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Faith Over Fear - Why God Might Feel Distant and How to Connect With Him More Deeply · KFM On Demand

0:02
Speaker 1: Life Audio. I believe a lot of us experience God
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Speaker 1: as still face. That our greatest fear that God really
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Speaker 1: isn't present with us is that God is not present
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Speaker 1: with us. We just wonder if we're coming to God
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Speaker 1: and somehow we're not knowing the formula. We're not knowing
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Speaker 1: which words to say. Maybe we forgot to worship before
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Speaker 1: we came. We have all of these rules that we
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Speaker 1: put in place before we come to God, believing that
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Speaker 1: he's going to give us still face if we don't
0:37
Speaker 1: come correctly.
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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Faith Over Fear podcast, where we discuss
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Speaker 2: powerful truths to quiet anxiety and fear, big and small.
0:48
Speaker 2: I'm Jennifer Slattery, and I know the angst and the
0:52
Speaker 2: frustration that comes when we feel disconnected from Christ. I
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Speaker 2: understand the confusion and the anxiety this can create and
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Speaker 2: all the questions like, why does everyone else seem to
1:01
Speaker 2: have such a close relationship with the Lord? What does
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Speaker 2: that even look like? And maybe the the most confusing.
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Speaker 2: I hear people talk about how God is always happy
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Speaker 2: to be with me and wants to connect more deeply
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Speaker 2: with me, but that doesn't feel like my experience, which
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Speaker 2: can evoke the fear, I have to clean myself up
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Speaker 2: before I come to God. I'm too much. I need
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Speaker 2: to manage my needs, minimize myself before I come to God.
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Speaker 2: And often there's a painful life fueling those fears. I'm
1:30
Speaker 2: too needy and God has a limited attention span. But
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Speaker 2: here's the truth I pray today's conversation reveals. The Lord
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Speaker 2: actively pursues us always and forever and is constantly helping
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Speaker 2: us build a safe, secure attachment, or you might call
1:45
Speaker 2: it bond with him, our father. And to help me
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Speaker 2: dig into this issue, I've invited author, speaker, and Anglican priest,
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Speaker 2: Reverend Summer Joy Gross, on to discuss the profound insight
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Speaker 2: she addresses in her book, Emmanuel promise designed to help
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Speaker 2: us experience Christ on an ever deepening level. Reverend Summer,
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Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining us.
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Speaker 1: Jennifer, it is such a joy and I have such
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Speaker 1: a tender heart towards you and your community as someone
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Speaker 1: who has suffered with anxiety as well and recognizes that
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Speaker 1: the Lord just draws near.
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Speaker 2: Amen.
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Speaker 1: That there is an invitation, even in that anxiety, to
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Speaker 1: draw near to him, to bring all our messy places
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Speaker 1: and know that he comes with compassion.
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Speaker 2: I love that. Well, like I said, Reverend Summer Joy
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Speaker 2: Gross is an Anglican priest, retreat leader, and spiritual director
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Speaker 2: who believes that our stories can be transformed by God's
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Speaker 2: invitation to make his love our home base. I love that.
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Speaker 2: She is Associate Faculty of Spiritual Formation and the Art
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Speaker 2: of Spiritual Direction at the Healing Care Ministry Spiritual Direction School.
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Speaker 2: She's also the host of the Presence podcast and lives
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Speaker 2: in North Georgia. I would like to know more of
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Speaker 2: your story when you first recognized that there was maybe
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Speaker 2: some kind of internal disconnect going on.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I.
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Speaker 1: Have always struggled with bonding or people pleasing. So that
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Speaker 1: has been at the heart of a lot of my anxiety,
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Speaker 1: a fear of rejection. And this is something that was
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Speaker 1: really interesting to me. So I'm going to tell a
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Speaker 1: story that I don't think I've ever told before to
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Speaker 1: anyone else except my sister. But this is what came
3:39
Speaker 1: up for me about a year ago. My mom and
3:43
Speaker 1: I were teaching at a Christian Medical and Dental Society meeting,
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Speaker 1: and we were attending some other things because we have
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Speaker 1: a lot of friends that are a part of it.
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Speaker 1: My dad used to take us on the coolest short-term
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Speaker 1: mission trips with CMDA. So this is what happened. There
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Speaker 1: was a panel that was about marriage with doctors, surgeons. anesthesiologists,
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Speaker 1: brain surgeons, and their wives talking about their families. And
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Speaker 1: the women started talking about how they had to create
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Speaker 1: an atmosphere for their husbands that was quiet and restful
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Speaker 1: because their husbands were always exhausted, that they were always
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Speaker 1: overwhelmed by the life or death decisions that they were
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Speaker 1: having to make at all times and just the heaviness
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Speaker 1: of their work. And I'm just so grateful for them.
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Speaker 1: So I want you to hear that. I'm so grateful
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Speaker 1: that I believe my dad is one of the most
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Speaker 1: people with the most integrity and and wisdom and ability
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Speaker 1: to make hard, fast decisions that are smart and healing
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Speaker 1: for people. Also, what was being talked about was really
5:09
Speaker 1: interesting in that it almost felt like The women were
5:13
Speaker 1: describing a home of an alcoholic, like everyone having to
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Speaker 1: tiptoe around dad because he was so extremely exhausted. And
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Speaker 1: so there was an attuning to both adults rather than
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Speaker 1: an attuning to the children and the needs of the
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Speaker 1: children themselves. So all that to say, so many of
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Speaker 1: my needs were met growing up. But I could feel
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Speaker 1: that in my body, that sense of, are my mom
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Speaker 1: and dad going to be frustrated with me? I have
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Speaker 1: to manage the atmosphere in the room. I have to
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Speaker 1: be careful. about the level of messiness and neediness that
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Speaker 1: I'm bringing to a space. And all of a sudden
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Speaker 1: there was a huge aha moment because I was born
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Speaker 1: at the very beginning of medical school and then college.
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Speaker 1: lots of residency. So my first 10 years were all
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Speaker 1: about dad's education. So this was just really interesting information
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Speaker 1: and helped me to understand a little bit more of
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Speaker 1: my nervous system, as well as why I felt like
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Speaker 1: I had to tiptoe around my dad, who I know
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Speaker 1: I get to spend time with all the time, is
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Speaker 1: a kind and loving and just incredibly exuberant person. But
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Speaker 1: his day today was exhausting. So this is what helped
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Speaker 1: me to understand because trust is And a feeling of
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Speaker 1: peacefulness happens because there's an attuning to the child where
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Speaker 1: the parent is able to recognize the inner needs of
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Speaker 1: a child and attune to them. And the child feels
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Speaker 1: comfortable crying out for whatever their needs are and knowing
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Speaker 1: that that parent desires and delights in meeting that child's needs. So,
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Speaker 1: I had a nervous system that was always on edge.
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Speaker 1: And part of that could be physical reasons. Who knows
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Speaker 1: what all is there as I continue to explore this
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Speaker 1: story that I've been given. But it's just really helpful
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Speaker 1: to know that there can even be good reasons for
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Speaker 1: this attachment to not work.
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Speaker 3: Not be a secure one.
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Speaker 2: Wow. I have so many questions that came up as
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Speaker 2: you were talking about that one phrase really resonated or
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Speaker 2: really stuck in my brain when you said what came
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Speaker 2: up for me and why I thought about that is
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Speaker 2: it just made me think of the journey that the
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Speaker 2: Lord has brought you on. So what are you talking
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Speaker 2: about when you're talking about this attunement attachment? Yeah, for sure.
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Speaker 1: So attachment theory has been around since the 40s and 50s.
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Speaker 1: The first person who looked into it, this is so
8:19
Speaker 1: interesting to me, lived kind of a Downton Abbey existence
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Speaker 1: in that he only had an hour a day with
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Speaker 1: his mother and an hour a week. So there was,
8:33
Speaker 1: he lived with the nanny and until he was four
8:37
Speaker 1: years old, he had his own nanny. And then once
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Speaker 1: he turned four, she was sent away. So imagine what
8:45
Speaker 1: happened there. And then he was sent over to the
8:50
Speaker 1: full house. nursery in which there was a very, a
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Speaker 1: nanny like a sergeant. So he lost that sense of
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Speaker 1: a loving attachment figure. She literally was sent away. And
9:04
Speaker 1: then when he was six years old, he was sent
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Speaker 1: away to school. So one of the things that was
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Speaker 1: interesting for him as he studied was learning about all
9:14
Speaker 1: the children that were sent away during the London Blitz.
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Speaker 1: and how they were sent away from their parents, and
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Speaker 1: what happened to their attachment. Then he went over to
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Speaker 1: a juvenile delinquent center and started studying these children's experience
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Speaker 1: with their parents, what kind of bond they had with
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Speaker 1: their parents. And he started recognizing that the children in
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Speaker 1: that delinquent center had really difficult attachments with their parents. Finally,
9:47
Speaker 1: he was the one who helped make a difference in
9:52
Speaker 1: allowing parents to come to the hospital with their children
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Speaker 1: when they had illnesses or their tonsils out. or that
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Speaker 1: type of thing, recognizing that that attachment relationship was essential
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Speaker 1: for that child to heal. So he was doing a
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Speaker 1: lot of study on that. His student was doing a
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Speaker 1: lot of study on what she called the strange experiment,
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Speaker 1: which just means that a child was in a room
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Speaker 1: playing and the caregiver would leave the room and someone
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Speaker 1: would be taking notes to see what would happen with
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Speaker 1: that child as they recognized that that parent had left
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Speaker 1: the room. And then that parent was invited back into
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Speaker 1: the room and that was studied as well. So there
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Speaker 1: were a couple different insecure attachment stories that was found
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Speaker 1: during that strange experiment. A secure child would cry when
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Speaker 1: the parent left the room. And then when the parent
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Speaker 1: came back into the room, the child would come back
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Speaker 1: to home base to a sense that they were safe
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Speaker 1: because their caregiver.
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Speaker 3: Was in the room.
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Speaker 1: An insecure, anxious child would cling to that parent when
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Speaker 1: they came back into the room. They would cry when
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Speaker 1: the parent left. And when they came back, there was
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Speaker 1: a real clinginess, a fear of abandonment. And then the
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Speaker 1: avoidant child has a sense that they're on their own,
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Speaker 1: that there's no one who's attuned to their inner life.
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Speaker 1: So that when the parent left, the child might recognize
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Speaker 1: that the parent has left, but they'll keep playing because
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Speaker 1: they really believe that it's all up to them. The
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Speaker 1: parent comes back in and there's no change. And then
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Speaker 1: fourth is the disorganized child who has both a sense
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Speaker 1: of neediness from the parent of course they do because
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Speaker 1: where are you going to get food or love or
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Speaker 1: connection except from that relationship but also there is a
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Speaker 1: fear of that person and that child has a sense
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Speaker 1: that that person could harm them or could.
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Speaker 3: Act in a bizarre way like a lot.
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Speaker 1: Of times that's children of parents who have mental illnesses
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Speaker 1: that they don't know how they're going to react so
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Speaker 1: there's that sense of I don't know if I'm safe
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Speaker 1: with this person. And so their attachment style will include
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Speaker 1: both insecure anxious and insecure avoidant and will kind of
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Speaker 1: pendulum back and forth according to what makes that child
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Speaker 1: feel safe in the moment. So those are the different
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Speaker 1: attachment styles, secure, insecure, avoidant, and disorganized.
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Speaker 2: So what is, when you use the word attuned, what
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Speaker 2: do you mean by that?
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Speaker 1: Attunement has to do with knowing that there is someone
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Speaker 1: who is attentive, responsive, and engaged towards you. That's the
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Speaker 1: language of Dr. Sue Johnson that has taken all of
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Speaker 1: this attachment language and uses it for marriage as well,
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Speaker 1: recognizing that there's That beginning relationship created the neural pathways
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Speaker 1: for every relationship for that person going forward, even their
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Speaker 1: relationship with their spouse. And so that sense is that
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Speaker 1: is someone attentive, responsive, and engaged towards me is a
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Speaker 1: question that people will have through all of their life
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Speaker 1: to see whether or not they can count on or
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Speaker 1: they can have a sense of expectation that that person
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Speaker 1: will be there for them, will be able to connect
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Speaker 1: with them. on a deeper level.
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Speaker 2: So you're talking about the emotional, like they know what's
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Speaker 2: going on with their child emotionally and they respond appropriately
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Speaker 2: to the child's emotions. I want to, for some of
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Speaker 2: our listeners, they may be like, you know, I don't
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Speaker 2: understand why I'm people pleasing. I don't understand why conflict reacts.
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Speaker 2: I react this way. I don't understand why I'm struggling
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Speaker 2: in my marriage. I don't understand why I'm struggling with God.
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Speaker 2: They may not see their childhood as having these missing things.
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Speaker 2: I'm thinking in particular, it might seem like, yeah, my
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Speaker 2: dad didn't hit me. He didn't yell at me. But
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Speaker 2: was he there when I was needing emotional support? Like,
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Speaker 2: that's what I'm hearing you say.
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Speaker 1: Was he fully present and tuned in? It's almost like
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Speaker 1: the images of a tuning fork. And two people tuning
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Speaker 1: to each other of recognizing what is this a hopeful
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Speaker 1: sound or is this a sad sound? What kind of
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Speaker 1: emotional frequency is that person having right now? And that
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Speaker 1: parent being tuned in to that emotional frequency.
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Speaker 2: Yeah. And I can already tell I wish I'm going
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Speaker 2: to wish I had like six hours with you. So
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Speaker 2: I'm going to encourage listeners, obviously get the book, but
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Speaker 2: also go to your podcast because I'm sure you go
15:08
Speaker 2: into really detail to a lot of this. But so
15:12
Speaker 2: let's shift a bit. You talked about how this affects
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Speaker 2: all of our other relationships. And we might not always
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Speaker 2: recognize how it like consciously how we're bringing that into
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Speaker 2: our relationship with God. So how does that impact when
15:26
Speaker 2: we're talking about do I feel connected with God? Am
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Speaker 2: I even orienting towards him when I'm overwhelmed or when
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Speaker 2: I mess up or all those things? How can those
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Speaker 2: early experiences impact that?
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Speaker 1: So there is a study that Dr. Ed Tronick at
15:43
Speaker 1: Harvard did called the Still Face Study. And you guys
15:48
Speaker 1: have got to get on YouTube and listen and watch
15:51
Speaker 1: Still Face because there is going to be a huge
15:55
Speaker 1: light bulb that goes off for you. If you look
15:58
Speaker 1: at the one with Ed Tronick, and Dr. Sue Johnson,
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Speaker 1: that will be an even bigger light bulb. This is
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Speaker 1: the impairment that was done. There's a little girl in
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Speaker 1: a high chair and she's clipped in and she and
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Speaker 1: her mom are having this engaging time. The little girl points,
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Speaker 1: and smiles and the mom coos and smiles at her
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Speaker 1: and looks to where she's pointing. And there's all this engaging,
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Speaker 1: all this tuning in to the inner life of that child.
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Speaker 1: And then all of a sudden, Dr. Atronic invites her
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Speaker 1: to turn away to put a still face, completely neutral face,
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Speaker 1: and then turn back to that child. And that child
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Speaker 1: goes from, I know who this is, to, oh my goodness,
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Speaker 1: I don't know how to get my needs met here.
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Speaker 1: I'm not communicating at all. She's not communicating with me anymore.
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Speaker 1: And so there's a complete falling apart of that little
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Speaker 1: girl within 90 seconds.
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Speaker 3: And then Dr.
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Speaker 1: Sue Johnson shows us side by side a husband and
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Speaker 1: wife who do the same thing. a husband who was
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Speaker 1: told to do a still face with his wife, to
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Speaker 1: connect with her, and then all of a sudden to
17:18
Speaker 1: come to her with a completely neutral face.
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Speaker 3: And she's like, who are you?
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Speaker 1: What's going on? Why won't you answer me? But we
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Speaker 1: all know that feeling in our gut when we're trying
17:30
Speaker 1: to connect with someone and all of a sudden they're
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Speaker 1: really not there. I believe a lot of us experience
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Speaker 1: God as still face. that our greatest fear that God
17:45
Speaker 1: really isn't present with us is that we just wonder
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Speaker 1: if we're coming to God and somehow we're not knowing
17:55
Speaker 1: the formula. We're not knowing which words to say. Maybe
17:59
Speaker 1: we forgot to worship before we came. We have all
18:03
Speaker 1: of these rules that we put in place before we
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Speaker 1: come to God, believing that he's going to give us
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Speaker 1: still face if we don't come correctly.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that one. As I was reading your book,
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Speaker 2: and really processing through it. I think sometimes it can
18:19
Speaker 2: be subconscious. A lot of times, maybe 90% of the time,
18:23
Speaker 2: it's subconscious. And I realized when you were getting to
18:25
Speaker 2: the part where you were inviting the reader to experience
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Speaker 2: God's wanting to be with them. And I found myself
18:33
Speaker 2: kind of trying to follow along with what you were
18:35
Speaker 2: inviting us to do. But first, without even thinking about it,
18:38
Speaker 2: I went on this confession loop. I'm like, I had
18:41
Speaker 2: to scan, what did I do today that I need
18:43
Speaker 2: to confess for? What did I? And it just popped up.
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Speaker 2: And I feel like that was the Holy Spirit, honestly,
18:48
Speaker 2: in that moment, showing me things that maybe go on
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Speaker 2: internally that I'm not aware of. But it was like
18:53
Speaker 2: I had kind of what you shared in your story
18:55
Speaker 2: about having to have it all cleaned up. I wouldn't
18:58
Speaker 2: have told you that was my reality prior to reading
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Speaker 2: your book. I'm like, no, I know I'm forgiven and
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Speaker 2: there's Christ. But there was that element. that I felt
19:08
Speaker 2: like he showed me like, well, really, do you really
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Speaker 2: feel that way? Or do you feel like you have
19:12
Speaker 2: to fix all of these things before we can have
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Speaker 2: this deeper? It was the deeper connection that was leading
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Speaker 2: to the loop. Like I could connect on a surface
19:22
Speaker 2: level for so, and maybe not even just surface level.
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Speaker 2: Cause I think he's gracious, but. recognizing when he brings
19:30
Speaker 2: those things to our awareness. And there's something you said,
19:33
Speaker 2: I really, well, we got to take a break to
19:36
Speaker 2: listen to our sponsors. When we come back, I want
19:39
Speaker 2: to hear about kind of taking the pressure off because
19:42
Speaker 2: I hear from so many listeners and readers, this sense
19:46
Speaker 2: of condemnation. What am I doing wrong? What am I,
19:50
Speaker 2: And so we're going to take a break. When we
19:52
Speaker 2: come back, I want to hear more. I'm going to
19:54
Speaker 2: ask you to say something that was just profound for
19:57
Speaker 2: me from your book. So we'll be back. In your book,
20:08
Speaker 2: you said something that I think takes away the shame
20:11
Speaker 2: and pressure for every reader, I hope, really highlights that
20:16
Speaker 2: one phrase. You wrote, and you were speaking in the
20:19
Speaker 2: parental child relationship, but you wrote that it is always
20:23
Speaker 2: the caregiver's responsibility to build the secure attachment. And that
20:27
Speaker 2: makes sense when we're thinking of ourselves as little kids,
20:30
Speaker 2: but I don't know if we always transfer that to
20:33
Speaker 2: our relationship with God. And instead... I feel like sometimes
20:36
Speaker 2: we think it's our responsibility to build that connection. So
20:40
Speaker 2: can you talk to me? I mean, obviously there's things
20:43
Speaker 2: we do, but was I understanding what you were saying correctly?
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Speaker 2: Am I tracking correctly?
20:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is the adult's work to create the bond.
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Speaker 1: A child is in receiving mode. So I think if
20:58
Speaker 1: we see ourselves, if we can shift our way of
21:04
Speaker 1: thinking about our relationship with God instead of one of pursuit.
21:09
Speaker 1: I don't know if you read like the God chasers
21:12
Speaker 1: or anything like that. I did when I was growing up.
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Speaker 1: And so that was part of what had to shift
21:18
Speaker 1: in my mind. Instead of believing that I have to
21:22
Speaker 1: chase God to find him, to recognize God, he is
21:27
Speaker 1: standing at the road of my life, looking for me
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Speaker 1: to come home. He's doing the work. coming and he's
21:35
Speaker 1: excited for me to come home. He's the one looking
21:39
Speaker 1: for the one when the 99.
21:41
Speaker 3: Are still at home.
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Speaker 1: He's out searching. And so that was a huge aha
21:47
Speaker 1: moment for me.
21:48
Speaker 3: We see that in Ezekiel.
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Speaker 1: About God making the heart tender, a heart of flesh.
21:54
Speaker 1: And when you listen to that language, you're hearing, oh,
21:59
Speaker 1: this is a work God is doing. This is the
22:01
Speaker 1: work God is doing. He's doing this work within us.
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Speaker 1: The beauty of the cross is that he chose to
22:10
Speaker 1: do the hard work. He chose to place himself in suffering,
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Speaker 1: in pain, in order to go the distance across the
22:21
Speaker 1: bridge to us and to give his blood in order
22:26
Speaker 1: to cover over all of our sins. So the question is,
22:32
Speaker 1: how do we make a shift from believing it's all
22:36
Speaker 1: our work to recognizing it's his work that he's doing
22:41
Speaker 1: within us through the Holy Spirit? And we're just positioning ourselves.
22:47
Speaker 1: to receive from him.
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Speaker 2: I love that language, positioning ourselves. And I want to
22:53
Speaker 2: go back to, you shared a story at the beginning
22:56
Speaker 2: that you said you just got a year ago. I
22:57
Speaker 2: don't know when you wrote this book. I don't know
22:59
Speaker 2: when you had that conversation with your mom where you're like, hey,
23:02
Speaker 2: I think I've got insecure attachment. I think sometimes when
23:06
Speaker 2: we read scripture or we hear people's stories and we're like,
23:10
Speaker 2: do X, Y, Z, and then boom, this happens. Talk
23:14
Speaker 2: to me about the journey, the slow journey of, I mean,
23:20
Speaker 2: because of the way I picture it, we've not only
23:23
Speaker 2: got to kind of undo the false messages that have
23:27
Speaker 2: been ingrained in our brain and heal the wounds that
23:31
Speaker 2: occurred and develop this safety sense of trust and faith
23:37
Speaker 2: in Christ. And I think sometimes we have this unrealistic
23:40
Speaker 2: expectation that we're going to go from zero to completely
23:44
Speaker 2: in love and attached and secure. So what was the
23:48
Speaker 2: time and the, not just the time, Summer, but the
23:53
Speaker 2: frustration and the angst? Like, did you do wrestling with
23:57
Speaker 2: him when you're in that phase? And what did that
23:59
Speaker 2: look like?
24:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I had the privilege of doing a ton
24:05
Speaker 1: of healing care groups. with our congregation and a few
24:10
Speaker 1: other women who led with me. And during that time,
24:15
Speaker 1: it was like the Lord was saying, you know, this
24:18
Speaker 1: year we're going to work with this particular message, or
24:23
Speaker 1: this relationship that you need to do work with. And
24:26
Speaker 1: it was interesting how not just myself, but other people
24:30
Speaker 1: within the group, there would be a resonance of like,
24:33
Speaker 1: everyone was doing work around their mother. Everyone was doing
24:40
Speaker 1: work around a huge childhood pain. So It was just
24:47
Speaker 1: really interesting how the Lord taught me that it was
24:50
Speaker 1: okay that this goes slow.
24:52
Speaker 3: Yes.
24:54
Speaker 1: A beautiful poem by Teilhard de Chardin that starts, Above all,
25:01
Speaker 1: trust in the slow work of God. We are quite
25:04
Speaker 1: naturally impatient in everything to reach the end without delay.
25:10
Speaker 1: We should like to skip the intermediate stages. We are impatient.
25:16
Speaker 1: on being on the way to something unknown, something new.
25:21
Speaker 1: And yet it is a law of all progress that
25:23
Speaker 1: it is made by passing through some stages of instability
25:28
Speaker 1: and that it may take a very long time. So
25:32
Speaker 1: accept the gift, the benefit of believing his hand is
25:36
Speaker 1: leading you and accept the anxiety of feeling yourself in
25:40
Speaker 1: suspense and incomplete.
25:44
Speaker 2: Well, I think that's big because you said we don't
25:47
Speaker 2: like to feel incomplete. We don't like suspense. We don't
25:51
Speaker 2: like ambiguity. Do you think ever when we're in this
25:56
Speaker 2: phase of like, we're just beginning to recognize. So like
25:59
Speaker 2: for me, there was a season where I'm like, huh,
26:02
Speaker 2: I have been taught, not intentionally, but I have been
26:05
Speaker 2: taught not to hear God, not to seek him relationally.
26:08
Speaker 2: I have been taught to do X and do Y,
26:12
Speaker 2: know the truth, live the truth. Everything will be great.
26:15
Speaker 2: When you don't do that, then you're bad. And So
26:19
Speaker 2: there's that first realization where you're like, okay, I know
26:21
Speaker 2: there's a gap here. I don't yet know the solution.
26:24
Speaker 2: And I'm not 100% sure that the solution will come
26:28
Speaker 2: true for me. And I think when we're in that phase,
26:32
Speaker 2: we can do one of two things. We can pull back.
26:35
Speaker 2: Because we're like, well, obviously there was something wrong with me.
26:37
Speaker 2: I got to go back to my try harder, do better,
26:39
Speaker 2: learn more. And because that's comfortable, maybe. Or we can
26:43
Speaker 2: push through. So what would you say to the person
26:46
Speaker 2: who they're just starting to realize that, you know what,
26:50
Speaker 2: I want this connection with the Lord. I want a true,
26:55
Speaker 2: I mean, we talk about relationship with Christ. It's a relationship,
26:59
Speaker 2: not a religion. Okay, well, relationship means interaction, right? There's
27:03
Speaker 2: emotional connection. So what would you say to the person
27:06
Speaker 2: who says, I'm in that ambiguous, ambiguous stage? It is
27:11
Speaker 2: highly uncomfortable. I feel like I'm going to have a
27:13
Speaker 2: panic attack. I don't know where I am with God.
27:15
Speaker 2: My sense of security, it was a false security maybe,
27:18
Speaker 2: but my false security is now gone and I haven't
27:21
Speaker 2: yet attached securely. Yeah.
27:24
Speaker 1: So in my experience, it happens when episodic encounter with
27:30
Speaker 1: God at a time. As our cry meets his response,
27:35
Speaker 1: or as we settle into the truth of a scripture,
27:40
Speaker 1: we don't just hear it or know it or get
27:45
Speaker 1: the truth of it, but we allow it to hit
27:49
Speaker 1: as deeply as our nervous system. And often we use
27:52
Speaker 1: the holy imaginations. We ask the Lord, please, would you
27:57
Speaker 1: help me to get a picture of, say, instead of
28:01
Speaker 1: this scripture, be still and know that I am God.
28:04
Speaker 1: We ask the Lord, would you give me a picture
28:07
Speaker 1: of you inviting me to rest with you? We settle
28:10
Speaker 1: into that and we allow that to go as deep
28:13
Speaker 1: as our nervous system.
28:14
Speaker 3: And then we have someone else that we share it with.
28:18
Speaker 1: Maybe we have a spiritual director or a Anamkara, a
28:23
Speaker 1: soul friend, someone who can walk with us through this
28:26
Speaker 1: journey and maybe who's on that journey too. And so
28:30
Speaker 1: we share what that image was. And so it goes
28:32
Speaker 1: a little bit deeper as we connect with someone else.
28:36
Speaker 1: And as we share that particular story. Yeah.
28:40
Speaker 2: And I'm probably, I'm going to say too, and then
28:41
Speaker 2: we're going to need to take another break, but to
28:43
Speaker 2: our listeners, if you don't have that, because I have
28:45
Speaker 2: heard that from people and I think it's, it's, you know,
28:49
Speaker 2: we're talking about attachment. It is hard to develop those
28:52
Speaker 2: trusting relationships when we have insecure attachments. And again, We're
28:57
Speaker 2: dealing with other people who are struggling as well relationally.
28:59
Speaker 2: So it's just messy and it's going to be hard.
29:01
Speaker 2: So I'm going to encourage you to our listeners to
29:03
Speaker 2: be like, I don't have a soul friend. Pray. Ask
29:06
Speaker 2: God to bring it. Recognize he might not bring somebody
29:08
Speaker 2: to your door tomorrow. So just because he doesn't respond
29:12
Speaker 2: right away doesn't mean he's not going to respond or
29:15
Speaker 2: he isn't at work. So we're going to take a break.
29:18
Speaker 2: And then when we return, I would love if you
29:22
Speaker 2: could close our conversation with what begins to change as
29:27
Speaker 2: we grow in this area with the Lord.
29:30
Speaker 3: And we're back. So what happens?
29:41
Speaker 2: Because honestly, Summer, I tend to be selfishly motivated. And
29:45
Speaker 2: so there is a part of me that says, what's
29:47
Speaker 2: in it for me? Yes, I want to connect with
29:49
Speaker 2: the Lord. And I want to, want to, I think
29:51
Speaker 2: you even mentioned that in your book. I want to
29:53
Speaker 2: love the Lord.
29:53
Speaker 3: Help me love you, Lord.
29:54
Speaker 2: That's where I'm at 90% of the time, which I
29:57
Speaker 2: think to our listeners, it's okay. God knows we're children.
30:01
Speaker 2: Like we can't hide that from him. But so from
30:04
Speaker 2: a personal level, How does this help us experience more
30:09
Speaker 2: of the thriving life Jesus promised?
30:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, so one of the important people that can teach
30:16
Speaker 1: us on our way with this is David in the Psalms.
30:21
Speaker 1: And that he was excellent at sharing his inner life
30:25
Speaker 1: with God, at pouring it all out, at knowing that
30:29
Speaker 1: God cared about hearing his whininess, his jealousy, his frustration.
30:35
Speaker 1: Like if we think about, I mean, the man has
30:38
Speaker 1: all of the span of human emotion.
30:41
Speaker 3: And rage.
30:42
Speaker 2: Like he's like, kill my, destroy my enemies.
30:45
Speaker 3: Exactly. He had ruminating thoughts.
30:50
Speaker 1: There's even thoughts of suicidal ideation in here.
30:55
Speaker 3: He allows all.
30:57
Speaker 1: Of his emotions to come out towards God in lament
31:01
Speaker 1: and enables the Lord to meet him in that place.
31:06
Speaker 1: So the more that we do that, as well as
31:10
Speaker 1: allow the Lord through holy imagination to come enable us
31:15
Speaker 1: to experience him. One of my very, very favorite spiritual
31:19
Speaker 1: practices is entering into the stories of the gospel and
31:24
Speaker 1: connecting with Jesus. I think people get a tiny view
31:30
Speaker 1: of this by watching The Chosen, but I think there's
31:34
Speaker 1: such a powerful gift of entering into the story and
31:38
Speaker 1: Anne Halley, who is one of my mentors in all
31:42
Speaker 1: of this, she invites us to use the blessing of
31:47
Speaker 1: the children to get in line, to come up to Jesus,
31:52
Speaker 1: to watch other children be blessed, and then to get
31:56
Speaker 1: in line ourselves in order to be blessed by Jesus
32:00
Speaker 1: and experience his kindness, his attention, his face turned towards us.
32:07
Speaker 1: and his words over us in that moment.
32:11
Speaker 3: And my word, we can do that every single day
32:14
Speaker 3: for a while.
32:15
Speaker 1: As the Lord is doing something deep in you, I
32:19
Speaker 1: just invite you, stay there. Amen. Linger. Stay present to
32:26
Speaker 1: that word that the Lord is sending to you right
32:28
Speaker 1: now and allow it to be the road, the Holy
32:32
Speaker 1: Spirit to say, nope, we're going to stay right here
32:36
Speaker 1: for a while. And so that you can rest here
32:40
Speaker 1: and truly receive it from me. Don't look for another word,
32:44
Speaker 1: another aha moment, or even allow it to kind of
32:48
Speaker 1: come in and out of your ears.
32:51
Speaker 3: Stay right there.
32:54
Speaker 2: I want to actually expand on that when I was
32:58
Speaker 2: first trying to practice listening prayer. And my spiritual mentor
33:02
Speaker 2: has these elaborate, beautiful conversations with the Lord. And I
33:06
Speaker 2: kept getting the same thing over and over and over.
33:09
Speaker 1: I love you.
33:09
Speaker 2: I'll never leave you. I'll never forsake you.
33:11
Speaker 1: I love you.
33:11
Speaker 2: I'll never leave you. I'll never forsake you. This went
33:13
Speaker 2: on for months. I'm talking daily for months. And I'm getting... frustrated.
33:17
Speaker 2: And I'm like, Lord, why do you keep telling me
33:19
Speaker 2: the same thing? And I sensed him in my spirit saying,
33:23
Speaker 2: this is what you need to hear. And so to
33:26
Speaker 2: piggyback on what you're saying to our listener, we can
33:28
Speaker 2: get so stuck in our head. Why is God not
33:31
Speaker 2: doing for me what he's doing for someone else? Why
33:34
Speaker 2: am I not moving quicker? Why am I not getting
33:36
Speaker 2: answers to this problem that I'm trying to present? And
33:40
Speaker 2: I loved your emphasis on trusting him to lead us
33:46
Speaker 2: exactly where we need. And I wonder, Summer, I would
33:49
Speaker 2: love to hear your thoughts on this, but do you think,
33:52
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously it's going to take as long as
33:53
Speaker 2: it's going to take, and I'm borrowing other people's phrases
33:57
Speaker 2: from that, but do you think it might progress a
33:59
Speaker 2: little sooner if we're able to just relax and go
34:03
Speaker 2: with the flow, if we don't get so stuck in
34:05
Speaker 2: our heads, wondering like, I should be farther along or
34:09
Speaker 2: any of those things?
34:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you are exactly right that it's so
34:14
Speaker 1: important to throw it back on God and to recognize
34:19
Speaker 1: that like in Philippians, he who began a good work
34:22
Speaker 1: in me will carry it through to completion until the
34:26
Speaker 1: day of Jesus Christ. So I can choose instead of
34:31
Speaker 1: getting frustrated in my own inner life to recognize he's
34:36
Speaker 1: doing the work. I can trust that he's doing the
34:39
Speaker 1: work and I can keep holding it out to him
34:42
Speaker 1: and say, Lord, this is what I need.
34:45
Speaker 3: You have promised.
34:47
Speaker 1: He who began a good work in me will carry
34:49
Speaker 1: it through to completion. There's also a really interesting scripture.
34:55
Speaker 1: I believe it is Isaiah 51, 14 that says, the
35:00
Speaker 1: one who is in chains will soon be set free.
35:04
Speaker 1: She will not die in her dungeon. nor will she
35:09
Speaker 1: lack bread. Wow. If that is not a word of
35:14
Speaker 1: recognizing that the Lord is doing this work. And so
35:19
Speaker 1: That's what I do. Even this morning as I was
35:22
Speaker 1: walking my dog through the neighborhood and frustrated over a
35:27
Speaker 1: messy experience that I can't see my way out of,
35:32
Speaker 1: I was just holding it out to the Lord saying,
35:35
Speaker 1: He who began a good work in me will carry
35:38
Speaker 1: it through to completion until the day of Jesus Christ.
35:42
Speaker 1: I place myself in your hands again that you are
35:46
Speaker 1: doing this work and that you love me. I think
35:49
Speaker 1: one of our main needs, Jennifer, is to believe. And
35:54
Speaker 1: I'm not saying you have to know this truth, but
35:59
Speaker 1: I am saying that delight and knowing God's desire for
36:04
Speaker 1: us is so much more important than I ever realized
36:09
Speaker 1: that it was. And that's been one of the aha
36:12
Speaker 1: moments for me with this attachment work. There's a really interesting,
36:18
Speaker 1: lovely book if you're a parent or a grandparent called
36:22
Speaker 1: The Six Needs of Every Child. It's super practical in
36:26
Speaker 1: recognizing how to attune to a child's needs. But one
36:31
Speaker 1: of those six needs are delight. Isn't that interesting? And
36:37
Speaker 1: it says a child will not attach to a caregiver
36:41
Speaker 1: that they do not believe delights in them. So I
36:45
Speaker 1: believe that that is one of our greatest needs is
36:49
Speaker 1: to ask the Lord over time, Lord, will you show
36:53
Speaker 1: me that you delighted me?
36:55
Speaker 2: Wow.
36:56
Speaker 1: What will you show.
36:57
Speaker 3: Me that you desire me as your child?
37:02
Speaker 1: Yeah.
37:02
Speaker 2: And I can hear, we don't have time. You got
37:04
Speaker 2: to read the book, but I can just hear some
37:05
Speaker 2: listeners like, well, what if I don't feel delightful? What
37:07
Speaker 2: if I don't? And you talk about that in your book.
37:09
Speaker 2: And so you're going to have to get the book.
37:12
Speaker 2: It's really profound. I would actually encourage you to get
37:14
Speaker 2: the book, get people around you. You can go through
37:16
Speaker 2: it and take it slow. And, and yeah, Just recognize
37:21
Speaker 2: that God is driving the bus. He's leading this. Summer,
37:25
Speaker 2: this has been a beautiful conversation. Thank you so much
37:28
Speaker 2: for joining us.
37:29
Speaker 1: It's such a privilege, Jennifer. And in the book, there's
37:33
Speaker 1: a ton of videos that you can watch as well
37:36
Speaker 1: that I can lead you through parts of this journey
37:40
Speaker 1: where you can position yourself for the Lord to to
37:44
Speaker 1: speak to you and to receive from him. That was
37:48
Speaker 1: extremely important to me, that there would be ways that
37:52
Speaker 1: people could do this work, that it wouldn't just be informational,
37:56
Speaker 1: but would be actually time in the presence of God.
38:00
Speaker 2: I love that.
38:01
Speaker 1: I love that.
38:02
Speaker 2: To our listeners, I want to tell you a little
38:04
Speaker 2: more about her book. So here's a little from the
38:08
Speaker 2: back cover. God's face is always shining towards us. Our
38:11
Speaker 2: God is not asleep nor indifferent, but we don't always
38:14
Speaker 2: experience his nearness or the depth of how beloved we
38:18
Speaker 2: truly are, especially if we've experienced neglect, abandonment, or emotional distance.
38:24
Speaker 2: in our formative human relationships. Drawing from the deep well
38:27
Speaker 2: of scripture, attachment theory, and her own personal story, Reverend
38:31
Speaker 2: Summer Joy Gross invites you to experience Emmanuel, God with
38:37
Speaker 2: us as the one. whose love towards you is secure
38:42
Speaker 2: and unchanging. So she teaches you how to use simple,
38:45
Speaker 2: repeatable practices to awaken to God's nearness. And she mentioned
38:49
Speaker 2: her videos. You can learn from those who've walked before.
38:52
Speaker 2: She shares personal stories as well. And really just, it's
38:56
Speaker 2: a very gentle invitation to wherever you're at now, just
39:01
Speaker 2: to keep orienting your soul to God. And I wanna
39:04
Speaker 2: close with this gentle encouragement. If you've spent years wondering
39:08
Speaker 2: why peace feels so elusive and God seems so distant,
39:12
Speaker 2: The invitation isn't to try harder, to learn more. A
39:16
Speaker 2: lot of us have tried that and it hasn't worked,
39:18
Speaker 2: but rather to consider that maybe Jesus is inviting you closer.
39:22
Speaker 2: One honest conversation, one fear that you entrust to him,
39:26
Speaker 2: one moment of recognizing his presence at a time. And
39:29
Speaker 2: we've already talked about it's a really slow journey, but
39:32
Speaker 2: at least we're moving forward. So, and to our listeners,
39:36
Speaker 2: thank you for listening. If you haven't already done so,
39:39
Speaker 2: I encourage you to subscribe to this podcast, then you
39:42
Speaker 2: won't miss a single episode. And I invite you to
39:44
Speaker 2: share today's conversation with those in your sphere who could
39:47
Speaker 2: use the reminder that they aren't failing in faith. They're
39:51
Speaker 2: learning to live, to love, to engage differently, more deeply
39:56
Speaker 2: connected to the one who, as her book states, is always,
40:00
Speaker 2: I love this phrase, is always turning his face towards us.
40:04
Speaker 2: Until next time, may you live as one who truly
40:07
Speaker 2: has been set free.