Latest / Coffee People Podcast / Luigi Di Ruocco and John Di Ruocco, Mr. Espresso - Bonus Episode

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Luigi Di Ruocco and John Di Ruocco, Mr. Espresso - Bonus Episode · Coffee People Podcast

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1:09
Hey everyone, welcome to the Coffee People Podcast.
1:12
I'm your host Ryan Waltz. The show is presented by Rostar
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Coffee Packaging found online at rostar.com.
1:20
The Coffee People podcast is part of our Roast West Coast
1:23
Coffee network. You can find out a lot more
1:25
about it on roastwestcoast.com. They'll be recaps, our Coffee
1:29
Smarter podcast, and so much more.
1:32
If you haven't poured yourself a cup of coffee, now is the time
1:35
to get started. Our guests today are John and
1:38
Luigi D Ruolco. I think I pronounced that close
1:42
from Mr. Espresso. From Mr. Espresso.
1:45
You can find them online at mrespresso.com and the
1:50
cafeoak.com. Both of those links will be in
1:52
our show notes. Welcome to the podcast, John and
1:56
Luigi. I appreciate that you're here.
1:58
Thank, thank you for having us. If you wouldn't mind, just kind
2:01
of saying, I appreciate you doing this and doubling down
2:05
here a little bit, but which one of you is John and which one of
2:08
you is Luigi for the audience? I'm Luigi.
2:12
I'm I'm the the youngest of the family.
2:15
And yeah, that's me. Yeah, yes, I'm John Deroko.
2:19
I'm part of the family here. Bye Guy.
2:24
I, I've been doing this for, since, since, since the
2:27
beginning, since my dad started the company around 1976, I've
2:32
been involved and now currently in charge of kind of vice
2:37
president of coffee, in charge of coffee procurement, quality
2:40
control and overseeing the production so.
2:45
Well, and you just mentioned since your father Carlos started
2:48
the company, it is a family business and still a family
2:51
business I believe, correct? Yes.
2:55
That always creates a lot of interesting dynamics, which I'm
2:59
hoping to to get into a little bit.
3:01
But since you you have a long history in it, even before you
3:05
were probably in the workforce, you know, do you have first
3:09
memories of this coffee experience that that you can go
3:12
back to and say, this is kind of the start for me?
3:16
Sure. Yeah, I mean to.
3:17
I mean, I've thought about this. I don't really have like a very
3:21
strong first memory of coffee. I guess.
3:23
I think probably my earliest memories were we used to live in
3:27
Italy for a little while and maybe, you know, and we lived
3:31
with my two aunts and maybe just my first time, I just bought
3:35
just my 2 ants just brewing coffee on the mocha pot on the
3:38
stove, you know, but you just, you know, that was just the way
3:41
he drank coffee in Italy was that's just the way he did it.
3:45
Maybe maybe one of the more David's memories is surely
3:48
thereafter we moved here and I met my dad trying to roast
3:51
coffee at home. And one of those little things
3:53
that you that you stir and on the stove top and just and just
3:59
like really smoking up the entire kitchen, the entire
4:02
house. Because he wasn't the first time
4:03
doing it. He wasn't expecting it to be
4:05
that smoky. And my mom said something like,
4:07
yeah, you never. You're not doing that again, you
4:08
know? Probably is some something that
4:13
I've been told that I was doing, but I don't remember myself, but
4:18
my father or our, our father, you know, used to bring some of
4:23
the early clients that he had to our house because he had the
4:29
espresso machines in the garage kind of set up.
4:33
And that's where it was a spruced workbench for testing
4:37
the machines and prep, you know, getting them ready for
4:39
installation. And so I, there was a restaurant
4:42
client that met me years later and my dad liked to tell this
4:47
story too, a lot. But he, he, you know, when they
4:50
were talking in the backyard, I think I, I, I ran over there was
4:54
a little kid and, and was tugging on my dad's shirt or
4:58
something like that. And he kept saying like, you
5:00
know, cappuccino machine, cappuccino machine.
5:03
And that was, you know, probably the earliest story I've heard
5:07
about me referencing coffee or anything like that.
5:10
And then, you know, I've seen that.
5:12
I saw that client when I started working here in 2001
5:18
professionally and the client even told me the machine the
5:21
same story about the machine and I can only imagine I was
5:26
probably pretty annoying, but yeah, that was.
5:30
I was also a little kid running around in my parents business
5:33
and annoying people. So I I can relate to that a
5:36
little bit. Could you tell you know our Mr.
5:40
Espresso has been around for 45 plus years, but not everyone
5:44
who's listening to the show is going to know what that is or
5:47
you know, what the company has done.
5:49
Could you give us a little background on on the company and
5:52
and where it started? Sure.
5:55
Yeah, I guess I'll, I'll take that one, I guess.
5:57
But my dad, my dad always had a little bit of an entrepreneurial
6:01
spirit. He, he kind of tried a couple
6:03
different things before he tried to do espresso machines in the
6:06
mid 70s. He was actually going to story's
6:11
kind of forgotten, but he was actually, he was an elevator.
6:13
He was actually the kind of his elevator contractor's license.
6:15
He was, he was thinking about starting his own elevator
6:17
company, but he, he had the opportunity to import some used
6:22
espresso machines from, from his hump, from somebody in Italy.
6:27
So he, he did that. He imported those machines and,
6:31
and because he had a technical background, he was able to, he
6:33
was able to repair those machines and fix them up and,
6:37
and he started selling them to the Italian community.
6:39
But mostly because I was really at that time espresso in the, in
6:43
the mid 70s was mostly the Italian community and a little
6:46
bit around college campuses like UC Berkeley and things like
6:49
that. So, and he saw that since those
6:51
sold, then he went to Italy and tried to buy new machines.
6:56
And the, the popular machine at the time was the gadget machine,
7:00
the lever machine. And, and those are, those are
7:03
quite popular. And, and he went to go see Gadja
7:07
and they turned them down. They, they refused to sell them
7:10
machines. So then he went to go see
7:12
another manufacturer, smaller manufacturer at that time called
7:14
Aurora. And, and I guess because they
7:17
were smaller, they, they, they decided to sell them machines.
7:19
And so we started selling machines, new machines at that
7:22
point. And and then later on, you know,
7:26
people would always ask him, you know, where can I get good
7:28
coffee? Where can I get good coffee?
7:30
And there are a couple of roasters, you know, here and
7:32
there he would recommend. He would recommend, but he was
7:35
never really happy with with the quality of the coffees that was
7:38
being roasted because it was, you know, at that time, espresso
7:42
was like synonymous with just a simple dark roast.
7:45
You just take something and you roast it very dark.
7:47
And that was espresso. So he thought there could be
7:49
more nuance and complexity to it.
7:51
So the way the coffee was served in his area, he used to be very
7:56
close to Naples. So he's, so I think it was the
7:59
early 80s. We, we're not quite sure the
8:01
exact year, I think it was like 82 ish that he decided to start
8:05
roasting coffee. So we moved out of the we moved
8:08
out of the garage and got a, we got a warehouse where we were
8:12
able to start roasting coffee. Yeah.
8:14
Luigi, you mentioned that you started working there
8:16
professionally in in 2001, you know, 25 years after kind of
8:21
the, the origin and, and give or take 20 years after the the
8:27
roasting begins. Was there ever for either of
8:31
you? But I think Luigi first, was
8:32
there ever a chance that you wouldn't go into this business?
8:36
Was there a different path at some point that you thought?
8:38
You know what, I'm kind of targeting you, Luigi.
8:41
I have a youngest, I'm the oldest and I have a youngest
8:44
brother. I went to work with my dad and
8:46
my youngest brother didn't, so I'm wondering if you had any
8:49
thoughts? At some point I'm going to go
8:51
find my own. Yeah, I never was planning on
8:53
working here. I was the, I'm the youngest by
8:58
10 years under John and then my, our, our sister is 13 years
9:02
older than I, I am. So I was like way, way after
9:06
them. And, you know, I, I was the
9:09
first one born here and generationally like what I, what
9:14
I, what I grew up around was, I don't want to say significantly
9:18
different, but it was distinctively different than I,
9:20
than the, I think what, what John and Laura, Laura's sister,
9:25
but what they grew up around, they were, they were, you know,
9:27
essentially, you know, the first generation of immigration, you
9:33
know, and then he came in with, you know, these very European
9:37
parents. And they also, you know, I think
9:41
that that the, they were just trying to make it in this, in
9:44
this new country, you know. And so by, by the time I was
9:48
born, you know, they were a little more well established.
9:52
And then, you know, I was American born going to school
9:58
and the people that I was around, I think were a little
10:03
probably a little different. And I was mainly concerned about
10:06
when I was younger, like why, why my friends had so much more
10:11
freedom than I did. And they could.
10:14
And I'm sure that Laura and John felt the same way, but even to a
10:17
higher degree when they got here.
10:19
But I mean, not that we were like locked down or anything
10:23
back then. It's just that, you know,
10:24
there's a different like, I guess, you know, a type of
10:29
principle we were raised on being that we were just coming
10:32
out of, you know, from parents who had recently immigrated from
10:35
Europe, you know, And so all my life, I always was more, more,
10:41
you know, concerned about like playing basketball or, or
10:45
hanging out with my friends. So the, and I didn't the, the
10:47
company wasn't really relying on me to help get it off the
10:52
ground. Whereas with Laura and John,
10:54
they, they were like able bodied at that time and able to help.
10:58
So they were like an integral part of the, you know, the extra
11:02
laborer laying around in those really good things like helping
11:06
when you get started. And that's so I didn't, I didn't
11:08
really have to work with the company until I was a teenager
11:11
in the summers. But by that, by that time I was
11:14
really not not interested in it at all.
11:18
You guys can make a little bit of extra money on the side in
11:21
the summers, but I, I, like I said, I'd rather it would have
11:24
been out running around or playing basketball with my
11:26
friends or whatever, you know, So my, my goal was to go and
11:32
work, work in like finance after graduating from college and
11:37
having, having a job in that, in that area.
11:39
But a couple of years into the corporate world experience, I, I
11:44
started to just feel disconnected from it and
11:48
realizing that I, I preferred to have more of a, a small
11:51
business, entrepreneurial family business type of dynamic in my
11:55
life. And so I have my own, I have my
11:59
own like recognition, like I just kind of finally realized
12:02
that there was this opportunity right in front of me that I
12:05
could just pursue that would that would sort of feel when I
12:08
felt like I was lacking in my my corporate experience, you know,
12:11
So that's how I ended up, you know, and I knew my dad was was
12:15
contemplating, you know, with what to do after, you know, he
12:20
never actually retired officially, but he was claiming
12:24
that he was going to start getting ready to retire at that
12:27
time too. So I think that yeah, that
12:29
helped lure me back a little bit too.
12:33
John, you might have been drafted into the business, but
12:36
how about you? Was there ever a motivation to
12:40
to branch off, or was it kind of from the beginning you were just
12:42
ingratiated into it? Yeah, I know from the time this
12:46
business started, which I was about 10 or so until later and
12:53
then I went to school that had a, at first I didn't know what I
12:55
was going to do. But then I, I, I my third year
12:58
of college, I had to declare a majors ended up getting into
13:01
architecture and I was on a five year.
13:03
I was, I'm going to be on a five year plan.
13:05
So I did that. I studied that for three years.
13:08
I got a bachelor's degree in architecture from UC Berkeley.
13:13
But the time I was about 10 up until maybe like and I graduated
13:17
in 1990s about to 8889. I was, I was pretty involved in
13:22
the company because like I said, it was just by necessity.
13:26
But then about 89.9 Reverend yeah, a couple years ago I
13:28
graduated my dad started to be a little bit more self-sustaining.
13:32
So I was I wasn't, I was a couple years I wasn't as
13:34
involved and I thought maybe I was going to go in the
13:36
architecture. I wasn't really sure.
13:38
I was kind of debating it and then I, I graduated in 1990.
13:45
That was the beginning of a recession.
13:47
And so especially that recession was construction was, was hit
13:52
pretty hard. So the first thing to go and
13:54
using the recession is architecture jobs.
13:56
So firms were laying fifty 6070% of their staff staff off There
14:02
weren't, there weren't any jobs. So I managed to get an
14:05
internship for a few months, about 6 or 8 months, and, but
14:09
that was also the period where my dad's business was growing
14:12
quite a bit. The the 90s was a big boom
14:14
period. So he was asking me to come and,
14:17
and join him in the company. He did help me get the
14:20
internship. So he, he, you know, he was
14:22
supportive of that, But then it got to it got to a certain point
14:25
where he really needed the help and he didn't, maybe he saw that
14:27
the career wise, but the architecture wasn't going
14:29
anywhere. He, he asked me to come back and
14:31
work for him. So I was a little uncertain, but
14:34
like I decided just to, to like I said, there's the, I didn't
14:38
like the firm where I was at. So I just decided to join my dad
14:42
around 9191 or 92 and been here ever since.
14:47
And then and then when I came back, he really needed a
14:49
technician. So I was, I was the first couple
14:52
years I was a technician out in the field.
14:54
You saw, I had a nap for coffee. I think at one point I, there's
14:58
a story, but I don't want to tell you the story because it
14:59
takes too much time. But at one point, but I was
15:02
telling him, hey, dad, because he was doing everything.
15:04
I was like, Dad, you can't run the company and be doing the
15:06
buying and the quality at the same time.
15:09
I wasn't petitioning for myself. I just thought he needed to kind
15:12
of like, you know, he needed to be a dedicated position.
15:15
So after a couple years, he decided to make that.
15:19
That would be my job is to do be the quality control supervisor
15:23
and then buy coffee. The one thing I wanted to
15:27
mention, would you mention the generational difference?
15:29
And one thing I know that's I don't know if it's ever been
15:30
mentioned, but I always felt my parents were like, you know,
15:33
like all of our peers, you know, their parents were baby, they're
15:36
baby boomers, you know, But my parents, like our parents, our
15:41
family coming from the old country, especially my dad was
15:44
from the South. My mom was a little bit more
15:46
traditional. I always felt they were more
15:48
part of the previous generation. You know, they're more like my
15:51
parents, my friends, grandparents, you know, you know
15:54
what, rather than like baby boomers, you know, said that
15:57
they never really fit that role with the baby boomers.
16:00
They were a little bit more traditional and old fashioned in
16:02
that way, so. Well, you've obviously the
16:06
business has stayed within the family and now you, the 2 of you
16:10
work together and your sister works with you guys.
16:13
How do you manage that family dynamic and keep, do you, can
16:16
you keep it separate work and family?
16:18
I mean, is there a dividing line or is it kind of all one big
16:23
melting pot? I like that you're both
16:28
wondering who's going to answer first.
16:31
I don't know. It definitely doesn't run like
16:34
a, a, a regular business, that's for sure.
16:38
And but it's not like we try also when we're at home or
16:44
outside of the workplace, not to just talk about work too.
16:49
So I mean, it kind of it does, it does kind of all melt
16:52
together to a certain extent. But when we're here, I think
17:00
that we recognize that there's a lot of, you know, quirks of
17:07
having a family business and with, with those quirks, there's
17:11
a lot of like positives and a lot of those things are, are
17:15
good things. So I think we've, we, we did
17:18
have gotten used to recognizing that it's just different running
17:24
a family business and, and accepting that that's OK and not
17:27
not having to, you know, in some cases you do want to measure
17:31
yourself against real world practices and, and things we
17:36
could be doing. But at the same time, it's also
17:39
sometimes refreshing or liberating not to have to worry
17:44
about that entirely or just do our own thing, you know, So and
17:48
that makes us, that makes us unique and, and also strong at
17:52
the same time. Yeah.
17:55
We also have kind of like a, our roles are very, very different.
17:58
So we kind of, we, we each have our own lanes and we kind of
18:02
operate within those lanes and we know, we know where the
18:04
limits are, we're crossing into another lane and so on.
18:07
So it works out that we just division of, you know, division
18:11
of responsibility. Sure it.
18:14
Kind it kind of. Helps prevent fist fights in the
18:18
boardroom, I would imagine. I have, I have two brothers, so
18:22
I, I can imagine the, the competitiveness to, to some
18:25
extent the, the name Mr. Espresso is a very catchy name.
18:30
I mean, there's, I think there's a reason why it's stuck so long.
18:34
You also recently opened a cafe. I'm wondering why take this new
18:41
step, you know, after so long in business the to add a brick and
18:45
mortar and how does that fit into the future of the company?
18:51
I'll let John you can tell the the first part of the story and
18:54
then I'll tell the second. Part yeah, the name yeah, I
18:58
guess the name was just you know, I think, you know, we
19:00
operated for a couple of years without a business license I
19:03
think you know so finally so I think we really we say our the
19:06
business started in 78, but I think it really started around
19:09
1976. And then when we finally had to
19:12
get a business license, my parents were trying to figure
19:13
out a name and so they were trying to figure out what the
19:16
name. And then I think at that time
19:18
Mr. Coffee was you know everyone had a Mr. Coffee.
19:20
It was ubiquitous with coffee. Paros was a Mr. Coffee, you
19:23
know, so it was just kind of, they kind of say, you know, I
19:26
think my dad or somebody just threw out the name Mr. Espresso.
19:29
And I was just like, why not? You know, there's a just, you
19:32
know, there's a Mr. Coffee, so why not, you know, Mr. Espresso?
19:35
So it's just kind of you're just kind of stuck there.
19:38
Yeah. Like I said, Mr. Coffee was just
19:40
huge back then. Then it was Mr. Coffee was a
19:44
coffee maker, was a Mr. Coffee. Yeah.
19:47
The the business itself grew out of a wholesale relationship with
19:54
with clients. You know, you sell them the
19:55
machines and then you start to sell them the coffee and and
20:00
then it becomes you know. A relationship based on product
20:04
and service and that that business when we were here in
20:09
Northern California, the the birth place of like, you know,
20:14
Farmer table California cuisine and a lot of the, you know, the
20:21
culinary capital of of or one of the culinary capitals of the
20:24
United States. So the restaurant scene here was
20:28
really, you know, exploding and we were naturally placing our
20:32
products into those many of those places and, and beyond
20:36
that. So our, our, our business was
20:38
growing and within the wholesale model, I think my parents were
20:41
looking for, for considering coffee shop locations in the 1st
20:47
10 years or 15 years of the business.
20:50
And I think there was A at one time an actual location that was
20:54
being looked at and it, it didn't work out.
20:56
And I think that might have, I think that might have like
21:00
giving them the impression that they shouldn't be doing it.
21:02
John can clarify for me. But, and then later on, I, I've
21:08
always gotten the impression that, you know, by the time I
21:11
arrived in 2001, my dad was, you know, at that .67 years old
21:17
already. And he had already weird the
21:19
business, the wholesale business was firmly established.
21:23
And it's kind of like, why do you want to open a cafe?
21:25
It's going to be a nothing but a yes, you know, and, but I was
21:29
really coming in like, well, we should have, we should have a
21:33
cafe. Let's do this.
21:34
And there I think John, being a bit wiser and more experienced,
21:40
also knew there would be challenges, I think getting
21:42
everyone on the same page with having a coffee shop during
21:46
those years too. And so I, I kind of my, my, my
21:50
personal story with a coffee shop is I ended up opening a, a
21:54
few shops in San Francisco with a separate partner and it was a
21:59
place called Coffee Bar. And we ended up having three
22:02
locations. And so from about 2007 to like
22:07
2000, you know, I'm still a part owner of the two locations that
22:12
are still open today. But but they were, I was
22:15
probably pretty involved in that for about, you know, eight or
22:18
nine years, you know, eventually the Mistress Espresso kept, you
22:25
know, requiring more and more of my time.
22:27
I was doing both essentially more, but more of my time was
22:31
always spent here. But eventually, you know, the
22:34
the need for a retail presence, you know, it's, it's hard to
22:38
escape that as a wholesale business.
22:41
And so, you know, around 2019, the city of Oakland was really
22:47
booming. A lot of exciting things were
22:48
happening here. You know, the Bay Bay Area
22:52
economy was really booming in general, but Oakland was the
22:54
beneficiary of that. And we, we saw a location in, in
22:58
downtown Oakland where, you know, me and John went and
23:01
looked at it and we were like, this is probably the best
23:03
location in all of Oakland. And at the time it was, it was.
23:08
So we signed the lease, but then the lease didn't get signed
23:11
until January of 2020. Of course, you know, the one,
23:16
the, you know, Mr. Espresso finally opens up his own,
23:19
finally signs a lease to open up its own coffee shop.
23:23
And then the, the worldly event that no one ever thought was
23:26
going to happen happened. And, you know, so we had to wait
23:30
for a while. And then in May of 2023, we
23:34
finally opened after a lot of, you know, hesitation dragging.
23:40
But yeah, so now, now we have it's almost two years we've been
23:43
open now. And so we you know that's our
23:46
our first official company retail and basically.
23:50
What, what makes that space, you know, a value add to the
23:54
business? You know, what do people, when
23:56
the people walk in, they go, oh, it's Mr. Espresso, Mr. Espresso?
24:00
Or is it? Does it have its own feel, its
24:02
own design, its own vibe that you think makes it part of that
24:06
essential Oakland experience? Well, we always start from a
24:10
place of, you know, our heritage, which, and our mom is
24:15
French, but our dad's Italian. And then the company, the
24:17
company itself has always, you know, been more Italian forward
24:21
being that, you know, we're, we're the style of coffee and
24:25
like espresso and etcetera. So the, the, the coffee culture
24:30
side is it is primarily Italian. And so for us, we always think
24:34
about how can we do this with an Italian forward or Italian angle
24:40
to help, you know, resonate with our story.
24:43
And so that we, you know, we call it an Italian inspired
24:46
coffee bar. But you, you do have to, you
24:49
start from the premise of how can we make this place Italian,
24:52
as Italian as possible, while being fully aware that in Italy
24:56
people just drink espresso and, you know, and that A, at a
24:59
business here can, cannot survive by only, you know,
25:03
serving single shots of espresso all day long.
25:06
People who in a, in a coffee culture like the United States,
25:10
where that's not the, the main method of consuming coffee.
25:13
So we, you know, we designed that place with a big long 17
25:17
foot bar. We encourage customers to walk
25:19
up to the barn or like they're at a bar.
25:22
But we do have conventional coffee drinks and some special
25:27
you'd find in a contemporary cafe.
25:29
So it's kind of a blend of like an Italian inspired cafe, but
25:33
also a contemporary or modern coffee shop that you'd find in
25:37
the United States too. And we, even though we're an
25:39
Italian company per SE, it's at the core foundation of
25:44
everything that we do. We're, we're also a Northern
25:47
California company too. So, you know, our, our entire
25:50
existence has been here in the Bay Area and we've been, we've
25:54
been influenced by the culinary scene here.
25:58
So we're, we're a combination of our Italian heritage and the,
26:02
the Bay Area culinary scene that we've been, you know, that we've
26:05
grown up in. And so it's it's hard for that
26:08
not to influence us as well when we're doing something.
26:12
John, as the person who is responsible for quality and, and
26:17
buying coffee, you've seen a lot of changes, especially over the
26:21
last, say, 1012 years. And specialty is really
26:25
exploded. I mean, I mean, there's always
26:26
changes, but in particular this demand for different flavor
26:31
profiles has, has grown. How do you keep Italian style,
26:35
traditional roast styles relevant?
26:38
I mean, in in your business? I mean, it's not as in the
26:43
specialty market. I don't want to say it's not as
26:45
as isn't seen as much anymore, but I feel like that marketplace
26:50
has gotten a lot bigger. There's a lot more people
26:53
looking for different things or kind of like craft beer used to
26:57
wanting to try the new thing over and over and over again.
26:59
It's always got to be the new thing.
27:01
How do you keep that flavor profile in the forefront of your
27:04
customers minds and in in quality wise what you do?
27:09
Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a little tricky, I guess.
27:13
You know, we try and you know, we look, we look at what's going
27:15
on and we try to determine for us what, what makes the most
27:19
sense. You know what the this this
27:21
week, you know, this kind of trend is, is interesting.
27:24
And we, we incorporate this into what we do and other things for
27:27
like, well, this doesn't really fit, fit our role and we kind of
27:30
be trying to ignore or this might be a temporary thing.
27:32
We kind of pick and choose how we want to go about things.
27:35
But I think it, I think, but I think also the specialty is, is,
27:39
you know, is, is, is, is a big category.
27:42
You know, it's not just the most progressive and most, most
27:46
cutting edge things. I mean, I guess right now, and
27:48
that's what I'm seeing in the last few years is a lot of these
27:52
anaerobics and emphasis on processing and, and these some
27:56
of these fermented flavours that don't, don't really taste,
28:00
tastes even less like coffee than we had with, you know, with
28:03
when we had the 3rd wave, you know, boom happening.
28:06
So, so we kind of pick and choose some of the incorporate
28:11
some of the trends that we don't incorporate some of the others.
28:13
But I think at the same time, there's people who like good
28:16
coffee, people who want, you know, who are aware of quality
28:20
and want a high quality cup of coffee, but they don't want, you
28:23
know, a fruit punch with their coffee.
28:25
You know, they want more accessible flavors.
28:28
They want chocolate and caramels and sweetness and balance and
28:31
and richness, you know, so we a big, a lot of our coffees are
28:36
most of our coffees are really in that direction and we still
28:38
buy great quality coffees. We pay attention to how we roast
28:41
them. We brew them properly and
28:42
everything like that. But it's not, you know, and I
28:45
think that's still special to you.
28:47
You know, that still is definitely special to you, but
28:50
it's a big part of what we do. We do do some of the single
28:52
origins and the lighter roast and all that we, we put, I know
28:55
we still put our with those. We, we try and make them as
28:59
balanced and as as you know, try to tone down a little bit some
29:03
of the more aggressive citrusy notes and things like that.
29:06
But we do have beautiful, lovely light roasted coffees.
29:11
So we, you know, we have, we have that as well.
29:13
So. I was reading that at one point
29:16
you were using a wood fired roasting technique.
29:19
Is that something you guys still do even on any scale?
29:22
And how does that impact a roast differently from a more, what
29:27
would now be the more common either propane or even as we're
29:30
moving into it, electric roasting?
29:32
Yeah, yeah. Now we, we still do.
29:35
All of our coffee is roasted with wood.
29:37
We're we're still doing that. It's more of a traditional
29:42
technique. It used to be more commonplace
29:43
in Italy maybe like 100 years ago or something like that.
29:46
But it's, it's definitely much less common now, but it's the so
29:53
and the difference with using wood is, is really the way we
29:57
see it is, is the, the moisture content of the wood.
30:00
So when you roast with coffee, with natural gas, with propane,
30:05
electric, you have a very dry heat source, you know, so like
30:10
the, the gas company will dry the natural gas before they send
30:12
it through the, through the pipes.
30:14
So there's otherwise it'll corrode the pipes.
30:15
So whereas with wood there's naturally about 12 to like 15%
30:21
moisture in the wood. So and that moisture gets driven
30:25
off usually in like in the early part of the roast.
30:27
So it's it's, it's a more humid heat source.
30:32
You know, we're using very high temperatures for roasting
30:34
coffee, so it's not like we're not smoking coffee and we're not
30:40
flavouring coffee. The heat that's that's being
30:42
generated by the wood fire. And if with the fire in that
30:45
fire box is over, you know, about 1000° or over 1000°.
30:48
So it's a very clean source of heat.
30:51
There's really no smoke coming off of that wood.
30:56
It's just a, it's a clear, you know, it's a clear clear, you
30:59
know, it's, it's yeah. There's no smoke or flavour.
31:03
Sure. Well, that's good to know.
31:04
I wouldn't have known. I wouldn't have known that or
31:07
and I think that if I said to someone, hey, this is a wood
31:09
fired coffee, they might assume that there was some sort of
31:12
impact, you know that there isn't.
31:15
I got to think that there's some permitting as far as like
31:20
managing that smoke issues at least.
31:22
Maybe not so much in the early days, but certainly now.
31:26
Yeah, we have, you know, we have to, we have, we're required, you
31:28
know, I think it's above a certain, you know, 15K roaster
31:31
you're required to have an afterburner.
31:32
So we have an afterburner same as any other gas roaster would
31:36
have of that size. So, but other than that there
31:40
yeah, there's no other requirement for the, for the
31:42
wood roaster. We, we are, we are registered
31:45
with the Bay Area Air Quality Control Board.
31:47
So they, we, we have, we get a permit.
31:49
I mean, we get, we renew our permit every year with them and
31:52
it hasn't really been much much of an issue to be honest with
31:54
you. You would think, yeah, you would
31:56
think that, you know, here, but. Starting a fire in California to
32:00
me is always nerve wracking. You know, I, I camp a lot and
32:03
even then I get real. I'm very aware of what I'm
32:06
doing. You know, this shows is
32:08
sponsored by Rostar Coffee Packaging and they've asked me
32:12
to help compile advice for burgeoning entrepreneurs in that
32:15
coffee space. You know, lots of small
32:18
businesses begin as family businesses.
32:22
Not as many grow and survive as family businesses over the long
32:27
haul. So I'm wondering, you know, if a
32:30
family of burgeoning entrepreneurs came to you or and
32:33
said, hey, we want to start a business together, you know,
32:36
what advice would you offer them?
32:37
What would you say, hey, maybe watch out for this because it's
32:40
a little bit different. I.
32:45
Guess I'd be curious about you know who, who's in the, how many
32:48
people are in the family, how old they are and all that stuff,
32:52
You know, particular background skill sets.
32:55
But I mean, really, you know, you got to have some.
32:57
I definitely you'd, you'd want to see the parents, I think
33:01
probably take the lead, but also obviously because they're older
33:05
and have more experience and resources.
33:07
But at the same time, and you'd love to see how, you know, the
33:10
children, what their strengths and skill sets are and how they,
33:14
I mean, essentially what you want me to do is basically
33:16
divide and conquer or you don't want, you don't want everyone
33:18
trying to do the same thing, you know.
33:20
So ideally the family would have its members be able to focus on
33:25
different areas of the business and then the parents could be
33:28
the leaders of the business, you know, so just thinking in terms
33:32
of like natural hierarchy there. I mean, it doesn't mean that
33:35
there's what what if the family is a bit older and the, you
33:39
know, the parents are in their 50s or 60s and then they have a
33:44
child in well into their 30s. Maybe the child well under their
33:47
30s could be a great leader and take over the business himself,
33:50
but or herself. But I'm just thinking about, you
33:52
know, the most more common, the more common interactions you
33:56
might have with someone like like a family getting into the
33:58
business together and just be mainly, you know, curious about
34:01
how they would, you know, separate the responsibilities
34:05
and, and delegate them out between between themselves.
34:08
And you know, that's for the most part.
34:13
Also, yeah, I mean, we were fortunate in the sense that we,
34:17
we, we, we, we grew up with this, you know, so we, it became
34:21
natural for us kind of, you know, the dynamics of
34:25
interacting with each other kind of became a natural thing.
34:27
But I think for in addition to other which you said, I think
34:30
also you have to realize that, you know, if you think in one
34:36
way it's your own business because it's a family business,
34:39
but but you also have to realize that there's going to be give
34:41
and take and you're not always going to get what you want, even
34:43
though it's it's, you know, you're kind of an owner of the
34:46
business. You have to, there's going to be
34:47
times where you're going to have to just, you know, not, not get
34:50
your way, But you know, sometimes that works.
34:53
And to be honest with you, sometimes it works out that
34:55
maybe, hey, maybe you weren't right.
34:56
Maybe maybe everyone in your family disagree with you because
34:59
they they saw something that you didn't, you know, so there's
35:02
others you have, you have to be willing to accept, to give and
35:04
take. Just because you're an owner, it
35:05
doesn't mean you're going to get everything.
35:06
Everything you always want, you know so.
35:10
Especially now it's with the size of, I mean, the size of the
35:13
family, How, how are you going to generate enough revenue in
35:16
the beginning to pay everyone? I have, I have a lot of
35:19
questions, basically, you know, yeah.
35:24
I don't think that people are expecting to get paid anymore
35:28
when they start out for a while. That could be me just in my own
35:32
experience, but I think there's a lot of people that especially
35:35
people that listen to this show who are starting something, you
35:39
know, while still working because there's it's just harder
35:42
to get that thing going. You mentioned hierarchy.
35:47
You know, the the patriarch, patriarch of your family, your
35:50
dad Carlo passed away recently. I'm wondering if you could just
35:55
briefly, not even briefly, I'm just wondering if you could say
36:00
what he means to the business. And now that you know how you
36:03
guys have obviously been there a long time and are established,
36:06
but not having his presence day-to-day, how has that changed
36:09
things for you? Well, he, he did a really good
36:14
job of, you know, creating a business where when the time
36:19
would come that he would eventually pass, that there's
36:23
plenty of him still around to to, you know, keep keep his
36:29
memory alive and, and create a, an everlasting legacy.
36:33
So, you know, he hadn't been working here a lot for the past
36:36
three or four years. And so we, we more or less been,
36:40
you know, running the business. But at the same time, he just,
36:44
he did such a so much in his, in his time when he was working
36:49
here consistently and, you know, fully committed to the business
36:54
or he, yeah, he, he just created such a such an everlasting
36:57
legacy and and he, you know, established himself as a almost
37:03
a mythical like figure figure in the industry, you know, So yeah,
37:08
there's a lot, there's a lot for us to go off of and remember him
37:11
by every day. So, you know, his memory
37:14
definitely lives on through US. Yeah, yeah.
37:17
I mean, as far as the transition goes, you know, it's my dad had
37:22
been, you know, even before COVID, he had been, you know,
37:25
throughout the years he was we, we, we've gradually been taking
37:29
over more and more responsibility of the company
37:31
and he was gradually stepping back and then with COVID, just
37:34
kind of forced to retire. So we kind of like, he wasn't
37:36
really involved hardly at all. Since COVID, it's kind of been a
37:39
very gradual and like smooth transition, you know, but you
37:44
know, his presence is still definitely missed.
37:47
You know, he was, you know, he really was a, you know,
37:53
important figure to this company.
37:55
And, and from, like I said, from really from a different era, you
37:58
know, he just was somebody who who worked hard all his life.
38:01
You know, he, he was, you know, he was 90 when he passed.
38:04
So he was coming in every day, you know, before COVID, he was
38:06
85. So he was coming in every day,
38:08
you know, working. So if you a very strong
38:11
personality, very strong presence, very strong work
38:14
ethic. So, you know, he's definitely
38:19
and we have, you know, we have a lot of people here that have
38:21
been working here for we have, you know, people working here
38:25
for for almost 40 years. You know, so I think I did why
38:28
did the math a few years ago. I think the average time
38:34
someone's been working here like as of a few years ago was like
38:37
was like 14 years or something like that.
38:40
So there's a lot of people, you know, here also were, you know,
38:47
knew them very well. So again, we're able to set the
38:51
tone for the company, I guess was just sure.
38:55
You know, it's a a lesson that I've learned in my life and but
38:59
when you are running your own business, you're running a
39:02
family business together. You have your family life and
39:06
your personal life and your work life, but you don't get to step
39:11
away from one of those. You know, when something
39:14
happens, there's always going to be I have to step into work mode
39:18
or I'm stepping into family mode.
39:20
And, and it's a testament that you're, you're, you know,
39:23
working through that right now and, and figuring out the next
39:26
step, which brings me to that kind of question.
39:29
What is the future for Mr. Espresso?
39:33
Well, if we were a regular company, we'd have like a five
39:37
year play, whatever, you know, to be honest, we just take it
39:41
day by day. You know, we're, we don't, it's
39:45
a family run business, you know that we, we own and operate the
39:49
company. And like I said earlier in the
39:51
call, we can, we can kind of, we don't have to feel the the same
39:55
pressures that other companies do.
39:56
And we're not, we're not in startup mode or anything like
39:58
that. And we're not, we like to grow,
40:01
but we're not, it's not what we come to work every day thinking
40:04
about, you know, and you know, and to be honest with you,
40:08
because we're owner operated, we we're all pretty busy doing our
40:12
jobs too. So I think we're just really
40:15
focused on. Continuing to do what we do,
40:18
roast, crate coffee, provide great service and, and try and
40:22
always do a better job of letting people know about that.
40:26
And hopefully in the, in the, in the grand scheme of things,
40:29
people will be attracted to that organically.
40:30
And, and, and then I mean, with all the new roasters and, and
40:35
competition in the industry, it's, it's been pretty easy for
40:41
us to kind of main maintain what we've had, but it's also been
40:44
challenging to grow too. So we're not, we're, we're not
40:47
the kind of company that's going to go out there and seek private
40:51
equity or, you know, that kind of thing and say, Hey, let's go.
40:54
Let's, let's, let's, you know, let's become a huge company now.
40:57
And now we're, I think we're going to continue to manage the
41:00
business ourselves and it'll, it'll go slow and we're not
41:03
going to make any drastic changes.
41:05
And, and so I think for the time being, we're going to keep doing
41:08
what we're doing. If you guys are out in the Bay
41:14
Area and you stop in at a cafe that carries your coffee, what
41:18
are you going to order? I'm usually, I'm usually like a
41:21
drip, drip coffee guys. Just get like a cup of black
41:23
coffee as you see what I like to occasionally maybe a cappuccino
41:27
or something like that or a latte.
41:28
But mostly it's just a drip coffee guy.
41:31
Yeah, my first choice will be either either an espresso or or
41:34
a cup of drip just to kind of see how they're doing with their
41:38
coffee as far as preparing it. And, you know, I'll also go for
41:44
something that's like a house specialty or something that's
41:47
unique to their place, you know, signature beverages.
41:53
Because, you know, a lot of times those can be interesting
41:55
if if that's something that, you know, the business itself, you
41:59
know, went out of its way to develop it.
42:00
And so I'm always curious about that as well.
42:04
I was hoping to hear that you run in and out of the espresso
42:07
bar four to five times a day for a quick shot as you as you make
42:12
your way through the business. Here at work, here, here at Mr.
42:17
Espresso, we have a, we have an espresso bar in our showroom.
42:20
And so I mean, I think most of us drink espresso, shots of
42:26
espresso throughout the day by far.
42:31
And of all the coffee that I drink in my life, I'm sure at
42:33
least like at least 6070% of those cups of coffee are like a
42:39
just a single shot of espresso. That that percentage might vary
42:44
for different bulks here, but it's definitely, I'm sure the
42:48
majority of what we all drink. You know, John and Luigi, I
42:52
appreciate your time. I appreciate you guys coming on
42:55
the show and, and sharing a little bit about, you know, how
43:00
your, your family started this business and, and where you're
43:02
at now. Did I miss anything?
43:04
Was there something I should have asked that I didn't, that
43:07
you want people to know about Mr. Espresso We.
43:10
Didn't we didn't talk too much about like what Italian espresso
43:14
is represents? More I've gotten a chance to
43:17
spend some time in Italy and and drink coffee around the country
43:21
and and also been to places here that claim to be Italian.
43:25
You know, what do you see as the differences between Italian
43:28
style coffees or you know what we're what people are more used
43:32
to maybe here in the United States, I.
43:35
Can probably answer the question from the point of consumer and
43:38
maybe John can talk about it from the coffee side of things.
43:40
But like I know in Italy, you know, when you go into a coffee
43:44
bar about, about, I don't know the exact percentage, but the
43:49
large majority of, of orders and a coffee in a bar there are for,
43:55
for single shots of espresso and you will, you will see some milk
44:00
used. It's primarily, you know, for
44:04
either a macchiato or a cappuccino.
44:08
Cappuccino is something that someone might drink in the
44:10
morning to go along with their breakfast, like a pastry for
44:12
breakfast. And I've noticed people drink
44:15
macchiato once in a while if they want another, another way
44:19
of cutting the the flavour of the espresso.
44:21
But by and large, everyone is drinking espresso.
44:25
So when you're, when you're consuming something with such
44:28
regularity, I think you're, you're kind of expecting
44:32
something more predictable and satisfying.
44:33
And you're not, you're not walking into the experience
44:36
looking to be amazed or shocked, or you're not looking to be.
44:42
I don't think you're, you're activating the same part of your
44:44
brain as you would be if you were drinking a, a beautiful
44:49
single origin coffee that was roasted really, really light.
44:52
You know, you're not you're, you're definitely just seeking
44:55
more of like a more visceral satisfaction from your coffee.
45:00
And so I think that definitely drives the flavor profile of a
45:05
coffee and so on. So John might be able to talk
45:10
more about the the coffee, what goes into a coffee like that.
45:13
But yeah, I mean, that's really a difference.
45:16
Whereas in here in the United States or other coffee cultures,
45:19
it's much wider spectrum. None.
46:14
Hey there, everyone. Thank you for coming back for
46:16
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46:20
Thank you to our guest for sharing their time, their story,
46:22
and for dropping some knowledge on all of us.
46:25
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46:29
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written, produced, researched and recorded by me.
47:54
Ryan, Walt, wherever you find yourself today, I hope it's with
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a fine cup of coffee. Thank you for listening to us
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share the stories of Coffee People.
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Cheers everyone.