Latest / Substack Writers Salon / “I Turned Down Penguin”: A Conversation with Paul Millerd on The Pathless Path, Money, and Redefining Work

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“I Turned Down Penguin”: A Conversation with Paul Millerd on The Pathless Path, Money, and Redefining Work · Substack Writers Salon

• 0:00
  Hi everyone,
• 0:02
  and welcome to another episode of the Substack Writer Salon.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: And today we have Paul Millard.
• 0:10
  And Paul,
• 0:11
  for those who don't know him,
• 0:13
  he is sort of the father of the pathless path.
• 0:19
  What I mean by the pathless path is he's the one who encourages
• 0:24
  all of us to take
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: unconventional paths in life and work.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: And he basically tries to reimagine the future of work.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that's through his book.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: The book is a best-selling book called The Pathless Path.
• 0:42
  And it got major recommendations from major YouTubers like Ali
• 0:48
  Abdel and others.
• 0:49
  I personally read the book a few years ago,
• 0:52
  and it really inspired me and reinvigorated me.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: So, Paul, thank you so much for joining me today.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's 9.30 p.m.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: here in the suburbs of Washington, D.C.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: And it's probably, what, 10.30 a.m.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: where you are?
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: 10.30 in Taipei.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: Taipei.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: Tuesday morning.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Paul,
• 1:18
  your story is that you had a lucrative job at McKinsey and you
• 1:25
  decided to leave it
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: and just go on your own.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: Do you regret this decision?
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I was never well paid at McKinsey.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: McKinsey was actually my first job in consulting when I was 23.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so I spent nine more years in the industry.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I actually loved working at McKinsey early on.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: I loved consulting.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: It was challenging.
• 1:53
  I had come from GE,
• 1:54
  where GE was kind of this old stuffy company on the decline.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, McKinsey was fast-paced, great managers, great mentorship.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: I learned a lot.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: It was really amazing.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's definitely the best job I ever had.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: After that,
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: though,
• 2:11
  I went to business school for two years and then had three more
• 2:13
  jobs in five years
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: after business school.
• 2:17
  I think in those successive jobs after business school,
• 2:21
  my salary definitely kept climbing.
• 2:23
  But then like my curiosity and just like sense of aliveness,
• 2:28
  I think,
• 2:29
  kept going down.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: And that disconnect just sort of tore at me.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think I knew what I wanted to do.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: I just knew that if I stayed on my current trajectory or current path,
• 2:42
  I was heading almost assuredly toward a life that I was not
• 2:46
  satisfied with.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: Are you satisfied now?
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, very.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think I would.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I definitely don't regret leaving.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: I wish I left earlier.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so I sort of wish I left.
• 3:06
  I wish I didn't go to business school and continue on a
• 3:08
  consulting for five years.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think if I had worked at McKinsey for two,
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: three years and then sort of gone out on my own or really,
• 3:17
  I probably should have just traveled for a year to meet that
• 3:20
  sense of adventure.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think I craved rather than going into debt to go to business school.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: But the journey's been fun.
• 3:30
  I think I've been able to apply a lot of what I've learned in
• 3:33
  consulting to writing.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I sort of am looking forward at this point.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I feel great on my path.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: I feel way more grounded and connected than I did on my previous path.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: So in that way,
• 3:48
  it feels much more secure and stable to me than anything I had
• 3:52
  in my previous path.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: So many people know you or got to know you online through your book.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: And this is how I got to know you as well,
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: through The Pathless Path,
• 4:04
  which is kind of becoming like the Bible for people who want to
• 4:12
  pursue this
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: unconventional path.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: So what gave you the idea to write this book?
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what was, you know, the spark?
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:23
  I think it's resonated because I didn't really write it to try
• 4:27
  to be a bestseller
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: or even sell a lot of copies.
• 4:33
  I wrote it because it was the obvious next step in the journey
• 4:37
  I had embarked on.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: So in 2018, I moved to Taiwan without a plan.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: This is why I'm here now.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: I ended up meeting my wife soon after.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: But
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: In that period,
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: I was just looking for sort of distance from my old life,
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: both metaphorically and literally.
• 4:56
  And in that first month,
• 4:58
  I decided I would just try to do the opposite of everything.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: My brain was telling me to do,
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: you need to make money,
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: you need to start stuff,
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: you need to go pursue impressive things,
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: all these things.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: So basically just like wandered around,
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: read,
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: and what I found myself doing most mornings was writing.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I just enjoyed it so much.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, wow, writing is awesome.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: I get so much from this.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: What if I just make this the aim of everything?
• 5:29
  And so I decided I would basically build my path around writing
• 5:35
  as the core
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: activity,
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: the priority,
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: creative action.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I...
• 5:42
  basically did that for years and so I didn't publish my book
• 5:46
  until four years later
• 5:49
  but in the next three and a half years I wrote I talked to
• 5:52
  people about the ideas I
• 5:54
  basically lived my life in a way in which I could write I could
• 5:57
  be energized right
• 5:58
  and I didn't want to become at risk of burnout or losing
• 6:03
  interest at all and so I
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: did that
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: Ended up publishing the book,
• 6:08
  and I think the book just connected with people in a much
• 6:12
  deeper way than I ever
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: expected.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think a few things drove that.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: One,
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: I did not write the popular nonfiction style,
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: which is like,
• 6:21
  here's how you do it and here are your takeaways at the end of
• 6:23
  the chapter.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: I wrote sort of a memoir-ish book, I like to call it.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's definitely my personal journey,
• 6:31
  but then there's like side quests where you can go down the
• 6:33
  rabbit hole of the
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: history of work.
• 6:35
  And I sort of weave in my personal story with some of these
• 6:39
  reflections,
• 6:40
  updated data points.
• 6:41
  And I'm really trying to say to people in the modern world,
• 6:46
  you're not crazy.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: The reason you feel weird about work, it all makes sense.
• 6:52
  And I'm just crazy enough that I spent the last three and a
• 6:54
  half years mapping this all out.
• 6:57
  And then I think injecting the personal story into it enabled
• 7:01
  people to really
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: connect with all of that as well.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: So why did you self-publish?
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you had a great story.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: I had a tiny audience.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: I had no chance of getting a book offer.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, maybe I did.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: Did you even try?
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: No, I didn't even try.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I had no interest.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think when I started writing the book,
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: people asked me,
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: are you going to try and get a book deal?
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: And like getting a book deal for nonfiction is absurd.
• 7:39
  you have to like spend like six months writing a proposal to
• 7:42
  then get permission to
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: write the book around the topic that the publisher chooses.
• 7:49
  And for three and a half years,
• 7:50
  I had just been waking up and doing what I felt called to do.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: And it was fundamentally opposed to my nature.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I had spent 10 years pursuing like prestige and status and success.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so like,
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: Not for a single moment was I ever like, oh yeah, I need that.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: That will help me.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: I was writing the book because I wanted to write it.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: The goal was to break even on the $7,000 I spent on the book.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: I had no intention of trying to sell a lot of copies.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't care if I sold a lot of copies.
• 8:27
  I was writing a book because that was just the obvious next
• 8:29
  step of challenging
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: myself as a writer.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned $7,000.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: How...
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: Why would it cost that much to self-publish?
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: $7,000.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: Hire a book designer.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: You have to buy the ISBNs.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: You pay an editor.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: I paid multiple editors because I had trouble finding the right fit.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, seven, seven thousands.
• 9:02
  And then including money to record the audio book,
• 9:04
  seven thousands,
• 9:05
  probably pretty low.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: I was a bit scrappy.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think if you want to do it well with like a good editor and designs,
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: you can probably do it for like five to 10,
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: but,
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: anything below that,
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: you're probably going to have to just have a lot of the skills yourself,
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: like cover design,
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: graphic design,
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: and things like that.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: You published another book, correct?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I published Good Work.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: Good Work's my second book, two and a half years after The Pathless Path.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: That was in September 2024.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: Okay,
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: so I'm assuming you broke even from the first book,
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: at least,
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: and hopefully more than that.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I spent about $10,000 on that one.
• 9:55
  And that was just because I had to hire a bunch of different
• 9:57
  cover people.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I paid my editor,
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: who I worked with in the first book,
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: a bit more because she did a little more work on this one.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think I've broken even.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: I've probably made about $5,000 to $10,000 profit on that book in a year.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: Which is not great.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: But the pathless path is still selling better than good work.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: So for the second one, you immediately went to self publishing.
• 10:28
  Did any like agents or publishers approach you after the
• 10:32
  success of the first one?
• 10:34
  Yeah,
• 10:35
  Penguin tried to purchase the rights to The Pathless Path after
• 10:38
  a year.
• 10:38
  They offered me $70,000 for The Pathless Path and $130,000 to
• 10:40
  write a second book.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: It was a two-book deal.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I had to hand over the rights to The Pathless Path,
• 10:51
  and then I'd get permission to write the topic they choose for
• 10:56
  the second book.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know, it was just too low of an offer.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: At that point, I was selling a crazy amount of books per month.
• 11:03
  I think I'd sold 2,000 books the previous month,
• 11:07
  and I made $10,000 from the book.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: So...
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: After an agent takes a fee, they basically force you to use an agent.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think I'd make like $52,000.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I'd have to earn back that.
• 11:19
  And so I was earning about $10,000 a month at that point
• 11:24
  because the sales were
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: crazy for the Pathless Path.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I would need to sell...
• 11:31
  double that to earn the same amount with a traditional
• 11:34
  publisher because they give
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: you a smaller cut.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: And they were going to take it out of print, which is just insane.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think like it was just a really bad match.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't really connect with them energy wise.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: So it was pretty much an easy no.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: So that was Penguin, right?
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: So you actually turned down Penguin.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: You should have this as your tagline.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: I turned down Penguin.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I just don't care.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think it matters anymore.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think self-published books get a bad rap.
• 12:10
  And sure,
• 12:11
  a lot of people do them cheaply and don't put the effort in and
• 12:15
  care in.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: But...
• 12:16
  If you do like a paperback,
• 12:18
  they're indistinguishable print on demand from the other ones.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: Can you get into bookstores?
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: No,
• 12:25
  but you can actually control pricing and compete a lot more
• 12:29
  aggressively in getting
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: your books out there.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: You can gift your books cheaper.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: You can do cool things like creating a premium hardcover.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: What I did recently, I can legally use all the pages inside my book like
• 12:43
  Traditional publishing,
• 12:44
  like,
• 12:44
  you don't even have merchandising rights for your books.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: They own everything these days.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so... Yeah, I don't... It's...
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: To me,
• 12:55
  I think the distinction between traditional publishing and
• 12:58
  self-publishing is going
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: to fade away.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: Right now,
• 13:01
  it's just that way because they put so much energy into
• 13:05
  maintaining this prestige
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: and they don't want to give away rights to authors,
• 13:10
  even though eventually authors are just going to wake up to
• 13:13
  this that if you own
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: your own audience,
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: it's insane to give marketing and rights control to your audience.
• 13:23
  To a random company in New York that has like pretty poor paid
• 13:29
  employees working for it.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: it's interesting what you said because like a couple of weeks ago,
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: I interviewed another big creator here on Substack,
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: if you know her,
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: Veronica Yorca-Smith.
• 13:43
  And she published,
• 13:45
  I think,
• 13:45
  with Penguin or maybe Random House,
• 13:47
  I can't remember.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then when I asked her,
• 13:50
  she previously self-published and she said she's going to go
• 13:54
  with a traditional
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: publisher.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, why?
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, because of their reputation and because...
• 14:01
  She would not get invited to speak at major conferences if she
• 14:06
  was self-published.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: And that for her was kind of the thing that made her decide.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: This is the big hidden secret of the industry.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: The industry gives a bad deal to authors for their books.
• 14:27
  But authors do it because the industry has these special
• 14:31
  connections for speaking gigs.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: So this is exactly what they said to me in the pitch.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: They'll say, hey, we'll get you on the speaker circuit.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: You'll definitely make money from speaking.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: I like writing.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to be a speaker.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it's very true.
• 14:50
  This industry is built around gatekeeping and all these secret
• 14:56
  deals with PR people
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: and conference people behind the scenes.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 15:02
  there are people that have books that have sold much worse than
• 15:06
  mine and barely
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: sold that are on the speaker circuit talking about work.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: I don't get invited to any of these.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: I've never gotten an offer to speak at a conference.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, that's 100% true.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think the reputation part is bullshit.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: Who published your favorite book?
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_03: Who published it?
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: What's your favorite book?
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I have a number of them, but it's probably…
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: I like the books of like Jun Palari, who's an Indian-American author.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: She writes fiction.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: She wrote The Namesake.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: She wrote Interpreter of Maladies.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: It might be one of the big fives in New York.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: I don't remember.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's probably, I can't remember.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: Who's the publisher of it?
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know?
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: I have to look that up.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: No one knows the publisher.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: You bought the book probably because somebody recommended it to you.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, correct.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: You care about your friend's reputation.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: You don't care about the publisher's reputation.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's true.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's a valid point.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: This is just something people say.
• 16:26
  And so,
• 16:26
  I mean,
• 16:27
  I think the real reason is like it's delightful to be selected.
• 16:31
  It feels so great for the ego to be like somebody that other
• 16:36
  people see as impressive chose me.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's really delightful to feel.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's mostly for the ego.
• 16:44
  I just have experience of feeling that before and then
• 16:47
  eventually realizing it
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: doesn't matter in the long run of your life.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like I got into MIT for grad school.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: It felt amazing.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: But like you can't do anything with that feeling.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: We love being chosen.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think I'm just a little more aware of these things.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think the speaking thing is very real.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're doing it to like make more money from your book,
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: like it's just,
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: it's very,
• 17:15
  very hard because they're not going to care unless they give
• 17:18
  you a massive advance.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's like fascinating to hear because it's,
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: I heard like I keep hearing different opinions about it.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so what?
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: Well, they aren't opinions.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: You need to find out, one, what is the size of your advance?
• 17:37
  If somebody has a $500,000 advance,
• 17:40
  that is shaping their opinions,
• 17:42
  right?
• 17:42
  You need to understand like what they're getting and how they
• 17:46
  value things.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I think in this author world, people don't actually share anything.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: I share 100% of my royalties.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: I share all my foreign rights deals.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: I share you the percent cut.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: I pay my agent.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: All of this is public.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so you can assess my opinions based on what's actually happening.
• 18:11
  Authors who go with traditional publishing will never tell you
• 18:15
  the size of their advance.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: They'll never tell you how many books they sell.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: They'll never tell you how much they make from books.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: So unless you have that information, you can't really make good books
• 18:25
  judgments based on what other people are telling you like you
• 18:28
  need to figure out
• 18:29
  one what you value and then two like what are the trade-offs
• 18:33
  other people are
• 18:33
  making versus their values okay so what made you sell so many
• 18:39
  books i mean before
• 18:41
  the i don't know you have to ask my readers like what what is
• 18:46
  your secret uh
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: there's this is the thing there's no like books
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: There's no like playbook that can sell a lot of books.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: There's a certain amount of magic that exists.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone wants there to be a playbook.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, if I just do these things, I'll sell a lot of books.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: There's one thing that sells books.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: People buy it, finish it, and then share it and gift it to other people.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 19:17
  Books spread via word of mouth or awareness once it's reached a
• 19:22
  certain tipping
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: point that like everyone knows that everyone knows this is a good book.
• 19:25
  But the number one thing is it has to actually be a good book
• 19:29
  that people like and
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: want to recommend.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: So have you ever recommended The Pathless Path to anyone?
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: Probably.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I recommend a lot of books.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: I have a podcast.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: So that's how it sells.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:47
  I mean,
• 19:47
  I'm trying to remember how I heard about you probably on
• 19:50
  Twitter,
• 19:51
  maybe on Ali Abdel.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: So how did you get Ali Abdel to recommend your book?
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what was the connection here?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm sort of crazy.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't ask anyone to share my stuff.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: I have a fundamental view of how I see art and creative work.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: My creative work is a gift for the world.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: I don't deserve any money for my creative work.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: My creative work is such a privilege to be able to do.
• 20:20
  To be able to live in the modern world and create and be able
• 20:23
  to share it with the
• 20:24
  public for pretty much free is just one of the greatest
• 20:28
  privileges in the world.
• 20:30
  I don't expect to receive anything for this work because I'm
• 20:33
  already getting paid
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: in the light of being able to do the work.
• 20:37
  That makes a lot of people uncomfortable because we live in a
• 20:40
  modern economy and we
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: need money and we feel like we should get paid money for our work.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: I don't feel that in my bones, in my body.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so I genuinely gift my work to people.
• 20:57
  Ali Abdaal happened to simply be a reader of my newsletter like
• 21:01
  six years ago.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: He found it through my brother, his brother, who sent him this stuff.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: And he supported my presale.
• 21:10
  And so I replied to him just like any other person and said,
• 21:14
  let me send you some free copies.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so I sent him a bunch of free copies.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: He read the book.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: He liked it.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: He started recommending it to other people.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: But his behavior was almost indistinguishable from like other people.
• 21:32
  I don't really treat him differently than other readers who buy
• 21:37
  and recommend my stuff.
• 21:39
  And so when I find people that love my book and recommend it to
• 21:42
  other people and
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: gift it to other people,
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'll typically say,
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: hey,
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: can I send you five copies?
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: I love that you're gifting it.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Let me support you in doing that.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so...
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: Over the last four years,
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: I pretty much just,
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: I treat every reader that loves my stuff,
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: I take them incredibly seriously.
• 22:02
  And I really care about them because anyone who's going to
• 22:05
  spend time with my work,
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: it's like,
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: wow,
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: that's amazing.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: It might take five, six hours to read The Pathless Path.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: You're going to spend that time with my work, I'll do anything for you.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so I really try to orient around that.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: But in the pathless path,
• 22:27
  I'm talking you through all these ways I've tried to practice
• 22:31
  approaching my work.
• 22:33
  And so this was a lot easier after five years of actually
• 22:36
  showing up and living and
• 22:38
  practicing that way of life without any outcomes or success
• 22:42
  from my writing.
• 22:44
  And so my work is indistinguishable from how I approach my
• 22:49
  work,
• 22:49
  if that makes any sense.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like I really try to practice generosity.
• 22:54
  I really try to embrace this idea of seeing my work as a gift
• 22:57
  and feeling incredibly lucky.
• 22:59
  And like if those things aren't right,
• 23:01
  like I see them as problems to be fixed.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, you have a family, you have a child.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: How sustainable is that,
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: let's say,
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: approach when it comes to,
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: and we do still live in a capitalist world.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know how sustainable it is.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like how,
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 23:23
  and if you want to give advice to people who want to follow a
• 23:26
  similar path and,
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: they have bills to pay,
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: they have,
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 23:31
  kids that they want to send to school and buy new clothes and
• 23:35
  all of that.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: We have to think of something more practical, no?
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: For me, no.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: Me and my wife, no.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: We put doing our creative work and those things above material objects.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: We are not saving to send our kid to private school or something.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: We are not trying to buy a house.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_02: We don't own a car.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: we live in Taiwan because, yeah, it's cheaper.
• 24:11
  The thing is,
• 24:11
  like,
• 24:12
  we're starting from,
• 24:13
  like,
• 24:13
  what is the life we want to live?
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: What are our constraints?
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: And how do we make that happen?
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: We cannot afford child care in a house and a car right now.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: For many people, that's a deal breaker.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: They're like, hell no.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: In which case, like, you should not, like, try to be me.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: You need to start with what you want.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: If you want a very cozy,
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: upper-middle-class,
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: American-style life,
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: you need to grapple with that and say,
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: given that constraint,
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: what trade-offs am I willing to make?
• 24:54
  Maybe you have to remain employed and do your creative work at
• 24:57
  night or in the
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: morning or something.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: For me, I don't...
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to build my life around a job.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: My wife is wired the same way.
• 25:05
  And we're both just like,
• 25:09
  we must have this sense of adventure and aliveness in our life.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: And we're willing to sacrifice pretty much anything for that.
• 25:16
  Now,
• 25:17
  that being said,
• 25:17
  I have at least broken even every year of my journey.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 25:24
  And so when I quit my job,
• 25:25
  I had some savings to cover about a year of expenses.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I said to myself, success is breaking even each year.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so costs have gone up and gone down at times.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: I have had some luck with the book and made money from that.
• 25:40
  But when I made a lot of money from the book in 2023,
• 25:44
  I didn't buy more stuff.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: I just saved more money so that I could continue to buy more freedom.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: To keep doing this creative work, keep living this life.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I have no idea if this can work three years from now.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: What would you do if it doesn't work?
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: Would you go back?
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'll just get a job.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's not that big of a deal.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: Ah, okay.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: The uncertainty is not a problem to be solved.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_03: It's not?
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: For me, no.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uncertainty is something to be embraced.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uncertainty is part of life.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 26:26
  Not knowing if I can make money three years from now is not a
• 26:29
  problem to be solved right now.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: So you're not opposed… It's not urgent.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: You're not opposed to going back to 95.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: I will fight like hell to avoid it.
• 26:43
  um that's the thing i've been self-employed for eight and a
• 26:46
  half years like i've
• 26:47
  developed all these skills i've learned how to make money in a
• 26:50
  hundred different
• 26:51
  ways like i'll pretty much do anything to avoid that fate and
• 26:58
  my confidence goes up
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: each year like the longer you're on a path making it on your own the more
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: confidence you have that you can keep going okay i see and um
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so what is the main source?
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: You seem uncomfortable with some of the things I'm saying.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just,
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm playing the devil's advocate because that's,
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: that's basically,
• 27:23
  I'm like trying to understand where you're coming from because
• 27:25
  you have a very
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: unconventional opinion.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: and I like that because many of the people that I- My writing,
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: my writing and thinking is not for everyone.
• 27:37
  My writing is not for the person that wants the house and the
• 27:40
  fancy life and the stable salary.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you shouldn't be reading my stuff.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: My stuff is for the weirdos that must find another way.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: And these are the people that love my book and my writing.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm writing for them.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to be a mainstream airport bestseller.
• 28:02
  I want to be a niche writer for the weirdos like me who must
• 28:07
  find a different way.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: And we have existed throughout history,
• 28:12
  from the poets escaping Confucianism and getting drunk in the
• 28:16
  forests in China,
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: to people like Walden,
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: to the mystics in the Middle East in the early 200s,
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: like...
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: These people always exist.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: And these are the people, I realized I am like them.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: I am not wired like the suits I was surrounded by in my corporate world.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so I write for those people.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like Caitlin's responding in the comments.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: People like Caitlin.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 28:46
  Was there like a life event that happened that altered your
• 28:50
  thinking of being an MIT grad?
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you were on the path to become one of those people in suits.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, MIT and McKinsey and consulting.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: What happened?
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm the poorest business school graduate from my class now.
• 29:09
  and so I'm an utter failure when it comes through the lens of
• 29:13
  the default path and
• 29:15
  that's fine to me because the thing is like it never really
• 29:19
  mattered that much to
• 29:21
  me I think I was always just this good student and was scared
• 29:27
  like I was very
• 29:27
  insecure and like scared of getting out of my comfort zone when
• 29:31
  little and I think
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: I was definitely just emotionally immature.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know how to handle emotions.
• 29:37
  And I think I dealt with a lot of that by avoidance and chasing
• 29:42
  certainty.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so even within all my jobs, I was always trying to escape.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: I was always pushing the limits.
• 29:49
  I was the first one to leave the office and didn't care that,
• 29:52
  oh,
• 29:52
  you can't just leave.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: You got to stay around and work hard like everyone else.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I was always testing boundaries and pushing the limits.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so to me,
• 30:03
  quitting my job and taking the first step to work on my own
• 30:09
  didn't feel that
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: radical,
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: actually.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: It felt like a continuation of like,
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: I've tested all the boundaries in the full-time world.
• 30:17
  I need to take one more step and just see what's out here
• 30:21
  beyond full-time employment.
• 30:24
  And so it was really more shocking for other people in my life
• 30:28
  than me because for
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: most people,
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: they see like full-time employment is safe and self-employment,
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: freelancing,
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: working on your own,
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: doing creative things like I'm doing now is risky.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: But to me,
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: almost immediately,
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: it was like,
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 30:45
  this is the least risky thing I could do because now I have
• 30:48
  control over my life.
• 30:50
  The risky thing would be to go back into the corporate world
• 30:54
  where I'm doing things
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to do and I have to deal with all this latent tension,
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: disconnect with who I want to be,
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: and this growing cynicism that leads me to drink,
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: be like...
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: be negative, complain a lot.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't want to be that person.
• 31:12
  And so it was just so easy to walk away from that because I was
• 31:18
  becoming a person I
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: couldn't live with.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: I identify,
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 31:25
  I feel the unhealthiest and the most miserable I've ever been
• 31:29
  was when I worked a
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: nine-to-five job.
• 31:33
  And,
• 31:34
  like,
• 31:34
  now,
• 31:36
  you know,
• 31:39
  I made more money than now,
• 31:41
  but on the expense of what...
• 31:43
  Same.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: On the expense of what at the end of the day.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: So...
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: How did you manage to amass such a big audience?
• 31:55
  Like you have,
• 31:56
  what,
• 31:57
  25,000 followers on Substack,
• 31:59
  if I'm not,
• 32:01
  or across all platforms?
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like how many followers do you have on Substack?
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: I can check here.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 25,000 subscribers.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm checking here on my iPad.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: How did you manage to get all these people to follow you?
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: If someone wants to have this amount of audience, what was your magic?
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: I wrote most weeks starting in 2017.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: published hundreds of issues,
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: genuinely connected with people and didn't care about audience growth.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: What did you publish?
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: What did you publish?
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: I started on Substack in 2019.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: But before that, I was on MailChimp for like two years.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then I also published on Medium.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: I was also writing on Quora.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: I was also publishing on LinkedIn.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, I think my path is really just about the long game.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: I've never been good at like growth hacks.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think if I was more strategic, I could have a much bigger audience.
• 33:07
  a lot of people like join the creator economy and built like
• 33:10
  massive email lists in
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: the past like three,
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: four years.
• 33:14
  And they've been much more like aggressive and strategic,
• 33:17
  um,
• 33:18
  mostly like hustle bros.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, I just like never, um, have spent too much time on that.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think like a lot of people recommend me on sub stack.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know how high quality the audience is.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 33:37
  My growth has been pretty stagnant over the last year because I
• 33:42
  think people are
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: just subscribed to too many Substacks.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't even know if I'm going to stay on Substack.
• 33:50
  I think the platform's become a bit distracting and I don't
• 33:54
  really monetize through
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: a paid subscription.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: So...
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't know.
• 34:01
  I think focusing on subscriber growth on Substack is a really
• 34:08
  bad north star for anyone.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: My subscribers increased most dramatically after I published my book.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, okay.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so people found my newsletter because they found my book.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: So the path to growing subscribers, if there is one, is to do great work.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so if your great work is doing a weekly paid newsletter,
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: like go all in and go hard on that.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: But if it's not,
• 34:37
  go do your great work and try to get subscribers to support
• 34:44
  your free publication,
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: which ultimately supports your paid work or something like that.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: So why don't you have paid subscription?
• 34:52
  I mean,
• 34:52
  you can easily make...
• 34:53
  I don't want to be a weekly newsletter writer.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a job I want.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: How often do you publish?
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: most weeks.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: And you do not want to be committed to a deadline.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's why you did not want...
• 35:08
  I would think people would still support you even if you did
• 35:11
  not publish weekly.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: with the same cadence,
• 35:13
  I think you can still get paid subscription and you can make
• 35:17
  like a couple of
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: thousand dollars a month just doing the same thing you're doing.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what's the harm in that?
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't feel right.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's just not like what I want to do.
• 35:31
  I think having people come in and pay me,
• 35:36
  I feel pressure to deliver something to them.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'd rather at the margin people say,
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: you know what,
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to go buy his books and support his other work.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe there are other things I can build.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: And also, I think there are better ways to make money.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: than a $5 subscription.
• 35:58
  I'd rather create some sort of course that's like $150 that
• 36:03
  people can buy and have
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: and go to create something like that.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: I have my community people can join.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's $150 one-time payment.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: And with that, they can get $30 off my premium hardcover book.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I just like one-time payments.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't leave the paycheck world to create another paycheck for myself.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: I don't like paychecks.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: I don't like the responsibilities of employment.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: I like to be able to do whatever I want all the time.
• 36:36
  I'm thinking about taking like four months off at the beginning
• 36:39
  of next year.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, like I don't have to like publish or write anything.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: But I can because...
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: since I started writing more publicly and consistently,
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: only thing I've ever held myself accountable to is write most tweaks.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: But that's not hard because I love writing.
• 36:59
  And so the ideas are always coming and I just like ship when I
• 37:03
  feel like it.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: Where do you have your community?
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: You said you have your own community.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: Where do you have it?
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's on Circle.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: So right now, it doesn't really make that much money.
• 37:17
  Really,
• 37:17
  it is because I basically break even and make a little more
• 37:24
  after paying for Circle.
• 37:26
  But it's mostly just because like so many people have read this
• 37:29
  book and they're
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: how do I find the others?
• 37:32
  And so the cool thing that's happened is it's like this very
• 37:35
  small but very close
• 37:37
  community of like people around the world who are like meeting
• 37:40
  each other,
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: having meetups,
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: like connecting,
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: like doing projects together.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's really cool.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what it will become.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sort of like,
• 37:50
  I try to follow the energy rather than like create the things
• 37:54
  and create top-down
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: things.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: What do you provide for the community?
• 37:58
  I usually do a monthly call and then a space they can connect
• 38:04
  and then a WhatsApp
• 38:06
  group where they can sort of like connect with people and do
• 38:09
  things like that.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then I have access to like a couple of courses I've created.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: I have a freelance course and like a reimagining work course,
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: some other tools I've created,
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: things like that.
• 38:23
  It's,
• 38:24
  yeah,
• 38:24
  it's not like something I could charge like a lot of money for
• 38:27
  every month.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: But still trying to figure out like what it is.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: So how is your day like, day to day?
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if, you know, you, yeah.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm constrained by like— Yeah,
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: if you can take me through your day while you are on this path,
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: this path,
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: how is your day structured?
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so right now,
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, a lot of it for the last couple of years.
• 38:56
  I have not worked a ton until this year for the last two years
• 39:00
  because I was mostly
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: taking care of my daughter.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: All of last year,
• 39:04
  I was like the lead parent taking care of my daughter three to
• 39:07
  four days a week.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: And my wife was writing her book because we have decided as a family,
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: we're going to put the creative work above like everything else.
• 39:15
  And like I was making enough money from my book that I could
• 39:18
  sort of just like work
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: less and not worry about it.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so...
• 39:23
  I was hanging out with my daughter most days doing stuff like a
• 39:26
  one or two year old likes.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: Now we're in Asia, my wife's parents are helping a bit.
• 39:33
  And so today I woke up,
• 39:35
  hung out with my daughter for two hours until this call.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: They're at the park now.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know what I'm gonna do after this.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like I don't, every day is like different.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: I sort of just like make it up as I go.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, if anyone's in Taipei, happy to meet up for lunch.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't have any plan.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: I actually haven't really thought about what I'm going to do after this.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's very go with the flow.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: If you search day in the life,
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: Paul Millard,
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: it gives you a breakdown of a week in the life,
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: or a week in the life,
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: Paul Millard.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: You'll find a post I did last year.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: I should do another one of these.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah,
• 40:17
  it's sort of just like wake up and if there is like a podcast
• 40:21
  or call I'm doing,
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: that's on the schedule.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: But otherwise, like I sort of just flow with what feels right.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: But I love writing, so writing happens most days, but...
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: There's no, like, constraints.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: But that's how I've designed it.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: Do you get criticized by,
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: close family or,
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: some people like,
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_01: what are you doing,
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: you know?
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: And how do you handle that?
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think family are the people that know you best.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think you're going to get, like,
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I have cousins and family that make fun of me.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what are you doing?
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: Ultimately, they're supportive of me.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that stuff was really hard the first year.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: But not now.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think for the most part,
• 41:16
  other people are insecure about their own paths or lack of
• 41:22
  freedom or being
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: dissatisfied with things or have fears around money that I don't have.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so they project those onto you.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you can do this because of this.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: Or, oh, don't you worry about this?
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: Don't you worry about that?
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: Don't you have to think about this?
• 41:39
  And all they're really telling you is like,
• 41:41
  hey,
• 41:41
  here are things I really worry about.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so I don't really get upset or stressed about it anymore.
• 41:51
  And I genuinely have a lot of compassion for what people are
• 41:54
  telling me because
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: they're telling me what their biggest fears are.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: And like what people's biggest fears are like pretty simple.
• 42:06
  It's like,
• 42:07
  it's usually not the money or the health or it's like,
• 42:11
  will people still love me?
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: Will people still accept me?
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: Will people think I'm a good person?
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: And like, that's a lot of what we're doing in the world.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: We're seeking those things from what we do.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah,
• 42:30
  I just don't stress that much about those or what people think
• 42:34
  about me at this
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: point.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: My wife and my daughter, I care about what they think.
• 42:40
  But beyond that,
• 42:42
  I'm not spending too much time worrying about what most other
• 42:46
  people think.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: So you said you don't worry about money?
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: I worry about money much less than other people, it seems.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the reason I'm able to worry less is one,
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: I've figured out how to make money on my own.
• 43:05
  So I have confidence I can continue to make money in
• 43:07
  interesting ways on my own.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: Two,
• 43:10
  by becoming self-employed and seeing my bank account dip in
• 43:13
  that first year,
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: it was terrifying.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: But I realized that there's two choices.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: One is to make decisions from my fear and say,
• 43:22
  I'm going to go get a job to make that fear disappear and avoid
• 43:25
  the feeling.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: Or just say,
• 43:27
  I'm actually just going to let the fear flow through my body
• 43:30
  and really feel what
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_00: it feels like.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then once you've done that enough times,
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: it becomes like this friendly companion on your path.
• 43:39
  And you can just say like,
• 43:40
  I'm going to dance with the fear and like keep going.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then practically like I'm somebody that was extremely frugal,
• 43:49
  extremely scared to spend money and very aggressive saving when
• 43:54
  I was young.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so I've learned to trust that part of me.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: Too many people have that lesson.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: They learned growing up about saving, don't spending.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: You need to be safe.
• 44:12
  They don't learn to trust that person and then move on to the
• 44:15
  next phase of their life.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_00: So in the first five years of working on my own,
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: I was making like 30 grand some years,
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_00: but I broke even and I cut my spending down.
• 44:26
  And so I realized I have this sort of natural limiter in myself
• 44:31
  that is very
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: frugal,
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: very prudent with money.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so if I'm making less,
• 44:36
  I'll probably aggressively cut spending and make sure I have
• 44:40
  the things in order.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: I also practically do a quarterly check-in
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: I just run the numbers.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like I track how much I spend.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: I track how much I'm making.
• 44:52
  And as long as I'm like breaking even or even just like losing
• 44:55
  a little money each
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: month,
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: I sort of can see,
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: I still have this runway.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 45:03
  If I have 50 grand in savings and I'm making five grand a month
• 45:12
  and I'm spending
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_00: seven grand a month,
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_00: that's two grand a month that I'm burning, right?
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: And if I had 50 grand in savings,
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: if I have confidence that I can keep going at that rate,
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: that means I have 25 months until my cash savings hits zero.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so if I look at that in the screen, even if I'm losing money,
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to say like, screw it.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: Let's keep going.
• 45:41
  Like at the end of my life,
• 45:43
  I'm not going to wish that I spent more time pursuing safety.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to wish I spent more time pursuing my dreams,
• 45:51
  going after my bold creative dreams and like doing work I
• 45:55
  actually care about.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so as long as there is like some buffer and runway,
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: like I'm just going to keep going on this path.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_01: So you have more of like a spiritual approach.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's very, very Taoist and spiritual.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: How did you become this way?
• 46:15
  Like coming from your background,
• 46:17
  like MIT and Mackenzie,
• 46:19
  like you're anything but spiritual.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: You're projecting traits onto me.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_02: Correct.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_00: From those backgrounds.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's true.
• 46:29
  I told you before,
• 46:30
  I've always been this experimental weirdo pushing the
• 46:33
  boundaries.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: Freshman year of college,
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: my first chemistry class,
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_00: I realized that they just put the lectures online before class,
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_00: and then the professor just reads the lectures.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so me and my friend were like,
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: let's just not go to class and see what we can get for grades.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so I didn't go to class all semester.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: I only went to the exam and the final exam.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so by not going to class, I like paid attention less.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so...
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I ended up getting like a B+.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was like, that's pretty cool.
• 47:13
  I saved an entire semester of going to class,
• 47:16
  and I still did like okay in class.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so I wasn't judging myself, but like I need to get perfect.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so I've always been playing with these boundaries and saying like,
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_00: what if I do a little less?
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so that same attitude I take to this path, which is like,
• 47:37
  okay,
• 47:39
  with book promotion,
• 47:41
  the idea is you should do as much as possible to promote your
• 47:45
  book.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_00: And the question is, well, what if I just don't do anything at all?
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so I love playing with those boundaries.
• 47:56
  The thing is,
• 47:58
  when you lean into this mode of life,
• 48:00
  people are kind of entertained too.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_00: And they're kind of curious about what you're doing.
• 48:07
  But I'm able to do it because like the way I approach my
• 48:11
  writing is like I write
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_00: about this and I approach my writing in that way.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I genuinely approach my marketing and my book in this way.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I approach my life like this.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's all like connected.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like you can't fake a certain stance toward life.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so if the hidden secret of the pathless path,
• 48:33
  and I think this is why people end up reading it like three or
• 48:36
  four times.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like my readers are nuts.
• 48:38
  They're like,
• 48:40
  I think they're trying to soak up the energy that I transmitted
• 48:44
  into the book.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_00: I took a very spiritual like Taoist stance toward writing the book.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't follow any playbooks.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't follow any best practices.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_00: I just asked myself, like, what feels right to do?
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: What feels right in terms of structuring this book?
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: What way of ordering words,
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: sentences,
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: paragraphs,
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_00: the flow of the book feels delightful and interesting and fun to me?
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then I just published that.
• 49:12
  A month before I finished the book,
• 49:15
  my editor was like,
• 49:16
  I don't think it's ready to publish.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think...
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_00: this has potential to be a really great popular nonfiction book.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: But she said,
• 49:26
  I think you need to follow the format of what other popular
• 49:30
  nonfiction books are
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: doing,
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: like books like Deep Work and things like this.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: Add structured takeaways at the end,
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_00: tell people how to implement this,
• 49:38
  spend more time telling people how to embrace the pathless path
• 49:42
  in their life,
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_00: give them activities to do.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_00: I was just like, no.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to do that.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because if that book succeeded, I wouldn't be excited about it.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't want to promote it.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, everything is about doing what feels right.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: But the thing is, my book sales are declining now.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: I probably could have sold more books if I sold it to Penguin.
• 50:09
  I might be making more money if I sold it to them because I'd
• 50:12
  have all these
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_00: speaking gigs coming in and I might be more of a sustainable author.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_00: But that's not the life I want to live.
• 50:22
  And so I'm willing to just take on a lot more risk than most
• 50:26
  people because I'm
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_00: actually living the life I want to live.
• 50:30
  My days,
• 50:30
  98% of my days have been on my terms and absolutely delightful
• 50:35
  from the beginning.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not aiming at a future potential life.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm living the life I want right now.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 50:52
  And how many people do you know who are doing the same thing
• 50:55
  you're doing?
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's like all the people I know now.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I don't have any normal friends anymore.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_00: I have many friends that are like happy in jobs,
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_00: but even among those people,
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_00: like I'm usually closest to the people that are like,
• 51:17
  I'm doing this on my terms or like I'm only doing the work I
• 51:21
  care about at my job.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I just think it's much more possible than people think.
• 51:27
  Most of it is about deprogramming yourselves from the scripts
• 51:30
  of what you should do
• 51:32
  and then just showing up to life with the full force of like
• 51:35
  your life force and
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_00: saying this is who I am,
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: this is how I'm going to operate.
• 51:41
  Is there anyone who inspires you or like a book that inspired
• 51:44
  you or someone that
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_01: kind of… Oh,
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_00: yeah.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's so many inspirations.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think…
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just like an avid reader.
• 51:55
  I think writing is fun for me because I'm just inspired by so
• 51:59
  many books and so
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_00: many writers and so many creative type people.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think like David White's books have been transformational.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_00: They've given me a new language for...
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_00: Communicating.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_00: What's his name?
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_00: David Dwight?
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, David Dwight.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_00: Crossing the Unknown Sea.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like, actually not his poetry books.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_00: More his prose books.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like, reading the three marriages just, like, rocked my world.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_00: And, yeah, it...
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_00: That book,
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 52:39
  Tuesdays with Maury is like so inspiring for me because of the
• 52:43
  life Mitch album led
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_00: after he wrote that book.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_00: He talks about Maury's story,
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_00: which is powerful,
• 52:50
  but Mitch then transformed his life and went on to adopt
• 52:54
  children from orphanages,
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_00: invest time in Haiti,
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_00: turned his life around,
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_00: really focused on the things that mattered.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_00: That book continues to resonate with people,
• 53:05
  and I've reread it three or four times because of the life he
• 53:09
  lived and what he
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_00: injected into it.
• 53:13
  And the great thing about Tuesdays with Maury is like the
• 53:15
  publisher didn't want to
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_00: publish it because it was too short.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the right format.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_00: They needed to add more structure.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_00: It needed to be longer.
• 53:26
  But it worked because it was true and real and it genuinely
• 53:30
  transmitted something that mattered.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I mean, I could go on.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_00: If you go to pathlesspath.com slash Rex,
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_00: R-E-C-S,
• 53:40
  you'll find like 21 books that have really inspired me and I
• 53:44
  think are great for
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_00: people on unconventional paths.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_01: we've been chatting for an hour now,
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_01: and I just want to ask you about your future plans.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_01: Are you planning to write more books?
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_01: What do you have in mind?
• 53:59
  So in addition to publishing your newsletter,
• 54:02
  what is your plan in terms of your creative work?
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just dropping that link in there.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm just going to keep going until I run out of money.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_00: For the past two years, we've really been focusing on my White's book.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's pretty incredible.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_00: We're pretty much done with it now.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's so good.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to be so great.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_00: What is it about?
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's about Asian identity.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's about emigrating to the U.S.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_00: as an adult.
• 54:33
  It's about the challenges of like shifting between different
• 54:37
  social classes and
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_00: trying to work in different worlds,
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_00: finding her work path,
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_00: getting to know herself and like becoming a mother.
• 54:46
  And so like it's very much like packed with like all the most
• 54:52
  common themes of like
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_00: being a woman in today's world.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's definitely going to resonate with like Asian Americans,
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_00: people who've lived in different countries and people struggling to find
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_00: themselves.
• 55:09
  But yeah,
• 55:09
  I've been like the lead editor and like her informal book coach
• 55:13
  on that.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_00: And it's been a really fun project to work with her.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited about that.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's publishing in Chinese first.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm then going to translate.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_00: with her into English and publish it sometime in 2026.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_00: I have like three book drafts I've started.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_00: I just keep starting book drafts.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's like my law.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_00: I need to figure out how to ship something this upcoming year.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_00: But this upcoming year,
• 55:40
  we're also going to be participating in something called the
• 55:44
  Traveling Village,
• 55:45
  where we're going to be traveling to three different countries
• 55:47
  in Asia with 20
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_00: families.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll probably write about that a little.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very much like...
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like for the last two and a half years after becoming a parent,
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't really found a groove at all in my creative work.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's been hard.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't know...
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to make it all work in the next few years,
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_00: but I'm excited to find out what I come up with.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well, this has been wonderful and I have to say unconventional.
• 56:21
  And I like that because it was completely different from other
• 56:25
  conversations we had
• 56:27
  because there was like a lot of chat about growth and hacks and
• 56:31
  income and
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_01: different income streams.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_00: Don't follow me for growth hacks.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_00: I have no idea.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like, here's the thing about me.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_00: I walk around and I'm thinking about like sentences or ideas.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just like, man, that's such a cool idea.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_00: How could I like reframe that idea?
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_00: Or like, oh, I'm writing this thing.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to figure out how to say this.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_00: How do I piece together these sentences?
• 56:55
  There are like tons of hustle bros online you can follow for
• 56:58
  like growth hacks and
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_00: how to make money and get rich online.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm probably the worst person to follow for that.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_00: I share everything I do.
• 57:07
  Everything I have done for my book,
• 57:10
  I've shared in my post about marketing.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_00: If you just go to pathlesspath.com slash marketing,
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_00: everything I've done,
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_00: all the money I've made,
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_00: every single detail of how I've approached it is there.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_00: But you probably can't repeat it because I don't even know how it works.
• 57:27
  There are people that are much better at doing the traditional
• 57:31
  playbooks and stuff.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_00: I realize about me, I'm not wired for the playbooks.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_00: When I try to go do book launch strategy,
• 57:42
  I lose energy,
• 57:43
  things don't work,
• 57:44
  people ignore me,
• 57:47
  nothing goes to plan.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_00: But when I'm like connected to myself,
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm having fun,
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like trying stuff,
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_00: like things like magically start working.
• 57:56
  And so I think you really have to get to know what are the kind
• 58:00
  of person you are
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_00: in this creative world,
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_00: this creator economy.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_00: And starting from there and then figuring out.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_01: Before we conclude, I have one last question.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_01: What is the future of work?
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_02: We need another hour.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_01: No, do you think like we are all going to eventually become creators?
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like, do you think that's where we're headed?
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think we already are.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I think most knowledge work is creative work.
• 58:39
  And so I think this idea of like the future of work,
• 58:42
  like if,
• 58:43
  see,
• 58:43
  this is another thing.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_00: If I was smart, I would lean into the future of work topic.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_00: I would talk to like how corporations can embrace the future of work.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_00: I would morph myself into a Simon Sinek,
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_00: Adam Grant person,
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_00: and I would be making a lot more money.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_00: The truth is I don't know what the future of work looks like.
• 59:02
  I think the most interesting take I have on this is that I
• 59:06
  think it's mostly cope.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like we should stop talking about the future of work.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_00: For most people,
• 59:12
  their work scripts haven't even matched the reality of the
• 59:15
  reality of the now of
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_00: work that we're living in now.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_00: The now of work is radically different than it was 30 years ago.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_00: But we still pretend like this future of work is going to save us.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_00: The fact is like most people are using AI in their day jobs.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_00: Most people have way more flexibility than they did before.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_00: They can work remotely and they can work online.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_00: They're connecting with people.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_00: Most people are forced and nudged
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_00: to be much more creative.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_00: Most knowledge work is creative work.
• 59:48
  And so I think updating to how are you actually doing those
• 59:52
  things in today's
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_00: world,
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_00: what is the formula and the story you're telling yourself about work,
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_00: update those to match the current reality.
• 1:00:02
  And that's where you can actually create a more interesting
• 1:00:06
  future of work for yourself.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_00: But like the future of work,
• 1:00:10
  the whole conversation is mostly just like nonsense projection
• 1:00:13
  about like scary
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_00: things to get clicks.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh, AI is going to take our jobs.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_00: The fact is we have no idea if AI is going to take our jobs.
• 1:00:21
  The reality is it probably won't in the short term because
• 1:00:24
  we're obsessed with jobs
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_00: and paychecks.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_00: We love them.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_00: Humans love nothing more than the stable paycheck.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_00: We're like crack addicts to a stable paycheck.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're going to keep just creating jobs in the near term.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_00: In the long term,
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_00: at the margin,
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_00: maybe transaction costs do fall and a new kind of economy emerges.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it's going to take a long term.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't know what the future looks like.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just trying to figure out what I'm going to do today and tomorrow.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_01: The power of now.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Paul, thank you very much.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_01: This has been really wonderful.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, it just gives me a lot of ideas to think.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_01: And for anyone who wants to get in touch with you,
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_01: they can just go to your website,
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_01: pathlesspass.com or your sub stack,
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_01: correct?
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_01: Where do you prefer people to reach out to you?
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm not hard to find.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_00: Just Google Paul Millard.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm the only one with an internet presence,
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_00: and I pretty much respond to any thoughtful message or email.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm not hard to engage with.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm not one of those people that puts up paywalls to access me.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_00: As long as you're willing to communicate in text,
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'll connect with people and answer any questions.
• 1:01:44
  I can't really do video calls with people or do those things
• 1:01:48
  because my daughter gets that time.
• 1:01:51
  But if you want to send me questions and urge me to write you
• 1:01:54
  back,
• 1:01:54
  I love writing.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_00: So very easy for me.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, great.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you for your time.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I wish you the best of luck.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_01: And for anyone who joined us today, thank you again.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I will see you on Substack.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_00: Sounds good.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for this.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_00: Very fun.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Bob.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_01: Appreciate it.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for all the questions.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if we got to it.
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_00: Did we get any questions we didn't answer?
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think we just got comments.
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_02: Nice.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but we can just go back.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_01: We're good.
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much, Paul.
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_01: Take care.
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it's 10.30 p.m.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_01: here, so I will probably call it a day.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_01: Take care, Paul.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_01: Take care.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_00: Bye-bye.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_00: Bye.