Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #1242 - The Liking Gap

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#1242 - The Liking Gap · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:05
Speaker 1: You know, when you meet somebody and you kind of
0:08
Speaker 1: like them, you think they're really nice, but you're pretty
0:11
Speaker 1: sure that you didn't leave the best impression ever. You
0:14
Speaker 1: feel like maybe they don't really like you, and therefore
0:18
Speaker 1: the relationship, the friendship is doomed, maybe even before it started.
0:23
Speaker 1: Today we talk about your kids, their friends and how
0:26
Speaker 1: they can feel more likable based on brand new research.
0:30
Speaker 1: It's a doctor's Desk episode of the Happy Families podcast
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Speaker 1: Real Parenting Solutions every Day, Australia's most downloaded parenting podcasts.
0:38
Speaker 1: We are Justin and Kylie Colson. Kylie, there's this thing
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Speaker 1: called the liking gap. Researchers have known for years about
0:45
Speaker 1: this thing with kids as young as five as well
0:47
Speaker 1: as adults. After meeting someone for the first time, we
0:51
Speaker 1: often underestimate how much they like us. Have you ever
0:55
Speaker 1: had that happen? You're laughing like, maybe, yes, it's I
1:00
Speaker 1: have a great story, feel like an imposter that kind
1:03
Speaker 1: of thing. What's your story?
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Speaker 2: It involves your mum. The very very first time you
1:10
Speaker 2: took me home to introduce me to your parents. Yes, yes,
1:14
Speaker 2: you took me down into the backyard to meet your
1:17
Speaker 2: dad who was watching your younger twin sisters.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I have two sets of twin sisters, I mean
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Speaker 1: whole and my youngest sets twin sisters, like fifteen years
1:27
Speaker 1: younger than me.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think they were about six at the time,
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Speaker 2: and they were playing on the swing set. And so
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Speaker 2: your dad kind of he looked over, he gave me
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Speaker 2: a smile, you know, kind of wasn't interested in engaging
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Speaker 2: in any conversation. Dad, your sisters were oblivious because you know,
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Speaker 2: they were too busy playing.
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Speaker 1: And there was six.
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Speaker 2: You then took me upstairs, and your mum was in
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Speaker 2: the kitchen kind of organizing dinner, and she was putting
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Speaker 2: plates together for you and I, And the next thing,
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Speaker 2: your sisters ran up the stairs and literally jumped on
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Speaker 2: my lap while I was sitting on the table and
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Speaker 2: couldn't get enough of me in that moment. I don't
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Speaker 2: remember any of this, but your mom, well, she obviously
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Speaker 2: acknowledged me and she said hello. But she sat down
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Speaker 2: next to us at the table and proceeded to have
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Speaker 2: a conversation with you that I would have felt was
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Speaker 2: a bit too personal for someone you've never met before.
2:17
Speaker 2: And I didn't know where to be in the room.
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Speaker 1: My head, my mum doesn't have filters. Let's be honest.
2:22
Speaker 1: If she needs to say it, she needs to say it.
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Speaker 2: She wanted to know what you were going to do
2:25
Speaker 2: with the rest of your life. Like literally, this was
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Speaker 2: an urgent conversation that couldn't wait until I was not there.
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Speaker 1: So did she not say anything like Hi, Kylie, tell
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Speaker 1: me about yourself.
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Speaker 2: No, she did launch it. She launched into this conversation
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Speaker 2: with you, and I sat there the whole time thinking
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Speaker 2: she hates me, She absolutely hates me. It wasn't until
2:46
Speaker 2: later that she shared with me that the reason she
2:48
Speaker 2: had that conversation with you was she actually was pretty
2:51
Speaker 2: confident that I was the one.
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Speaker 1: Right, she didn't talk to you, You just walked into
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Speaker 1: the house, But you're the one.
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Speaker 2: I'm the one. She felt really good about me, and
3:00
Speaker 2: she just felt like she didn't have to put him
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Speaker 2: on any pretense, that she could just be her and
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Speaker 2: she didn't need to worry about me because I was
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Speaker 2: going to be a part of the family sooner or later.
3:10
Speaker 1: Welcome to the family. So I'm hearing this story and
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Speaker 1: we've gone so far from where we're supposed to be
3:15
Speaker 1: going with the doctor's desk research. But I don't know
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Speaker 1: much of this story, even though I apparently was. There
3:21
Speaker 1: might be worth highlighting that within two weeks of that
3:26
Speaker 1: conversation happening, I had proposed, like we only dated for
3:31
Speaker 1: two and a half weeks and then we had like
3:33
Speaker 1: an eleven month engagement while I was in mad Isa
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Speaker 1: and you were in Brisbane and we got married. It's
3:39
Speaker 1: been twenty seven and a half, twenty eight years, Like,
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Speaker 1: how awesome is that? But the liking gap was there,
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Speaker 1: so you've walked out thinking.
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Speaker 2: I honestly thought she makes me hated, sheeds me? How
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Speaker 2: was I just disliked? I actually thought she hated I
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Speaker 2: don't know how.
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Speaker 1: I don't know this story. How long was it between
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Speaker 1: you having that interaction with my mom and you discovering
4:01
Speaker 1: that she didn't hate you at all and that she
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Speaker 1: felt so comfortable that she felt like she could talk
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Speaker 1: to you about it.
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Speaker 2: I don't think we had that conversation un till well
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Speaker 2: and truly after you and I were married. But obviously
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Speaker 2: I knew she didn't hate me one sure?
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Speaker 1: Sure? I mean maybe she was writing history. Was she
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Speaker 1: even aware that you're in the room? Is what I'm thinking. Anyway,
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Speaker 1: let's talk about this clearly, you've experienced the liking gap.
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Speaker 1: You've had a first impression with somebody, think that they
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Speaker 1: don't like you very much, and they actually like you
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Speaker 1: quite a lot. Some researchers at the University of Toronto,
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Speaker 1: I've done this really cool study, HESSEGANI to Sarah and
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Speaker 1: colleagues found hints as to why some people experience bigger
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Speaker 1: liking gaps than others. And no surprise, it has to
4:39
Speaker 1: do with your mental health. It has to do with
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Speaker 1: your self esteem, it has to do with your anxiety.
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Speaker 1: But basically here's what they found. They did three different groups,
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Speaker 1: three different studies, if you will. The first group, eight
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Speaker 1: hundred and sixty three strangers. They do this round robin
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Speaker 1: getting to know you session. Each chat lasts two or
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Speaker 1: three minutes, so it's kind of like speed dating, I guess,
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Speaker 1: but without the romantic overtures. And they had to also
5:04
Speaker 1: fill in a scale that assessed their self esteem, their
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Speaker 1: social anxiety, their loneliness, their life satisfaction, their perceptions of
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Speaker 1: having positive relationships with other people, and their neuroticism. Second group,
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Speaker 1: three hundred and seventy eight university students. They've had conversations
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Speaker 1: with a series of conversation partners about anything they wanted
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Speaker 1: to talk about for twelve minutes, and those students were
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Speaker 1: just asked to report on their self esteem. That was
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Speaker 1: all they were measured on. Third group. I know there's
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Speaker 1: a lot of information, but it'll all make sense in
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Speaker 1: just a sick Third group, four hundred and sixty five
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Speaker 1: US based adults have some online digital chats for twenty
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Speaker 1: five minutes with a stranger, just one conversation, and they're
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Speaker 1: completing measures of neuroticism and loneliness after each conversation. Regardless
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Speaker 1: of which group, every participant had to rate how much
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Speaker 1: they liked their conversation partner and how much they thought
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Speaker 1: their conversation partner liked them. That way, they get to
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Speaker 1: the analysis gets to look at, well what was your perception,
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Speaker 1: what was theirs? And how much do they marry up?
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Speaker 1: Is there a liking gap? And they also had to
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Speaker 1: just say, well, this is how much I liked the meeting.
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Speaker 1: And what the research has found, consistent with previous data,
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Speaker 1: is that the overwhelming majority of participants felt as though
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Speaker 1: their conversation partners liked them much less than they actually did.
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Speaker 1: They had the liking gap that you've just described. When
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Speaker 1: it comes to came to that first conversation that you
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Speaker 1: had with my mum.
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Speaker 2: It's interesting to me. I know we're talking about like
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Speaker 2: first time conversations.
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Speaker 1: Correct.
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Speaker 2: I look at even some of the close relationships I
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Speaker 2: have in my life, and I have been blown away
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Speaker 2: at times when they've actually expressed how deeply they feel
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Speaker 2: about me. I know that they're my friend, I know
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Speaker 2: that they love and appreciate me, but the times that
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Speaker 2: they've actually shared specifically how they feel has just it's
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Speaker 2: blown me away because I would never have assumed the
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Speaker 2: depth to their feelings.
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Speaker 1: As you're saying that, you've just prompted something really big
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Speaker 1: for me. I think this is super important that I
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Speaker 1: hadn't planned on mentioning in this pod. But when I
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Speaker 1: write Misconnection, that book about teenage girls, I ask girls
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Speaker 1: what made their lives the best, and they said friends.
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Speaker 1: And then I said what makes your life the worst,
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Speaker 1: and they said friends. But have listened to some of
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Speaker 1: these quotes. I've just dragged it up as you were
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Speaker 1: sharing precisely that story. This is what some of the
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Speaker 1: girls said to me, and I quote word perfect quote,
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Speaker 1: none of my friends really like me. I worry that
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Speaker 1: people don't like me how my close friends actually see me.
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Speaker 1: I have a massive fear that everyone around me is
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Speaker 1: just putting up with me until I leave them alone.
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Speaker 1: This one said, the thing I worry about most is
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Speaker 1: that by the end of high school, people are still
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Speaker 1: going to think of me as a nerd with no
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Speaker 1: boyfriend and no social life. This worries me because what
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Speaker 1: if it's true? And so what you can hear is
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Speaker 1: this desperation like do In fact, one girl said, here's
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Speaker 1: another quote fitting in. I really love my current group
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Speaker 1: of friends, but sometimes I feel like I just generally
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Speaker 1: don't fit in. In other words, while this study and
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Speaker 1: most research on the liking gap refers to initial introduction relationships,
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Speaker 1: this is ongoing, right. I mean, even as an adult,
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Speaker 1: do you I know I do. Sometimes I think I
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Speaker 1: wonder if my friends actually like me as much as
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Speaker 1: I like them, because I'm so grateful for my friends,
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Speaker 1: but I'm the one that often makes the calls. They're
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Speaker 1: not calling me, Does that mean that they don't like
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Speaker 1: me as much? Yeah, there's this liking gap. So after
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Speaker 1: the break, because we've talked way too long, because I
8:34
Speaker 1: got carried away with what the girls are saying. After
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Speaker 1: the break, we're going to talk about two, three, maybe
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Speaker 1: four things that you can do as a parent if
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Speaker 1: your kids are feeling insecure about their relationships and feel
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Speaker 1: like they're not necessarily well liked, whether it's meaning new
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Speaker 1: people or in their current friendship group, to make the
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Speaker 1: relationship feel safer and stronger. Olie the liking gap. The
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Speaker 1: data is there, the results are in. We feel like
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Speaker 1: people don't like us as much as we hope that
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Speaker 1: they like us, and not as much as we like them.
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Speaker 1: And it seems that it's mostly not true, like most
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Speaker 1: people like us more than we think, not less. Most
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Speaker 1: people accept us more than we think, not less. Obviously
9:18
Speaker 1: for being bullied, you're hanging around with the wrong people.
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Speaker 1: There's need to change things up. But this matters when
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Speaker 1: you listen to the details of that study. Does anything
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Speaker 1: stand out to you, like, what would you say to
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Speaker 1: parents based on what this liking gap research seems to indicate.
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Speaker 2: I think back to that first meeting with your mum
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Speaker 2: and the things that we've already discussed.
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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, this sounds like this was so pivotal in
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Speaker 1: your life and I don't even remember it. I feel
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Speaker 1: so bad. Anyway, back to the.
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Speaker 2: Wainy, but you were getting a hammering from her probably,
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Speaker 2: And you've acknowledged the importance of self esteem and confidence.
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Speaker 2: And I think back to who I was back then.
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Speaker 2: I'd grown up with that generation where kids were supposed
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Speaker 2: to be seen, not heard, and so I never really
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Speaker 2: felt like I had a voice. Had I have been
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Speaker 2: someone who was confident in myself and knowing your mum
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Speaker 2: as well as I do now, she would have relished
10:15
Speaker 2: and absolutely she would have literally drawn every last breath
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Speaker 2: out of me when it came to what my opinion
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Speaker 2: was based on your conversation with you.
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Speaker 1: Is that person.
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Speaker 2: She would have wanted it. But I didn't have the
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Speaker 2: confidence or the self esteem to believe that I had
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Speaker 2: anything worthwhile to share.
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Speaker 1: And there it is again, there's the self esteem issue,
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Speaker 1: the anxiety issue, The liking gap exists because of what's
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Speaker 1: going on in our heads. It's like imposter syndrome in relationships,
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Speaker 1: that's right.
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Speaker 2: And so for me in that moment, I just wanted
10:44
Speaker 2: to dig a big hole and bury myself in it, like,
10:46
Speaker 2: just get me away from this. And so when I
10:52
Speaker 2: think about what this study is sharing, what it's gifting
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Speaker 2: us is if parents, if we can give our kids
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Speaker 2: are voice. This is really tricky, right, This is really
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Speaker 2: tricky because we really love it when the kids just
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Speaker 2: do what we ask and they don't question us, and
11:08
Speaker 2: they don't you know, talk back to us. But they
11:12
Speaker 2: need to know that their voice matters. They need to
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Speaker 2: know that they actually have amazing things to contribute to
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Speaker 2: the world, and when they feel comfortable to share that,
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Speaker 2: this is less of a problem.
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Speaker 1: Okay, I've got a quick comment to make about what
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Speaker 1: you've just said, and then I've got three quick takeout
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Speaker 1: messages from the study, from my mind, from the Doctor's Mind.
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Speaker 1: You don't like Doctor's Desk episodes. You get frustrated when
11:38
Speaker 1: we have to talk about research science, and look at
11:40
Speaker 1: you go. You are all in I'm just so excited
11:43
Speaker 1: about this. You say, yeah, all right, here are my
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Speaker 1: three takeovers. Oh you've got more. Sorry, Well, you have
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Speaker 1: a voice, so use it.
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Speaker 2: I think. The other one that's really really important is
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Speaker 2: to assume positive.
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Speaker 1: Intent, right right right.
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Speaker 2: We are constant assuming the negative when we think about
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Speaker 2: other people. I mustn't like me. I I was so silly.
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Speaker 2: I can't believe I said that.
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Speaker 1: We get so in our heads and it's all about us. Essentially,
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Speaker 1: we are the center of our own universe.
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Speaker 2: Yes, about us, but if we would give positive intent
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Speaker 2: to other people and give them the benefit of the doubt,
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Speaker 2: that would make such a difference to our interactions on
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Speaker 2: a day to day basis.
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Speaker 1: We're ultrasocial. We're supposed to make friends, We're supposed to
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Speaker 1: connect with people. It's how we're built, it's how we're designed,
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Speaker 1: and I just love that. Okay, may I now share
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Speaker 1: my useful take homes from this study for parents if
12:37
Speaker 1: their kids are struggling with friends, or if you've got
12:39
Speaker 1: more go through it. Okay, here we go. I need
12:42
Speaker 1: to do this quickly because we're almost out of time.
12:44
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for taking over my doctor's desk episode.
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Speaker 1: Here's the bottom line from the study. From my perspective,
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Speaker 1: your child walks away from interactions feeling like they're bombed,
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Speaker 1: when in reality, they've probably scored and they don't even
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Speaker 1: know it. And if they have loads of esteem, or
13:00
Speaker 1: if they have any sort of anxiety or anything like that,
13:04
Speaker 1: that's only going to be amplified and exacerbated. So we
13:06
Speaker 1: need to teach our kids one simple truth, and that
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Speaker 1: is that the person they've just met probably likes them
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Speaker 1: a lot more, not less than they imagine. And if
13:13
Speaker 1: they're in a long term relationship with with a group
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Speaker 1: of friends like the girls that I read out from
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Speaker 1: my Misconnection book, then that is only more the case. Now,
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Speaker 1: is it true that there are sometimes ruffling of friendship feathers? Yeah,
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Speaker 1: of course, But that doesn't mean that they don't like you.
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Speaker 1: That just means that relationships can be tricky sometimes, and
13:31
Speaker 1: we repair and then we rupture, and then we repair
13:33
Speaker 1: and then we rupture, and that's the nature of relationships.
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Speaker 2: But I think it's really important to highlight within that
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Speaker 2: that a lack of self confidence and self esteem play
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Speaker 2: a huge part in the ruffling of feathers more times
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Speaker 2: than not.
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Speaker 1: Well, And that brings me to the second takeaway from
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Speaker 1: the study, and that is that your child's insecurity is
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Speaker 1: probably the problem rather than their actual likability. Your child
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Speaker 1: is likable, but their insecurity makes them feel like they
13:56
Speaker 1: are not likable. It's the insecurity that makes them feel
13:59
Speaker 1: like they're unlovable. The math doesn't lie here. When we
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Speaker 1: teach them that friendship anxiety is a software bug rather
14:08
Speaker 1: than a hardware problem, what they then know is, oh okay,
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Speaker 1: so people can like me, people do like me. I'm
14:15
Speaker 1: the one that's getting anxious about this. There's not really
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Speaker 1: a problem here at all, I think. I mean, what
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Speaker 1: a confidence booster. It's hard to argue with the voice
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Speaker 1: in your head that's saying the opposite, but the data
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Speaker 1: bears it out. Third one, I think that we need
14:29
Speaker 1: to teach our kids to focus on the quality of
14:30
Speaker 1: the interaction rather than obsessing over this invisible scoreboard in
14:34
Speaker 1: their head. When they're fully present in conversations, when they're engaged,
14:37
Speaker 1: when they're asking questions, when they're listening, when they're sharing ideas,
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Speaker 1: the anxiety inducing mental math becomes completely irrelevant. They can
14:46
Speaker 1: make friends, they're likable, they're worthy, and that I think
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Speaker 1: this is a study that gives us great hope if
14:52
Speaker 1: we can just help our children to understand that they're
14:55
Speaker 1: in their heads too much. But if they can just
14:56
Speaker 1: accept that because they're having an interaction with somebody and
14:59
Speaker 1: because it's ended on a positive note, it's probably gone, well,
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Speaker 1: that should be enough. So that's my doctor's desk, that's
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Speaker 1: our doctor's desk. We will link to the study in
15:09
Speaker 1: the show notes for those who are interested in the
15:10
Speaker 1: social psychology of the likability gap. I think it's fascinating stuff.
15:15
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening. The Happy Families podcast is
15:17
Speaker 1: produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media. For more information
15:20
Speaker 1: and more resources to make your family happy at visit
15:23
Speaker 1: us at happy families dot com dot au