Latest / Space Nuts: Astronomy Insights & Cosmic Discoveries / #452: Early Universe Mysteries, Galactic Demise & Dark Matter Interactions

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#452: Early Universe Mysteries, Galactic Demise & Dark Matter Interactions · Space Nuts: Astronomy Insights & Cosmic Discoveries

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hello once again. This is Space Nuts. It's a Q
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: and A edition. You know what that means. We ask
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: nothing and you do the rest. All we ask of
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: you is to send us questions, and you do do that,
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: and we try to answer them, including a question from
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Bob about the older universe, which Fred remembers. Sean has
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: a question about galaxies and their demise, James is talking
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: about the origin of life on Earth, and Michael does
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: dark matter interact with itself? Those are the questions that
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: we'll be tackling today on a Q and A edition
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: of Space Nuts fifteen in Channel ten nine ignition sequence
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: Space Nuts NI.
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: Or three two more review once Space Nuts as the
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: Night Report.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: It Bill's good, he's back again for more. His name
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: is Professor Fred. What's an hello? Fred? Hello?
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: And his name is Professor Andrew Dunkley.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: I don't think I'll ever get that kind of title.
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: Sir Andrew Dunkley. How's that?
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: What Jordy like that?
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: Now he's barking mad about the idea. That's what's.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: Barking. Mutual stuff They can tell you, yeah.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: Oh yes, well you know it's a terrier, isn't he.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: All terrors are barking mad.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: Well, yes, no, no, he's barking, but he's a poodle.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: A poodle. Oh yeah, well there they are a similar ilk. Yes,
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: I think all those kinds of dogs suffer from small
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: dog syndrome. That's what. It's just angry because they're tiny. Yes,
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: that's just a theory, not a dog person. So I
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: don't know. So we try to answer some questions.
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: Right, I thought we're just gonna have a chat.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: But well we can do that. We can about dogs,
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: about dogs and dogs and cats living together, or we
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: can answer this question from Bob.
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: Gentlemen, I'm Bob from Central Florida and the United States.
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: It occurs to me that as we look back at
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: the older and older parts of the universe, it seems
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: that the galaxies that far away should be farther back
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: in time but closer together.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: Does that make sense from our.
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: Perspective, This is the surface of a sphere far away,
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: and we're at the center of it. And yet back
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: then the universe hadn't been expanding as long. Thank you
• 2:32
  Speaker 3: very much, Thank you, Bob. Sounds like it was at
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: the mall. I could hear music in the background.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: I'm not I've listened to the question a few times.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: I'm just I'm not quite sure where he's coming from,
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: and maybe it's just me, But what's the question about Fred? Well, no,
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: no offense, Bob. I'm not having a crack at you
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: of it.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: No, Bob, Bob's right. So what Bub's saying is, Okay,
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: we live in a universe thirty point eight billion years old.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: It's been expanding for the whole of that time, and
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: now we have the capability with the James Web telescope
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: and other things coming on stream before too long to
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: see back probably thirteen billion of those years. You know,
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: we can see very early galaxies. And so Bob's comment is, Okay,
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: the universe is expanded by a large fraction by over
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: that time, you know, factors like twenty something like that,
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: twelve to twenty thereabouts. Shouldn't the galaxies look closer together?
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: And they do. They do, but it's a little bit
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: more subtle because the way we know there they look
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: closer together. Wait till you get this one. Oh boy,
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: if you thought Bob's comment was strange, gets even stranger.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: The galaxies actually look bigger with the expanding universe. You
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: look further back in time and eventually, I mean, galaxies
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: start to look smaller, as smaller as you look out
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: in the distance. Do you expect that that's the way
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: everything works in normal space? But the universe isn't normal space.
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: It's been expanding and it's got curious properties, and you
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: get to a certain point, which I don't think we've
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: actually reached yet. I'm not sure that this is something
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: that's been proven. But the theory says that the galaxies
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: should look bigger, and that's because they're closer together. So
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: what it is is the space between them is smaller,
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: and that means the galaxies look and it sounds completely cockeyed,
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: but that is what the relativistic model of the universe telligence.
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: So what's the enter? The answer is Bob's right, all right, Okay, Well,
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: Dan bollm I.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: Was in Florida not that long ago, and it was great.
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: I love Florida.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: We'll be there next year.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: As a matter of fact, lucky you.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: I think we go in March. Yes, although I'm a
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: little bit confused because we've got we're going to Miami
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: via Vancouver.
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, figure Funnily enough, that's what we did.
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: That's that's the long haul.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: Yes, but we had a fortnight in between them. A.
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: Right, We've done Vancouver, so we're just going to jump
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: off one plane and jump onto the other.
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: Lovely city.
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: It is beautiful. The Vancouver Marathon was on while we
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: were there.
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, so I got to how to go. I
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: got to.
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: Watch because it was just behind our hotel. It was
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: lovely and went through the park and had to look around.
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: It's beautiful city.
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: Beautiful. Thank you Bob for your question. Our next question
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: comes from Sean speaking of Canadia. He's from British Columbia.
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: All question, All, are all galaxies eventually going to get
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: sacked into their central super massive black holes? If so,
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: then what or then what could the inflection?
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: Right? I think then what is correct?
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: Then?
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: What as in now? What? Yeah? No, probably not because
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: black holes they do suck stuff in, but only if
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: it happens to be kind of lying around. Yeah, and
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: so a black hole compared with the size of a
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: galaxy is very very small. So I think what will
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: happen in the longer term is galaxies will lose all
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: the hydrogen fuel because that will go into making stars.
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: Stars will live their lives, they'll create heavy elements. They'll
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: blow up and either create black holes or white dwarfs
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: or neutron stars or one of the ends products of
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: stellar evolution, and eventually they'll just become dark. They'll run
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: out of energy, they'll become cold and dark, but not
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: necessarily getting sucked into the super massive black hole. They
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: may well just orbit around it and continue doing that
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: until the big rip occurs or whatever is going to
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: happen to space time with the expanding universe.
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: Or they can GiB.
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: They can have GiB. That's right, Okay, well that's it,
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: is it?
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah?
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: I mean, we see galaxies which have been which are
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: devoid of their hydrogen fuel. We call them elliptical galaxies
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: because they're quite different from the spiral galaxies. They're blobs
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: of stars shaped like a football, elongated quite often, and
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: they they don't have any star formation going on in them,
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: not much gas to speak of, probably a super massive
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: black hole at the middle, but not doing much in
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: terms of eating stuff up because it's all it's eating
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: it all up what's available, and its surrounded by a
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: retinue of stars that it can't touch because they're too
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: far away.
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: Okay, very good, thank you, Sean. This is Space Nuts
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: Andrew Dunkley here with Professor Fred Watson. Let's take a
• 8:14
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• 10:12
  Speaker 1: slash space nuts. Now back to the show three Space
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: Nuts and you're listening to a Q and A edition.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: And yes, we love it when you send us your questions,
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: so you can do that via our website to give
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: you all the details at the end of the program.
• 10:34
  Speaker 4: Our next question Fred comes from James. Gooday, gentlemen, this
• 10:38
  Speaker 4: is James from the Mountains of Me. I have enjoyed
• 10:42
  Speaker 4: your podcast since your first episode. Please keep doing what
• 10:46
  Speaker 4: you do.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: Here is my question.
• 10:48
  Speaker 5: I have been reading recently that there is now tantalizing
• 10:51
  Speaker 5: evidence that life may have begun on Earth as far
• 10:55
  Speaker 5: back as four point one billion years ago. I believe
• 10:59
  Speaker 5: this overlad with the heavy bombardment period of our Earth's history.
• 11:04
  Speaker 5: If this is truly the key, and we find my
• 11:08
  Speaker 5: croby or life elsewhere in our solar system, is it
• 11:11
  Speaker 5: possible or perhaps even likely, that it originally came from Earth?
• 11:17
  Speaker 5: Thanks again for keeping them nerd and me alive.
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: Our great pleasure, James, and thanks for the question the
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: origin of life on Earth. There are those that say
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: it probably came in from all sorts of different sources
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: and got mixed up in Moila. There we are. Yeah,
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: it's a tough one to answer, because, yeah, we've got
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: evidence of life on Earth, but how on Earth did
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: it actually originate? It needed the right formula, it needed
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: the right environment, it needed the right substances to mix with. Yeah.
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: Could it have already been here getting ready to flourish
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: during the early bombardment? Good question. Yeah.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: So, I mean, you know James's postulate that maybe life
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: was in existence on the Earth as early as four
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: point one billion years I think that the evidence is
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: still fairly tenuous on that, but certainly three point eight
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: billion years there are rocks that show evidence that there
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: was life there, so it is very old.
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: Now.
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: The idea of life coming to Earth from elsewhere is
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: called the panspermia theory, and that is one that is
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: not generally favored by astrobiologists. I think most astrologists think
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: a little bit as James has suggested, that life formed
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: on the Earth itself because we had the right conditions
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: and the right prebiotic chemicals, all those organics that we've
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: already found out in space, the fats and lipids that
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: you need to hold cell walls together, and all of
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: that sort of thing. So maybe life did kick off
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: on Earth if we find it elsewhere, like for example,
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: Perseverance on some of those little capsules that it's got
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: left on the planet's surface on Mars. If bringing some
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: of those back found that yes, there is life, living
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: organisms in there, or even fossilized ones. If we could
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: somehow sequence the DNA of those and found that it
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: had factors in common with life on Earth, then you
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: could be pretty sure that that's what's happened. That the
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: late heavy bombardment has stirred things up enough that you've
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: got life spreading throughout the Solar system. And we're not
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: at a stage in the history of our exploration of
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: the Solar system that we can yet say that we've
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: still got a long waist. But it is possible that
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: that might turn out to be the case. So it's
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: not impossible, James, it's a good suggestion.
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I just want to follow up on his suggestion
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: that life could have been in existence four point one
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: billion years ago, and you're saying, well, no, probably not
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: that far back, but three point eight three point seven
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: It doesn't sound like that's a big gap, but I
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: suppose it realistically is in terms of the development.
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: Of life three hundred million years Yeah, well it's not. No,
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: you're right, because life didn't do much until only it
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: still doesn't well, you know, in terms of evolution.
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: Oh right, it.
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: Didn't do much until about seven hundred million years ago
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: when we started getting all these multi celled organisms. So
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: you've got this huge gap, you know, more than three
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: billion years where all you had was single cell slime,
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: probably just slime. And so if yes, three point eight
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: billion year old slime and four point one billion year
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: old slime might not be very different, if I can
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: put it that way. So, but you know, James's point
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: is correct that that's the period when the late heavy
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: bombardment was in full swing. Things were charging about all
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: over the Solar System. We think it's when the most
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: of the big maria on the Moon were created, and
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: the eight in South Pole Basin the biggest of all
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: impact craters that we know about in the Solar System.
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: So it was a wild and wooly place. And it
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: may well be that debris spread into space carrying microbes,
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: may have evolved into other things on Mars or even Venus.
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: You know, Venus may well have had a very different
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: climate back then.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: Hmm. Yeah. While we've spoken in the past about the
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: fact that scientifically they've suggested that at one stage there
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: were three livable planets in the Solar System, yes, Venus,
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: Earth and Mars. So yeah, that's the possibility. And as
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: you say, the interesting thing will be if if perseverance
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: finds evidence of past life on Mars, or we find
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: evidence of life somewhere else in the Solar System, maybe
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: beneath the surface of the some of the ice moons,
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: and we can do a DNA test and find out
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: who it's related to that's and the big revelation will
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: be yes, it's the same as life on Earth it's
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: come from the same source, or that it's completely different.
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: That's the big question.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: And if it's completely different, you could probably assume that
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: it's fairly common throughout the universe because you've got, you know,
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: widely different circumstances in which life might have taken hold
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: in the Solar System. It's completely different than that's the
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: ledge you to the conclusion that it might form everywhere.
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: Or worst, Yeah, well, wouldn't that be something We just
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: got to find it. That's just got to get out
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: there and find it. Indeed, thank you, James. Great question.
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: I love those early life questions. And we've got one
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: more question to tackle today from Michael, who lives in Illinois.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: I've just now listened to the dark matter story in
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: the most recent podcast, which is no longer the most
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: recent podcast naturally, I'm now prompted to ask yet another
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: dark matter question. Does dark matter gravet gravitationally interact with itself?
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: As always your best, Michael. Thanks Michael. We don't often
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: get dark matter questions, so thanks for that.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: That's right, So I'm looking now at an article. When
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: was it published.
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: Four point one billion years ago?
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: Now? Yeah, So the model that we have of dark matter,
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: this is the standard model, and dark matter we don't
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: know what it is. So you know, you're always working
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: in the dark here, if I can put it that way, light,
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: dark photons, weekly interactive interacting, massive particles, primordial black holes,
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: all of those things. But the model that we have
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: of the basically the the you know, the way the
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: building blocks of matter work. The model suggests that whatever
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: it is, dark matter doesn't interact with itself, and because
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: it can only interact with gravity, but not in itself.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: But the article I'm looking at is from a paper
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: set of papers. I'm not going to go through it
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: in detail, but you can find it on Universe today.
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: It is called evidence of dark matter interacting with itself
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: in El Gordo merger al Gordo is the name of
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: a galaxy cluster if I remember rightly, and it's one
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: merging with another one. And so there is some evidence
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: of dark matter interacting with itself from that that galaxy cluster,
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: and it comes from gravitational lensing. You can plot where
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: the dark matter is by looking at the gravitational lensing.
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: So the answer yesterday would have been no, it doesn't
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: interact with itself. But since I saw this article today,
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: it's well, maybe.
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: It does, okay, and then what would that interaction entail.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: Basically it means well, the way that they have drawn
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: that conclusion is that when you plot where the dark
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: matter is in these two galaxy clusters, normally what we see,
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: and there are a number of examples of this. You
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: can you can look at galaxy clusters that are merging,
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: they're colliding. You can see that the stars and the
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: gas or pile up into a central region, but the
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: dark matter just keeps on going as though nothing had happened.
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: We see that. But there is some evidence in this
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: particular one that shows some sort of streaming between the
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: two blobs of dark matter associated with these two clusters colliding.
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: And that's that's what this has led to, this suggestion
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: that perhaps dark matter does interact with itself. I'm not
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: sure whether this might be a story we covered. Actually, Andrew,
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: it was not very long ago. As I've said last June,
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: we perhaps should put it on the agenda to talk
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: about in a little bit more details.
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: Possibly, So yes, yeah, there's there's that match research going
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: into this kind of thing. There's always something to talk
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: about when it comes to dark matter, and always a
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: question or two to answer. We get the occasional on ourselves,
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: thank you, Michael. But the answer is possibly yes at
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: this stage. So the answers today went yes, no, not
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: likely and yes that's right.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: I think good. Yeah, two and a half. Yes, this
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: is not bad.
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: It would have been a much shorter episode if I
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: just went yes, no, yes, maybe not you know done,
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: we've been over in a minute.
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we could have done. Yeah.
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, wouldn't have helped much. Thanks Michael. Great to hear
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: from you. If you've got a question for us, go
• 21:45
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• 21:47
  Speaker 1: through Space Nuts podcast dot com, Space Nuts dot ao.
• 21:51
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• 21:54
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• 21:57
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  Speaker 1: that as well if you will. Fred, we're done, Thank
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: you very much.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: It's a pleasure. Thank you, Andrew, and real talk soon.
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: We will, indeed, Professor Fred Watson, astronomer at large and
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: here in the studio. I don't think he surfaced today.
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: So one star, one star for you here and from
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: me Andrew Dunkley. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: time on another edition of Space Nuts. Bye bye. You'll
• 23:08
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