Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Frazer Gregory and Simon Hart about their choice of Genesis of the Daleks (4/6)

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Talks to Frazer Gregory and Simon Hart about their choice of Genesis of the Daleks (4/6) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:33
  I'm so drunk. Today, the hamster pot is ended
• 0:44
  consumed in a fires of War but from its ashes were rise and new
• 0:50
  part, the Supreme Perrault, the ultimate podcast in the universe
• 0:55
  that are scishow. You are insane.
• 1:00
  Simon. Sorry.
• 1:02
  Besides I have a supposed to be introducing a podcast.
• 1:05
  Wasn't, I'm so sorry. Welcome back to a hamster with a
• 1:08
  blunt, penknife the Doctor Who Ansari podcasts are yours.
• 1:13
  Nobody bleep. Oh, Cassie sighs.
• 1:15
  I'm not surprised you getting delusions of grandeur as if I
• 1:19
  would come and this is yours. Well, yes it is.
• 1:26
  So we're here for part 4 of Genesis of the Daleks.
• 1:29
  We've had a little pause in between just a few hours.
• 1:33
  It's yeah. So we also have lunch.
• 1:40
  Bradley tried to remember what we've said before.
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  So if there's any repeats, that's our fault.
• 1:44
  I'm so sorry I've heard it. So I'll just say no, you said
• 1:47
  that already, all right, we'll just say that's a Fraser.
• 1:50
  Every time he says something catches bugger, is anyone
• 2:03
  mentioned that Davos is a dictator?
• 2:05
  Yes, no, no. I don't think so, it's sure he's
• 2:09
  a scientist. First, I don't think he is, but
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  I'll find some way of saying that one into them, stop it.
• 2:15
  So slide it in honestly. Sorry God, I think when we left
• 2:21
  the doctor he was being electrocuted.
• 2:25
  That's right. We chose.
• 2:26
  Well, we were so busy. Having a conversation that we
• 2:29
  missing anything. I do like how it ended.
• 2:32
  Yeah, well that's because it's the wrong Cliffhanger, isn't it?
• 2:35
  What it is, what about that? It's the wrong.
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  Yeah. Well, we name three potential
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  Cliffhangers davros ranting about Daleks.
• 2:47
  Yeah. And that we got.
• 2:49
  And I said, Harry and Sarah in there, which was first one from
• 2:54
  the I was calling the tape version because that was what I
• 2:57
  had, but the the narrated audio. But I think if you all like a
• 3:02
  smart member of the audience, you know, the the danger in the
• 3:07
  Cliffhanger isn't the doctor being electrocuted, which is
• 3:09
  well, played and well done. It's the doctor can't go and
• 3:13
  save Sarah and Harry, who my we didn't shop.
• 3:18
  Exactly. He's yeah, he's been
• 3:19
  electrocuted. So he's he's not going to be in
• 3:22
  time to say stop the rocket now is he so He's trying to
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  jeopardize it at the point of the rocket.
• 3:30
  I think that's what I'm trying to say yet.
• 3:33
  And yeah and then Something's Happened to him and it's all
• 3:36
  going to go wrong. What a complete, side note, Tom
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  Baker does pain exceedingly, well, doesn't he?
• 3:43
  Okay. Yes, he plays.
• 3:44
  He plays be like, remember the bit in Paris of ours where he
• 3:47
  walks into the tube and the green light hits him.
• 3:50
  He's writhing about and the fleet does all of that, really,
• 3:52
  really? Yeah.
• 3:53
  And I'm the Scott when he touches the skull in image of
• 3:57
  the fender. This is the point where I still
• 4:01
  played it for real, you know. Hmm.
• 4:04
  Well, he's only 5 stories in history, a lot to sort of thing
• 4:12
  over the edge yet. So, this is the point where he
• 4:14
  doesn't know if he's going to be a success.
• 4:17
  That's right. Yes, this is it as nothing but
• 4:20
  did talk about this thing with that.
• 4:21
  He's he's, you know, playing it because you want the job, you
• 4:26
  know? It's not, he hasn't got that
• 4:27
  sort of like I am the doctor I am.
• 4:29
  The star of the show you can't do without me sort of vibe going
• 4:32
  on. He is, you know, walked off a
• 4:34
  building site into a television studio and he is giving it
• 4:37
  everything he can to make it a success in.
• 4:40
  Keep this keep this as a regular or irregular and play because he
• 4:43
  can't believe his luck. Yeah.
• 4:44
  But at this point, he's landed one of the biggest Parts in
• 4:48
  television. He's basically pretty much an
• 4:52
  unknown. I mean, he done done.
• 4:54
  A few films had been Rasputin, which was his big role.
• 4:57
  He's just got a Sinbad film which Barry and Terrence I went
• 5:00
  to see at the cinema but he's a bit part actor in other things.
• 5:04
  He's not ever been a leading man and then suddenly he's propelled
• 5:09
  into this huge Saturday Night. Roll doesn't quite know what,
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  he's letting himself in for, but suddenly realizes he's got the
• 5:18
  role of his lifetime. There's a wonderful picture of
• 5:21
  him. Isn't there with the fag hanging
• 5:23
  out of his mouth on the building site with all the other
• 5:26
  laborers? And that's basically the life he
• 5:28
  was living For he was handing, you know and it's a respectable
• 5:32
  enough job but it is what he wants to be doing.
• 5:36
  No. He wants to be doctor who he is
• 5:40
  dr. T didn't know.
• 5:42
  Should we watch him being Doctor?
• 5:43
  Who and fabulous suppose. We better had us.
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  Should we see him doing a really good demonstration of pain?
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  Let's do it. Don't want this.
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  Go on. Then right then I will count us
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  in in five, four, three, two, one, go.
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  See I would know nothing about pain so I, you know, I like her.
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  I'm gonna go there. I can see phrase already, give
• 6:08
  me eyes, but see the Brigadier gift coming into the Brigadeiro
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  and you're my angel of, that'll do it.
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  I will, if I get one of those a day, you know, I'm are winning
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  at life. Okay, I've got a question for
• 6:21
  both. You going straight sewed for of
• 6:24
  Genesis of the Daleks because 4 is generally speaking in the Tom
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  Baker era Where We Are. Keep it out of the story.
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  It's the climax generally speaking.
• 6:34
  Five times out of six. That is the case.
• 6:38
  Is this story justifiably six parts Long.
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  Although thing, there's many that are is this one of them
• 6:48
  Yeah, I think so. I'm Although there are many
• 6:54
  versions of this story and you can find to in the blue current
• 6:58
  Blu-ray set. So you can see the original and
• 7:01
  I cut down repeat version. Although there's lots, you can
• 7:06
  cut out to sort of get it down to the Bare Bones.
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  I mean, the the audio version got it down to an hour and you
• 7:13
  didn't miss anything really but you miss the detail and those
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  quiet scenes and some of those Sort of subplots that you might
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  not see otherwise so you lose what you have to lose something.
• 7:31
  So I think this one really justifies a six-part length but
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  you've Razr M. Yeah, I think, in terms of the
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  story itself, the story is very much done by the end of this
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  episode. I think, you know, in fact it's
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  probably done by the end of the scene.
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  You could, you know what? Yeah, you put them back with
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  you. Put the doctor back with Harry
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  and Sarah, you give them a taming the course will enough.
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  You don't really miss anything else in terms of story from.
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  Probably the middle of episode 4 to the end, but you have a trade
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  off then. So if you could have you cut
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  this down to four parts, you do not get, probably the best
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  things about the story, which are coming up in a sword 5 and
• 8:14
  episode 6. So again, it's that trade-off.
• 8:18
  It's what you lose, I've said this a few times.
• 8:21
  Now if you're going to cut something, if you're going to
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  say a six part of his too long, tell me what you're going to cut
• 8:27
  in this one. Now that, I mean, I think what
• 8:30
  happens in this story I said it earlier in this commentary.
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  Is the the scale of the story starts big it gets smaller and
• 8:37
  smaller and smaller. Yes.
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  And the thought of the momentum of the story, is it getting more
• 8:42
  claustrophobic? Until we're just in one room
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  with Hand for the characters and that's the fate of this planet
• 8:51
  either Garlic's, you know, and that's absolutely it shouldn't
• 8:54
  be as gripping as it is AB. So you've been coming episode 6
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  but just this scene, this scene is brilliant.
• 9:02
  This is davros taking control because he's seizing it now and
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  we get the first great. Dalek extermination.
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  Oh my God, has someone please say this line?
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  Please Vengeance begin, but a death, for the archetype.
• 9:17
  Later, the file, spy drama, his death.
• 9:29
  This is how you do it. Terrified.
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  You know, they've got the arms in front of their eyes to Shield
• 9:50
  themselves from the darks. They are selling this but what I
• 9:53
  love is just a word that the scene starts with the door slide
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  and open. And the first thing you see of
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  the Dalek is its shadow on the wall, anything?
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  The donít do that quite a few times as well.
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  It's you know, the oncoming evil.
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  Mmm. And then and this is where that
• 10:13
  Ross moves to dictator neuron. Scientist.
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  Oh, I think you'll find Simon, this is where davros moves from
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  dictator to megalomaniac. Oh, okay, yeah, that is to take
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  that. This is where, you know, and
• 10:32
  he's probably, you know, five steps down that road anyway,
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  because what is he doing? He's wiped out his entire race
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  of people purely because someone was going to tell them to stop
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  an experiment, how many, like frying your toys out of the
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  pram? And it just the beginning.
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  Yeah, absolutely. And what's going to come back to
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  town? Other will because look at them
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  now just you know we've taught them selling pain.
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  Just look at them selling absolute broken and his friend
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  flushed. Yeah.
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  You know, and he's just, he's faced.
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  It's just so drawn and a blank and Ah that's a great line, as
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  well as he said to two dear friends of mine, I sent them
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  into that Holocaust. Yeah, that's a marvelous line
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  out this character here better yet.
• 11:19
  I mean, it's not the most thankful roll.
• 11:21
  I've ever seen in Doctor Who, but she sells it brilliantly.
• 11:24
  She does basically her role in. This is obviously, she looks
• 11:28
  like the head of the rebellion and at the end she's the one
• 11:31
  person that's constantly going. We're going to blow him up.
• 11:34
  We get no. Oh just wait a minute.
• 11:35
  We're going to blow them up and then just two more minutes.
• 11:38
  Yeah. It keeps well that for quite a
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  while but she's really good. Harriet Philbin is really nice
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  in this role. I see you know or else I'll she
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  is 7 episode and she is in Redemption.
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  Yes with Yeah, cassia from keeper.
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  Drunken, that's it. They play those two robots.
• 11:56
  We're not robots. Are like but then, well, the
• 11:58
  kind of yet. They're very robotic.
• 12:02
  This is brilliant and limited as well.
• 12:03
  They're all walking the Earth facing the street but it's
• 12:06
  technically that go. Whoa, and you're an adult, is
• 12:12
  come and Massacre them all. Do you know what I know is just
• 12:15
  saying? And I think if we take a good
• 12:18
  look, I said she before like the dollars can be a bit clunky
• 12:20
  directed. Actually, they can move a bit
• 12:23
  clunky as well when you watch them William Hartnell stories,
• 12:26
  you know that the operators, you can add see them jogging about
• 12:29
  it. This time, very smooth about it
• 12:31
  all win this. Yeah.
• 12:34
  Based I genuinely feel like you know machine death the gliding
• 12:39
  towards. Yeah.
• 12:40
  Yeah it's grumpy. We've got Garmin now coming to
• 12:44
  the fore Ronson's, you know, met his end.
• 12:48
  So we know need another and person on the inside.
• 12:53
  Yes, he does. He know we've been we've seen
• 12:55
  him in episode 1 but he hasn't done very much but he comes to
• 12:59
  the for now. Yeah, well if I seen him before,
• 13:02
  he's in the Twin died, Mojo always Professor.
• 13:05
  Suh based just made my bones. Rock for forgetting that sleep.
• 13:12
  Oh, Here, they come Massacre. I first one we see the no, it's
• 13:22
  not the first time we see the - it was the first time you see a
• 13:24
  ray coming out the doll. Yeah, this story is the first
• 13:27
  one. With a real yet.
• 13:28
  We look at all these bodies littering the streets.
• 13:31
  Mmm, Honestly, they really genuinely feel very deadly in
• 13:36
  this. Yeah.
• 13:38
  Well you've got to sell the Menace, haven't you?
• 13:40
  You've got to this is their their creation Story.
• 13:43
  You've got to show them as a force and show what they were
• 13:46
  capable of right from the start. Yeah they've been held back in
• 13:50
  held back and held back. You know it's more than about
• 13:53
  that Ross and the creation and now we're seeing them what
• 13:57
  happens when you let them loose. But we're not fully let loose.
• 14:00
  They are still like controlled don't genuinely do we genuinely
• 14:06
  believe that Sarah Our a date. No, I don't think so.
• 14:10
  But here we are home. We nearly 10 minutes into this
• 14:13
  episode and we haven't seen them so they're holding that back.
• 14:16
  Well, the drama is that he believes that their debt is that
• 14:19
  so it's exactly. See his reaction to it.
• 14:23
  The audience have no idea. So this they'd read the radio
• 14:25
  times this week. I guess what you think about
• 14:29
  affect their of the Dome. I think that's really nicely
• 14:33
  done. It's very simple, but it is just
• 14:37
  quite effective. It's like a balloon going down.
• 14:43
  Kind of cells that, you know, the cards have been wiped out,
• 14:45
  doesn't it? Yes. and I ask you guys a
• 14:49
  question about the Daleks, Well then how does this is pre?
• 14:55
  The Daleks isn't it? Yes, it's like way before what
• 15:00
  happens there, but what we see in the Daleks is a petrified
• 15:06
  jungle whereas that's not what we're seeing here.
• 15:08
  We're seeing a quarry and to like it, like, obviously, like,
• 15:14
  but the doll is came first or they could have segue.
• 15:18
  Effortlessly into it, but I don't really do that.
• 15:21
  Do they, and the back story that we hear in the Daleks about the
• 15:24
  dolls and all of that. That's not really.
• 15:27
  This is it? No.
• 15:29
  No. But, you know, the, the Daleks
• 15:32
  or aka the Daleks as I believe it's called now is set, you
• 15:36
  know, we're in the future from this story.
• 15:38
  So this is the beginning, you know, the thals that are left at
• 15:43
  the end of episode six like better than and Severn and The
• 15:47
  rest of them, then presumably go on to repopulate the planet a
• 15:51
  little bit and get those nutty trousers with the cutout bits in
• 15:55
  them and whatnot. While the Daleks are buried
• 15:58
  underneath their bunk at developing their city, until it
• 16:01
  eventually comes together in that story.
• 16:04
  You never resting to me. That Ione is a prequel now.
• 16:09
  Hang on and sister. No, hang on defendant, thank you
• 16:13
  very much attendant of better than and janitors is a Didn't of
• 16:18
  severing. Well, you never know bake a bit.
• 16:21
  Oh, here they are. Oh honestly feel better when
• 16:24
  Sarah and are Eternal marvelous, that that jumper you love,
• 16:29
  sorry, I love that too. We see any more massive Clans in
• 16:35
  this episode 2. We do Sarah has to be nothing so
• 16:39
  that she could be put in Peril for a bit and she just sort sort
• 16:44
  of screaming so jump back. Yes everyone.
• 16:47
  To avoid the giant clams. Matthew tell you guys, I'm in
• 16:50
  fact, allergic to Crustaceans. So, if I saw a giant clam coming
• 16:54
  for me, European trouble trouble, I'm telling ya, let's
• 16:58
  see. Oh okay.
• 17:01
  Hang on a minute. Who's what's this fellow's name?
• 17:03
  This is Carville. Carville is now plotting with
• 17:08
  neither? Is that right?
• 17:09
  Oh no, we've got a nosebleed with Garmin.
• 17:11
  Yes. And we see, we will see him
• 17:13
  again in Doctor Who in logopolis, almost we Yes, we
• 17:19
  must he's the police officer not the one who says, sir.
• 17:24
  If you want a formal arrest that's the one, how is very
• 17:28
  different in that. Hmm.
• 17:31
  But I do love this, I do love how intimate this is getting how
• 17:34
  this is now all about characterization.
• 17:36
  It's all about the kind of being trapped in this very
• 17:40
  uncomfortable situation in the past and to please us no one
• 17:43
  left alive. Yeah, no, yeah, and almost too
• 17:47
  late. The road developing a bit of a
• 17:50
  conscience and wondering if maybe they might have gone a
• 17:54
  little, let Devils go a little bit too far with this, and
• 17:57
  perhaps they ought to think about doing something about this
• 18:02
  now. Now that there's only only six
• 18:04
  men left in the whole of the corner and one woman.
• 18:08
  Oh my God, there's a woman there at all.
• 18:13
  Well, there's one on the surface, don't worry what the,
• 18:17
  she's a thought. All you can't be defiled and
• 18:19
  called it. We must keep it all it.
• 18:22
  All it race pure. Do we believe that neither has
• 18:29
  defected then I've but I always think that's a really smart bit
• 18:34
  of playing from Peter Miles because he turns on the charm
• 18:38
  and the warmth in those scenes, he starts smiling, doesn't it?
• 18:42
  Yeah. And we never see him smile.
• 18:44
  Yeah. See my question was going to be
• 18:47
  is garment the most gullible character in the entire history
• 18:51
  of Doctor Who pretty much? Yes cuz he gets taken in every
• 18:55
  time. I believe he believes.
• 18:57
  No, I don't hate any bleep stab Frost when his ultimatum to him
• 19:01
  and he still ends up exterminated by the end of it.
• 19:04
  I do love that though, the sort of the hubris of him thinking
• 19:07
  he's taken down there for us, because he's got more scientists
• 19:10
  on his side. And then in the darkness coming,
• 19:12
  just killed a lot of them. You know, if it's not too much,
• 19:16
  hummus is more naivety of thinking while the other beaten
• 19:20
  divorce, when, you know that Fosters was went to such
• 19:23
  extremes to yeah. So you just go.
• 19:26
  All right. Well, we have to maintain power
• 19:31
  and it's a bit like again. Now, Heda I just the more, I
• 19:34
  watch this, the more fascinating, and I am by Nida,
• 19:38
  why is that? Is it is big.
• 19:40
  No, it's just what? What?
• 19:42
  What does neither get out of this?
• 19:44
  You know? Now that is, oh, he's scared.
• 19:46
  I think he's scared. No.
• 19:48
  But neither is M. Dive rosters, you know, second
• 19:54
  second hand, man. We Sigma.
• 19:56
  What am I trying to say? Now you that is dove rosters
• 20:00
  right-hand, man, right-hand, man, that's it.
• 20:02
  That's the word I'm looking for, literally just a soda.
• 20:04
  That's what then, yeah, everything for divorced at Davos
• 20:10
  can't do Nader. Is Davos is confident, Nida will
• 20:14
  have that scene. You know, before where I said
• 20:18
  that, let us ask. What is the relationship between
• 20:20
  davros and nadir? But what does you know, where
• 20:25
  know what divorce is, getting out of this divorce is, you
• 20:28
  know, putting himself into these creatures.
• 20:29
  He is seeing himself and perpetuated in the Daleks and,
• 20:34
  you know, Conquering the universe and all this.
• 20:36
  But what's night? I getting out of it, we never
• 20:38
  really discover his motivation, do we?
• 20:40
  But I think that scene where they're all killed, and he's got
• 20:45
  like a psychotic gleam in his eyes, not fear its enjoyment,
• 20:50
  but I think maybe he's just an incredible fucking Latest in
• 20:55
  reality. I don't know if he was in danger
• 20:58
  going around killing, you know, like torturing people all the
• 21:01
  time. Then yeah.
• 21:01
  Fair enough. But what we see inside I wonder
• 21:06
  and this might be me reading too much into this that isn't
• 21:08
  actually there, but I wonder if they're going for, Davros being
• 21:16
  the doctors evil counterpart and equal.
• 21:20
  Then maybe neither is, is that Ross's best friend?
• 21:24
  Maybe he's his best friend from before his accident and he's
• 21:28
  just sort of stuck around with his friends and he will do
• 21:31
  anything like a militant and Judson in cursive Henry.
• 21:34
  Yeah, maybe and and maybe like the doctor and Sarah, who would
• 21:39
  Sarah would do anything for the doctor and neither would do
• 21:42
  anything for davros. I'm just thinking this on the
• 21:44
  hoof here. No.
• 21:45
  Was it was interesting there though is like my reading of
• 21:48
  that he's scared, you're reading Fraser those his right-hand man.
• 21:52
  So you're reading that he's friendship.
• 21:54
  It could be any one of those free.
• 21:56
  It's because it's not stated. No, it's the me that that's
• 21:59
  what's so fascinating about. It is because it's like, you
• 22:03
  know, I just I just can't get my heart.
• 22:04
  I can't get a handle on them. That's interesting, isn't it?
• 22:07
  Like, there's not quite enough information there.
• 22:10
  Yes. But it's slippery like that.
• 22:12
  It's but it's not that there's not enough information.
• 22:15
  And I like a one-dimensional way.
• 22:16
  I've got no sense. It's not as if he's like, just
• 22:18
  written to the point where as a while, I just don't understand.
• 22:20
  This officially is written so well in so deep.
• 22:23
  You that there is there is something there, there must be
• 22:26
  an ambiguity, there's a steel. And reason why, you know, night
• 22:31
  I would be willing to sit by and watch the Hall of the card race.
• 22:35
  Get wiped out for divorce, why you?
• 22:36
  Maybe it's like Nadine, Doris and Boris Johnson the
• 22:43
  quintessence of evil God, which ones where she just looks so
• 22:49
  him. I just love you but that's
• 22:52
  clearly a relationship here. And in like quieter moments is a
• 22:55
  wonderful moment later where neither comes in and he's really
• 22:58
  panicked and a just goes, calm yourself now you down, you know,
• 23:02
  and so I do, they're clearly. Clearly there is more to them
• 23:06
  than just henchmen and dictator. I was just talked to all over
• 23:12
  this scene with Nida and garment.
• 23:15
  Like we do. Thank you.
• 23:16
  He's so it's just the way he changes his voice from the warm
• 23:24
  friendly ingratiated voice to the really clipped my lighter
• 23:27
  tones at the end and you see that line there, that line is
• 23:32
  chilling, a little bit of brain surgery to get rid of these
• 23:36
  stupid emotions but we can still use it, which is what he's doing
• 23:40
  with the Daleks isn't it? And who Enemies.
• 23:48
  Let's say you think are fantastic dictator.
• 23:51
  So, what's the plan? That's a new position in
• 23:55
  louvain. You know, you could be the new
• 23:56
  Ian Levine of Doctor, Who fan. That's a tease you have, you
• 24:03
  know, it's not all these things are I think they don't turn the
• 24:07
  lights down. Have a nice, has got a point
• 24:10
  when they turn the lights down, this show, it automatically more
• 24:12
  atmospheric. I'll look, we're in a bloody
• 24:15
  meant ventilation shaft. Tara, Nations back all we missed
• 24:22
  the big the big Terry Nation. Now, big red button, we have a
• 24:25
  nice big red but said, ya know, we had the big metal button
• 24:28
  which always said yes, we'll come down.
• 24:30
  So I can press the button to launch the rocket which is also
• 24:33
  got a nice handy destruct button next to a Pittsburgh.
• 24:37
  Is it called self destruct in massive boners?
• 24:40
  Yeah, total distract is so awesome.
• 24:42
  That process got told to structures even bigger than
• 24:46
  self-destruction. Oh, absolutely.
• 24:48
  And you can have that's the same sort of thinking that created,
• 24:53
  you know, space medicine and all that nonsense is this, you know,
• 24:57
  people say old Terry Nation didn't write this will, of
• 24:59
  course he did. Yeah.
• 25:01
  All the clues are there. Watch this bit of direction as
• 25:04
  the camera just Glides towards Tom Baker, as he gives one big,
• 25:08
  long monologue, like man. Oh man, he can like deliver Big
• 25:12
  scenes in this kind of a yeah Baker and Maloney are a good
• 25:17
  mix. I think this is one of the
• 25:20
  directors, Tom really respects? Yeah.
• 25:26
  Thanks, you know, like a lot of people say, and I know you've
• 25:30
  argued this against this side that later on Tom Baker, saw
• 25:33
  performing, yes not acting. But this is some serious acting
• 25:39
  in the in the last episode and its actions of the point where
• 25:45
  he stopped the production and said, no, this part of the
• 25:50
  script is wrong. Like think about this?
• 25:53
  Yeah. Yeah, that's a thinking thinking
• 25:56
  actor, you know, not somebody who's just responding to a
• 25:59
  script. Yes.
• 26:01
  And I think this sort of really sets the pattern for what they
• 26:06
  do with the rest of the Hinchcliffe years.
• 26:08
  And I think they're watching Tom against one, big villain, whose
• 26:14
  well cast and well-written and realizing what they can suddenly
• 26:20
  what they can do. And so you get your Sue Tech.
• 26:23
  You get your If you follow that pattern don't like an igloo and
• 26:29
  this is really where we get to all the way sort of up to horror
• 26:33
  of fang Rock. You've got a central big villain
• 26:36
  for the doctor to have a face off against.
• 26:39
  And the story always has the moment of conversation between
• 26:44
  the doctor and the villain. Sort of from here on in really
• 26:48
  well though, I'd say that continues into the Williams.
• 26:50
  Yeah, maybe not always the villain, but they know if you
• 26:52
  bring in like a really fantastic character actor to put in Tamil
• 26:56
  behave, then magic occurs? No.
• 26:59
  But like you got Peter Jeffrey. You've got em.
• 27:02
  Yeah. Bruce purchase scaglione in.
• 27:04
  Yeah, exactly. You know, So just to pick up on
• 27:09
  that point then because obviously, you know, we've got a
• 27:11
  story which is got, you know, Bob Holmes all the way through
• 27:14
  it double acts, we've got Bobby's, we've got Grim adult
• 27:20
  themes. We've got people getting machine
• 27:22
  gun down and we've got a really strong character who's the main
• 27:27
  villain and you know bit of a disfigurement going on there and
• 27:33
  it does like you said, cast a shadow over the next series.
• 27:36
  It's very Incheol. But then at the end of the
• 27:39
  story, Peter Davison regenerates and Colin Baker, and it doesn't
• 27:42
  quite work. Ha ha ha.
• 27:47
  You did that? My question is, then what does
• 27:52
  season 13 and 14, get right? That Season, 22, gets wrong.
• 27:59
  All. And I've watched some some of
• 28:01
  time much today and there's a fair bit of disfigurement in
• 28:04
  that, you know? Yeah, yeah.
• 28:06
  I think what they get right is the doctor and companion
• 28:12
  relationship. Oh, I think I have some warmth.
• 28:18
  I think, yeah, it's not based on arguments.
• 28:20
  It's based on Mutual liking generally and leader is violent
• 28:26
  but she her and the doctor are friends.
• 28:31
  Yeah, I think it's how the doctor treats the villains as
• 28:36
  well, because he is quite kind of respectful of that.
• 28:40
  I like, is this is he certainly not where you're going, you
• 28:42
  know, nobody loves. Shh, you just figured horrible
• 28:45
  ugly, man. Off, you go down a time portal
• 28:48
  like you know, it's very low offensive and Gem Hunter.
• 28:53
  My me and over the top in time. Whereas yeah, the seams between
• 28:57
  the doctor and davros. In this there is like a mutual
• 28:59
  respect there. Despite the fact that they were
• 29:01
  on opposing sides. Yeah.
• 29:05
  Because the doctor and davros in Revelation is very different to
• 29:10
  the doctor and Bev Ross in this story.
• 29:12
  Yeah. Although, that is a pricey but
• 29:15
  it is a great confrontation between calling and Malloy, but
• 29:20
  it's very different to here. But then the doctor and davros
• 29:24
  in Destiny is very different to how it is here, as we said
• 29:28
  earlier. I think for me, one of the
• 29:33
  things is, obviously, you have which iswhat do just, what?
• 29:37
  About a lot of times now, is the relationship between the
• 29:41
  producer and the script editor is, you know, the both on the
• 29:45
  same page. Yes, you know, they are working
• 29:48
  together. Making the show that they want
• 29:50
  to make it's not, you know, one man trying to produce, you know,
• 29:55
  the script at another man, you know, you no one's doing light
• 29:58
  entertainment, want to do with gritty drama, sort of thing.
• 30:01
  Hey, I think I think quality of the writing is better as well,
• 30:06
  and it's certainly more consistent.
• 30:10
  Yeah. For that's because we've got a
• 30:13
  strong script editor, looking over it, and making it
• 30:15
  consistent as Russell and Steven and Chris will do later on.
• 30:21
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 30:23
  I don't know if I absolutely agree with that point about the
• 30:26
  writing because I think there is some good writing in 22, I feel
• 30:29
  Vengeance on viruses. Fantastic previs and I do really
• 30:32
  interesting things with that. I think revelation of the Daleks
• 30:35
  is very risky and very imaginative and kind of
• 30:40
  fabulously ghoulish. I think the two doctors has a
• 30:43
  good strong message and really strong dialogue for Al.
• 30:47
  I don't think and I think there's some shit writing in 12
• 30:50
  as well. I think some parts of oh yeah.
• 30:52
  Oh gee revenge of the sidemen is appalling, you know, on pretty
• 30:56
  much every conceivable level. But if we're highlighting like
• 31:00
  this, This story. Then.
• 31:01
  Yeah, this is streets ahead of anything.
• 31:03
  Anything in Season 22 anything in the 80s.
• 31:06
  Probably what I mean you're coming to season 13 and you've
• 31:09
  got zygons. You've got morbius, you've got
• 31:12
  seeds of doom, doom, you go in 14, you've got Deadly Assassin,
• 31:22
  you've got Wing Cheyenne, you've got robots of death, you know,
• 31:27
  these are all bangers. Hmm.
• 31:30
  You know, the Not level of excellence in Season 22 either
• 31:35
  and I think I haven't watched the interview with Michael grade
• 31:39
  yet. So I know you guys have but what
• 31:43
  I suspect is there's not the oversight of the show.
• 31:47
  If that point that the probably was at this point, I think there
• 31:52
  was some complacency yeah. On the part of the production
• 31:57
  team in Season 22, And I've just read the J&T Diaries, which was
• 32:04
  fascinating, but the amount of time, he's spending not
• 32:08
  producing Doctor Who. Yeah.
• 32:10
  And going off flying off to the States on a Friday afternoon, or
• 32:14
  a Thursday afternoon, coming back on a Sunday evening.
• 32:18
  Going straight into work on a Monday.
• 32:19
  You can't be at your best is a very telling moment in the
• 32:23
  frontier in space. Commentary where Clayton, Hitman
• 32:26
  ask, Barry, let's and Terrence Cooks.
• 32:27
  I also did you ever go down to the studio whilst, you know,
• 32:30
  they were And Terrance dicks goes, I am astonished that you
• 32:33
  are asking me this question. Like we were there from the
• 32:36
  beginning of the day to the end of the day and if anything went
• 32:39
  wrong, we were there to solve it without what the case, which int
• 32:42
  and nose. And yet, you've got someone
• 32:46
  who's taking your star out of rehearsals to go and do a better
• 32:51
  time. Yeah.
• 32:52
  You've got someone taking your star out of rehearsals to go to
• 32:55
  a convention in Atlanta. You've got someone taking your
• 33:00
  star, Our out of everything to go and do some promotion, do you
• 33:05
  know? There's a, there's a extra on
• 33:08
  the two doctors disc where you've got Collier.
• 33:11
  Sorry. Frasier Hines.
• 33:12
  A nickel, Brian filming. They stop the filming of the two
• 33:16
  doctors. So they can film an apology to a
• 33:19
  conventional audience, as to why they won't be there at the
• 33:23
  convention. And then the filming starts up.
• 33:25
  Again, imma fuck, are you doing this for the middle of a shoe?
• 33:28
  You know what? But ultimately, You know who is
• 33:31
  letting TNT get away with it? Well, they weren't.
• 33:35
  Well, there's a and Grace is in. That is so interesting.
• 33:38
  He says, basically yugos, go watch what was being produced in
• 33:42
  that period. He said that just wasn't good
• 33:44
  today. Well, I watched, I'm not sure.
• 33:46
  And that isn't great Telly. You know, he's not wrong and he
• 33:50
  freaked Jones. He came in and gave the show
• 33:55
  such a visual boost and then, because of The problems he'd had
• 34:01
  with the two directors who couldn't who gave the series
• 34:07
  style and made it different and made it stand out in his first
• 34:12
  year. They both even went over budget
• 34:14
  and time or just couldn't hack the schedule.
• 34:19
  So he then plays it safe by getting directors who he knows.
• 34:23
  We'll get it in the can because that's the only way you can make
• 34:27
  TV like this. And so, Obviously everything
• 34:32
  starts to fall down and then he starts to fall out with the
• 34:34
  people who do do, who are the standout ones?
• 34:38
  Who you're Peter, Grim raid. Yeah, as I said, Philip
• 34:44
  Hinchcliffe found directors that could deliver fantastic results
• 34:47
  and said, right? We need to try to seduce them to
• 34:51
  come back as many times as possible.
• 34:52
  So he got melodeon four or five times.
• 34:55
  He got Douglas County field as much as he could, you know,
• 34:59
  exactly. And I But Hoon.
• 35:02
  He brings back many main but he does.
• 35:04
  All right, I think hand of you but it gets it in the can and in
• 35:07
  time but then doctor who loses all these star people to Blake
• 35:11
  seven. Yeah.
• 35:13
  Because they're so good at making this kind of TV.
• 35:16
  That Blake's 7 gets them. So you lose David Maloney.
• 35:18
  You lose Chris. Belcher from behind the from the
• 35:21
  writing staff, all the directors.
• 35:24
  And so David bologna takes Roger, Mari leads with him.
• 35:27
  Who's done the star star turn. The set design.
• 35:32
  And so, you're losing all this Talent from from the show that
• 35:36
  created all this talent. And the irony is, is the
• 35:40
  complacency that J&T complains about in the latter day,
• 35:43
  Williams era is what eventually hits his own.
• 35:47
  I think, you know, the the shows built around You know, that's
• 35:52
  what of conveyor belt of talent, you know, you know, people come
• 35:55
  in and, you know, learn a trade, you know, robbing the teeth.
• 35:58
  Maybes on Doctor Who, and we look at Michael Ferguson.
• 36:03
  Yeah. Who directed, you know, three
• 36:05
  excellent stories. Plus the war machines and then
• 36:09
  went off to do EastEnders, produced EastEnders, the bill.
• 36:14
  Yeah, give us the Mitchells and you know who killed Eddie wild
• 36:17
  and all that sort of stuff, you know.
• 36:19
  And you know this is what will Your people will come in, you
• 36:23
  know, produce a couple years, move on.
• 36:25
  You know, that for me is always been one of the things that you
• 36:29
  know is a bit of a catch-22 for GNT is that he should have
• 36:33
  probably left you know after a couple of years for the sake of
• 36:39
  Reason one career more than anything you know gone off to
• 36:42
  21. Yeah yeah you can I mean it can
• 36:45
  you imagine like GNT doing something like Noel's house
• 36:47
  party? Some, this wall is element would
• 36:50
  have been, you would have been absolutely flying with that, but
• 36:53
  he didn't and he stayed with Doctor Who, you know, the
• 36:55
  Catch-22 is obviously we wouldn't have had gotten bigger
• 36:57
  one of our service to McCoy and Agriculture and all the
• 37:00
  wonderful things that came after that.
• 37:01
  But, you know, for the sake of would have had something else
• 37:04
  would add something else. Exactly, but for the sake of
• 37:08
  GNT, you think that would have been, you know, what ideal of
• 37:12
  saved him? Yeah.
• 37:14
  Potentially. Yeah, you read that book and the
• 37:17
  laughs that book. These career just goes off a
• 37:20
  cliff, it's absolutely heartbreaking and he was
• 37:22
  pitching left, right? And Center, she had so much
• 37:25
  talent and he was so ahead of his time.
• 37:27
  But I think that cancellation of Doctor Who that just marked his
• 37:31
  career and that boy, this ain't good enough and so everyone
• 37:34
  thought you weren't good enough. So anything he was trying to
• 37:38
  bring together they were just like not exactly.
• 37:40
  And I think the biggest complacency is Coming back for
• 37:46
  season 23. Yeah, which they don't know what
• 37:51
  they're doing and they haven't tried other.
• 37:53
  They fixed on this this fee, but they don't know.
• 37:59
  They've got longer time than ever before to plan it and it
• 38:02
  still falls apart at the end. And The not trying, anything
• 38:08
  new. They're not pushing any
• 38:09
  boundaries. They're pushing the boundaries
• 38:10
  with one great big model effects shop to get the season off with
• 38:15
  a bang but that's it. And I've always it's business as
• 38:21
  usual. Only it's on videotape rather
• 38:23
  than film uncie phrase. You always ask.
• 38:25
  These questions are hazards, way away from the story.
• 38:28
  That was the Genesis Genesis of the Daleks.
• 38:31
  And so, we'll hang out with ranting about the doctors.
• 38:36
  Going to tell him everything about what happened in future
• 38:39
  time. And I do need to point this out
• 38:40
  because this is the point where I give my son Nate, that's
• 38:44
  because it was his Five or six and eat come in from school one
• 38:53
  day and I, you know, put Genesis on.
• 38:55
  So I was watching this and he's coming, literally walk through
• 38:58
  the door just as davros starts running.
• 39:00
  Yeah, well, tell me you will tell me you and what's that?
• 39:05
  It's Davos Wubba and a bit chat about it and you had a few
• 39:08
  sleepless nights for the next. The next few nights and he was
• 39:12
  asking his Lords of questions about Davos which was you know,
• 39:14
  like what happened at Davos is Head.
• 39:16
  Daddy, what's that thing on there?
• 39:18
  A gift officer said all this davros what you know in it
• 39:21
  obviously just stuck, you know few seconds just really you know
• 39:25
  latched into his his subconscious and then had a
• 39:28
  massive effect on even now I was watching him Magician's.
• 39:32
  Apprentice a few year or two back and and was it really good
• 39:39
  Magician's. Apprentice is really good, which
• 39:40
  is familiar is not but Majestic Splendor self-flagellating
• 39:44
  State. What I've done is I've watched
• 39:47
  all the season 8 and So want to put a set of should watch series
• 39:49
  named never listen to people on Twitter look where it gets you,
• 39:53
  I know, but he loves, he was Googling Davos again and he
• 39:58
  loves I walked in one day and found them.
• 40:01
  It's, you know, got on the big box on our Telly in the room and
• 40:05
  he had the the rice pudding speech from remembrance playing.
• 40:08
  So he's a big tough was fun is my Luca blessing you know you
• 40:14
  know what's great about this Cliffhangers.
• 40:15
  Well it's like a is a double-edged one again.
• 40:18
  Because not only is Our Moment of peril Sarah and Harry, but
• 40:22
  it's like the implications for the future and everything we've
• 40:25
  already seen. If the doctor spills his guts
• 40:28
  and yet we know is going to spill his guts because he's not
• 40:31
  going to let his friends die. It's really great.
• 40:33
  It's a really embarrassing tension up.
• 40:36
  Because you've got davros ranting, you've got Harry and
• 40:39
  Sarah, so don't tell him. It does but it's moving up and
• 40:52
  there's no music over that scene.
• 40:54
  It's just that broth ranting. And the Machine, the sound
• 40:58
  effect of the machine rising in intensity, is screaming like a
• 41:02
  fucking Dalek exactly. He is a night before we head out
• 41:07
  because we probably should have some point.
• 41:09
  I just want to say right you made a marvelous illusion
• 41:12
  earlier that davros and neither are like, Nadine, Doris, and
• 41:19
  Boris Johnson, but actually our think that reminds me of someone
• 41:22
  else. You know with his mad
• 41:25
  xenophobic, rants. I think Darrell's is pretty
• 41:28
  Patel. Oh God, yes.
• 41:33
  Only difference is nicer and prettier.