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Vouchers were ruled unconstitutional - Now what? · Public Education Matters

• Various student voices 0:08 Public education matters. Public education matters. Public education matters. Jeff Wensing 0:14 This is Public Education Matters brought to you by the Ohio Education Association. Katie Olmsted 0:26 Thanks for joining us for this edition of Public Education Matters. I'm your host, Katie Olmsted, and I'm part of the communications team for the Ohio Education Association and the nearly 120,000 public school educators OEA represents in communities across the state, every single day, these educators do everything they can to serve their students and help their students succeed, but they face incredible challenges because of decades of underfunding for our public schools from the state, and rather than focusing on the public schools that serve 90% of students in Ohio, including 95% of Ohio students with disabilities. Our lawmakers have continued to divert critical funding from public schools to pay for private school tuition vouchers, mostly for religious schools, mostly for families that were already sending their kids to private schools in the first place, and none of it with anything close to the same level of transparency and accountability as the public tax dollars that go to our public schools where they belong. It's not only wrong, Ohio's voucher scheme is unconstitutional. That was the ruling from a Franklin County Judge over the summer in the vouchers hurt Ohio lawsuit, as expected, the state has appealed that ruling, and the case is continuing to make its way through the courts. In January of this year, both sides filed briefs with the Ohio 10th District Court of Appeals, and right after those filings, I got to sit down with an OEA member who is on the steering committee for the lawsuit to learn more about where things stand with the case, what the coalition is arguing in court, the legal arguments, I mean, and where everything goes from here, including what educators should be saying to their district leaders about why their district should join the suit. It's a bit of a long conversation, I'll admit, but it is so, so important. So please sit back, relax and take a listen. Dan Heintz 2:32 My name is Dan Heintz. I am a member of the OEA proudly. I'm a teacher in Chardon and a member of the Chardon Education Association, where for a few years I served as the vice president. I'm also a member of the Cleveland Heights-University Heights Board of Education, which is my hometown, and I'm a member of the Steering Committee for the Vouchers Hurt Ohio lawsuit. Katie Olmsted 2:53 Okay, so quick recap, getting everyone up to speed. Vouchers Hurt Ohio lawsuit was filed in a Franklin County Court, we got a ruling on that last summer. What do people need to know about what came out of that? Dan Heintz 3:06 So yeah, we filed four years ago in January, and we filed five claims, and a claim in a lawsuit like this is basically just saying that the ED choice voucher system violates the state constitution in these five different ways, and we were thrilled this summer that Franklin County Judge Jaiza Page agreed with us outright on three of those. She sort of punted on a fourth, and she gave a fifth to the other side. So it was a great summer for public education in Ohio. Katie Olmsted 3:46 And I want to get into the specific claims and what everybody is saying about them, but I also want to just get to where we are today. I'm talking to you on January 13th. January 12th was a day where arguments were due back to the court in the appeals, right? Dan Heintz 4:03 Yes. Katie Olmsted 4:04 What's going on? Dan Heintz 4:04 Great. So as I said, we won three claims, and we we lost a fourth and a fifth. The judge said, I don't want to get too much into the legal ease, but all of this was done in a summary judgment fashion, where both sides agreed that the paperwork told enough of the story and we didn't need to take it to court. And so both sides said, Judge, would you just decide the case based on the paper in front of you? And which explains why it took so very long for Judge Page to make her decision. She is meticulous. She reads every word on every page, she follows every link, and she's extremely considerate of everything that's in front of her. So for one of the claims, her decision was, I can't decide this without a trial. We won three and she gave the remaining one to the other side. We filed all of the paperwork for the appeal yesterday. We've been filing things, actually up until yesterday, but yesterday we finished it. So did the other side, the other side being the state of Ohio, and so we are eager now to get into the hands of the 10th District Court of Appeals. It is a three judge tribunal, and we actually asked them to reconsider Judge Page's decision on the claim that she gave to the other side, and we are extremely confident that when they do reconsider that we're going to take all four claims and we will be successful in the court of appeals this coming summer. We feel that we that it'll be heard. Katie Olmsted 5:55 Right. So the last one was a summary judgment. This one, we are expecting oral arguments, Dan Heintz 5:58 Absolutely. Katie Olmsted 5:59 Are they in court? Dan Heintz 6:00 We can't wait. You know, Ohio is blessed with a state constitution that is incredibly clear. There's nothing complicated in the language of the Ohio constitution, and so, you know, it's all right there on the page. And anybody, I don't care if you're a 10th grader, you know, reading the state constitution, or if you're a grad student, or if you're a state supreme court judge, the language is right there, and it's clear as day, and it says that public funds are to serve the public good, and the legislature has an obligation to fully fund public education, and critically, a system of public education. A one, a singular, which is singular. And so one of our claims is that with the ED choice vouchers, they have functionally created a second system of education that they are now funding. Katie Olmsted 6:58 So let's, let's get into these claims. Take it from the top. What are we saying and what has what has the judge said about those? Dan Heintz 7:05 Yeah, so count one is the count that says that the creation of one or more systems of Uncommon Schools is unconstitutional, and this is what we're talking about a few moments ago, when when we talked about the language that says that the legislature has an obligation to fund a system of common schools. And you know, when constitutions are written, these are documents that come through, through so many eyes, and every word is debated and debated and debated. And so the importance of the word a system of common schools is important. And so it is clear that their intention was that there be a singular system of common schools, and that that system be funded by the state legislature. And so we're saying that the ED choice vouchers are a violation of that, because they are, in a sense, creating a second system of schools being funded by the legislature. And again, Judge Page agreed with us. Katie Olmsted 8:09 Now I will say, I know, in the stuff that was filed yesterday, the news coverage I'm seeing the other side of this is saying, while the vouchers are funding people, not schools, it's that's going to the parents, not the schools, so they're not funding schools. What do you say to that? Dan Heintz 8:26 I say that Ohio's voters have a right to be certain that their tax dollars are being spent for the public good, and that when these people were writing our Constitution. They were writing a constitution for the public good, not the private good. And so, you know, we have already passed two different filters on these things. When we initial, initially filed the lawsuit, the other side, the state filed to dismiss each one of the claims. And so there was a judgment initially, and the judge studied each claim, and the judge said, No, each one of these claims needs to be heard. So we passed that filter, and then we went through the trial court system and we passed it again. So you know, I'm thrilled that the other side has actually finally come up with what they're calling a legal argument against some of this stuff, because, honestly, they never have. They've never put forth a legal argument. They will put forth, you know, ideas about why they think it's why they think that private schools should be funded, why they think parents should be able to take their money with them. But they've never talked about an actual legal explanation for this before, and so you know, they are at this point, about three years late and a few dollars short. Katie Olmsted 9:47 Right and wrong and wrong, right? The 10th Court of Appeals will also find those that day in court coming up. Dan Heintz 9:54 There's no question, no question about it. Katie Olmsted 9:57 And there's a bunch of other things they're appealing. Um, let's, let's get into those. Dan Heintz 10:02 Good. So count two is that lawmakers have failed to adequately fund a thorough and efficient system. This is critically important. Private school vouchers force local school districts to raise money through local taxes, through levies, and this reduces the amount of money that is available for our public schools. So I want to read, and this is a direct quote from the state constitution. It is the famous Article Six, section two, and I think that listeners will understand, really what an open and shut case this is when it comes to this quote, "the General Assembly shall make such provisions by taxation or otherwise as with the income arising from the School Trust Fund, and they will secure a thorough and efficient system of common schools throughout the state, but no religious or other sect or sects shall ever have any exclusive right to or control of any part of the school funds of this state". End quote. Katie Olmsted 11:18 So this is a separation of church and state issue as much as anything else? Dan Heintz 11:22 Absolutely it is, and that's when I talk about how clear the state constitution is. And when we look at, you know, we're sending a billion dollars a year, actually, probably north of a billion dollars a year, of taxpayer money into private schools. 90 plus percent of those private schools are religious schools, and so you can't justify, you can't have the language of the state constitution and those vouchers, you just can't. Katie Olmsted 11:53 And you know, you mentioned that they're sending them a billion dollars plus a year to these private schools in the briefs that were filed yesterday, the other side is saying, well, that's different. It's it. They have two different formulas for funding. It's it's different things. But that's not true, because in our state budget, public education and private education come out of that same line item. So $1 towards private schools is $1 less towards public schools. And we see that bear out. I mean, you have the stats on this one, the ED choice vouchers are a certain amount. It's like 8000 something dollars for high schoolers. Dan Heintz 12:27 Yes, yes, yes. Katie Olmsted 12:27 In your districts that you know about, off the top of your head, how much state money are they getting per kid? Dan Heintz 12:32 In my district, in Cleveland Heights-University Heights, we're right around $2,400 per student. Katie Olmsted 12:38 Make that make sense. Dan Heintz 12:40 You can't make it make sense. You can't because really what the state is doing is they're saying that they value a student in the Cleveland Heights-University Heights Public Schools, $2,400 worth. But if that student transfers to a private school, then they will value that student at $8,700 and that's bananas. Katie Olmsted 13:06 It's bananas. Dan Heintz 13:08 And, and what that does is this system destabilizes public education, and the it is removing those students from our classroom, which is really important for the next count that we're going to get into, which reduces the number of teachers in our classrooms, which reduces, you know, the number of teachers in our association, which is reduce it reducing the number of teachers that are funding our retirement system. And this, you cannot overlook the impact on us as professionals and our future as you're looking at what the legislature is doing also. Katie Olmsted 13:46 And that's by design. Dan Heintz 13:47 By design. Katie Olmsted 13:48 That that's not a oh, we're just trying to help out those very small amount of kids who are taking these vouchers, who were already in the private schools for the most part. It is by design dismantling public education in Ohio by defunding it. Dan Heintz 14:02 And rewarding those families who are have always used private schools. Remember? I mean, again, similarly, 90% of the students who started taking vouchers when they expanded, they basically eliminated the family income requirements in two budgets ago, the number of people using vouchers skyrocketed, but the number of students attending private schools did not skyrocket, and so what that means is that the people who are now using vouchers have been attending private school all along. This has nothing to do with family's ability to pay the way that I say it is, these are families who are not escaping failing public schools. These are families who are fleeing a tuition bill. Katie Olmsted 14:47 Right. And like I wouldn't listen, free money from the state is not something that anybody can pass up, yeah, but the state shouldn't be handing out that free money from public tax dollars that belong in public schools when they aren't funding our public schools adequately, and that's been deemed unconstitutional already, and that's been deemed unconstitutional four times that they have not been doing their jobs for our public schools. Dan Heintz 15:10 I'm so glad you brought that up, because you know, it's important to remember we are not demonizing families who are using private schools, families who are using vouchers to attend private schools. If somebody gave me an $8,700 coupon to buy a Jeep that I was already going to buy, I'd use the coupon. Katie Olmsted 15:30 Absolutely. Dan Heintz 15:31 It. We're in this very strange point in Ohio History where vouchers are both unconstitutional and legal, and so we shouldn't vilify anyone for using them. We should vilify the legislature that is making this possible for us to be speaking out of two sides of our mouths at the same time. Katie Olmsted 15:55 And who made this a zero sum game? They say it's not a zero sum game. They can do both, but they don't. They made it a zero sum game. Dan Heintz 16:03 Right. And also creating a narrative that, oh, well, you know, woe is me the private schools, if these things go away, I will remind all of the listeners that private schools in Ohio thrived for a century before they received a single penny of public taxpayer money. Dan Heintz 16:04 And they do in many other states that don't have these vouchers. Dan Heintz 16:15 Yes, absolutely. Katie Olmsted 16:15 And families who want to send their children to private schools, more power to you. There's many reasons why people want to do that, but not at the expense of the 90% of students who attend our public schools, which is a constitutional mandate to fund. Dan Heintz 16:43 Yes, right. And so as we talk about, you know, the students that are leaving our private schools when we get to count three, it talks about the impact of the loss of those students on our public school classrooms. Count three talks about how private school vouchers resegregate our public schools. And so we see this all the time where the overwhelming majority of the students who are using vouchers are white students going into mostly religious schools. And so what that does is that depletes the public schools of those white students, which is making our public school classrooms in those districts more and more and more segregated. Katie Olmsted 17:30 And it doesn't represent the community you would expect the classroom to look like the wider community where you have you know, let's say 80% white students, 20% black students, in a community you're going to see 80% white students, 20% black students in a classroom. But because of these vouchers, that is not what we're seeing. Dan Heintz 17:46 In Cleveland Heights-University Heights, the students in our desks are majority minority and majority poverty. Katie Olmsted 17:55 Yes. Dan Heintz 17:56 The community that is housing our public school system is neither. Katie Olmsted 18:01 And when you are serving students that are coming from poverty, they have other challenges that are bigger than just you know, the textbooks in the classroom. There are so many challenges to learning and barriers to learning, and that makes them more expensive to educate. Dan Heintz 18:18 Right. Katie Olmsted 18:18 So the private schools are taking the kids that are cheap to educate and saying, Look, we're doing a great job with this, and the state is underfunding the schools that are now serving a higher percentage of students with even more needs. Dan Heintz 18:30 Correct, for instance, so statewide, about 14% of students are being served with special ed services. In my district, it's 20%. Because we know that the schools who accept vouchers don't accept kids who have IEPs and 504 is very often. They also don't accept kids. They reject kids based on on religion, on sexual orientation, as we said, on on disability. And they also will dismiss kids pretty easily and send them back into the public schools, often coming back to us with a deficit, because they haven't exactly thrived in the private schools. Katie Olmsted 19:13 Not to mention, there's no accountability for the private schools in the same way that we have for public schools. Public schools are held to very rigorous standards, for better or for worse, there is so much testing, so much transparency, so much just auditing of everything everybody is doing all the time that private schools don't deal with. They they can take who they want, and they spend the money how they want, and there's no accountability for those public tax dollars. Dan Heintz 19:36 There's none. Katie Olmsted 19:36 They don't even take the same tests. Dan Heintz 19:39 Correct, yeah. And they can choose which tech test they take. Katie Olmsted 19:41 Exactly. Dan Heintz 19:42 Yeah. So we have a billion dollars going into a black hole that they are just functionally, they have absolutely no accountability to taxpayers for that billion dollars. And it's the whole thing just, you know, the further you get into this, the more you just shake your head and wonder, you know, there's no end. But I will remind people, there is an end, and the end is the Vouchers Hurt Ohio lawsuit. Katie Olmsted 20:05 Right. Dan Heintz 20:06 So we move on to count four, which is the religious piece, the religious count, which speaks to that section of the of the Ohio Constitution that I read, and it is clear as day. And so we dealt with that one. Count five is the the Equal Protection count, and this is the one that we're asking the appeals court to reconsider. They. Judge Page threw this one to the state, and we believe that that our case is strong enough that we're asking them to rehear it. And basically it's saying that Ohio citizens hold all power under the constitution. We are successful. Our state lawmakers will not be permitted to fund the harmful private school program or any other separate but unequal system of schools, the EdChoice Private Voucher program is unconstitutional based on that. Katie Olmsted 21:07 And when we're saying the unequal, I mean that comes right back down to those money, those dollars. Dan Heintz 21:11 Yes. Katie Olmsted 21:12 $8,000 versus $2,000 that's a very big difference, and it's and it is telling us that we have different classes of people, different values of people, and that's not okay. Dan Heintz 21:23 Yeah. I mean, I call it the donor class, and I think that that's what it really how else can you explain it? Why else would you know the family of Les Wexner have their children's tuition underwritten by people like you and me. Katie Olmsted 21:45 Right. Dan Heintz 21:46 We live in a state where families earning $50,000 a year are subsidizing the private school tuition of families earning $500,000 a year. Katie Olmsted 21:58 I mean, that's wrong on a moral level. I don't know that we have a legal argument on that one. Dan Heintz 21:59 Right, right. Katie Olmsted 22:00 But we have so many legal arguments. Dan Heintz 22:03 Correct. Katie Olmsted 22:04 We have so many legal arguments that are just so black and white. And I know however, this goes in the 10th Circuit for the appeals. That's not the end of the story. We're probably going to the Ohio Supreme Court from here. And I've talked to you before, it's good that it's black and white. We have a very conservative Supreme Court, and people are shaking in their boots going well, this is a moot point anyway, but you don't see it that way. Dan Heintz 22:31 No, I'm thrilled. So first of all, some listeners may not be aware that the coalition that is taking this case to the Supreme Court, the state Supreme Court is under the same umbrella that took the DeRolph decision to the state Supreme Court 30 years ago, and Bill Phyllis, the patron saint of public education in Ohio. Wonderful man. I'm proud to call him my mentor. Bill Phyllis led that case, the DeRolph case 30 years ago, and he's he's doing the same for hours today. Bill is eager to remind people that in the DeRolph case, the Supreme Court was five Republicans, two Democrats, and they cited the right way. And I think that that listeners need to understand why that is, and why we are so encouraged with where we are right now, and that is the state Supreme Court looked out at the landscape of the state of Ohio, and there are about 600 school districts in Ohio, and 500 of them were members of the of the coalition that took the DeRolph case. And these Supreme Court justices looked out at the state and they understood there's no chance that they can be reelected if they don't do the right thing. And and so we are. We feel wonderful moving forward to a conservative court because a the law is clear as day, and when you when the law is on your side, you want what's called a strict constructionist judge, or court of judges. Katie Olmsted 24:06 Someone who sees "A" and that has meaning. Dan Heintz 24:09 yeah, somebody who the words on the page are all that matter, and if the words on the page are all that matter, we win five out of five counts. There's no question. But if it turns into a political debate, we're in pretty good shape, too, because we have a coalition. We've had around 300 districts. We are growing all the time. The incredible decision that we got this this past summer spurred new life into it, and we've had a number of districts sign up. We've got, we have, sort of a group of districts moving forward right now through the process. We've got members of communities going into speak at board meetings. We've got taxpayers. You know, we're in a really interesting moment in Ohio, because on one hand, we have the Vouchers Hurt Ohio lawsuit going, and at the same time, we have this Acts the Tax movement, which is so interesting. And you know, you talk about politics making strange bedfellows. So so the Acts the Tax movement has actually adopted much of the language that comes from the DeRolph case, where, in the DeRolph case, the decision of the court was that, at the time, the funding system was illegal because it relied too heavily on property taxes. Katie Olmsted 25:32 Wait, what? Dan Heintz 25:33 Yes. Katie Olmsted 25:33 I'm shocked to hear that in 2026 that that was a problem in 1997. I'm shocked. Dan Heintz 25:39 Yes, and so. So the Acts the Tax movement has sort of dialed into the language from DeRolph, and they've, they're beginning to really familiarize themselves with what we're up to, because they understand that, wait a minute, a billion dollars a year going into a black hole of private schools who don't have to respond to Freedom of Information Act requests, who are not in any way audited by the state of Ohio. This is just a sort of throw money in the door and hope for the best. So these people are really using our language, and they're becoming, you know, they're eager to learn more about the lawsuit, and they're sort of adopting our fight as their own. And these are people who, usually are people who vote red, and so the legislature is going to have a hard, hard, hard time, because remember, we've got a lot of legislate legislators on the ballot this coming November. So this Acts the Tax group is really upset with them to begin with, and now they're taking on our beliefs and our pursuits as their own. And so we're having these these different organizations who might not hang out a lot together, all pursuing the same goal, and it's just it's been a fascinating thing to see recently. Katie Olmsted 27:10 Because all roads do lead back to the legislature and their decisions, the unconstitutional decisions to not fund a common system of schools. Now I think this is one of those moments where we have a member up in Elyria, Matt Jablonski, who just sent a letter to all of his legislators being like, come to our school board meeting. I invite you as my personal guest to our school board meeting so you can see what your vote has done when you did not fully and fairly fund our public schools, what you are doing to our students. And I do wonder if this is that moment of reckoning from the last eight budget where they underfunded our public schools by what, $2.75 billion in this biennium, if there are more school districts now, for all the reasons the lawsuit and everything, but the wins on the lawsuit, I should say, but saying, we can't sit on the sidelines of this one anymore. Look at the harm that is being done to our kids. Dan Heintz 28:12 Right. Yeah. First of all, Matt is phenomenal. He's such a great voice for public education. So more than 90% of vouchers come from the 11 counties in Ohio. So there are 88 counties in Ohio. So if you do the math, that's 77 counties are paying for vouchers that their people are not using, and yet their districts are being harmed by that decision. You know it is important to the numbers that you just said about this biennial budget, this biennial budget under funds public education, almost to the scent that they are, that they are funding private school vouchers. Katie Olmsted 28:51 Yeah, don't tell me that's not a zero sum game, yeah. Don't tell me that. Dan Heintz 28:54 Right, yeah. And so it's just, it's, you know, you talk to people and you know, you go and you testify, and it's really like these folks. I don't know what tea they're drinking, but they're really out of touch. They're out of touch, certainly with public school advocates like us, but they're also out just out of touch completely. And and you wonder, what is, what is their ultimate end game? Because what they're doing isn't serving anyone. It's not serving the future of the state of Ohio. It's not serving rural areas or urban areas. It just, it seems to be just serving sort of their continued existence, because it's a billion dollars a year going to the donor class. And the donor class are the people who keep, you know, donating to their campaigns. Katie Olmsted 29:49 In our gerrymandered state where it's not competitive, and all of the other things that would those are entire conversations in themselves. Dan Heintz 29:57 Right. I've stopped calling it our General Assembly and started calling it the our gerrymandered assembly. Katie Olmsted 30:02 Yeah, or our private assembly. I mean. Dan Heintz 30:04 Correct. Katie Olmsted 30:04 All they care about is those that small percentage of the private school, private class, private all the things as as we're talking to educators who are hearing this, who are in districts, who are not part of the lawsuit. What would you want them to tell their district leaders? Dan Heintz 30:20 First of all, folks should go to vouchershurtohio.com which is a great website and has all of the tools we have built tool kits for people like members of the OEA who are far more educated on the needs and the promise of public education than probably anybody in the legislature, but it has all the tools to get you geared up to go and present to your board of education and say, Hey, why aren't we in the vouchers heard Ohio lawsuit? So membership in the lawsuit costs $2 per pupil, so it's not very expensive, and we really need our numbers to grow, because we know what happened with the DeRolph case. But our members can go to the Vouchers Hurt Ohio website and get everything that they need, and they can also reach out to us through vouchershurtohio.com and and we can help to train you up. We hold conference calls one Monday a month, and we have people from all over the state who are sort of beginning the process and sort of sharing success stories. What's working, what's not working. We have been known to come and visit districts and meet, you know, in small with small groups of activists to help them get geared up for this. We've had a great deal of success and and it's been a lot of fun. I mean, you're basically, we all know the fellowship value of meeting with kindred spirits, and our meetings really live that. So, yeah, we are desperate for additional districts. We you know, we have 600 districts in the state. We want 600 districts in the lawsuit. Katie Olmsted 32:12 Because 600 districts are being harmed by vouchers. Dan Heintz 32:13 No question. The days when people said, well, you know, vouchers don't affect us, those days are long gone. Because, as you mentioned earlier, it is the exact same line item that is funding vouchers that is funding state, you know, public schools and so it's a foolish idea that you're no longer affected by vouchers if you don't have students in your district using vouchers. No, no, the students in southeastern Ohio using vouchers are affecting the students in northeastern Ohio. There's no question about it. Katie Olmsted 32:45 And because the state is not doing its fair share on anything except for vouchers, they're they're happy to pay for those, it's driving up property tax reliance in every single district across the state. So when we have the Acts the Tax thing, which I for the record, would be absolutely devastating across the board. I don't want to be bedfellows with that, but it is an interesting, strange bedfellow sort of situation where we're all seeing the outcome of the same decisions from the legislature, and the harm it's causing in our communities, because it's driving up those property taxes. Yes, so that affects you, that affects every single district in the state. Dan Heintz 33:22 Right. But you know the hopeful piece of this too? There is a hopeful piece of it. Katie Olmsted 33:26 Oh, thank goodness. Dan Heintz 33:27 Yes. No kidding. So if you look at November's elections, the culture warriors had a really bad day. Katie Olmsted 33:35 Yes, they did. Dan Heintz 33:35 I saw a number that in contested school board elections with Moms for Liberty type candidates on the ballot, they lost only, only 25% of those contested races were won by moms for Liberty culture warriors. That's a very different, very different election than years before, and so what we can say with certainty is that Ohio voters are tired of it. Ohio voters are sick and tired of culture wars on their boards of education. Ohio voters are wanting boards of education to just be able to focus on the work at the hand, on the work at hand, to do the work affecting their kids, and stop talking about banning books and about all of the nonsense that we have been drug through over the past couple of years. The other thing to remember also about last November's elections is that something like 65% of levies passed, and I am always just so happy, because when you think about a levy, and everybody listening to this podcast has at one time or another, knocked on a stranger's door and asked them to support a levy, which is people going to the ballot and voluntarily increasing their own taxes for the public good that is public education, because they understand, you know, as I say all the time the power and promise of public education, and they understand that public education matters. Hey, I see what I did there. And and so it's, it's really, it's real civic altruism. And in 65% of the cases in Ohio last November, people said, Yeah, I'm in. Katie Olmsted 35:20 Yeah, at a time when property taxes have been increasing for again, a variety of reasons, not least of which because the state is not paying its fair share. Dan Heintz 35:28 And the economy is not exactly, you know, going full guns, and yet they still, they still did it. They still said, Yeah, this is important. So I look out at the landscape and I'm actually really optimistic. I love what I see. Katie Olmsted 35:44 And I am optimistic having had this opportunity to hear from you, to go through those arguments, because at the end of the day, there's that, there's the altruism, and then there's illegal arguments, and we need to win on the legal arguments, which are very strong. Dan Heintz 35:58 We do. And I can't wait. I love when we're in court, because, you know, what we talk about is all that matters. It is the constitution of the state of Ohio and the policies coming out of the Ohio legislature, which simply don't jive. And so it is up to the the judicial branch to fix it. And you know, people sometimes say that well, okay, we talked about the DeRolph case. Well, what did that do for us? You know, the state hasn't, the legislature hasn't lived up to the requirement in the DeRolph case. But first of all, the DeRolph case is responsible for about 1600 school buildings being built since then. Katie Olmsted 36:36 Right. That was a very big thing. Just looking at the buildings themselves. Dan Heintz 36:39 Yes, yes. The OFCC was established by the DeRolph case, and we have learned from the DeRolph case, also in the DeRolph case, they basically were the relief that they were asking for is just, Hey, court, please force the legislature to fix this. When the legislature failed to do so, we're now asking for a very different thing, and this lawsuit is act is asking for what's called Injunctive Relief. Katie Olmsted 37:05 Stop the vouchers. Dan Heintz 37:07 Which means an absolute order to stop cutting the checks. And there, there's nobody can say no to that. Okay, so it is an absolute full stop that when it gets to the state Supreme Court. And when the state Supreme Court either decides it on the law or on politics, because both are on our side, because both are on our side, they will issue the permanent injunction which stops it, and we only need to win one. We're taking three wins to the Court of Appeals. We're asking for a fourth and we'll take whatever we get from there to the state Supreme Court, and again, we only need one. And I invite people to read the state constitution for themselves and find wiggle room in there. There's no wiggle room. We, the law is on our side. Katie Olmsted 38:00 Boy, I'm glad you're on our side, because I love talking to you and understanding these issues so much better. Dan Heintz, thank you. Dan Heintz 38:06 Thank you for having me. I love doing this. Katie Olmsted 38:10 Our thanks again to Dan Heintz for breaking all of this down for us. We have the link to the Vouchers Hurt Ohio website in the show notes for this episode, for anyone who wants to learn more, and while you're in the show notes, please make sure you subscribe to public education matters wherever you get your podcasts, so you don't miss an episode in the future. New episodes continue to drop every Thursday this season, as we continue to dig into the big education issues facing our state. Because in Ohio, public education matters. Transcribed by https://otter.ai