Latest / The Living Waters Podcast / Ep. 303 - How to Reach Muslims With the Gospel

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Ep. 303 - How to Reach Muslims With the Gospel · The Living Waters Podcast

• 1:04
  Speaker 2: I think, the problem is you just need to get to know some of them.
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: Listen, they're just like us.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: Stop and think they believe in God.
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: We believe in God.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: They believe in Revelation.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: We believe in Revelation.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: They believe in heaven and hell.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: We believe in heaven and hell.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: They just got the wrong God, the wrong Revelation and the wrong heaven and hell.
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: So they start from the same paradigm and they also go to a man who they try to follow.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: We go to another man, a bigger man, a better man.
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: So in some ways, why wouldn't you want to work?
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: with them.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: As you know, friends, my co-hosts banter a lot.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: I, of course, the ever lowly humble, non-verbose one who usually says next to nothing both at the beginning and throughout this podcast, will follow my standard pattern today.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: But today, friends, I will not allow my co-hosts to banter, nor will we even be doing our cool, classy comments or our radically revolutionary resources, because today, friends, we have a very special guest with us and we want to use every single second to pick his brilliant brain.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: We have with us today our good friend, jay Smith, who just moments ago educated us on curry, but we won't get into that today because we don't want to waste time.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: Jay, it's good to have you with us.
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: Thank you All the way from.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: Well, actually from India, but via Pennsylvania at the moment.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: India.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: That's why you talked about curry.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: That's why that's what I grew up with.
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: Do you live in India or are you just saying you're a Jew?
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: I was born there.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: I grew up there.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: My father was born there.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: He grew up there.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: My grandfather's grave is there, so we've been there since 1913, my family.
• 2:43
  Speaker 4: Missionary work or what was?
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: Missionaries, all missionaries.
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: I'm third generation.
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: So what dialect do you speak?
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: Pahari, which is a Hindi dialect.
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: Okay, fluent, give us a little, say something Upkasat kahes Meranam ortapkanam kahe.
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: Okay, now I.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: You are short.
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: Now, I believe.
• 3:01
  Speaker 4: Ray has no doubts.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's great.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: Well, it's great to have you with us, jay, and you have had a ministry to Muslims for a very, very long time.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: Did that begin in India, by the way?
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: Actually?
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: No, In fact, I wanted nothing to do with Islam when I left India.
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you know that, but India is the second largest Muslim country on earth.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: It's now surpassed Pakistan, just south of well, just less than Indonesia, but that's all.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: The Muslims that are there are mostly in the north, so I was born with Muslims, I grew up with Muslims.
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: They're my best friends, so I have no fear of Islam like many Americans have.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you think of the misnomers, you know.
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: I remember years ago I went on a little mission trip, to Turkey, in fact, with Josh Lingle.
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: Josh used to be part of my church.
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: I know you've worked with Josh and that whole stigma of oh, Turkey's 99% Muslim.
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: It's crazy.
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: The warmest, friendliest, most kind-hearted people I've ever met and you share the gospel with them.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: They're on the edge of their seat listening.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: You give them a Bible.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: They go read the gospels all in one night.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, there is a misconception, wouldn't you say, about Muslims.
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: I think the problem is you just need to get to know some of them.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: Listen, they're just like us.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: Stop and think they believe in God.
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: We believe in God.
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: They believe in Revelation.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: We believe in Revelation.
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: They believe in Heaven and Hell, we believe in Heaven and Hell.
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: They just got the wrong God, the wrong Revelation and the wrong Heaven and Hell.
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: So they start from the same paradigm and they also go to a man which who they try to follow.
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: We go to another man, a bigger man, a better man.
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: So in some ways, why wouldn't you want to work with them?
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Wow, that's a good way to put it, jay.
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: Well, I know you've done ministry among Muslims in England, france, senegal and you're back now in the United States.
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: You have a ministry and say the name for me, if you would of your ministry.
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: Well, actually it's Fander P-F-A-N-D.
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: It's named after.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: Dr Fander, dr Carl Fander, I saw that.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: P-f-a-n-d I just want to make sure I pronounced it right.
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: So, yeah okay and so real quick before we jump into it, because again, like I said, we want to maximize our time.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: We love the Muslim people, we people.
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: We've dealt with the topic before with Dr James White on the podcast, but we want to just drill really deep with you today.
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: But tell us a little bit about how your ministry started with Muslims and what you're doing now, and then we'll jump in.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: Actually it started back in 1981, so you can see, I'm rather old, I'm 71.
• 5:23
  Speaker 4: That's not old.
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: Thank you, Ray.
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: Are you older than me?
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: Yes, I could be a grandpa.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: Look at you then.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: Well, okay, so I'm not the oldest one here.
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: Usually I'm always the oldest in the room.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: But back in 81 I was at a conference.
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: I had left India.
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: I didn't want anything more to do with Islam.
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: I was really fed up with the Muslims at that time and I was in the conference in Philadelphia.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: Dr Harvey Kahn started and he said there are 800 million Muslims Huge number, how do you compute?
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: But then he said there are only 1,500 people working amongst this 800 million and that that 1,500 only made up 2%.
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: Now, those two numbers I could compute and it was like a slap in the face.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: I turned to my wife and I said what in the world are we doing wrong Sending only 2% to the fastest growing and probably the most aggressive religion that's attacking us?
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: We need to do something and that's started it.
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: No, pauline experience.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: No, as far as my call to Islam had to do with those two numbers so what did your wife say?
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: well, she agreed with me.
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: She saw it right away as well.
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: I think she was as gobsmacked as I was, and so we've been working with Muslims for 40 years now as a result of that, wow, well, what, what an amazing ministry that is.
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: And I think for a lot of people here in the US they're caught off guard.
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: I'm speaking to the Christian population because there is, like I said earlier, that intimidation factor.
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: But tell us a little bit about the fruit you've seen in your ministry over the years.
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: Now I would have to say there wasn't much fruit.
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: To begin with, because I was using what they call the standard methodology of engaging with Muslims, using apologetics and polemics and not polemics, because that word didn't even know exist in our vocabulary back then and the idea of apologetics, of trying to defend the faith as best you could.
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: And I was asked to go to England to work with the radical Muslims there in 1992, and the place you go to there is called Speaker's Corner.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: So I decided to go down to Speaker's Corner, vincent, hyde Park.
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you've been there.
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: Yes, you would do well there.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: In fact, ray, maybe you and I can go there and get on a ladder together.
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: I'd love to do it.
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: Let's do it again next June if you don't mind.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: Anyways, that's a place where Ray and I would really revel, because what you do is you get up on a ladder and there's hundreds and hundreds of people around you and you just shut them down and you take them on, but you listen to their questions and you respond to them in real quick sound bites.
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: You don't have any papers, you don't have any books, you have no computers.
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: You have to have it all in your head.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: Well, what a great place, what a great workshop to learn how to be quick on your feet.
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and what a great place we weren't learning how to go on the offense.
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: That's something that there's no book that teaches you how to go on to do polemics.
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: So that's where it all started, yeah, and and so.
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: So, jay, tell us a little bit about your approach.
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: All right, now that has changed.
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: Back in 1990s, everything was defending, defending, defending, because all the attacks were coming one direction.
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know.
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: How do you believe that god entered time and space?
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: How could could their God corrupt himself, become a human?
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: How can you say one plus one plus one equals one?
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: These kind of questions, the Trinitarian one that you were going to bring up, all these questions were hitting us and hammering us and we had plenty of responses to that, but no one was asking the Muslims the same question.
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: We weren't taking and putting it back in their laps.
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: We weren't asking hold on a minute, god.
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: What God are you talking about?
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: You mean your God can enter time and space and I, your God, can't go to the toilet like I can go to the toilet.
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: Your God can't eat like I can eat.
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: That means I'm greater than your God.
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: So just taking the same questions and throwing them right back in their laps, saying why don't we do that?
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: Start doing that.
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: So that's what I started doing in about maybe around 2000,.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: And then, of course, 2001 happened and you all know what happened in 9-11.
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: Suddenly, the narrative changed.
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: In Islam it was not a religion that was very violent and very aggressive.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: Now they became a religion of peace overnight and we had to change our narrative.
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: Well, who best to really defend the whole peace initiative than someone who's a pacifist, which I am?
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: I'm a Mennonite and we're the best at it because we use scripture to defend everything we say, and I would take any of you guys on when it comes to pacifism.
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: So suddenly I was being called to go on all the university campuses and in the churches because the Anklings don't know how to answer this question we do.
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: So everything moved over to pacifism.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: The whole thing is which is the religion of peace, islam or Christianity?
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: But then I came across some new material that just popped into our lap.
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: I was studying there, as in 1995, 1994.
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: I was studying under Dr Gerald Hotting at the University of London and we were looking at the origins of Islam, looking and asking historical questions, the same historical questions that were asked of Jesus Christ, you know.
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: Did he exist?
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: Who were these people that wrote down his record?
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: Do we have any of the original manuscripts of Matthew, mark Luke and John or the writings of Paul Well, these are questions I learned about in seminary, but for the first time they were taking those questions and applying them to Islam.
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: Who is this Muhammad?
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: Did he exist?
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: Is there an equivalent to Matthew, mark Luke and John in the Muslim archive?
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: Is there something there?
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: Were there any eyewitnesses to who this Muhammad was or where he lived or even what he was doing?
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: And then I came across a scholar named Dr Patricia Corona from Denmark.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: She was head of department at Oxford University when I got to know her and I was starting to do my doctorate under her, and she reasoned and writes 15 languages and she was asking some of the most devastating questions that I'd never heard of before, saying you know, we can't find any reference for a place called Mecca in the 7th century.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: There's no city called Mecca anywhere on any map.
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: I said I never heard this before, that there is no one called Muhammad that we can find in the 7th century, that far south, in a place called Mecca, in the Hijaz, that central part of Arabia.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: And we can't find any Quran at all.
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: There's no manuscript.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: That's that early.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: We don't have any reference.
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: Now, have you guys heard this before?
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: Probably the first time you're hearing it.
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: No, I watched a video last night of you.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: Okay, well, see, this is I was getting in 1995, and I was going up to her and I said to her, and I said, goodness sakes, this is amazing.
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: And at that time I was challenged to a debate because everything I was learning from Dr Gerald Hunting.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: I was taking down to Speaker's Corner, I wanted to field test it and he called me into his office and he gave me a tongue lash.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: He says don't you ever do this?
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: I said why not?
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: He says I'm going to have a death threat on me.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: I'm just teaching you this.
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: You're not to use it.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: I'm fuel testing.
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: I'm peer reviewing this for you every week and I'm getting beat up.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: Not you, I'm the one that's got my glasses broken.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: I'm the one that's getting.
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: And I was getting my glasses broken.
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: I was getting bloodied.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: They all tried to open up my throat.
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: They were physically attacking you.
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: Physically attacking me.
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: Remember, this is before 9-11.
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, this is the 1990s.
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: It was very violent back then and so I realized their only response they could give is their fists.
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: They could not respond to this.
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: I said this is amazing.
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: Well, that was back in 1990s and I did this debate in 1995 with a guy named Dr Jamal Badawi, head of.
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: He was a professor at Halifax University, but he was the one that was considered to be the world's authority on the Quran in the 1990s and he had put out 300 videos those old VHS videos that we used to use, 300 of them all supporting the Quran in the 1990s.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: And he had put out 300 videos Remember those old VHS videos that we used to use, 300 of them all supporting the Quran.
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: So his disciples came to me and said would you debate him on this material?
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: I said yeah.
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: So we went to Cambridge University in August of 1995 and we did a two-hour debate and I gave 10 historical challenges.
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: Those 10 historical challenges I'll give today.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: I haven't changed.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: They're the same historical challenges.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: He could not answer one and his response was okay, everything you're throwing at me comes from silence and the absence of evidence does not prove the evidence of absence and I said, okay, that's true, he'd had me, he caught me on that.
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: I had no evidence, neither did he.
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: But that doesn't prove that it's wrong.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: It's just we haven't found the evidence yet.
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: We couldn't find Muhammad anywhere.
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: We couldn't find Mecca anywhere.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: We couldn't find the Quran, the book, the man and the place.
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: Those are pretty essential in order to support Islam.
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: In the same way, that would be essential for us our book, our man and our place.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: If we could not find the Bible or even Jerusalem in the first century, to say nothing of the person named Jesus in the first century, how would we defend him?
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: So we were asking things that had already been asked of us and I said, okay, I don't have the evidence yet, but that's 1995.
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: We're now in 2024.
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: Look at the evidence we have found.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: Everything has completely changed.
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: We now know who Muhammad was.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: We even know where he came from.
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: We now know where the Quran came from.
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: We know where it was.
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: We also know how Mecca began.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: All of this I can now say, 25, 30 years later, wow.
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: So we now have the evidence.
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: So now, no longer are we arguing from silence.
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: Guess, who's arguing from silence?
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: Now they are.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: Everything they have is on silence, but that's just to get your whet, your appetite, yeah.
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: All right, Jay, that's some interesting stuff.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: So I want to kick it off with the first question and the guys will jump in here at random.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: But you know, we really like to be kind of sort of street apologetics, in that we want to give the average man the ability to interact with Muslims Because, at the end of the day, right, our people can get head knowledge, but if they don't take it to people and share the gospel with them through it, then it's useless.
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: So how does someone respond to the person who gives this objection?
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: The Bible has been corrupted and the Quran, which is the miracle of Allah, has been perfectly preserved.
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: Okay, bible's been corrupted.
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: Let's put it in two ways.
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: I'm going to give you a Quran.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: Show me one verse that tells you that it supports what you've just said.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: Bingo, it's your turn.
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: Give me one verse, show me one reference that our Bible's been corrected.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: In fact, you're going to find just the opposite.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: You ready?
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you can't find any can you?
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: Well, my thing is that we can compare and see that there have been changes in the manuscripts.
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: Wait a minute.
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: Did Muhammad say it was corrupted?
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: Did the Quran say it was corrupted?
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: You're going to go with what the Quran says, right?
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: Not what your opinion is.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: Show me where it's been corrupted and when it was corrupted, according to your Quran and according to your prophet.
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: Well, we just look at the evidence just because it's silent.
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: All right, give me the evidence, show me where and when it's been corrupted Well there's been many examples with manuscripts and different things, like that Manuscript.
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: You want to talk about manuscripts?
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: So here we're going to go.
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: Are you ready?
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: Changes variants in the manuscripts.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: What changes and where?
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: Oh, all over the place.
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: Give me an example.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: I'm waiting this and see, this is exactly how Muslims respond.
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: They have no idea what they're talking.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: They've heard it on the internet from people like Jamal Badawi, but no one's ever asked it.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: But see, what I'm doing is I'm saying go back to your foundations, because everything you're going to claim comes from this book.
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: Say, yes, you know that.
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, you better.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: Otherwise, it's your opinion.
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: I don't care a dilliswad to know what your Quran says.
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: I want to see if the Quran agrees with what you've said, because you cannot go against the Quran.
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: Let me tell you what the Quran says about my Bible.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: Are you ready?
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, chapter I want to start with.
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: Let's start with chapter 21.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: In chapter 21, it says for all Muslims if you have any question, go to the people of the book, because they've been given the Tawrat in the Injil for you.
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: In chapter 4, verse 136, the Quran says oh Muslims, I have given you both the Tawrat and the Injil and your Quran for you.
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: In chapter 5, verse 36 and 37, it says oh Christians that is sitting right here Go to that which God has given you, the Injil, and use it, for that is what you are to defend yourself, our Injil we're to go to.
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: Now I want to ask you.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: I've just given you four references.
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: So this is the Quran commanding the Bible.
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: Naming the Bible, naming the Taurat and the angel.
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: The Taurat is the books of Moses and the angel is the gospel of Jesus Christ.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: So it's giving both the Old and New Testament.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: So I'm just asking you now can you now show me a one reference anywhere in the Quran that says that the books have been corrupted?
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: I'm going to give you one.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: I'm going to help you out, since you're sitting there kind of gobsmacked and you don't know what you're doing.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, help me.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: Here you go, Ray you ready.
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: Chapter 2, verse 79.
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: Open it up.
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: Oh, you don't have a Quran, Isn't that interesting?
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: I've never seen a Muslim with a Quran in their hand.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: Yet all of us have Bibles.
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: So when you go home and go to your Quran, of course it's all going to be in Arabic, and you have no idea what it says because you don't speak Arabic, has it?
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: Okay, he does.
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: You're one of the few.
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: Okay, chapter 2, verse 79.
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: Read what it says.
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: Beware of those Jews who corrupt the book, who change it with their own hands.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: That sounds like corruption, right, until you read verse 78.
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: Why don't you read the verse before it?
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: There are those Jews who know not the book.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: They write with their own hands and call it the book.
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: What do you think that's referring to Jews who do not know the book?
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: The book would be their own scriptures, so they write with their own hand and call it the book.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: Beware of those Jews who write their book with their own hands.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: That's the Apocrypha writings, that's the Talmud, that's the Mishnah, of which every Jew knows.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: You doves are not Scripture.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: You separate the Talmud and the Mishnah from Scripture itself.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: Now I just want to ask you have you read the stories of Abraham in chapter 21 in the Quran?
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: Have you read the stories of Solomon and Sheba in chapter 27 in the Quran?
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: Take a look, those are part of those Talmud and Mishnah stories.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: Ooh, too, too, too too.
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: Those are the very stories that chapter 2, verse 79 warns you about, and they're right all the way through the Quran.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: Chapter 5, verse 31 and 32, the story of Cain and Abel that comes from the Targum of Jonathan ben Uzziah, written in the 2nd century.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: What's it doing?
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: In the Quran it says and it warns you against that.
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: That's not warning you against the Bible.
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: It's warning you against these apocryphal writings written by Jews.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: They write it with their own hands and then they call it scripture.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: Bingo, the Quran's full of it.
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: Basically, it's an own goal.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: You've just proved that the Quran is corrupted, not the Bible goal.
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: That's a very British term.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: Isn't it Good stuff?
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: I want to learn that or whatever I like.
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: That.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: That's my signature.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: That's a good apologetic tool.
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: So dealing with a salvific discussion with a Muslim.
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: How do I discuss salvific grace?
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: How do they view grace and how do I talk about biblical grace?
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: This is a great question, and it really is at the foundations of everything we believe.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: Let me ask you this Every religion made by man, how would they say, we are saved by our works.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: You work your way off, yeah, and Islam follows an exact same paradigm, which suggests to you it's a man-made religion, just like every other religion.
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: And if you look in Islam, it's very clear that you work off your faith by doing things.
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: You do what they call the five practices deen and these are the five things you must do all the time.
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: And then you have six beliefs, the iman.
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: So you just work away, work away and basically, when you get to heaven, you are when you get, not to heaven when you get to paradise, but you're outside of paradise.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: Even before you're outside of paradise, you are.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: As you die.
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: Records are taken off of both of your shoulders Now, every one of you.
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: When you're born, you have an angel sitting on that shoulder and you have another angel sitting on that shoulder and this angel over here is adding up all your baraka, baraka, baraka, baraka, baraka, barakah, barakah, barakah, barakah, which are your blessings, the good deeds you have done.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: That angel sorry, that's your left shoulder On that shoulder is the barakah.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: On the left shoulder is all the haram, haramah, all the bad deeds you have done in records.
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: So when you die, those records are taken up, they're put on a scale and hopefully your barakah outweighs your bad deeds.
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: If your barakah outweighs them, then you go across a sharp, real thin bridge over into paradise.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: Underneath of you is Gehenna, which is a hell of bubbling pus, hot bubbling pus, and as you're walking across, only those who have more good deeds than bad deeds.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: As you're walking across, allah can throw you down to hell at any time.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: No one knows whether they're going to make it across.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: Not even Muhammad knew whether he was going to make it a cross.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: Now, doesn't that suggest that this is as man-made as you can get?
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: Because all of these references are Zoroastrian Sirat even the word sirat is a Zoroastrian word for the bridge.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: Even these recording angels, these malakas, these are Zoroastrian and most all of this comes straight out of Zoroastrianism.
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: So it's been borrowed from the Zoroastrian.
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: Who do you think would control all the land where Islam began?
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: Who do you think the Persians were?
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: They were Zoroastrians.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: The Sassanid Empire, but more than that.
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: When you stop and ask yourself, if this is just man-made.
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: What is it we've got that they don't have?
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: And the answer is there's not a thing we can do about our salvation.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: There's not a thing why?
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: Because, remember, it was only one sin that separated us from God.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: See, and this is what's missing in Islam, they have no idea that at one time we were in God's presence.
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: And we know that because in Genesis 3 it's very clear that God was walking in the cool of the day.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: There it is in verse 8 and 9.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: He was calling out to Adam and Eve where are you?
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: Hold on a minute In the cool of the day.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: That means he probably did this every day, Calling out where are you.
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: He didn't know where they were, of course.
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: He knew where they were.
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: They were hiding behind the tree.
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: He was omnipotent.
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: So why was he calling out to them?
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: Well, because he wanted a response from them.
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: There was a relationship there from the very beginning.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: I love that verse 8 and 9.
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: Because our God enters our time and space, comes down our direction, walks with us.
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: That means you better have a pair of legs, talk to them.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: You better also have a pair of lungs and a mouth.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: He can take on human form anytime he wants and his calling out to us wants a response from us Because something went wrong.
• 22:18
  Speaker 4: So how do you introduce then?
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: Grace to them, to get them to understand.
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: So something went wrong.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: I just stay in that same chapter and I go to verse 15.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: They were the ones that had sinned right Now, suddenly, everything is changed.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: Now there is burning pains for women, now there was thorns and thistles.
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: All of humanity was changed.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: Also, all the physical environment was changed just by one sin, by one sin and, most importantly, they got to be thrown out of God's presence.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: No longer are they in God's presence, which pretty much eradicates everything.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: How do we get back in God's presence again?
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: I want to get back there where in Adam and Eve, where God gives the introduction right there, without even saying goodbye to them.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: He then turns to Eve.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: Has to turn to Eve because she's the one from when sin came into the world.
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: It has to be through a woman that sin salvation is going to come through.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: Oh, I love that.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: So he turns to Eve and says, from your line, he that means it's going to be a male is going to crush the head of Satan.
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: It's going to destroy this evil that has come in, but he's going to be bruised, something's going to happen to him.
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: He has to pay a price, and that's where Leviticus 17 comes in, because we know what that price is Without atonement.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: There must be blood shed, life must be given, and it came from he that was going to be in the line of Eve.
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: Now then I run to Isaiah.
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: Because Isaiah then helps me here, because Isaiah says very clearly he said this will be a sign.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: A virgin so not just any woman said this will be a sign A virgin so not just any woman a virgin.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: Now, here Muslims should prick up, because everybody knows well, at least in my world, that virgins don't conceive.
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: Am I correct?
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: Just say yes, except Muslims.
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: Muslims know there is one.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: No, in the Quran, in chapter 19, verse 20 of the Quran, there is one virgin who has conceived.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: Isn't that great that God puts these little gems into the Quran to help us?
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: And that virgin is Mary.
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: So when Isaiah says a virgin will conceive, wake up, muslim, this is for you, and bear a son.
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: Are you listening?
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: This is the one he promised way back in Genesis 15.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: And he shall be called Emmanuel, god with us.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: That means he's going to be with us when he does it, that means our God enters time and space, unlike your God.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: So just use these little bridges when you're talking to Muslims, because what you're doing is.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: You're showing that it's not something that we're going to do.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: It's something that God promised us from the very beginning.
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: He was going to send, through a virgin age, somebody who was going to be with us and he was going to take us on that sin.
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: Ooh, I love that, because that means Jesus fulfills everything that he promised from the very beginning.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: Therefore, I don't have to work it off.
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: I'm not there.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: I don't care dilly-swat about all this badaka, badaka, badaka, badaka, because there's no way I can get back into God's presence because I have sinned and remember there's only one sin that threw us out of God's presence.
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: How can I get back into God's presence?
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: Because we sin all the time.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: There's only one who is the sinless one habakkuk, chapter 1, verse 13.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: Jesus habakkuk says for god cannot stand to have sin in his presence, even one sin.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: We can't be in god's presence even with one sin you got a question yeah, I'm just curious.
• 25:14
  Speaker 5: you know, I've I've had a couple conversations with, uh, muslim neighbors, friends, things of that nature, and one of the things that I always see is there's this, there's, there's this wall as soon as we start talking about God became man, or even the closeness of God.
• 25:31
  Speaker 5: I often notice there's this distinction.
• 25:33
  Speaker 5: When I talk about God as the father who knows us, who loves us, god as the father who became man for us, us who loves us, god is the father who became man for us.
• 25:45
  Speaker 5: There's this like it's just so hard for them to comprehend the closeness, the relational availability, the love that God has shown us through his incarnation.
• 25:51
  Speaker 5: How do you one, do you find that?
• 25:53
  Speaker 5: And then how do you, how do you bridge that gap in a very real way with them?
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that the biggest problem is with Muslims especially.
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: They have this view of their own father and their own husband and their own brother.
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: That's almost reflective of that kind of view of God.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: So when you look at the fathers and the brothers and all the males in every Muslim society, they have complete, absolute control.
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: Women don't, because it reflects the kind of God they serve.
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: And our God, the God that we serve, comes down our level, walks and talks with us, sacrifices himself for us, dies for us.
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: The least shall be last and last shall be east.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: It has that paradigm.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: It's a completely different paradigm and that's why our fatherhoods, our fathers in Christianity, reflect the kind of God we serve.
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: Isn't that interesting?
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: I love it.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: So how do you get them to see that?
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: In those kind of conversations, I want to just show them and say do you realize that almost everything that you see in your own family reflects the kind of God you serve?
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: Is that really attractive?
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: Wouldn't you rather have a God who is like me, who wrestles with Jacob and lets Jacob win?
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: Don't you do that?
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: Hasn't your husband done that with your children?
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: Don't you let your child win, even though you're the stronger with your children Isn't?
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: Don't you let your child win, even though you're the stronger?
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: Isn't that something that says something about the kind of God we serve?
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: Isn't that a lot more attractive to you, and wouldn't you think that that would be a kind of God who created us from the very beginning?
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: Wouldn't he then want to make sure that he rectifies the problem that we created?
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: Isn't that what he's saying right there in Genesis 3, verse 15?
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: I'm going to send you Now.
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: You're not going to do this.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: You screwed it up.
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: There's no way you can rectify that which you screwed up.
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: I'm going to rectify it for you, and I'm going to send someone from the line of Eve and he's going to take on that sin for you.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: Whoa, what a kind of God is that?
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: That's the kind of God everybody should be attracted to.
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: So Trinity and they say this is all fabricated.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: You don't see the word Trinity anywhere in the Bible.
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: This is just a man-made thing.
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: The Jews didn't believe in the Trinity.
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: This is ridiculous.
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: Okay, I put it right back in their laps.
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: Okay, so how do you define God Tauhid?
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: You're an Arab speaker.
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: Tauhid means the oneness.
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: And you believe in the oneness.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: Show me it in the Quran where it says that word, God is one.
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: That's a known thing.
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: Show me one word where it says Tauhid in the Quran it doesn't exist, Bingo.
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: So obviously it's not a word in the Quran.
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: You're looking for the Bible.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: The word itself was created by Tertullian 185 years after it, 185 AD.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: So obviously this is a word to define a concept that's right through the Bible, In the same way that Tauhid.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: Your Tauhid is a concept that was created many, many years later.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: In fact, Tauhid take a look and see when it was first introduced in Islamic theology.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: It's not there at the very beginning, except with Abdul Malik is the one that first demands it.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: And Abdul Malik that's 60 years after Muhammad died.
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: That's finally where we see it, on the Dome of the Rock and on his coins Laila ilala Muhammadur Rasulullah.
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: There is the shahada.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: That's the first time we see it.
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: Well, that takes him 60 years to invent that, proving that this was nothing, even not that was even Islamic.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: That had nothing to do with Islam.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: That was an anti-Trinitarian attack against the Trinitarians, Byzantine Trinitarians.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: So this whole idea of Tauhid I'm throwing right back in your lap.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: I want you to now tell me where is it on Muhammad's lip?
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: Where is it in the Quran?
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: Well, it's an obvious, clear teaching of Islam.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: Oh, you have just now answered your question.
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: Bingo Gotcha.
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah, what strategies help shift the debate to a gospel discussion?
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: At what point you're engaged in an apologetical sword fight and you know that it's the gospel, that it's the power of God unto salvation?
• 29:31
  Speaker 4: What strategy do you implement to get?
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: to that.
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: I think in every question that you throw out, there has to always end with the gospel.
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: So the strategy is make sure you end with the gospel.
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: That's the last thing they hear, and I think we all have to learn that craft.
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: It's difficult, I understand it, but in order for them to even hear the gospel, you're going to have to break down some walls, and that's the problem we're having Most Christians that go out on the streets to work with Muslims.
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: They want to start with the gospel, when they don't realize that every time you say what the Bible says, immediately you say well, hold there, you're talking about a corrupted book.
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: So you've got to start with corruption.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: You've got to start with that.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: That's why I said at the very beginning I want you to look open your Koran.
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: I want you to show me where that corruption is, where and when.
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: And you weren't able to do that.
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: In fact, you hadn't even looked at your Quran, because most of you have never looked at that.
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: But if you're going to talk about corruption, then throw it right back in their laps and say listen.
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: You have the same problem In chapter 16, verse 101,.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: You have in your Quran that there is that with that which we give, we give something better.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: So that which we give mansuk, that means in the Quran, we give something better.
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: Nasik, now you went mansook and nasik, as you're Arabic speaking.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: That means it's weak versus strong.
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: So we give a better verse that's stronger within the Quran.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: Well, that's corruption, right there.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: So the whole law of abrogation in the Quran is corruption.
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: You start with it.
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: So now answer me, can you see, we don't have that problem in the Bible.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: We don't have these contradictions in the Bible.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: What we do have is progressive revelation.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: So when we have the laws that Moses had to follow, that's the law that Jesus talks about in Matthew 5, when he says for I have not come to destroy the law, I've come to fulfill it In verse 19,.
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: Does he not say that the old law?
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: What does it say?
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: He gives six examples of what he's talking about the old law, the Mosaic law, eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth.
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: But now I say turn the other cheek.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: Is that a contradiction?
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: Is that a corruption?
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: Did God change his mind?
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: No, he's fulfilling what he said.
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: Inills in himself, for you have heard it say to love your friends and hate your enemy verse 43.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: But now I say to love your enemies.
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: Not a corruption, not a change of mind, not two different gods.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: He is now fulfilling it in the person of Jesus Christ.
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: That's why we don't follow Mosaic law.
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: Thank God, we don't follow Mosaic law.
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: So what I've done is I've now just taken what they say is corruption and I'm finishing up with the gospel.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: Always make sure you end with the gospel to show that we have by far much more logical material and it stands to reason and therefore, when they ever have a problem with anything that they're going to have, like corruption of Scripture or the Trinity, or can God become a man, or can God enter time and space, make sure that you say yes, he can enter time and space.
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: So every time they ask the question, make sure you end with the gospel.
• 32:14
  Speaker 5: Jay, that's really good.
• 32:15
  Speaker 5: Let me shift gears a little bit here, because this is something that I've observed over the years and I'm always really curious about love hearing people's takes on it, which is in this day and age, post 9-11,.
• 32:24
  Speaker 5: We're in this weird cultural moment where your average left-leaning, non-religious person sees Christianity as offensive, as something that is potentially a danger to their well-being and their living, and yet also would defend Muslim and Islam in a very different kind of way.
• 32:49
  Speaker 5: It's almost like Islam is seen as this favorable, oppressed religion that we need to show respect to and not call extremists and things of that nature, but Christians, on the other hand, it's like, oh man, they're the actual problem.
• 33:02
  Speaker 5: Why do you think that is and how do you go about navigating those kinds of conversations?
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: You're asking a huge question and there's no one real answer I can't just give you in five minutes.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: What I can say is the narrative.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: We're not in the public sphere like we should be, we need to be.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: That's why I like what you guys are doing.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: I think, living Waters, you are in the public sphere, you're actually asking these questions, but on this very subject and we're really talking about the October 7th, the whole thing, what has happened since October 7th?
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: Because that's really what we're engaging with us right now why is it?
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: The left has really jumped on the from a river to the sea.
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: Palestine will be free.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: And why has that become the narrative for not only the left?
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: It's become the narrative for almost the Democratic Party and almost anybody who's from that ilk, and it's really infected into the universities.
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: And I think a lot of this has to do with ignorance.
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: They have no idea what Hamas is about.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: They have no idea what that term, even that phrase.
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: They have no idea that they're calling for genocide when, in the same tone, they say we want nothing to do with genocide, yet they're using the very term for genocide.
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: They have no idea why October 7th happened.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: Probably most of you don't know why October had to happen and they don't pull back to see what's happening geopolitically in that part of the world.
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: So there's no way I can answer that in five minutes.
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: What I can say is we need to start confronting this and just holding it accountable and say listen, do you realize what you're saying?
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: Do you realize who you're supporting?
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: Do you realize that nobody, even in the Sunni world?
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: In the Sunni world, there are nobody who's demonstrating, like you're, demonstrating, for Hamas.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: Notice, there are no demonstrations in Damascus or in Amman or in Cairo supporting Hamas.
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: Why aren't there?
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: Why is it there's not one country in the Middle East that is asking for Palestinians to come to their countries, when they share the same language, they share the same religion, they share the same economies?
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: They're right next door to each other.
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: Why is it that all these Palestinians are going to have to come to Europe and the United States and not to those host countries?
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: Because they don't want one of those Palestinians.
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: They want nothing to do with Hamas and, privately speaking, they're all happy that Israel is shutting down Hamas, because no one's bothered to look and see what Hamas represents or who they are and who exactly are their.
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: Well, who are the ones who are funding them.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: Jay, I mentioned earlier.
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: I asked you the question regarding, you know, the Bible versus the Quran, and obviously Islam looks to the Quran as its miracle, the validation of its religion.
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: Are there any practical things that you point to to show Muslims that there are contradictions in the Quran or that it's not valid?
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: I mean, I don't, you can.
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: We have three different kinds of polemics that we use on the Quran.
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: One is what we call the internal polemics, which is when you just open its pages and show all the contradictions and I don't mind doing that.
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: I could do that till the cows come home.
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: I've kind of stopped doing that.
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: I could do that till the cows come home.
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: I've kind of stopped doing that anymore.
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: The reason why is most of the people.
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: The first thing they say is you don't know Arabic, you don't understand the context.
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: Now, you could do it because you know Arabic, but even you don't know Quranic Arabic and they will still hammer you because your Arabic is not the right accent or the right pronunciation.
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: Whatever, they'll come back on you and that really shuts that down.
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: That's called the internal polemic, of looking at the Quran internally.
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: The second one is what we call cultural polemics, and that's where you look and see the ramification of what the Quran is doing around the world culturally, what it's doing socially, what it's doing with hygiene, what it's doing with relationships with women and all the rest.
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: That's the modern day cultural polemics.
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: And then there's a third, and that's what I use and that's the historical critique, so I don't even bother to open a page of the Quran.
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: I'm not interested in trying to find problems or contradictions internal contradictions, because I've never seen anybody converted by that.
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: What I would rather do is ask a much more fundamental question.
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: This is your book, this is your Quran, this is your primary revelation, and you say that it's eternal.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: It's always existed that every dot, every word, every letter is exactly the same as those in the eternal tablets.
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: If that is the case, why is it you have 30 different official Qurans with over 100,000 differences between them that you can memorize right now, today, you can pull them down off the internet Over 30 official Qurans.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: No two are alike.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: So which Quran are you talking about?
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: And these are all Arabic.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: These are all original Qurans, and this one that I have in my hand right now was written by a guy named Hufs in 796.
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: Muhammad died in 632.
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: Hufs lives in Kufa and his, which has now become the official one for the Saudi Arabian government.
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: When you look at the other 29 compared to it, there's over 100,000 different words, which means different meanings, which means different theologies, different doctrines.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: These are known as the Kirat argument.
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: Now answer me that one.
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: Wow, I threw it right back in your lap.
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, what do they say to that?
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: Well, they usually start going to ad hominem.
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's all ad hominem.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: They have no response.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: Listen, there was an interview that was done between two men Dr Yasir Qadhi, the world's leading authority on the Qirat he got his doctorate at Yale University on the Qirat, on this very problem and a guy named Muhammad Hijab, who's one of the biggest talking heads on the internet.
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: Muhammad Hijab from London.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: I know him personally.
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: We've debated many times and he saw us hold up 26 of these Qurans in 2016 at Speaker's Corner.
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: We bought them, we have them.
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: We now have all 30 of them Wow.
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: And we just held them up for the whole world to see and at that time, we only knew of 93,000 differences.
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: Now it's over 100,000.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: And we just held them up and he was right there watching and he said to all of us come away, come away, come to me, I will explain what they're showing to you.
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: I'll show you what they're saying.
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: That was 2016.
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: In June, the 8th 2020, he finally went on the internet.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: I was told about it.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: I said, jay, you need to watch this.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: David Wood told me to watch it, so I watched him and the first thing he did when he got Yasir Qadhi there's a Zoom interview, so it was on both their sites.
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: He put his hand out there like this and he says here's a blank Musaf.
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: Which Quran is it that's in heaven?
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: Is it Hafs?
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: Is it Warsh?
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: Is it Qasai?
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: He started naming about four or five of these different Qurans that we had found, all of which are memorized by different people, different communities all over the world, no two of which are alike.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: He he says which one is the one that was revealed to Muhammad before he could finish the question yes, the crisis.
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: Do not ask me this question.
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: We do not talk about this in public.
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: Turn off the cameras.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: And then he went on to say because the cameras were still on.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: He then went on to say this has been the most difficult question for the last thousand years.
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: Al Jazeera, al Jazeera in 1500s.
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: We're talking about the 1500s, 800 years after.
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: Muhammad Al-Jazari spent his whole life trying to answer this question.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: He wrote 80 articles and he could not come to a conclusion on this.
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: And so Muhammad said well, was this your crisis of faith that you had at Yale University?
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: He said no, no, not crisis, crisis of knowledge.
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: He said here in the West, the scholars have come leaps and bounds in the last hundred years and they're looking at us Muslims like the Emperor, with no clothes.
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: Oh, I love that.
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: He says we have a respect for the Quran.
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: There are certain questions we don't ask of the Quran.
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: We put a red line, he said, and we don't go beyond that red line.
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: But at Yale University there are no red lines.
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: You can ask any questions.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: You want.
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting, we don't ask any questions of the Quran and the question would arise which Quran?
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: That's all he was asking.
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: He spent 28 minutes trying to get him to answer this.
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: Finally, at the end of 28 minutes, I've got it all.
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: It's right in my computer, right there in my bag.
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: You can get it.
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: I'll give it to you.
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: After 28 minutes of asking, finally, he put his hand out one second.
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: He said I need an answer.
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: Which Quran is the eternal Quran?
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: Which is the one that's in heaven?
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: Which is the one that was given to Muhammad over 22 years?
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: Which is the one that Uthman finalized in 652?
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: Yasir Qayyip says listen, they're all the Quran, a little bit of this, a little bit of that.
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: I started clapping.
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: I said you don't realize what you have just said.
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: Now, within two weeks, if you'd go up to their channels, their YouTube, both of them had it on their channels.
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: Within two weeks, there were hundreds and hundreds of comments and hundreds of Muslims saying I have now left Islam because of this.
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: You have been telling us there's not one word, not one letter different, that every Quran is the same and that you cannot change it.
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: Because, see, the quran makes that claim in chapter uh, chapter 98, verse 21 and 27 this is the eternal quran.
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: That's there.
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: It says that in chapter chapter 10, verse 15, and chapter 18, verse 27, it says no one can change one word or one letter.
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: Why?
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: Because chapter 15, verse 9, says that allah protects it.
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: So if allah protects it, how can man change that which is eternal?
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: Ooh, it's the Quran that makes that claim.
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: And now here they were saying that there were hundreds, thousands of changes.
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: So within two weeks, hundreds have left Islam.
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: They said I'm leaving Islam and my blood is on your shoulders.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: They finally had to stop all the comments Within two months, by August of 2020,.
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: They had to delete both that.
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: They didn't let you to be after both their channels, but I have it.
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad we went there, because that to me, I don't know what you guys think that's massive.
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: That's huge Because, again, because Muslims and I mean massive in terms of using that as an apologetic, because they put so much stock in the Quran and to be able to demonstrate that, I think is huge, huge, it gets even better Does it?
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: Look at the story, look at the names of those 30.
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: But don't just look at their names.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: Look at when they died.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: No, those 30 all come from five cities Mecca, medina, basra, kufa and Damascus.
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: All of them died between the 8th and 9th century.
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: Not one of them was living at the time Muhammad lived.
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: Not one of them was even in the same century as Muhammad.
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: None of them knew Muhammad.
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: So how could they have been writing all these Qurans?
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: All of them in Arabic?
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: No two are alike.
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: So to this day, jay, when you might hear different Muslims quote different passages from the Quran, or the same passages but different Muslims, they will sound different sometimes, or there'll be differences in some of them.
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: Different words, different phrases Wow, over 100,000 different words.
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: So, ray, as we start to wrap up here, how key is it, though, to get to the gospel?
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: Because we can get into apologetics.
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: We can go back and forth, and how would you do it?
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: When you've gone through, let's say you've worked through all these things, now you get to the place where they're ready to hear the presentation of the gospel, what would you say?
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: Well, I've spoken to a lot of Muslims and I've found they all have one thing in common, that is, their works, righteousness, religions, which is what we've established, and that they rely on their repentance to save them on judgment day.
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: That's going to be their foundation.
• 43:29
  Speaker 3: I take them through the commandments, as Jesus took the rich young ruler through the commandments.
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: Get rid of their self-righteousness.
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: They've lied, they've stolen, they've blasphemed, they've looked with lust, some of them committed adultery, some have fornicated and they say but God is merciful and he'll see my repentance.
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: So, knowing that's going to happen almost every time, I go right to this analogy and I say, muhammad, great to meet you.
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: Before we talk about this, I want to ask you a question.
• 43:53
  Speaker 3: If a man's committed rape and murder and he says, judge, I'm guilty, I admit that, but I'm really sorry and I won't do it again, will the judge let him go?
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: And Muhammad says, no, he won't, because the judge is good, he must see that justice is done.
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: So I repeat it, because I know where he's going to go when he comes under conviction.
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: I say let's go through that again.
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: If a man's committed rape and murder, very serious crimes, is it good enough to say I'll never do it again.
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: I'm very sorry.
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: Of course he should be sorry and of course he should never do it again.
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: So repentance is not going to get him out of man's court and it's not going to get him out of god's court on judgment day.
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: So we go through the commandments and, predictably, he looks and says Allah is merciful, he will see my repentance.
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: And I say you remember, we've established that won't work in man's court and it's not going to work on judgment day.
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: You need something else.
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: And then they'll say what do I need?
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: What you do is you give the Philippian jailer his own little earthquake.
• 44:50
  Speaker 3: You cause Felix to tremble, you let fear fill his heart because he's going to go to hell.
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: If he's relying on his repentance, it cannot save.
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: He needs something else.
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: So I don't tell him Jesus is God, because Jesus said to Peter who do men say that I am?
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: And Jesus said some say you're Muhammad, sorry.
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: Some say you're… Whoa.
• 45:12
  Speaker 5: Wow, I've got.
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: Muhammad on the brain, yeah.
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: And he says but who do you say that I am?
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: He said you're the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: And then Jesus said blessed are you, peter, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father, who is in heaven.
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: So I don't see it as my job to convince any Muslim of the deity of Jesus.
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: That's going to get me in trouble.
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: I'm even careful when I talk about the cross because I know that's going to offend him.
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: I hold it back and I do what we do in our episode why Christianity.
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: Remember the why Christianity episode?
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: It's our television program.
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: It's also in a little booklet called why Christianity that's sold over a million copies.
• 45:46
  Speaker 3: And it gives a man on a plane the offer of four gifts a stack of gold, stack of diamonds, stack of silver or a parachute, which he's going to take.
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: He's going to take the gold or the silver, but then you put him in a scenario where he has to jump out of the plane because it's crashing.
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: Which gift would you like?
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: The gold, the silver, the diamonds or the parachute?
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: Now he's going to want the parachute because he has seen his danger.
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: So what the moral law does is.
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: It puts the sinner in terrible danger under God's wrath, heading for hell, and it offers him a savior, a parachute.
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: His good works can't save him, but the parachute can, and the Bible says put on the Lord Jesus Christ.
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: And my confidence is, when I go through the gospel, that Christ died for our sins.
• 46:30
  Speaker 3: He paid the fine for the law that we'd violated.
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: Is the gospel's the power of God to salvation?
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: It's the gospel that does the work, that's the understanding that he needs, and so that's what I do and I just leave it in God's court because I don't want my head chopped off.
• 46:45
  Speaker 3: So I'm not going to get into an argument with him over these issues that he finds contentious.
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, wow.
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: So, jay, as we draw to a close here, I want you to give your information so people know how to follow your ministry.
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: This has been great information today and a big takeaway.
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: But how did the Lord protect you all those years?
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: Because, I mean, I can't imagine being out there, death threats coming your way that was my thought too.
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: Jack, you're a very courageous man.
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: No, I'm not.
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: No, listen, I'm not doing anything more than Paul did.
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but look, we've all ended up.
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: We'll probably end up there too.
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: I think we're all called out.
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: Listen, when Christ was commissioning the 12 disciples in Matthew 10, notice what he said to them.
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: I'm sending out his lamb before wolves.
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: And then he promised them five things.
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: If you go in my name, you're going to be hated.
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: How many of us have been hated?
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: If you go in my name, you're going to be persecuted.
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: How many of us have been persecuted?
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: If you go in my name, you're going to be jailed.
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: You're going to be flogged.
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: You're going to be killed.
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: That's quite a commissioning.
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: Were you commissioned like that?
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: That's quite a commissioning.
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: Were you commissioned like that?
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: I wasn't.
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: And then he says in verse 34, for I have not come to bring peace, I've come to bring the sword, to set father against son and mother against daughter.
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: And then he says in verse 38, if you are not willing to bear my cross, you're not worthy to be my disciple.
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: So if that is their commissioning, listen, every one of the disciples was hated.
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: They were all persecuted.
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: Every one of them was put in jail.
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: They were all flogged and every disciple except for John was killed.
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: So why are we even asking that question?
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: Who cares?
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: That's our commissioning.
• 48:20
  Speaker 3: Well, my favorite verse is if you're persecuted in one city, flee to the next.
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: Before they've got to kill me, they've got to catch me Understood.
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: And he did that, and that's he went to the next one.
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: He was the first basket case.
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: That's why I'm here not in London right now.
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: Wow, they're basket case.
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: You're right Off the basket.
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, you do flee.
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: You have to be wise, of course, but I don't worry about that and I listen.
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: I have.
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: I don't know if I should say this on air, but when I was in London back in the early 2010, maybe 2011, there was a guy, a Muslim, that came to Speaker's Corner to look.
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: He came to Britain to look for a wife and Shabir Ali, who was his teacher, said when you're in London, make sure you look up Jay Smith.
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: He's a good friend of mine.
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: So he came to Speaker's Corner and saw me on the ladder and he wanted to have dinner with me and he was shaking, he was scared.
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: He had no idea what to say to me.
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: Well, didn't you see them?
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: I said what are you talking about?
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: Didn't you see the two men in the trees?
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: I said what?
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: Two men in the trees?
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: So we have these oak trees above us, speaker's Corner.
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: They're big branches and we sat under their shade.
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: He said these two men?
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: I said well, describe them to me.
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: He said well, they were sitting in the bench States that are about five hours behind.
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: They're praying for my safety.
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: They're praying that I preach the gospel.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: They're praying that Muslims come to Christ.
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: You're seeing the answer to their prayers.
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: That's Harry and Larry.
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: They've been up there all these years.
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: I've never seen them, but God wanted you to see them because you have no index for them.
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: Now, about two years later, we have these what we call impromptu debates.
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: We go for five minutes and the Muslim goes for five minutes and I say to the camera you all know where I am.
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: I'm going to be here next week.
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: You can come and take me on.
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: I have another ladder, let's do these five-minute debates.
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: And so maybe four or five show up and they get up on the ladder and and we just go for five minutes.
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: Five minutes, five minutes, and they last about 15 minutes.
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: We can go for two hours.
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: And after I'd done four of these debates, I was exhausted.
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: I was coming off the ladder and suddenly these Arab guys just start coming and punching me, punching me, punching me.
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: A big black man put his arm around me.
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: He says come on, jay, let's go.
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: So we walked out.
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: He had his arm, he took the punches for me.
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: I turned around to thank him and he had disappeared.
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: So that's Barry, my black angel.
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: So I have Harry and Larry in the trees and Barry on the ground.
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: So I don't worry about it.
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: I preached at Hyde Park and I found it very difficult because the massive Muslims that are there, they just surround you and shut you down.
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: And I found that very difficult because I wasn't used to that.
• 50:45
  Speaker 3: I had Speaker's Corner in New Zealand for 12 years, almost every day, and I had an ordered crowd and regular hecklers and I didn't have a mass of Muslims shouting down.
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: Well, I did have a few, there's a solution.
• 50:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, what's that?
• 50:57
  Speaker 3: Bring a ladder.
• 51:03
  Speaker 3: I always have a ladder, get up on a ladder you control the narrative when you're on the ladder, that's true.
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: And also make sure I'm next to you because I have five liter lungs Five liter lungs, I can out shout everybody.
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: I have a huge volume.
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: It's not right, francesco.
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: Francesco knows.
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: I have loud lungs.
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: I wonder, jay, if your angels Harry and Larry have met my angels Rob and Bob.
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: Rob and.
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: Bob, we need to get them together.
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: I'm sure they know each other.
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: They're probably talking right now, having coffee above us right now.
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, well, this has been fascinating and we could obviously go on for hours on end with you.
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for taking the time.
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: Tell people how they can connect with you and support your ministry, if you want to go up on YouTube.
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: If you want to go up on YouTube, it's Fander Films P-F-A-N-D-E-R.
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: It's named after Dr Karl Fander, that's why it's got the German spelling.
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: Fander Films is our YouTube channel.
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: I have about 110 10,000 subscribers on it and all we do is this historical critique.
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: I don't use the other type of polemics anymore, I'm just using the third kind, the external polemics, historical polemics.
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: But then also go up on Fander Center Fander Center with P again, org.
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: Fandercenterorg.
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: All my papers and PowerPoints and stuff are up there.
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: And also Dr Pat Andrews.
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: Dr Pat Andrews is he's got an eidetic memory.
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: This guy is amazing.
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: He's British and he has a doctorate also in Islamic.
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: He does much of the research for me.
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: I have about seven researchers around, None here in the United States, they're all in Europe.
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: And many of them.
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: Is there a way for people to give on your website?
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, go up to PayPal and give up there or patron, become a patron on Fander Films.
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: Just go up to the button where it says PayPal or Patreon.
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: You can be Patreon, saint.
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: Well, make sure to check it out, friends, this is a ministry worthy of support and a cause definitely worthy of our prayers as well.
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: So thank you so much, jay.
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: We were blessed to have you and hope we can do this again sometime.
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, let's do it All right.
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: Take care, friends.
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us.
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters podcast, where Dr J knows what he's doing.