercially, okay, as well as for that client.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think Chris, there will be some measures that are too early at the moment to tell all of these, but the sorts of things we are already um you know beginning to measure.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so there is a feel-good piece, first off, right?
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_01: So you just start to just can you measure the energy level around the buzz around people?
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's very soft around how they're enjoying their job.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a very subtle early sign that actually people are really engaged in the learning and actually wanting to do it differently.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_01: But the obvious measures come through around productivity increase.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got to start to see financial planners more comfortable with recognizing they're delivering more advice more often.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the first piece.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think the other thing that's really important is you get two, two, everyone will point to hopefully greater client retention.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_01: So when you look again, if you look at the um if you look at the industry numbers, I think broadly speaking, the number of clients served by our sector has been flat for three years.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: So we're not growing the number of clients.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_01: So can you genuinely demonstrate organic growth in your business?
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_01: And organic growth for me becomes because you're able to grow um a greater number of clients because the service you're broadly delivering is exceptional and is valued such that people will want to refer you on.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: So organic growth will be a measure, um, client retention will be a measure, but also so will advisor retention.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, once you get if we think that you're going to retain people by just paying them more salary or more bonus, and to your point about putting some form of, you know, um, we have a uh um a particular firm we know that are throwing big bonuses around just saying just come and do your compliance and you'll get a bonus.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_01: And and and the bit that's missing for me is it's a money-led conversation.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: Now, our financial planners own well, but I I would say they're not staying with us just for the money.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the thing for me is that I think genuinely we have we are we're early, but we have a culture already building in our business where I think people are wanting to stay because they know they're getting better at this role.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: Our job, our responsibility, and our risk in a way, Sam, is we've got to ensure that continues.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because that's how we'll continue to attract some of the talent that we've attracted into our business in the last three years.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_01: You asked a question earlier on about you know success already.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, one of the measures already is when I'm hearing someone who we've taken from a say a competitor um in the in the area has come and joined us, and then you've seen one or two of their really, really skilled colleagues saying, Oh, I've come, I've come too.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason I've come is because they say it's a really nice culture here, and actually you empower people to get on with the job.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's not micromanaged, but actually it's a real learning culture here.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that and genuinely I've got people who've done that.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the last two female advisors who've joined us would literally be able to talk in that way.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's one of the measures for me.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_02: What you're hitting there is a talent attraction tool as well.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_02: So a byproduct of this is a talent attraction tool.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_02: It really is.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's exactly what the financial planner life's about.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the idea of the financial planner life is to share the stories of those that work within the financial planning profession.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_02: Ultimately, our North Star is to attract more people to the profession, but it also helps individual firms attract talent to their business.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_02: Because I genuinely believe the people who are in the business who are successful and love it and enjoy it, that's the most amazing talent attraction tool you'll ever have.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_02: You know, when someone tells you what they're doing and why they like working there, it's as simple as that.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's that's a lovely byproduct.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's the experience that somebody goes through when they're in that business.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_02: What experience is the client getting off the tail end?
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_02: Because it could be an amazing experience for the advisor, it could be a terrible experience for the client.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_02: And that travels fast as well.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_02: So are you making are you making the experience easier for the advisor?
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_02: Is it enjoyable for them and the client?
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_02: And if it is, well, we're gonna be happier.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_02: More freedom.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's why these things are so interlinked, Sam, is so much more than just this.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_01: So the L and D culture will be talking about L and D and it's you know, it's uh inextricably linked to the uh the culture, but there's it's wider than that.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's around even how do you present your business?
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, think about the the way the business has presents its brand, what do you want to be known for?
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_01: What are you famous for?
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, what are you really you know about?
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: So and that's why you know that's another aspect of it.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_01: So you and then there's the piece around to your point, how do you attract talent in?
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, from the uh um peer group, but how about from um non-industry?
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_01: So one of our um recruits we took in was in been in recruitment space for some time and come across to Well World after having 20 years of very successful in recruitment come across to World World.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_01: Real passion for financial planning early in it.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then I think about the next leg in the journey for us as a business is to be able to take this to as we are already started now, is to take financial education and the subject of financial planning into schools and colleges.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_01: How do you start to really excite people about how this role of financial planning truly liberates a you know, I I would say a very high level and very soft and non-P language entirely now, but there's a real ready back, ready back uh glow moment around when you when you when you change people's lives through really, you know, watching people say, Wow, I can actually retire three years earlier.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I hit I see these stories, I've never done that job, right?
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_01: We talked about earlier, but when you see financial planners get really passionate about what this is allowing them to enable their clients to live a better life, yeah, attracting people in to understand that's what this job actually is, the financial planning role is.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, positive impact.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_01: Real but massive.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_02: I think it has a hugely positive impact.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's a well-being proposition without a shadow of a doubt in any needs to be shattered from the rooftops.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, it's heavily purpose-driven, heavily people-driven.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_02: AI is coming in, AI is gonna reduce the amount of work that you're gonna need to do within your financial planning business.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_02: So the the really the financial planners that are gonna be super successful are the ones that can build strong relationships.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, totally.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_02: Can educate people and can step outside of the, you know, the the confines, if you like, of this, oh god, I've got to get that in by this, and that paraffound's got to do that, the administrator's got to do that, compliance is gonna do this.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you're gonna sit there, have conversations with clients, everything is gonna be recorded, and by the time that's that's recorded and got into the system, it's already gone through a compliance system to come back and say, here's some of the worrying elements.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_02: You don't have to worry about that.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_02: You've just got to worry about the relationship you're building and how much they like you and how much they like working with you.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_00: But but arguably it's more almost existential than that, isn't it?
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, because one thing we all know about AI is that it's just getting better and better every single day, right?
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_00: Every single day.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_00: So at the moment, you know, the thing that AI can't do as well, um, although even that may change over time, but it is this piece we're talking about, it is that diving into the person, their goals, their plans, their aspirations.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_00: If you're not doing that bit superbly well, yeah, then you can get outperformed by Claude.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, can't you?
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, if all you're doing is just going functionally, you should move your money from here to here.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to bring that bit, and that bit's got to be superb.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's what I believe as well that most companies now in professional services are going to be media brands within their own right, because you have to be articulating to your clients, to your target audience all the time what you're doing and the value that you're adding.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_02: How you're adding value, yeah, absolutely.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, they want to see people.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_01: But then yeah, the thing Sam, I'd say as well as that, the thing you're you're also right, you talked about the well-being piece as well.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really interesting for me.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think we we live in an industry, a professional industry, that has for some time been feature rich.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_01: But it will always describe the technical feature of something.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_01: It does this, it does this, or whatever.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, never about the benefits piece ever.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_01: And to your point, people are genuinely, you know, that that living well piece for us.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, when I think about the brand and the DNA of our brand, as we we are we're we're literally going through a pretty significant piece of work at the moment to make sure we reposition and pivot our brand in a way that talks to what it is we actually do.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_01: And you're you know that that for us, living well is the sort of driver to that.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, how do you help people live well?
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I think um, you know, once we go live with a new brand, we're we are bringing that.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_01: You're it that's why these things aren't in silo.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_01: No, it all hang to link, they're hanging together.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the strategy piece is start from the end client.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, go and go understand them.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_02: What do they value?
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_02: Fantastic.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_02: Well, listen, it it's definitely not a transactional process, training and development, especially around behavioural change, habit changing, positive impacts for the clients, right?
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's gonna take time to make those changes.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_02: So that's one thing I've definitely taken from this type of training.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_02: If you're listening to this and you're thinking one training session in one day is gonna change your business, it's not.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's it changed through the leadership within the business, buying into and wanting to change the behaviours and change the way advisors service their clients.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_02: That's one of the most important things we're getting here.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_02: So if anyone's listening to this episode now and they're really interested in bringing in that training and development via Big Rock, you know, just reach out to Chris directly.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_02: We've got the advisor diagnostic tool.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_02: So if you want to check it up against the industry standard, you can do that.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_02: So that's a hyperlink in in the um in the notes section.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um and just thanks very much for coming along as well and sharing your experience you've had at Big Rock because it's sort of one and good when people come on and talk about their their services, but when you have someone actually come on who's used it, who's seeing the benefit in it, yeah, it's just a bit more powerful.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I think um, you know, I've got to know Chris incredibly well now and the work they're doing here at Big Rock, and I just think you know, one of financial planning's best kept secrets, and I think we're entering into a period where those soft skills, those practical skills, if you don't have them as a business, you could die.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_02: You could really, really die because it really is those skills that are going to separate you from everybody else in this new world.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_02: I think.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, great.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_02: Brilliant.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_02: Well, gentlemen, thank you so much for your time today.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Sam.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Sam.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for coming on the financial planner life.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_02: Pleasure, thank you very much.