Latest / The Wellness Esquire Podcast: Happy, Healthy, Successful Lawyers / Harassed by the Judge She Clerked For: Aliza Shatzman on Fighting Back

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Harassed by the Judge She Clerked For: Aliza Shatzman on Fighting Back · The Wellness Esquire Podcast: Happy, Healthy, Successful Lawyers

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm so excited to have this conversation because it's it's so important.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: And when I learned about your work your story and your work with the legal accountability project, I was honestly floored that I hadn't learned about what you were doing earlier.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: And we have to know about what you're doing, both because you're doing amazing work, which we're of course gonna talk about, but also because a lot of women don't have women in particular, but everybody, often are dealing in law with all sorts of discrimination and harassment and mistreatment, and also just not knowing how to navigate certain situations.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: And people need to know what resources they have and where to go and who's doing work to address some of those issues.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I will tell you on the women front, and for you to talk about this when we record, um, we just filed our first Supreme Court amigos brief with the Georgia Women's Bar in Karen Strickland's case.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: She's the former federal public defender suing the judiciary.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: So okay, fantastic.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, so anyways, it's it's great.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I have us recording, and then I have an editor, so we'll we'll scratch out, you know, we can take out the closet stuff and I am a public figure.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: I assume that I'm always on the record.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: So don't you worry about it.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: Perfect, perfect.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: You're you're there for you on the record.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so before we get into the really important work that you do now with the legal accountability project, I want to start much earlier and ask you what drew you to law school in the first place?
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I went to Williams College in Western Massachusetts.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I was a golfer, uh, a poly science psych major.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: I went to college thinking I wanted to be a doctor.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: My mom is a doctor, and I thought I wanted to be an abortion provider.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, could not get through the science and was pretty clear early on being a doctor was not for me.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: So now um I'm my dog's dog tour.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: I give him all his meds and stuff.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm his favorite dog tour, but uh um, yeah.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: So anyway, I did an internship at Planned Parenthood summer after my freshman year of college, and that's where I got the kind of desire to go to law school.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: I've always been like a crusader against injustice.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: I've always believed very strongly in accountability.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's like a through line of my entire life.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I went to law school thinking I wanted to be a reproductive rights litigator.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: I had also done a couple other internships.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: I interned on the Hill a couple times, I interned at the National Women's Law Center.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what drew me to law school.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: But always very clearly focused on public service.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: I have spent no time in private practice.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: I've been a lifelong public servant.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: So okay, so you find your way to law school, you go through law school, you graduate, you start clerking.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me about that experience.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I will say, um, once I got to law school, I realized pretty quickly that I mean, I liked reproductive rights litigation, but I wanted to be in court.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: I got the trial attorney bug uh during my first internship at DOJ, back when DOJ was normal and had interns uh and you know, hired people.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I did four DOJ internships and then clerked in DC Superior Court because I wanted to be a homicide prosecutor in the DC U.S.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: Attorney's Office.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's a unique and special office, and I hope it will be again.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: They let young new prosecutors basically prosecute federal offenses.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: You start um in the Superior Court Division, which is where I clerked.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: You prosecute local offenses using the resources of a federal prosecutor's office.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I wanted to do.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it is is why I chose that unfortunate clerkship.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I started clerking in DC Superior Court in August of 2019.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: The judge I clerked for was a Washiu alum.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: I went to Washu Law.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's kind of how I found the clerkship.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um it went downhill very quickly.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's a story I've told thousands of times at this point.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I mean, I within the first couple weeks, the judge would kick me out of the courtroom, tell me that I made him uncomfortable, and that he just felt more comfortable with my male co-clerk, told me that I was bossy and aggressive and that I had personality issues.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: Today I found out that I passed a bar exam, so obviously big day in my life, uh, October of that year.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, he called me into his chambers, got in my face, and said, You're bossy.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I know bossy because my wife is bossy.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, and it's just a really devastating experience.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: My first job out of law school, um, I mean, I knew this was wrong, but I really didn't know what to do.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: Confided in some attorney mentors.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: This was 2019, so they advised me to stick it out.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, as we're gonna get to now, the culture has changed and probably wouldn't have been told that in 2026, but this was a while ago.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um so pandemic happens.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: I moved back to suburban Philadelphia to work remotely, stay with my parents.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, the judge basically ignores me for six weeks and he calls me up in late April, fires me over the phone, tells me I lack respect for him, but he doesn't want to get into it, and then he hangs up on me.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, reach out to the DC courts.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: They tell me there's nothing they can do.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: I should have known I was an at-will employee.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: Judges and clerks have a unique relationship.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, reach out to my law school, which you know, Washu really is one of the villains in my story.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, found out they knew this judge had harassed another Washu alum like a year before and opted not to share that with me because they wanted me to clerk.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: So this is obviously all really devastating.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: And as I said earlier, I've always believed really strongly in accountability, by which I mean punishment for people who do bad things.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I was already thinking I wanted to file a complaint, wanted to wait till I had a new job, because I was already thinking this judge might uh retaliate against me.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um prescient.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: So um start my new job, dream job, DC U.S.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: Attorney's Office a year later, moved back to DC.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: I was three weeks into that job when I received the really devastating news that altered the course of my life and career.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: I was told the judge gave a negative reference about me to the U.S.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: Attorney's Office that I would not be able to obtain a security clearance and that they were revoking my job offer.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: Wouldn't tell me what the judge had said, wouldn't let me see or dispute the reference, said it was final.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: Cried on the phone with D.C.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: courts, cried on the phone with the U.S.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: Attorney's Office.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, through my tears, I filed a complaint the very next day with the Judicial Conduct Commission in D.C., participated in the investigation into the now former judge.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, found out during that investigation that he was on administrative leave and under investigation for other misconduct.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: At the time he filed that negative reference, so legally, he probably should not have been giving references.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um U.S.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: Attorney's Office really didn't care about that.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um my complaint was dismissed, but we pursued private settlement negotiations and he retracted the negative reference.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but by then it was obviously too late.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: I was pretty much blackballed for my dream job.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: He was removed from the bench for other misconduct.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um and, you know, I think the DC Conduct Commission really hoped that dismissing my complaint would stop me in my tracks, but that really only galvanized me.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I got involved with some legislative advocacy on the Hill around a bill called the Judiciary Accountability Act to extend Title VII to the courts.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because what I haven't mentioned is that when I was thinking about holding the judge accountable, I discovered I couldn't sue him because 30,000 people who work for the federal courts, including law clerks, are exempt from Title VII and all the anti-discrimination, civil rights, labor, and whistleblower laws that apply to all other workers.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um I provided congressional testimony in 2022 in support of the JA, quit my job a couple weeks later, launched LAP a couple weeks later to correct injustices I personally experienced.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I have been for the past four years holding the judiciary speech to the fire every single day, forcing change in the most intransigent area of the legal industry and federal government.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, when when I first came across, you know, your story and just the existence of the Legal Accountability Project, it was through other people posting uh or commenting rather on my posts saying, like, do you know about Aliza and this work?
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't have any, I didn't experience anything even remotely to this level, but the the comments leading to you were because I was sharing my own stories of just and not even in, you know, with the judicial um arena, just in law, navigating the industry in my personal experience with men who were not always treating me as they should.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I, the the particular experience that I had was I was a one L, I was super ex, you know, super excited to be in law school and to be at a networking event.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I, it was one of my I think first, you know, big networking events, and I was trying to find a summer internship, and I was having this great conversation, and I came out of the event with an offer for a summer internship, doing something I was so incredibly excited about.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: And went home, stoked, started getting emails from this guy who was sending me very explicit messages that I did not want to be receiving.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: And he I told him to stop and he didn't.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I had a very good relationship, thankfully, with um the one female dean at my law school, and I went to her and said, help.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what to do here.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: And she ended up getting, she helped me navigate it and also got a friend of hers who was a judge who was part of that networking group to just be available to me should I ever run into him again and need help.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, when I when that happened, I I felt really I felt I didn't know what to do.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: I felt alone, I felt confused, I felt overwhelmed, and and I felt devastated.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, then I think a lot of us go through these individual experiences thinking, oh, it's just us, and also feeling like, well, I don't even know who to talk about this with, and I don't know how to navigate this, and I don't know how to fix this.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: And these stories, versions of these stories, are happening so frequently.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: And some of them are, you know, on the spectrum, relatively benign, and some of them are incredibly outrageous.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what led me to find out about you because people were like, different story, but industry-wise, and it's you know, that power dynamic that I know you talk about, that especially as law students and law clerks and junior associates, and the more junior you are in your career, you're more vulnerable to these dynamics that you know, you're you don't have a lot of power at the time, and you're new to navigating this world.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: So, one of the things I think about a lot, and I, you know, I want to talk more about it, and it's not something everybody's gonna like hearing, but you know, as a junior attorney, as a law clerk, as a law student, I want to let people know that they have power and agency too.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, your your voice is your power, and you should report and you should file a complaint.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I, my God, I receive outreach nearly every day from law clerks who just want a listening ear.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: They want me to be their therapist, and I make clear to them that that is not my role.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have time for that, I don't want to do that.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: And to know, I've written about this a couple times, the the mistreated law clerks in the years before me because they did not report, you know, my career was derailed.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: I still feel a lot of rage about that.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, I want to make clear to people you gotta report.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you have agency to hold this person accountable, and you may be afraid, but if you don't, you are perpetuating the problem.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it it's not a message everybody wants to hear, but it it is the message.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like this is accountability is in the name of the nonprofit for a reason.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: So so absolutely, and I I I think that's an important note because I did just use the word vulnerability, and people do feel that way, but just because you are vulnerable doesn't mean you don't have any power.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't mean that there aren't going to be challenges that go along with it, but you can and really ought to speak up because if you don't, we're not we're not helping anybody.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: So the reason I'm wanted to have this conversation with you is because you do work that highlights the some of the issues that we have in the industry that lead, you know, people to not feel safe in in their environments and to be able to build the careers that they want to.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: And you don't just highlight those areas that need to be fixed, you work very hard to fix them.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: So tell me more about the work that you're doing on a daily basis.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so we fire on all cylinders because there's just a lot of work that needs to be done.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: Probably the hallmark of our work is our nationwide clerkships database, Glassdoor for Judges.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: It is a review platform where law clerks can review their bosses anonymously, and only students in recent grads applying for clerkships can access it.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: No judges.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: We have very aggressive security protocols, so we know exactly who's registering.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: And frankly, I think users know this.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: We know what they're looking at.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: So if we ever had a problem, I would know like which Joe Schmoe was sharing information about this judge.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, Joe Schmoe.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um so we have over 2,000 reviews, about more than 1,200 judges, about two-thirds federal and one-third state.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: We have served over 4,000 law students in recent grads over the past two years.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: So when people talk about quantifying the scope of our work, I mean that's that is incredible.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um so we run the database, and that is frankly, accountability through transparency.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: There is nothing abusive judges hate more than negative feedback traveling through the grapevine that they can't see or retaliate against clerks for sharing.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was talking to, I'll sometimes talk to clerks who had negative experiences, and they'll be like, wow, I'm actually kind of glad that the judge has like five, ten negative reviews.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like that, we hope that that will steer most people away.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's database.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's also revenue generating, so students pay a small annual fee to access information.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we are regularly counseling clerks on their options.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: If they are trying to get out of an abusive clerkship, they're thinking about filing complaints, we are helping with that.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: We are helping people get out of scheduled clerkships where they learn the judge is abusive.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: We do a lot of law school programming, bar association programming to inform people about the importance of being mindful of who you clerk for.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: Do some legislative and policy advocacy around two bills, the Judiciary Accountability Act, which I provided testimony in support of in 2022, helped with the reintroduction of that would extend Title VII to the judiciary.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: That is like baseline should happen.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: The fact that the judiciary is vociferously opposed should be the blinkingest of red lights.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we also uh support the Trust Act, my idea for a bill to close the legal loophole that currently allows judges to step down and close the misconduct investigation into them.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: Several judges, Kesha Tanabe in Minnesota, Mark Wolfe in Massachusetts, stepped down to evade accountability within the past couple of years.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then we do a ton of thought leadership.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I just published something about Eleanor Ross.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: I published a couple things on her.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: She is the Georgia federal judge who was having sex in her chambers with a law enforcement officer.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: We were responsible for helping with that.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: We're in the New York Times about that a couple weeks ago.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of articles, podcasts, videos.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when I launched LAP four years ago, there was really nobody talking about this.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: And there was no change happening.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I knew that we needed to shine a sustained spotlight, talk about this issue every day, put personal face and personal stories to it.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: So we do that.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: So that's some of the stuff we do.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um we have filed, we're filing judicial misconduct complaints ourselves.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: We're helping clerks file them.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: We're working with or fighting with Congress, we're working with or fighting with the courts, both state and federal.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: We are everywhere.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of change to be created.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, I would say we're four years in and we we've done a ton, but we are really, we are just scratching the surface of everything we are going to do.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I've said to some people recently, I really want to do something that shakes the table.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: So we're kind of thinking about what that what that is.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: But I will say federal judiciary just vociferously opposed to accountability, vociferously opposed transparency.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: They released a survey that they conducted in 2023, released the results in 2025, found as many as 106 judges harassed their clerks in 2023, just three law clerks filed complaints that year.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Huge discrepancy due to that lack of legal protection against retaliation.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: We want to up those complaint numbers.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: We want Congress to conduct oversight, which they refuse to do.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: The judiciary's been asked no questions about those data.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: The federal judiciary, and it's not just the federal judiciary we try to change, but the judiciary is perpetrating a fraud upon the public.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't say that lightly, but I know it to be true.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: And the fact that, you know, lawmakers are not taking this issue seriously should alarm all of us because we elect these people and they are not doing their jobs.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of people don't really know what rises to the level of harassment.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what is this just oh, that's you know, they're not very nice, we don't really get along very well.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't, it's not worth me complaining about.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we're pushing through too much.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: Can you talk about what's really happening behind the scenes and what you wish more people understood about what is completely inappropriate behavior that you really should speak up about?
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: So the first thing I will say is that the federal judiciary is basically the only legal employer that's exempt from Title VII.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: They are legally immune from suit.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: Now the judiciary complains that they complains, the judiciary claims that they run an exemplary workplace.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: So they should be held to the highest ethical standards and they should act as if they are above reproach in their dealings with clerks.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: So you would think if they they don't think they need to be subject to any workplace laws, that's because judges are such great bosses.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: I want a level set because when people think, oh gosh, does this rise to the level?
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well, look, your the your boss is claiming we don't need any workplace protections because we're so ethical.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: So remember that.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: You should be complaining like anything they do that is less than ethical, less than like above board, is grounds for a complaint.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um now the judiciary likes to use the phrase abusive conduct by which which they mean bullying, and that's a lot of what we see.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um yelling, throwing things, berating clerks for perceived mistakes that are not mistakes, saying, Oh, I told you I needed it at um 7 p.m.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: on a Saturday night, and it should be single spaced in Times New Roman 11-point font.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: And the clerk is like, you've never said that ever in your life.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: What are you talking about?
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: And they submit that work, and then the next day the judge goes, No, no, I said 12-point courier, and then I wanted it at 1 a.m.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like that kind of gaslighting, kind of moving the goalposts.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: We see that a lot, and it's really just a way to like screw with the clerks.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um crazy.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of what we are seeing lately that I receive outreach from is just insane work hours.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like I expect you to be on call 24-7, weekends, no days off.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you're gonna be in chambers at 1 a.m.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: on a Saturday, and if and if you're not there, you know, I'm gonna fire you.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: We see a lot of that.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so those are some of the things I I see.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: We don't usually see sexual harassment, though with Joshua Kindred, the Alaska federal judge who is who stepped down in 2024, we do see that.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: But it it's a lot of bullying.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: And clerks will sometimes say, oh, is it just um is it just a tough boss?
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: Is it just a bad fit?
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: And to both those things I say, well, the second one I say, there is no bad fit.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's bullshit.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that's what was said about me.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's just a personality conflict, bad fit.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: No, that is not, that is not a thing.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: Judges are the most powerful members of the legal industry, probably the most powerful members of the federal government.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: They interpret our laws.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: They should be acting very ethically in their dealings with clerks.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and when they are not, that is grounds for a complaint.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what I would say.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I receive a ton of outreach hearing all kinds of display.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Disturbing stuff literally every single day.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's man.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what I wrote in an article recently in Above the Law, I said something like, I want clerks to, you know, file more complaints and use the process.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: Because if even clo if even a fraction of the law clerks who were mistreated filed complaints, the judiciary would see how absolutely unworkable their system is.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: They're only perpetuating this ridiculous internal mode of self-policing because they have chilled complaints.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: Because law clerks are so fearful of retaliation, which they're not legally protected against.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's it's a fraud.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: Law clerks have used the word fraud with me.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's so painful to hear about.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: What changes do you feel like you're seeing just with on the on the clerk side?
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: We see a lot more incoming clerks empowered to withdraw from their scheduled clerkships when they learn the judge is abusive.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: We help clerks with that.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: We see a lot more clerks quitting their abusive clerkships rather than sticking it out.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: See a lot more clerks using the internal reporting mechanisms, so talking to the director of workplace relations, sometimes filing an employee speech resolution, an internal workplace complaint.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: We are seeing more clerks use the formal complaint process under the Judicial Conduct and Disability Act, though that's that's rare.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: But we definitely see more law clerks understanding that what they're experiencing is wrong, empowered to submit surveys to LAPS database, which when we launched this initiative, people said, oh, nobody's gonna share their candid experience.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well, um, I mean 30% of our surveys are negative.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: We have over 2,000 surveys, so you do the math.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: We got a lot of got a lot of negative information in this database.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: So those are the changes I am seeing, and law clerks definitely more empowered.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: And we receive a lot of outreach every day just thanking thanking us for our work.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, some of the changes we don't see, we don't see, as I mentioned earlier, enough clerks filing formal complaints, and that that is really hard for me.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I have mostly stepped back from a lot of these conversations with law clerks.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: Part of it is a bandwidth issue, and I don't want to be their therapist, but part of it is like I said, it's really hard for me.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to be like a vessel for their secrets.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: If you are experiencing this, you should be reporting this.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's still a tension there between you know wanting to share with somebody and wanting to share in laps database, and that's good.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we are steering thousands of students away from abusive clerkships.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: That is huge cultural change.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: We got to get the abusive ones off the bench, and that requires filing complaints.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: Are you seeing any changes with on the on the judge side?
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: On, you know.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we we definitely see more judges kind of looking inward and considering their role as managers and mentors.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: Now, those are probably the folks already kind of primed to like our work or want to be receptive to our work, thinking about how they can do better.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we see the judiciary making some window dressing changes.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: They've released a couple annual reports and more data, and that's really us holding their feet to the fire.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so that's good.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately, Congress is not asking them any questions about this troubling data, and there's a tension there too.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we really see sometimes the judiciary, though, just just digging in, just digging in.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um we filed a complaint against Sarah Merriam in the Second Circuit.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, received this kind of nasty gram order by Chief Judge Livingston taking some shots at my nonprofit just because she thought she could.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: We responded to that.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, some of these judges just dig in because they they're really gonna protect their own at all costs.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we really just need to get some of them off the bench.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: When there are clerks in these situations and um, you know, you're are are you ever helping them navigate the situation on, you know, uh aside from filing complaints, what are their other options?
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: If it does make sense, if it's you know not the worst situation in the world and they're managing okay, but they're really upset about it, how do you help them through the process?
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so sometimes what they should be doing is filing an employee dispute resolution or an EDR complaint.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's the internal dispute resolution process where law clerks can and do get reassigned.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there is there's no other address for them.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it, if you're getting reassigned, that depends on another judge taking on a third or fifth clerk, depending whether it's district or circuit.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: And it might involve you moving.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you are out in bum fuck Washington and there is one judge in your courthouse, you could be reassigned somewhere else in the Ninth Circuit, but you might have to move.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I would encourage law clerks to be using the EDR plan.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: There's an EDR coordinator in their courthouse.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's like a source of confidential advice.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: There's also a circuit director of workplace relations, so I encourage them to speak with the DWR too.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I definitely encourage clerks to use all the court mechanisms, but I caution, and they understand after speaking with these folks immediately.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: These are not impartial law third points of contact.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: This is HR for the judiciary.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: And some of the worst offenders are these DWRs who are dissuading clerks from filing complaints.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: There was the former DWR of the Eighth and Tenth Circuit, she has since retired, was personally responsible for dissuading eight clerks I know from filing complaints.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um I I laugh, but it's uh it's appalling.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: But when when I raise that with other judiciary officials, they will say, well, oh, you know, it's not the DWR's job to share information.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: They're they're a confidential source of advice.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: So they're not they're not supposed to do anything.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: That was a problem we ran into with Sarah Merriam, the director of workplace relations in the Second Circuit, was sitting on a bunch of information of misconduct.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: And her claim was, well, I don't have to share it.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm not a mandatory reporter.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um so yeah, I would encourage law clerks to use all those internal mechanisms.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, sometimes we see law clerks having success talking to the judge, or all the clerks talk to the judge together, but that's not that's not their job.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: So those are some of the things I would encourage clerks to do.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: Use the internal dispute resolution processes, get the confidential advice, but know that it is not impartial advice.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: How commonly are you finding retaliation to really come to fruition?
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: When when clerks really are, you know, they're going through and they're filing complaints.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: Does the retaliation happen very frequently?
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: Does it happen to the extent that you experienced?
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I I tell law clerks that actually the best way to prevent retaliation is to file a complaint, um, a formal complaint, not just seek the confidential advice.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: If you seek the confidential advice, there is no record of what you said.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: And when the judge gets mad that you talk to the DWR and they get you blackballed from your law firm job, well, it's your word against the judge, is how you gonna prove it.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: If you filed a complaint, you can point to that written evidence, that written record.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: That is how you will prevent retaliation, or you know, if you are retaliated against, you know, successfully combat it.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um what we do see judges kind of badmouthing clerks on bar applications at at law firms and getting them blackballed from jobs.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, it's not the biggest issue we see.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: We we mostly see it as a source of fear among clerks and a reason they do not report.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: So, but you know, when I've talked to judiciary officials about the retaliation piece, they will say, we don't believe that happens.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like we we do believe judges are harassing people, we don't believe they'd retaliate against clerks.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, uh I I can think of numerous instances where they've retaliated against clerks.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: Do law firms seem to be, you know, savvy around this at all to understand that, for example, when uh um there is retaliation, does the law firm understand to look into this further?
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe it's not what what the judge is saying?
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: Good question.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll say a couple things on that.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we hear a lot from clerks who are afraid of retaliation and they're thinking about filing a complaint is well, the judge is close with the law firm I'm gonna work at, or like the law firm practices before this judge.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: So that that is the fear.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, to that, I would say to judicial branch officials, um, the complaint process right now, when you file a complaint in the Second Circuit in New York, it is adjudicated by other Second Circuit judges, the judges' friends and colleagues, it's all within the circuit.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: One policy change I've advocated for is called an inner circuit transfer.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: You file in the second circuit, it gets transferred to another circuit.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: So judges outside the circuit are investigating this judge.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that would be more impartial.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um I've seen law firms, I've seen law clerks successfully leave their clerkship early, reach out to their law firm and say, I'm being mistreated, can I start early?
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: And the law firms have agreed.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that's awesome.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: And we do see more law firms knowing, oh, that judge notoriously abusive, of course, of course, we can help.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we we do see the reverse.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: We've seen a couple law firms very skeptical of law clerks who've left their clerkships early.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a mix.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: I would say law firms increasingly savvy to these issues, yes, increasingly willing to believe the clerks to be on clerk's sides.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, that that's not everything.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, one of LAPS, we obviously fundraise, and we thought a lot about whether law firms would support our work, and kind of the response we get is, oh, we have to practice before these judges.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's that's pretty cowardly.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: And if you know some of these judges are gonna retaliate against you, well, you can use the judicial complaint process, you can use the attorney discipline process.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're worried about those judges retaliating, that it's even more reason to support lap's work.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um so, you know, it it's a mix.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: I would love to see less cowardice in the legal industry.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it's kind of ironic at this time when law firms are kind of patting themselves on the back for standing up to the Trump administration, which is nice, but they won't even stand up to these judges who are probably less powerful than the Trump administration when you think about who can actually DOJ is more powerful at harming you than a judge, but whatever.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well, when you think about the fact that being a lawyer is so much, obviously, about advocacy and not following the law, but following the law and advocating on behalf of a party.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: But it's so much harder to do it when you're that party.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's so much easier to advocate on behalf of someone else.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: So what do you what do you think we can do?
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: Because I mean the fear is reasonable, but fear should not stop us.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: So how do you think we helped more people understand?
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, things can go wrong, and this is a painful, messy process, but you know, standing up and doing what you know is right for you and for others is part of being a good human and it's part of the job.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, I would point to the some of the abusive former judges we've held accountable, clerks have held accountable.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, Mark Wolf, he was harassing people in Boston forever.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: He stepped down amid a misconduct investigation, a brave clerk, you know, reported.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: Subsequently, a bunch of his former clerks spoke on the record to some reporters.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, Mark Wolf is a disgraced former judge at this point.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that was those clerks, you know, standing up and saying, like, I have agency here.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Kesha Tanabe, Minnesota bankruptcy judge.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: We had a law clerk file a complaint against her after she'd already announced she was resigning because they thought, well, that's not accountability.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um Lap broke the news about Kesha Tanabe.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: She's a disgraced former judge.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: She's a law firm associate, not a partner, and she's in North Dakota.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: She's not in Minnesota.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I would point to some of those.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, Sarah Merriam's gonna have some trouble getting clerks, Lydia K.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: Grigsby, um, Joshua Kindred is disbarred.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like, those are all clerks, you know, standing up and filing complaints and blowing the whistle.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, even if the discipline is not everything we want in those cases, and when you read the formal discipline these judges receive, it's bullshit, it's nothing, it's a slap on the wrist.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's really the reputational harm.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you get you.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: So switching gears a little bit, you had a dream career and you put it aside, or you had you you knew what you wanted your dream to career to be.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: You didn't get to have it.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: And instead, you're doing this really important work.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: But the desire to do that work doesn't just like dissipate because you suddenly can't do it, and now you have to do something else.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do you manage or what's and now you're doing really emotional work?
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do you take care of yourself?
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so that you really can do it and sustainably so.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I I will say, I mean, this is the work I was meant to do.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: That this is my dream job.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: This running the nonprofit advocacy.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm an activist.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I I am gearing up to run for office next year.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, I will take that work to elected office someday, I hope.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but this is really what I was I was meant to do.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, kind of seeing all my friends who are former federal prosecutors and all the harm the Trump administration has has wrought, I mean, that that I would not have been, I would not have been happy as a practicing lawyer, you know, regardless.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um how do I how do I keep myself you know healthy?
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I have I love being the boss because all of my meetings, we've talked about this before, all of my meetings are walking meetings.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that's why I'm audio only like 99% of the time.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: Unless I'm talking to like a large foundation or a law school dean.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm usually talking to judges, audio only.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so all my meetings are walking meetings.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: I am sending emails that do not have proper capitalization because I'm sending them on my phone.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: I am working on the elliptical at the gym.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: I can go to the gym at you know 1 p.m.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: on a Tuesday, and I can be there as long as I'm working for as many hours as I want.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and you know, I'm the boss.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: So that's how I do it.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I could never work for anybody after working for myself, and I I love it.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, my friends who are at law firms and stuff, like their lives and their hours are really not their own, and that's not something I would ever want.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah.
• 37:43
  unknown: Yeah.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: I am all for the walking meetings.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: I also cannot imagine ever working for someone else ever again.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: The working for yourself model is not for everyone, but it sounds like also for you, it's phenomenal.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: And uh no, go ahead.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I would say on the on the working for myself thing, I mean, I obviously have to fund laps work.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: We get a little bit of grant funding, our database is revenue generating.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's$50 per year for students and 60 for grads.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I was saying to a friend today, uh, I'm really, really sensitive when people don't respect my time, especially because time is my most precious resource.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: I don't make much money.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we know some of the very abusive federal judges within the AO leadership.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: One of the rumors they were spreading about me in the early years was that LAP was a money-making scheme.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: And at that point, I was taking zero dollars in salary when they were taking$250,000 per year in salary.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I thought that was crazy.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I don't make much money doing this.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, so when people make unreasonable demands of me, or, you know, why isn't the database free?
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: Or can you take on, can you take on all this emotional labor?
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, no.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I am firing on all cylinders here.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I that is something I wish people respected more was my time.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, when we think about nonprofit leaders, their time, their time, our time is our most precious resource.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: We are not doing this for money.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: We are doing this because we saw an injustice and we see ourselves as the best vectors to correct it.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for sharing your story.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for sharing so that now more people who need to know about the work that you're doing and how to protect themselves and take care of themselves in their clerkships and beyond can feel empowered to do that.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: And thank you for since we you we just talked about your time and of course also your energy being so valuable, thank you for sharing your time with me.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, of course.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, look, the issues we talked about are not specific to the judiciary.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they're legal industry-wide, they are society-wide.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: There is a power imbalance in all areas of, you know, all in all workplaces.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, power corrupts, power without accountability is really dangerous.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just so disturbed, so sick of people in positions of power abusing that power.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, what judges, lawmakers, bosses in other workplaces, um, you know, it's time for a change and a place where every manager is respectful of their employees and is just held to account when they don't.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: Agreed.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: Simply agreed.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I think having these conversations is so important so that I mean, part of it is just when things happen, people don't feel that they're alone and that they know who else to talk to.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: So when it does happen, they have support and they have guidance.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so that we can also actually make the changes.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because when we're quiet about it, nothing changes.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for listening.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you enjoyed.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: Please be sure to check out the links in the show notes and to rate and subscribe the podcast.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you have a wonderful day, and please remember to be kind to yourself.