Latest / Skin Anarchy / A Breakthrough in Exosome Skincare ft. Madhavi Gavini of Droplette

Transcript

A Breakthrough in Exosome Skincare ft. Madhavi Gavini of Droplette · Skin Anarchy

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hey guys, welcome back to Skin Anarchy.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: This is a very, very special episode.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm welcoming back a very dear friend of mine, also someone I truly admire for her work in the scientific space and the skin health space.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: She is truly a genius.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: And this brand is very special to me because they were one of our first big science forward brands that we hosted on Skin Anarchy.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: So to welcome them back, it's truly like a full circle moment for me.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: So without further ado, please welcome back the founder of Droplet, Madvi.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome, Mothvi.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited to host you again.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited to be here.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: I'm really excited to chat about what we've been building and so good to see you again, Ekta.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, it's so good.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just so excited about what you're continuing to do in this space.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I know when we first spoke about Droplet, and I'm gonna have you like walk our listeners through the whole journey again, but just to like preface, like when you first told me about Droplet, I was like blown away.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and I still am, you know, like to this day, I'm like, this is so revolutionary, especially now, I think more than ever, when consumers care so much about like, are you getting the most out of your products?
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: Is it going to the layers it needs to go into?
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: So all of that stuff coming together and like understanding your science is so, I don't know, it's just such a fresh, like a breath of fresh air, you know, in the industry.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: So with me ranting, um, I want to now give you the mic and have you tell us, um, you know, tell us about Droplet for everybody that might have missed the first episode.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, where did it start?
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: So Droplet initially started as a medical technology.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so my background is in pharmaceutical development.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: I worked in designing drugs for pediatric patients.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: And along the way, I worked in pediatric cardiomyopathy, so heart disease in children.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: And along the way, um, I learned about this rare disease called epidermal lysis bullosa, which anyone in the dermatology field is unfortunately very familiar with.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: And it's basically one where patients are missing a gene that codes for a connective protein that connects your skin to the tissue below it.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: And when that gene is missing, the skin doesn't properly adhere.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: So, as a drug designer, the way I've been trained to think about it is you target the protein, like you find a therapeutic, and then you know, you're you're done.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: The disease is cured.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: And unfortunately for skin, for many skin conditions, that's just not true because delivery is actually the big challenge.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: So in this case, the treatment is a gene therapy, which is, you know, like not to minimize the field, but it's it's doable, right?
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but the issue in terms of actual treatment is getting the gene to where it needs to go in the tissue.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: So that's how I got um involved in the delivery problem.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_02: And that was the entire basis for droplet technology.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: So, what we've designed is this little handheld device that's able to take very large molecular weight ingredients, molecules, things like genes, but also things in the cosmetic space like collagen, like exosomes.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: And we can deliver it painlessly into your skin by basically creating these very fast-moving sub-micron droplets that can penetrate the stratum corneum and you get effective delivery.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: And that's kind of the core technology.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: We are a little bit bifurcated, right?
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: We have a whole arm of the business in the medical side where we work with partners at Tufts Medical Center.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: We've worked with collaborators at MIT and a few other universities, including Walter Reed and the University of Columbia, doing delivery of things like gene therapy.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we'll talk a little bit about exosomes.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: So we've done a lot of work with that more recently, and then also antibiotics.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: And then, of course, taking that same core technology and applying it to skincare where you have exactly the same issue, which is there are amazing ingredients out there, but we're not able to unlock their potential until they actually get into the skin.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: And now we have a way of doing that.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, it's so so fascinating that you started from that space, you know, because I mean, I have these conversations on this podcast, and I feel like no one ever talks about how like some of the most crazy good innovations come from this like really deep understanding of just like health and like genetics and cellular, you know, biology and all of these things that we don't really get to hear much about, you know, as in the consumer space.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so I love that droplets origins are from that like very, very heavy science because I think that's what this industry needs more of.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so I want to kind of like play on that and have you really talk us through exosomes because I'm sure you've seen it, we've all seen it.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: Exosomes are everywhere, everything's buzzing about them, you know.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I really feel like the information is just not complete, you know, with the with the science and the knowledge.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd love for you to explain exosomes to us and just kind of like walk us through it like a one-on-one.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, of course.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, okay, so exosomes are uh extracellular vesicles that are secrete, like they're secreted by cells.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: So they're secreted by both healthy cells as well as sick cells.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: And basically the envelope, the thing that makes the external shape of the exosomes is able to be readily, can be readily absorbed by other cells.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: So they're basically these cell-to-cell messengers and they contain many, many things inside of them.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know, exosome characterization is kind of its own field, but at a high level, it contains um DNA, RNA, um, multiple types of RNA, so messenger RNA, sRNA, um, and so on.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: And then it also contains various proteins.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: And they are kind of this active area of research because there's been some very interesting observations in in the field where essentially if you take the exosomes from cells that have um that are sick, right?
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: So cells like hypertrophic cardiomyocytes, for example, and you put them next near healthy cells and they get absorbed, those healthy cells take on that same profile.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: They become sicker.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_02: And the inverse, which is why it's relevant in medicine, is also true.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: If you take exosomes from, let's say, healthy mesenchymal stem cells, and you apply them to injury, so to, you know, injured or insulted skin or tissue or organs, you get really interesting recovery.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so it was really this observation that you know blew up the world of exosomes.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we're still trying to understand as a field, you know, the true potential, like what can they do?
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: Where are in fact the limitations?
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_02: And um there's a whole area of research as well in creating synthetic ones, which as far as I'm aware, it's it's not quite, it's not the same as as you know, what's biologically like what's derived.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: And then as with many things, there's hype around it.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: So um now there's talk about like plant exosomes or exosomes coming from non-human sources being applied to human biology.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, that's it's it's just not the same.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's not the same.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm glad you touched on that.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually want to ask you a follow-up on that because I think regenerative medicine is taking off, you know, and I and I see it applied every day more and more in skincare.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: But I think there's a huge um misunderstanding also that's taking place where people are now saying stem cells and exosomes in the same sentence and like they're confusing the two.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I want you to explain that to us too, if you can.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what is the difference between a stem cell and then the exosome itself?
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: Of course.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: Well, a stem cell is a cell.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they are typically like pluripotent or multipotent, which means they have the ability to differentiate into a bunch of different tissue types, right?
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: They can become theoretically skin cells, or they can become cardiac cells or brain cells.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: And they're a very interesting source of exosomes, but you can't deliver, there isn't at the moment a universal stem cell that you can deliver.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: So you can do auto, what's called autologous stem cell transfer.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's used therapeutically in in quite a few different indications, including cancer treatment, I believe.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: But the idea there is you're taking your own stem cells and then you're administering it back to yourself.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: And that's fine because you're not going to have an immune response to it.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_02: But you can't take, let's say, my stem cells and administer them to you because you know there's gonna be an immune response.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's not necessarily compatible.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: And it's, you know, an extreme example of that would be like organ rejection.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: Like you need you need a match.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_02: So there are companies working on universal stem cells that don't trigger an immunogenic response or an allergenic response between, you know, between people that can be used across the board.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's very exciting research, but it's not, it's just not commercially available yet.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: So um, so stem cells like are not, you can't use those at the moment, um, unless they're your own.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: But exosomes are secreted by stem cells and they contain um a large amount of like the goodies in stem cells, right?
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_02: They they are the signal to cells to proliferate, to uh regenerate, and um, you know, and to basically behave like younger cells, for lack of a better, a better phrase.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so you get much of the same benefits in some of the more current research from the exudate of those stem cells.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: So that would be what we call the conditioned media, and that that contains obviously exosomes, but other things too.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that's often what's used in regenerative medicine.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: So it's coming from stem cells, but it's not the cells directly.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: Makes sense.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: And also I like that you brought up plant exosomes.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we've talked about that a few times.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: So, Maldri, I want to ask you about um exosome, like the actual sourcing, because not all exosomes are created equal as we have seen.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think a lot of times, like, you know, the industry can kind of put the cart before the horse.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that's happened with exosomes.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really important for us to understand like, what do we need to know about the sourcing and then cell quality and all of those things, if you could kind of tell us about that.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: So the way we think about it at Droplet is um exosomes, in a way, are a proxy for the quality of the cells and the type of cells that you're you're administering.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: So, for example, with the product that we're launching, our exosome starter set, we source our exosomes from mesenchymal stem cell conditioned media.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: And what that is, is they're mesenchymal stem cells.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: So they are um human derived from like healthy consenting adult donors who are who are young and screened.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and we basically work with the biotech company, they basically grow these cells to confluency and they extract the conditioned media, and that media is a source of our exosomes.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so those cells are healthy, like they are viability checked, they are nice and round and happy cells.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so the quality of the exosomes as a result of that are quite good.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: In contrast, if you were to source exosomes from uh, let's say like cardiomyocytes, heart cells, they're they're probably not going to do much for your skin because it's a completely different cell type, you might see some benefit, but it's it's unlikely that you'll see a lot of regenerative potential unless you're administering them to the cardiac tissue.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: And similarly, if you are growing cells under like suboptimal conditions and those cells aren't happy, then the exosomes, and and I actually heard about this happening.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: Like people are using immortalized cell lines, which is which are cancer cell lines, you're getting exosomes from that.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like you should not be administering those to people, right?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: Those are those are sick cancerous cells.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_02: So the source of um the source of the exosome is is really, really critical in terms of the constituents and the quality of the exosome.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: That makes sense.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, it's important to understand that, I think, because you know, people are throwing around like the idea that, you know, this is regenerative, right?
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: So regenerative medicine, like what does that mean?
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: So it's going to help heal your skin.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you're not getting the right signals like that are going to be mimetic with those cells, you're not going to be able to kind of elicit that cascade that's going to lead to regeneration.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's, I mean, a lot of times I think consumers get lost in that, you know, because we think exosome is an exosome, stem cell is a stem cell.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: Why does it matter?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that's a very, very important differentiation.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: Now, talking about mesenchymal stem cells, um, I would love for you to dive deeper into this, you know, like go deeper into like why that matters in terms of deriving exosomes from these specific stem cells, um especially when it comes to regeneration.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's a good question.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: So mesenchymal stem cells are a pluripotent stem cell line, which means they have the ability to differentiate into multiple different tissue types.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so as a consequence, the exosomes that they secrete contain a very broad array of signaling molecules.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_02: And those are designed to act across a broad array of tissue types.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_02: And that's really like the key for why we find this, um, we find this so interesting.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a huge amount of academic literature on mesenchymal stem cell condition media and mesenchymal stem cell exosomes.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_02: And in fact, in our our own work, um, we partner with a group at Tufts Medical Center, um, Dr.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: Lakshmi Pulakad.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: And the work we do with them is supported, um, it's supported by the DOD.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: We recently, um, you know, this is not quite yet published, um, but will be soon.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_02: But one of the projects we did with their Technology and Therapeutic Development Award was delivering exosomes from mesenchymal stem cell condition media through droplet into what are called stage four pressure ulcers.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: And these are chronic non-healing wounds.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: You're familiar with them, obviously, with your background.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: So, as you know, um, the tissue and muscle regeneration and stage four ulcers, and these were in urine models, those are not recoverable with any current technology.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: What we've been able to demonstrate is using the exosomes from this condition media, which is the same thing that we are launching in our cosmetic product, we're actually able to see recovery of that tissue.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: So you're able to get muscle covering up those ulcers and those wounds are healing and you're recovering some function for the limb.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: And that for us was like the most compelling piece of evidence that made us very excited to continue working with this particular product.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I think that's that's really like what gets us excited in the morning.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm over here just like cheesing because I'm like so excited for you.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's phenomenal.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's phenomenal.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so you haven't published it yet, right?
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: Because I was I want to link it for our listeners to no.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: We have a few other papers that we're happy to happy to link, and this one's um this one's coming out soon, but where it's obviously with with our collaborating partners, and and that's gonna come out um fairly soon, we hope.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's oh my gosh, that's amazing.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: And for everyone listening out there, I mean, if you guys could see like if you see these wounds and like just how much of a brick wall you run into when it comes to anything related to healing them, any anything.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's like it's like a climbing a mountain, you know.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: So that is absolutely phenomenal.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited for you.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm so excited for everybody to try this product because of that.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you can, if you can elicit anything that is, you know, healing in nature and something like that where your body is literally screaming for help and it's pretty much run out of all of its supply of trying to heal itself, um, that's huge.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's it's a huge statement.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: So um with that in mind, uh I want to move on to understanding exosomes a little bit better because, you know, I think one of the biggest things that comes up, right, is that a lot of times the preparations of these exosome products lead to them actually becoming, you know, just kind of inert, you know, there's nothing really left there because they're incredibly fragile.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, can you talk us, Motherbe, through that?
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why is there so much difficulty in using exosomes in skincare?
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: And how does fragility really play a role in in making sure that the products are really viable when you get them?
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's it's a it's a good question.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: So exosomes are um, so exosomal storage, you're you're going to inevitably get some degradation in the way it's stored once you extract it from right from a tissue source.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: And typically, like in a in a medical setting, and that's what we replicate in a lot of ways, a droplet, you would take this and you would keep it frozen.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like this is not a product that can be stored at room temperature when it's in, when it's in solution.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's that's actually what we do.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: So with our product, we um we get it from the manufacturer on ice, it's formulated on ice.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: We've built these fill seal robots that temporarily thawed and fill it, and they're extremely fast.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: They're like hundreds of times faster than a person would be, and they're in single dose capsules that are stored in your freezer that we ship them to you on ice.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_02: So we kind of do that end-to-end cold storage and we've sort of verified it where we've had it shipped to a customer and shipped back and confirmed that there's like bioavailable products still in there.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: Unfortunately, like exosomes are not particularly stable at room temperature.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: So they might be for a couple of weeks.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: But if you think about the life cycle of most products, they're, you know, they're just not, you're not even getting to them within the first few weeks of those of that product being made.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: And then when you think about storage, so if you're not freezing it, then there's a process called lyophilization.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: And that's basically where you're you're drying it out.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so you are able to preserve stable exosomes that way, but the problem isn't the lyophilization, it's the rehydration process.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: So when it goes back into solution, especially if you have emollient or other products, it's going to degrade the outside, right?
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: That lipid layer.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: And then the constituents of it will get secreted and degraded.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: And as a result of that, um, you know, you and I have talked about this before.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like when you do SEM, you don't really see exosomes in the majority of in any of the products really that have exosomes.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, exactly.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's that's really interesting though, that it's that rethawing process, you know what I mean?
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the interesting part because I think people just think like these are little vesicles and they're just gonna stay that way.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: But it's yeah, I mean, they're little, like little membranes, just you know, just closed on themselves.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's a huge, huge thing.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I I really feel like the industry like needs to educate on this.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: And for anyone out there that's like using an exosome product, like I really urge you to kind of ask your brands, you know, like, how did you make this product?
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not trying to call anybody out, I'm just being honest.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like, from the science perspective, it's worth understanding, you know, these details because that's the vibe that's the viability of the product.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to talk about though this whole like um degrading at room uh temperature thing, though how long, how long can something stay viable at room temperature?
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, just to give people like a little framework.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it depends, and it depends on the format.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_02: So if you have something that's like in an emollient, it's a very short period of time because that fat is degrading the like hydrophobic layer essentially, right?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: So um, so that's that's pretty limited.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_02: If it's in like a saline-based solution with a preservative system, probably a few weeks.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's about your max, maybe a month.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: But even then, you're getting it's continual degradation, right?
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: So you're talking at like 100% down to zero percent is kind of that time course.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: Makes sense.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: Now, in terms of like, okay, so being being intact is huge, you know, that's like the big thing.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: You want to make sure your your product is actually usable.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: But then obviously, like in the US, you know, like we can't inject exosomes, like even in a clinic, it's not allowed by the FDA.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, why does delivery really matter here?
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: And like, like, I would love for you to speak on this um in terms of like you know, getting that potential out of these products, you know, in terms of like the delivery component.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: Well, so exosomes, so your skin is a barrier, right?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like fundamental skin biology, your skin is a is a barrier, it protects you.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's designed to keep things out.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: And exosomes are are quite large molecules.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: So the rule of thumb is anything over 500 Daltons, and a Dalton is a unit of molecular weight, anything over 500 Daltons can't penetrate.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: And there's obviously exceptions, like heparin is a famous example of an exception to that.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: And there are things under 500 Daltons similarly that don't get in.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: So that's it's just a general rule.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: Exosomes are thousands of times larger than 500 Daltons.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: They are very, very large vesicles.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so you do get, I think, a little bit of a tiny bit of absorption when it's applied topically, but it's it's very little.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: So there's no, it's not enough to really have a proper biological effect.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: And that's where the droplet technology comes in, because once again, our core technology is taking these very large things and delivering them past the stratum cornea where they can get into your skin.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: And so when you pair the two of them together, as we did in in the that stage four pressure pressure ulcerine model and some of our other published data, you're able to achieve like painless delivery and that ingredient remains stable and can be biologically active, uh, resulting in in the benefit.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: That makes sense.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think that's that's a big thing for regenerative medicine right now, I think, in general, because people are piling on all of these products and they're just like, well, it's gonna repair my skin.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, well, that's if it gets to the cells it's supposed to get to, you know, like especially when you're talking about, I mean, you know, there's so much buzz around like fiber blast signaling, you know, care protecting keratinos, all of this stuff, but it's like you're not even reaching the that area, you know what I mean?
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, that's where I I really I worry about consumers because they end up spending so much money, you know, and on a lot of these products and then don't get any results.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: So that's right.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, and in a clinical setting, because that's one place where they are used.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: And also it's interesting because if you talk to any germs who use it, it's always frozen.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_02: So this is clearly something people in the field know.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um but they they typically do it after microneedling.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: So you are insulting the skin, right?
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: You have um basically like holes being poked into your face, and so you have some improved permeability for that period.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's that's very interesting.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: However, we do know that like continuous repeat application of this is the most beneficial.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: So you you get benefit from once or twice, but it's a little bit more.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, this is a silly analogy, but it's a little bit more like a vitamin.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like you want to be taking that every day to keep those circulating levels higher.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so you can't, you shouldn't microneedle your face, medical microneedle your face every day.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's that's where this technology and the ability to do it at home um like unlocks that additional dimension and and the potential of this product.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: And also because so many people are scared of microneedling too.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: I've heard that a lot.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like a lot of people like will chime into our emails and be like, I don't want to do microneedling, you know, what can I do?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: And and so this is amazing, amazing for all of you out there that are just like too scared or maybe just didn't sit well with you, you know.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: This is a really great option as well.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I know you guys have a professional arm to all of this.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if you could tell us more about that versus the one that's going out to consumers.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: So we have um we have an exosome product called Trillium, and that's what we use in dermatology clinics.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: So we have um very Various professionals who are who are using it across like New York and Boston.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_02: And that is a pure exosome product with just a minimal preservative system.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, purely derived from stem cell, human stem cell conditioned media.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's a high concentration.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, it's like 100% essentially.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: And we use that same core ingredient as the basis for our exosome capsules that are sold to consumers.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: So think of it as like the professional strength and the at-home strength.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: And that version is used in a couple of ways.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: They use it after microneedling, but it's also being used after laser treatments.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: And that one's actually pretty interesting.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're familiar with laser, you know that they do ice packs after, and ice packs are obviously great for cooling the skin, but you can sometimes like vasoconstrict a little bit too much and it can impair healing.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: And the mechanism of these is anti-inflammatory.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: So you're kind of turning off like those inflammatory signals and turning on like regenerative ones.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: So you get the same like sensation of cooling, but without the risk of vasoconstriction.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so we've had quite a few practices who are um who use it now in lieu of ice packs.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and they've seen improved healing in their patients after laser treatments.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's really interesting.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: So like basically it's like you this is an in-office, this is the in-office version.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really, really fascinating.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think that, you know, for me, I don't understand like the I know a lot of people use like the ice, like the ice baths and the, you know.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: And that was exactly, I used to always wonder that, you know, from a science perspective, it's like all that vasoconstriction, like you're not getting blood to where it needs to heal.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really interesting.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, in terms of like understanding, so I know like since the professional um arm is there, and then you can go into an office, like, you know, Dr.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: Belcom's office, you can go there and get that done.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: So then do you follow up with at-home maintenance with the consumer product at home then?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, that's exactly the way to think about it.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I think they're kind of two different things.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_02: One is like a big bolus treatment after, you know, insult or injury to the skin and tissue, whether it's microneedling or laser or whatever.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: So the idea there is improved recovery and regeneration after that injury.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: And then the at home is just kind of keeping the stable, elevated, like steady increase.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's almost like your daily vitamin in that sense.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so yeah, the benefits are are different.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_02: One is like acute and the other is more longitudinal.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: Makes sense.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: Makes sense.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's really exciting.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I I'm glad that you did that because then it's like, you know, you have a full like treatment that you're you're following through on.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I think especially, you know, I wanted to say this, and I, and this is my opinion, you know.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: So for everyone listening, like I feel like that when you can stick to a routine, like when you have an easy way to stick to it, like you're gonna see the results.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like especially with these like emerging fields of science coming into skincare and topical delivery of these ingredients.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's so, so important.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think now more than ever for people to get on a routine.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like droplet just like, I don't know.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: I've oh I when I first, like I said, when I first discovered you guys, I think that's why I was just so obsessed because it was like, this is something you can use every day and you don't have to think about it.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: You it's like everything's built in, right?
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like the consumer experience, and like, you know, just you use the device, you know it's getting done, you know the the ingredients are going where they need to go.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so I just feel like it's so great for those of you out there that are like, I don't know what to do with my routine, I'm too lazy or I'm too tired at the end of the day.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, those kind of factors, this eliminates a lot of that, you know?
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so that consistency is going to be built into using a device like this.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I just want to say that for our listeners because so many people, Maldiv, honestly, I can't tell you, so many people chime in with like, I don't know how many steps I should be using at night and all this stuff, you know?
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's so important to have these kind of options in the industry.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, no, I mean, you know, huge hats off to you.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, honestly, this is this is such a breakthrough, and I can't wait for people to discover the exosome product.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: I've been using it myself.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: I love it, and I'm just so excited for you to bring this.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_02: That's great.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, we are too.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_02: And and like love getting the technical questions.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: I think we're happy to talk science all day.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: So it makes us so happy when other people are equally willing to geek out with us on it.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: So excited to welcome back Dr.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: Dan Balkin, who is a double board certified New York City-based dermatologist.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: Balkin was on the show, if you guys remember a few episodes back talking to us and educating us about lasers.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: And today he is going to tell us about his use of droplets exosomes for uh professional products and his practice.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back, Dr.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: Balcon.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited to have you back.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, Dr.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: Balcom.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: Good to see you.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, good to see you as well.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm excited you're joining us.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I have a few questions for you.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I I wanted to, we were just talking about droplet, you know, in terms of like like really kind of the logistics and understanding like how to use the device and like what it means.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I think from your perspective, I'd love to learn more about in the professional setting, you know, the real benefits of using the device and especially with the exosome product.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: Can you tell us like how are exosomes being used in professional applications right now in dermatology?
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, exosomes are still being they're sort of like the frontier of sort of regenerative skincare and medicine.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, they're still being studied and they're very exciting.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a lot of anecdotal evidence that they're helping with skin aging and hair growth.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of people all over the world are injecting them dermally or subdermally, but that's not legal to do in the United States.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: They're not FDA approved for injection.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: So the way that people get around that is they're using it with either microneedling.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: So with microneedling, you can get penetration through the stratum corneum and you'll get higher concentrations into the epidermis and the dermis, or with the droplet device.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, when I, one of my f patients first told me about droplet and I connected with the company, I was really skeptical because I was like, you know, to get dermal penetration of topical ingredients without needling seems kind of unbelievable.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was I was really skeptical of it, um, but excited.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then when I met with them and I talked to Modavy, you know, she showed me all the research and it's it's kind of amazing.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: So it allows me to get dermal penetration of actives without, you know, any injury to the skin.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's I mean, it's really remarkable.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm I'm just curious, you know, what has your experience been historically with exosomes, like in terms of like maybe even results or just maybe some hiccups that you've kind of encountered using them in the office?
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I haven't really been using them because I haven't really felt comfortable doing that with exosomes.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, they're human derived.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: And uh a lot of the topical products are kind of unclear, you know, the sourcing is unclear.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they're they don't have good cold storage logistics.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: So you don't know if it's like being, you know, refrigerated the whole way.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they're plant-based exosomes, which really, you know, don't do much at all.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so you just like don't really know what you're getting because it's not FDA approved, there's just not a lot of regulation.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: So Modity will go into it more, but like, but Droplet sources its exosomes from the same place as the Department of the Defense.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: There's cold storage logistics.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I feel very comfortable with where they're sourcing.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so that this is sort of the first time that I've started incorporating exosomes into the office.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't been doing it before.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I feel like this is a whole new category in itself.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what droplets doing and the way you guys are reintroducing.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I feel like I was talking to Mali about this, Dr.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: Balkan, I don't know if you agree, but it was like we put the cart before the horse with some of these regenerative medicine ingredients.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like, you know, and now we're circling back and we're realizing that was never gonna work, you know.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: So this is really, really fascinating and incredibly exciting to see that, you know, you can obviously go into an office and have a professional do this for you, or you can do it at home.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so I just want to get your take on that as well, you know, in terms of putting this into the hands of the consumer, giving them the ability to really interact with regenerative medicine.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what are your thoughts around that?
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: I I mean, I think it's great.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like I think it's people want to have something that they can do at home.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think that obviously we have to feel comfortable that what we're putting out is safe, but I think, you know, people want to do something at home.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: They want to be active in, you know, in doing something that's beneficial for the themselves and their skin.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I think unfortunately, there's so much, you know, there's so many devices that are marketed to consumers that really don't work and really don't have good evidence behind them.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I think it's great that Droplet is not super expensive.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's high quality ingredients, it has real RB behind it.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I I really like it.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I get so many devices sent to me and I hear and I have so many people talking to me about their products, um, either like their skincare products or their devices.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, you know, the data is just never really that robust.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: No, I I agree with you.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is, and that's why I asked you was to kind of put our listeners, you know, mind at ease a little bit because this is so, so amazing.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's such a breakthrough.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, and at the end of the day, like I get so many emails.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: I was telling Masri about this, like I get so many emails from people that are like, well, where do I layer this?
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to buy like five different products that are regenerative medicine focused.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, you guys, you know, like it's about delivery, it's about, you know, are you getting it to where it needs to go?
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: And then is it gonna even act on yourselves?
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: Is it gonna put so yeah?
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think that's the fundamental.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it's incredibly important for all of our listeners out there to understand like the the impact this device has in this industry at this time in this format, you know.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: So that's it's huge.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's huge.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like, like for better or for worse, you know, the FDA doesn't monitor skin cares, you know.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like you can, there's all of these claims that or or that can only be regulated on sort of a post-market basis, not pre-market.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: So they you don't know, like something can say 20% vitamin C.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: But it could totally denature on the shelf in a day.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: Or if it doesn't, it could just sit on the surface of your skin and not penetrate at all.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's there's, you know, you can make so many claims in skincare that you don't have to back up.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, so I think consumers will rely on dermatologists, beauty editors, you, um scientists, you know, there's all of these other ways that you can sort of make sure something is legitimate, but it's a hard area for people to really know what's real.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: Now, in terms of post-procedure care, how do you feel that this fits into post-procedure care?
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think a lot of people are getting like, you know, obviously like the microneedling, that's what we've been hearing most about, is like microneedling, and then you do the exosome treatment.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: But then if you do get just normal microneedling, how do you feel that the droplet device fits into that kind of post-procedure recovery?
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think it'll be great.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm I'm just sort of like rolling it out now, but I think, you know, so far what I've seen is that, you know, it's it's immediately soothing.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: The exosomes, like any sort of um collagen stimulator or peptides, should help with healing post-laser and anti-inflammatory benefit post-laser.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it sort of allows us to kind of combine multiple treatments.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: So you could do like microneedling with radio frequency, and then you can do an the exosome treatment with droplets.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: So you're getting both the benefit of the radio frequency, the microneedling, and the exosomes in one treatment.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you so much, Dr.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: Balkin.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: This was very helpful.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, good to good to talk to you again, Ecta.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'll talk to you uh another time.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: Likewise.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I want to dive into the actual product though.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's so cool what people are getting.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, why did you decide to make the starter set with the exosome product with droplet, the actual device with the as a starter set?
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_02: Well, so okay, so we we launched the product.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we launched the serum treatment like in our capsules uh a while ago, like a couple, like you know, and and we we did it because we were very like we were very interested in in the science.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_02: We're like, I think people want this, let's see what happens.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_02: And then it became one of our most popular products.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, we've had like over 300,000 treatments and it's like our stickiest skew and people really love it.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: And we were like, we should make this like an introductory price, like an introductory product into our portfolio.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: So we made it, we basically made it a formal starter set.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that's something that we're really excited to be launching.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and we think that there are so many, I think people are so much more sophisticated about skincare and ingredients than they were pre-COVID, because everyone just got bachelor's in biology during that time period, essentially.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so and the types of questions we get from customers, um, they're they're so smart.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: And we've just wanted to be like, here's the product that you were clearly looking for.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um just get the set, you are good to go.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like you're gonna love it.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that you did that though.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's like it makes it a lot easier.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I agree, like I think, you know, because it's exciting to hear about these technologies, but then how do you use them?
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's a huge question.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, this is like kind of a one and done, and you know exactly what to do and like how to use it.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you mentioned the capsules.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, can you talk to us about what exactly are the capsules and walk us through like what's inside of them?
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, like why did you go to such great lengths to really keep them cold?
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: So, okay, so we take mass and chimel stem cell condition media.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_02: That's like the primary constituent of these.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: So, so just to briefly describe it, the way we set up our system is you buy the droplet delivery device, right?
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's a microinfuser.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: It works with all of our products.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: And then with this particular set, we also give you a month's supply of um of our exosome serum.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so they're packaged in these capsules, so they're single use.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_02: Think of it like a curiger and espresso.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: So you pop it in and turn it on.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_02: And um, the the beauty of it is it the whole the majority of it is kept in the freezer except for the one unit that you're using at that given time.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_02: So you are able to preserve stability.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_02: You're getting consistency of dose, so the same amount in your skin every time.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_02: And that's like the pharma background coming in because we care about dose consistency.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_02: And it is designed basically so that for daily use.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_02: So we recommend using it in the evening, although we certainly people who use it in the morning.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_02: We have people who use it twice a day.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's it's kind of up to you in a lot of ways.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, so that's that's kind of how the the system, how this the kit is set up.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_02: And then we we have it on subscription as well.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_02: So you can get it as a single purchase or you can buy it on subscription.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: So it's easy like it's easy to like kind of keep track of like when to use it, how frequently to use it.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's really, really important too, because I I know we get a lot of questions about these kind of um ingredients and like, well, when should I be integrating this into my routine, you know, and like where and like you know, what layer is it supposed to be in?
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really good to know.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: And how would you pair it with all of the other other options?
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: I would use this first.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_02: So use it on clean, um, on clean skin, like after you've, you know, washed your face.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_02: And it's the first product you use.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: And that would be true for other products as well.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, first thing that goes on your face, then you can do your regular routine if you wish on top of it, and it should not interfere in any way with that.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I'd say that's probably the most common way in which it's used.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, because with exosomes, like you want to get them on your skin first, right?
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm understanding that, like you want to let them do the signaling and do all the stuff they're supposed to do.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think it's a little bit of a flip from the convention that you put the smallest ingredient on first.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_02: But in this case, it's yeah, in this case, no, this is this is definitely the first thing you should be using.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's really yeah, that's really good to know.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so what if somebody is so if somebody is using, and this is, I think, my general um, I have a question in general about the droplet system is like if people are using like, you know, because everyone loves like milky toners these days, they love like layering other things like a mist or something.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: Can is it still safe to go in then with the droplet device and still do this?
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: Or do you want this to be like on completely bare skin?
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_02: You're going to get the most benefit um when it's on totally bare skin.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: We do have people who will do it on top of other products, and you should still like you'll still get penetration and benefits.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: But I think like the the optimal case is definitely on on clean, dry skin.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to actually talk a little bit more about like, you know, in terms of like the delivery, like, because I mean, clearly this is going a lot deeper, right, than just applying something topically.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: We've kind of established that now.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: But what do you want consumers to understand about like how deep we're getting the product and the actual ingredients and like what that means for like overall skin's ability to utilize the you know, the exosomes and actually start that signaling?
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think this is an analogy I've I've used a few times when we've been like actively fundraising for the business.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_02: But if you have a headache, you're not going to put an aspirin in your pocket, you're going to swallow it.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_02: And it's kind of the same thing here.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_02: Like if you have a skin problem you're trying to treat, you want it to actually achieve like hit those skin cells.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_02: Otherwise, you're not going to get that mechanistic improvement.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so if you think about the skin, you have the stratum corneum, which is like that outer layer, and you need things to get past that.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_02: And anything that gets past the stratum corneum is going to diffuse.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_02: So it's going to go into the epidermis and dermal layers, and you're going to get a biological function.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_02: But really, it's just getting past that stratum corneum barrier.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_02: That's kind of key.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, I think that's why I asked because people are always like, well, where do these act?
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like where do exosomes actually act?
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so that makes a lot of sense.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: Now I know we have a code for our listeners.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: So if they want to use the code, what is the code?
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: So the code is anarchy, as in skincare anarchy.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for the code.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I hope everyone listening, scroll down in the show notes and you'll see it right there as well.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: We will also be popping everything in our stories.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: So make sure you guys are checking that out.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: But Madwe, thank you so much.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: This was amazing learning from you.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having me.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I'm just I'm so excited that you're you're bringing this forward.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: And we need it, you know, as an industry, we need something like this.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: So very cool.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_02: No, we're excited too.