Latest / The Pluralist Podcast - with Orly Erez-Likhovski and Rabbi Josh Weinberg / When Fear and Hate Rise: How we Confront Racism Together
Transcript
- Orly Erez Likhovski: Hi and welcome to the Pluralist podcast from both sides of the ocean. And today we're going to talk fighting racism on both sides of the ocean. It is still war here Israel. The war with Iran is in full force. Me and Samah just came back running to the shelter yet again. There's a lot of uncertainty, a lot of chaos. chaotic reality around us. But nevertheless, with everything that is going on, it was important for us to stop for a minute and mention a very important date. 21st is International Day for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination. This date the massacre in 1916 in Sharpeville, South Africa, when police killed protesters that demonstrated against the apartheid regime. March 21st also ⁓ with the spring equinox. ⁓ reminds us the moment when the day and night are equal and our ⁓ for equality. And for us in the reform movement, both in Israel and the US and worldwide, confronting racism year round is only a social or political issue, it is our core Jewish value. And it grows from the belief that every human being is created, bezelem Elohim, in the image of God. And therefore, all of us should be given a treatment of respect and equality. Josh Weinberg: Orly, wonderful to be with you as always. And ⁓ can't ignore the fact that ⁓ sitting there in shelters and we're sitting here far away. And that's part of the conversation that we're having all the time. And so let's take a minute to hope that this will soon pass and that you won't have to keep running back and forth to the shelters. ⁓ ⁓ work. of both the Union for Reform Judaism, the Reform Movement here in North America, and of course, the Israel Religious Action Center. I'm so glad to be joined by Samah Darwish, the Director of the Racism Crisis Center at IRAC and my good friend and colleague Yolanda Savage-Narva for the Union for Reform Judaism, who leads our racial justice and inclusion and serves as the Vice President for Racial Equity, Diversity and Inclusion. Welcome you both. Thank you so much for being with us. Orly Erez Likhovski: we are really blessed to have both of you with us to very impressive women leadership positions. ⁓ And want to start asking you, to tell us a little bit about the Racism Crisis Center that you have been directing at IRAC for the past five years. Can you share with us and our listeners a bit about what the Crisis Center is doing in the different arenas that you're working? Samah Darwish: the was established in 2017 ⁓ and we across ⁓ three strategic to combat racism and promote equality in Israel. The first one policy change. We actively participate in the Knesset committees, we are submitting position papers and influence ⁓ legalisation address systematic And the second part is the legal and emotional support. are providing a holistic safety net for victims of racism, including legal aid and mental support for cases of discrimination in services, a racism profiling, physical assault and incitement. And the third part is public awareness through lectures and workshop and campaigns in the social media. Josh Weinberg: seems like there's lack of work in just you described seems like a tremendous amount of work for one center. I'm thinking about the context of having a Jewish state and, of course, the relationship with ⁓ non-Jews. And how you the basic challenges that you face? could be very long discussion, but if you would give us sort of the high level principle of the challenges that you're facing, I think that would help our listeners understand ⁓ the of all of your work. Samah Darwish: I can relate to two challenges. of them is ⁓ this ⁓ government we are witnessing a shift where racism has moved from the fingers to the mainstream of political discourse. So it's giving when elected officials use language, it's effectively, sorry, legitimize violence and discrimination on the ground and we are forcing to invest significant resources into protecting fundamental rights that were once considered self-evident ⁓ and we have a big that people are not complaining. A lot of them have On one hand, they don't have faith in the system that will be really nice with them or equal them, and they are they don't have ⁓ the sources and power and the time sometimes because there are like marginalized communities more and they need to work so they don't have the resources to invest in the legal system. So this is part of the challenges we have a lot more. Josh Weinberg: So it seems like they're really challenges on different levels, right? It's both getting people to understand that they have somewhere to turn to voice their complaints and to get help with that. And also just recognizing that there are cases of racial discrimination out there that need to be addressed. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, it's. Yeah, I think the challenges are really unbelievable always, especially at this time. I do, obviously that's where the Racism Crisis Center steps in, right? So we are lending a hand and offering the assistance and the services you mentioned before, free of charge to the people who turn to us. And we have more and more people turning to us as the situation gets worse when we're talking about the fight against racism. But we do have a lot of success stories. We have a lot of people who turn to us and we took their case to court and won, which a difference both for them and I think in general for the public as creating the turns against more and more people acting in a racist and discriminatory manner. ⁓ And I to ask you, Samah, if you could share with us one or two cases that you're proud of the Racism Crisis Center took upon ⁓ and won and was success. Samah Darwish: can share two cases that we dealt with them lately. One of them is the class action ⁓ lawsuit challenging Gett Taxi that they a service that called Gett Mehadrin service, which discriminate against Arab drivers. Orly Erez Likhovski: GETT is sort of the Uber. It's like the equivalent Uber here in Israel, a cab app that allows people to order cabs and discriminated against Arab Palestinian cab drivers. Samah Darwish: so we represent ⁓ more ⁓ than 2500 Palestinian drivers and we won this case. first thing and the important thing is that we ⁓ dismiss this ⁓ and it longer exists. And the other one that we give them ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: compensation. Compensation. Yeah, we should say that the service was aimed to ⁓ operate the cabs which do not drive on Shabbat, but it was just a disguise to offer cab drivers or cabs that would be driven just by Jewish cab drivers, thereby excluding Palestinian cab drivers from East Jerusalem. It operated only in Jerusalem and we... Samah Darwish: between compensation. And then. Orly Erez Likhovski: As you said, we managed to basically cancel this racist service and it was like a huge, huge Josh Weinberg: No, it was really hurting the livelihood of many Arab Palestinian taxi drivers who, especially in Jerusalem. And just to put this in American context, like for, or put it in a broader context for people to understand, those who don't travel on Shabbat don't travel on Shabbat. So why do they care if the taxi that they're riding at the moment drives on Shabbat or doesn't drive on Shabbat? know, if you're in America, you don't. Orly Erez Likhovski: you Josh Weinberg: get in an Uber and say if that Uber happens to drive or not drive on Shabbat, it's absolutely absurd to think about this, that you would only hire a taxi that does not drive on Shabbat. It's so transparent that this is discrimination and racism that they don't want to get into an Arab or a Palestinian cab, right? Am I right in my assessment here? Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, completely. Completely. Samah Darwish: Yes. Completely right. Yes. the other case, was last year, it was a student that went to a lab to fix his tablet. And ⁓ was an Arab student and the told him, you should go away. You like a bomber And I don't want here. I will call the police. And he was very insulted because just he wanted just to get service, you know, he's a student, he needed his tablet to study and he came to us and we against lab and we won and judge in this case ⁓ apologized to this Arab student and he said that she is very, very sorry that he had to face this discrimination in just in a brutal way he was so happy because in the first time he said I ⁓ that I have been heard and I've been seen and he really, really happy. And these is sometimes maybe you can say it's small wins but it's really mean a lot for one person and when other people hear about it and They hear that we are succeeding, it encourages them to come and complain and also it gives them the faith in the that there can be justice Josh Weinberg: In Hebrew we would say about that that mitzvah, that one one ⁓ could lead to another one and potentially ⁓ other people see it. Orly Erez Likhovski: Okay. Yeah, yeah, and I think, and I think as Samah says, it goes both ways. So it helps the individual person. It helps other understand that you can bring the cases to court. And it also creates detterance the part of the people who are discriminated against to understand that they are going to pay a price for this and that maybe would prevent them from doing so in the future. So it really goes both ways. Josh Weinberg: Both as an encouragement and a deterrent, saying. Orly Erez Likhovski: Right, exactly. Josh Weinberg: Yolanda, let me bring you into the conversation here. Welcome. Wonderful to you and thank you for being with us. As you're listening to Samah and to Orly explain about their work, what resonates with you in sort of the American Jewish context? YSN: Thank you. So great question. ⁓ I just want to start by saying thank you so much for having me. I think that this conversation is a global conversation. We see a lot of threads and through lines that are happening globally around conversations around race and racism and how that impacts the broader community as well as our ⁓ own Jewish community. I fascinated about something that Samah said about the fingers of racism, it in the beginning and with the government ⁓ that's charge, you see things kind of spilling out into the mainstream. And for sure, see that happening, I think, in the United States ⁓ and in American around racism. see it happening in ways that are so much more overt ⁓ direct, ⁓ people are not afraid ⁓ stand on ⁓ platform of racism anymore ⁓ justify it ⁓ a way of making things better for people who have been marginalized. I think what I'm seeing is this kind of turning ⁓ the page in a way. that's using racism and the reverse in the opposite way. I find that really scary because I think for some people who have had to sort of kind of divide power ⁓ ⁓ create for that haven't been heard in the past or to create spaces for people to just feel like they belong and feel like they have human and civil rights. In some cases, people are feeling like they're being left out or they have been left out and this is their opportunity to actually change the tide, make things better for those who have been left out of the conversations. So it's fascinating and it's also... you know, scary to see the parallels and see how things are showing up in a global context and then their ⁓ in ⁓ different as well. Josh Weinberg: I think that we could probably point to many difficult stories and many hard stories and ⁓ signs of like, that there's in our communities even in our Jewish communities and synagogues and congregations, et cetera. But let ask something from the positive of view. Are there areas that you can point to where we're actually making real progress in addressing racism or combating racism. YSN: Deep breath. I mean, yes. Yes, and ⁓ I think just having a conversation about how the impact of racism shows up is progress. And so long, ⁓ think people been able to hide behind ideology, to move an agenda forward. And it's out in the open now that Orly Erez Likhovski: You YSN: that racism is very much alive, both individual racism. I think a lot of what we're describing here is also like a political or a systematic institutional racism where, you know, in the United States with the erasure of diversity, equity and inclusion, it doesn't say. That's racism, but that's the elimination of policies that have protected people and provided opportunities for people who been marginalized and discriminated against historically. So you have these pieces happening. And at the same time, you still have people who are fighting for justice and who are standing up against racism and racist policies. I think the progress has taken place. ⁓ you know, racism or addressing racism is something that kind of ebbs and flows throughout history. At times you see great progress and then when you see that progress, you see a backlash. And I think what we're seeing right now is the backlash to the progress that has been made to date. Josh Weinberg: So like two steps forward and one step back, you're saying? YSN: Yeah, yeah, maybe, maybe, maybe three steps forward, five back. It feels that way, but we're still moving in the right direction. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Josh Weinberg: Okay. Bye. Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: I really want to relate to what you say, Yolanda because I really connect to that. think, first of all, the similarities, like you said, between our two countries are unbelievable. And I think on the one hand, you see really, and Samah mentioned, it's also the normalization and the legitimization of racism and extremism in general in public discourse. But I think as you say, on the other hand, it just makes it clearer what we should do, right? What any person who believes or herself to be liberal. should do because things are so at our face, right? I mean, it's so blunt that it's clear that we must answer, give our answer and stand very firm on our values and not just stay silent on the side and just say, ⁓ let's wait and it will just get over with. I mean, it's clear that we have to stand up for our values. And I think in this sense, it really crystallizes the mission. And I think that's really, that's progress, right? Because people are more aware of the problem and the need to address it. So I think in this sense it does. ⁓ really bring us a little bit closer to where we want to be. And I want to ask you, do you feel or how do you think it actually looks like in practice for ⁓ institution, for a Jewish institution to actually address in a serious manner racism and inclusion? Like how do you see ⁓ institution should act in order to really address those issues? YSN: Yeah, question because I think there's a theoretical approach and then there's a practical approach. What are the steps that need to be put in place in order to actually, you know, move the to a place where people from all racial backgrounds feel they belong and this is a space for them. ⁓ I think the thing to note is that racism is going to pop up. We're not going to be able to eliminate ⁓ it. But what we want to be able to do is to be able to address it when it happens and have an opportunity to really unpack what that means. And so there's an individual journey, I think, that has to be taken where people who are part of an institution or an organization are doing their own internal work. They have to do the internal work in with the more ⁓ kind more collective policy work. So individuals have to understand that we are living in systems of racism, that racism is a constructed ideology, that it's been socially constructed to create the haves and the have-nots. And really kind of unpacking and understanding how ⁓ of us, regardless of our racial identity, actually exacerbate in some way is really important. And that you're not good. if you don't and you're not bad if you do. It is just the way things have been created and the systems that we operate in, regardless of if we're conscious about it or not. Oftentimes people are unconscious about how they're upholding racism or racist ideas. So that's one piece really focusing on individuals and individual training and learning and accountability around it. And then I think the second piece, which Both of these are a long arc. It's not gonna happen overnight. It's to continue to look at the collective piece, how we're addressing policies, how we're looking at changing the overall culture of an organization. And that includes things like the language we use, the images that we have of people who are a part of our community. It means making sure that we are creating. a container that's multiracial and diverse in so many different ways. So are kind of ⁓ more higher level strategies that have to be put in place. But I think the big answer to it is that it's an individual journey and it's a collective journey all at the same time. And we'll backtrack sometimes. Sometimes you'll look up and say, this is hard. We're wrestling right now. And sometimes in that space, that twilight space where we're wrestling is where we're actually growing so we can leap forward. Josh Weinberg: Yolanda, I think you painted a really helpful picture of the high level issue and how we're approaching it. And I loved what you said about the unconscious and the systemic issues versus the work to be done. And ⁓ think about that a lot because ⁓ think most people, I look myself and I look in the mirror and I say, okay, I'm not racist. I don't see myself as racist and I may Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Josh Weinberg: have the unconscious or the sort of implicit bias, let's say, of within a system that I don't see the bigger picture when I'm just looking at my own actions. that something that you think resonates with others? ⁓ How do you? Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Josh Weinberg: would ⁓ help us through that, you know, the dissonance YSN: ⁓ yeah, mean, Josh, I think you are, you know, so smart to articulate it that way because I would say 95 % of us do not look in the mirror and say, ⁓ say that, say that again, Josh. Josh Weinberg: That's the nicest thing you've ever said to me. Orly Erez Likhovski: You Josh Weinberg: ⁓ That's the nicest thing you've ever said to me. YSN: Come on now. So I think that, you know, the majority of us don't look in the mirror and say, ⁓ my goodness, I'm a racist. I have a lot of work to do. But then when we walk out the door and an example, you run into someone who, you you perceive as someone could be threatening to you because of their racial identity. That's a racist. ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: you YSN: mindset, that's a racist ideology, that's something that's been planted in our brains. And that could happen to any one of us, regardless of what our own racial identity is. We have been, you know, we have been nurtured and raised in racist systems and mindsets. And so I think it's so important for us to know that we have those tendencies because of the seeds and continuous you know, messages that feeding those seeds day, all day long. ⁓ where training comes in for us is to be able to unpack that, unpack, you know, what we're seeing and hearing from how we are reacting and interacting with people that we encounter on a daily basis. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, think it's really true. I mean, this whole talk about raising public awareness and raising your own awareness of your own misconceptions and prejudice. And Samah, I'd really like to hear your take on this, on work that we have to do on raising awareness on the policy level and ⁓ the public in general, which we do a lot, right? We're a lot of our campaigns, but also around like the... ⁓ self-awareness of people and I think somehow we have this discussions right when we are planning like a short video or a campaign on how to get people to understand like there are others and that maybe they have misconceptions about them and to change them. Samah Darwish: Well, yes, we use the tools of workshop and lectures ⁓ campaign to do it. A lot of the times we are trying, ⁓ know, you can ⁓ break prejudice by just meeting the other, knowing the other. ⁓ have a lot of separation ⁓ in Israel. So a lot of people don't know each other, they like Arab Palestinian people just hearing about Jewish and a lot of Jewish just hearing about Arab and they never meet. But when I go to a workshop to meet Jewish people and suddenly they see an Arab Palestinian woman that work with the Israeli Jews that working for equality and working for a better society and justice is really like they, it's below their mind. They say, what? Seriously? Jewish people want to help us? And they say, yes, they are my partners. And also when I go to meet Jewish people and for them, it's the first time that they meet Arab Palestinian and they say, what? You are knowing our holidays, you are knowing our language. And it's really surprising. And suddenly when we meet in the personal level, it's breaks stereotypes. And we it also in our campaigns. Sometimes we break prejudice in campaigns, like trying to show the side that people don't know about the other. It can't be just not in Arab and Jewish people. It's also relevant to Russians in the country, even if they are Jews and also Ethiopian people even if they are Jews, but it's a ⁓ minorities that usually in the smallest society ⁓ within the bigger society. it's really, ⁓ I like to call ⁓ that we are building So yes, it's very important meet. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, completely. I think, Samah, you've been doing a lot of coexistence and shared society work and to bring people together and to create this bridge, as you say, to actually really break this seeing the person as an other, right? A different person that you can't relate to. And it's very easy for you to portray a person as your enemy if you know them. And once you get to know some people, it really breaks. those divisions that you said, that I think it's extremely important in Israeli society. And we should say that alongside the racism crisis center, are doing the reform movement in Israel is doing a lot of shared society work, especially in the last few years, because as the barriers grow higher, the need to break them and really to bring people together a difference. And I think the workshops that you've mentioned ⁓ extremely important. I know that you're working with a lot of students who volunteer. in the racism crisis center, maybe we can say I'm worried about their experience because I think that's also very important for them, Palestinian students who are volunteering in the racism crisis center. Samah Darwish: Yes, we are working with Hebrew University in Jerusalem and in year we recruit Palestinian students and they are a driving force within the center because training experience of ⁓ exclusion into ⁓ meaningful activism they are they ⁓ provide essential ⁓ and cultural sensitivity, ensuring our services ⁓ reach the communities that needed them most. And their partnership ⁓ with Jewish organization proves that Jewish and Arab can work together in solidarity to support one another. And we are collaborating ⁓ the Hebrew University we are... This year we were accepted also that they can get points ⁓ to volunteer. Yes, the credit. Orly Erez Likhovski: credits like credits credits right yeah Josh Weinberg: They can get class credits, academic credits, right? Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Samah Darwish: Yes, and I remember before five years when I started to run the center, I was going to a lot of programs and ⁓ a ⁓ ⁓ the were really intimidated to come and today I don't have the capacity to accept because there are a lot of them that want to... to join. it's really, it's really make my heart a joyful and I'm very happy to have the students because they are important. And why I think it's very important because we, as I mentioned before, we are dealing with the legal system and also in the Knesset and the parliament and it's in the policy. And I really believe in the connection on the field. So when we are work with these students, we are connecting to the field and to the policy level, so it's really making the picture whole and it's really a great... Josh Weinberg: cooperation. Yeah. But Samah what you just said is actually a really big deal. So you said five years ago when you began, students were hesitant or fearful or even intimidated to join in. And now you have a waiting list of more people than you can even involve. Right. That's amazing. And ⁓ and of what would you I think the example of the university is important because what people may not be aware of is that Orly Erez Likhovski: a cooperation Yeah. ⁓ Samah Darwish: corporations. I Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's amazing. Samah Darwish: Yeah, yeah. Josh Weinberg: the university and the higher education system in Israel is a place where people really do encounter one another, whereas may have lived in their own bubble, in their own communities for their entire lives and not really having a chance to meet each other or interact. And the is a really important place for that to an important setting. ⁓ What are some places in Israeli society where that happens, where you see sort of a ⁓ forced interaction, where people have the chance to really see other beyond some of stereotypes that they may have grown up with. Samah Darwish: want to say something about it because it's really a challenge. ⁓ you say, a lot of them ⁓ living in their bubble, in their society, and then they meet in the university and the university expects them suddenly to be friends and it's not working like this. So it's very important ⁓ have a of programs that are really campaigning this. Josh Weinberg: It doesn't happen automatically, right? Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yeah. Samah Darwish: this to students, I can share that in other ⁓ my job, ⁓ facilitate the groups of the Arab and Jewish that meet together and talk about the conflict and about the narratives and et cetera, and meeting each other. And it's really a great step ⁓ and... when they knowing each other, have the courage also to join an organization like this and to volunteer So it's very, very important. So except of the universities, you can ⁓ see people ⁓ work meet together. I can share that my best friend, I met her when we ⁓ were and we work in a restaurant. And she was from Tel Aviv and she moved to Jerusalem because she accepted to the Hebrew University. And I was a law student and we work in the restaurant together. And she told me that she never met an Arab before. it was the place... Orly Erez Likhovski: She's Jewish. Let's just mention she's Jewish. Yeah, your friend is Jewish. Yeah. Samah Darwish: Yes, she is Jewish, yes. And are now 10 years friends. And she me in this restaurant, now she is a nurse. So in the hospital, she is working with the Arab colleagues, ⁓ and she not feeling ⁓ intimidated, and is making more of Arab friends. So this is really important to meet Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, and I think really you mentioned the health system. Obviously, Josh, to your question, the health system is really one of the places where actually Jews and Arabs meet and where there are a lot of coexistence on all the levels. So we see a lot of Jews and Arabs working as nurses, as doctors, as head of departments, as of hospitals. ⁓ it's really ⁓ that that's where a lot of Israelis ⁓ together, ⁓ for the first time maybe. And obviously during the three, know previous years and especially during the war, ⁓ are a lot of people who are ⁓ who are treated by Arabs, and this hopefully causes people to see the other in a different light. Samah Darwish: Yes, because in hospitals Orly we are in our humanity. it doesn't matter if you are Jewish, Muslim, Arab, whatever, we ⁓ human. So it's really... Josh Weinberg: Yeah, like all of a sudden. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, and we actually wrote a report about this in 2017 about how we can try to replicate the coexistence that exists in the health system to other systems in Israel. Josh Weinberg: I think part of it is that you don't have a choice. When you show up and you're like, a second, my doctor's an Arab and ⁓ my gosh, and I'm afraid and what's gonna happen? And then it turns out, okay, are professionals and treat you like every other human being. And I wish there were better ways to do that without having to wait for people to access the healthcare system. But a critically important example, I think. Orly Erez Likhovski: Right, right. Yeah. Josh Weinberg: Orly, you mentioned war and you mentioned the effects of October ⁓ 7th ⁓ and, know, about Yolanda's example of taking three steps forward and five steps back. There's no question that war and the aftermath of October 7th caused a sense of deep-seated fear, of feeling threatened, and increased the polarization within the community. let me ask you and then also Samah, how do you talk about racism? How do you address this, especially when people feel so fearful, so threatened, and so just completely polarized one from another? YSN: and you want to come and solve this problem. Yeah, I was thinking about this when when you all were speaking earlier about this idea of becoming. I when, ⁓ you ⁓ tragedy wherever it happens, I think it's human nature to ⁓ become insular, smaller, you know, let let me connect and be with, you know. people who are like me, people who I am comforted by, people who remind me of who I am. ⁓ ⁓ think that that's necessarily ⁓ bad thing if that's all that we do. And I think right now that we are hopefully starting to kind of emerge from that because trauma will make you. make you do that where you have to figure out how you find that sense of community and belonging. And that is the easiest, strongest bond and connection. But with that, you can kind of create more of an other, whereas everyone else is seen as potential threats to you your community and to your livelihood. And I think that those feelings can really exacerbate racism because oftentimes the way we've created the socially constructed, you know, idea that people are divided by race, we easily create these negative ⁓ racist feelings other people and we apply it to the entirety of a group. And that makes really dangerous because then we start acting. with those views in mind. we're not necessarily, sometimes we're conscious of it and sometimes we aren't conscious of it. And so for something that's already very strained by the system that's been created, when we have tragedies that happened, and I think especially October 7th in the Jewish community, that we trying to figure out who's our side and who's not on our side. I'll give you an interesting example and I probably shouldn't go into a lot of detail here, but it's very fresh on my mind, honestly. took a course I was ⁓ in course with everyone ⁓ in ⁓ this is And I heard a lot of the dialogue and conversation that really highlighted and exacerbated what I'm talking about, this need to create and other out of this response to trauma, out of this response to feeling unsteady and insecure and a very insecure place. But with that kind of thinking really creates this other in a way that's really dangerous and I think is further dividing human beings into kind of these small factions people. instead of coming together and realizing and recognizing that we are all in some way, you know, experiencing discrimination and being othered if we're living marginalized identities, but we're diffusing it so much that it's so focused on me that I turn, I kind of turn on others and create, you know, more ⁓ of an issue and dangerous territory than had been created in the past. So it's a challenge. And for those of us on this screen, we live in a space and we work in a space where we're kind of in a bubble. We're working with people with similar values and to work towards similar goals. There are a lot of people in our who are not thinking with that same sort of mindset. They're thinking with that very small insular I got to buckle down. I got to hold on to. to what's mine and who my community is mindset. And those are things we have to try to unpack. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, I really connect to what you're saying, Yolanda. I definitely agree that in times of trauma and fear, we are really turning inside, right, to people who are like us. And that's a real challenge when we're trying to fight racism and prejudice and discrimination. And Samah, I want to ask you post October 7th and the very difficult period that we are still living in Israel, I want you to talk, to share a little bit some of the challenges that fighting racism at this time. what it has been for you. Samah Darwish: is the most complex period we have ever faced because the social tension is at an all time high and racism seeping workplaces and academia also in the streets. And the challenge that we have, it's that is the most complex period we have ever faced because the social tension is at an all time high and racism seeping workplaces and academia also in the streets. And the challenge that we have, it's that empathy and containment are at a really record and we seeing a sharp rise in reporting racist incidents. So believe that our ⁓ is act as a to prevent the racism empathy and containment are at a really record and we seeing a sharp rise in reporting racist incidents. So believe that our ⁓ is act as a to prevent the racism and total loss of control within the society. And it's really challenging and a total loss of control within the society. And it's really challenging because I can share that even now we had a campaign that we supposed to do it in the 21 of March and we are really thinking that if the field is ready to this. And it's really the time to talk about this because people don't have the capacity to contain it emotionally. are really, as I said before, we are really connecting to the field because the field, it's really important that the timing is really important. So are in time this, we try to focus in the similarity of things, even ⁓ So we are in time like this, we try to focus in the similarity of things, even ⁓ when we are different. challenging, but we're not losing hope. when we are really different, we have a lot of similar things that we can share. when we are different. yes, It's challenging, but we're not losing hope. And also when we are really different, we have a lot of similar things that we can share. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, so Samah, you mentioned hope and we are really nearing the end of this episode and I want to ask you in conclusion, both of you, Samah and Yolanda, at this very, very difficult time, what does give you hope bring about a better future, a future of inclusion and tolerance and equality for all? Samah Darwish: can share that the is really simple because the hope is found in the small victories, ⁓ as said, in a victim who achieves justice, like the student that we talked about earlier, and in the that want to volunteer and choose equality despite the hardship, and the knowledge that a healthy society is measured. by its ability to protect minorities. So for me, the action itself, it's the core ⁓ hope. Also in these days when it's really we have the alerts all the time and we can't sleep and we're really fear and a lot of Arab people don't have shelters. ⁓ But action I'm helping For a better society, this is what's giving me hope in these hard times. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, and we should definitely mention that one of the issues that we have been dealing with in the last few weeks is really demanding shelters for all Israelis, regardless of race. I completely resonate with what you said, that we feel that our actions are meaningful, especially at this time. Yolanda, how about you? YSN: ⁓ just add that ⁓ of the things that's given me hope is the opportunity for a new day for renewal, to up and work with like you all on this screen and others who want to see a better day, who want to see all people thrive feel like they belong. It's the thing that really inspires me to keep moving and doing the work, knowing that every day is a new day and there's a new opportunity to make a difference. Orly Erez Likhovski: Wow, Josh, I want to tell you that ⁓ those two amazing women make me hopeful that we have such impressive leaders in our movement, for sure. Josh Weinberg: Me too. And I look to you both Yolanda and Salma for constant guidance and teaching us how to do this. And I think that it's a humbling experience for me to say, wait a second, I have a tremendous amount to learn in this area. And I'm glad that we can use this date of March 21st to really explore our own behavior and our position in society and how we can actually work through this and help to create a world of equality and equity. diversity, inclusion, et cetera, all these really, really important things. so I want to thank you all so much. And I want to thank you for listening to the pluralist podcast. Why didn't you go ahead and give us a five-star review on Spotify or Apple or wherever podcasts are available. You could even go in and write your own review. Maybe something like, ⁓ my gosh, this was exactly the thing I've been searching for for my entire life to help me break down the complex issues of Israeli society and the relationship between diaspora Jews and Israel. I can't imagine not listening to this podcast and helping, you know, getting the useful language on doing this. And I could even recommend this to others. And if you're so inclined, you could support or even sponsor an episode of the Pluralist Podcast. What a great way to celebrate a birthday, an anniversary. Shabbat, upcoming Yom Haatzmaut A great way to say this is the message that I want to send and I want to help others break down the complex issues of Israel and the diaspora and support the Reform Movement's work here in addressing societies I look forward to the next episode. Thank you all so much.