Latest / Heaven & Healing Podcast / Why Controlling People Think They’re the Victim | Ryan LeStrange

Transcript

Why Controlling People Think They’re the Victim | Ryan LeStrange · Heaven & Healing Podcast

• 0:00
  One of the most safe feeling places for
• 0:01
  a rejected person is a place of control.
• 0:04
  Beneath those walls, there is a person
• 0:06
  that feels very fragile. They've learn
• 0:08
  to control their feeling of fragility by
• 0:11
  controlling everything around them.
• 0:13
  You're at a time of crisis. There's a
• 0:14
  need. There's an issue. They seem to be
• 0:16
  the answer to the thing. When you dig a
• 0:18
  little bit deeper behind it, there's a
• 0:19
  motive. I'm going to use your emotions
• 0:22
  to leverage an outcome that suits me and
• 0:25
  not necessarily you. Jezebel is a spirit
• 0:27
  of witchcraft that operates by trying to
• 0:30
  displace people that God has established
• 0:33
  in authority and replace them with
• 0:35
  somebody that God has not established.
• 0:37
  It's an unseeding spirit. I want to
• 0:39
  unseat godly authority so that I can
• 0:42
  divide and conquer. It wants to seduce
• 0:44
  prophets because it wants to pollute the
• 0:46
  prophetic. It's terrified of pure
• 0:48
  prophetic because pure prophetic is
• 0:49
  going to crush its altars. It's going to
• 0:51
  decapitate its operation and it's going
• 0:53
  to exalt Jesus. This is an antichrist,
• 0:55
  anti-Jesus spirit. I went through a
• 0:57
  crisis in ministry. A church split
• 0:59
  collapsed. It tried to destroy me and it
• 1:02
  was through somebody I deeply trusted.
• 1:03
  When you put the boundary up, it's
• 1:05
  always met with intense resistance. I
• 1:07
  see the way that spirit had trained me
• 1:09
  in my marriage, in my friendships, the
• 1:12
  way that I look in the mirror. It's one
• 1:13
  thing to discern this in other people,
• 1:15
  but it's a completely different thing to
• 1:16
  discern it in yourself.
• 1:18
  >> The storm is not brewing externally,
• 1:20
  it's brewing [music] internally. You're
• 1:21
  in a state of volatility all the time.
• 1:23
  We literally cast out the spirit which
• 1:26
  is occupying the house of the body, but
• 1:28
  the mind still contains the conduct
• 1:30
  code.
• 1:32
  >> Hey everyone, welcome back. I'm so
• 1:34
  excited to welcome Apostle Ryan Lrange
• 1:36
  to the show today. Um, man, there's so
• 1:39
  many things that you do. You're you're
• 1:41
  an author, you're a prophet, like you do
• 1:43
  all of the things. Can you give kind of
• 1:44
  a resume of
• 1:45
  >> Oh, man. [laughter] The resume. Okay.
• 1:47
  Well, currently I lead a local
• 1:49
  congregation outside of Atlanta called
• 1:50
  ATL Hub Church. That's been the last I
• 1:53
  think five years now. Um, as you said,
• 1:55
  I'm an author. Uh, I have a song
• 1:57
  network, which basically means we're
• 1:59
  overseeing partnering ministries around
• 2:00
  the world. I love to do a lot of online
• 2:03
  courses and training as well as digital
• 2:05
  media. That's probably one of my big
• 2:07
  passions. And then in my free time, I do
• 2:09
  a little bit of investing in business on
• 2:11
  the side, too. So, that that's my
• 2:12
  resume. I've been blessed to be
• 2:14
  full-time in ministry just over 31
• 2:16
  years. uh meaning that essentially
• 2:18
  that's been the period of time
• 2:20
  vocationally I was super involved in
• 2:22
  ministry. It started running a Bible
• 2:24
  college and then on through different
• 2:26
  seasons of life and ministry from there.
• 2:28
  >> Wow. Yeah. It's a lot of things to do
• 2:30
  but it's all super needed especially in
• 2:32
  this day and age. Um and I know a lot of
• 2:34
  people personally that you have poured
• 2:37
  into or inadvertently poured into just
• 2:40
  through kind of the you know spiritual
• 2:43
  family tree sort of thing. And so just
• 2:45
  want to honor you for the work that you
• 2:47
  do and continue to do
• 2:48
  >> and the books that you write. So I want
• 2:51
  to talk a little bit about this book
• 2:52
  today, Exposing Emotional Manipulation.
• 2:55
  I breeze through this in two days. It's
• 2:57
  so good. Yeah, I love to read. But it's
• 3:00
  a really really really great book and I
• 3:02
  do want to talk about it. How many books
• 3:03
  have you authored?
• 3:04
  >> I was hoping you would not ask me that
• 3:06
  because I should know that. Uh I think
• 3:08
  if you include like ebooks cuz I've done
• 3:11
  a ton of ebooks. I'm well uh over 40. I
• 3:14
  just don't remember on 45 or where I'm
• 3:16
  at in that range.
• 3:18
  >> That's incredible actually cuz I'm I I
• 3:20
  love writing and I just
• 3:22
  >> I do too. You know, I always say that
• 3:23
  what you write will outlive what you
• 3:25
  say. And when I came into writing, I
• 3:27
  never imagined being a writer per se. I
• 3:30
  always knew I was a communicator but not
• 3:32
  necessarily a writer. But I think my
• 3:34
  passion for writing has come from the
• 3:36
  fact you can impact so many more people.
• 3:38
  You can equip so many more people. And
• 3:40
  there's an art to it, which there is
• 3:42
  speaking as well, but writing is a
• 3:44
  completely different art.
• 3:45
  >> Yeah, it's actually the opposite for me.
• 3:46
  So, I've always known I would be a
• 3:48
  writer. This this stuff
• 3:50
  >> never never thought in a thousand years
• 3:52
  that I would be sitting in front of a
• 3:53
  camera talking at people. But
• 3:55
  >> anyway, um can you tell a little bit
• 3:57
  just for anyone that's not familiar with
• 3:59
  you a little bit about how you came to
• 4:00
  know the Lord?
• 4:02
  >> Yes, I would love to. So, I was raised
• 4:04
  in um I would say a non-Christian home
• 4:07
  and I'll give context. basically uh my
• 4:10
  mother and my father didn't go to
• 4:11
  church. I never heard the gospel of
• 4:13
  Jesus Christ. Um there was a lot of
• 4:16
  abuse and addiction in my home. My mom
• 4:18
  and dad split which I as I was probably
• 4:21
  I was in elementary school. I was happy
• 4:23
  about that because there was a lot of
• 4:25
  abuse on my dad's side of things and it
• 4:28
  was very traumatic. Uh my mom became uh
• 4:31
  very mired in alcoholism and so uh my
• 4:35
  only exposure to anything that looked
• 4:37
  like God was maybe a once to twice a
• 4:40
  year trip to the Catholic church because
• 4:42
  that was my family's background on my
• 4:44
  mom's side. Uh I then had an uncle that
• 4:47
  in my teens got radically saved. So he
• 4:50
  was an addict and suddenly completely
• 4:53
  transformed. uh he was sort of a pseudo
• 4:56
  father figure because my dad was absent
• 4:59
  so he was like you know taking me places
• 5:01
  uh showing me things he had a business
• 5:03
  he was very successful and he started
• 5:05
  taking me to church and so what is
• 5:08
  common place for a lot of people was
• 5:10
  totally brand new to me and I never
• 5:11
  heard the gospel ever and in seventh
• 5:14
  grade I prayed a prayer to ask Jesus
• 5:16
  into my heart went back to my house
• 5:19
  where there was no awareness of
• 5:21
  Christianity and we lived several hours
• 5:22
  away from my uncle and tried to be saved
• 5:25
  for a few weeks and then just completely
• 5:26
  descended back into the world. Um, at
• 5:29
  16, I actually ended up getting
• 5:31
  arrested. Uh, I was shoplifting with
• 5:33
  some friends. Um, anything that was
• 5:37
  dark, I was interested in trying it. Um,
• 5:40
  you know, I had friends in witchcraft, I
• 5:42
  had friends in self-hypnosis, addiction,
• 5:44
  whatever. And so, we were just doing,
• 5:46
  you know, whatever we could find to do.
• 5:48
  And I got arrested, went to juvenile
• 5:50
  hall for the weekend because it happened
• 5:51
  on a Friday. And I lied to the officers,
• 5:54
  which at the time seemed like the worst
• 5:55
  thing in the world because it meant they
• 5:57
  were harsher on me and put me in for the
• 5:59
  weekend. But in that time period, a
• 6:02
  preacher came. And when the preacher
• 6:04
  came, he preached to me what I heard in
• 6:06
  the seventh grade. And that that
• 6:09
  weekend, I said, "Lord, I'm going to
• 6:11
  serve you." And I really dedicate my
• 6:12
  life to him. And so from that, my whole
• 6:15
  life pivoted. And my mom, by the way,
• 6:17
  got radically saved as well. Um, when I
• 6:20
  went to Bible college, which was at 17,
• 6:22
  my mom actually also went to Bible
• 6:24
  college and has preached and ministered
• 6:26
  and went from like, you know, wake up in
• 6:28
  the morning heavy drinking every day to
• 6:31
  zero, none at all. My father passed away
• 6:34
  a few years ago and uh I think it was in
• 6:37
  2020 during the pandemic and he texted
• 6:40
  me from the hospital. He was on a
• 6:41
  ventilator and basically, you know,
• 6:43
  poured his heart out via text and I was
• 6:45
  able to say, "You know what? all is well
• 6:47
  and Jesus loves you. Ask him into your
• 6:49
  heart and you are forgiven. And so God
• 6:52
  brought it full full circle. But I
• 6:54
  didn't, you know, probably like a lot of
• 6:56
  your story, I wasn't raised in church.
• 6:57
  So it's been a very interesting journey
• 6:59
  being in church, spending now decades in
• 7:02
  working in ministry and dealing with all
• 7:04
  the peculiarities of that that are so
• 7:06
  unfamiliar when you've come from just
• 7:08
  complete darkness.
• 7:09
  >> Yeah, 100%. And now that's like that's
• 7:12
  what you've dedicated yourself to is
• 7:14
  making sure that other people are
• 7:15
  equipped and actually being trained up
• 7:17
  within those spaces and have a place to
• 7:19
  call home.
• 7:20
  >> So I'm I'm curious um because you've
• 7:23
  been I mean you just you just gave it
• 7:25
  away. You've been in ministry for over
• 7:26
  30 years. That's a that's a really long
• 7:28
  time. And so there's a lot of wisdom
• 7:31
  there. There's um just just something to
• 7:34
  glean from with how seasoned you are.
• 7:36
  And so I'm curious kind of in like your
• 7:39
  younger days when when you first
• 7:41
  [snorts] because I'm only about 5 years
• 7:42
  in. Okay.
• 7:43
  >> So when you first realized that you you
• 7:48
  had a gift of prophecy like how did you
• 7:50
  get into understanding the gifts of the
• 7:53
  Holy Spirit and um what your call was
• 7:57
  like your not just the great commission
• 7:58
  but your particular assignment with the
• 8:00
  Lord.
• 8:01
  >> It's that I love that question. So I
• 8:03
  would say before Christ, I was drawn to
• 8:07
  supernatural. So it was like I had
• 8:10
  friends that were in dark supernatural
• 8:12
  spaces and I was drawn into those
• 8:14
  spaces. Okay?
• 8:15
  >> Because I I was experiencing the realm
• 8:18
  of the spirit
• 8:19
  >> but not through Christ. Right?
• 8:21
  >> And so I was having dreams but it was
• 8:24
  dark dreams, nightmarish dreams. I was
• 8:26
  feeling things, encountering things um
• 8:28
  not knowing this was the spirit realm in
• 8:30
  the spirit world. So when I got saved,
• 8:32
  that activity continued, but now through
• 8:35
  a redeemed perspective and redeemed lens
• 8:37
  without any language or equipping. So
• 8:38
  I'm feeling things, I'm sensing things,
• 8:40
  I'm in a service, and worship gets to a
• 8:42
  certain level. And something hits me
• 8:44
  that that I can't describe and feels
• 8:46
  like I'm going to come out of my skin. I
• 8:47
  don't know what it is. I will learn
• 8:49
  later. It was the gift of prophecy, but
• 8:51
  I didn't know it at the time. And so,
• 8:52
  um, when I got saved, I actually got
• 8:54
  saved the first time I prayed the
• 8:56
  sinner's prayer, uh, in seventh grade in
• 8:58
  a huge church in California, but, uh, we
• 9:01
  didn't live in that area. So, when I
• 9:03
  finally came to the Lord fully at 16, I
• 9:05
  ended up going to a very small church.
• 9:07
  And look back at it and think in many
• 9:09
  ways that church was so dysfunctional.
• 9:11
  It doesn't exist today. But because it
• 9:13
  was small, I think God really used it. I
• 9:16
  don't know that I would have had the
• 9:17
  same experience if I was in like a
• 9:19
  massive space without relationships and
• 9:21
  accountability. In that very little
• 9:23
  church, we didn't talk about the
• 9:25
  prophetic prophets or any of that stuff.
• 9:26
  How they were open to it, but they just
• 9:28
  didn't have a grid for it. But there was
• 9:30
  a group of women that would get together
• 9:32
  at 6:00 a.m. prayer. And at 16, oddly
• 9:35
  enough, I'm going to 6 a.m. prayer. I
• 9:37
  just intuitively know there's something
• 9:39
  I need to be a part of. And in 6 a.m.
• 9:42
  prayer, we're having prayer meetings.
• 9:43
  and that come out of your skin feeling
• 9:45
  would come on me and I and they would
• 9:46
  say that's prophecy Ryan let it out of
• 9:48
  your belly whatever it is and I would
• 9:49
  prophesy. So that was the cultivation
• 9:51
  stage of that gift. Now, it would
• 9:54
  literally be many years, I mean well
• 9:56
  over a decade before I ever got in the
• 9:58
  midst of people for which that was
• 9:59
  common place or common place and
• 10:02
  actually had language for it. Because my
• 10:04
  early exposure beyond that was uh I was
• 10:07
  brought into spaces that were
• 10:08
  spiritfilled and people were saying,
• 10:09
  "You have the word of the Lord in your
• 10:10
  mouth. Come up here, prophesy, give a
• 10:12
  word of knowledge, but they still didn't
• 10:14
  have the language or the culture." They
• 10:16
  were open to it. They wanted it. They
• 10:18
  didn't have the language and the
• 10:19
  culture. And so it was very challenging
• 10:20
  because you're having experiences and
• 10:23
  encounters that you really can't explain
• 10:25
  to other people. You you feel
• 10:27
  disconnected from a lot of people around
• 10:30
  you because your pathway is so different
• 10:31
  from them, you know, and um it can be
• 10:34
  burdensome. And so then my calling at I
• 10:39
  must have been around 17 I think is when
• 10:41
  I went to Bible college. I'm in prayer
• 10:43
  one day and during that time it would be
• 10:45
  very normal for me to spend hours
• 10:47
  praying. You know, I I literally the
• 10:48
  point of like I was going to Bible
• 10:50
  college, I was working, I was praying.
• 10:51
  That was the three things I was doing.
• 10:53
  Uh if you wanted to catch me for lunch
• 10:55
  or dinner, it was I'm not working in
• 10:57
  Bible college or praying cuz God had set
• 10:59
  me on a very strict schedule of of
• 11:01
  spiritual diet. And so one of these long
• 11:04
  times of prayer, Jesus comes into the
• 11:06
  room and he starts talking to me and he
• 11:08
  says to me, "Everybody has two things in
• 11:10
  their life. They have a call and they
• 11:12
  have a commission."
• 11:13
  >> Wow.
• 11:14
  >> So I said, "This is interesting. Okay,
• 11:15
  what is the call?" And he explains it to
• 11:17
  me. This is the what this is. You know
• 11:19
  when we think of apostle, prophet,
• 11:21
  evangelist, pastor, teacher, we want to
• 11:22
  go beyond five-fold and think of, you
• 11:24
  know, intercessor, we think of ministry
• 11:25
  of helps, governments, you know,
• 11:27
  whatever you could put any terminology
• 11:29
  there for me. He was sharing with me
• 11:30
  about the five-fold because that would
• 11:32
  become an area I would be very active
• 11:33
  in. And so I I said, "What is the
• 11:35
  commission?" He said, "That's the how."
• 11:37
  And he begins to call off names to me.
• 11:39
  And he said, "This person was an
• 11:40
  apostle. They were an apostle of faith.
• 11:41
  This person was an apostle. They were
• 11:43
  apostle of healing." So I asked him,
• 11:44
  "Well, Lord, what is my call?" And he
• 11:46
  says, "You're called the apostolic."
• 11:47
  Now, mind you,
• 11:49
  >> I never had any at this age. I had no
• 11:51
  exposure to what that meant,
• 11:53
  >> right?
• 11:53
  >> I was around people who believed in the
• 11:55
  five-fold ministry, but the description
• 11:56
  of an apostle would be somebody that
• 11:59
  goes on foreign missions trips. That
• 12:00
  would be maybe the totality of
• 12:02
  understanding.
• 12:02
  >> Okay?
• 12:03
  >> So, this is like, you know, so
• 12:04
  perplexing to me. And then I asked him,
• 12:06
  well, how what is my commission? How am
• 12:08
  I supposed to do? He said, I want you to
• 12:09
  take my power to the nations around the
• 12:11
  world. So that was sort of the beginning
• 12:14
  of this huge I'm here for something much
• 12:17
  greater than what I thought. But all
• 12:20
  through this process of salvation to
• 12:22
  knowing I'm called to all of this. Um
• 12:24
  it's a dying process for me because I
• 12:26
  don't want to be called like I want to
• 12:28
  get saved. I want to do what I want to
• 12:30
  do and I want to just go to church, pay
• 12:33
  tithe, give offering and do that. I
• 12:35
  don't want to be in the forefront of
• 12:36
  anything. And God just keeps on and on
• 12:39
  with with this. And actually when I was
• 12:40
  16 sitting in a service in California
• 12:42
  before I moved to Bible college, a voice
• 12:44
  said to me, "I've called you." Now
• 12:46
  people say, "Was it audible?" I don't
• 12:47
  know. I just know I did this. Like you
• 12:49
  know who's talking? And I said, "I know
• 12:51
  you're not talking to me." The Lord was
• 12:53
  like, "Yes, I'm talking to you." So that
• 12:55
  was the journey. And each one of those
• 12:57
  experiences was like just mind-boggling
• 12:59
  to me because I felt like Paul says the
• 13:01
  least of these I I I still am amazed.
• 13:04
  I'm preaching over 30 nations of the
• 13:06
  world in person. I'm not including
• 13:08
  things I've done on television, now the
• 13:09
  online world. But I'm still really truly
• 13:12
  amazed that God has allowed me to do
• 13:14
  that because I never thought it would be
• 13:15
  so.
• 13:16
  >> Yeah, it's really crazy.
• 13:18
  >> Um, but it's incredible. I relate to
• 13:21
  what you're saying in a lot of different
• 13:22
  ways and kind of going back to before
• 13:25
  you were saved, just the draw to the
• 13:27
  supernatural, the draw to the dark, cuz
• 13:28
  I'm thinking about how the gifts are
• 13:30
  without repentance. So obviously that's
• 13:32
  always inside of you. um but the
• 13:34
  propensity for it. But because you're
• 13:36
  absent of atonement, you're not a new
• 13:38
  creation. It's always going to come
• 13:41
  through and filter through the
• 13:42
  counterfeit. And so for me, that was
• 13:44
  like astrology. You know, the devil was
• 13:47
  really using me and I could like walk up
• 13:49
  to someone and know everything about
• 13:50
  their birth chart and their sign and all
• 13:52
  these things. And then to see how God
• 13:54
  has like not redeemed astrology of
• 13:56
  course, but just redeemed the gift that
• 13:58
  he initially has given me that the devil
• 14:02
  wanted to use to evangelize for the
• 14:04
  kingdom of darkness. It's just really
• 14:06
  cool. And I think there's a lot of
• 14:07
  people um I know especially like with my
• 14:09
  audience that they come from darkness
• 14:12
  and they were so drawn to the
• 14:14
  supernatural and then they come to
• 14:16
  Christ. I wasn't even necessarily going
• 14:18
  to go in this direction, but I'm just
• 14:19
  curious your thoughts on it. And then
• 14:20
  they come to Christ and they kind of put
• 14:23
  on white gloves. They put up blinders
• 14:25
  like they get afraid of the
• 14:27
  supernatural. They get afraid of the
• 14:28
  Holy Spirit. They get afraid of the
• 14:30
  operations of the gifts that they had
• 14:32
  before. Do you have a lot of experience
• 14:35
  with that? Do you see that happen a lot?
• 14:36
  And what is your advice to people kind
• 14:39
  of in that position?
• 14:40
  >> Yeah, I I do. And I think you touched on
• 14:41
  it of being an evangelist for darkness.
• 14:43
  I think the world has done a much better
• 14:45
  job at saying the world is spiritual.
• 14:48
  Like look at all the terms we see today
• 14:50
  now. Manifesting and the universe says
• 14:52
  and the laws of the universe and you
• 14:54
  know all these things. I just took a
• 14:55
  business course uh for a lot of what I
• 14:57
  do online. Brilliant, brilliant,
• 14:59
  brilliant person. But about twothirds
• 15:01
  through they start telling all this
• 15:03
  spiritual junk that that they practice
• 15:05
  within their business. And I'm saying
• 15:07
  okay the problem is because they're not
• 15:08
  redeemed. So so they're reaching for
• 15:10
  something beyond what they can feel,
• 15:12
  touch, and see. Uh, and then you go into
• 15:15
  the church arena. Like, let's talk about
• 15:16
  prophets. Every day I get a message from
• 15:19
  somebody. I'm prophetic. My church is
• 15:20
  not. And if we were to survey, you know,
• 15:23
  any city. I live outside of Atlanta.
• 15:25
  We're here outside of Nashville. Any
• 15:27
  city, we could find just hundreds if not
• 15:29
  thousands of churches that preach good
• 15:32
  biblical messages, have a decent worship
• 15:34
  set, but there's absolutely nothing that
• 15:37
  that is supernatural in nature. And
• 15:40
  we've really uh westernized our
• 15:43
  Christian expression and we've shut down
• 15:45
  the supernatural. And I actually think
• 15:47
  it's gotten worse. Uh I can think back
• 15:49
  to, you know, 20 years ago, so I would
• 15:51
  have been 10 years into ministry when
• 15:53
  revival was blasting all over America
• 15:55
  and there were all these huge revival
• 15:57
  meetings and, you know, people were
• 15:58
  getting their cars and flying and
• 16:00
  driving. And we see some of that now.
• 16:02
  But I'm saying like if you were a
• 16:03
  spiritfilled church in that time period
• 16:05
  and you were not laying hands on people
• 16:07
  and people are not encountering God,
• 16:08
  they're going to leave because there was
• 16:10
  such a move of God. But we've done such
• 16:12
  a poor job of of maintaining the the
• 16:16
  supernatural. And really understand,
• 16:19
  think about this, the kingdom of God was
• 16:21
  never a theory, an idea, a debate, but
• 16:24
  we've reduced Christianity to that. Like
• 16:27
  we we've camped out on the intellectual
• 16:29
  side of Christianity. And so meanwhile,
• 16:32
  all these other segments of our society
• 16:35
  are opening up to the spiritual realm
• 16:37
  and we're our voice is kind of not
• 16:39
  present. And so then we get mad, you
• 16:41
  know, and we do all these there's
• 16:42
  witchcraft of the world. A lot of that I
• 16:44
  think is an indictment against the
• 16:45
  church because we've not done our job.
• 16:47
  Uh prophets were always unusual. They
• 16:50
  saw things. They encountered things.
• 16:51
  They experienced things. They struggled
• 16:53
  to give language to what they
• 16:54
  experienced. Some of their methodology
• 16:56
  didn't make sense. It was scary. We
• 16:57
  think think about Moses. like you're
• 16:59
  throwing a rod down and picking it up
• 17:01
  and it's alive like this. What what
• 17:03
  would happen if we see this in today's
• 17:05
  world? And most of our great churches
• 17:07
  and most of our great preachers that we
• 17:08
  could lift up and say this person, this
• 17:10
  person, this person, they're completely
• 17:11
  uncomfortable with the supernatural. And
• 17:14
  so I I would ultimately say a lot of
• 17:15
  this is the spirit of religion in
• 17:18
  idolatry in the sense because the reason
• 17:19
  I say idolatry,
• 17:21
  >> idolatry at its heart is the worship of
• 17:23
  the creation over the creator. When I
• 17:26
  begin to embrace a supernatural creator,
• 17:28
  I have to relinquish control.
• 17:30
  >> So good.
• 17:31
  >> Because what happens, what happened in
• 17:32
  my life, what happened in your life
• 17:34
  wasn't our plan. If I'm honest, 30 plus
• 17:36
  years in, I'm still kind of like, are
• 17:38
  you sure, Lord? Like, we could take a
• 17:39
  break anytime you want to, you know, cuz
• 17:41
  it's not my plan, but it's supernatural.
• 17:44
  And so, I 100% agree that happens. And
• 17:47
  we see these people that were so vibrant
• 17:50
  over here in darkness and they come in
• 17:52
  the church and they just go completely
• 17:53
  shut down. Um and we it doesn't help
• 17:56
  that we teach a lot of things today from
• 17:59
  the basis of it is fear like
• 18:01
  >> I've done prophetic trainings for people
• 18:03
  in in like basically teaching for those
• 18:05
  watching say what does that mean
• 18:07
  teaching on what the prophetic is and
• 18:09
  teaching you that when you get born
• 18:10
  again I say it this way you're hardwired
• 18:12
  to hear from God because your spirit's
• 18:13
  born in the image and likeness of God so
• 18:15
  you hear from God you reflect his nature
• 18:18
  but uh then I try to get people to let's
• 18:21
  now move in something prophetic maybe
• 18:22
  that's joining hands the neighbor asking
• 18:24
  God for one word and give them the one
• 18:26
  word. Um, always people are afraid. What
• 18:29
  if I miss it? I say, what if I could
• 18:32
  flip that script in your brain to what
• 18:33
  if I miss it to what if I hit it?
• 18:35
  >> What if I give this person that would
• 18:37
  change your life? And why is the
• 18:38
  dominant thing that you are thinking is
• 18:41
  fear-based? Because our major doctrines
• 18:44
  are fear-based. So, if I write an
• 18:46
  article online or we do a podcast and
• 18:48
  say five witchcraft warnings
• 18:50
  versus five ways that you could hear
• 18:53
  God's voice, sadly, the first one is
• 18:55
  going to go more viral.
• 18:56
  >> Oh, I know it. Yeah.
• 18:57
  >> Because of fear. And that's part of the
• 18:59
  problem, I believe.
• 19:00
  >> Yeah. That you're you're really touching
• 19:02
  on something that's been on my heart
• 19:04
  heavy lately is this like the appetite
• 19:06
  of the church and how it really does
• 19:08
  kind of lean more toward darkness rather
• 19:10
  than it does identity. Because that's
• 19:12
  that's even what the supernatural
• 19:14
  worldview comes from is is the baseline
• 19:16
  of identity of knowing your creator,
• 19:18
  knowing that you're made in his image
• 19:20
  and likeness and he is supernatural and
• 19:22
  he is his spirit
• 19:23
  >> and wow. Okay. So that actually it kind
• 19:26
  of oddly enough segways into the topic
• 19:29
  of emotional manipulation because I see
• 19:34
  this whole scheme of the of the enemy to
• 19:39
  quench the spirit of God, the move of
• 19:40
  God in the church as a manipulative
• 19:43
  tactic. It is it is witchcraft by and
• 19:45
  large, which is ironic because, you
• 19:48
  know, people don't necessarily believe
• 19:51
  in the supernatural in the church. And
• 19:54
  yet that doesn't stop it from operating
• 19:56
  in and of itself. So can you c can you
• 19:59
  talk about you you mentioned the
• 20:00
  religious spirit um being responsible
• 20:03
  for this which I would agree. Can you
• 20:06
  talk about as you do in the book a
• 20:07
  little bit about the Jezebel spirit kind
• 20:09
  of how that spirit plays into this whole
• 20:13
  conversation?
• 20:14
  >> Yeah I think Jezebel one of the
• 20:15
  manifestation of Jezebel and witchcraft
• 20:17
  is control. So when we talk about
• 20:18
  witchcraft, we always think of like the
• 20:20
  big supernatural stuff, you know, right?
• 20:23
  >> And we don't think about the controlling
• 20:25
  elements. And and so Jezebel is really a
• 20:28
  spirit of witchcraft that operates by
• 20:30
  trying to displace
• 20:33
  people that God has established in
• 20:35
  authority and replace them with somebody
• 20:37
  that God has not established. So um if
• 20:40
  I'm looking at in a business, right,
• 20:42
  it's like I'm working for you, but I'm
• 20:43
  secretly plotting your destruction. And
• 20:46
  um usually I'm utilizing a lot of
• 20:49
  flattery or seduction because Jezebel,
• 20:51
  if you study the whole story of Jezebel
• 20:53
  and Ahab and the whole lineage of that
• 20:55
  family, uh there's a lot of idolatry
• 20:58
  connected to seductive powers. You
• 21:01
  cannot have a Jezebel spirit without a
• 21:03
  level of seduction. Um it usually left
• 21:06
  unchecked will lead to some form of
• 21:08
  immorality, but often times the
• 21:11
  seduction is not that. You know, in
• 21:12
  churches, I've seen it where it's
• 21:13
  somebody saying, "Uh, I'll babysit your
• 21:15
  kids. I'll clean your car. I'll do this.
• 21:17
  I'll do this. I'll this because God, you
• 21:18
  know, said you're the greatest leader
• 21:20
  that ever existed, and you're better
• 21:21
  than so and so." And you, and right
• 21:22
  there, that those statements are
• 21:24
  unhealthy because God doesn't tear one
• 21:26
  person down to raise another person up.
• 21:29
  And so, people often when I say these
• 21:31
  things, they say, "Well, you're making
• 21:32
  it sound like to do any acts of service
• 21:34
  is bad." No, it's not at all. It's
• 21:36
  motive. As prophetic people, we weigh
• 21:38
  motive more than we often weigh message.
• 21:41
  Message is important, but motive is
• 21:43
  equally important. And so Jezebel will
• 21:46
  gain influence with the goal of control.
• 21:49
  And it's a it's an unseeding spirit.
• 21:52
  Like I want to unseat
• 21:53
  >> godly authority so that I can divide and
• 21:56
  conquer. And even those sometimes
• 21:58
  operating in this, they don't realize
• 21:59
  they are. Some do, some don't. Um, but
• 22:02
  it it it invests itself heavily in
• 22:04
  controlling people. And look, leadership
• 22:07
  will facilitate growth. Leadership may
• 22:09
  even challenge decisions. But the motive
• 22:12
  of a godly leader is your development.
• 22:14
  The motive of control is safety for the
• 22:18
  person that is controlling. So in other
• 22:20
  words, it may be very unsafe for you
• 22:21
  what I'm asking you, but for me it it
• 22:24
  makes me feel good. So I'm going to
• 22:25
  force it on you whether you want to do
• 22:26
  it or not. And that's just an antichrist
• 22:29
  spirit because it it quenches your
• 22:31
  expression of identity. When I control
• 22:33
  you, you're not able to become fully who
• 22:36
  God created you to be. So, so the a kind
• 22:39
  of theme that I noticed in your book was
• 22:41
  it seems like that spirit tends to
• 22:44
  attack prophetic types more so. I was
• 22:48
  wondering if you could speak to that a
• 22:49
  little bit like why that is
• 22:51
  >> what the assignment is there.
• 22:53
  >> Yeah. Well, historically, you know, if
• 22:54
  we look at the person Jezebel,
• 22:56
  >> right,
• 22:57
  >> she established her own prophetic
• 22:58
  ministry. And I think that there's
• 23:01
  always a draw for that particular league
• 23:03
  of demon. And it is a league of demon.
• 23:05
  It's not like there's one spirit. this
• 23:07
  this one Jezebel spirit's going around
• 23:08
  and people will often say there's no
• 23:10
  Jezebel spirit and I'll tell them we're
• 23:12
  tracking the person in the Bible but the
• 23:13
  the benefit we have on this particular
• 23:15
  thought is we can go to Revelations and
• 23:17
  see you know many years after Jezebel
• 23:20
  was dead it's being called out which
• 23:22
  also tracks for us this is a type of
• 23:24
  spirit that's really what it is it's an
• 23:26
  enchanting spirit it's a dominating
• 23:27
  spirit it's a witchcraft spirit so the
• 23:29
  reason why it wants to affect prophetic
• 23:32
  people is it wants to silence pure
• 23:34
  prophetic ministry it's okay with impure
• 23:37
  prophetic ministry. But pure prophetic
• 23:39
  ministry does one thing at its core that
• 23:41
  no other type of expression of the
• 23:42
  prophetic does. It testifies of Jesus
• 23:45
  and it that testimony draws people out
• 23:48
  of whatever they're going through into
• 23:50
  the Lord. And so one challenge we can
• 23:52
  even have like if we deal with Jezebel
• 23:54
  and religion for example, right? Those
• 23:56
  things together may blast people and may
• 23:59
  sound really righteous in what they're
• 24:00
  saying, but they actually don't draw
• 24:02
  people to Jesus. They draw people to
• 24:04
  themselves. And that's what a Jezebel
• 24:06
  spirit does. It builds its own power
• 24:09
  basis and it will really use any
• 24:11
  terminology. Like if it's if it's in a
• 24:13
  denominational church, it'll use the
• 24:15
  terminology of that denomination and it
• 24:16
  will sound like really righteous, but at
• 24:18
  its core it's rotten. And so it wants to
• 24:21
  seduce prophets because it wants to
• 24:23
  pollute the prophetic. That's the goal
• 24:24
  is it it's terrified of pure prophetic
• 24:26
  because pure prophetic is going to crush
• 24:28
  its altars. It's going to decapitate its
• 24:30
  operation and it's going to exalt Jesus.
• 24:32
  And this is an antichrist, anti-Jesus
• 24:35
  spirit.
• 24:36
  >> Yeah, 100%. I'm like making faces and
• 24:38
  reacting because one, oh, there's 100%
• 24:40
  of Jezebel spirit. And I was one of
• 24:42
  those people that would have said like
• 24:44
  when I first got saved, no, there's not.
• 24:45
  That's that's blah blah blah. It's
• 24:46
  because I had one. So, I was
• 24:48
  >> that's the [laughter] whole revelation
• 24:49
  right there.
• 24:50
  >> Like that's the whole revelation. So, I
• 24:51
  was delivered from that. And I mean, the
• 24:53
  manifestation from that was insane. And
• 24:55
  obviously, you don't you're not going
• 24:56
  after manifestation, you're going after
• 24:58
  the freedom. But getting rid of that
• 25:00
  thing was
• 25:02
  >> it was a fight. But I I noticed it in
• 25:05
  hindsight and I still notice in
• 25:06
  hindsight you know because when you have
• 25:08
  that spirit for so long and I believe
• 25:10
  for in my case it was generational
• 25:12
  because grew up with like a single mom
• 25:14
  who had to you know in a Catholic
• 25:16
  church. So
• 25:18
  >> um I see I see the way that that spirit
• 25:22
  had trained me in my relationship you
• 25:25
  know in my marriage. I see how it had
• 25:27
  trained me in my friendships. I see how
• 25:28
  it had trained me even the way that I
• 25:31
  look in the mirror
• 25:32
  >> and and having to undo all the
• 25:34
  strongholds that it did build in my mind
• 25:36
  over the last couple years has just been
• 25:38
  this this like crushing process. But
• 25:41
  it's been so incredibly beautiful like
• 25:43
  to actually be free from that. Now, I
• 25:46
  will say I
• 25:49
  I I I have historically, perhaps not as
• 25:52
  much now that I have more of a
• 25:54
  discernment and awareness of it, but I
• 25:56
  have historically drawn that to me in
• 25:59
  other people. One of [clears throat] my
• 26:01
  most um kind of you give a lot of really
• 26:04
  wonderful personal accounts in this in
• 26:05
  this book. One of my most highlighted
• 26:10
  relationships when I first came to the
• 26:11
  faith was with someone else that came
• 26:14
  out of new age as well who needed a lot
• 26:16
  and a lot of a lot of deliverance. She
• 26:18
  needed disciplehip. She needed all of
• 26:20
  the things. But you know how it is when
• 26:23
  you have that spirit. You you when you
• 26:25
  go from witchcraft,
• 26:27
  the kind of like follow my heart
• 26:29
  paradigm that you have in witchcraft is
• 26:31
  now oh the Lord told me
• 26:33
  >> but it's like did he did he really tell
• 26:35
  you to be a lone ranger Christian with a
• 26:38
  vagabond thing where you're just like
• 26:40
  here there everywhere and there's no
• 26:41
  true grounding and then when when
• 26:44
  something doesn't work out it's because
• 26:45
  everyone else is the problem sort of
• 26:46
  thing. Um, and so that relationship
• 26:50
  ended really, really badly. And I
• 26:54
  recognize, you know, it wasn't
• 26:56
  necessarily her as much as it was what
• 26:58
  she was operating under. And and I don't
• 27:00
  think she was aware of it. Um, but kind
• 27:03
  of my my point in sharing that is
• 27:06
  cuz I'm totally okay with being open and
• 27:08
  real about myself and my own struggles.
• 27:10
  So when you have if you have like a
• 27:13
  prophetic inclination, which is
• 27:15
  something I'm still coming around to for
• 27:17
  my own self, um just because of all the
• 27:19
  trauma I do have from the new age or had
• 27:21
  from the new age,
• 27:24
  what unhealed parts of you with that
• 27:28
  sort of gift
• 27:30
  can make it so you almost become a
• 27:32
  magnet unknowingly to that spirit?
• 27:34
  Because obviously the spirit itself has
• 27:36
  an assignment, but what is it about the
• 27:38
  person that's being assigned against?
• 27:40
  What does it say about me or about
• 27:42
  someone else that continues to draw this
• 27:44
  type of person to themselves where they
• 27:46
  are emotionally manipulated through
• 27:48
  seduction, through flattery, through all
• 27:50
  of those things that you're saying or
• 27:51
  the characteristics of the Jezebel that
• 27:53
  need to be dealt with with the Lord in
• 27:56
  order for that to not happen.
• 27:58
  >> I think a lot of times it's rejection.
• 28:00
  And I think if you are prophetic, you
• 28:03
  have always gone through, and then we
• 28:05
  could put this, you know, through
• 28:06
  biblical lenses, looking at David,
• 28:08
  looking at Joseph, looking at the
• 28:09
  different characters in the Bible,
• 28:10
  you've always gone through some season
• 28:13
  of like, people don't get me. And and it
• 28:15
  may be in some cases very extreme, in
• 28:17
  other cases not so extreme. you if you
• 28:20
  haven't had that experience, you've had
• 28:21
  maybe an experience where you heard from
• 28:24
  God the best away from people which then
• 28:26
  can make you be uncomfortable in the
• 28:29
  presence of people and that can lead to
• 28:33
  sort of some rejected mentalities and
• 28:34
  mindsets. So when somebody comes in and
• 28:39
  really like super affirms you uh that
• 28:43
  feels so refreshing and and I think you
• 28:45
  know often too as you're in your own
• 28:47
  prophetic development they're just
• 28:50
  certain struggles and challenges you're
• 28:51
  facing and in my experience with people
• 28:53
  who have had Jezebel spirits who have
• 28:55
  been drawn to me or to my ministry they
• 28:57
  show up usually with solutions. I mean
• 28:59
  you have ones that show up and it's like
• 29:01
  we can see that clearly but you have
• 29:03
  others that you're at a time of crisis.
• 29:05
  there's a need, there's an issue, and
• 29:06
  they show up and they seem to be the
• 29:07
  answer to the thing. But again, when you
• 29:10
  dig a little bit deeper behind it,
• 29:12
  there's a motive. And and that's the
• 29:14
  number one thing for me is like it's the
• 29:16
  motive. Manipulation
• 29:18
  is really the exercising of influence to
• 29:22
  gain a certain outcome, irregardless of
• 29:25
  if that outcome is the right outcome for
• 29:27
  somebody, if that outcome is them
• 29:30
  learning to be led by the Holy Spirit.
• 29:32
  No, no, we're just going to fast track.
• 29:33
  We want you here. So, we're going to you
• 29:35
  do everything in our power to get you
• 29:36
  here. And I think that's drawn to people
• 29:39
  often that have dealt with some level of
• 29:40
  rejection. And here's the thing, you can
• 29:42
  be very strong, like you can preach
• 29:45
  strong, you could be a great author, you
• 29:47
  know, but still have this part of your
• 29:49
  heart that's struggling for acceptance.
• 29:51
  And so, when something pops up that
• 29:54
  looks like acceptance to you, it can
• 29:56
  find that way in. And I think that's
• 29:58
  with a lot of prophetic people that's
• 30:00
  often in the secondary thing be
• 30:02
  sometimes too when you're in your own
• 30:04
  spiritual battles cuz as a prophet or
• 30:05
  prophetic person it's often times easier
• 30:08
  for you to hear from God for other
• 30:09
  people than for yourself.
• 30:10
  >> Wow.
• 30:11
  >> These type of people will also come
• 30:13
  along in those seasons and have
• 30:15
  something that seems accurate like hey
• 30:16
  the Lord showed me you're really going
• 30:17
  through battle like oh my gosh nobody
• 30:19
  else has picked up on this. So your ears
• 30:21
  immediately inclined but you don't do
• 30:24
  your homework. You don't ask like where
• 30:25
  did this person come from? what's their
• 30:27
  story, what's their fruit, which would
• 30:29
  help you do a diagnostic and avoid that
• 30:31
  because you're often in a place of
• 30:32
  desperation.
• 30:33
  >> That's really good. Now, so a question
• 30:36
  that came up for me while I was reading
• 30:37
  this,
• 30:39
  if somebody is being emotionally
• 30:43
  manipulative um and operating through
• 30:45
  witchcraft, through that modality, do
• 30:47
  they always have a Jezebel spirit or can
• 30:49
  these two things be distinct?
• 30:51
  >> They can be distinct. I mean it's I
• 30:53
  would be very comfortable saying the the
• 30:55
  type of manipulation is jezebelic but
• 30:58
  you know we're a three-part being
• 30:59
  according to Thessalonians and we have a
• 31:01
  soul mind will emotions and that's where
• 31:04
  the vibrancy of life is housed. So you
• 31:06
  know the when I feel God I emote what
• 31:09
  I'm feeling that's where all artistry
• 31:11
  comes from. You know it's the emoting an
• 31:13
  experience a desire a dream a fantasy an
• 31:16
  imagination. Um that's where many
• 31:18
  cultures come from. We're emoting
• 31:20
  something that is spoken to us. So, we
• 31:22
  are emotional beings by nature. Where
• 31:26
  emotional manipulation comes in into
• 31:28
  play is that I'm going to use your
• 31:30
  emotions to leverage an outcome that
• 31:33
  suits me and not necessarily you. And
• 31:36
  that is always a manifestation of
• 31:38
  control. I think there are people that
• 31:40
  operate at lower levels of that that
• 31:43
  they may not be like really super
• 31:45
  influenced by a highle demon. they
• 31:48
  themselves might be very rejected. And
• 31:49
  so I find and I think I write about this
• 31:51
  in the book oftentimes one of the most
• 31:53
  safe feeling places for a rejected
• 31:55
  person is a place of control. And I used
• 31:58
  to look at that and say, you know, I
• 32:00
  would point at other people like you're
• 32:01
  trying to control me. I've learned under
• 32:03
  beneath those walls there is a person
• 32:06
  that feels very fragile. And so they've
• 32:09
  learned to control their feeling of
• 32:10
  fragility by controlling everything
• 32:13
  around them. And that's not necessarily
• 32:16
  always a jezebelic thing as much as is
• 32:18
  is a fractured soul and a person in
• 32:21
  pain. And they do need an area of
• 32:23
  deliverance and mind renewal for sure,
• 32:26
  but it's not always exactly the same
• 32:28
  footing as someone that's like really
• 32:30
  highly jezebellic.
• 32:31
  >> Right. That was actually my next
• 32:32
  question cuz you highlight kind of like
• 32:34
  11 different types of emotionally
• 32:37
  manipulative people. Um, but as I was
• 32:39
  reading this, so there were two people
• 32:41
  that were really coming to mind as I was
• 32:42
  reading the book and one of them I
• 32:45
  already mentioned, but the other so
• 32:46
  there they I believe they both have the
• 32:49
  Jezebel spirit, but they both operate in
• 32:51
  it through completely different ways.
• 32:54
  Whereas the first one that I was
• 32:55
  mentioning, you know, it was always
• 32:57
  again the flattery. It was like
• 33:00
  >> she kind of floats through life on a
• 33:02
  glory cloud sort of thing, like
• 33:04
  nothing's ever wrong, you know,
• 33:05
  everything's all great and whatever. But
• 33:07
  then the other person does do the victim
• 33:10
  thing. Um, you know, I'm everything's so
• 33:14
  hard because you. Everything's so hard
• 33:15
  because you. If only you would see
• 33:16
  things from my perspective. Can't
• 33:18
  apologize. Like can't take
• 33:19
  accountability. The other person would
• 33:22
  would apologize. So it was it was just
• 33:24
  like this really weird observation. Um,
• 33:26
  so I I'm wondering like is there
• 33:30
  I guess maybe the the the the one that
• 33:33
  came out of witchcraft that would be
• 33:34
  considered more of like a a high ranking
• 33:38
  because it's more covert. Is that
• 33:40
  correct?
• 33:40
  >> Very likely. Yes. Yes. Yes. And I think
• 33:42
  the other example you give maybe a lot
• 33:45
  of brokenness in the emotions and and
• 33:48
  you know if you look at Galatians
• 33:50
  witchcraft is listed as a fruit of the
• 33:52
  flesh. So we we sometimes always want to
• 33:55
  go deep with that but it literally can
• 33:57
  be undisiplined flesh and um and that's
• 34:00
  why I wrote in the book about those
• 34:01
  different I I was like Lord how can I
• 34:03
  make this so practical give me and I did
• 34:06
  a lot of research too before writing but
• 34:08
  give me examples of just personal things
• 34:11
  that we go through and personality types
• 34:13
  that we can look at and go okay there
• 34:14
  they're there and I'll tell you the
• 34:16
  biggest thing is when you start to
• 34:18
  become emotionally healthy like I used
• 34:20
  to struggle with this a lot in ministry
• 34:22
  and and I'm I'm not going to say I don't
• 34:23
  ever struggle with this now, but people
• 34:25
  have a way of saying,
• 34:26
  >> you know, you preached 415 times and
• 34:29
  helped my life, but I called you on
• 34:31
  Tuesday at noon and you were preaching
• 34:33
  out of the country and you couldn't take
• 34:35
  my call and I'm devastated. It's
• 34:37
  destroyed my life. And I would get in
• 34:39
  that place with somebody where I would
• 34:40
  feel devastated like, "Oh my gosh, I
• 34:42
  destroyed their life because I didn't
• 34:43
  answer my phone because I was in Nigeria
• 34:45
  preaching." And then I had to realize
• 34:47
  like this is really emotionally
• 34:49
  unhealthy. Like in normal life, we don't
• 34:52
  do that. like you don't do that with
• 34:53
  your doctor. You don't do it with your
• 34:54
  chiropractor. But we bring that behavior
• 34:57
  into the church and really leverage
• 35:00
  unrealistic expectations to control
• 35:02
  people. And it's not normal. Like a
• 35:04
  normal relationship, you could say to
• 35:05
  me, Ryan, do you want to have lunch at
• 35:06
  noon? And if we're both healthy, I could
• 35:08
  say, "No, I don't."
• 35:09
  >> And and that's not going to bother you,
• 35:11
  right? But we blow it up into this whole
• 35:14
  like you don't love the Lord because and
• 35:16
  so I've learned when you become more
• 35:17
  emotionally healthy personally, you
• 35:20
  start feeling freer about saying no and
• 35:22
  you stop owning somebody else's
• 35:24
  reaction. That's where the real like
• 35:27
  when you start to be manipulated, you're
• 35:29
  often owning somebody else's reaction
• 35:32
  and then they can easily manipulate you.
• 35:34
  >> And then what happens is when you put
• 35:35
  the boundary up, it's always met with
• 35:37
  like intense resistance.
• 35:38
  >> Yeah.
• 35:39
  >> And they want to fight back and then say
• 35:40
  XYZ about you. That's that's a really
• 35:42
  really interesting observation. Um and
• 35:45
  it it's so true and I've seen it play
• 35:46
  out in my own life. Um, now now I wanted
• 35:49
  to kind of to that point ask you like
• 35:54
  how this because obviously you've been
• 35:56
  in ministry a lot longer than me and I
• 35:59
  know for me it was very shocking to
• 36:02
  discover, okay, wow, friendships,
• 36:05
  relationships in the church actually
• 36:09
  sometimes aren't so different as they
• 36:10
  are in the world after all. You know,
• 36:11
  like when I first came to Christ, I'm
• 36:13
  thinking we're all brothers and sisters.
• 36:15
  We're never going to hurt each other.
• 36:16
  we're never going to have bad
• 36:17
  intentions. Everything's going to be
• 36:18
  great. And and then I get like burned by
• 36:21
  this Jezebel spirit. I get like my heart
• 36:23
  broken and I'm like, "Okay, now I'm in
• 36:26
  my 30s and having friendships that just
• 36:30
  collapse in on themselves the same way I
• 36:32
  did when I was 7." And so for me, that
• 36:34
  was like really surprising to experience
• 36:37
  that as a born again believer with
• 36:39
  someone that I likely will be with in
• 36:41
  heaven. It's just so strange. Um, but
• 36:44
  you've obviously been in ministry a lot
• 36:46
  longer. So, how how does this kind of
• 36:49
  tend to show up in church settings,
• 36:52
  whether it be interpersonal
• 36:53
  relationships or more of like a
• 36:55
  corporate thing?
• 36:56
  >> Uh, I think that we start to have
• 36:59
  expectations of people that are
• 37:01
  unhealthy and we often do that because
• 37:03
  we maybe don't have proper teaching. So
• 37:06
  like before we come into the kingdom of
• 37:08
  God and we start being in the family of
• 37:10
  God in church, we have certain ways we
• 37:13
  execute relationships and then we get
• 37:15
  saved and we just think everybody is
• 37:18
  going to rise to my expectation of what
• 37:21
  Christianity looks like. And and in a
• 37:23
  very juvenile way that could be like,
• 37:24
  you know, I got saved last week and I'm
• 37:27
  asking you who's married and having
• 37:29
  children to come to my house five times
• 37:31
  a week because I have a need. And when
• 37:34
  you can't do that, it's like, "Oh my
• 37:36
  gosh, she let me down. The church is a
• 37:37
  bunch of hypocrites." And you know, we
• 37:40
  we have expectations that just aren't
• 37:43
  well calibrated. And then on the other
• 37:45
  side of it, you know, as leaders,
• 37:46
  sometimes we we struggle to manage all
• 37:51
  of the expectations and the rhythms
• 37:54
  attached to what we're supposed to do.
• 37:56
  And I think that we then wrap um our
• 38:00
  faith in all of that. So it's not just
• 38:01
  like when we go through these
• 38:03
  relationship challenges in the church,
• 38:04
  it's not like, okay, I just went through
• 38:05
  a relationship challenge that really
• 38:07
  hurt my feelings. It's like we make it a
• 38:09
  huge thing like, you know, I'm in such
• 38:11
  spiritual warfare, blah, blah, blah. And
• 38:12
  a lot of it, yes, that can be the case
• 38:15
  like in your experience coming out of a
• 38:17
  new age background and everything.
• 38:19
  Obviously, then there is certain levels
• 38:21
  of warfare that are going to be normal
• 38:22
  for that kind of deliverance journey.
• 38:25
  But on top of that, we often have really
• 38:28
  poor relational skills because of these
• 38:30
  expectations
• 38:31
  >> that we develop that that we just don't
• 38:33
  see in other segments of society. And I
• 38:36
  think the shocking thing is what you
• 38:38
  just said and we have to put it on the
• 38:39
  table and say it happens that we don't
• 38:43
  always do our relationships from a saved
• 38:45
  and redeemed perspective. And so what
• 38:47
  that can feel like when we get saved is
• 38:50
  we start to have experiences with some
• 38:52
  people in the church that in our mind we
• 38:54
  think this is no different than what I
• 38:56
  experienced in the world. Or maybe it's
• 38:58
  even worse because maybe in the world,
• 39:00
  you know, this person was just straight
• 39:02
  with me about who they were and now I'm
• 39:04
  over here and this person is presenting
• 39:06
  one thing and then I have a completely
• 39:08
  different experience behind the scenes.
• 39:10
  And so that can really mess their mind.
• 39:11
  And I had to learn
• 39:13
  >> in ministry early on that the only way I
• 39:16
  was going to make it is that scripture
• 39:18
  in Hebrews looking unto Jesus, the
• 39:20
  author and finisher of my faith. That I
• 39:22
  could not put my confidence or trust in
• 39:25
  people. Doesn't mean I don't love
• 39:27
  people. Doesn't mean I don't value
• 39:28
  people 100%. But I can't like tie my
• 39:32
  salvation journey into you being a good
• 39:35
  Christian. It's
• 39:36
  >> good
• 39:36
  >> because you are going to let me down.
• 39:38
  And what if it's designed that way in a
• 39:41
  sense? Because what if I sort of have so
• 39:43
  much confidence in you, I'm not relying
• 39:45
  on the Lord?
• 39:46
  >> Wow.
• 39:46
  >> And what if there's a bigger
• 39:47
  conversation of the frailty of humanity
• 39:50
  to realize like we're always going to
• 39:53
  blow it? And this is why it has to come
• 39:55
  back to grace on some level because
• 39:57
  we're in this journey of perfection.
• 39:59
  >> What What would this look like in the in
• 40:01
  the church in in in context of
• 40:03
  leadership? Because I have not
• 40:04
  experienced that. I know a lot of people
• 40:07
  >> come from backgrounds of of significant
• 40:09
  church hurt where
• 40:10
  >> they have almost felt like they're in a
• 40:12
  cult in a way and praise God again I
• 40:15
  haven't experienced that but I'm also
• 40:17
  hearing that there could be a nuance
• 40:18
  here where say
• 40:21
  you know someone expects a pastor to be
• 40:24
  able to carve out all this time and
• 40:26
  energy for them because they come out of
• 40:30
  XYZ and that's not necessarily
• 40:33
  the pastor being emotionally
• 40:35
  manipulative. That sounds more like it's
• 40:37
  it's a it's a you problem. Like you have
• 40:39
  wounds, you have control problems, you
• 40:41
  have rejection, you might have a Jezebel
• 40:43
  spirit. So now you're saying that
• 40:45
  because like your pastor who is also a
• 40:48
  father who is also a husband who is
• 40:49
  responsible for this entire congregation
• 40:52
  can't carve out I don't know an hour per
• 40:54
  week to spend with you one-on-one that
• 40:56
  he is a bad leader.
• 40:58
  >> I don't think that's true. But there are
• 41:00
  instances of bad leadership where we do
• 41:03
  see emotional manipulation in the
• 41:04
  Jezebel spirit at work. So what does
• 41:07
  that how does that sort of manifest?
• 41:09
  >> Yeah, I think to your point both things
• 41:11
  are true. You know, we definitely have
• 41:12
  seen um the unfolding in an almost
• 41:16
  astounding way of uh ministries crumble
• 41:20
  and and you know, certain leadership
• 41:23
  problems and personal problems get put
• 41:26
  out on the table. And we have to have if
• 41:29
  we look back at the bigger picture, we
• 41:30
  have to have a sense of somewhere in all
• 41:31
  of this, God is allowing it because he's
• 41:34
  perfecting his church and it's very
• 41:36
  painful and disruptive in a sense.
• 41:38
  >> Uh but the other side of that is some of
• 41:40
  what we hear as like pain from people
• 41:43
  may be unrealistic expectations. And I
• 41:46
  think there's an art when you connect to
• 41:48
  anybody, right? like um I've worked with
• 41:51
  people in the professional spaces and
• 41:53
  I've worked with people in the
• 41:54
  ministerial spaces that one of the
• 41:56
  things I try to do is is to be studious
• 41:59
  about a person. So I there's a leader in
• 42:02
  my life that's taught me so much. One of
• 42:04
  the most brilliant genius leaders I've
• 42:05
  ever known, but they are highly
• 42:07
  introverted. So if I go into a space
• 42:10
  with them and I expect the experience of
• 42:12
  an extroverted leader, I'm really going
• 42:14
  to be disappointed. And to the example
• 42:16
  you gave, if I'm saying I need, you
• 42:18
  know, 5 hours from you a week, it's
• 42:20
  never going to happen. And so I have a
• 42:22
  choice to make that I can go into that
• 42:23
  relationship and say because I didn't
• 42:25
  give the five hours a week, uh, God has
• 42:27
  let me down and I'm just going to quit
• 42:28
  the church. Or I can go into that and
• 42:30
  say, you know, I can really listen to
• 42:32
  this person's teaching and my life be
• 42:33
  changed. And the interaction I have with
• 42:35
  them, it may be brief or it may be
• 42:37
  whatever it is, but I'm understanding
• 42:40
  this is sort of where they're at in
• 42:42
  their life and this is sort of who they
• 42:43
  are. And I just think we have to be a
• 42:45
  little bit more mature in that approach.
• 42:47
  I also think when we deal with people
• 42:49
  who have really uh huge
• 42:50
  responsibilities,
• 42:52
  you know, you you're a human being. You
• 42:54
  can't be everywhere all at once. I think
• 42:56
  for pastors especially, like pastoring
• 42:58
  is probably one of the only
• 43:00
  >> professions, if you want to call it
• 43:01
  that, that I could think of that you're
• 43:03
  expected to do so many things you were
• 43:04
  never trained to do. Like you were not
• 43:06
  trained when you went to theology school
• 43:08
  about, you know, dealing with death and
• 43:11
  and finding yourself in funeral homes. I
• 43:13
  mean, I've been in situations where I
• 43:14
  was in the back room with the body and,
• 43:16
  you know, all these uncomfortable
• 43:18
  things. I was not trained for that. You
• 43:20
  were not trained to be a grief
• 43:21
  counselor.
• 43:22
  >> You were not trained to be a marriage
• 43:23
  counselor, you know, but it's but it's
• 43:25
  it's a role in which people are like,
• 43:27
  you're all of those things. And and I
• 43:29
  don't think that comes from a wicked
• 43:31
  place, right?
• 43:32
  >> It's just been a societal expectation,
• 43:34
  but I think it's a bit unrealistic
• 43:36
  because that one person cannot be all of
• 43:39
  those things. And depending on the
• 43:40
  administration of an organization, maybe
• 43:43
  they can set up different groups of
• 43:45
  people handling different things. But
• 43:47
  I've seen great organizations where the
• 43:48
  person's still like the members like I'm
• 43:50
  upset and hurt because I came and I went
• 43:53
  for a year and when I needed counseling,
• 43:55
  they sent me to the counseling group,
• 43:57
  you know, and it's like, well, they did
• 43:58
  that so that they preserved the strength
• 44:00
  of the leader and the leader could not
• 44:02
  get a divorce and not be in a scandal
• 44:04
  and they could tend to their family and
• 44:06
  model Christlike living to you. And then
• 44:09
  they did what Moses did, right? They
• 44:10
  empowered elders uh to help to meet the
• 44:13
  needs. But sometimes that we still don't
• 44:15
  understand that process. So I think both
• 44:17
  of those things happen.
• 44:18
  >> How have you seen at least it it
• 44:21
  manifests itself in the case where oh
• 44:24
  this leader this church is under a
• 44:26
  Jezebel spirit and they are taking
• 44:27
  advantage of their congregation? Like
• 44:29
  any personal experiences you have with
• 44:31
  people that have maybe come to you very
• 44:34
  church hurt from from something?
• 44:36
  >> For sure. I mean every day. [laughter]
• 44:37
  >> Yeah. every day. And you know, I think
• 44:40
  part of that again before I answer the
• 44:43
  crux of the question, part of that again
• 44:44
  is we have to pull back the lens and
• 44:46
  say, let's look at David.
• 44:47
  >> Yeah.
• 44:48
  >> Anointed prophet wanted another man's
• 44:50
  wife, which says to us there's always
• 44:53
  human frailty. And we have to be honest
• 44:55
  about that and say like nobody is beyond
• 44:59
  temptation. I am not saying that they
• 45:01
  should live in that space because Paul
• 45:03
  wrote to Timothy and wrote to Titus
• 45:05
  about leadership and eldership and
• 45:06
  bishop Rick and what the the the conduct
• 45:09
  code should look like. Okay. So in
• 45:11
  seeing people that have been through
• 45:12
  church and Jezebel spirits in churches
• 45:14
  absolutely we've taught the Jezebel
• 45:16
  spirit from the pew, right? Like you
• 45:18
  come in my church, you have a Jezebel
• 45:20
  spirit. And I think that's probably been
• 45:22
  a defense mechanism for a lot of pastors
• 45:24
  who felt attacked or whatever. But there
• 45:26
  are pastors and leaders and five-fold
• 45:28
  gifts that are jezebelics and it's the
• 45:30
  same pathway. They've often had some
• 45:33
  trauma, some unhealed area of their life
• 45:35
  that's created a lodging place for this
• 45:37
  spirit. And what that looks like is they
• 45:40
  they're exercising levels of authority
• 45:42
  without any concern for the people like
• 45:45
  you are going to do this and I don't
• 45:47
  care how it affects you. I don't care if
• 45:48
  it affects your marriage bad. I don't
• 45:49
  care if it affects this. They're often
• 45:51
  times looking at you know
• 45:53
  self-exaltation.
• 45:54
  I personally want to get to this level.
• 45:56
  I will get there any way I can. Now,
• 45:59
  usually these leaders, they're not that
• 46:01
  honest with themselves to say that. So,
• 46:03
  it's not like they're saying what I just
• 46:04
  said,
• 46:05
  >> right?
• 46:05
  >> They think I'm doing the will of God,
• 46:08
  >> and they may really believe that
• 46:09
  honestly. Some don't. Some know that
• 46:11
  they're really just not right. But some
• 46:14
  think they're really doing it right. And
• 46:16
  they've usually been challenged multiple
• 46:18
  times, not just by congregants, but by
• 46:21
  other leaders who've had great concern
• 46:22
  for them and wanted to see them get
• 46:24
  deliverance and come out of this.
• 46:26
  They've been challenged and they've over
• 46:28
  in the challenge because likely they've
• 46:30
  been successful. So
• 46:32
  >> their ministry is growing. What they're
• 46:34
  doing is succeeding in their eyes. And
• 46:36
  so it feels like I'm untouchable. God is
• 46:38
  blessing me. All of y'all are wrong. but
• 46:40
  they're hearing repetitious criticism
• 46:43
  and complaints and concerns and and
• 46:45
  really again you know if that is left
• 46:48
  unresolved it will always lead to a
• 46:51
  place of seduction and so this is where
• 46:53
  like um you know I've seen stories of
• 46:57
  somebody pastoring and being in an
• 46:59
  affair for years on end and it's like at
• 47:04
  no point during that time you you had a
• 47:07
  conviction that drew you out of it and
• 47:08
  they would probably say me no I did have
• 47:10
  a conviction
• 47:10
  But you you managed to stay in and to be
• 47:12
  in that situation, you've had to draw so
• 47:15
  many barriers of deception and you've
• 47:17
  had to create so many systems to empower
• 47:19
  your bondage while leading people in the
• 47:21
  kingdom. And that to me is a
• 47:23
  manifestation of that spirit which if we
• 47:26
  go through psychological terms pairs
• 47:27
  nicely with the narcissistic
• 47:29
  personality, right? Because uh they kind
• 47:31
  of go hand inand. And so we we never can
• 47:34
  feel like as leaders we're okay simply
• 47:36
  because stuff seems to be working. I
• 47:38
  think that Psalms 51 prayer of David
• 47:41
  creating me a clean heart. That has to
• 47:42
  be first and foremost. And last thing
• 47:44
  with like Jezebel leaders, I think and
• 47:47
  I'm a believer in um God wanting us to
• 47:49
  prosper, God wanting to bless kingdom
• 47:51
  entrepreneurs. God I don't think God
• 47:53
  wants us to build church sanctuaries
• 47:54
  through bake sales. But so I believe in
• 47:57
  like let's raise money to do the things
• 47:59
  in the kingdom of God. I don't have an
• 48:00
  issue with that. But I also think often
• 48:02
  those leaders start to leverage their
• 48:04
  spiritual gifts to extract things from
• 48:06
  people with no concern about their
• 48:08
  well-being.
• 48:09
  >> Yeah, that's really good. The kind of
• 48:12
  underlying theme through your book and
• 48:14
  even this conversation that I'm hearing
• 48:15
  is that this all all ultimately comes
• 48:18
  back to pain.
• 48:20
  >> Sure.
• 48:20
  >> Um in some form or another. And you
• 48:23
  know, it's interesting because this
• 48:24
  supernatural stuff aside,
• 48:27
  obviously, you know, I was drawn to new
• 48:29
  age because I never I never thought in a
• 48:32
  million years walk into a church to
• 48:34
  experience anything supernatural. That
• 48:36
  was never presented to me in any sense
• 48:39
  of the word. But beyond that, you know,
• 48:41
  the Christians that I had in my life,
• 48:44
  they were all very quote unquote normal,
• 48:47
  for lack of a better term. So I I was
• 48:50
  thinking about how you said at the
• 48:51
  beginning like prophets were always
• 48:52
  unusual and even Christians were called
• 48:54
  a peculiar people, right? So there is a
• 48:56
  peculiarity there and for me to never
• 49:00
  see not just the supernatural but the
• 49:03
  realness and the brokenness of the human
• 49:05
  condition, the frailty of the human
• 49:07
  condition in any Christian that I ever
• 49:10
  knew growing up. I never thought I could
• 49:13
  find healing there. I never thought I I
• 49:15
  never thought I could relate to those
• 49:16
  people or talk to those people. And so
• 49:19
  what I'm what I'm getting at is I think
• 49:21
  that at least from what I've experienced
• 49:24
  there is this negligence in the church
• 49:27
  by and large of addressing our wounds,
• 49:31
  addressing our pain and you know
• 49:35
  sometimes a negligence in addressing the
• 49:37
  spirits that we give legal right to
• 49:41
  through that. Um so how have you do you
• 49:45
  I mean do you think that's a problem? Do
• 49:47
  you think that there's not enough
• 49:49
  conversation about like
• 49:52
  you have real wounds? Like you have a
• 49:53
  real past, you have real generational
• 49:56
  curses and real assignments after your
• 49:58
  bloodline that you need to deal with.
• 50:00
  Like you need inner healing, you need
• 50:01
  deliverance. You need these things cuz I
• 50:03
  just don't I just don't see that. I see
• 50:06
  in the churches that I've gone to, at
• 50:07
  least like in Tennessee, it's like you
• 50:09
  get a really great service Sunday
• 50:11
  morning. And I was so excited when I
• 50:12
  moved here at first because, you know, I
• 50:14
  was telling you guys pre-roll, I came
• 50:15
  from Philly. It wasn't there wasn't a
• 50:17
  church on every corner like there is
• 50:18
  here. So I'm like, "Oh, there's an
• 50:20
  abundance." But there's really not
• 50:22
  because they're not talking about like
• 50:24
  the heart and soul of humanity and
• 50:27
  they're not talking about the heart and
• 50:28
  soul of Jesus, which he wants to restore
• 50:31
  and redeem all of that. So I'm kind of
• 50:32
  going on a tangent, but hopefully you
• 50:33
  know what I'm saying.
• 50:34
  >> Yeah, I think it I think it is a
• 50:36
  problem. I think we have trouble
• 50:37
  sometimes being spiritual and emotive at
• 50:41
  the same time. And so it's like to be
• 50:43
  spiritual is to shut down
• 50:46
  >> the emotional side of my personality. Or
• 50:48
  the other extreme would be, you know, a
• 50:50
  church that is hyper emotiondriven and
• 50:54
  not deep spiritually. And so the the
• 50:56
  tension is how do we blend those
• 50:58
  together? And then the other side, which
• 51:00
  is probably what you've experienced, is
• 51:01
  the religious spirit
• 51:03
  >> is basically like let's mask whatever's
• 51:05
  going on, you know, and there's balance
• 51:07
  in that, right? because you don't want
• 51:09
  to reveal your pain to every person you
• 51:12
  meet. I mean, that can be dangerous,
• 51:14
  too. Uh, you've got to know who to trust
• 51:16
  with certain spaces. But I think even
• 51:18
  with leaders that end up falling by the
• 51:21
  wayside, often times there wasn't a
• 51:23
  place in which they were able to really
• 51:26
  go with what started out as a pain. you
• 51:28
  know, I'm I'm leading this group and and
• 51:30
  I feel so unappreciated or I feel this
• 51:33
  way and now I'm being I'm struggling
• 51:35
  with this thought to do this or this
• 51:36
  thing and they there's not a safe place
• 51:39
  to go because we're not comfortable with
• 51:40
  it. That's uncomfortable. It's
• 51:42
  uncomfortable for us to try to be human
• 51:44
  and spiritual at the same time, but
• 51:46
  we're distinctly both, you know, and God
• 51:48
  set it up that way. That that was how
• 51:50
  the garden was. You know, Adam and Eve
• 51:52
  were spirit beings, but they had this
• 51:54
  glory in an earthn vessel. And um Paul
• 51:57
  writes about it, you know, this this
• 51:58
  balance. I always say we have the oil in
• 52:01
  a clay pot and and we want to be oily,
• 52:03
  but we don't want to realize we still
• 52:05
  got clay we're dealing with. And so,
• 52:07
  yes, I do think it's a problem. I think
• 52:09
  it's something that God is raising up. A
• 52:11
  lot of people in your generation um to
• 52:13
  say this is a problem. Like, hey, we we
• 52:15
  have got real issues that we need to
• 52:17
  deal with, life issues. We need to be
• 52:19
  able to be honest about where we're at.
• 52:20
  We need to realize that there's pain.
• 52:22
  You know, I grew up amongst leaders that
• 52:24
  never would admit it was hard or they
• 52:28
  were having a struggle or they they just
• 52:30
  wouldn't talk about those things. It was
• 52:32
  like, I'm the man of God. I'm the woman
• 52:33
  of God and that's it. I respect the fact
• 52:36
  they were trailblazing, but I think
• 52:38
  sometimes it gave us an unrealistic
• 52:40
  picture. I sat in a green room with a
• 52:42
  preacher who's preaches stadiums like
• 52:44
  huge, you know, they do huge things. And
• 52:46
  we were talking about having preached
• 52:49
  and you get back to the hotel or
• 52:50
  wherever you're staying that night and
• 52:51
  you start rehearsing in your brain what
• 52:53
  you preach and all the ways you messed
• 52:54
  up. And this person looked at me and
• 52:56
  said, "You experience that?" I said, "I
• 52:58
  do. I wish I didn't. I don't all the
• 53:00
  time, thank God, but sometimes I do."
• 53:02
  And it's one of the burdens of it. But
• 53:04
  see that conversation this preacher and
• 53:06
  I were having, they couldn't imagine I
• 53:08
  even had those feelings that I never
• 53:10
  would imagine they did
• 53:11
  >> because we've learned how to just like
• 53:13
  we're the man of God, we're the woman of
• 53:14
  God. And as much as we thought that was
• 53:16
  protection, it can become negative.
• 53:18
  >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then it can
• 53:20
  manifest itself in these really
• 53:21
  unhealthy ways where you you find
• 53:23
  yourself in emotionally manipulative
• 53:24
  situations or you have a spirit that's
• 53:27
  kind of taking the driver's seat and
• 53:28
  then overriding what really should be a
• 53:32
  free walk with God. Um, wow. So, okay.
• 53:37
  What
• 53:39
  when this kind of thing shows up, you
• 53:42
  know, it's one thing in the church where
• 53:44
  you can you can leave and find a new
• 53:45
  church obviously. when this kind of
• 53:47
  thing shows up in your own family,
• 53:50
  >> um which probably is often the case for
• 53:52
  a lot of people, speaking of things we
• 53:54
  don't talk about.
• 53:54
  >> Yeah.
• 53:56
  >> What do you how do you advise people
• 53:58
  through that? Like, oh, my mom's super
• 54:00
  emotionally manipulative. My brother's
• 54:02
  super emotionally manipulative because
• 54:03
  you can't necessarily like not have your
• 54:06
  mom anymore. You know what I'm saying?
• 54:08
  So,
• 54:08
  >> well, I think the first thing I always
• 54:10
  tell people, draw back from any
• 54:12
  accusatory language. M
• 54:14
  >> first saved for me would be like I just
• 54:16
  blurt out you got a Jezebel spirit you
• 54:18
  got and then I'd be like see they're
• 54:19
  manifesting they're mad [laughter]
• 54:21
  they're mad at me they're manifesting
• 54:22
  you know um draw back from that because
• 54:25
  you can't once you put a label on
• 54:28
  something you can't retract it and the
• 54:30
  average person doesn't have the ability
• 54:33
  >> to handle that. So the first thing I say
• 54:35
  is when these things come to awareness I
• 54:36
  find that God will allow awareness to
• 54:38
  arise when it becomes a point in our
• 54:41
  lives that he's trying to deal with it.
• 54:42
  So when awareness arises for you, what
• 54:44
  do you mean awareness? I mean, you might
• 54:45
  have the aunt that's always been
• 54:47
  controlling, but you didn't see it. Your
• 54:49
  cousin saw it, everybody else saw it,
• 54:50
  but you didn't see it. It's like, no,
• 54:51
  she just, you know, likes things a
• 54:53
  certain way. But when you start to see
• 54:54
  it, that's God allowing awareness. Okay,
• 54:57
  there's awareness. The first thing I
• 54:59
  want to do with that is I want to take
• 55:00
  that to prayer because if I'm going to
• 55:03
  deal with it, there are two arms of it.
• 55:05
  First of all, I'm dealing with how to be
• 55:09
  healthy myself. And that's where the
• 55:11
  term of boundaries comes in. And that's
• 55:12
  where people get really mad about it.
• 55:13
  And I understand why they get mad about
• 55:15
  it because they have this mindset of,
• 55:16
  you know, Jesus had no boundaries. It's
• 55:18
  really untrue in my mind because you see
• 55:20
  them removed from people.
• 55:22
  >> Why? Why isn't he always traveling with,
• 55:24
  you know, 70? Sometimes he's only
• 55:26
  traveling with the 12 because he knew
• 55:28
  which people could be appropriate for
• 55:30
  which times and which people were able
• 55:32
  to handle certain things, who he needed
• 55:34
  to be around at certain times. And a
• 55:36
  boundary is never to punish somebody.
• 55:38
  That's the problem is we use them in a
• 55:40
  punitive fashion. They're not punitive.
• 55:42
  It's like I'm not throwing a boundary at
• 55:43
  you to punish you. A a healthy boundary
• 55:46
  is I'm learning myself. I'm learning
• 55:49
  like a boundary could be as simple as
• 55:51
  I'm not going to take any phone calls
• 55:52
  until 9:00 a.m. because I've learned I
• 55:54
  do my best work in the morning and I
• 55:55
  need that time. That's a boundary.
• 55:57
  That's not against anybody else. So, I
• 55:59
  think that's number one. And then number
• 56:00
  two, the Lord may be allowing you to
• 56:03
  realize this to also potentially speak
• 56:07
  some things to that family member to
• 56:09
  help them. Now, if I go to them and go,
• 56:11
  you're you're a Jezebel period, like
• 56:14
  obviously that's not going to help them,
• 56:16
  you know, and we've all probably done
• 56:17
  that and that's okay because God has
• 56:19
  grace with us. But what I may what it
• 56:21
  may look like is saying, "Hey, I want to
• 56:22
  have a conversation with you. You know,
• 56:24
  I'm not comfortable with," and you have
• 56:26
  to be very specific. So you don't tell
• 56:28
  somebody, "I'm not comfortable. you
• 56:29
  always want things your way cuz
• 56:30
  immediately they're going to start to
• 56:31
  debate that. What it needs to look like
• 56:33
  is, you know, last Tuesday I had a
• 56:35
  doctor's appointment and I told you I
• 56:36
  couldn't meet you until 1:00 and you had
• 56:39
  your whole day open, but you were
• 56:40
  insisting I get there 12:30. How that
• 56:42
  made me feel was anxious and full of
• 56:44
  stress. I'm racing through town to try
• 56:45
  to get to you and that just doesn't work
• 56:47
  for me. And I've noticed in our
• 56:49
  relationship that's a pattern. you know,
• 56:51
  I think there might be some some
• 56:52
  elements where you may need some healing
• 56:55
  because [clears throat] it seems that
• 56:56
  everything always has to be a certain
• 56:58
  way.
• 56:59
  >> Generally, they're going to be upset
• 57:00
  with that conversation and you leave it
• 57:02
  and you pray for them. And then you have
• 57:04
  to also know and understand it's not
• 57:07
  your job to transform anybody. So, if
• 57:09
  it's in your own family to the the
• 57:11
  question you're asking, how do I deal
• 57:12
  with it? Once I've kind of put what I
• 57:15
  need to happen on the table, they're
• 57:18
  always going to disrespect that two or
• 57:19
  three times because you're you're
• 57:21
  putting a new thing up. So, how you
• 57:23
  enforce that is just distance.
• 57:26
  >> You just don't answer the phone, you
• 57:27
  know, you just don't do the thing. And
• 57:29
  you're teaching them by repetition like
• 57:31
  this is a boundary for me. Wow. And and
• 57:33
  you pray, you know, and you really
• 57:35
  follow the the leading of the Holy
• 57:36
  Spirit. And sometimes I've had people in
• 57:38
  my family that that I just had to
• 57:40
  totally draw the boundary and be like,
• 57:42
  "I'm very unavailable to this person."
• 57:43
  And then I have people that I've had to
• 57:45
  have those hard conversations with. They
• 57:47
  did not like it. They were upset. I left
• 57:49
  it alone. I prayed. And they would
• 57:50
  sometimes come back to me and say, you
• 57:52
  know, I've thought about this and I see
• 57:53
  your point. And it could be a gateway
• 57:55
  for healing. But I think the whole thing
• 57:58
  has to be prayer saturated. And you also
• 58:00
  have to examine like what is the toll
• 58:02
  it's taking on you or like we didn't
• 58:04
  talk about this. What about if you're
• 58:05
  married?
• 58:06
  >> So, you know, a lot of times these type
• 58:08
  of spirits and families happen and
• 58:10
  they'll start creating marital strife.
• 58:12
  And I always teach people you have to
• 58:13
  look at the strength of covenants. So,
• 58:16
  my marital covenant is a higher covenant
• 58:17
  than any other family covenant. So, I I
• 58:20
  don't, you know, if I'm dealing with an
• 58:22
  in-law that's like demanding you have to
• 58:24
  do this, this, this, this, this, and
• 58:25
  it's causing stress for my spouse, then
• 58:28
  I'm going to draw the boundary pretty
• 58:29
  quickly. And if that means there's a
• 58:31
  relational deficit or loss, I'm just
• 58:33
  going to have to be okay with that
• 58:34
  because I'm preserving the strength of
• 58:37
  my family unit. And and that will be
• 58:39
  that way sometimes.
• 58:40
  >> Yeah. And I I think too people can get
• 58:43
  caught up on the
• 58:44
  >> honor your parents thing when it does
• 58:46
  come through the framework of a parent.
• 58:48
  And even if you have um a mom or a dad
• 58:52
  that will use that scripture against
• 58:54
  you, like you're supposed to honor me.
• 58:56
  But honoring is not the same as
• 58:58
  enabling. And I think that that people
• 59:01
  really need to kind of like get that,
• 59:03
  you know, you don't have to enable the
• 59:04
  patterns. You don't have to enable the
• 59:06
  toxicity. Actually, to honor them would
• 59:09
  be to lay the boundary. Now, you just
• 59:11
  touched on marriage. I'm glad you did. I
• 59:13
  I want to hear a little bit more about
• 59:15
  that.
• 59:16
  >> Um cuz the audience is pretty split.
• 59:18
  There are men and women that watch, but
• 59:20
  would you say kind of to lead into this
• 59:23
  that the Jezebel spirit does tend to
• 59:25
  show up more in women than it does men
• 59:27
  or not necessarily?
• 59:28
  >> I I would I don't want to go that far
• 59:30
  out with it. I I think we may associate
• 59:33
  it more there because of the biblical
• 59:35
  history of it, right?
• 59:36
  >> But I think it can I mean I've known as
• 59:38
  many Jezebel leaders that were male as
• 59:40
  female.
• 59:41
  >> Okay.
• 59:41
  >> Uh so I Yeah, I I would say it can
• 59:44
  affect either one.
• 59:45
  >> Okay. Um, now I ask because
• 59:50
  how what would you say to people that
• 59:52
  are in marriages how they could
• 59:54
  recognize
• 59:56
  either their spouse has a Jezebel spirit
• 59:58
  or oops, I have the Jezebel spirit?
• 1:00:01
  >> I mean, I think are you leveraging
• 1:00:04
  roles in a relationship with great
• 1:00:07
  insensitivity on how that affects the
• 1:00:10
  other partner or the spouse? So in other
• 1:00:12
  words, to your point about parents, you
• 1:00:15
  know, like from a male perspective, am I
• 1:00:17
  leveraging, you know, submit to me in a
• 1:00:20
  way that's
• 1:00:21
  >> very unhealthy that I'm not properly
• 1:00:24
  covering my wife spiritually. I'm not
• 1:00:26
  properly um putting her needs front and
• 1:00:29
  center, you know, as Christ loved the
• 1:00:31
  church, but I'm just kind of
• 1:00:32
  cherry-picking this one thing and I'm
• 1:00:34
  using it to dominate with. Um with a a
• 1:00:37
  female, the same can be the same way,
• 1:00:38
  you know, and I think we both know
• 1:00:41
  within context of a marriage, there are
• 1:00:43
  certain strengths we have that we can
• 1:00:45
  leverage to get our desires met with
• 1:00:49
  great disregard for the health of the
• 1:00:50
  other person. And that's to me where it
• 1:00:52
  becomes extremely unhealthy because the
• 1:00:54
  picture that Paul is painting in his
• 1:00:56
  writings is as Christ loves the church
• 1:00:58
  and it's never problematic for me to
• 1:01:00
  submit to somebody that I know has my
• 1:01:02
  best interest at heart. I may not agree
• 1:01:04
  with the decision and I think I always
• 1:01:06
  say that about submission on any level.
• 1:01:08
  It's like it's not hard to submit if I
• 1:01:10
  agree with the decision. It's ultimately
• 1:01:11
  more difficult when I disagree. But like
• 1:01:13
  in my own marriage, my wife knows that
• 1:01:16
  generally I'm not going to make a major
• 1:01:18
  decision that I'm not convinced I've
• 1:01:20
  heard from God. Now, she's often much
• 1:01:22
  more intuitive than I am. And I think
• 1:01:24
  that's can be the case many times with
• 1:01:26
  women. And she will see something I
• 1:01:29
  don't see, and she may bring something
• 1:01:31
  to me. And generally, the way that
• 1:01:33
  pattern is going to work is I'm going to
• 1:01:34
  immediately resist it. Cuz if I want to
• 1:01:36
  do this thing, and she's throwing up a
• 1:01:39
  concern, that's going to feel to me
• 1:01:40
  like, you know, you're controlling me
• 1:01:41
  and like and I'm I'm going to kind of
• 1:01:44
  break that. But eventually, because I
• 1:01:47
  know again like the root of it is she
• 1:01:48
  cares for me. and she doesn't want to
• 1:01:51
  see something that's detrimental to me
• 1:01:53
  or to our lives, I'm usually going to
• 1:01:55
  land back at, hey, there's truth in what
• 1:01:57
  you're saying. And I appreciate the fact
• 1:01:59
  you brought it. So, I think ultimately
• 1:02:01
  the the crux of it in a marriage is I'm
• 1:02:04
  not trying to get something from you
• 1:02:06
  that's detrimental for you, if that
• 1:02:08
  makes sense.
• 1:02:09
  >> Yeah, it does.
• 1:02:09
  >> You know, and I'm not trying to use a
• 1:02:12
  spiritual position to force you to do
• 1:02:15
  something that's really detrimental to
• 1:02:17
  you. And I think both parties are going
• 1:02:20
  to have those moments where you have to
• 1:02:22
  yield on something because it's it's
• 1:02:23
  detrimental to the other person.
• 1:02:25
  >> Yeah, it's really good. Now, I think a
• 1:02:28
  lot of the time it's well, we see this
• 1:02:29
  biblically. You're always looking at the
• 1:02:33
  speck in your brother's eye instead of
• 1:02:34
  the log in your own. So,
• 1:02:36
  >> it's one thing to discern this in other
• 1:02:37
  people, but it's a completely different
• 1:02:39
  thing to discern it in yourself. And so,
• 1:02:42
  you know, two things can be true. You
• 1:02:44
  can have a Jezebel spirit. You can have
• 1:02:46
  a spirit of rejection that continually
• 1:02:49
  brings you into situations where other
• 1:02:51
  people will manipulate you, other people
• 1:02:53
  will reject you. Or on the flip side of
• 1:02:56
  that, there is an assignment on you
• 1:02:58
  where that will come from the outside.
• 1:03:00
  So how do how do we discern the
• 1:03:02
  difference between this is something I'm
• 1:03:04
  dealing with internally, I need
• 1:03:05
  deliverance from, I need healing from
• 1:03:07
  versus this is something that I need to
• 1:03:09
  be vigilant to like armor up against
• 1:03:12
  against. So I think when it's coming
• 1:03:14
  internally, your reaction to it is so
• 1:03:16
  much more severe. It's like the storm is
• 1:03:19
  not brewing externally. It's brewing
• 1:03:21
  internally. You're in a state of
• 1:03:23
  volatility all the time. When it's
• 1:03:25
  coming out here,
• 1:03:27
  >> the volatility is around me, but I have
• 1:03:29
  the ability to shelter from it.
• 1:03:31
  >> But when it's in here,
• 1:03:33
  >> I'm hosting the volatility. And it's
• 1:03:35
  like it's ne never I see people that
• 1:03:37
  have that type of those spirit of
• 1:03:39
  rejection, Jezebel spirit. They're
• 1:03:41
  always in some level of crisis, you
• 1:03:44
  know. And let me say this, leaders by
• 1:03:46
  nature are going to be invited into
• 1:03:48
  crisis because at the core definition of
• 1:03:50
  leadership is an ability to withstand
• 1:03:52
  things that others cannot. So you are,
• 1:03:55
  you know, God's answer to crisis or his
• 1:03:57
  solution is always leadership. And we
• 1:03:59
  see this biblically. Every time there's
• 1:04:01
  a crisis, he raises up somebody. When
• 1:04:03
  there's crisis organizationally, he
• 1:04:04
  raises up other people within the
• 1:04:06
  organization. So as leaders, we are
• 1:04:09
  going to be invited into crisis. But I'm
• 1:04:12
  not talking about that. I'm talking
• 1:04:13
  about
• 1:04:14
  >> there's always this repetitious pattern
• 1:04:17
  of storms. And I have found that people
• 1:04:19
  who actually have the the spirit,
• 1:04:22
  >> they're always pointing at everybody
• 1:04:24
  else. So like one of my first ways of
• 1:04:26
  diagnostic is when you like they have
• 1:04:29
  this, they have this, they have this,
• 1:04:30
  they have this, they have this, they
• 1:04:31
  have this. That's a warning to me
• 1:04:32
  because you're in all the crisis you're
• 1:04:35
  going through, you don't find anything
• 1:04:37
  that you should have done differently,
• 1:04:39
  could have done differently, or even any
• 1:04:40
  lesson that's very problematic and that
• 1:04:42
  would be an indicator to me of
• 1:04:44
  deception. You know, I remember a few
• 1:04:45
  years ago, wow,
• 1:04:46
  >> I went through a crisis in ministry. Um,
• 1:04:49
  without going into too much detail, it
• 1:04:51
  just it tried to destroy me. It was uh
• 1:04:54
  like a church split collapse and it was
• 1:04:56
  through somebody I deeply trusted, had
• 1:04:58
  very deep relationship with. And I
• 1:05:00
  remember in the middle of all of that,
• 1:05:01
  of the process of it, it was the easiest
• 1:05:04
  thing was for me to put my eyes on
• 1:05:06
  everything they did or didn't do, but it
• 1:05:08
  was also the unhealthiest thing because
• 1:05:09
  it's like I'm just focused on this pain.
• 1:05:12
  And I started to feel invited by the
• 1:05:14
  Lord to go inward and say, okay, where
• 1:05:16
  in this could I have done something
• 1:05:18
  differently or better? And I remember
• 1:05:19
  one of the things I had to deal with is
• 1:05:21
  some of my own family members, uh, not
• 1:05:23
  my wife, but others when I would be
• 1:05:25
  sharing with them, the Lord really dealt
• 1:05:26
  with me. I could have done this
• 1:05:27
  differently. They would immediately try
• 1:05:29
  to point me back to the people and I
• 1:05:31
  said, you know, I already have settled
• 1:05:32
  in my heart I don't agree with what
• 1:05:34
  they've done. And I'm prophetic enough
• 1:05:35
  to see the spirit behind it. But there's
• 1:05:37
  no lesson for me in that. The lesson for
• 1:05:40
  me is in here. I don't want to be in
• 1:05:43
  this situation again. So, I need to grow
• 1:05:46
  through this. And I I find when you're
• 1:05:48
  hosting the issue, you don't have that
• 1:05:50
  kind of clarity. So, anytime you're able
• 1:05:53
  to soberly look at the thing and go,
• 1:05:55
  Lord, I'm in the middle of this and I
• 1:05:58
  repent for whatever role I've played in
• 1:06:00
  this and I want help. I want to grow. I
• 1:06:02
  want to learn. And you start praying for
• 1:06:04
  the other people that have wronged you
• 1:06:06
  in any capacity. That'd be a sure sign
• 1:06:08
  to me like it's not an internal thing.
• 1:06:09
  But when you're masterfully, and you
• 1:06:12
  kind of mentioned this earlier about a
• 1:06:13
  person you dealt with, you're
• 1:06:14
  masterfully floating through life and
• 1:06:16
  everything is everybody else's fault and
• 1:06:17
  you're never to blame anything, but yet
• 1:06:19
  you have the repetitious cycles of
• 1:06:20
  things. That's a danger sign to me.
• 1:06:23
  >> So, what are some ways that you think
• 1:06:25
  people can start um taking personal
• 1:06:27
  inventory on that? Because I know for
• 1:06:30
  me, deliverance has been such a
• 1:06:34
  necessary component of my sanctification
• 1:06:38
  because of not not just like the trauma
• 1:06:40
  from my own upbringing and the
• 1:06:41
  generational curses and all those sorts
• 1:06:43
  of things that I brought in through my
• 1:06:45
  soul with me once I was born again, but
• 1:06:48
  because of obviously my background in
• 1:06:50
  witchcraft and like the plethora of
• 1:06:52
  doors that I opened. So, I had to get to
• 1:06:55
  a place where I was willing to first of
• 1:06:57
  all admit that I was wrong about
• 1:06:58
  deliverance to begin with because there
• 1:07:00
  was a time I was like, "Nope, that's
• 1:07:01
  completely demonic. That's not a thing."
• 1:07:04
  And then two,
• 1:07:06
  it just be willing to admit that
• 1:07:08
  >> even though I was saved and I was a new
• 1:07:11
  creation, going back to the whole the
• 1:07:13
  pain thing that we were talking about,
• 1:07:15
  there were there were wounds there
• 1:07:17
  >> that I needed to admit, hey Lord, I need
• 1:07:20
  you. I need you to come in and deal with
• 1:07:22
  this in ways that I tried to for decades
• 1:07:26
  through the witchcraft modalities and
• 1:07:28
  through the self-help culture and all
• 1:07:30
  these things. So, how do how do we how
• 1:07:33
  do we begin to kind of look inward and
• 1:07:36
  and and recognize like maybe I do have
• 1:07:39
  this spirit, you know, what are some
• 1:07:40
  speaking of patterns like generationally
• 1:07:43
  or just, you know, things that we have
• 1:07:45
  come out of that could indicate maybe I
• 1:07:47
  do have a spirit of rejection, maybe I
• 1:07:48
  do have a spirit of religion, maybe I do
• 1:07:50
  have a Jezebel spirit that I need
• 1:07:51
  deliverance and healing from.
• 1:07:53
  >> Yeah. I I think you touch on the first
• 1:07:55
  thing is patterns. So we want to look at
• 1:07:57
  are there patterns that that ripple
• 1:07:59
  through our family like for example in
• 1:08:01
  my mother's family there's a real
• 1:08:03
  pattern of addiction so I can see it
• 1:08:06
  going through aunts uncles cousins
• 1:08:08
  relatives along with that pattern I see
• 1:08:11
  mental attacks going through people so
• 1:08:13
  it's like okay here's two patterns just
• 1:08:14
  on that one side of the family go to my
• 1:08:16
  father's side it's another so looking at
• 1:08:18
  that right then looking at how have
• 1:08:20
  those patterns possibly showed up in my
• 1:08:22
  life and understanding that that demon
• 1:08:25
  Human powers operate in a cyclical
• 1:08:27
  nature. You you continue to see cycles.
• 1:08:30
  >> Yeah.
• 1:08:31
  >> You know, all the time. And so the cycle
• 1:08:33
  may be every year, maybe every 3 years,
• 1:08:35
  maybe every 5 years, maybe every six
• 1:08:36
  months, but in your own life, you serve
• 1:08:38
  to see it. And so it's it's pausing
• 1:08:40
  because part of the deception is
• 1:08:42
  >> you're so busy with the thing that you
• 1:08:45
  don't pause to like really reflect. And
• 1:08:47
  and we're living in a generation and and
• 1:08:49
  I think we have to teach this as part of
• 1:08:51
  our journey spiritually because like I
• 1:08:53
  used to be in this place that I love to
• 1:08:55
  pray. I love to worship God. But I
• 1:08:57
  really didn't like to be quiet. So like
• 1:08:59
  I like to pray and I like to worship but
• 1:09:02
  I wasn't just sitting. I didn't really
• 1:09:04
  start sitting until I started dealing
• 1:09:06
  with my mind. And I realized, you know,
• 1:09:09
  some of my spirituality was an escape
• 1:09:12
  mechanism in a sense because if I could
• 1:09:15
  feel the anointing, I wasn't feeling
• 1:09:16
  what was going on in my mind. But if I
• 1:09:18
  got quiet, the music is off. My wife
• 1:09:21
  gets she don't like it because I'll sit
• 1:09:23
  sometimes in the quiet long periods of
• 1:09:25
  time. But this has been a part of my
• 1:09:27
  growth journey because now I can sit and
• 1:09:29
  be quiet and be with me
• 1:09:31
  >> and I can check in with me and realize
• 1:09:33
  like Ryan is not good today. But we get
• 1:09:36
  in a pattern of running and we can do it
• 1:09:38
  in spiritual things. I'm running to my
• 1:09:40
  Bible study. And I don't mean running to
• 1:09:42
  a physical. Running in your home. I'm
• 1:09:43
  running. I got to read four chapters.
• 1:09:46
  And we're going. We're going. We're
• 1:09:47
  going. We're going. We're not even
• 1:09:48
  taking the time. So if I sit with myself
• 1:09:51
  and look at, you know, where am I at?
• 1:09:53
  >> Well, I'm frustrated. Okay. Why am I
• 1:09:55
  frustrated? Well, I was frustrated six
• 1:09:56
  months ago and then I did better and
• 1:09:59
  then I got frustrated six months. Like I
• 1:10:01
  was going through a pattern of uh little
• 1:10:03
  mini meltdowns that I thought was
• 1:10:05
  spiritual warfare. When I say mini
• 1:10:07
  meltdown, I wasn't [clears throat] doing
• 1:10:08
  anything crazy, but I was just I just
• 1:10:09
  get frustrated, be short with people,
• 1:10:11
  you know, I I I want to quit the world
• 1:10:13
  and just go to and um I started to see a
• 1:10:17
  counselor. And the counselor said,
• 1:10:19
  >> "What's happening before that?"
• 1:10:21
  >> Wow.
• 1:10:22
  >> And I started to look at it's a pattern.
• 1:10:24
  when I would not rest and I would go for
• 1:10:27
  certain amounts of time without rest,
• 1:10:29
  this is what would happen. And so I was
• 1:10:31
  like, "Oh my gosh, yeah, it's demonic
• 1:10:33
  because my guard is coming down." So I'm
• 1:10:35
  letting spirits of anger, offense, all
• 1:10:37
  these demons come in.
• 1:10:39
  >> But the real issue is I don't know my
• 1:10:41
  rhythms. I don't know the amount of rest
• 1:10:43
  I need, the amount of solace I need. I
• 1:10:45
  don't know the amount of activity that I
• 1:10:47
  can handle. So if I deal with that part
• 1:10:49
  of it, I'm gonna fix the other part. But
• 1:10:51
  I didn't come to that without awareness.
• 1:10:53
  So I think looking at the cycles, what's
• 1:10:56
  repetitious in you? What's repetitious
• 1:10:58
  in your family? Learning to have quiet
• 1:11:00
  time to sit to really sit and and let
• 1:11:03
  your mind go wherever it goes. And
• 1:11:04
  that'll be re revelation to you. Oh my
• 1:11:06
  gosh, my mind goes over here all the
• 1:11:07
  time. That's not that's not a healthy
• 1:11:09
  thing. I need to to work on that and
• 1:11:11
  understand you touched on that demons
• 1:11:12
  have mindsets. I think, you know, I came
• 1:11:14
  up in an era of we cast devils out of
• 1:11:17
  people with great passion, and I still
• 1:11:20
  do, but we almost just left people's
• 1:11:22
  minds completely unchecked. And it was
• 1:11:25
  like, you know, why is this person
• 1:11:27
  needing deliverance for the same thing
• 1:11:28
  15 times? Well, because the demon had a
• 1:11:30
  mindset. Because if a demon is a
• 1:11:32
  personality without a body, a
• 1:11:34
  personality is it's a code of conduct
• 1:11:37
  really. And so when that demon gains
• 1:11:39
  influence, which usually happens through
• 1:11:41
  trauma, this is why we have to teach on
• 1:11:43
  trauma and we have to ask the Holy
• 1:11:45
  Spirit to give us insight on trauma and
• 1:11:47
  we have to understand that the how to
• 1:11:49
  invite Jesus in the middle of that
• 1:11:50
  trauma. But it happens through trauma
• 1:11:52
  which then puts a false identity could
• 1:11:54
  be any identity, a victim identity. It'd
• 1:11:56
  be an identity of some perversion
• 1:11:58
  because of sexual abuse and molestation.
• 1:12:00
  Could be any any identity in the world.
• 1:12:02
  Um but it's introduced and then there's
• 1:12:04
  a mindset that goes along with that. And
• 1:12:05
  so we literally cast out the spirit
• 1:12:08
  which is occupying the house of the body
• 1:12:11
  >> but the mind still contains the conduct
• 1:12:14
  code. So, the spirit got cast out on
• 1:12:16
  Tuesday. But by Tuesday evening, when I
• 1:12:19
  get frustrated with somebody in the
• 1:12:21
  drive-thru, what comes up? The conduct
• 1:12:24
  code that's attached to that way of
• 1:12:25
  thinking because that spirit wrote,
• 1:12:28
  think of like coding in a computer
• 1:12:29
  sense. It wrote that code. And so, I
• 1:12:32
  have to go through the process now. And
• 1:12:33
  this is where disciplehip comes in.
• 1:12:35
  >> Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:12:36
  >> It's the process of dismantling. And
• 1:12:37
  it's it's the worst most uncomfortable
• 1:12:40
  thing in the world because we're
• 1:12:41
  actually confronting things that feel
• 1:12:43
  like they're a part of us because they
• 1:12:44
  are.
• 1:12:45
  >> Yeah.
• 1:12:45
  >> It was been written into our soul, you
• 1:12:47
  know. And so there's an awareness and an
• 1:12:48
  invitation into a whole different way of
• 1:12:51
  living
• 1:12:52
  >> if I get free. But the deception is I'm
• 1:12:55
  going to point it out here to everybody
• 1:12:57
  else. You know, I'm not a prophet
• 1:12:59
  because of my pastor. I'm not a prophet
• 1:13:01
  because my ex spouse. I'm not a prophet.
• 1:13:03
  No, no, no, no. something in you keeps
• 1:13:06
  to reproduce this cycle. And so if
• 1:13:09
  you'll sit with that and say this is the
• 1:13:12
  thing that helped me, I have no power as
• 1:13:15
  a human being to change anybody else.
• 1:13:19
  >> Now don't hear what I didn't say.
• 1:13:21
  Through the power of Christ and the
• 1:13:23
  anointing of God, people's lives are
• 1:13:24
  changed daily. But when I take
• 1:13:27
  responsibility for your choices, I
• 1:13:31
  completely partner with all kinds of
• 1:13:32
  spirits. I partner with spirits of
• 1:13:34
  anxiety because I'm anxious about what
• 1:13:35
  are you going to do? I partner with
• 1:13:37
  spirits of control because I'm trying to
• 1:13:39
  control what you're going to do. I
• 1:13:40
  partner spirits of religion because I
• 1:13:41
  don't understand grace and I don't
• 1:13:43
  understand the father. And so once I let
• 1:13:45
  go of that, like to the family point,
• 1:13:47
  it's not my responsibility to change
• 1:13:50
  everybody in my family. It is my
• 1:13:51
  responsibility to share the seed of the
• 1:13:52
  gospel with them 100%.
• 1:13:54
  >> 100%. It's my responsibility to love
• 1:13:56
  them. It's my responsibility to do
• 1:13:58
  whatever I need to do biblically with
• 1:13:59
  them, but it's not my responsibility to
• 1:14:01
  force change in them. And once I let go
• 1:14:03
  of that, that leaves me with me. And
• 1:14:05
  once I'm with me, I can now sit and
• 1:14:07
  reflect and look at those patterns and
• 1:14:09
  say, "Okay, Lord."
• 1:14:10
  >> So good.
• 1:14:10
  >> I keep having this issue again and again
• 1:14:12
  and again. Now, if I go all the way
• 1:14:14
  back, and this is one practice I've put
• 1:14:16
  in recently, like, so growing up, the
• 1:14:19
  way I grew up, one of the big spirits I
• 1:14:21
  would deal with was a spirit of
• 1:14:22
  rejection.
• 1:14:23
  >> Okay, this I mean, I've known this for
• 1:14:24
  years. People have cast it out. I've
• 1:14:26
  cast it out. You know, all the things,
• 1:14:28
  right?
• 1:14:29
  >> Meditated scriptures, all the things.
• 1:14:31
  But I'll be in a situation today at 51
• 1:14:34
  years of living
• 1:14:36
  >> and somebody do something and I will
• 1:14:38
  have a response to it.
• 1:14:40
  >> I usually don't recognize it in the
• 1:14:41
  beginning of the response. I usually get
• 1:14:42
  pretty far in the response and then
• 1:14:44
  something goes, who's talking?
• 1:14:47
  And if I'm honest, who's talking is the
• 1:14:50
  little boy whose father left.
• 1:14:52
  >> Wow. And and I have to go, okay, little
• 1:14:56
  boy, I love you and God loves you when
• 1:14:58
  he left, but you're not the person in
• 1:15:01
  charge because that's the part of my
• 1:15:03
  mind that wants to rise up. And if I let
• 1:15:06
  it, you'll partner with that spirit of
• 1:15:07
  rejection and I'll be doing crazy stuff.
• 1:15:10
  >> That's so good. You you answered a
• 1:15:12
  question I was going to ask you because,
• 1:15:14
  you know, obviously deliver, like I
• 1:15:16
  said, deliverance has been huge for me,
• 1:15:18
  but it does not just end with like
• 1:15:21
  casting out the demon.
• 1:15:22
  >> Yeah. Yeah. Like you have to walk
• 1:15:24
  through.
• 1:15:25
  >> That's kind of the cool and the fun
• 1:15:26
  part.
• 1:15:26
  >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, because now well, once
• 1:15:29
  the spirit is cast out, now you can
• 1:15:32
  crucify your flesh. Now you can renew
• 1:15:34
  your mind. Now you can implement
• 1:15:36
  discipline. Um because you know, you
• 1:15:38
  can't discipline the mind of a demon
• 1:15:40
  obviously. So it does it it's both. And
• 1:15:43
  it's never like one or the other. It's
• 1:15:44
  always both. And there's going to be the
• 1:15:47
  strongholds like I said at the very
• 1:15:49
  beginning that you need to tear down.
• 1:15:51
  But if there's a demon like that that's
• 1:15:53
  that's taken up residence within that,
• 1:15:55
  you're not going to be able to tear it
• 1:15:57
  down. Like you need to cast it out first
• 1:15:58
  and then once it's out, then you have
• 1:15:59
  the responsibility to renew your mind in
• 1:16:01
  that. Um, so yeah, just just so good.
• 1:16:04
  Um, something I wanted to ask you
• 1:16:07
  because you're right, it's it's totally
• 1:16:10
  it's totally like a projection thing and
• 1:16:13
  it's a it's a whole other thing to say,
• 1:16:15
  okay, well, what about me? So, what
• 1:16:17
  would you say maybe a quick kind of
• 1:16:22
  heart check? Some things that would run
• 1:16:24
  through a person's mind who isn't in
• 1:16:28
  this place of repeating these same
• 1:16:29
  patterns where maybe they're the
• 1:16:30
  emotional manipulator or they're okay
• 1:16:32
  the one with the Jezebel spirit. What
• 1:16:34
  are some things like what what's an
• 1:16:36
  internal narrative maybe like three
• 1:16:37
  things that you could say this is what I
• 1:16:40
  believe about myself and I believe about
• 1:16:42
  other people that could be a telltale
• 1:16:43
  sign. Oh, you have a Jezebel spirit.
• 1:16:45
  Yeah, I think the telltale sign would be
• 1:16:48
  they're always doing it to me
• 1:16:51
  >> and it's always their fault.
• 1:16:54
  >> If that's my default,
• 1:16:56
  >> that would be a telltale sign because it
• 1:16:58
  just cannot be true.
• 1:17:00
  >> You know, even in the example I gave of
• 1:17:01
  the trauma I went through with this
• 1:17:02
  church thing,
• 1:17:04
  >> I can confidently say now years later,
• 1:17:06
  it was totally the devil. I still very
• 1:17:08
  much disagree with decisions made by
• 1:17:10
  people and I would be so bold to say I
• 1:17:12
  believe they yielded to a demonic
• 1:17:14
  spirit. However, there were things as a
• 1:17:16
  leader that I did that facilitated some
• 1:17:20
  of that that if I was back in that same
• 1:17:22
  situation today, I would do differently.
• 1:17:24
  And what to me would have been the very
• 1:17:27
  unhealthy thing to do is to just camp
• 1:17:28
  out and you you you and even in that
• 1:17:31
  scenario, you know, I it was a piece of
• 1:17:34
  my life's work that was basically in my
• 1:17:35
  mind destroyed. Now I have a completely
• 1:17:37
  different respect about it today because
• 1:17:39
  >> you nobody can really destroy those
• 1:17:41
  things.
• 1:17:42
  >> Yeah. So, so sometimes the end of a
• 1:17:44
  thing is the genesis of another thing
• 1:17:47
  >> and God will use all of it.
• 1:17:48
  >> Yeah. And and and at the time I couldn't
• 1:17:50
  see that, you know, but I can now. But
• 1:17:52
  my wife uh when I started to get on the
• 1:17:54
  other side of that, my wife had a dream.
• 1:17:56
  She came to me and she was like, "I had
• 1:17:57
  a dream
• 1:17:58
  >> and in the dream you went back and you
• 1:17:59
  met with a group of people that were
• 1:18:01
  involved in that and you apologized to
• 1:18:02
  them." I said, "Look, I don't know what
• 1:18:04
  kind of thing was going on with you and
• 1:18:05
  you had that dream, but I know you were
• 1:18:07
  not hearing from God like because that
• 1:18:08
  is not happening."
• 1:18:09
  >> And I couldn't shake it. It was like the
• 1:18:12
  Holy Spirit was saying, "Ryan, I want
• 1:18:15
  you to do that." And I and I had to
• 1:18:17
  argue the case of like, "But I don't
• 1:18:19
  feel like I did this thing." You know, I
• 1:18:22
  I don't if I apologize. And the Lord's
• 1:18:24
  like, "It's not about that. It's about
• 1:18:27
  reconciliation in a sense of not
• 1:18:28
  reconciliation like we're going to go
• 1:18:30
  hang out and do cuz certain things
• 1:18:32
  happen relationally. It changes the
• 1:18:35
  dynamics." But it was about like I'm
• 1:18:38
  going to close any door the enemy has
• 1:18:41
  into my life
• 1:18:42
  >> and and if I caused you a hurt as a
• 1:18:45
  leader, I want to I want to say that was
• 1:18:47
  not my intention. We could get in all
• 1:18:49
  kind of debates about whether you should
• 1:18:50
  have been hurt or not. That's not the
• 1:18:51
  important thing. And so I actually did
• 1:18:53
  that. Now a lot of the people involved
• 1:18:54
  didn't come to the the the uh
• 1:18:56
  conversation we had, but some did and it
• 1:18:58
  was extremely meaningful. And I left
• 1:19:00
  there uh in in a whole different place.
• 1:19:03
  What it wasn't, it wasn't like good
• 1:19:06
  closure for me. And this was the thing
• 1:19:08
  also I had to learn in these situations.
• 1:19:10
  You got to sometimes let go of that cuz
• 1:19:11
  because sometimes closure is really like
• 1:19:13
  control in disguise. Like we'll say we
• 1:19:16
  want closure.
• 1:19:16
  >> Wow. Okay. That hit.
• 1:19:18
  >> Yeah. We want closure. And I I had to
• 1:19:21
  have a therapist tell me that. He was
• 1:19:22
  like, "Ryan, basically you want to tie
• 1:19:23
  it up in a nice bow, but it's about
• 1:19:26
  you." I actually so my spiritual father
• 1:19:28
  sitting over there like the person I was
• 1:19:30
  talking about I was like to him I'm like
• 1:19:33
  shouldn't I just like reach out like the
• 1:19:34
  same girl I'm talking shouldn't I just
• 1:19:35
  like reach out and say like hey you know
• 1:19:38
  like maybe I just need some closure he's
• 1:19:39
  like why do you need that you don't need
• 1:19:41
  that [laughter]
• 1:19:42
  >> because I never did I never did by the
• 1:19:44
  way
• 1:19:44
  >> your your mind is struggling to want to
• 1:19:46
  feel better
• 1:19:48
  >> and and and that goes back to whatever
• 1:19:50
  the root system is right and so when I
• 1:19:52
  had that meeting you know there was one
• 1:19:53
  person in the meeting that in the middle
• 1:19:55
  of the meeting started to speak up and
• 1:19:57
  spin a narrative that was completely not
• 1:19:59
  good. And I could feel for a split
• 1:20:02
  second me wanting to defend me and the
• 1:20:04
  Lord was like, "It's not necessary." And
• 1:20:07
  and so I just I said, "Okay, well, you
• 1:20:09
  know, that wasn't my perspective. I
• 1:20:11
  appreciate that it was yours. How can we
• 1:20:12
  move forward?" And somebody came to me
• 1:20:14
  afterwards. It was like, "I can't
• 1:20:15
  believe how you handled that." And I was
• 1:20:16
  like, "It wasn't me handling. It was
• 1:20:18
  God." Because my focus was, Lord, I
• 1:20:21
  don't want anything in me that is an
• 1:20:22
  open door. And I think that's that's
• 1:20:24
  when when we start to get free. So if we
• 1:20:27
  have the spirit, we're always going you
• 1:20:29
  you you you. And the big narrative is
• 1:20:31
  me. It's everybody did this to me.
• 1:20:34
  Everybody has attacked me. Everybody has
• 1:20:37
  let me down. And while in some people's
• 1:20:39
  stories, those things can be true and
• 1:20:41
  I'm not invalidating that.
• 1:20:43
  >> You asked me the question of if you have
• 1:20:45
  these spirits, what's a telltale sign?
• 1:20:47
  That is a telltale sign.
• 1:20:48
  >> Yeah, that's really good. And you know,
• 1:20:50
  kind of back to what we were talking
• 1:20:51
  about earlier, how I said I was really
• 1:20:53
  shocked when this I started to notice
• 1:20:56
  that Christian relationships can have
• 1:20:58
  the same kind of implications as the
• 1:21:00
  ones in the world do. Now that I am born
• 1:21:03
  again and and I have walked through
• 1:21:04
  deliverance, I have walked through
• 1:21:06
  healing. I have walked through all these
• 1:21:07
  things. I had a moment with myself a
• 1:21:08
  couple months ago where I realized, oh,
• 1:21:11
  the people that have hurt me on my faith
• 1:21:14
  walk, I actually haven't reached back
• 1:21:17
  out. And that is that is a pattern that
• 1:21:20
  I would always do when I was in the
• 1:21:21
  world. I always had to be the one to
• 1:21:23
  reach back out. I always had to try and
• 1:21:24
  build a bridge back. I always had to try
• 1:21:26
  and, you know, gain some sort of
• 1:21:28
  semblance of closure. And I recognize
• 1:21:31
  like, okay, emotional maturity is
• 1:21:34
  happening, but it's deeper than that.
• 1:21:35
  It's actually I I know who I am in
• 1:21:37
  Christ now, and I know that he doesn't
• 1:21:40
  want me to go back to the vomit, you
• 1:21:42
  know, for lack of a better expression.
• 1:21:44
  and he doesn't want me to go back to
• 1:21:45
  that because I'm actually his daughter
• 1:21:47
  and he doesn't want me to get hurt and
• 1:21:49
  he loves me and so I see myself
• 1:21:53
  through his eyes now and and it's just
• 1:21:55
  like I mean when you have those moments
• 1:21:58
  with yourself where you recognize your
• 1:21:59
  growth in Christ it's amazing and you
• 1:22:02
  can see in hindsight why he does allow
• 1:22:04
  certain things to happen. Um because if
• 1:22:06
  I had never gone through XYZ
• 1:22:09
  situations that I had been through, I
• 1:22:12
  wouldn't have had the awareness to deal
• 1:22:13
  with my contributions to it.
• 1:22:16
  >> And I probably would have found myself
• 1:22:19
  in the same situation over and over and
• 1:22:22
  over again. And I would have continued
• 1:22:25
  to expose this person on my platform
• 1:22:27
  that the Lord has entrusted me to
• 1:22:29
  steward. And that would not have been
• 1:22:30
  good for the stewardship of the people
• 1:22:33
  that I was exposing her to. So there's
• 1:22:35
  just so many ways that God uses all of
• 1:22:37
  these things. So I guess like as we
• 1:22:39
  start to wrap up, let's let's kind of
• 1:22:40
  talk about that point of emotional
• 1:22:42
  maturity. How
• 1:22:44
  um how do you how do you get from one
• 1:22:47
  place to the next? Obviously, you can't
• 1:22:50
  do it absent from Christ, but how do you
• 1:22:51
  get from that like victim to victor
• 1:22:54
  mindset and start to cultivate emotional
• 1:22:57
  maturity?
• 1:22:58
  >> I think you touched on a big thing and I
• 1:23:00
  say it's the Romans 8:28 principle. that
• 1:23:02
  scripture that said God causes all
• 1:23:04
  things to work together for good to them
• 1:23:05
  that love God called according to his
• 1:23:06
  purpose. That realization of like every
• 1:23:10
  tension, every crisis, every mountain,
• 1:23:13
  every valley, it's a part of the story.
• 1:23:16
  And and I struggled with that for years
• 1:23:18
  because fundamentally I really adhere to
• 1:23:20
  the concept of every good and perfect
• 1:23:22
  gift comes down from the father of
• 1:23:24
  lights, from God. So when these other
• 1:23:26
  things are happening, it's very easy for
• 1:23:28
  me to go this is demonic. And I don't my
• 1:23:30
  theology on that has not changed. What's
• 1:23:32
  changed is the perspective of in God's
• 1:23:35
  providence and omni presence he's able
• 1:23:37
  to work in each of those spaces and
• 1:23:39
  seasons and that there's goodness
• 1:23:42
  >> to be found in every situation every
• 1:23:44
  season. And I think that becomes a
• 1:23:46
  starting point.
• 1:23:48
  >> I also think particularly dealing with
• 1:23:50
  our emotions. You look at Luke 4:18 and
• 1:23:53
  19 when Jesus preaches his inaugural
• 1:23:55
  message and he talks about coming to
• 1:23:57
  heal the brokenhearted. We look at Jesus
• 1:24:00
  being represented in typology as the
• 1:24:02
  good shepherd which a shepherd leads
• 1:24:04
  sheep beside still waters. Still waters
• 1:24:05
  is a place of tranquility. So the nature
• 1:24:08
  of the presence of Jesus in my life is
• 1:24:10
  to bring me to a place of healing. And
• 1:24:13
  the more that I host him in my life, the
• 1:24:16
  more whole I become. I have to
• 1:24:18
  understand like Jesus is intricately
• 1:24:20
  involved in the process of my humanity,
• 1:24:23
  of my soul, of my condition. And he
• 1:24:26
  wants to be invited into the most
• 1:24:27
  painful places because I I don't know if
• 1:24:29
  everybody else would do this, but I
• 1:24:30
  would kind of do this. I would take a
• 1:24:32
  place in my mind and I would just like
• 1:24:34
  cover it up. It'd be like, you know, I'm
• 1:24:36
  going to bring Jesus this this this, but
• 1:24:38
  not this.
• 1:24:39
  >> And it wasn't like I was saying that
• 1:24:40
  from a prideful. It was just like this
• 1:24:42
  is dark and I don't think Jesus wants to
• 1:24:44
  see that, you know, and and really to
• 1:24:46
  get healed. It's like no, he's okay.
• 1:24:49
  Like he's not scared. And I think this
• 1:24:52
  goes back to us shutting down pain in
• 1:24:55
  church is that we're scared of stuff.
• 1:24:57
  Like there's certain stuff that scares
• 1:24:58
  us. You know, certain things if you've
• 1:25:00
  never dealt with it and someone's
• 1:25:01
  dealing with it and it's in front of
• 1:25:02
  you, it scares you. And so we think
• 1:25:05
  Jesus is like that and he's not. And so
• 1:25:07
  I think it's that really allowing him
• 1:25:09
  into those spaces. And then I also think
• 1:25:12
  it's a major uh learning curve on the
• 1:25:15
  grace of God because I think sometimes
• 1:25:17
  we're so hard on ourselves and that can
• 1:25:19
  come too from childhood wounds if people
• 1:25:21
  were hard. I was in my mentoring group.
• 1:25:23
  There was a lady that was talking and
• 1:25:24
  she was talking about
• 1:25:26
  >> why can't she seem to step out? So I
• 1:25:29
  asked her a question. This was live. I
• 1:25:31
  said um who didn't affirm you?
• 1:25:34
  >> And she said what do you mean? I said
• 1:25:36
  there's someone's voice that didn't show
• 1:25:37
  up for you and I need to know who it is.
• 1:25:40
  So she gave me a around the world tour
• 1:25:42
  of her life, you know, well this this
• 1:25:43
  this and it all sounded good. And then I
• 1:25:45
  just let her talk because I know we're
• 1:25:47
  going to get there eventually, you know.
• 1:25:48
  Then she said, 'Well, I was in the
• 1:25:49
  military. And I'm like, well, that could
• 1:25:51
  be part of it, but I don't feel like
• 1:25:52
  that was your early formation. She
• 1:25:54
  finally gets to my father left and I
• 1:25:56
  said, let's trace the conversation we
• 1:25:58
  just had. I said, you realize how
• 1:26:00
  avoidant you were in what we just
• 1:26:02
  discussed. asked you a very direct
• 1:26:03
  question and it took you a long time
• 1:26:07
  because your mind was suppressing that.
• 1:26:10
  And so you're not showing up for you and
• 1:26:14
  you actually think God's not showing up
• 1:26:16
  for you because your father didn't show
• 1:26:18
  up for you. And if we can get you to
• 1:26:20
  understand that God showed up for you
• 1:26:22
  even when your father didn't show up for
• 1:26:23
  you, maybe God was protecting you by not
• 1:26:27
  letting your father be fully present.
• 1:26:29
  Because maybe if your father was fully
• 1:26:31
  present, the wounds he would inflict
• 1:26:33
  upon you would be hard to recover from.
• 1:26:36
  And if you can't frame that in Romans
• 1:26:38
  8:28, you're you're you're always going
• 1:26:41
  to say stuck. So she's she's grown, been
• 1:26:44
  through the military, career woman, but
• 1:26:45
  she's stuck because of a missing voice
• 1:26:48
  in her life.
• 1:26:49
  >> And that's framing her theology of who
• 1:26:51
  God is. So if we can get to that,
• 1:26:53
  >> then we can unpack it and we can say
• 1:26:56
  because here's the thing, the the fear
• 1:26:58
  under that is I'm not okay.
• 1:27:00
  >> This is our whole fear. I'm not okay.
• 1:27:03
  You know, I'm not okay. I was not okay.
• 1:27:05
  That's why my father wasn't there. It
• 1:27:06
  had nothing to do with you. Once you get
• 1:27:08
  that piece of it, it changes your whole
• 1:27:10
  life. He did not or she did not or
• 1:27:13
  whoever did not not show up because of
• 1:27:14
  you.
• 1:27:16
  >> They didn't show up because of them.
• 1:27:17
  >> Wow. And so once you understand that,
• 1:27:21
  bam. But but then here's the other
• 1:27:23
  thing. We want to be okay. Now, so like
• 1:27:26
  we look at our culture like what the
• 1:27:28
  weird things we do, like I learned this
• 1:27:30
  about people. If I want to know what
• 1:27:31
  someone really thinks, just don't talk.
• 1:27:34
  If I just be silent long enough, out of
• 1:27:36
  awkwardness, you'll start to talk cuz
• 1:27:39
  you are you are concerned that I'm not
• 1:27:41
  okay. And me not being okay because I'm
• 1:27:43
  not talking makes you feel not okay. So,
• 1:27:45
  we do all these cultural things to make
• 1:27:47
  each other feel okay, and we're scared
• 1:27:50
  of not being okay. And so, once we
• 1:27:52
  realize with Christ, we're okay. No
• 1:27:54
  matter what's going on in our lives,
• 1:27:57
  we're okay in him. I'm not saying he
• 1:28:00
  caused the thing or created the thing,
• 1:28:02
  but that revelation changes everything.
• 1:28:04
  And then from that, really, I think the
• 1:28:08
  big sign for me of growth is like I'm
• 1:28:11
  comfortable
• 1:28:13
  where I'm at.
• 1:28:15
  I don't mean like that I don't want to
• 1:28:16
  grow. Right. Right. But like to put it
• 1:28:18
  in ministry terms and you could put it
• 1:28:20
  in whatever term would make sense to
• 1:28:21
  you. Like if I'm around a person that's
• 1:28:24
  ministering and they're calling, you
• 1:28:25
  know, there's someone named Bob Michael
• 1:28:28
  and you live on 1254th Street and I'm
• 1:28:32
  like, "Wow." And then they call and the
• 1:28:34
  person gets this miracle, then this,
• 1:28:35
  this, and I'm thinking, man, I just got
• 1:28:36
  a Bible lesson to preach when I can
• 1:28:39
  become fully okay. No, I'm fully okay
• 1:28:41
  because I'm fearfully and wonderfully
• 1:28:42
  made.
• 1:28:43
  >> Yeah. I'm carrying Christ in me, the
• 1:28:45
  hope of glory. And so Christ in you
• 1:28:47
  might be names and addresses, but that
• 1:28:49
  may not be Christ in me. When I become
• 1:28:51
  okay in that, I'm not striving for
• 1:28:53
  anything. Like, oh, the level of
• 1:28:55
  freedom. And that's only possible. And
• 1:28:57
  and that's where like the self-help part
• 1:29:00
  of it can't work, right? Cuz cuz a lot
• 1:29:02
  of what I just said could be said in
• 1:29:04
  those circles,
• 1:29:05
  >> but it said you're the answer.
• 1:29:07
  >> The difference what I'm saying is he's
• 1:29:09
  the answer.
• 1:29:09
  >> Yeah. That's so good. What would you say
• 1:29:12
  like we as a church
• 1:29:15
  um can do like just as like the
• 1:29:18
  collective body of Christ to not
• 1:29:20
  tolerate because you know that's what
• 1:29:22
  Jesus rebuked them for for tolerating
• 1:29:24
  the Jezebel spirit in his church.
• 1:29:26
  >> What what can we do? What is our role in
• 1:29:28
  this?
• 1:29:29
  >> I think we have to really press for
• 1:29:32
  purity. And you know, I'm going to go
• 1:29:34
  out on a limb and just talk more about
• 1:29:36
  the prophetic statement of the body of
• 1:29:37
  Christ since,
• 1:29:38
  >> yeah,
• 1:29:38
  >> I think those are probably the ones that
• 1:29:40
  might be a little more at risk of that
• 1:29:42
  particular judgment. I think we need to
• 1:29:44
  examine
• 1:29:46
  we need to examine motives behind a lot
• 1:29:48
  of prophetic ministry. I'm trying I'm
• 1:29:49
  sorting my brain how to answer this
• 1:29:51
  question because I'm trying to not get
• 1:29:52
  into certain things. But I think, you
• 1:29:54
  know, I feel like having been a member
• 1:29:56
  of the prophetic community for a while
• 1:29:57
  now, uh, so many things that I've seen
• 1:30:00
  that have re surfaced recently that are
• 1:30:01
  controversial with different
• 1:30:02
  individuals. I feel like that I saw them
• 1:30:05
  and others saw them a lot of years ago,
• 1:30:07
  but there were not honest conversations.
• 1:30:08
  And it was kind of like we're excited
• 1:30:11
  about somebody's giftedness and we're
• 1:30:13
  not examining maybe the motive or motive
• 1:30:15
  operations. And I also remember being in
• 1:30:18
  a private uh prophetic roundt with some
• 1:30:20
  of the who's who of the prophetic
• 1:30:22
  movement and I said to them and it
• 1:30:24
  landed like a a lead balloon. I said you
• 1:30:26
  know a lot of the problem I see is that
• 1:30:28
  a lot of you guys are not accountable.
• 1:30:31
  So you've been really good at creating
• 1:30:33
  accountability teams in order to really
• 1:30:35
  actually avoid accountability because if
• 1:30:37
  I have five people you know like this is
• 1:30:39
  my accountability team. I have five
• 1:30:41
  people who on that team can say that
• 1:30:43
  push you made need to take it down. I
• 1:30:46
  don't do that all the time with people I
• 1:30:47
  lead because I lead a lot of people and
• 1:30:48
  I like to let people grow on their own.
• 1:30:50
  But I have done it like I've called
• 1:30:52
  somebody and said I called somebody
• 1:30:54
  whose platform is larger than mine
• 1:30:56
  >> and I said
• 1:30:57
  >> do you really think that thing you're
• 1:30:59
  putting is the best use of your
• 1:31:01
  influence and they were upset but they
• 1:31:04
  thought on and they were like no and
• 1:31:05
  they pulled it down. Yeah. And I think a
• 1:31:07
  lot of times we don't have th that
• 1:31:10
  person or those people and so it creates
• 1:31:13
  a vacuum and Jezebel will feel that
• 1:31:15
  vacuum. And so I think in the modern
• 1:31:17
  prophetic movement we need to like look
• 1:31:19
  at examining motives. I think we need to
• 1:31:21
  have more accountability. Um, I think we
• 1:31:25
  need to have I would say this is
• 1:31:27
  something I've been teaching on
• 1:31:28
  recently. If we need to have more
• 1:31:30
  teaching on the prophet in the New
• 1:31:32
  Testament because we're building most of
• 1:31:34
  our templates on Ezekiel and Jeremiah,
• 1:31:36
  their jobs were to prosecute a
• 1:31:39
  covenantal case against Israel because
• 1:31:41
  Israel was backsliden in their covenant
• 1:31:43
  with God. So, they were prosecutors. The
• 1:31:46
  whole prophetic ministry is different in
• 1:31:48
  the New Testament. They're part of the
• 1:31:49
  five-fold ministry. So, this whole thing
• 1:31:51
  of I'm a prophet. But I don't have to
• 1:31:53
  listen to anybody. It's one of the most
• 1:31:54
  ungodly, unbiblical things in the world.
• 1:31:57
  And you can't teach it if you teach New
• 1:31:59
  Testament. You can only justify that
• 1:32:01
  with an Old Testament concept. But your
• 1:32:03
  theology is wrong. So I think having
• 1:32:05
  that a theological upgrade in the
• 1:32:08
  prophetic would help us to avoid
• 1:32:09
  particularly Jezebel spirit because
• 1:32:11
  again, I'm looking at the prophetic wing
• 1:32:13
  of the body of Christ and saying we
• 1:32:15
  often entertain the spirit because of
• 1:32:17
  these deficits I'm putting on the table.
• 1:32:18
  >> That's so good. it just summarize that
• 1:32:20
  then what is the what is the prophetic
• 1:32:23
  call in new covenant
• 1:32:26
  >> first and foremost it's an equipping
• 1:32:27
  ministry so the goal is not for the
• 1:32:31
  prophet to do all of the prophesying not
• 1:32:33
  that I'm saying the prophet should not
• 1:32:35
  prophesy we see Agabus warning Paul um
• 1:32:38
  we see you know prophecy all through we
• 1:32:40
  see in Acts 13 the prophets and the
• 1:32:41
  teachers calling out Paul and Barn we
• 1:32:43
  see it all through scripture but it's
• 1:32:45
  primarily an equipper so in other words
• 1:32:47
  the prophet in the New Testament is not
• 1:32:49
  the sole carrier of the voice of God in
• 1:32:51
  the earth
• 1:32:52
  >> because
• 1:32:53
  >> God's people now have been made in his
• 1:32:56
  image and likeness. They're spirit
• 1:32:57
  beings. They can hear from God. So the
• 1:32:59
  prophet becomes much more of an
• 1:33:00
  equipper. Um their their main ministry
• 1:33:03
  is the testimony of Christ. So whether
• 1:33:05
  I'm flowing in the word of knowledge, if
• 1:33:07
  I'm flowing in the word of knowledge,
• 1:33:08
  hey, you've had this pain for this many
• 1:33:09
  years and you get healed. I should be in
• 1:33:12
  my presentation of that pointing you to
• 1:33:14
  Christ.
• 1:33:15
  That should be a big deal. when when
• 1:33:17
  it's like, you know, you only got this
• 1:33:19
  because I came here. It's only because
• 1:33:21
  of my anointing. It's only It's not
• 1:33:22
  wrong to say God gave me an anointing
• 1:33:24
  for this. There's a way in which I can
• 1:33:26
  communicate that that's healthy and a
• 1:33:28
  way that's unhealthy. Um, so they should
• 1:33:30
  be doing that. And they don't have
• 1:33:32
  permission to not be involved with the
• 1:33:34
  body of Christ. This is the number one
• 1:33:36
  dysfunction. They do not have permission
• 1:33:39
  in Ephesians 4 to be a solo ministry and
• 1:33:42
  say, "I have a deeper revelation than
• 1:33:44
  everybody else. I don't have to listen
• 1:33:46
  to anybody else and only God can train
• 1:33:48
  me. That is not in the New Testament.
• 1:33:51
  That is in the Old Testament. But in the
• 1:33:53
  Old Testament, God lived outside of
• 1:33:54
  people, not inside of people. And there
• 1:33:56
  was no church. And so the prophet in the
• 1:33:58
  New Testament is a part of church
• 1:34:00
  government and the church body. Prophets
• 1:34:03
  typically learn better in isolation
• 1:34:06
  because they value the voice of God. The
• 1:34:07
  shepherd wants to be amongst the people
• 1:34:09
  and that's okay. But you have to also
• 1:34:12
  still participate and be involved.
• 1:34:13
  >> Yeah. Because I think that Jezebel
• 1:34:15
  spirit will attack you in isolation.
• 1:34:16
  >> 100%. And you become convinced your
• 1:34:18
  voice is the only voice. That's whenever
• 1:34:20
  people are like, I have the deepest
• 1:34:21
  revelation of the No, it's a wrap.
• 1:34:23
  [laughter] I mean,
• 1:34:25
  >> this was such a great convers just the
• 1:34:27
  the particularly what you were just
• 1:34:29
  sharing. I'm sitting here thinking about
• 1:34:32
  our mutual friend Justin Allen. I'm
• 1:34:33
  like, "Oh, I see why you guys get along
• 1:34:35
  so well." Cuz that's just that's that's
• 1:34:36
  exactly the same thing he would have
• 1:34:38
  said. Let me ask you cuz as I said at
• 1:34:41
  the beginning, I blew through this
• 1:34:42
  because I enjoyed it so much. Who did
• 1:34:44
  you write this for? Like who you've
• 1:34:46
  written over 40 books. That's a that's a
• 1:34:48
  that's a lot of people to to evangelize
• 1:34:51
  and minister to. Who who is this book
• 1:34:54
  for that you that you really want to see
• 1:34:56
  this in the hands of person dealing with
• 1:34:58
  XYZ?
• 1:34:59
  >> I wrote this for people who really love
• 1:35:01
  God,
• 1:35:02
  >> but they're getting stalled out in their
• 1:35:05
  forward motion because of other people.
• 1:35:07
  And I distinctly wrote this book very
• 1:35:09
  different. I've written books in two
• 1:35:11
  ways. I've written books as
• 1:35:12
  conversations and I've written books
• 1:35:14
  more educationally. This book is a
• 1:35:16
  conversation. And I wrote it that way.
• 1:35:18
  I'm sitting across the table from you.
• 1:35:19
  You got a big purpose in your life. You
• 1:35:21
  got a big call in your life. But it
• 1:35:22
  keeps stalling. And I believe one of the
• 1:35:24
  number one reasons is stalling is
• 1:35:26
  because people are controlling you. And
• 1:35:28
  even greater than that, I believe it's a
• 1:35:29
  form of witchcraft, which I wanted to be
• 1:35:31
  on the title of the book. I fought with
• 1:35:32
  the publisher about that. They want
• 1:35:34
  manipulation. Um, but I wrote it for
• 1:35:37
  that person. So, you feel like there's
• 1:35:38
  more for me,
• 1:35:39
  >> but I keep getting stalled out. This
• 1:35:41
  book is your book. This, and this book
• 1:35:43
  is so practical. This is probably the
• 1:35:46
  most practical book I've ever written.
• 1:35:48
  >> I try to take deeply ethereal things and
• 1:35:50
  peel back the mystery and make it so
• 1:35:52
  simple. Thus, the 11 different types of
• 1:35:54
  manipulators. I want you to be able to
• 1:35:55
  read it and go, "That's what I'm going
• 1:35:57
  through." And I want to give you
• 1:35:58
  solutions. And I always want to point
• 1:35:59
  you back to redemption. I don't want you
• 1:36:01
  to read this book and be pointing
• 1:36:02
  everybody else. This book is just to arm
• 1:36:04
  you. So you break the manipulation and
• 1:36:06
  you do the thing God put you on earth to
• 1:36:07
  do because time is short and I want you
• 1:36:10
  to be effective. So that's who I wrote
• 1:36:11
  the book for.
• 1:36:12
  >> Yeah. And I loved the reflections at the
• 1:36:15
  end of every chapter.
• 1:36:16
  >> That was the publisher.
• 1:36:17
  >> Oh, really?
• 1:36:18
  >> Yeah. Yeah. Because I was like, I'm done
• 1:36:19
  with this book. I wrote it and then like
• 1:36:21
  [laughter] we feel like it needs
• 1:36:22
  something else. And when they told me
• 1:36:24
  that I was like absolutely. And I think
• 1:36:26
  it made the book.
• 1:36:28
  >> Yeah, it did. It helps a lot like for
• 1:36:30
  people so people can actually like take
• 1:36:32
  it and apply it as well. So where where
• 1:36:34
  can people buy this book?
• 1:36:35
  >> It's available everywhere books are sold
• 1:36:37
  including a lot of your local bookstores
• 1:36:39
  but Amazon.com. You can also go to my
• 1:36:41
  website ryanrange.com
• 1:36:43
  or I have another website
• 1:36:44
  lrangglobal.com. So any of those spaces
• 1:36:47
  you can find it.
• 1:36:48
  >> That was my next question. Where can
• 1:36:49
  people find you?
• 1:36:50
  >> Yeah, I mean I'm on pretty much all the
• 1:36:51
  social media platforms. You also find me
• 1:36:53
  at ryanstrange.com. I'm probably more
• 1:36:55
  active on social media than any website
• 1:36:57
  right now. So find me on social media.
• 1:37:00
  >> Okay. Awesome. Um any any closing
• 1:37:02
  thoughts? Anything that you that you
• 1:37:04
  were praying about that you wanted to
• 1:37:05
  say that you didn't get to say? Anything
• 1:37:07
  for the audience you feel like the Lord
• 1:37:09
  is leading you to share?
• 1:37:10
  >> Sure. I would just say this. I believe
• 1:37:12
  there's a massive move of God coming,
• 1:37:14
  but it's coming through the remnant. And
• 1:37:16
  I think even the fact you pause to watch
• 1:37:18
  this conversation, there's something in
• 1:37:20
  you that is authentic and it's crying
• 1:37:22
  out. And you may feel displaced like I
• 1:37:24
  don't know where I fit. I don't know how
• 1:37:26
  I fit. uh I'm carrying this burden that
• 1:37:29
  other people are not carrying. And I
• 1:37:30
  want to tell you globally, there's an
• 1:37:32
  awakening of people just like you.
• 1:37:34
  You're not a misfit. You're not an
• 1:37:36
  oddity. You're actually somebody that
• 1:37:38
  God has crafted as a son or a daughter.
• 1:37:40
  And there's a response happening in this
• 1:37:42
  season to the voice of the father
• 1:37:44
  calling us home, calling us back to his
• 1:37:46
  presence. And we're going to see the
• 1:37:48
  most uh dramatic surge of innovative
• 1:37:51
  building we've ever seen. We're going to
• 1:37:52
  begin to see people build things that
• 1:37:54
  look a lot different than what we've
• 1:37:55
  seen before because they're raising up
• 1:37:57
  an army and a family at the same time.
• 1:38:00
  Um, one young leader put it this way.
• 1:38:02
  Uh, we're moving into an era of tables
• 1:38:04
  more than stages. And I believe that's
• 1:38:06
  true. And so many of you right now,
• 1:38:09
  you're in the season of the reload. God
• 1:38:11
  is reloading reloading you. And I hear
• 1:38:13
  the Lord say, for those that have
• 1:38:14
  experienced hurt in the church and
• 1:38:17
  you've just said, I'm going to lay that
• 1:38:19
  down. The father wants to put his hand
• 1:38:21
  on your wound today. And the Lord is
• 1:38:23
  saying, "I'm healing that wound. I did
• 1:38:25
  not cause it. I did not inflict it." And
• 1:38:28
  the Lord said, "This is a season for you
• 1:38:30
  to be healed." And so I just speak and
• 1:38:31
  release healing over you. Whatever
• 1:38:33
  brokenness and whatever pain, Father, I
• 1:38:35
  thank you for healing it now in the name
• 1:38:37
  of Jesus. Amen. And I believe you're
• 1:38:39
  going to be activated and you're going
• 1:38:41
  to be active and God's going to help you
• 1:38:42
  to find your tribe again. More tables,
• 1:38:45
  less stages.