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Teen Vigilante Guns Down 3, Heads to Jury · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. As we go to air,
0:15
Speaker 1: the National Guard has been called in in the so
0:18
Speaker 1: called Kenosha shooting case. Kyle Rittenhouse, then seventeen years old,
0:24
Speaker 1: guns down three people, leaving two dead. Seems like everybody
0:30
Speaker 1: there that night in the middle of BLM protests had
0:34
Speaker 1: a cell phone. So there's plenty video footage and what
0:39
Speaker 1: it shows is this young man carrying a semi automatic
0:43
Speaker 1: weapon was actually chased. So how can a teen vigilante
0:50
Speaker 1: who goes in loaded for bear, armed to the hilt
0:54
Speaker 1: end up claiming self defense? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
1:09
Speaker 1: I want you to take a listen to what we
1:12
Speaker 1: have learned of that night. Listen to this. Yeah, that's
1:15
Speaker 1: Aunt two for man. Well we got a good beggy.
1:24
Speaker 1: You shot I need to shot up a right? Heard
1:42
Speaker 1: shot up? All right? He shot about it? You we're
1:52
Speaker 1: hearing sound that was provided by Brendan Grudenschwager via storyfold
1:56
Speaker 1: dot com. That is, as we say, nat sound, natural
2:00
Speaker 1: sound happening at that moment, and the gunshots you heard
2:05
Speaker 1: that was nobody firing into the air that resulted in death.
2:11
Speaker 1: I mean, see, Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you
2:13
Speaker 1: for being with us here at Fox Nation and Series
2:16
Speaker 1: M eleven. We are, of course covering the trial as
2:19
Speaker 1: it is happening of tyle Rittenhouse. So the defense, self defense,
2:27
Speaker 1: the video. The jury will have it, and I'm sure
2:30
Speaker 1: they will do what I have done, play it over
2:33
Speaker 1: and over in slow motion to try to understand what
2:36
Speaker 1: happened that night with me at All Star panel to
2:38
Speaker 1: make sense of what we know right now. First of all,
2:40
Speaker 1: high profile lawyer joining us out of LA Troy Slayton,
2:44
Speaker 1: Karen Start, renowned New York psychologists joining us from Manhattan.
2:48
Speaker 1: Dan Corcenttito, former Police of Chief, former Sheriff, US Homeland
2:52
Speaker 1: Security Senior Advisory Board now PI at Dan Corsentino dot com.
2:57
Speaker 1: Renowned medical examiner joining us from Madison Heights, doctor William Moroney,
3:03
Speaker 1: author of American Narcan Spencer Course and founder President Course
3:07
Speaker 1: in Security. But first to Alexis Terreschuck Crime Online dot
3:11
Speaker 1: com investigative reporter, thank you for being with us. Alexis,
3:14
Speaker 1: did court start on time? Because I predict to last
3:18
Speaker 1: night then'd be late. As of right now it has
3:21
Speaker 1: not started. That live dream is showing the feal of
3:24
Speaker 1: the State of Wisconsince of doubts okay. And another thing
3:27
Speaker 1: on that troice Slaton, that doesn't mean anybody is a laggard.
3:30
Speaker 1: It's not the judge's fault. It's neither of the party's
3:33
Speaker 1: fault that we know of. Wasn't a while you have
3:36
Speaker 1: a jurar trickle in late. They couldn't catch the bus there,
3:40
Speaker 1: couldn't drop their child off quickly enough and drop off
3:44
Speaker 1: at school. For whatever reason, everything has got to be
3:48
Speaker 1: primed and ready. So you always see delays, especially just
3:53
Speaker 1: before closing arguments. Choice Slaton, because the judge following closing
3:58
Speaker 1: arguments well struct the jury all the law by which
4:02
Speaker 1: they are to judge this case. For instance, will it
4:05
Speaker 1: just be a flat out murder charge or will the
4:08
Speaker 1: defense agree to voluntary manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter, negligent homicide. You
4:15
Speaker 1: just go down the list. My point is choice lightness.
4:19
Speaker 1: Nobody's fault that they're starting late. That's true, Nancy. There's
4:23
Speaker 1: a million reasons why the trial would not start exactly
4:27
Speaker 1: on time. All the best intentions doesn't mean that all
4:32
Speaker 1: the things line up at the right moment. But what's
4:35
Speaker 1: really important here what Judge Schroeder is going to be doing,
4:39
Speaker 1: like him instructing the jury on the elements of both
4:44
Speaker 1: the crime and the defenses. Rittenhouse's defense of self defense
4:49
Speaker 1: requires that the jury finds certain elements that he was
4:53
Speaker 1: in fear for his life and that the action that
4:57
Speaker 1: he took shooting these people was necessar serry to protect
5:01
Speaker 1: life or limb fear of immediate damage, immediately harm, immediate harm.
5:09
Speaker 1: It has to be real fear and has to be immediate,
5:13
Speaker 1: and has to be of serious bodily injury or death.
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Speaker 1: And nancy, it's also that he can't have provoked it.
5:20
Speaker 1: There was a lot of argument on Friday about whether
5:24
Speaker 1: or not the judge should instruct the jury on provocation,
5:28
Speaker 1: and the prosecutors won that, and Judge Schroeder will be
5:33
Speaker 1: instructing the jurors that if Kyle Rittenhouse provoked the attack
5:38
Speaker 1: on himself, if he was an aggressor in any way,
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Speaker 1: if he was pointing the gun at people causing them
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Speaker 1: to attack him, then he loses the self defense argument.
5:49
Speaker 1: You're right, now, self defense under our law is a
5:52
Speaker 1: complete defense. If a juror believes that he acted in
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Speaker 1: self defense when he shot three people, then he will
6:01
Speaker 1: walk Scott free. That's a mighty tall order. Self defense
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Speaker 1: once probably self defense twice, maybe self defense three times.
6:11
Speaker 1: Okay to you, Spencer Course, and let's talk about why
6:14
Speaker 1: a teen is out on the street alone with this
6:19
Speaker 1: kind of weapon. Tell me about the weapon, Spencer Course
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Speaker 1: and founder, President Course and Security Group, Nancy. Thank you.
6:25
Speaker 1: The weapon is identified as a Smith and Wesson MNP fifteen,
6:30
Speaker 1: which is a R fifteen styled semi automatic rifle. It
6:34
Speaker 1: has a thirty round magazine, which is the magazine that
6:38
Speaker 1: Kyle Writtenhouse had loaded into the weapon on the night
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Speaker 1: in question. And semi automatic, of course, means that one
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Speaker 1: bullet is fired for every pull of the trigger. Now
6:47
Speaker 1: that's important, and I'm going to go back to you,
6:50
Speaker 1: Troy Slayton, because murder one requires malice, forethought, premeditation. But
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Speaker 1: under the law, premeditation does not require a very prolonged
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Speaker 1: period of thinking, such as me poisoning you every single
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Speaker 1: morning when you drive through Starbucks till you just kill
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Speaker 1: over dead. Premeditation give me formed in the blink of
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Speaker 1: an eye, the twinkling of a moment, the time it
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Speaker 1: takes you to raise the gun and pull the trigger.
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Speaker 1: That is enough time under the law to think about
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Speaker 1: what you're doing, much less fire repeatedly. And what you're
7:21
Speaker 1: hearing from Spencer Coursen is with this particular gun an
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Speaker 1: AAR fifteen type weapon, it looks like a machine gun.
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Speaker 1: That's what it looks like. You have to pull the
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Speaker 1: trigger for each shot. In other words, that is time
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Speaker 1: for him to form premeditation under the law, Troy. Yes,
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Speaker 1: but the important word that you said was malice, and
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Speaker 1: that's what it's going to come down to for the jury.
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Speaker 1: Was he malicious? Was he trying to kill people? Was
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Speaker 1: he doing this because of a depraved mind? Was he
7:55
Speaker 1: doing it with evil intent? Or what we call in
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Speaker 1: the law men's ray. You have this, this desire to
8:03
Speaker 1: do kill, and now that are going to be before
8:08
Speaker 1: you disseminate that isn't it true? Trying to answer with
8:11
Speaker 1: the yes no. Isn't it true that the law presumes
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Speaker 1: you intend the natural consequence of your act. For instance,
8:20
Speaker 1: if I were to hold up a piece of fine
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Speaker 1: china and throw it to a cement floor, the law
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Speaker 1: would presume I mean to break it. Do you agree
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Speaker 1: with that? Yes? Yes? Now, and so if you can
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Speaker 1: point a gun, kinds Mike, if you point a gun
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Speaker 1: and pull the trigger, the law presumes that you mean
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Speaker 1: to shoot the person. This is just about self defense.
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Speaker 1: And then what do you do you mean to do
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Speaker 1: the act? Do you mean to point the gun and
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Speaker 1: pull the trigger. The law presumes you intend the consequence
8:54
Speaker 1: of your act. So all we're looking at is does
8:58
Speaker 1: he intend to point the gun and pull the trigger
9:00
Speaker 1: at someone? The only defense here is self defense. It's
9:04
Speaker 1: all he's got going for him. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace,
9:23
Speaker 1: I want to talk about what we see on the video,
9:26
Speaker 1: Alexis to Roschuk, because we don't have to tell the
9:28
Speaker 1: jury what happened, they can see it on video. Let's
9:32
Speaker 1: start with victim number one chronologically, Joseph Rosenbaum. What I
9:37
Speaker 1: saw in the video, alexis FBI video eighty five feet
9:42
Speaker 1: up in the air, grainy, but I can figure it out.
9:45
Speaker 1: Is I see Rosenbaum chase rittenhouse across the parking lot.
9:52
Speaker 1: A witness earlier says, alexis that Rosenbaum says, if I
9:57
Speaker 1: get one of you guys talking about the guys there
10:00
Speaker 1: to protect the business, says, if I get one of
10:02
Speaker 1: you guys alone, I'm gonna f and kill you. So
10:04
Speaker 1: we already know he his intent, and then he chases
10:06
Speaker 1: written house across a parks a lot. Tell me about
10:09
Speaker 1: that video. So he does chase written House across the
10:11
Speaker 1: parking lot and then he kind of stopped, but he
10:14
Speaker 1: throws something at Rittenhouse and you don't know what it
10:18
Speaker 1: is really because it started his nighttime. Well what it
10:21
Speaker 1: ended up being in it's a plastic bag. So Rittenhouse
10:24
Speaker 1: then turns around because the plastic bags thrown at him,
10:27
Speaker 1: turns around. Then he comes close to him. Rosenboum comes
10:32
Speaker 1: up to him, in fact, so close that his hand
10:35
Speaker 1: is on the barrel of the rifle. This is not
10:38
Speaker 1: a small handgun that Kyle Rittenhouse was hearing. This is
10:41
Speaker 1: the gun that he was illegally, not supposed to have, legally,
10:43
Speaker 1: not supposed have. He had it illegally, and he is
10:45
Speaker 1: holding it and Rosenbaum is holding the front of it,
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Speaker 1: and this perhaps maybe he'd takes away, get it away
10:50
Speaker 1: from his face. And written House opens fire on him,
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Speaker 1: shooting him four times. He chased him across a parking lot.
10:58
Speaker 1: Dan Corcentino for Police Chief Fromer Sheriff us Homo Security
11:03
Speaker 1: Senior Advisory Board. Now, PI, what about that look When
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Speaker 1: I first heard this story and I hear one Sheeter
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Speaker 1: goes the twenty five miles at least from his home
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Speaker 1: in Antioch, Indiana to Kenosha to protect businesses with an
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Speaker 1: r I'm n o. He goets down three people, he's
11:26
Speaker 1: going to jail. But when I see the video, Dan Corcentti,
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Speaker 1: you know it's not like that. The video suggests very
11:33
Speaker 1: strongly that there is an environment that's being created by
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Speaker 1: both individuals Rosenbaum and Huber in regards to an imminent
11:44
Speaker 1: threat to Ritten House, and then appears also the one
11:49
Speaker 1: of the questions becomes, at least for the defense, is
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Speaker 1: the speed of the decisions of Written House when he
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Speaker 1: was firing the weapon, when he pulled the figure numerous
12:00
Speaker 1: time or actullently pulled the figure four times, I believe
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Speaker 1: at that in this situation. So yes, there is a
12:10
Speaker 1: question about an amment danger. There's a question about perception,
12:15
Speaker 1: and I think that this case is slowly going to
12:18
Speaker 1: be decided on self with these absolutely guys. I want
12:21
Speaker 1: you to take a listen to this. It's our cut eleven.
12:23
Speaker 1: This is Hilary miss Wi s N twelve. Listen. Thirty
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Speaker 1: six year old Joseph Rosenbaum, who prosecutors say was unarmed,
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Speaker 1: was the first man shot by Rittenhouse, seen here in
12:33
Speaker 1: video edited and released by Rittenhouse's defense team. Rosenbaum from
12:37
Speaker 1: Texas was living in Kenosha. Friends called him Jojo. He
12:41
Speaker 1: had a daughter and fiance. As Rittenhouse took off down
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Speaker 1: Sheridan Rode. Rittenhouse falls to the ground, shoots and misses
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Speaker 1: one man. Then Anthony Hubert uses his skateboard and tries
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Speaker 1: to take Rittenhouse's gun. He ran up on somebody with
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Speaker 1: an assault rafle dent nothing like he was just going
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Speaker 1: to tackle. Due to the ground, Rittenhouse fired, killing twenty
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Speaker 1: six year old Huber, who also lived in Kenosha. He
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Speaker 1: already killed someone. He killed someone already and then he
13:08
Speaker 1: killed my My wife has ribbed him away like after Hubert.
13:15
Speaker 1: Gage Grosscroitz of West Dallas in the crowd. As a
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Speaker 1: medic approaches written House, who is still on the ground,
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Speaker 1: Grosscroitz is armed with a handgun. House shoots him in
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Speaker 1: the arm. He was the lone survivor, a lone survivor,
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Speaker 1: a lone survivor that we learned originally left out the
13:33
Speaker 1: factory police that he the victim. The shooting victim pointed
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Speaker 1: a gun at Ritten House. I mean, you know, bottom line,
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Speaker 1: if we're having this much trouble. I don't see any
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Speaker 1: way a jury is going to be unanimous in a verdict.
13:50
Speaker 1: To doctor William Moroney, Doctor Moroney, thank you for being
13:53
Speaker 1: with us. Could you explain the injury to the first victim? Chronologically,
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Speaker 1: Joe if Rosenbaum. Rosenbaum is the guy, and we see
14:03
Speaker 1: this on the FBI video, the aerial drone footage. It
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Speaker 1: looks as if doctor Moroney, correct me if I'm wrong,
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Speaker 1: Alexa's just jump in. It looks as if Rittenhouse is
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Speaker 1: walking by and he has some kind of verbal interaction
14:17
Speaker 1: with Rosenbaum. Rittenhouse takes off across the parking lot. Rosenbaum
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Speaker 1: chases him, and from what we understand, written House, here's
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Speaker 1: a good in the distance. He turns around. He then
14:31
Speaker 1: sees Rosenbaum lunge at him and he shoots. Tell me
14:36
Speaker 1: about the injuries. How did Rosenbaum get shot in the back.
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Speaker 1: The first and most important shot is his hands were
14:47
Speaker 1: on the barrel. He took a bullet through his hand.
14:49
Speaker 1: It went into the pavement, ricochet up and went into
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Speaker 1: his side. The second shot that destabilized his stance when
15:00
Speaker 1: from the gun into his hip and groin area and
15:03
Speaker 1: shattered his helvets. He spins around because he lost his balance,
15:12
Speaker 1: and his back comes forward as he goes down, and
15:17
Speaker 1: that is when Rittenhouse pulls the trigger again, and the
15:22
Speaker 1: third shot grazes his head, takes off a little skin.
15:26
Speaker 1: But that fourth shot, as Rosenbaum continues to spin around,
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Speaker 1: goes into his back. It's approximately at the lower middle
15:37
Speaker 1: half of his scapula, right that that shoulder blade bone.
15:43
Speaker 1: That's how high it is. And it's said to go
15:47
Speaker 1: through and nick some lungs and nick some liver. But
15:51
Speaker 1: the problem is the speed, the power, the energy of
15:57
Speaker 1: that bullet is not going to just make a hole.
16:00
Speaker 1: It does something called cavitation. Cavitation is the energy shockwave,
16:07
Speaker 1: and in feet per second, its speed was three thousand,
16:13
Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty feet per second. If you do
16:17
Speaker 1: the math and you translate that in miles per hour,
16:20
Speaker 1: which we understand better than feet per second for energy,
16:24
Speaker 1: that's the distance from Atlanta to Vegas. That's two thousand,
16:30
Speaker 1: two hundred miles per hour. You take all that energy
16:33
Speaker 1: to travel from Atlanta to Vegas in one hour and
16:37
Speaker 1: compress it into a tenth of a second. That's why
16:42
Speaker 1: his lungs obliterated on that fourth shot. He didn't shoot
16:47
Speaker 1: a man on the ground in the back. The two
16:51
Speaker 1: of them were in a position whereas the first shot
16:54
Speaker 1: in the hip destabilized Rosenbaum, and he spun around because
17:01
Speaker 1: he was falling from the shot that shattered his pelvis.
17:06
Speaker 1: And that final shot was the fatal shot. Sometimes they
17:10
Speaker 1: call it a kill shot. That kill shot was not
17:14
Speaker 1: a direct shot to a man running away. It was
17:18
Speaker 1: a man spinning into him. That's how that happened. You know,
17:22
Speaker 1: doctor Moroney, you have a way of explaining things that
17:30
Speaker 1: just stops everything, and your words are so powerful. And
17:37
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about Rosenbaum dying like that out in a
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Speaker 1: parking lot between some cars, and my heart just breaks
17:49
Speaker 1: to think of that. Time Stories with Nancy Grace to you,
18:10
Speaker 1: Karen Stark. The jury's got to grapple with what ro Sinbaum,
18:15
Speaker 1: what Huber went through. They've got to reconcile that with
18:22
Speaker 1: the fact that both of them were chasing rittenhouse. It's
18:28
Speaker 1: not easy. When I hear Moroney explaining how Rosenbaum died,
18:36
Speaker 1: I want right now is to go under the jail.
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Speaker 1: But then the video shows me Rosenbaum said, I'm gonna
18:44
Speaker 1: f and kill you if I get you alone and
18:47
Speaker 1: then chases him. I mean, that's why juries are always
18:51
Speaker 1: so torn up. They don't want to talk to anybody
18:53
Speaker 1: when they leave that court house. They just want to
18:54
Speaker 1: go home. This is why this is a particularly confusing case.
18:59
Speaker 1: If you ask me, Nancy, it's just so. It's just
19:03
Speaker 1: what with all kinds of perception, and when I think
19:07
Speaker 1: about it, and I can't come up with a right
19:10
Speaker 1: or wrong, but one in the world was he doing
19:13
Speaker 1: kyl written haas, what's that's done? Okay, well, say you're
19:17
Speaker 1: falling in a trap, Karen. Start all the years I've
19:20
Speaker 1: known you, and I think you're smarter than that, you're
19:23
Speaker 1: fault Well, okay, actually no, because that is what every
19:26
Speaker 1: single person says that I asked, what do you think
19:28
Speaker 1: about writtenhouse? Well, it should have been out there. Well,
19:31
Speaker 1: that's true, But the issue is is he guilty or
19:35
Speaker 1: was it self defense? We all agree you shouldn't have
19:37
Speaker 1: been there, Karen. Of course you shouldn't have been there, Nancy.
19:40
Speaker 1: But that's that's why everybody keeps bringing it up, because
19:44
Speaker 1: it seems like provocation. It seems like you're asking for
19:48
Speaker 1: something to happen, that you're there to protect, you saying
19:52
Speaker 1: you're protecting, but you're doing well. Wait wait wait, wait, wait,
19:56
Speaker 1: hold on, Alexis Terress shut Jackie, New York Studio. I
20:01
Speaker 1: just got notice that they may have dropped the provocation instruction,
20:06
Speaker 1: and if that is true, that is a whole game changer.
20:10
Speaker 1: Back to you, Troy Slaton, Elections jump in whenever you
20:13
Speaker 1: find that out. For me, Troy, that's a big deal.
20:17
Speaker 1: Now try to talk like a regular person, no Latin phrases,
20:21
Speaker 1: and to explain why this is going to be a
20:23
Speaker 1: big deal. It's a big deal, Nancy, because it's really
20:26
Speaker 1: the prosecution's only avenue to try and convince the jury
20:32
Speaker 1: during their two and a half hour opportunity to speak
20:36
Speaker 1: to the jurors directly about the state of the evidence
20:39
Speaker 1: and and tell them why self defense doesn't apply. No legalities.
20:45
Speaker 1: Just correct me if I'm wrong, All right. Kyle Writtenhouse
20:49
Speaker 1: goes down three people in the middle of a BLM protest.
20:52
Speaker 1: He claims he's there to protect businesses and be a medic,
20:55
Speaker 1: but somehow he's running around with an ar Simi on
20:59
Speaker 1: his on his back. Okay, these people run after him. Really,
21:05
Speaker 1: all three of them come after the answer. Yes, the
21:10
Speaker 1: state has withdrawn the request for the provocation. Wow, I'm shocked. Okay,
21:17
Speaker 1: back to what we were saying, that self defense, whether
21:21
Speaker 1: we like it or not, Whether we think he should
21:23
Speaker 1: have been there or shouldn't have been there, that doesn't matter.
21:26
Speaker 1: What matters is was he the aggressor when he shot
21:30
Speaker 1: the victims or were they the aggressor? Was he acting
21:34
Speaker 1: in self defense? Now? Provocation, as Roye Slayton correctly said,
21:38
Speaker 1: is if Writtenhouse provoked them into chasing him, then you'll
21:45
Speaker 1: lose your self defense. That's no longer really a defense, right.
21:48
Speaker 1: An easy way to think of it, Nancy, is you
21:50
Speaker 1: can't claim that you're defending yourself if you start a fight,
21:54
Speaker 1: you can exactly light or get somebody to attack you.
21:58
Speaker 1: Let's say even in a bar fight. You can't get
22:01
Speaker 1: somebody to attack you and then beat them up, kill
22:04
Speaker 1: them and claiming self defense. Why would they withdraw that,
22:08
Speaker 1: Troy Well, I guess it means that they wanted to
22:11
Speaker 1: keep some sort of legitimacy with the jury. They felt
22:15
Speaker 1: maybe they were honest and moral prosecutors, and they felt
22:19
Speaker 1: that they didn't meet the elements for provocation. Maybe they
22:23
Speaker 1: felt that they just couldn't prove it. Okay, yeah, whatever
22:26
Speaker 1: bombshell like this, try shuck. I know we're talking inside
22:29
Speaker 1: baseball here, but that is a huge factor and where
22:33
Speaker 1: this case is going to go. And I mean, let
22:35
Speaker 1: me just do a straw vote right now. Who on
22:39
Speaker 1: this panel and in this control in the studio can
22:42
Speaker 1: tell me you have a verdict Medeia. Medeia says he's guilty, Okay,
22:48
Speaker 1: Kara Hung, Jackie Hung, Troy, I think it's going to
22:54
Speaker 1: be a not guilty. How would you vote? That's the question.
22:57
Speaker 1: I would vote, not guilty, share not only on that,
23:00
Speaker 1: just the misdemeanor charge of possession. Okay, Mike again, Karen,
23:05
Speaker 1: start vote quickly. Hung. Okay, so you're Hung Corsantino, not guilty.
23:12
Speaker 1: That's how you would vote, right, That's how I would vote. Moroni,
23:16
Speaker 1: I say not guilty, and I was born and raised
23:19
Speaker 1: in Kenosha. He's gonna walk on this. But you're saying
23:24
Speaker 1: not guilty, right, I don't care what you think. The
23:26
Speaker 1: jury's Nick, Okay, Courson not guilty, alexis guilty. Okay, I'm sorry,
23:32
Speaker 1: but you and media have just hung the jury. Okay,
23:35
Speaker 1: because I got two nights, I've got two guilties and wait,
23:38
Speaker 1: Alexis say not guilty or guilty? Okay, yeah, the two
23:41
Speaker 1: of you. Okay, you just hung the jury. My point is,
23:44
Speaker 1: if people are wavering, and this is the law, the
23:47
Speaker 1: judge will say this to the jury, look him in
23:49
Speaker 1: the eyes of say if your mind is wavering, if
23:53
Speaker 1: you have uncertainty, then you must acquit. Why because it's
23:59
Speaker 1: a stay burden to prove this case beyond a reasonable doubt.
24:05
Speaker 1: If you want him to go to yell because he
24:07
Speaker 1: was in the wrong place, No, you have to believe
24:11
Speaker 1: that he shot these three people. And I want you
24:14
Speaker 1: to hear this sound. Take a listen to our cut fourteen.
24:18
Speaker 1: This is Nancy Champ with CBS. Rittenhouse then shot and
24:21
Speaker 1: killed another man, Anthony Hubert, after he says Hubert hit
24:24
Speaker 1: him in the head. He grabs my gun and I
24:26
Speaker 1: can feel it pulling away from me and this I
24:29
Speaker 1: can feel the strap starting to come off my body.
24:33
Speaker 1: And what do you do? Then? I fire one shot.
24:36
Speaker 1: At that point, Rittenhouse shot a third man, Gage Grosscroatez,
24:40
Speaker 1: who was standing over him with a gun in his hand.
24:42
Speaker 1: Why were you trying to get to the police, Because
24:44
Speaker 1: I didn't do anything wrong. I defended myself on cross examination,
24:48
Speaker 1: the prosecutor tried to pet Rittenhouse as an armed threat.
24:51
Speaker 1: Mister Rittenhouse, you're telling us that you felt like you
24:56
Speaker 1: were about to die, right, Yes, But when you point
25:00
Speaker 1: the gun at someone else, that's going to make them
25:02
Speaker 1: feel like they're about to die. Right, that's what you
25:06
Speaker 1: wanted him to feel. No, I also want you to
25:09
Speaker 1: hear our seventeen, This says Alexis Petrez. ABCG. May take
25:13
Speaker 1: a listen to this. Written House, also telling the jury
25:16
Speaker 1: that Rosenbum threatened him before the shooting. He screamed, if
25:19
Speaker 1: I catch any of you alone, I'm going to kill you.
25:23
Speaker 1: Through testimony, the defense painting a picture of a young
25:26
Speaker 1: man who had been cleaning graffiti and wanted to offer
25:29
Speaker 1: medical help to those injured during the protests that followed
25:32
Speaker 1: the police shooting of Jacob Blake. But in cross examination,
25:36
Speaker 1: the prosecutor pressing Rittenhouse on his decision to go to
25:39
Speaker 1: Kenosha in the first place and why he showed up
25:42
Speaker 1: within a R fifteen? Why do you need the gun
25:45
Speaker 1: when you go out there? I need the gun because
25:49
Speaker 1: if I had to protect myself because somebody attacked me,
25:52
Speaker 1: and playing this video in court attempting to dismantle Rittenhouse's
26:03
Speaker 1: argument that he was in Kenosha that night to offer
26:06
Speaker 1: medical help. You're not a certify the MT. You're not
26:09
Speaker 1: an EMT of any kind. You weren't on that night, correct, Yes,
26:13
Speaker 1: so you lied to him? Correct? I told him I was.
26:16
Speaker 1: I told him I was an EMT, but I wasn't.
26:19
Speaker 1: It's my understanding, Alexis ters Shuck that Rittenhouse had volunteered
26:23
Speaker 1: with EMGs before, and he had a medical pack with
26:27
Speaker 1: him when he went to Kenosha that he did not use.
26:30
Speaker 1: When he shot somebody, he didn't provide assistance. And in fact,
26:33
Speaker 1: somebody asked him to call nine one. They thought he
26:35
Speaker 1: was calling nine one one, but instead he called his
26:37
Speaker 1: friends and then went on to shoot and kill another
26:41
Speaker 1: person and shoot another. Pertion Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
27:01
Speaker 1: Let me ask you a question, Alexis es Schuck. Have
27:03
Speaker 1: you seen the videos? Yeah? Okay, I've got you on
27:06
Speaker 1: a cross right now, So try to limit your answers
27:08
Speaker 1: to yes. No, Alexis in the shooting of ro Sinbaum
27:13
Speaker 1: Joseph Rosenbaum, age thirty six, did Rosenbaum chase Rittenhouse across
27:18
Speaker 1: a parking lot? I saw them both go across the
27:21
Speaker 1: parking lot. Oh okay, so who was in front running? Right?
27:25
Speaker 1: What do you mean in front? Who was ahead? Who
27:29
Speaker 1: was behind who? When you say they're running across the
27:32
Speaker 1: parking lot, they could be jogging together for all I know.
27:34
Speaker 1: But that's not what the video depicts. Why can't you
27:38
Speaker 1: just be honest about what you saw in the video
27:40
Speaker 1: because Rosenbaum is behind him, because he's chasing him, it
27:43
Speaker 1: cannot be an exact second there. It's never an exact second.
27:47
Speaker 1: If a person shoots their husband because there's been twenty
27:49
Speaker 1: five years of abuse, you have to take that into consideration.
27:53
Speaker 1: So you have to take this entire situation into consideration.
27:57
Speaker 1: It cannot just be one second to be that this
28:00
Speaker 1: teenager illegally obtained a gun and came to a protest
28:04
Speaker 1: and was allegedly and says he was defending an autobody shop.
28:08
Speaker 1: He wasn't at the autobody shop anymore. Rosenbaum wasn't breaking
28:10
Speaker 1: into the autobody shop. Kyle Rittenhouse the social media talked
28:14
Speaker 1: about how he wanted to shoot shoplifters, and again I
28:17
Speaker 1: ask you if you can be honest and answer this.
28:22
Speaker 1: If you can't, I understand you've argued yourself into a corner,
28:26
Speaker 1: alexis terress Chuck, who is chasing who? In the parking lot?
28:31
Speaker 1: Rosenbaum is going after a person with a gun in
28:33
Speaker 1: the video? Do you know who that person is? Kyle Rittenhouse, Okay,
28:39
Speaker 1: it was illegally holding a gun, right? You know? That
28:45
Speaker 1: goes to the old question Spencer Courson. So a hooker
28:48
Speaker 1: goes in a bar and she gets raped? Can a
28:53
Speaker 1: hooker be raped? Ken eighteen vigilante? Who's got a gun?
28:58
Speaker 1: Fire and self defense? Are they mutually exclusive? Is it
29:03
Speaker 1: possible that they can both be true? Because I have
29:08
Speaker 1: prosecuted cases for hookers they got raped before and got
29:12
Speaker 1: a conviction. Because it doesn't matter who you are or
29:15
Speaker 1: where you came from. What matters is the time of
29:18
Speaker 1: the incident. Lady justice is blind, whether everybody wants to
29:22
Speaker 1: remember this or not. She doesn't care who you are.
29:26
Speaker 1: She doesn't care if you're black or white, or you're
29:28
Speaker 1: some snot teen. Where you're at where you shouldn't be,
29:33
Speaker 1: and you've got a gun you shouldn't have when you're
29:36
Speaker 1: getting chased across the park league, you know what Alexa's
29:38
Speaker 1: to rush? Chuck? Didn't I ask you? Off camera? If
29:44
Speaker 1: somebody chased you across the parking lot with your son
29:48
Speaker 1: and you had a gun and they lunged at you,
29:52
Speaker 1: would you shoot them? And what was your answer? Yes?
29:56
Speaker 1: Oh right, but that was just for you and your son,
29:59
Speaker 1: not for Kyle in house. Right, you have to take
30:02
Speaker 1: the whole thing into the picture. Why why would I
30:04
Speaker 1: have a gun? Why would somebody chasing me across the
30:06
Speaker 1: parking lot with my child? Why did I take? What
30:11
Speaker 1: is that spencer jumping in? It's it's it's spencer, Nancy.
30:14
Speaker 1: If I could be in with a quick analogy that
30:16
Speaker 1: I think. Well. So I have a friend who this
30:18
Speaker 1: weekend was renovating his kitchen. Right, he gets this refrigerator delivered.
30:22
Speaker 1: It doesn't fit, so he has to go to home
30:24
Speaker 1: depot to get to get a tool that he needs
30:26
Speaker 1: to get at the slide in. While he's at home depot,
30:29
Speaker 1: his son goes into the garage, climbs up on the workbench,
30:32
Speaker 1: gets into the toolbox, pulls out a hammer, goes into
30:34
Speaker 1: the kitchen and starts feeding the living daylights out of
30:37
Speaker 1: the refrigerator, all but loving it, all but ruining it.
30:40
Speaker 1: Dad comes home, sees the refrigerator, goes what's going on.
30:43
Speaker 1: The kid with a smile on his face goes, Daddy,
30:44
Speaker 1: I help fix fridge. That's the story of Kyle Rittenhouse.
30:48
Speaker 1: A kid who wanted to help, got his hands on
30:50
Speaker 1: something he shouldn't and being ingorant of his own ability
30:53
Speaker 1: and having an improperly framed expectation of how the real
30:56
Speaker 1: world works, went out to save lives but ultimately wound
31:00
Speaker 1: up doing more harm than good. How is the medic
31:02
Speaker 1: with hearing an assault rifle? Do our EMTs have assault
31:07
Speaker 1: rifles when they go out to save lives? No? But
31:10
Speaker 1: the EMT who got shot the third time had a
31:12
Speaker 1: gun because he saw what he thought was an active Okay,
31:17
Speaker 1: is what you're doing is you're holding it against Writtenhouse
31:21
Speaker 1: because he has a gun. Now do I support gun control?
31:25
Speaker 1: Actually yes I do. I am a gun violence victim.
31:29
Speaker 1: But in our country, you can have a gun, including
31:32
Speaker 1: that gun, and he was the fact that he was
31:36
Speaker 1: under eighteen, you well can't. You actually can't. He couldn't
31:40
Speaker 1: actually legally have that gun, which is why his friend
31:43
Speaker 1: bought it for him. As I was trying to say
31:45
Speaker 1: before I was so ridely interrupted. At his age, he
31:48
Speaker 1: should not have had the gun. That is illegal. But
31:53
Speaker 1: you can't treat him differently because he's in that location.
31:57
Speaker 1: What about all the other people that were there that
31:59
Speaker 1: night that should have been at home or should not
32:03
Speaker 1: have been creating mayhem? What about the people that were
32:06
Speaker 1: peacefully protesting. Are they in the wrong place at the
32:08
Speaker 1: wrong time. I mean, under your scenario, we should all
32:11
Speaker 1: stay at home under the bed. That's the only way you,
32:14
Speaker 1: alexis terrestio won't convict us. That's the reality of your reasoning.
32:19
Speaker 1: You got to take your reason and follow it through
32:21
Speaker 1: to a legal conclusion. And your conclusion is he's in
32:24
Speaker 1: the wrong place. He was carrying a gun, so he's guilty.
32:28
Speaker 1: That is not how the law works. I want you
32:31
Speaker 1: to take a listen to what we know about what
32:36
Speaker 1: was happening on the scene that night. Take a listen
32:40
Speaker 1: to Laura Schweitzer w k R n our Cut twelve.
32:44
Speaker 1: This is Rittenhouse on the stand. Listen Kyle Rittenhouse wreaking
32:49
Speaker 1: down on the stand as he began testifying in front
32:51
Speaker 1: of a courtroom in Wisconsin this morning. Rittenhouse is accused
32:56
Speaker 1: of fatally shooting two people and wounding another during a
32:59
Speaker 1: police brutality protesting Kenosha in August of twenty twenty, he
33:03
Speaker 1: told the courtroom he went to Kenosha to quote, provide
33:07
Speaker 1: first aid after looting and vandalism, broke out, bringing along
33:11
Speaker 1: his medical supplies and AAR style semi automatic rifle, But
33:16
Speaker 1: when asked about what happened during the protest, he broke
33:19
Speaker 1: down people. On the other hand, let's think about what
33:34
Speaker 1: Alexis arrest check is saying. I heard one comparison that
33:38
Speaker 1: the hunter goes into the forest with a high powered weapon,
33:43
Speaker 1: bear charges him, and he shoots him and says I
33:46
Speaker 1: had to You know, he charged me, So what did
33:49
Speaker 1: he think was going to happen when he went in there?
33:52
Speaker 1: To you, choice, Layton, how do you deal with that
33:55
Speaker 1: defense Alexis has a leg to stand on. To a
33:58
Speaker 1: normal lay person, that would make sense. But under the law,
34:04
Speaker 1: a person has a right to defend themselves and even
34:07
Speaker 1: to use deadly force if deadly force is being used
34:13
Speaker 1: against them. So even though he may have been in
34:16
Speaker 1: the wrong place, even though we all agree that he
34:19
Speaker 1: should have been at home and that he shouldn't have
34:21
Speaker 1: been out there if somebody was trying to kill him,
34:26
Speaker 1: he has the right to defend himself, say Nancy, I
34:31
Speaker 1: could interject for a second. This is coursing to you
34:33
Speaker 1: know ahead, you know one of the things. This is
34:35
Speaker 1: almost a Kodak moment for the jury to take a
34:38
Speaker 1: look at the instant this situation was happening. We can
34:44
Speaker 1: recreate very easily the testimony of Frank Andrew Hernandez that
34:50
Speaker 1: clearly bifurcates the behavior of written Health versus the behavior Rosenbaum,
34:58
Speaker 1: and we'll led up to it. But what really counts
35:01
Speaker 1: is in that three seconds to five seconds, what was
35:05
Speaker 1: taking place and the fear factor that was in Written
35:10
Speaker 1: House's mind, and that I think is going to be
35:14
Speaker 1: the tipping point for the jury. Nancy. I think part
35:18
Speaker 1: of the title of What's happening and what keeps happening
35:21
Speaker 1: in this case is there's a disconnect between the law,
35:25
Speaker 1: which is exactly what was said, what was going on
35:29
Speaker 1: in that very moment, right, and the psychological aspect that
35:34
Speaker 1: Electris was bringing up the whole context of what was
35:39
Speaker 1: he doing with the gun? What was happening there? Was
35:42
Speaker 1: he ready to be shooting somebody? But I think it
35:46
Speaker 1: really does come down to that very moment of was
35:51
Speaker 1: he really believing he was defending himself or was he
35:55
Speaker 1: just trigger happy and I think it just gets very convoluted. Okay,
36:00
Speaker 1: I wait a minute, Karen Stark, I mean when you
36:02
Speaker 1: say he's trigger happy or was he defending himself? Are
36:07
Speaker 1: both true? We know he was a gun officionado, we
36:11
Speaker 1: know that he did target practice, we know he wanted
36:13
Speaker 1: this gun. That does not preclude a self defense argument.
36:18
Speaker 1: And you know what, I took a lot of heat
36:21
Speaker 1: for not coming down on one side or the other.
36:25
Speaker 1: But I am not going to wore out Lady Justice
36:30
Speaker 1: and give in to one argument or the other if
36:33
Speaker 1: it's unclear, if it's unclear that as a burden of
36:37
Speaker 1: state has not carried. Look, I'm a prosecutor, tried and true,
36:42
Speaker 1: but if the state has not carried its burden, I
36:44
Speaker 1: would not sacrifice a true verdict in order to just
36:48
Speaker 1: come up with a decision. I hear Alexis Terreschuk, I
36:52
Speaker 1: hear what everybody is saying. I hear what Choice Laten
36:56
Speaker 1: is saying. And the reality is it's muddy water. It
37:01
Speaker 1: is not clear. And that is why, as much as
37:05
Speaker 1: I hate it, I predict we will have a hung jury.
37:11
Speaker 1: We will soon be on a verdict. Watch we wait,
37:16
Speaker 1: as just as some falls Nancy Grace crime Story, signing
37:19
Speaker 1: off good bye friend,