Latest / The Growth Class with Phil Masiello / Fashion Entrepreneurship: Building a Lifestyle Brand with Pattie Friedman and Kristin Wilenga

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Fashion Entrepreneurship: Building a Lifestyle Brand with Pattie Friedman and Kristin Wilenga · The Growth Class with Phil Masiello

• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: Hey everybody and welcome back to the show.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: If you've ever wondered how to successfully merge high-end fashion with everyday functionality, or how to build a powerhouse accessories brand with serious attitude, then you're in for a treat today, because my guests are the brilliant minds behind Think Roilin, the go-to label known for revolutionizing the quilted bag and lifestyle accessory market.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: Former FIT roommates, industry veterans, and longtime best friends Patty Friedman and Christine Wilenga spent decades in the New York fashion trenches before striking out on their own to create Cool for Life on the Fly.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: So today we're going to dive into their incredible entrepreneurial journey, how they built a brand rooted in resilience and real life utility and what it takes to stay ahead of the fast-paced world of fashion.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: Patty and Kristen, welcome to the show and thank you for coming on.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having us.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Phil.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, my pleasure.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: Why don't you give us a little bit of a backstory into who you are and then what you've done and then how you got to this point?
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: That'd be great.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: You want to let me start?
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, sure, I'll go.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: So as you mentioned, Kristen and I both went to FIT.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: That's where we met and were roommates for a couple of years there.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: Kristen studied fashion design and merch uh merchandising.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: I studied more on the merchandising side.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: And you know what?
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: This was back in the 80s, 90s time period.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, it was really the Garmin Center.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: It was the, you know, height of really working in the Garmin Center, very fast-paced.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: If you've if you've seen Devil Wears Prada or any of those, this was the time.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: So it was really, it was hustle time.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and we remained good friends all through that time, you know, work hard, play hard type of thing.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, somewhere along the lines, we we always said we kind of wanted to do our own thing, but as much as we would talk ourselves into it, we would talk ourselves out of it, you know, because it can become overwhelming, right?
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_02: So at the beginning of the bottle of Chardonnay, it was a good idea.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: By the end, we were like, I don't know about that.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I I also what I would just add to that is at that time, people were doing full huge collections.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: So you had to have$10 million to launch a brand.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, so we had been involved in all those different things and we kind of understood what we needed.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: And then finally, we just decided, you know what?
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: We were consulting.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: We were both like consulting, working for ourselves.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: It was getting really boring.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: We just said, let's go for something and let's just do it small.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: Let's just try something.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: We have all these great things.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: Let's just do a really small little line, see what happens.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: Like, who cares?
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: And and, you know, Kristen was working with an outerwear and really working with this great lightweight fabrication that, you know, was only being used for that purpose.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: And we're like, oh my God, but it could be so cool in so many other ways, both as fashion and as function.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: And really, you know, especially in the beginning of this, we were all single, we were hanging out with our girlfriends a lot.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: We were making these things for them and for us.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_02: So it was really like girlfriends creating for friends.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, one of the first things Kristen made me now fast forward a few years later, we we all started families, you know, we're kind of all going on this journey that women go on, being working moms, trying to balance it all.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, when we would talk to each other on the phone, we, you know, one of us would inevitably say, gotta go, you know, living life on the fly, gotta hustle.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: And um, we're good with the one-liners.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and um, Kristen just made us all these great bags that could move with us.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, we're gonna be a good thing.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: I think her best one was the poncho.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so Kristen made me because I would look like a lunatic sometimes, well, many times, but in particular, um, my son was playing hockey, so I was the woman in August carrying around a coat, you know, because I'd be freezing at the rink.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: And she made me the most incredible pack packable poncho.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: So as Kristen meant, and like every hockey mom had to have one.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: So we knew we had something women wanted that wasn't existing.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: And we, you know, as Kristen pointed out, we decided, let's just make a small collection.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_02: It was also the kind of time period now where people were um, you know, really editing things, you know, where it was we had all a lot of these brands, but really like the Cherivaris, the the intermixes of the world were kind of moving, you know, like more to a small collection.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: So we're looking at other people that weren't the big designers.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: So that was like a really fortunate thing.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: So designing it.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: And that's really a lot of the retail type of partners, Joan Shep, things like that that we really started with.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: So we decided, as Kristen mentioned, let's just make a small collection.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't too small.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because we never could.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's like packing, you know, you think you're gonna be small, but you're not.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: And we made this collection, it was really our favorites, our girlfriends' favorites, tested and improved, because it was really our girlfriends who were like, okay, guys, it was almost like an intervention.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: We've had enough.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody, you know, everybody wants your stuff.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'm wearing it.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: I tell them, you guys make it, where can they buy it?
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: You can't, it was made for me, this or that.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_02: It's time to do something.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: So we did make a small collection, and a lot of it was bags, but we also had a shoe.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: We had the poncho.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: It was really our favorite.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: We had quilted leg warmers.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: Don't have to be us.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: I still have them and I love them.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and you know, we we took it to a trade show here in New York at the time.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: It was called Capsule, very similar to like DNA, really the smaller, more discovery.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: I want to say one thing about that.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: We were the last people to get a booth, and we got to the show, and our booth was in the middle of the hallway, and we were so upset about it because we're like, seriously, like we look like losers in the middle of the hallway in like walls or anything.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: It was like the biggest blessing in disguise.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone just was like gravitating.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's a good sign when your booth is constantly a mess.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_02: And people are like grabbing things not from the shelf, but from somebody else.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it was really um, it was such a fun experience.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: We had we okay, we looked at each other somewhere between like all the people trying things on and all the mess on the floor and said, We got something.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so that was that was really kind of to us the the launch that was in um 2017.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and you know, it was really great because we had, you know, luxury um retailers that wanted us as the fun, cool add-on.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: And then we had the contemporary that really saw us as something that was missing in the market.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_02: So we really kind of hit on, you know, so many different places for what was missing for women.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: And she really was gravitating towards the bags.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: So Which was it, which was another blessing in disguise.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: Because yeah, we were just like, oh my God, if we were doing clothing, each style would have to have like seven to eight skews.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: A bag is just a bag.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we're like, it was so lucky.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: The merchants in us were like, okay.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: And it really at that time was our crossbodies, our totes, really the everyday bags that every woman needed who is living a million different lifestyles at once.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_02: Because we were CEOs of our own lives, working moms, this, you know, that, you know, just trying to go to the gym when we could, you know, grabbing a coffee with a friend.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_02: So it was really just um that's really where where it started.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think, you know, I think fashion is one of the most difficult channels to go into.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like you said, if you're gonna do a line, right?
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna do a clothing line and you're gonna go on runway, you you have to have millions of dollars behind you to do it.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're if you're gonna try and start small, it's really difficult to start small because the minimums are so big because you've got to do every size, every color.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's skewing down and focusing on something that's uh sort of an afterthought for a lot of, I think a lot of brands, it's it's I think that's probably correct.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: For us, that's really where networking came in because um, you know, we had both at that point kind of been in around the industry for over two decades.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_02: Kristen has incredible manufacturing partners and things like that who were willing to do some things for us.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_02: But it was also the time where you're like really thankful for all the years that you did people favors.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: You were the mentor, you did this.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_02: Because call up somebody and say, Hey, like, do you know a showroom?
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: Or can I hang some bags in your showroom for now?
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: Or hey, do you know this person?
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: Or, you know, and everybody returned our calls.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: And we went way down the list, like for different things.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: It'd be like, Do you remember me?
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: Remember when I did that favor for you?
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: And like honestly, it was really it was it was no one said no.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: That was actually a really good feeling.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: We were like, oh my god, you know, everyone wanted to support and help us as well.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: That's great.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: And you're really thankful for the years that you were that to other people, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's why you put it out there, right?
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: You you put out that stuff to help people, hoping that it's gonna come back to you at some point when you need it.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I want to say this to the young people out there, pick up the phone because that's really what did it pick it up or text or whatever, but you know, um, you know, really communicating with people, right?
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: No, I I think it's fantastic.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: So how did you, you know, is that the the methodology you employed to sort of scale or to start to get sales?
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or was she?
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think we had so we we felt good about, you know, oh great, like we went to this trade show, people love our stuff.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: We knew how to get it made, we knew all these different things.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, to be honest with you, I think our, you know, our we were kind of each tossing in money.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: We didn't have a business plan, and you know, it was literally like a napkin.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like we're both you put in a little money, I'll put in a little money.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_02: This person put like we were doing it that way.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: But really, I think we got to a point where it's like, you know, you really do need to have a good cash flow.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: You do need to have some kind of investment in your company.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_02: You can't run everything on a credit card, even though we did at the beginning, you know, but uh but you just really can't do that.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and and for You can, but it's not sustainable.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: That's sustainable.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: We do not recommend.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_02: But um, you know, I think you were referring also to sales.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: That was the one area that Chris and I didn't have a lot of experience in sales and networking retail partners and things like that.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_02: And that's where we really reached out to our network of people that could really help us with that.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: The trade show obviously kicked off a lot, um, but uh we really needed to position ourselves, and that's when we really reached out to some friends that either had showrooms and and let us temporarily be a part of it and network with them to eventually leading us to a shared showroom that we were in that eventually led to us doing our own showroom.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think one thing too, which was another, I guess, kind of luckier thing, but it worked out really well, and it's something to keep in mind.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_02: We started at the like at the best retail partners, the highest level retail partners, and we were kind of luxury.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: So we were kind of the lower added, you know, fun company in those higher stores.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's very hard to go up.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: You can keep going down, so then we went to more contemporary and more denim and stuff like that and across.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: But it's very hard to be selling to Target and then go up.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I agree wholeheartedly with that.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we have a lot of brands that we help that uh not in fashion, but just in in general, that want to go into Walmart right away.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I say, Well, you go into Walmart, you're you're setting your price and you're setting your category.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: So you're never gonna go higher than that.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's where you're gonna go.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you try and go to somebody else, they're gonna say, Well, I want the same retail price as you're selling at Walmart.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, but you're 100% correct.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: You can always go down.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's like with price.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: When you price something, you can never go up once you once you've set your price, you can only go down.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: So it's the same thing.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: But sales, I think, is always the most difficult part for people, you know, especially designers and and creative people.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's really because they want to create something and they want to and they think, okay, I've created this and people are just going to naturally gravitate towards it.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think you guys got very, very lucky or skillful uh with, you know, the fact that you built something or you created something that uh people were attracted to right away at a trade show.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you also have to be flexible because I mean that's part of the thing too.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's like you can't go into something thinking this is the only thing I'm doing, it's the best idea on the planet, this is who we are, this is a thing.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: Because we have also morphed into different things that have been, I would say, more successful than what we did at the beginning.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like we have our DNA through it, but we have other categories now that actually are taking over kind of our original category.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you have to be really open to that.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we call that the pivot because you know, you start one way and something happens and you go, you know, just like you guys, we're gonna do fashion, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do that, and all of a sudden it's the handbags or the bags that are attractive.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that's let's follow that because sometimes what you think you want to do and what the market tells you to do are two entirely different things.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, exactly.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: So so where do we go now?
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like where are we heading now with this?
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: Because you you hit, did you did you hit a couple of stumbles along the way?
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because you started in the 2017.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: Well, there was that thing, what was it called?
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_02: COVID?
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that was fun.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_02: Our our warehouse closed.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: Our warehouse closed.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_02: We were really had just gotten into some really important majors.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_02: We shipped our goods out, they bounced them, came right back to us, our warehouse closed.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: We had to literally take everything to my home in New Jersey and ship it out.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like it was all over the living room and ship it out from there.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_02: And interestingly, the retail partners that really kept us going through that were the small mom and pop boutiques because they wanted to stay in business.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_02: So they would, you know, so we'd ship them two pieces of something, they would pay us, they'd go deliver a birthday present to somebody.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, curbside delivery.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I also think just people got creative and so did we.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: And we had to be creative and we had to just, you know, just keep going.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I think one thing for us is timing-wise, athleisure became so important at that time.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: And our kind of whole concept with the crossbody and the hands-free um really worked into that time frame.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_02: And that's kind of what we played up.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: And we did, you know, we did our DTC, which really so that was so.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: I think that was really the build of our DTC starting a lot because we had just kind of launched it, but also I dare say COVID was good to us, but it wasn't bad in the sense that we were able to engage her with our lightweight products along with the fashion.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: You know, now she was walking to the supermarket, maybe a mile away, or you know, people were not using public transportation, or maybe, you know, we kind of fit into that hands-free, lightweight going everywhere with you, that we were able to utilize that.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and you know, so it it it we were able to, as you use the word pivot, pivot ourselves during that time.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm also really proud of us that we were such great partners to our boutiques and things.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: We're like, okay, we get it.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: We're all, you know, we can't ship you everything now, we'll ship this.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: We really became very nimble.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I those relationships are still strong now, I think, due to a lot of that because we went through it together.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: I I I have a friend, a guy named Vern Harnish.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: He's a really, really well-known uh author.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: He wrote uh the Rockefeller Habits Scaling Up.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: He started EO, YPO, all those things.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: And uh he he said to me um after COVID, he said, you know, I I coach a lot of people and I told them that, you know, everybody's complaining, oh my God, how are we gonna get through this?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: How are we gonna get through this?
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, you know, you have to change the way you're thinking about it.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: And you have to say to yourself, this is the state, this is reality.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: How am I gonna continue to move forward?
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: Where there's because with every problem that occurs, there's always an opportunity.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: We see it today with other things that are going on in the world between tariffs and you know, and and shipping problems and the cost of energy and and and and things like that.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: But you have to continue to move forward because if you don't, then you just you know you're just gonna give up.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, sitting there and saying, okay, and I've been there bringing your stuff into your house and you know, and shipping out of your house and doing all that, you do what you have to do to stay alive and try and figure out another channel or another way to sell your product.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: Because we can all complain about COVID.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I watched many, many companies actually fall apart during COVID, big companies that fell apart during COVID.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I saw the smaller, nimbler ones figure it out and start moving in a totally different direction and wound up uh healthier and stronger today than they ever were.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: Which I think is an important point about being nimble, because that's a lesson.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_02: Once you've learned it and you've done the opposite, you you don't need to learn it again.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know what I mean?
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like one you you have to keep yourself, you have to keep some money in the bank.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: You have to keep your team tight.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: Because you'll have a couple of successful years and you'll be like, okay, we're doubling business, we're doubling business, we're doubling business.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: And then you hit a year where you're like, wait a minute, we're not doubling business.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: We're lucky be up four percent.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I think you always have to kind of think in that way a little bit and keep your cushion.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: I I am a firm believer in being a bit conservative on the cash side because uh you know, you're 100% correct.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: I've never seen anything continue.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing's ever any business that I've ever started, any business that I've ever coached, any business that I've ever seen has never been a hockey stick that just continued to rise and rise and rise.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: And um you know, I saw I have a friend, uh not a friend, uh you know, uh greenies, the dog uh uh treats, greenies.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: They I don't, but they sound delicious.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, they're they're for dogs and cats that you know help with breath and set et cetera.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I I know the founder of that company, and he started it when he was in his 50s.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: And his wife, talk about running a business on credit cards.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: They his wife had a spreadsheet of all the credit cards, and they were just moving money around while he was trying to get that product into like PetSmart and and get it going.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, you know, it took me seven years before the hockey stick started.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: He said, and then it started and it got to a plateau, and then it started again and a plateau and it started again.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: Finally, he sold out to Mars, but you know, which I'm sure he's not upset about at this point.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: But still, you know, it was it was years and years and years of pain before he had the outcome that everybody dreams of, right?
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm sure you guys still go through that every once in a while.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I would say, I would say, like probably our the thing that's the hardest for us, honestly, it's cash flow.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's it really hardest for everybody.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's it's the cash flow.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like we'll look at our account, we'll be like, woo, and then we'll look and we'll go, oh my God.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like it's the constant, you know, and it's just really it's really watching it.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: And and you know, which you don't, if you're not in a business, you don't think about it, but you get a great order.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we had an order for like a million and a half dollars from someone.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: It was the biggest order.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: We were like, you know, golden ticket, can't believe we just got that huge order.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: And it really hurt us for a year.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: Because the cash flow.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we really had to be I mean, it's crazy.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: Like you're it's not just about making money, it's about managing it.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's about absolutely managing cash.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, making a profit and managing cash are two entirely different things.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: And managing the cash, cash is is oxygen for the business.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: Without, you cut off the cash and and you're done.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of people get, like you said, hey, we have all this cash in the bank today, and then tomorrow all of a sudden you go and look and say, what happened?
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: And then we had to pay rent, we had to pay, make payroll, we had to do this, we had to do this, and the order came out.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you have to.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: But you're a thousand percent correct in the fact that inventory uses up cash.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not just the inventory.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: You get an order today in January.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure how your business works, but I know from from other businesses, you know, you get an order in January, then you have to buy the materials, you have to get the manufacturer to manufacture it, you have to do all these things.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: So you've got this money out for a million and a half dollar order, you've got a million dollars out that you're not getting paid for for, say, six months.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: You know, because then they have 30, 60, oh, now we'd like 90.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, we're we're changing our policy.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, everybody is uh is you know, you're financing everybody else's business at that point.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: Retail is very, very difficult, I think.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's why I like direct to consumer, because you know, you sell it, you get paid.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, whether or not you can scale that is in in different in different industries is is uh is a big deal.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: So where do we go from here?
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: Where are you guys rising to now?
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think the one thing that we we did a few years ago and we continue to do is in when we started, we were, as I mentioned, kind of our crossbodies and our totes.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, now we're really her handbag wardrobe, her bag wardrobe.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: So really anticipating, and I think COVID taught us a lot about that, really anticipating what's the next thing that's gonna happen and where are we gonna position ourselves to be in her life.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: So she went to pickleball.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, once everyone was kind of post to COVID, they wanted to go out again, they wanted to travel again.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: So we really took those opportunities to foreshadow what she would need in in her bag life.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: So um now it's like not just it's we have the everyday bags that she needs, but is she gonna go travel?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: Is she sporting?
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: Is she going to the gym?
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: What is she doing?
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: Anticipating what that is to build her wardrobe.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um and we continue to do that.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's really not only helped it's it by far has helped our DTC.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's what has made our DTC.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_02: And one thing I think we're really proud of is our our loyal return customer.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_02: She wants keep building off of what she's had um and the different parts of her life and then the friend she wants to give it to and this and that um we just need more of them that's where we're that's where we need to scale now is building more of that community the community that's been so good to us and continues to be good to us we know there's more of her and we need to capture them and that's really our our focus whether it's it's it's DTC as as well as the boutique business that halo effect of having both has been really precious to us.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah absolutely what do you think your uh your biggest bottleneck to scaling higher is cash flow cash yeah cash I mean honestly it's like I would say the majority we we spend money on product and overhead and whatever we have left over is spent on marketing if we had a bigger chunk for marketing because you know you can build a website and you can build product and whatever you got to get people there.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not just by building a website and we, you know, through all the different channels.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I think now there's a lot of competition and you really have to get in front of those people.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_02: Once we get in front of those people even if it's a boutique or if it's an individual on our DTC we have reorders.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: But it's just getting in front of them.
• 23:17
  unknown: Right.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's really been and nurturing those relationships and keeping them going and things like that.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: But you know Kristen I always say you know if we really wanted to we we we are which we would continue either way we're very thoughtful about our scaling okay we believed in travel we built it but we built it to where we could afford it then we layered on top of it even more.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: So we are very mindful of that.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's you know we run with a very very very lean team probably too lean.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: They say that but we say that too um extremely talented but it's a small group what more could we do?
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: I think a lot of that we're we're we're gonna keep scaling but we're gonna keep scaling to where we can afford it.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: If we had more muscle and money because I not just the money but the muscle that goes along with it.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think the really the possibilities are so scalable and and incredible.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah I I hear you I think so um you know one of the things that always happen I don't want to say always happens but I'm gonna think about how to phrase this correctly but I've watched brands that are in your position that run lean and are very creative with how they get things done.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then they get a chunk of money whether it's from investors or whatever and they all start just going to try and scale faster and they just waste the money.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because you have to be as thoughtful and as conservative as you are now forever.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's how you get creative.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that there's ways in my in my opinion to do to achieve what you want to achieve without spending huge amounts of money.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm never a big fan of jumping into advertising because advertising is sort of a it's a support mechanism and a lot of people use it in the wrong way and they spend a lot of money and they just don't get a return on it, which I think is is horrible when there's other ways to do things, especially on social, I mean I look at your social media channels and I think you know I think you guys show your your brand and your product really well and I think you could use that to your advantage to build community you know and do some other things with it, which is more effort than it is capital, right?
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know you could get really I was going to say I agree but I will say that you know our direct competitors are 10 times the size of us.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_02: They have 10 times the budget.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_02: So we are always I mean we're trying to always be super creative and really and I think one of the things is we always look at everything that we're doing and it's it's hard to always look at it through a lens, you know, because you're doing it.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: But we always try to do fashion first.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a lot of people that are kind of in this space but they're not as much doing fashion first.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: And we're always trying to keep that lens and you know we get tons, you know, like anything else you get tons of ideas from people and they give you thing and we get something we're like we like it but is that really is that the next thing that's going to go on next year that's going to keep going or are we just liking it?
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_02: No I know I I think that it's it's always good to be aware of your competition but it's never good to and I think the thing is if if there was like a like you mentioned sudden influx of money I don't think we would just throw it toward advertising.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: I think it would actually be scaling scaling people and talent into the right channels of, you know, we're we're about to do some updates on our website you know now you have to be able to manage that would we want some more UGC it would be more like that continuing to do what we're doing like baby steps not just like oh my God we got all this money let's throw it into that smart let's just give it to Meta it's it's really please don't do that.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yes no no no it's taking those sound bites that we know she would appreciate and build that community that are working let's just pull the levers a little bit more and a little bit higher until we see the reaction um and I think that's really the way we're looking to to scale it um you know it's really a lot about you know I I mean I so funny I did this at my son's school recently they they did like a career day and I went in and you know it was talking about marketing and this and that and you know I was telling them back in the day you would you would go to get you know you would do a photo shoot to get five great pictures that would carry you the entire season you would turn the magazine you would see it in every publication and they're all like magazine you know this whole thing you would work you know I showed a campaign I once worked for DK and why that was the thing that was your campaign that was the super that was the whole thing.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: Now it's like we do a photo shoot and I'm like I'm gonna need to get 76 shots an hour the content of what you need and how you need it has just changed you know I mean I think as far as on the marketing side that's the biggest you know biggest change and then you have on the flip side you have your whole wholesale everybody's buying I I'm I know I should place my order now but I'm gonna place it the day before I actually need you to ship it.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah yeah you know so so those big changes have really kind of you know yeah they're challenges the changes are challenges and then you know what's what I'm really proud of about our team as lean as it is they're very talented in Aries but they're also very renaissance.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like your job is not one thing.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_02: Your job is you know you know everybody kind of you know crosses over I think you always kind of get that in a smaller company but even more so here like you're you're gonna you're gonna learn a lot.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah and you're gonna be used to try a lot too I think that's also the one of those nimble things like you can try it.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_02: You can't spend any money but you can try it.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah yeah well I think that the amount of content that people need today if brands need today is is tremendous but at the on the flip side of that it's you don't need as polished content as you used to have because you can do it because people want authenticity.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: I want to say on brand I think that's what Kristen kind of alluded to earlier that's that's the one you know thing you do but that's true.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: There's so much more you can do um grassroots now and and that kind of renaissance and people appreciate it customers appreciate it.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_02: To me actually it's a little scary but at the same time it's extremely invigorating.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: No I think what you guys are the one thing I will say that I I really enjoy is is listening to you talk and keep referring to her and she and what she needs and what she needs because that sort of tells me that you have an idea in your head about you know the persona of who you're going after and most most times when you talk to brand we talk about the customer and this and that it's very it's different.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know she's not and the only other person I ever heard that from was was when I we did business at HSN and we heard it from like Mindy Grossman and her team about they they always referred to her and she and you know what she wants and when she wants it.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a it's it's refreshing.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: But we're just about out of time.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: I really appreciate you guys coming on why I know it's like a half an hour.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: But I I I appreciate you guys coming on and uh thank you for having us this was really yeah it was really fun yeah thank you it was very fun and and very in uh very insightful and very uh very unique so I've never done a pair before I've never done two people uh really on the podcast no I have not like we're kind of one and the same yeah yeah we drink the same chardonnay we eat the same ones we do yeah you talk the same too and you're uh you know and you know when to talk to each other it's really kind of fun so yeah I think it'll be enjoyable and uh you know I appreciate it thank you for coming on and uh good luck with uh with the brand I'm sure you'll do continue to do great things uh and uh yeah and our and our motto is the hustle is real because the hustle the hustle never ends the hustle never ends and where can people find your product absolutely on our website wwwthinkroyland.com we're also um at Bloomingdale's Nordstrom Stillard's um shop op Shop Bop's involve um every if you're in the Midwest um so yeah you can find and and a lot of your local boutiques that's fantastic and if you need to know exactly where please feel free to email us we we answer a lot of the emails so there you go we'll put the link to your uh to your website in the uh in the description so people know where to find you we'll put the link to your social media in there because I want everybody to see your social media because I think it's it's really great and really well done.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_02: I'm definitely going to relay that to the team.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah I think it's really well done I it's one of the things that uh really caught my eye.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: But I again I appreciate it thank you for coming on and unfortunately we are out of time.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: All right thank you Bill thank you thank you