Latest / Whisky Unfinished / No One Had Ever Created a Whisky Fund… So We Did - Li Tan, Co-Founder of Rare Whisky Holdings

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No One Had Ever Created a Whisky Fund… So We Did - Li Tan, Co-Founder of Rare Whisky Holdings · Whisky Unfinished

0:00
I remember one whole weekend I was honestly on investopedia.com researching and learning what private equity was.
0:09
Rickesh Kishnani launched the world's first whisky investment fund.
0:12
We raised 12 million US and then we exited at 26 million in 2021.
0:17
The fund was founded on the idea of...
0:20
To make an 18 year old whisky takes 18 years of aging in a cask.
0:24
Timing was just terrible and then nobody wanted to be seen buying all this expensive wine.
0:30
Let's not scare people.
0:31
Going back to your happy place let's talk about whisky.
0:34
So this particular whisky which is an interesting one.
0:38
You're making a switch from private jet industry.
0:41
We have to evolve with the market.
0:43
And we literally bumped into each other.
0:45
You wanted someone like me but not me.
0:48
And then somehow we became business partners.
0:50
Go out there put yourself out there and establish the relationships.
0:54
Have you ever felt like at a disadvantage?
0:57
Thanks to you I'd actually never thought anything of that.
0:59
I've never asked you about this.
1:00
Are you just throwing out buzzwords that you read on a flyer?
1:04
What did you discover about yourself through that experience?
1:07
Oh that is a really deep question.
1:09
We're getting into it.
1:10
We're gonna get right into it.
1:12
All right so I was told we've got 90 seconds to get people's attention.
1:16
So I think we should just jump into the story of how we met.
1:20
We've known each other what 13 years now?
1:22
Almost.
1:23
Almost right?
1:23
Friends, business partners, 13 years.
1:25
Why don't you tell the story?
1:27
Usually I tell the story.
1:28
How did we meet and become business partners for over a decade?
1:32
How detailed do you want this to be?
1:34
I think the audience would love to know.
1:35
You go for it.
1:36
Wherever you want to share.
1:37
I mean it was very blurry.
1:39
I think as a first encounter we were both very young.
1:43
I think we're still in our 20s I guess.
1:47
It was at a club called Drop here in Hong Kong.
1:50
I guess a very clear first memory was like your text asking me to have lunch.
1:55
And I thought it was like this is weird.
1:57
I've never seen this guy under the daylight.
1:59
Like what does he want from me?
2:01
I'm having to run into you in clubs and bars.
2:04
I'm not sure about lunch.
2:05
It's a little bit too much to ask for.
2:08
Yeah and then somehow we became business partners now for over a decade.
2:13
I guess that was not really in the cards at that point when we first met.
2:18
Definitely not.
2:19
Drinking buddies at best.
2:21
Yeah so it was actually at Drop and I think it was somewhere around two in the morning.
2:26
And we literally bumped into each other because we were both trying to get shots for our respective group of friends.
2:32
And then I think I was trying to get you to try to get the bartender's attention because I really had no chance of getting these shots whatsoever.
2:39
So we pooled resources and then here we are.
2:42
So now we run Rare Whiskey Holdings which is a group of companies investing in the whisky industry in Scotland.
2:50
But let's I think go back in time to what was it 2012, 2013 when we first met.
2:56
We were running Platinum Wines at the time right?
2:59
So what what made you want to get involved in the wine industry?
3:02
Why did you why did you take that lunch?
3:04
Why did you even bother to talk to me?
3:07
I think I think you know like anything else in life you need to kind of be open minded right?
3:12
Open minded to hear what I have like anyone has to offer.
3:16
In your 20s you're also trying to discover yourself and just put yourself out there and learn and you know whether to be good or bad everything is a lesson and a blessing at the same time.
3:27
So I think what you say was interesting because you wanted someone like me but not me.
3:33
You still remember this like.
3:35
Exactly.
3:35
It's like oh I would love to have someone like you but not you.
3:40
Well I just thought the reason I said that is because I really thought you were working in the private jet industry at that time.
3:46
And you did private banking before that.
3:49
So I honestly thought you just were out of our league in terms of what we were able to hire.
3:53
But I know we wanted somebody smart, intelligent, hooked into the high net worth you know audience but also somebody who spoke Mandarin and somebody that I could get along with.
4:04
And so what I thought was hey I'm never going to get this person but she must have friends and colleagues and a network of people that you know maybe she knows somebody who would fit.
4:15
I was I was very pleasantly surprised when you said you were interested yourself.
4:19
But maybe a bit of reverse psychology worked there unintentionally right.
4:23
We always want what we can't have right.
4:26
No but I really appreciated your you know your vision for the business right.
4:31
I think when you share that what you want to accomplish in the wine industry I mean it is such I think at that time there were so many wine merchants in Hong Kong but I thought you were very different and you wanted something that is tailor-made to the clientele and really have the service mindset behind their selling wines.
4:51
So yeah it didn't work but it was a good idea.
4:55
I mean there's definitely been quite a few things we've tried that have definitely not worked.
4:59
I remember back then we were working on these Bordeaux trips right.
5:02
These like big buying.
5:04
trips. This was like 2012, 2013. We're like, we're going to get super high net worth, mostly mainland Chinese. I remember we even printed these like booklets. Remember these like Asian banker club booklets that we made, like 30 page booklets, super nice design. Timing was just terrible. It just didn't really work because it was right when I think the anti-gifting, anti-corruption stuff started in China and then nobody wanted to be seen buying all this expensive wine. It was like the exact opposite of timing. Let's go back to the one thing you said. You said in your twenties and thirties, it's all about discovery, right? You're discovering yourself. So what did you discover, I guess, about yourself when you were, let's go back to that time, right? So you're making a switch from private jet industry. You're getting into the wine industry, relatively small company, whatever. We had eight, 10 employees at the time. What did you discover about yourself through that experience? If you look back now, wow, that was a really deep question. We're getting into it. We're going to get right into it. I think at that time, I mean, from a self-discovery, part of the journey was about finding out my self-worth. Okay. You know, what can I contribute really to the society, right? Like the big banks, I mean, trying, working for Citibank really didn't tick the box. It's just like, you know, I'm just a number of employees of a big bank or a giant, right? So I wanted to be, I wanted to make an impact, whatever that means, right?
6:37
So really experimenting different part of the value that I could bring to the team was something that I wanted to see, you know, in a smaller company, you know, with my network in China, like, is this something that I could do? You know, it's like one of those moments where you need to find out, like, do you want to work on things you're not good at and try to be better at that or really focusing, putting your efforts in beauties, adding or adding values, just things that you already are good at.
7:10
Are you saying like things that you're already good at, you can get better doing those in big companies, but is entrepreneurship or smaller companies the only way to kind of really test the, you know, what you're saying in terms of being able to grow and doing things you really don't know? I mean, look, I've only ever been an entrepreneur, right? So I don't really know what it's like to work for a big company. I came very close back in, I think 2003, it was to working for Cadbury Schweppes. So yeah, I don't even know if you know this. So this was like 2003. I got introduced to this. Anyway, it doesn't matter. But I got offered a job as assistant brand manager for Cadbury Schweppes in New Jersey, right?
7:54
Super cool, New Jersey. And I remember they laid out this five year path to becoming brand manager, right? And basically, you had a very, very clear path where you did this, then you did that, you had to move categories, you had to do a food, then you had to do a drink.
8:11
And it was so structured and so boring, that, you know, I really just had no interest in that whatsoever. And it was mostly at that time, this is like 20 years ago, it was a glorified PowerPoint creator role, where you were the brand manager in between supply and pricing and like the people, all the other people, and you had to kind of bring it together.
8:31
So for me, like super early on, I was actually turned off by that path. And I went straight into entrepreneurship and worked on a tech company, as you know, for a while, and then kind of got here. And then we ended up doing wine. And now we're doing whisky. Where do you think people can, you know, because I think your story is when you're saying, okay, Citibank wasn't for me. Like, I'm sure there's a lot of people listening or watching who maybe feel the same way, right? Like, I'm in a job that I don't really love. Are you saying they have to find a startup in order to get that feeling? Or is there other ways?
9:03
No, I mean, it's different for everybody, right? Like, I think you need to sometimes quiet your mind and listen to your heart or just go and think about moments when your inner child was like, the happiest, right? Like, you're actually the happiest. And I think this is when you find peace and purpose in things that you're doing. I mean, to be honest, I mean, in my 20s, it's all about discovery, meaning you get to try different things.
9:30
Yeah, travel, move countries, try different jobs. I think that is kind of the fun of it.
9:35
But going back to you're saying your happy place. Let's talk about whisky.
9:45
Yeah, I don't think it's an accident. I ended up in the alcohol or whisky industry. I definitely wasn't drinking whisky back in college, but definitely enjoyed a drink. So firstly, Solange. And then we'll talk a little bit about. So this particular whisky, which is an interesting one and a special one for us. This one, I don't know if you've ever commemorates the Platinum Whiskey Fund, the private equity fund that we ran together for for seven years. So this is a 21 year old Macallan. It was distilled back in the 1970s, bottled sometime in the in the 1990s. I chose this whisky for us to drink, of course, because we gave a bottle of this to every investor in the fund and obviously we took one each ourselves. So for me, this whisky always represents our success and our learnings from running that fund. Right. And it wasn't long, actually, after you joined Platinum Wines that we kind of evolved maybe a few months until we kind of moved into working on the funds.
10:47
Right. Yeah. OK. So it was only two months. And I said, right, what we hired you for, we're not doing that anymore. Let's do something totally different.
10:56
And then I think that relationship continues. Right.
10:59
I think it's still what we're doing. I'm doing it to you today. Yeah. How about we do this instead?
11:05
Yeah. So for anyone who doesn't know, why don't you say a little bit about what the fund was?
11:10
So the fund was founded on the idea of cornering old and rare single malt whisky, whether it be bottles or casks, and then hold it. Then at the very opportunistic time, we'll then sell it. And then our exit channels includes private individuals, other funds and collectors around the world. Yeah. So we raised 12 million U.S. back in 2014-15, and then we exited at 26 million in 2021. That's just the high level stats of what happened. And from that perspective, it all sounds great. But let's go a little bit deeper, because I think you and I know it was definitely not an easy road for you. Were you familiar with private equity, private equity funds? Was this a world that you had had kind of exposure to? Because I'll be honest now, easy to say now, I really knew nothing about private equity when we first got into it. I was honestly on investopedia.com. I remember one whole weekend researching and learning what private equity was, 2 in 20 management fees, hurdle rates, all that stuff that I kind of know instinctively now. But back then, I had to learn it from scratch. I never got any formal education on that. Did you have more knowledge than I did? I hope so. I mean, let's not scare people with not knowing what we were doing. I think I have an idea of it. We as in the family has invested in private equity funds, but I am not a fund manager, so I never really had a chance to.
12:53
Well, I think we were super lucky with the lawyers, with the advisors, with obviously Steve Bernstein, who was, I think, critical. I can't really mention the fund without saying Steve's name, who was such a mentor to me and really helped us to really get everything kind of formalized all at the right time and happened to be, obviously, he was running the fund administration company at the time that super kind of helped us. But looking back, I guess, to the early days of the fund, we set up the fund. We did the PPM. We did some early press release, if you remember. That worked pretty well. Bloomberg, blah, blah. We got some good exposure.
13:31
We raised like 2, 3 million, I think it was, pretty quickly just from our own network of of investors. And then there came this like 12-month slog, which at the time felt like the end of the world, at least to me, where we were just pitching to everyone and no one was saying yes. What was going through your mind, if you can think back to, this is like 2014, I guess, where we were out there, we were doing events. I was telling the story to anyone who was willing to listen, basically, and I think you were too. What was it like for you back then that you remember? What did you take out of that experience, if anything? Well, I had people saying no to me for the first time in my life. That was not great. But I have to learn to take rejection.
14:19
I think that was a very big learning. And I'm very, I'm forever grateful that I was able to be on the journey with you. I think if I were to be alone, I think that would have, I think I would have given up. Yeah, I don't think I would have made it a few times along the last 10 years, if not for you as well. I'll cheers to that. Yeah, I agree with that. If for people who are maybe listening, who are, you know, everyone who's an entrepreneur is always thinking about raising capital, right? Raising capital, whether you have a startup, whether you have a fund, whether you have a project, what were your or some of your key learnings that you would apply today or you would share with people listening? I'm out there trying to raise money. What do you think are the keys to that being successful? I think your why has to be strong enough to keep you going. Yeah. It's you know, you ask yourself, like, why are you doing this? Right? I think if your why isn't strong, strong enough, then you will not know how to pivot.
15:16
I think that the why was our North Star.
15:19
Yeah, I mean, and also have to be flexible, agile enough, like not going in with a big ego, right.
15:25
To just say, OK, that was not good.
15:27
Well, how can we tell the story better?
15:30
And you also get feedback from pitching.
15:34
So I think, you know, you and I evolve.
15:36
I don't know how many versions of DAC, of pitches.
15:41
Because I think, you know, that was also the beauty of the journey is that not that you know at all is that you are happy to learn along the way.
15:50
Yeah, I agree with that.
15:51
I think you have to be clear what you're trying to ask for, the why, as you said, and you have to ask for it.
15:56
I think a lot of times I see a lot of pitch books.
15:58
I think you get a lot of stuff kind of from all over the world now, I'm sure, with all the different ventures that you have outside of whisky.
16:05
And we'll talk about that later.
16:06
But I find one of the most annoying things in like any time I get information that there's not a clear like first slide of how much are you trying to raise?
16:14
What's the valuation you're trying to raise and what are you trying to do?
16:18
If you if that's not page one, I'm already losing interest because now I got to go through this 40 slide deck just to like get to the meat.
16:26
And then, of course, yes, I do want to read the other information.
16:29
But I think we were pretty direct and at least that I think got us a yes where we got a few of those.
16:35
We also got a lot of no's.
16:36
But I would rather get the no than a maybe or just no response whatsoever.
16:41
Right. And that was the most annoying part.
16:43
I felt was like, well, you'd have this great meeting and you think you got some some potential and then they disappear for like a month. So I think you want you want a decision kind of either way and just keep that target list super focused. I mean, we just used Excel.
16:57
I don't remember having anything more sophisticated.
17:00
Color coded Excel.
17:02
Very color coded Excel with a yes, maybe not now.
17:07
Come back in six months and never, ever, ever.
17:09
Yeah. I mean, we had some some surprises as well, I think, with your interview and then your LinkedIn post.
17:16
I mean, you got reverse inquiry as well.
17:19
Yeah, no, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
17:21
We had an investor, a lovely lady, won't say her name, but a lovely lady from Canada who saw the interview, found me on LinkedIn.
17:29
We had a couple of calls and she ended up investing two hundred fifty thousand US.
17:33
I actually still haven't met her.
17:35
We we have had many calls and many Zooms and have a kind of relationship.
17:39
But that reminds me I should probably still pay her a visit at some point and give her a thank you, because that's pretty amazing that she took that leap of faith.
17:47
We also had an investor who doesn't drink.
17:49
Remember? Right.
17:50
So a good friend in Singapore who teetotaller never, never, ever touched alcohol for whatever decades and days, but he saw the model, thought it was interesting and kind of went for it.
18:00
So we also converted a non-whisky drinker to a whisky lover.
18:04
So, well, I think the other learning from that, for me at least, was also you don't really know where it's going to come from.
18:09
Like some of the ones we thought definitely is going to happen didn't happen.
18:13
The ones that we thought probably not ended up coming in a little bit higher.
18:17
So I think you have to keep an open mind and just keep focused on it.
18:21
Right. And you just have to keep doing it again and again.
18:23
And I mean, I remember I was having dreams about, you know, pitching the fund.
18:27
I can still say the, you know, it's been 10 years.
18:29
I could still say the pitch like, you know, like that anytime anybody asked for it, because we were just so good at telling the story.
18:37
And it was a story we believed, going back to your point about, you know, having that North Star.
18:42
One thing we didn't know, though, I think you'd agree, is how the hell we were going to exit.
18:46
So I feel like we made it through that fundraising, you know, round.
18:50
And that was a huge, like two years worth of work.
18:53
Then we got into buying and we bought a lot of whisky.
18:55
I think we had 12,000 bottles worth of whisky at one point.
18:58
Then let's fast forward a little bit.
19:00
We got into 2019.
19:02
So we had Brexit. That sucked.
19:03
Then we went straight into the global pandemic, which was five years ago already, by the way.
19:10
So we hit some super hard macro challenges towards the end of the fund.
19:16
But we still managed to exit and exit on time.
19:19
What did you take away from that part of the experience?
19:22
Because you also were instrumental to finding some key distributors, especially the European distributor who took, I think, five, six million towards the end.
19:30
Right. What was your experience kind of going through those few years of the fund where we had to exit and we wanted to exit?
19:38
I think there are a few key takeaways.
19:40
The first thing is if we were to do another fund.
19:44
Yeah, teaser alert.
19:48
We must think about the exit first.
19:50
Yeah. I think, you know, the exit channels.
19:52
Yes, it will. It will change and evolve.
19:55
But we must have a clear exit channels to begin with.
19:58
Yeah, I think, you know, the first learning was that.
20:01
Second learning was, you know, it's similar to the idea of pitching.
20:07
You just have to also go out there, put yourself out there and establish the relationships and speak to different kind of people.
20:15
It's also a numbers game.
20:16
Yeah.
20:17
Yeah, which we were pretty bad at because it was only two of us literally in the company for a long time.
20:24
Plus, we should we should mention Yanny, of course, who as our head of operations has always been the cornerstone and the rock to everything that we've been able to accomplish.
20:33
So thank you, Yanny.
20:35
But yeah, for a long time, it was just you and me out there trying to kind of do the best that we could.
20:40
And now it's great that we have a little bit of a team and can kind of spread that, you know, those resources and I guess that activity a little bit more, too.
20:48
But for me, I think a lot of the exit, I agree, it was about finding the exit channels earlier.
20:54
And I think that's really what evolved into what Rare Whiskey Holdings is today.
20:57
Right.
20:58
So we we have investments in Whiskey Hammer and Auction House, Still Spirit, e-commerce website for whisky, the warehouse.
21:07
We have our own casks, Halcyon.
21:09
There we go.
21:10
And then our own independent bottling brand.
21:14
So what did you take from your experience when we went from fund to more, I guess, not really venture capital, but at least a venture capital style approach where we were investing in companies in the in the scotch industry and kind of where we are today now with all of these companies?
21:31
What did you, I guess, take from this experience the last five years?
21:36
I think we were so stuck when we were trying to exit that I think exit channels became the important point.
21:47
And you know, the idea of building the whole entire ecosystem for whisky was also crucial.
21:53
You cannot have if you have access to one part of the business, the others are controlled by someone else.
22:00
It's also harder for us to mitigate and change the industry we want to see.
22:06
I mean, change the, have the changes within the industry that we, you and I can actually take control of.
22:13
I think that was like one of the learnings.
22:16
Like anything else, as the world keeps changing, I think we also have pivoted our business model a few times.
22:22
And I think it's all for the better, right?
22:24
Because we can't, I think in order for us to keep up or stay relevant in a very opaque industry like whisky, we have to evolve with the market.
22:35
Yeah.
22:36
And I think to be honest, that's like the key to entrepreneurship.
22:38
So I think this is my whatever ninth or 10th kind of company that I've been involved in.
22:45
Some successful exits, some not as successful and keep going.
22:49
But I think my learnings looking over the last 20 years of being in entrepreneurship, I think the only key that I can point to across different industries, tech, F&B, private equity, water retail is the ones that are willing to adapt.
23:02
And it doesn't have to always be a pivot.
23:04
I actually don't like the word pivot because I think it's kind of a bit overused and it sounds like you're changing your whole model.
23:10
It doesn't always have to be that extreme, though sometimes yes, but I think it's more adjusting, right?
23:15
And if you can adjust to where the market's at and stay nimble, then those are the guys who always, I feel like find a way to win or find a way to kind of get out of the rut that they're in.
23:26
Right.
23:27
So why don't we talk about that?
23:28
The whisky market right now, this is not a whisky podcast, but we should talk a little bit about whisky.
23:33
The whisky market right now, pretty challenging, right?
23:36
Last two years specifically, we've seen a decrease in luxury spending around the world.
23:42
That's wine, whisky, art, everything, right?
23:46
Outside of gold and I guess crypto, most things have had a rocky side to things.
23:52
What's your view of the whisky market right now?
23:56
I know a lot of people send me articles like, oh, everybody's not drinking.
24:00
Nobody's drinking.
24:01
The young people aren't drinking.
24:02
What's your view when you hear stuff like that or when you're out there talking to people about what's going on in the whisky market right now?
24:10
I think like anything else, whisky is also a very cyclical market.
24:16
When the market is down, I mean, it is a buyer's market, right?
24:19
Like if you're looking at it from the angle, I would say even just three years ago, everything was so overpriced.
24:26
Now you're really getting good like value for money, bottles or casks.
24:32
So from a buyer perspective, I think it is a great market right now to buy things at a very good value.
24:41
But if you're saying, you know, the people are not drinking, I think it really goes back down to the fundamental, right?
24:46
Like will the distilleries make enough whisky to supply 20, 30 years down the line, right?
24:54
I mean, as we know, whisky is not something that you could have turned overnight.
24:59
You do need time.
25:00
I think the fundamental of the business model have not changed since the 1700s, right?
25:06
I mean, it's like you want to call this a whisky, you have to wait three years for this to be properly called Scottish whisky.
25:13
And 21 years for this really, I still think, amazing, sherry, beautiful.
25:19
Exactly.
25:20
And one thing that money cannot buy.
25:22
AI is going back in time.
25:25
Not yet, anyway.
25:26
AI is going pretty fast, but they haven't invented the time machine yet.
25:29
So I think, yeah, and there have been a lot of technologies trying to speed up the pace of whisky.
25:36
I haven't really found anything that kind of works.
25:38
I'm happy to be kind of proven wrong.
25:40
There's obviously a lot of whisky now being made in every corner of the world.
25:44
Right.
25:45
Like India is making whiskys.
25:47
Thailand is making whisky.
25:49
Hong Kong, I think, makes whisky now.
25:51
We have a bottle of it next door.
25:52
We'll try it later tonight.
25:55
So you can basically make whisky anywhere, but you can't make aged whisky anywhere because of the humidity, temperature, kind of all these other factors.
26:04
Japan, I guess, is kind of the only place where they've done it well.
26:08
You know, the China market quite well.
26:10
You've been traveling there quite often.
26:13
What's going on with whisky in China from your perspective?
26:16
There is that domestic production and domestic demand from within China.
26:23
And I think you and I actually tried some of the whisky.
26:27
Yeah. Was it last year?
26:28
We were in Shenzhen. It was last year.
26:30
Shenzhen and Guangzhou.
26:31
We tried some Chinese whisky.
26:33
I was not that impressed, personally.
26:36
I thought it was interesting, though.
26:38
What I was surprised by, I guess, was how varied the taste was.
26:42
Like they were making out of, what was it, rice wine?
26:46
Yeah, it wasn't like a single...
26:48
I guess when I say I wasn't impressed, I shouldn't say it that way.
26:51
I should say it was just very different in the sense like they weren't trying to make 21-year-old single malt whisky. That's not what they're attempting.
26:58
But they are doing a lot of different things, right?
27:01
Yeah. And I think it is unique to China because of China as a country has many different provinces and different provinces have different cuisines, and some will pair better with the local cuisine versus others.
27:16
And what I appreciate about what the Chinese whisky makers are doing is, to your point, they're not trying to be Scotch whisky.
27:23
Yeah, they are trying to produce Chinese whisky.
27:27
So I think that is a very unique point.
27:30
And, you know, talking about aging, some distilleries are situated in the south.
27:36
They're most likely not going to be able to make 21, 30-year-old whisky.
27:41
No, the weather just doesn't allow the aging.
27:43
Correct. So I think for a different place, so some of them are just targeting the mass market, hoping more whisky drinkers will come into the market.
27:54
And some are playing the higher end market as well.
27:58
So it is a big market.
27:59
By the end of the day, there's only six to seven percent of the population that drink whisky or appreciate whisky at this moment. We're also hoping that the numbers will go up.
28:08
Yeah, I mean, look, I still think China's at the very, very, very beginning of really understanding and getting into whisky.
28:16
Right. I think we kind of I don't know the exact numbers, but it's only a few of the people that drink alcohol in China.
28:22
We're talking about single digits in terms of the people who drink whisky.
28:26
Right. It's still mostly maotai.
28:28
It's still obviously beer.
28:30
But yeah, whisky is still a very tiny.
28:32
But interestingly, and I want to get your perspective on this.
28:35
When we were in Shenzhen last year and we went out to a couple of the like not really clubs, but more like bars, we saw groups of women, I would guess maybe in their 20s, sitting around, bottle in the middle, gumbay, like enjoying whisky.
28:49
And you don't see that quite as much in other parts of the world.
28:52
Why is that happening in China?
28:55
And why hasn't it happened anywhere else?
28:57
And is that a trend you think that we're going to see more of?
29:00
I think in China there I mean, I don't know.
29:03
I don't have the exact number with me now.
29:06
I remember reading this and this was about a decade ago, the pay difference between men and women in China.
29:14
The gap is a lot lesser compared to our counterparts in North America.
29:18
That's interesting. I didn't know that.
29:20
So, you know, women have more like spending power.
29:23
They could, you know, even literally treat it like the same way.
29:27
It's not because you're a woman.
29:28
You're not allowed to do something.
29:30
And that's no concept of like this is for men only or this is for women.
29:33
That's what I think it's about, because I think in the Western world, particularly, right, whisky has this connotation with generally a white guy in their 40s or 50s, right? And that is and that whole, I guess, subtext or that context is one hundred percent comes through in media and movies and all I got from James Bond to Mad Men.
29:53
Like that's what people portray and see.
29:55
But in China, I feel like they didn't start with that bias.
29:58
Like nobody told women you're supposed to have rosé and the men are supposed to have whisky or whatever the construct is.
30:05
Right. So I feel like with that openness, actually from a flavor point of view and from a, you know, wanting to drink and enjoy point of view, whisky is actually quite appealing.
30:15
It's got high ABV. It's got a story.
30:17
It's, you know, the way you drink it is you don't mix it with anything.
30:21
It's great for sharing with a group of friends.
30:23
I feel like those like points actually.
30:26
I've said this many times, I think actually do well or pair well with Chinese culture, right?
30:31
In the sense of how they want to enjoy alcohol.
30:34
I think that the either the yellow wine like Huangjiu or Baijiu, right?
30:39
Like the white rice wine category because the ABV naturally are quite high.
30:46
So any kind of spirits, it's not of a shock to the system.
30:51
Yeah, you're used to that.
30:53
Exactly.
30:53
I think wine took them quite a bit of time to get used to, but...
30:58
Whiskey should be easier.
30:59
Yeah, a lot easier.
31:00
And so, okay, I guess I should ask at least in some way.
31:03
You're a woman in whisky, right?
31:06
Have you ever, I guess, been asked about that?
31:09
What are your feelings about that?
31:12
It is a very male-dominated industry.
31:15
Particularly, I would say, in terms of the distillation and at least a lot of, the making of whisky, etc.
31:22
Historically, very male-dominated industry.
31:25
I've never looked at it that way because we've always been kind of partners.
31:28
And I think there's a huge opportunity for women, men, everyone to drink whisky.
31:33
What's been your experience?
31:34
Have you ever felt at a disadvantage because you were in this industry?
31:39
Or have you felt, hey, this is unique because you're particularly an Asian woman in the whisky industry?
31:45
How do you feel about it?
31:48
I think maybe thanks to you.
31:49
I actually never thought anything about it.
31:51
I've never asked you about this.
31:53
But I've been meaning to ask you about this.
31:54
So this seems like a good time to do it in front of the internet.
32:00
I mean, it is such an interesting question.
32:04
I think it has to do with my background a little bit.
32:07
Growing up in a family business with my dad and also in a very male-dominant businesses.
32:14
I never really think that this is only for female or male.
32:18
I think everybody is equal as long as you have the ability to do something.
32:24
Perhaps being a female in a male-dominant industry, you kind of have to work slightly harder.
32:31
Or people have a different point of view and say, oh, are you the secretary?
32:37
What are you doing here?
32:39
I think you do have to kind of prove yourself a little bit more.
32:44
I would say I definitely had a sense when we were fundraising.
32:47
We were like, oh, where's your boss?
32:50
It's me.
32:53
I am the captain now.
32:55
But what kind of reactions do you get now?
32:58
Because you have your family business.
33:00
You still do a lot for that.
33:01
You have another business called Odyssey Ventures.
33:03
We'll talk about that maybe a bit later.
33:05
But when you tell people, hey, I work in the whisky industry.
33:08
This is what I do.
33:09
How do people react to that now?
33:12
What usually happens?
33:13
It's like, well, what are you drinking now?
33:15
That's what everyone wants to know.
33:17
What are you drinking?
33:18
I was like, do I look like an alcoholic?
33:21
I'm in a business, but I don't drink every day.
33:23
I know.
33:23
I wish we could just sit around and chat like this and have whisky every day.
33:28
This is unfortunately not most of our jobs.
33:31
We have to thank Ben from our team for encouraging us to do this podcast.
33:36
But at least gives us a chance to sit and have a conversation and have a drink.
33:39
Because we actually don't do it that often.
33:42
More often than not, we're in meetings, Excel sheets, kind of getting PowerPoints and kind of getting things done.
33:48
So it is nice to stop and kind of have a dram and enjoy the moment.
33:53
Cheers.
33:57
So what do you take, I guess, from where we are now?
34:01
What are the opportunities ahead for the whisky industry?
34:06
We've talked about kind of the evolution.
34:09
If I can summarize, I think at least while we've been involved, there was a meteoric rise from kind of 2014, let's say 2022, right?
34:18
Where prices were going up, everything was going up.
34:21
There was a lot of demand for everything.
34:23
We got involved in a lot of different businesses.
34:26
Last two years have been quite different.
34:29
Where do you see the opportunities ahead in the, let's say, next three to five years?
34:34
Where are the markets?
34:35
Where are the opportunities for anybody who might be interested in getting involved in the whisky industry or who wants to pay attention to what's going on in the whisky industry?
34:44
I think the market has shifted in a way where in the past, we are very much product focused.
34:51
Okay.
34:52
Where you come up with something and be like, you must like this, right?
34:56
Or I find a market, the idea to you that you must like something.
35:02
I think with the younger generation, there is also a shift where it is more community-based and people actually want to be heard.
35:12
Okay.
35:13
So when you say younger, sorry, the younger generation, who are we talking about?
35:17
Not me, obviously, because I don't even have Instagram.
35:19
People in their 30s or 20s.
35:21
And these are people you know, because I don't know many of these people.
35:24
I have some touch points, I would say.
35:26
And what do you mean when you say, I want to dive a bit deeper.
35:30
When you say community, I mean, we all kind of want that community, right?
35:33
How is that different from maybe what I want as someone in their 40s versus what somebody in their 20s or early 30s wants in terms of community?
35:42
What does that mean?
35:43
So in the past, I would say people our age like the idea of like, oh, this is a nice bottle of whisky and I would like to enjoy with my group of friends only, right? Like the effort is less collective.
35:56
And I would say community these days, like we want to say even we could be coming from very, very, very different background, but that's the sense that we all belong to the same community because you could be whisky lovers from different parts of the world.
36:10
But, you know, we kind of have a voice to say, OK, we like Petey whisky, but with a hint of sherry cast or something like they want to be able to communicate within the people that have the same like minded people.
36:24
OK, and you're seeing this across different industry.
36:26
This is more like a general consumer kind of the way that people want to interact with brands or what or how they want to.
36:35
They just try to understand more what you mean, you know, this community.
36:38
I guess I'm not part of any community, clearly.
36:40
That's why I just I hang out with the same ten friends pretty much all the time.
36:45
When I when I find time, that is to hang out with my friends.
36:49
It's, you know, it's yourself and a group of probably about another ten people and I'm kind of good there.
36:54
But is this more because of how easy it is, obviously, you know, for online communities and so on?
37:00
I thought it was going the other way because I thought with A.I.
37:03
and with all the developments like more the younger generation are actually becoming more inward in the sense that like they're on their phones all the time.
37:11
They're only communicating through apps and things like that.
37:14
And they're not really wanting this community.
37:18
They're getting more inward and more isolated.
37:20
Isn't that what we're seeing, especially in communities like, I guess, Japan, Korea, I'm just saying that because I was in Korea recently, as you know.
37:27
And like in that community, it's a big problem because not enough people are dating, not enough people are getting married, not enough people are are having kids. Right. And this is there's this isolation theme to that.
37:38
But you're saying it's different.
37:39
Is it Western world versus Asian world?
37:42
No, I think that people that are on their phone, they are on the phone with other people that are online.
37:49
They're not on the I mean, they could I don't know.
37:52
They could be on the phone with another bot for all we know.
37:55
I have no idea what on Instagram is real or, you know, like, you know, if you so my realization is that the community is built upon a common interest and people are not necessarily sitting down and drinking like you and I are doing right there or they're constantly chatting and discussing something on a group chat or a community based platform.
38:22
Yeah.
38:23
Some I mean that I'm not involved in, but this court is a big one.
38:28
Right. This court's obviously I think I think more for and I'm not involved either, but more for kind of crypto and Web3 and all that kind of stuff. But it's very, very active community.
38:39
Right.
38:40
But I think you're thinking more also like TikTok and like some of the Snapchat, whatever, some of the bigger but aren't those really not about community at the end of the day, like isn't TikTok and and Snapchat all about just showing the world that, you know, what I eat for breakfast is the best breakfast in the world.
38:56
And look, I can do this dance and all of that.
38:58
Is that really community?
38:59
But it's all the comments that are coming in.
39:01
Right. Like, why do you think people are chiming in? They want to have a belonging that, OK, I approve.
39:07
I disapprove. Like I'm part of this community.
39:09
Like I'm the health conscious club or I'm like, you know, don't care about the health stuff is a bit too much.
39:15
Everyone is everyone is somehow now like a health expert.
39:20
But OK, we'll try.
39:21
We have this is our first episode.
39:22
We have no idea if we get five listens.
39:24
That'd be great. But if you're one of those five listeners, you want to leave us a comment, a question.
39:27
We'd like that. Right.
39:29
So it'd be good to engage and start to engage with our own community and keep improving and keep improving. Yeah.
39:34
This is this is podcast number one.
39:36
I also have a bit of a truth to tell, which is that I don't really listen to podcasts.
39:42
I tried a few times.
39:43
I don't know. I'm not really into it.
39:46
So I'll be quite surprised if this works, to be honest.
39:49
But let's see if we can do something hopefully a little bit interesting.
39:54
And yeah, try to try to go down that road.
39:56
OK, so we're a whisky company.
39:58
We want to reach this next generation.
40:00
What's the key to that?
40:01
Then you're saying community.
40:03
Well, how do we do that?
40:04
What do what do we have to do there?
40:06
What are the keys to reaching this, this younger audience, and do they even want to know about alcohol?
40:12
I think some do.
40:13
I think the twist is not about alcohol, it's the storytelling part, right?
40:19
I think it's how do we engage them?
40:22
Everybody wants to be engaged in some form, right?
40:24
How do we make it cool enough for people, for the younger generations or next generations to engage?
40:30
I think that is where we're trying to get to.
40:33
Yeah. Storytelling is always the key.
40:34
Right.
40:35
So but I mean.
40:35
That's kind of humanity.
40:37
We're storytellers, right?
40:39
Before we had the Internet, there was a time where we didn't have the Internet.
40:44
There were generations where history was only passed through storytelling, right, from one generation kind of down to the next.
40:51
So I agree with that. It is all about storytelling.
40:53
What do you think the story here is about Scotch whisky?
40:56
If you were going to talk to me about the story of Scotch whisky, what is it that appealed to you? We've been to Scotland at least a dozen times now.
41:05
Together, right.
41:07
What is it about Scotland that appeals to you?
41:09
The nature and how everything has an ecosystem to be more sustainable.
41:15
Are you just throwing out buzzwords that you read on a flyer?
41:19
Have you actually been to Scotland?
41:22
But that sounded like a very nice.
41:24
Do you work for the eco sustainable tourism chapter?
41:28
This is where I'm coming in from, right?
41:30
Like me, I love the history, right?
41:33
Like the rich and the craftsmanship.
41:34
Are we talking Braveheart history, like freedom?
41:38
A hundred percent.
41:39
You know, I love that kind of like texture and context.
41:43
But with the younger generation, I don't think we want to hear the same story anymore.
41:50
That's my take, right?
41:51
Because sometimes I will share something with, you know, college students.
41:56
It's like, oh, this is really cool because it's started in 1700s.
42:00
And the press and this and, you know, why it came so important and how Whiskey Zeus Lair was actually illegal back then.
42:10
Right. Those were like cool stories.
42:12
But it doesn't it doesn't hit.
42:16
It's not appealing.
42:17
You don't know. Why is that?
42:19
Why? They just don't care.
42:20
They just couldn't care less.
42:21
They're like, well, you know, what is it in the future for me?
42:24
Right. OK.
42:25
So you have to like, how am I involved?
42:26
How are you engaging me?
42:28
I was like, OK, let me think about that. Yeah, interesting.
42:33
Well, that's a that's a challenge, I think, to any brand out there is always to be thinking about how you're going to engage that that next generation of customers. Right.
42:41
It doesn't matter kind of what what you're selling.
42:43
But I agree with you. I think the stories are pretty cool.
42:46
I don't know if this story is true or not, but I think there's some truth to it, which is generally how these things become tales.
42:53
But my understanding is somewhere around in the 17 or 1800s or before that, it was mostly illegal distilling and it was mostly people who were just drinking spirit.
43:03
So it was like this color, not this color.
43:08
And then there was a king of France who was visiting Scotland.
43:12
He knew about the illicit distilling.
43:14
And so he he specifically asked for so he asked for whisky from, you know, some of those those distilleries up north and they bought it for him.
43:24
And he loved it so much.
43:25
He wanted to take it back to France.
43:27
But at that time, this is like several weeks of a trip or maybe even a month or two, as he said, he wanted to take some home with them. They had no idea what to put it in.
43:34
So they ended up putting it in like an oak barrel or something they had laying around.
43:38
And he got back to France and found that the color had changed and that the flavor had changed.
43:43
And that is potentially maybe again, I have no idea if there's any truth to this, but that's how they discovered that aging whisky in barrels or in wood changes the flavor over time. I think that's kind of cool.
43:56
I think throughout history, there's a lot of things that have been, I guess, discovered by accident a little bit.
44:02
Right.
44:03
So we will have to see what what new accidents there are to to discover as this moves forward.
44:10
Yeah, I agree.
44:13
So moving forward, you're involved in a lot of different things, which is pretty, I think, pretty amazing.
44:20
We have the whisky business.
44:21
You have several businesses with your family that you're involved in.
44:25
And one of the other businesses that you have, you started, I think, with a partner as well is called Odyssey Ventures.
44:30
Tell us a little bit more about how long has it been around?
44:33
What is Odyssey Ventures?
44:34
Because it ties into your eco sustainable tourism ad you just did three minutes ago.
44:40
So that's a good tie in.
44:42
I think I do believe that.
44:47
We have to be a little bit more responsible with the resources that we're given.
44:51
Yeah.
44:51
So it started with the initiative from the family.
44:57
We since we're in forestry and manufacturing, we have a lot of waste.
45:01
Right. And how do we be better?
45:03
You know, the waste, what do we what can we do with the waste that are there?
45:08
So in the past, we actually just burn them.
45:10
And then, you know, that generate energy around the the factory that we have.
45:16
So fast forward, we're looking at different solutions to our own problem that we have.
45:21
OK, so fast forward.
45:23
So when was that like 20, 20, 19, 18, 19?
45:28
That's the beginning of it.
45:29
OK, we also want we were probably one of the earlier investors that believe in the solar power.
45:37
So in 2013, we started investing in this.
45:40
It's a company called Canadian Solar that was listed in the U.S.
45:44
And we exited fully in 2017.
45:47
Not in Canada. They weren't proud enough to list it there.
45:50
It's actually founded by a Chinese guy.
45:51
Oh, a Chinese guy, of course, founded Canadian Solar and listed it in the U.S.
45:56
Love it.
45:56
Yeah, the typical story.
46:00
And then fast forward, since we have made that initial investment and exited with a profit, we started venturing in further in this particular vertical, finding solutions that generate powers and more sustainably and also more cost effective.
46:20
Those are the key points that we're after, right?
46:22
So one investment or another, we ended up investing in 13 portfolio companies.
46:28
It's a lot.
46:29
Yes. And mostly where? Asia or where are they?
46:32
So 50% here in Asia-Pacific and then 50% in North America and Europe.
46:39
All energy focused or all sustainability focused?
46:45
Yes, correct.
46:46
So it's energy efficiency and industrial tech.
46:51
So I guess coming from the industrial background, we wanted to be more efficient and also being more responsible for our environment.
47:03
So those were the driver to where we are now.
47:08
So that was the first initiative.
47:10
And, you know, as anything else, like our whisky business as well, it's always about managing the portfolio after we put money behind, right?
47:19
Making sure that they survive, making sure the technology is getting to the end client.
47:24
So those are the things we do.
47:26
Yeah. Well, great. Congratulations.
47:28
It sounds pretty, pretty amazing.
47:29
And I guess how is the pace of technology helping you do what you want to do?
47:35
I mean, are there solutions now to things that there weren't five years ago?
47:39
Is there an example you can give me?
47:41
Like, like, yeah, what what can be done today that couldn't be done five years ago, you know, that you were involved in somehow that's helping the environment or helping the world?
47:50
Yeah. So we invested in the company last year that will recycle marine wall sludge.
48:01
So the usually you see this like gross looking thing that floats on the ocean.
48:06
Yeah. So that so like five years ago, they used stuff like this stuff that comes out of like the container ships and all that. Yes. Correct.
48:15
Because you see like this brown stuff coming out of the end of the container ship. That's definitely not good.
48:22
That's really bad for all the marine life.
48:24
It's bad for us. Right.
48:25
Also, cruise ships are terrible. Correct. Yeah. Very good.
48:29
Yeah. So those are the things that, you know, they're called the sludge from the cruise ship and container ships.
48:37
So five years ago, a lot of a lot of authorities to say, OK, you can't really dispose that anymore.
48:44
You have to like bring it back to a waste management company to treat them.
48:49
Right. Right. So the company was like, well, what do I do with this?
48:52
I can't do anything. So they just burn them, which is not just better.
48:57
Yeah. Kicking the can up, I guess, in terms of the environment instead of the sea.
49:03
But just as bad or worse. Yeah. So fast forward.
49:07
Yeah. What can technology do now?
49:08
So we invested in a company that's based in Spain, and they actually turned the sludge into new marine fuel cells.
49:16
So somewhat efficiently. Yes. OK.
49:19
So the recovery rate is 90 percent. All right.
49:22
Yeah. So pretty much, you know, the sludge, which is like brown and dark, like black, almost black color to, you know, clear fuel cells again to then sell it back to the cruise ships or the container ships. Right.
49:36
So this is a drop in solution because, you know, a lot when we say drop in, it's like you don't have to change the configuration of your ship to use this tech new. Which is great.
49:45
Yeah. There's no cost, right?
49:46
Because if there's a cost involved, they're just not going to do it.
49:48
Exactly. So what's stopping, I guess, all of that being implemented everywhere?
49:53
Why isn't every marine ship or every ship in the world using this technology?
49:58
Now, if that exists, what's the challenge?
50:00
So the technology or this company just started the first commercial plant.
50:07
OK. They just got the permit to build it.
50:09
It was early days. Very early days.
50:11
So it is something that, you know, for us, logistic is everything, right?
50:16
I mean, buying things from Taobao to ship around the world.
50:19
This is a very crucial industry.
50:22
And for us, especially, we manufacture to export.
50:26
So that was why we decided to look into this sector as well.
50:30
Yeah, which is great.
50:31
And it's good that you have a, I guess, holistic view on everything that you're getting involved in and looking at the impact that all these different pieces have on what you're doing. Right.
50:40
I hope that even in the whisky industry and some of the things we're doing, we could always continue.
50:44
you need to do better where it comes down to packaging, shipping, even how the production is done, the glass.
50:52
There's so many areas I still think there could be better innovation and better use of recycling.
50:58
I think recycling, again, I don't like that word, but more efficient disposal or at least not harming the environment in the way that those things are done.
51:09
All right, switching topics a little bit.
51:11
So you have a business partner in Odyssey Ventures, you have a few siblings, as far as I'm aware.
51:18
You're the oldest of a pretty large group.
51:22
You and I have been business partners now for over 12 years.
51:29
Many people out there maybe have a business partner or think about having a business partner.
51:34
What do you think, and I'm not just asking about me, but in your relationships with business partners, what's the keys to success?
51:42
Maybe one or two, and what are the one or two, I guess, challenges or things you've experienced that people should watch out for?
51:53
Well, always meet them at the bar.
51:55
Yeah.
51:57
I find that things tend to go better that way, generally.
52:02
I mean, the funniest thing is I met Toby because I was pitching him whisky fun.
52:06
Right, okay, so at least whisky was involved in that too.
52:09
Yeah, and he's still a big whisky lover, so there you go.
52:13
So meeting people at a bar is actually the key, the way to go.
52:16
That's helpful, okay, anything else?
52:19
No, I think it is down to any relationships, right?
52:22
You know, including marriage, it's about communication, holding space for each other.
52:26
You know, we're going to go through different challenges or we're going to have to, there are going to be ups and downs in our personal life as well, and just be understanding, right?
52:36
I think maybe because I have a lot of siblings and actually I've always loved to work in a pack and not by myself.
52:44
Yeah, that's true.
52:46
So I always find it very comforting to have somebody, and I think it is important to choose your business partner because you're technically married to them at work, right?
52:54
So yeah, will you be fighting sometimes because you have different opinions?
52:59
Absolutely.
53:00
Yeah, we've had ups and downs over the years.
53:02
But it's never personal, right?
53:04
Like you want the best for the business, right?
53:07
Even if you encounter a point where you were like, I don't see eye to eye, let's talk it out.
53:12
If sometimes they take time and be okay with that time and hold space for each other, things get emotional, but.
53:19
Yeah, I think something key you said, there's whole space for each other.
53:21
So I would agree with that.
53:23
I think we don't know what the other person is going through until you ask, until you sit down.
53:27
I think sometimes texting, which is generally what we do at best voice notes, sometimes can easily get misconstrued or information left out.
53:36
I know we had that happen last year, right?
53:39
It was just some miscommunication over things, the way things were communicated.
53:43
So wherever possible, sit down, talk it out, if you can face to face or at least over Zoom or whatever.
53:49
Because I think holding that space, and I guess if I can add to that, holding judgment.
53:53
Yes.
53:54
Until you've heard the story, don't go in with this person is wrong because of this and this person is right because of this, but be open-minded to like, okay, look, we have this clearly disagreement.
54:06
Let me hear that side of the coin or that side of view before making that judgment.
54:11
And how can we, and again, at the end of the day, how can we try to achieve what we're trying to achieve together, right?
54:17
At the end of the day, that's always what is bringing people together.
54:22
And make no assumption.
54:24
Don't ever make assumptions.
54:25
Yes, absolutely.
54:27
Well, as always, the whisky's never done.
54:32
Mine is almost, and the conversation's never finished.
54:36
So I would love to continue this, of course, but I think we've come to a good ending place.
54:41
And thank you so much for the time and for being my business partner and friend for over 12 years, which I appreciate so, so much.
54:50
This is our first episode.
54:51
So it's the first time we're doing this, but we are gonna start this tradition where we have every single guest sign their name on a glass.
54:59
We're gonna keep it up here as a memento of every single episode that we record.
55:04
So if you don't mind, please sign your name on the glass.
55:07
On the glass.
55:08
On the glass itself, nice and big.
55:10
And then we will have, and this officially marks the first episode, if that works.
55:17
And if it doesn't, then we're gonna have to do that again.
55:22
Oh my God, it doesn't work.
55:24
Nope.
55:25
Okay, should have tested that.
55:27
So the first.
55:28
First ever Whiskey Unfinished episode.
55:32
And I have a special.
55:34
There we go.
55:35
Cheers, so long.
55:37
Cheers.