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What Reform Plans to Do If It Takes Over the UK with Richard Tice · Merryn Talks Money

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  Speaker 1: now at Bloomberg dot com Slash podcast offer. Welcome to
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  Speaker 1: Men Talks Money. The podcast image. If you know the markets,
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  Speaker 1: Explain the markets. I'm Marin' Sunset Web Today I am
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  Speaker 1: speaking with Richard Tice, British businessman and deputy leader of
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  Speaker 1: the pole leading party Reform UK. Given that the top
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  Speaker 1: story in the UK at the moment is whether or
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  Speaker 1: not Kaostarmer will be Prime Minister for much longer. We
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  Speaker 1: thought it would make sense to speak to someone crafting
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  Speaker 1: the policies of the opposition party leading in the polls
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  Speaker 1: right now. So I spoke to Richard about what Reform
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: UK would do for the UK economy if the party
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  Speaker 1: was elected into government. What are the party's actual policies
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  Speaker 1: and do they have real plans to see those policies through? Richard,
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  Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us today.
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  Speaker 2: Great pleasure, good to be with you. It's an exciting time.
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  Speaker 1: Oh isn't it just now? Listen, We are speaking just
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: as it becomes increasingly clear that time might be relatively
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: short for Kiir Starmer. How long do you think.
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  Speaker 2: He's got He'll be lucky to have weeks, frankly, but
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  Speaker 2: there's lots of speculation that it's just a matter of days.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, his sort of key prop has has resigned,
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  Speaker 2: and information is leaking out more and more about the
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  Speaker 2: about the role that mandlssoon played in the heart of Starmer's.
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  Speaker 2: Starmer's regime essentially not only in the run up to
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  Speaker 2: being US ambassador, but also in the run up to
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  Speaker 2: the general election. What role did he play in appointing ministers?
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  Speaker 2: Was he actually at the heart of government?
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  Speaker 1: Well, do you know what everyone else is going to
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  Speaker 1: be talking about that? So we're not going to We're
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  Speaker 1: going to talk about about you, which I'm sure you
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  Speaker 1: would prefer anyway. Now all change, It's entirely possible. There
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: are various different moving parts all over the place. It's
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  Speaker 1: entirely possible we'll end up with an election much sooner
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  Speaker 1: than many would have expected. And I suppose the real
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  Speaker 1: question then is how ready is reform that should it
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  Speaker 1: come to that? Should you? Should you possibly win an
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  Speaker 1: election sooner than you would expect to, How ready are you?
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  Speaker 1: We talk a lot about how Britain is broken. Everyone
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  Speaker 1: knows what the problems are, or everyone has some kind
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  Speaker 1: of level of consensus about what the main problems are
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  Speaker 1: in the UK, and everyone also now has a feeling
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  Speaker 1: that they are close to unfixable. So to start to govern,
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  Speaker 1: the first thing that you would need to do is
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  Speaker 1: to completely fixed reform, overhaul the civil service and management
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  Speaker 1: in the public sector across the board in order to
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  Speaker 1: actually get any of your policies through in the amount
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  Speaker 1: of time that reflects the level of patients that electorates
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  Speaker 1: have these days. How would that work?
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  Speaker 2: Well, we've been talking for months about the likelihood of
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  Speaker 2: an early general election. We've been saying from sort of
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  Speaker 2: autumn twenty seven onwards, and so we're sort of preparing ourselves,
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  Speaker 2: and we've been saying the reason that it's most likely
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: to be triggered as some form of financial crisis. Everything
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  Speaker 2: since then, all of the data is bad. The boring
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  Speaker 2: levels are through the roof, there's no growth, job numbers
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  Speaker 2: are dire, and then you've got a management crisis at
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  Speaker 2: the top of governments. So in terms of the likelihood
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  Speaker 2: of an early election, that has increased dramatically. Whether it's
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  Speaker 2: likely this year in twenty twenty six that still would
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  Speaker 2: be relatively low odds, but the likely of a twenty
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  Speaker 2: twenty seven election has soared dramatically. We will be ready,
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  Speaker 2: we're getting ready, and there's sort of lots of speculation,
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  Speaker 2: but we'll be confirming sort of likely shadow cabinet roles
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  Speaker 2: over the coming next few weeks. And there's a huge
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  Speaker 2: amount going on. I've got seven working groups in different
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  Speaker 2: areas in financial markets. I gave a speech at Bloomberg
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  Speaker 2: in November about setting up working groups in financial governance
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  Speaker 2: and regulation, in pensions and savings, SME, growth, capital and taxation.
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  Speaker 2: So there's lots of work going on through twenty twenty
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  Speaker 2: six to ensure that we are ready for government as
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  Speaker 2: and when an election comes.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, everything you've just said, that's about policies. That's about
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  Speaker 1: what do we want to do, what would be the
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  Speaker 1: right thing to do? And I think you know, we'll
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  Speaker 1: move on to that in a minute. But what I'm
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  Speaker 1: really trying to get to is how do you get
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  Speaker 1: those policies through it? Because government after government after government
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  Speaker 1: arrives says we're going to do this, this is how
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  Speaker 1: it's going to be. Difference and it never is.
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  Speaker 2: But you see the difference is that recently governments have
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  Speaker 2: been run by what I would call ppe sort of
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  Speaker 2: policy wonks and special advisors as opposed to serious business
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  Speaker 2: people with a track record of running businesses, growing businesses,
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  Speaker 2: making money for sharholders and investors. We're different. We're just tougher,
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  Speaker 2: we're stronger, and we've got a much clearer principled view
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  Speaker 2: in our gut, in our heart as to what needs
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  Speaker 2: to be on to create growth. And that's the difference.
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  Speaker 2: And bluntly as we're getting scripts. With running twelve councils,
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  Speaker 2: we're cutting our teeth. Is it easy, No, we're not
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  Speaker 2: saying it is. Does it require courage and some resiliency, yes,
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  Speaker 2: and we've got that in spade. And I think the establishment,
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  Speaker 2: the civil service actually quietly many of them know that
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  Speaker 2: Britain is broken and would welcome some strong, determined ministers
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  Speaker 2: coming in who who remember that key maxim In the
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  Speaker 2: corporate world, at the end of the day, advisors, advised,
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  Speaker 2: directors decide, and in politics, advisors advice and ministers should decide,
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  Speaker 2: not advisers. And we understand that, and I think that
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  Speaker 2: would be a sizeable shift at the end of the day.
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  Speaker 2: The biggest risk in life is never taking one risk.
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  Speaker 2: Calculated and then smartly monitored is a good thing. That's
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  Speaker 2: how you create value, that's how you create growth, and
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  Speaker 2: that's what we need to do to run a country.
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  Speaker 1: And you've begun to learn how hard that is in
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  Speaker 1: your local council experiences we have.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, we're seeing how some officers have been very professional,
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  Speaker 2: very supportive, and other officers less so. And we spot
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  Speaker 2: that in a sense, that's a good way of cutting
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  Speaker 2: our teeth and I'm the head of DOGE across those councils,
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  Speaker 2: so Ilia's every week closely with our leaders and in
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  Speaker 2: a sense that is giving us some really good experiences
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  Speaker 2: to the does that don'ts, the tips and so on.
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  Speaker 2: And obviously we've got May elections across much of England,
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  Speaker 2: Wales and Scotland. On the seventh of May. We'll have
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  Speaker 2: thousands of seats and we're going to win lots more councils.
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  Speaker 1: Going back to the impatience of electorates theasters, you don't
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  Speaker 1: get much time if there were an election, if you're
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  Speaker 1: in pretty quickly, what would be the one or two
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  Speaker 1: things that you could do immediately immediate implementation that would
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  Speaker 1: show change, what could really work fast?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, So we would immediately serve notice to leave the
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  Speaker 2: European Convention on Human Rights, would scrap the Human Rights Act,
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: that would stop the law fair, stop the blockages. We
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  Speaker 2: would scrap net Stupid zero, which is the most catastrophic
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  Speaker 2: policy of financial self harm voluntarily imposed on the nation
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  Speaker 2: by Westminster politicians. And that would be a seismic shift
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  Speaker 2: in the way politics has been done for the last
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  Speaker 2: decade and more. And then what that would do is
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  Speaker 2: enable energy bills to come down rapidly, and we would
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  Speaker 2: cut significant other wasteful government spending.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, can I interrupt you there and go back to
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  Speaker 1: net zero and how it would cut bills quickly, because
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  Speaker 1: of course, all the contracts that exist are legally permanent, right,
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  Speaker 1: They're not going away. So all these all the CFD payments, etc.
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  Speaker 1: They're set in stone. They're expensive butt intone.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, But what's not set in stone is all of
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  Speaker 2: the carbon taxes and levies that form the majority now
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  Speaker 2: of people's domestic energy, be they gas or electric. And
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  Speaker 2: we would be I'm already talking to which I've spoken
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  Speaker 2: about openly oil and gas producers and explorers, about completely
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: changing the regime so that they are welcome as opposed
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  Speaker 2: to treated as pariahs. But in terms of what individuals
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  Speaker 2: voters would see, they would see a change their energy bills,
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  Speaker 2: they would see a seismic shift in the way that
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  Speaker 2: we are running things. And as I say, we would
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  Speaker 2: cut wasteful spending immediately, cut daft regulations. Then you can
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  Speaker 2: afform what I call performance related tax cuts. Look, people
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  Speaker 2: will understand that you can't. You know, Rome's not built
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  Speaker 2: in a day. You can't fix everything overnight, but the
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  Speaker 2: direction of travel, the big shift where you're not in
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  Speaker 2: hock to a an overseas court with biased judges, that
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  Speaker 2: would be significant. Our policies on immigration would I think
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  Speaker 2: also be a significant shift in terms of restricting legal
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  Speaker 2: immigration to a zero number and ensuring that actually we
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  Speaker 2: do have a proper detain and deport policy immediately. That
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  Speaker 2: dramatically reduces the attractiveness of illegally breaking into our country
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  Speaker 2: across the English Channel.
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  Speaker 1: And canceling the i LR right, So not all residency
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  Speaker 1: as an automatic path assistance correct, thank you, Thank you
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  Speaker 1: bring the welfare build down significantly.
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  Speaker 2: Well, we would building the welfare build down by basically
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  Speaker 2: not paying welfare to any overseas nationals. I mean the
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  Speaker 2: whole point about immigration as people come to the UK
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  Speaker 2: to work, well, the clues in the name works, so
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  Speaker 2: we wouldn't be preparing welfare on that. And we've got
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  Speaker 2: to motivate work. We're going to make work pay.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: Back to net zero? Can you give me any sense?
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  Speaker 1: And we're obsessed with energy prices on this podcast, obsessed
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  Speaker 1: with them because we believe, as I think everybody high. Well,
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  Speaker 1: I think it's just that we believe that all economic activity, indeed,
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  Speaker 1: all economic activity of any kind is energy transformed. Right,
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  Speaker 1: So the cheaper energy is the more economic activity you get.
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  Speaker 1: We're very worried about UK manufacturing, chemicals, etcetera, etcetera. So
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  Speaker 1: how fast and how much can you give me a
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  Speaker 1: percentage number for a small chemicals factory that might have
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  Speaker 1: to shut down soon? What percentage can would scrapping net
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  Speaker 1: zero get their bill down over a one or two
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  Speaker 1: year period.
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  Speaker 2: Over a two year period, I think they would see
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  Speaker 2: it come down by give or take a third. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: just as a without question, and I will be and
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  Speaker 2: we will be totally focused on that, because the simple
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  Speaker 2: maxim is you cannot be a rich nation without cheap energy.
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  Speaker 2: And there's a reason the US is growing at three
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  Speaker 2: and a half to four per er uin wear flatlining.
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  Speaker 2: We've got the most expensive energy electricity in the world.
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: And let's just go back twenty years ago, no one
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: was talking about the price of electricity or that we
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: might have rationing or blackouts. Now it's one of the
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: first things on the agenda in any boardroom. And you know,
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  Speaker 2: we've also got to look at protecting British industry. I'll
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: be talking a lot about that over the coming months.
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: And you know, is it really a good idea to
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: allow the UK automotive scene to be completely and utterly
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  Speaker 2: dominated by Chinese evs, heavily subsidized and put at risk
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  Speaker 2: half a million jobs in the automotive sector in the UK.
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  Speaker 2: I would suggest not.
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  Speaker 1: There is a lot of talk from people who support
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: on it zero strongly about the number of jobs that
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  Speaker 1: will be lost across the board where you to cancel
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: on at zero, But I suspect you and say that
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  Speaker 1: you'll be easily bounced outfactory.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, the destruction of manufacturing jobs is way, way
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: more than the paucity of green jobs that are supposedly
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: being created. And you know they're desperate when they have
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: to redesignate plumbers and carpenters as green jobs in order
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: to try and boost the numbers. I mean, the thing is,
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: it's just ridiculous. And do you know I travel around
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: the world quite a bit, and many other countries are
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: laughing at our naive stupidity as our politicians bang on
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: about being a world leader in net zero, and they say,
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: thanks very much, we'll take your jobs, will take you
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: your money, and we'll sell you some lots of gas
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: and oil. Thank you.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: Can I move on to asking about taxes. I we
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: know you're a believer in the laugh of curve and
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: I think we are here too. We've even had other
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: laffer on the podcast and done a great pot with
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: him about things. And I know that there are quite
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: a lot of tax cuts that you have discussed and
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: getting rid of inheritance tax, all this kind of thing.
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: But can I just move you over to Scotland where
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: there is a plan I understand it too. Were reformed
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: to come into power in Scotland a practice coming up
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: to cut income tax in Scotland below levels of England.
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  Speaker 1: Is that right?
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  Speaker 2: Well, Scotland has a freedom to adjustice income tax, which
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  Speaker 2: the SMP used to raise income tax above the rest
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: of the UK. Look, competition is a good thing. All
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: of your listeners I suspect believe in that, and tax
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: competition is also a good thing. So why not have
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: that competitive edge and tension great if it forces people
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: to stop wasting taxpayers cash on daft schemes, whether it's
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: in Scotland or elsewhere in the UK, fantastic policies will emerge.
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: But we believe in competition.
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: But in Scotland, the only way probably for a form
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: to get the ability to test that policy, of which
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: I thoroughly approved. By the way, I've always thought that
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: the Scotland could become the richest country or nation whatever
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: you like to call it in Europe extremely quickly by
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: slashing income tax well below that in the rest of
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: the U. Okay, But the only way for Reform to
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: get into a position where they could make that happen,
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: We're probably to make a deal with the TOY is
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: to stop the SMP getting in again on a relatively
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: small percentage of the vote.
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: Well, the truth is the tours are disappearing in Scotland.
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: In fact, post May the seventh, they're not really going
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: to be a national party. And so our message to
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: voters if you want to stop the SMP, the only
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: party to vote for is Reform. We're polling second in
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: Scotland already. And when I went to Scotland about a
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: year ago now and the friendly Scottish media, I said,
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: what's your policy? I said, drill Scotland, Drill, and they
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: said you can't say that. That's outrageous, And turns out
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: it's actually rather popular, rather popular thing. The good common
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: sense of the Scottish voters are polling sword and we've
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: been on an upward trend ever since, and very very
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: nearly one the Hamilton MSP bar election a few months ago.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: But are you really a unionist party or a separatist party?
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: Think when I listen to Nagel Faras talking about Scotland
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: a little wobbly on this quite keen to see the
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: end of the Barnet formula and maybe full full fysical devolution.
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: But there's also sometimes a hint there that he is
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: not really interested in whether Scotland stay is part of
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: the UK or not.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: That's nonsense. We are absolutely one hundred and twenty percent
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: a unionist party, full throated, and there is no better
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: flag than the Union flag. It's as simple as that,
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: and we are to use that old expression we are
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: stronger together as a United Kingdom.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: Okay, let's stick with full throat and support for various things.
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: What about the UK stock market, which is our other
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: major obsession here. We worry about its shrinkage, we worry
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: about its low valuations. We worry about the loss of
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: the extraordinary financial network that we have in London, en
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: indeed in Edinburgh in that slowly wasting away as the
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: stock market wastes away. So one thing that we are
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: very keen to see happen almost immediately on any competent
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: government getting into power would be the abolition in full
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: stamp duty. I wondered where you stood on that.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: Well, we're very focused on the UK stock market. It's
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: dear to our hearts and you'll be hearing a lot
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: more from me about that in the coming months of that,
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: I can assure you. And that's one of the reasons.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: Why, oh, tell us something now I'm running short.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: Let me just say that lots of people have made
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: making representations about things, for example, like tax relief on
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: cash isers, about why pension funds are investing so little
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: in the UK market, Why are IPOs down eighty percent
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: in the last decade. Why is the FCA impinging on
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: so many areas that it doesn't need to. Why is
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: our sme growth capitals sort of in around two three
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: and four disappearing elsewhere? Why's the aim got the fewest
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: number of companies in twenty five years? Listed on all
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: of these things, we need to make it simpler, easier
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: and more attractive for people to want to stay here,
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: so I'm very very focused on it. Indeed, I understand
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: the point about stamp. All I would gently say is
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: that what we can't do. You know, we absolutely buy
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: into the laugh of curve and all of that, but
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: we can't do a LIZT trust. So we have to show.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: There's not much money. There's not much money. We have
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: to do great week signal.
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: So what the markets would like is for us to
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: prove that we're cutting wasteful spending on daft projects like
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: next Super Zero that waste thirty billion a year and
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: the like. And for example, the Bank of England should
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: not be paying interest on the voluntary QE reserves, it
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: shouldn't be doing quantitive tighting again that would save twenty
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: billion plus or minus. So you know, if we prove
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: the savings cut daft regulations, then we can show this
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: is the direction of travel of tax cuts. And there's
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: lots of people saying you should cut this, that and
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: the other.
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: Would you bring back the brittier and mandate pension funds
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: to invest a certain amount of their aum in the
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: UK stock market?
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: I think serious questions have to be asked, why are
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: we giving tax relief on people to have cash ices
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: with some three hundred and fifty billion pounds worth of
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: cash sitting there not helping UK companies grow and invest
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: and have additional equity resources. So those are all the
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: questions we're well aware of and looking at as we speak.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: Do you ever get any donations in bitcoin? I see,
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: because you know one of your policies to make the
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: UK a crypto hub would great God, but I.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: Don't agree with it. It will the City of London
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: has a long track record of being financial innovators, and
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: crypto and bitcoin is obviously the main one is something
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: to be you know, let's bring on shore mate, let's
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: make it easy, cheap, transparent, tax attractive and oh yes.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: I want to pick you up on tax attractive on
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: this one. So there is an idea in your policies
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: that you would put a lower capital gains rate capital
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: tax capital gain tax rate.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: On crypto as opposed to it as opposed to it
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: being offshore where everything's hidden with no transparency and people
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: worry about other issues.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: But why lower on that than on other things? That
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: doesn't really make any sense. I mean, bitcoin is not
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: a productive asseid why would you charge a lower rate
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: of tax? On that, then you would, for example, on
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: a productive activity.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: Well I didn't say that we didn't want lower rates
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: on productive activity. Maybe I want lower rates on everything.
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: Great bier growth. It's just a case of timing and scale.
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: But also we want to attract and retain and develop
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: people and brilliant talent here as opposed to losing it
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: to other parts of the world.
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: Bitcoin Reserve fund Well.
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: Just patience is a virtue. I know you like to
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: sort of reveal everything, but patient, I'm.
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: Just reading the policies.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: I'm just reading the policy. Thank Heaven, someone does.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: Brittain. We have to stop there. Thank you so much
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: for joining us today. Thank you, thanks for listening to
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: this week's Marin Talks Money. If you like us, show, rate, review,
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and keep sending
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: questions or comments. Some mirror Money at Bloomberg dot net.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: You can also follow me and John on Twitter or x.
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: I'm at Marinus w and John is John Underscore Steppe.
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: This episode was hosted by Me Maren zums Atworth. It
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: was produced by some Mesadi and Moses and sound designed
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: by Blake Maples and Aaron Casper. Special thanks to Richard Tice,