Latest / Pitch to Product / What Every Entrepreneur Needs To Know About Patents, AI, & Public Disclosure
Transcript
- Jake Ward: Think of it like a fence, like your your invention is your property, you know, this the solution to this problem that you've conceived. But in order to to fence it off and claim it as being your own, you need to sort of demarcate those boundaries, create that that wall or that fence around it so that you know if someone comes along and they hop the fence, well, they're now trespassing. And as a property owner, that's your right just to go over and toss that person back over the line. Steve: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Pitch to Product Podcast, hosted by 52 Launch. I have the pleasure to be joined by Jake Ward, a registered patent attorney and founding member of the Ward Law Office. Jake, thank you so much for joining us today. Jake Ward: Steve, you know, thanks for the invite to come in and yeah, pleasure to be here. Steve: I'm I'm super excited to get into this. if you could begin, please, by telling us a bit about your background and how you got into the wide, wide world of intellectual property. Jake Ward: Yeah. So so yeah, Jake Ward, a registered patent attorney, IP extraordinaire. my my background, you go way, way back. Like how does someone become a patent attorney? Because you know, no child ever grows up saying, Hey, that's what I'm gonna do when I grow up, right? Yeah. We almost always find ourselves as patent attorneys sort of sort of backing into it. you know, one of the sort of unique characteristics of of of patent law is that in order to practice US before the US Patent and Trademark Office, the the government agency that that is effectively our courthouse, you actually have to have to have a science or engineering background. So whereas most lawyers get into the law because they're not good at science and math, patent attorneys are are sort of the exact opposite end of that spectrum. And we we almost always start our careers in in engineering or science, you myself included. I was a material scientist for a number of years before coming over to the dark side, I I like to say, and and practicing practicing patent law. So but but yeah, I've been doing it now for nearly nearly twenty five years. And so I used to think of myself as a scientist who who became an a a a lawyer, but now I'm a lawyer who used to be a scientist. Steve: Awesome. so so Jake Ward: Yeah. Steve: one one bar exam wasn't enough. You had to go through another one, the the patent bar? Jake Ward: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know I don't know, we're we're we're gluttons gluttons for punishment as as patent attorneys, I guess. But but you're you're absolutely correct. I mean it you know, it's one of the few areas of the law where actually you technically don't even have to be a lawyer in the state that you're you're residing in to practice, because we're federally barred. So I'm I am a a member of a of at least one state bar, and also a federally registered patent attorney. So I had to take that second second patent bar that allowed me to, you know, help clients and inventors and entrepreneurs and and work before the US Patent and Trademark Office, that that government agency. The other area of the law that's like this, by the way, is maritime law. So the law of the sea. So I I tell people, you know, if you find sunken treasure, it doesn't matter you know, where your where your lawyer is from. If they're a maritime lawyer, they can help you. And the same thing with patent law. You know, because of that, we've got clients literally all over the country, all over the world. It doesn't matter where we're sitting, because by and large we're we're dealing with that same federal government agency. Steve: So patent law, what exactly is it and why is it such an important aspect of starting a business? 'Cause I know we all grow up hearing about patents and what it means to have a patent. Yeah, correct. Jake Ward: Yeah. It's on shark tank, right? Yeah. Yeah. yes, one of the first things always sharks always ask is, yeah, do you have a patent on that? And so so what is a patent? Well, you know, it is a it's a limited right, you know, it it's exclusionary, is what I sometimes will tell people. Think of it like a fence, like your your invention is your property, you know, this the solution to this problem that you've conceived. But in order to to fence it off and claim it as being your own, you need to sort of demarcate those boundaries, create that that wall or that fence around it so that you know if someone comes along and they hop the fence, well, they're now trespassing. And as a property owner, that's your right just to go over and toss that person back over the line. And that's really what the patent is and how it how it operates. It sort of again creates that boundary so that we know if someone is is is trespassing or it's called an infringement, you know, in the legal context. That's the legal ease. That's the legal aspect of it. from a business perspective, you know, what what does a patent offer? Well, you know, it's an asset, first and foremost. It's it's something that a lot of times startups, entrepreneurs, will file because they're bringing something new to that to that, you know, that business community. and they want to claim that as being their own and proprietary. And it helps to build value, you know, by filing these, these IP assets like like patents and and trademarks and copyrights early on. Again, going back to what we're saying at the beginning of the question. Why does the sharks why do the sharks care? You know, whether you have a patent or not? Well, they're trying to determine are they likely to get a return on investment, you know, that ROI, and and they feel more comfortable usually is, you know, sort of the conventional wisdom in investing. That investors will feel more comfortable doing so if they know that you've taken those steps to formalize and say, this is mine and not somebody else's. so again, it's an asset of a company, and as an ass asset, it can be relied on for, you know, monetization, you know, licensing, sale, you know, you can use it defensively to try to ward people away, you know, defend your turf. you know, lots of good reasons why IP is used in a is a in a business context. Steve: And does every single inventor or entrepreneur with a product idea need a patent or does it really depend on the nature of the product itself and the complexity? Jake Ward: No, no, no. I so I you know, I I not only am I a patent attorney by day, but you know, because I need to use up even more of my time apparently, I I I teach patent law and patent practice at at law school at university. And when I'm not teaching, I have a s regular speaking circuit. And one one of my presentations that I give on a regular basis is you is called You Don't Need a Patent If. because, you know, your your question is I think is very, very astute because it it it it gets to this point that patents Don't drive businesses, right? Businesses drive patenting. You know, it's a tool. and you can make a reasonable business call that, hey, I'm gonna go out there and start my business and and I'm not gonna seek a patent on anything, right? I'll I'll put my money into marketing, I'll put my money into product development. Maybe the business I'm working in doesn't it doesn't have anything sufficiently new from like a machine or composition or ma article of manufacture, something that's been built standpoint, which is all patent related. You know, it could be, you know, doing something that is a very well known, well established sort of business model, but I'm just gonna do it very well and advertise better, in which case you don't have to patent at all. and you know, so I think it's it's usually going to be a business call that is made fairly early, in in the development of the of the new business, usually in conjunction with with you know, your your team of professionals, including a patent attorney. And and we would tell you, you know, if we think it's something that your business would benefit from or not. And if you ultimately say, no, no, we're not going to go the patent route, well there's other types of intellectual property. You know, every business has IP in one form of another or Steve: Mm-hmm. Jake Ward: another. And and if patents aren't the way to go, well, maybe we'll let's talk about trademarks or maybe copyrights or trade secrets even. Steve: So for people who do end up needing a patent, what are the dangers of waiting too long or even perhaps going too early into the process? Jake Ward: Yeah, so so patents there is a time sensitive nature to patenting your your invention. again, inventions being just solutions to problems, that's all they are. And the law says that if you have publicly disclosed, offered for sale, or actually sold your invention, you've started a clock. You've got one year within the committing of one of those activities to either file your application for a patent or it falls into what's called public domain, meaning anybody. can copy you and and and compete with you in in in fair market. so we we call it the one year grace period under under US law. And that's that's that's a tough conversation to have sometimes where someone they're you know inventors being proud people because they've naturally they brought something new to the world. They want to talk about it. And sometimes it you know you know I'll sit down with an inventor and and and and we'll have that's one of the first questions I'm I'm gonna ask is like well have you made any sales have you told anybody else about this? yeah, I sold it at this trade show three and a half years ago. Well, that's a that's a tough conversation to have to have that, because it's you're past the one year grace at that point. And there's things that we can try to do. But yeah, usually, you know, long story short, if you know if you've conceived of the invention, the patent process is a first inventor to file system. So it's a little bit of a race. There's a there's a pressure to get to the patent office sooner than later. Steve: So say somebody makes a couple prototypes in their garage and gives them out to friends or family, even if the finished product is fundamentally different from that prototype, does that still count as starting the clock? Jake Ward: No, no, because you know, and it comes down to what you just said. If the fundament if there's a fundamental difference between that early stage prototype and what was the final product, then yeah, they're not the same invention. You know, if if the same inventive concept is found in both that early prototype and the later commercial version, now we've got a potential issue, right? Because you shared this with with people who even though they're friends, even though they're family, You know, it might not be considered legally a confidential disclosure, but instead it would be what's referred to as a public disclosure. And public disclosures start clocks. Now, that distinction is important though, because one of the things that we do as patent attorneys all the time is is we hand these out like candy, don't even charge for them usually, is is confidentiality or non-disclosure agreements. That's why those are used usually, at least why patent attorneys encourage their use, because you know, no piece of paper is gonna stop a crook from being a crook, right? They're gonna steal from you no matter if they signed an NDA or not. But legally, if it was a disclosure, you showed someone or let someone borrow to test, you know, the product under an NDA, it's not a public disclosure. And you've not started a clock. It's a confidential or secret disclosure. like I said, we hand those out like candy, you know, and anyone who wants one will we have a couple of preferred versions that we will will provide and just to preserve rights. Steve: Which is why speaking to someone such as yourself early on in the process just to get that consultation is so important. Jake Ward: That's that's right. That's right. I mean, for the most part, people don't come to me and say, Yeah, I sold this at a trade show three and a half years ago. You know, that again, that's the that's a tough that's a tough conversation to have. but but you know, usually we're gonna try to make sure you're you're you know setting setting out on the right path. You know, there's certain do's and don'ts. Du's would be, you know, make sure you get NDAs in place or or at least you file what's called a temporary or provisional. application first to get your patent pending status before going out there and and testing the market too hard. you know, sometimes we'll also say, hey, you're too early. You know, you've got you've got a bald idea, but not really a solution, you know, to a problem. And what we'll do is we'll because we we know our sandbox, you know, IP law that's what we're good at, but we've got lots of good relationships with, you know, incubators and prototypers and marketing experts, right? And And we'll try to connect up people and say, all right, well go talk to them here first. You know, do your do your market research, right? You know, develop some prototypes, and then you can come back to us once you do have that solution to patent. Steve: One of the reasons I brought up asking the dangers of getting started too early was we had a client who came to us because ten years ago, if they had an idea for a product, they made a prototype and they got it patented because having a patent was always a goal of theirs, but at the time they Jake Ward: Mm-hmm. Steve: had no intention of ever selling it. And then it turns out some factory overseas took the patent and started making. He said, Wait a minute, I want in on that. I I Jake Ward: Yeah. Steve: created this. Why not I I should get some sort of advantage from this. So it's almost like he gave all these factories the blueprint for this amazing product before he even had a business in place. Jake Ward: Well that it's it you know, it's a trade-off. It is absolutely a trade-off. Being, you know, if you're going to go the patenting route, a requirement is that you actually describe in this written form of this this patent application how someone could make and use and and sell the invention without requiring too much guesswork or undue experimentation, it's called on on their part. so there's this disclosure requirement. And the trade-off then you get with the government is if you make that disclosure Or you're have a certain amount of time within which to claim that as being yours. So if someone does copycat you, you'll be able to potentially, you know, fence them out and require that they deal with you, usually in the form of like a license or or or something along those lines, an agreement where you get compensated. you know, if you file a patent application and you don't follow through and it becomes publicly available, but you don't actually take it all the way through the process, which is long and complicated. Well, yeah, that is that is a risk, right? You know, because if someone sees you and you caught and they copycat you and you didn't actually follow through, you know, complete the swing to actually get the patent granted, well, yeah, they they you know, it does fall into public domain at that point. So usually my my suggestion is, I mean, you you you don't want to file too early, at least the regular non-provisional application. You wanna make sure that you're fairly certain as to how you would make this, how you would use it. I mentioned something earlier called a provisional application, which is that's where most entrepreneurs will start, you know, because provisional means temporary. And the idea behind a temporary provisional application is it lets you lodge the invention in an early stage with the patent office in secrecy. And that's the key for a period of twelve months. You get to call yourself patent pending and no one knows what the content of that document is. and so it lets you sort of test the waters and figure out, okay, is this gonna be worth my time and my money to really fight this? over the next two, three, four years sometimes. all while keeping it under wraps and not tipping your hand, you know, to to would be copycats. Steve: I'm curious to also get your thoughts on this based on what you just said. Obviously, as entrepreneurs, they want to eventually make money off their product. And so they want to build momentum ahead of the launch, but they also don't want their product stolen. So at what point can they start talking about their business, what they're doing without giving away too many of their secrets? Jake Ward: Yeah, I mean, you know, I agree with you. The most most entrepreneurs I work with, that's the goal, right? Is to to turn this into into some sort of viable, you know, business and and make money off of off of the invention. there's very few people out there that just want the genius certificates you know, hanging on the wall. Although, although some inventors that's that's their goal Steve: Yeah, hey. Jake Ward: too. You know, but but I would say, you know, if if you're looking to to potentially leverage patents in as a business tool. you know, you start off with that temporary provisional application, you know, again, that's a fairly low risk way, being able to call yourself patent pending. A lot of the investors and advisors and and and and business partners will be looking for that, you know, to say, yeah, this is the person we want to deal with because it shows you've got a little bit of skin in the game. You've taken steps to actually secure secure those rights. You know, other things that you can sort of sort of do to sort of position you well, you know, in and trying to get that business up and running, you know, would not be only the filing of the patent application, but but you know, surrounding yourself with with the other right people, you know. Like I said, as a patent attorney, I know what I'm good at. It's not marketing, I'll tell you that. You know, but I've know a lot of good marketing people that you could reach out to. and one you know, some one of the things I've learned over time. you know, dealing with a lot of others, you know, in in in these other areas that that help entrepreneurs like marketing, is a good a good customer discovery doesn't tip the hand as to what it is you're doing. You know, customer discovery is more about finding out, well, what problems is the customer facing? Because you might actually have the best invention ever conceived for solving a problem that no one cares about, right? In which case You know, the whole point of the customer discovery early on and and getting out there and trying to figure out is this a viable business concern really won't involve any disclosure of IP at all. You know, just simply saying, hey, we're we're working on something and but we're we're here, we're open to listening to what's your pain points, right? And so that's another thing you can do early. File the provisional application on your on your concept early. But you know, I'd say customer discovery is another another big one. Steve: Makes a lot of sense. I did want to circle back to what you mentioned about public disclosure. Within the rise of AI, does workshopping your product on Chat GPT, your claw, et cetera, count as disclosure? Does that start your clock? Jake Ward: So I'm gonna give you the good lawyer answer of it depends. And and Steve: Yeah. Jake Ward: and this is why. you know, if your AI does not have training turned off, okay, and most most most harnesses now of of AI will will allow you to do that. But if you're just using, you know, general run-of-the-mill, chat GPT, you know, and you don't have the little checkbox, you know, checked saying, hey, it's not gonna use your data for training. There's a rare, real argument that whatever you put in there is is gonna start a clock. You know, they I think it's just a matter of time before someone figures out a way of determining when was something placed in to one of these these chatbots. you know, and in fact anyone who's listening to the podcast here today, that's there's a there's a million or billion dollar idea for you right there. Because in the future, there's gonna be a lot of sorry people, a lot of businesses that are gonna be blown up. Because, well, early on, you know, someone wasn't being careful and and they actually decided to you know plop their their idea that they later tried to patent into into Chat GPT. And maybe the patent office didn't have the tool at the time, but but when they went to enforce it, their competitor did. And they're gonna be able to say, hey, you didn't take reasonable steps, you know, to maintain that secrecy. It you know, you put it into something that clearly you knew that was being it was being used for training. And by the way, I don't care if they say it's been anonymized or not. Like I said, you know, we're gonna have quantum computing, you know, coming is coming down the the road here. And within a you know, not too distant future, that's that is something that's gonna be easily cracked. So, so my advice is, you know, I'm I'm an I'm definitely not a Luddite I love I love talking about AI and and and strategies for using it in IP. but I think you just need to be very careful when when using tools like that. You know, i if you're using it, make sure it's siloed, make sure you're not tr using the data for training purposes. you know, something else from a from a creativity standpoint. You know, if if you're putting in a prompt and it's kicking out something to you and you're like, well, that's interesting, but that isn't really what you told it to do, you might want to refine it, you know, and then document, you know, your refinement. you need there needs to still be human ingenuity, human involvement in creation of of concepts that are gonna be patented or copyrighted. And and the law's still the law's pretty clear about that right now. If it's if it was just something that got accidentally produced by a machine, a black box, there's really no owner of it. You know, but the minute you put at least a little bit of human creativity into it, refine the prompt, you say, well, I didn't mean, you know, the rose to be red, make it purple. now you've got human direction, human creativity, and you can maybe claim ownership. But yeah, we could talk about AI and and IP all all day long. But but yeah. Exciting times. Steve: Yeah, so let's get into that a bit. What do you see are the advantages of an inventor using AI to improve their business? Jake Ward: Well, you know, I think one of the great things that AI is is very useful for for an for entrepreneurs is is trying to learn information much more quickly and much more efficiently. especially when you're talking from a patent context, one of the one of the things we care about is the background. The legal term is called prior art. so knowing what was publicly available prior to your filing of of your of your invention. And knowing that information that baseline allows you to write a much more effective patent application talking about the difference, the daylight. And and so I think AI is a is a great tool for being able to sort of crunch all that information and sort of summarize it in a way that that can make the argument phase of the patent application process a whole lot more effective because you've done that background research. It's been something, you know, again, we've had at this point, what, 30, 40 years, it seems You know, the internet at at our fingertips. And so all that information has already been there. But I think AI sort of takes the availability of that information to the next level. I think another another way that AI is is in my experience here over the past couple of years become very, very effective as a as a a tool for for for entrepreneurs, you know, is gonna be in a lot of like the the the the the sort of creative elements of what you do. Like like I said, you know, it's not only good for background, but I think it will help it does help inventors to to try to push the boundaries. You know, you you hit you have an idea about, okay, well I wanna it's two blocks and they're gonna be connected by this particular screw. Well, you know, you could you could type in, well what what other types of fasteners might be suitable for something like that? And all of a sudden you'll get a sort of a ready-made list that sort of expands and pushes the boundaries. of what it is that you were you had conceived of. again, expanding upon the you know, that kernel of of creativity that that is human generated and and being directed by the human, I think perfectly fine and it's a great real world use of of AI. Steve: Because it it can't write the application for you. You still have to be the human prompt engineer behind everything writing the application, but it's certainly a useful research tool or workshop. Jake Ward: It it is. It is. You know, one of my favorite analogies right now. In fact I I and I even again secret, I even use AI to create a little a little animation short, a minute and a half long about this, but it's called the patent parachute. And the whole idea is is you know, you would never trust a robot to pack your parachute for you. I I know I wouldn't. I'm not gonna jump out of the plane if I don't know how that parachute's been packed. you know but A lot of people, like I said, are gonna find out the very very hard way in the future that they that they put an undue amount of faith into this mindless, faceless, you know, robot or AI and writing their patent applications. And it's very much the same thing. You know, the value in a patent application is not in the moment you file it, it's in the moment you try to use it, which is going to almost always be three, four, ten, twenty years down. You know? That's when the value is realized. And and my my cautionary note is use AI to help help with your inventing, help with the background. But ultimately, you know, the AI is not gonna be responsible. That's one of the things I tell you know, examples I use too. You know, what a lot of people say, well, why why would I use, you know, you know, an attorney to to write a patent application? I can I can get I can get words, I can get patent applications out of out of bots. Yeah, well, words under headings does not a patent make, you know, and and in fact, you know, I can't tell you the number of times here in recent in recent years where I get a stack of just gobbly gook coming from from an inventor who says, yeah, Steve: Yeah. Jake Ward: I chat GPT'd, everything you need to know is in here. A good patent is not one that is lengthy, it's not one that is just word vomited AI slop. A a good patent is good in as much as what it doesn't say as much as what it does say. you know, because you know, I can't we can as patent attorneys, we can point to over the past decades, you know, centuries, where where where the courts have looked at certain terms and they said, Well, you said this, so that's how we're going to interpret it, even though that was not the intent. That's why we're always so careful about what we what we put on the record and what we say in patent applications. but in any case, yeah, you know, if you would if you wouldn't trust the the robot to pack your parachute, you shouldn't trust it to write your patent application. Yeah. Steve: Makes sense. Is is gobbledygook the the legal term? Jake Ward: Believe it or not, Justice Scalia in a patent case, you know, many years ago now at the US Supreme Court used that term. So I can say confidently, yes, gobdeley gook Steve: There you Jake Ward: is in fact a a I'm gonna call it a legal term because because the Supreme Court justice did did Steve: Yeah. Jake Ward: use that term with respect to patents. Yeah. It's in the books. It's yeah. Yeah. Steve: Hey, it's in the books, right? I I did want to ask you about anticipate this, your your law blog. I was reading through Jake Ward: Yeah. Yeah. Steve: it earlier. It looks like a ton of fun. What made you start that? What do you hope people learned from it while while perusing? Jake Ward: Well, I, you know, again, going back to my my career you know, twenty, twenty-five years ago now and and you know, right around that time, this whole idea of blogging, you know, was sort of just taking off. It's weird. But there was a there was like a dozen or so of us, you know, in the US that all of a sudden we started blogging about patents all around the same time. And and you know, there were some that were more academic, you know, some that were industry specific like pharma based and and that sort of thing. And mine was always more of I wanted to try bring bringing patents to the masses, you know, sort of sort of thing, right? Break bringing it down and making it less complicated. And and actually and that's carried forward to my my modern day practice as a as a patent attorney. We we s I wouldn't say specialize in it, but we really enjoy working with entrepreneurs and startups and small businesses. we we do good work so we've attracted large clients over time too. But but with those folks, it's all about sort of education and and bringing it down, making the the what is arcane and sometimes scary and weird mixtures of legal and and and and technical and making it something that is usable, you know, for for a business. And we're really good at that. And I think that goes all the way back to when I started the Anticipate This blog, you know, many, many moons ago. probably if you if you notice it reading it, one of my favorite parts of that is w what we call the They invented what? Section? and I think I've got nearly Steve: Yeah, yeah. Definitely. Jake Ward: three or four hundred patents going, you know, way, way back, you know, many of them, of just really interesting, quirky, fun, fun products and inventions that people have come up with over time. So yeah, yeah, definitely check it out. Anticipate this.com. Steve: Yeah. Do you ever just read through patent applications to try to find fun ones, try to find interesting? Like, huh, never would have thought of that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Jake Ward: I don't have to work I don't have to work that hard at it. Yeah. I mean my my the when you're a patent attorney, your your job is to look at patent applications all day long. And and it's also gotten to the point where I have people that that will send it to me. It's like Jake, have you seen this one? And I'm like, yeah, that you know, that's that's Steve: Yeah, yeah. Jake Ward: interesting. And but but yeah, it it it is I I don't know. I mean, fun fun is is the word I use. But you have to be a perverse sort of human being, I guess, to call to call this job fun. But but, you know, for anyone who's interested in becoming a patent attorney, you know, just to throw that out there, I mean it it is something where it it if you enjoy working on the technical, on on, you know, science or engineering, but you also enjoy, you know, the logic that is sort of arguments and and and sort of persuasion, the legal side of it, it really is a great occupation. I I couldn't practice any other type of law, to be honest, you know. This is a it's one of those areas too where, you know, inventors, going back to what I said earlier about them being proud people, they're they're, you know, by and large, a pleasure to work with. They're they're they're happy to be talking with you, you know, about it. It's not like, you know, I'm, you know, dealing with a a criminal law case or a f or you know, some sort of a family law issue and someone's divorce or child custody. I mean, that'd be awful, you know, having to do with that on a daily basis. I work with inventors. We're much smarter than I am. I'm always learning something new. It really is a a a a a joy to be to be a patent attorney. Steve: Yeah, I think for many of our clients who are entrepreneurs and inventors, the same type of type of people you work with, these are their passion projects. It's they want to escape their nine to five and do this. So they have so much more passion and creativity behind it. And it it makes the experience that much more pleasurable for both of us. Jake Ward: Yeah. No, we I I I talk about it here with my team. I mean, we've got like thirty five of us anymore. I mean, we're spread out across the US. that's one small sort of outcome of that that little thing called the pandemic here, how many years ago that we we sent everyone home and it worked because our we have a central patent office in, you know, in DC and and we embraced it. We said, Yeah, that's that that is who we that is who we are. and and like I said, that's how we've grown. But you know, I tell them all the time, you know, what are we here for? I mean, that you know, if if not to help people. And and it really is a privilege that I think we have as as patent attorneys is we get to help the these entrepreneurs, these startups, you know, realize their dreams. And and I gotta tell you, th you know, it's why g it's what it's what gets gets me up every day doing this job is to be able to actually have that phone call with someone say, Hey, good news, we won. you know, arguments were successful and and the government is granting that patent. I mean, that is the that's why we do it right there. And and because we know it's changing lives. Yeah. Steve: Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure for many yeah, I'm sure for many of your clients having that patent certificate in their hands just feels like such a big accomplishment for them. Jake Ward: It is. Well, it is it's a huge accomplishment because it it it is not something that's easy to do. there's a reason people like Jake Ward have a job because it's it's not it's not straightforward. There's lots of you know twists and turns, setbacks. you know, I I tell some one of my examples I'll use too is you know, there's no such thing as the patent the patent machine where you go drop in a token and pull a lever and out pops the patent certificate, right? instead it it is a slog. We are trying to over a course of years convince this judge at the patent office. They're called examiners, but that's really what they are. They're judges, that you are deserving of the patent right. One of the things that keeps the value of all patents so high is the fact that they are they are scarce. There's a scarcity argument. So all you had to do is pull that lever and out pops the patent. Well, anybody could do it. And it would drive the value of all patents into the ground. So the fact that they they make this such a hurdle, right, to actually secure this and this important valuable IP right, it keeps the value high for everybody. So as frustrating as I can I and I tell my clients this, as frustrating as it is, I know that we're having to have this back and forth and convince the judge and submit arguments and evidence. There is actually a logic to it and it's a logic that benefits you as the entrepreneur and the applicant ultimately when you get the patent certificate in in hand. Steve: It it's one of those things you have to love the process just as much as the outcome. Jake Ward: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which as a patent attorney you have to love the process. I'm not going to tell any of my clients that you have to love having to deal with Steve: Yeah, yeah. Jake Ward: the with with the government, right? But it is it it is Steve: It's another secret. Jake Ward: it is a a a necessary evil, if you want to call it that. I mean it you know, i if and it goes back to what I was saying a moment ago. It's it's what keeps the value of all IP as high as it is, because if it was just a rubber stamp, it'd be meaningless. and And you know, and that's why patents and trademarks and copyrights are, you know, still as valuable as they are today. Steve: Makes lot of sense. as an instructor of patent law, what are some of the main lessons or takeaways that you hope your students get that maybe our audience can learn from as well? Jake Ward: So, you know, when I when I teach patent law, you know, one of one of my favorite topics is is doing some searching. We've in fact we spend in my patent practice class a couple days you know going through the logic of how to how to search effectively. it's something I don't think gives is given a lot of weight a lot of times. There's usually like this this sort of thought process is I just gotta file. I gotta get there as soon as I can. And and and yeah, they're There is value to being first in line, but I think there's also value to actually doing some due diligence, you know, and and you know, thinking sitting down thinking logically about what it is that you've invented. First of all, it's gonna give you some comfort and give your investors and your business partners comfort that if you're gonna file and spend all this time and money, that you're likely gonna be successful at the at the end of the day. You know, my wife, my wife hates it when I use this term, but when we do searches, you know, it is my job to tell you if the baby's ugly. You know, I I will Steve: Yeah. Jake Ward: tell you, you know, that is my job. And and and that's the whole point of doing a good search is you're trying to make sure there is gonna be something there. And second part of it is that's the inventor doing the doing the due diligence or being involved, is it will help you become a better inventor. You're gonna start thinking about, well, maybe I could do it this way. maybe I could do it that way. once you have this sort of lay of the land in front of you of everything that was sort of ancillary or similar, you're going to come up with with improvements and changes. So it it makes makes for better, better inventing by doing the searching. So again, if you're asking me what I what I, you know, sort of really f emphasize and what I try to have my students, I work really hard with them to try to to learn is how to do effective prior art or patent searching because I do think there's that value in it. Steve: We actually have another podcast episode from our co-founder Peter, called Your Babies Ugly. So I'm I'm shit so I can plug it. Jake Ward: Hey, yeah, yeah. Nah, no, that one one of my Jakeisms, you my my daughter says Steve: Yeah. Jake Ward: I'm an I'm a non playable character MPC. I say the same twenty five things over and over. You've heard at least four or five of so far in this podcast. Yeah. Steve: But yeah, awesome. Great. Well hopefully you can squeeze the last one in there of at some point. Jake Ward: Yeah. Steve: any closing remarks, anything we haven't touched upon that you want to tell the audience today? Jake Ward: No, I I I think it's important, especially in this day and age, we're going back to the AI, AI sort of question, to remember, you know, that ultimately we live in a human world and patents are for humans. Right. You know, and AI it is a tool. There's a danger of of of treating it as if it's some sort of, you know human being on the other side, but it's not. you know, it's very good at effectively processing lots of information. and it's very good at helping you as an inventor, as a business owner, you know, process that information in a way that's effective for your for your business. But I think ultimately, you know, you have to remember why is it that lawyers exist in the first place? You know, it's not so that we can put words on paper. You know, I've told people that before. Like if if you think See, that's what your patent attorney was for, was was putting, you know, words under headings. You didn't know what your patent attorney was there for. Your patent attorney is there ultimately, and this is you know, not just patent law, but lawyers in general. So that when everything blows up, when when your business is now on fire, who do you blame? Right? ChatGPT doesn't care if they got it wrong or if they misguided you. Right? The lawyer whose life line is on the line every day, my livelihood is on is is literally on the based on whether or not I am actually giving you good sound strategy and direction, that's who you're gonna have to trust. It's that judgment, you know, that I think human beings still have to provide in the age of AI. and that's why I I tell my team, I don't see our law firm, you know, going the way of the dinosaur anytime soon. You know, I think we are we are leaning into AI. any firm that's not is not gonna be around, you know, in a few years. but ultimately we know what it's good for and how it can be used effectively. And the judgment always is gonna have to, you know, remain with the human beings because again, we're living in a human world, not in a not in a digital. Steve: Absolutely. Well, there you have it. Jake, for anyone interested in consulting with you and your firm, how can they reach you? Jake Ward: you can reach out anytime. go to wardpatent.com is our is our website. We've got a a form there you can use to get a hold of us. You can also send an email to legal L E G A L at Wardpatent.com. I'm also gonna have you know, I'll hand out hand out my phone number here. main line is four one nine four zero eight fifty five hundred. really good, easy to remember legal phone number. But yeah, reach out anytime. We don't charge for basic consults, you know, precisely because it helps break up the monotony of staring at patents all day long. So I I'm happy to chat with you and and as well as my partners and colleagues to try to steer people on the right path. Steve: Awesome. Well, we'll put all that information down in the description below. So please check that out and reach out to Jake. Jake Ward, thank you so much for joining us and for sharing your wonderful insights with our audience. All right. Jake Ward: Thanks for having us, Steve. Yep, appreciate it. Steve: See you next time on the Pitch the Product Podcast.