Latest / The Science Diplomat / S1E5: Bob McDonald on curiosity, climate, and communicating science

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S1E5: Bob McDonald on curiosity, climate, and communicating science · The Science Diplomat

0:08
SPEAKER_03: Science doesn't just shape what we
0:09
SPEAKER_03: know, it shapes what we do next.
0:11
SPEAKER_03: But before it can influence
0:13
SPEAKER_03: policy or diplomacy, it
0:15
SPEAKER_03: has to do something simpler and
0:17
SPEAKER_03: maybe even harder.
0:18
SPEAKER_03: It has to make sense to people.
0:21
SPEAKER_03: And, for decades, our guest
0:23
SPEAKER_03: has been one of the voices helping
0:24
SPEAKER_03: the public do exactly that.
0:26
SPEAKER_03: Welcome to The Science Diplomat
0:28
SPEAKER_03: Podcast.
0:29
SPEAKER_03: Our guest today is Bob McDonald,
0:31
SPEAKER_03: chief science correspondent for the
0:33
SPEAKER_03: CBC and host of Quirks
0:35
SPEAKER_03: and Quarks, reaching over
0:37
SPEAKER_03: 800,000 listeners.
0:38
SPEAKER_03: Bob, welcome, it's so great to have
0:40
SPEAKER_03: you with us.
0:41
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for the invitation
0:42
SPEAKER_01: to be here.
0:44
SPEAKER_03: Okay, lovely.
0:45
SPEAKER_03: So I want to start at the beginning.
0:46
SPEAKER_03: What really pulled you into science
0:48
SPEAKER_03: journalism in the first place
0:51
SPEAKER_03: and what still keeps you
0:52
SPEAKER_03: curious today?
0:53
SPEAKER_01: Well, I was drawn into
0:55
SPEAKER_01: science as a kid because
0:57
SPEAKER_01: I grew up in the space age.
0:59
SPEAKER_01: The whole space program has happened
1:01
SPEAKER_01: within my lifetime.
1:02
SPEAKER_01: I'm that old.
1:03
SPEAKER_01: I remember Sputnik, the
1:05
SPEAKER_01: very first satellite went up, and
1:07
SPEAKER_01: everybody was very excited and we
1:09
SPEAKER_01: all went running outside to see this
1:10
SPEAKER_01: little dot going across the sky.
1:12
SPEAKER_01: Everyone was terrified as well
1:14
SPEAKER_01: because the Russians had put it up
1:16
SPEAKER_01: and ooh, if they could do that,
1:18
SPEAKER_01: they could put a bomb up and drop
1:19
SPEAKER_01: anybody and ooh and then the whole
1:21
SPEAKER_01: space race happened.
1:22
SPEAKER_01: And I watched it.
1:23
SPEAKER_01: I watched the whole space race.
1:24
SPEAKER_01: And I knew the names of all the
1:26
SPEAKER_01: astronauts, those early astronauts,
1:28
SPEAKER_01: Alan Shepard, John Glenn, Neil
1:30
SPEAKER_01: Armstrong.
1:31
SPEAKER_01: I watched all the Moon landings,
1:33
SPEAKER_01: not just the first one, but I
1:34
SPEAKER_01: watched them.
1:35
SPEAKER_01: So I grew up
1:36
SPEAKER_01: with with the wonders of
1:38
SPEAKER_01: science and space exploration
1:40
SPEAKER_01: and it was just glorious.
1:42
SPEAKER_01: And I never, I never thought back
1:44
SPEAKER_01: then that it would take 50 years for
1:45
SPEAKER_01: us to get back to the Moon.
1:47
SPEAKER_01: But it was a very exciting time.
1:49
SPEAKER_01: So, it's inspired me and it
1:51
SPEAKER_01: still inspires me today.
1:54
SPEAKER_02: Listening to your work, you know,
1:56
SPEAKER_02: takes me back a bit.
1:57
SPEAKER_02: AP hired me to cover the environment
1:59
SPEAKER_02: beat in Washington 25 years ago.
2:00
SPEAKER_02: And by the way, I remember also
2:02
SPEAKER_02: watching the Moon landing as a kid.
2:04
SPEAKER_02: And I started covering science and
2:06
SPEAKER_02: climate and energy and everything
2:07
SPEAKER_02: else that's connected.
2:10
SPEAKER_02: And at the time, I never
2:11
SPEAKER_02: heard the term science diplomacy,
2:13
SPEAKER_02: right?
2:14
SPEAKER_02: But I was covering politics and
2:15
SPEAKER_02: science.
2:16
SPEAKER_02: And I see a lot of the
2:18
SPEAKER_02: same stories coming around again,
2:20
SPEAKER_02: actually.
2:20
SPEAKER_02: And I wonder, how do
2:21
SPEAKER_02: you think the science beat, for
2:23
SPEAKER_02: you, has changed in the last few
2:25
SPEAKER_02: decades.
2:27
SPEAKER_01: It's changed a lot because
2:29
SPEAKER_01: when I was young, science was magic.
2:31
SPEAKER_01: And I worked at the
2:33
SPEAKER_01: Ontario Science Center.
2:34
SPEAKER_01: That's really where I got my start
2:36
SPEAKER_01: in communicating science to the
2:38
SPEAKER_01: public.
2:38
SPEAKER_01: And I wore a white lab coat and we
2:40
SPEAKER_01: were wowing kids with standing their
2:42
SPEAKER_01: hair up on end with static
2:44
SPEAKER_01: electricity, burning through
2:46
SPEAKER_01: fire bricks with a giant laser,
2:48
SPEAKER_01: freezing flowers in liquid nitrogen.
2:49
SPEAKER_01: It was magic.
2:51
SPEAKER_01: And that's how
2:51
SPEAKER_01: science was thought of.
2:53
SPEAKER_01: But then a couple of things
2:54
SPEAKER_01: happened.
2:55
SPEAKER_01: One was that
2:57
SPEAKER_01: picture of the Earth in
2:59
SPEAKER_01: 1968 from Apollo 8,
3:01
SPEAKER_01: the very first mission to the Moon,
3:02
SPEAKER_01: the Earth rising above the lunar
3:04
SPEAKER_01: horizon.
3:04
SPEAKER_01: It was the first time that
3:06
SPEAKER_01: humans saw the whole planet as
3:08
SPEAKER_01: one.
3:09
SPEAKER_01: And that kind of kicked off
3:10
SPEAKER_01: the environmental movement.
3:11
SPEAKER_01: That and Rachel Carson's
3:13
SPEAKER_01: book, The Silent Spring.
3:15
SPEAKER_01: And the other thing that happened in
3:17
SPEAKER_01: 1973 was the first oil crisis,
3:19
SPEAKER_01: where we realized that oil
3:22
SPEAKER_01: is limited and we have
3:23
SPEAKER_01: to think about efficiency.
3:25
SPEAKER_01: We have to think about other ways of
3:26
SPEAKER_01: generating energy that
3:28
SPEAKER_01: don't involve oil.
3:30
SPEAKER_01: And there was a huge amount of
3:31
SPEAKER_01: research went into solar and wind
3:33
SPEAKER_01: and geothermal and all of that
3:34
SPEAKER_01: stuff.
3:35
SPEAKER_01: Then it kind of died off.
3:36
SPEAKER_01: Of course, two wars in the Middle
3:37
SPEAKER_01: East didn't hurt.
3:39
SPEAKER_01: But that changed.
3:40
SPEAKER_01: Then the environment became
3:42
SPEAKER_01: important when we realized what
3:44
SPEAKER_01: burning fossil fuels was doing.
3:46
SPEAKER_01: So that's when it started to become
3:47
SPEAKER_01: political, because
3:50
SPEAKER_01: the agenda to keep
3:51
SPEAKER_01: business as usual, because there's
3:53
SPEAKER_01: so much money being made through
3:55
SPEAKER_01: not only the fossil fuels industry,
3:57
SPEAKER_01: but the automotive industry that
3:58
SPEAKER_01: supports it and all the other
3:59
SPEAKER_01: industries that rely on that, they
4:01
SPEAKER_01: feel threatened by that.
4:02
SPEAKER_01: So there's been a pushback against
4:04
SPEAKER_01: science to deny climate
4:06
SPEAKER_01: change, to say, no, no, that's not
4:07
SPEAKER_01: real, the science isn't true.
4:09
SPEAKER_01: And we've been fighting that ever
4:10
SPEAKER_01: since.
4:11
SPEAKER_01: And in fact, I wrote
4:12
SPEAKER_01: a book just a couple of years ago
4:14
SPEAKER_01: called The Future is Now, solving
4:16
SPEAKER_01: the climate crisis with today's
4:18
SPEAKER_01: technologies.
4:19
SPEAKER_01: Because all that technology to
4:22
SPEAKER_01: capture the free energy of the sun
4:23
SPEAKER_01: and all that, that already exists.
4:25
SPEAKER_01: We know how to do it, but we're not
4:27
SPEAKER_01: - at least not doing it enough.
4:29
SPEAKER_01: So to me, that's when science became
4:31
SPEAKER_01: political, is when we started
4:32
SPEAKER_01: thinking about the environment and
4:34
SPEAKER_01: the impact, our impact on the
4:36
SPEAKER_01: Earth.
4:38
SPEAKER_02: You know, just to follow on that,
4:39
SPEAKER_02: first of all, I love your optimism
4:41
SPEAKER_02: and the fact that you focus on
4:43
SPEAKER_02: solutions that we have.
4:45
SPEAKER_02: We have the technology now.
4:46
SPEAKER_02: You're absolutely right.
4:47
SPEAKER_02: It's amazing.
4:48
SPEAKER_02: We do have the
4:48
SPEAKER_02: technology.
4:51
SPEAKER_02: Two things in the early 2000s
4:53
SPEAKER_02: when I came on the environment beat,
4:54
SPEAKER_02: I had two sort of epiphanies,
4:56
SPEAKER_02: I guess you could say.
4:57
SPEAKER_02: One was
4:59
SPEAKER_02: covering the proposed drilling in
5:00
SPEAKER_02: the Arctic refuge.
5:02
SPEAKER_02: The energy reporter who was
5:03
SPEAKER_02: mentoring me, he was a great guy,
5:05
SPEAKER_02: and he pointed out that it
5:07
SPEAKER_02: actually didn't really matter how
5:10
SPEAKER_02: many barrels of recoverable oil
5:11
SPEAKER_02: there were.
5:12
SPEAKER_02: And I said, What do you
5:13
SPEAKER_02: mean?
5:13
SPEAKER_02: Of course it matters.
5:14
SPEAKER_02: Facts matter.
5:14
SPEAKER_02: And he said, Do you
5:15
SPEAKER_02: think there's any level at which
5:17
SPEAKER_02: that it's so low that
5:19
SPEAKER_02: the administration will say, You're
5:21
SPEAKER_02: right, we don't need it.
5:22
SPEAKER_02: And there's
5:23
SPEAKER_02: any level at which it's so
5:25
SPEAKER_02: high that the environmental groups
5:26
SPEAKER_02: will say, Oh, you're right, that's a
5:28
SPEAKER_02: lot.
5:28
SPEAKER_02: We should allow drilling for
5:30
SPEAKER_02: that.
5:30
SPEAKER_02: And I realized there was this
5:33
SPEAKER_02: ideology involved.
5:34
SPEAKER_02: And the second thing was one time he
5:36
SPEAKER_02: had this stack of papers and an old
5:38
SPEAKER_02: Rolodex on his desk and
5:41
SPEAKER_02: he randomly pulled out a
5:42
SPEAKER_02: press release that was like 10 years
5:44
SPEAKER_02: old or something and said, You know,
5:45
SPEAKER_02: you could just change the date on
5:47
SPEAKER_02: this thing.
5:48
SPEAKER_02: And it's the same story.
5:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
5:52
SPEAKER_01: I, there's a wonderful saying,
5:55
SPEAKER_01: the Stone Age didn't end because
5:57
SPEAKER_01: we ran out of stone.
5:59
SPEAKER_01: It ended because a better technology
6:01
SPEAKER_01: came along.
6:02
SPEAKER_01: The Iron Age, then the Bronze Age.
6:04
SPEAKER_01: Now we're into Steel and Glass.
6:05
SPEAKER_01: So the technology evolved.
6:07
SPEAKER_01: And we've done that with other
6:08
SPEAKER_01: technologies.
6:09
SPEAKER_01: We've had them evolve.
6:10
SPEAKER_01: I mean, look at my phone.
6:12
SPEAKER_01: When I was a kid, the phone was on
6:13
SPEAKER_01: the wall and all it did was talk.
6:16
SPEAKER_01: Now it's in my pocket and I don't
6:17
SPEAKER_01: even know how many things this thing
6:18
SPEAKER_01: can do and talking is sort of the
6:20
SPEAKER_01: least that it does.
6:21
SPEAKER_01: This didn't evolve because we needed
6:22
SPEAKER_01: better telephones.
6:24
SPEAKER_01: It was a good technology that came
6:25
SPEAKER_01: along and everybody bought into it
6:27
SPEAKER_01: and it changed our lives.
6:28
SPEAKER_01: We haven't done that with energy.
6:30
SPEAKER_01: We haven't.
6:31
SPEAKER_01: There's new technology
6:32
SPEAKER_01: there, but we haven't adopted it
6:34
SPEAKER_01: because there's resistance - to keep
6:35
SPEAKER_01: business as usual.
6:37
SPEAKER_01: And there's this misinformation
6:39
SPEAKER_01: out there.
6:40
SPEAKER_01: You know, people say,
6:41
SPEAKER_01: well, electric cars are bad,
6:43
SPEAKER_01: you know, holy smokes.
6:46
SPEAKER_01: A combustion car produces its
6:48
SPEAKER_01: own weight in carbon every year,
6:50
SPEAKER_01: and we call that okay.
6:51
SPEAKER_01: I saw three different studies that
6:53
SPEAKER_01: showed that every year
6:56
SPEAKER_01: 7-8 million people die from
6:59
SPEAKER_01: the effects of fossil fuel burning,
7:00
SPEAKER_01: mostly through air pollution, 7-8
7:02
SPEAKER_01: million people a year worldwide.
7:05
SPEAKER_01: And we just let that go.
7:06
SPEAKER_01: We just let it go.
7:07
SPEAKER_01: That's a major Canadian city - it's
7:09
SPEAKER_01: more than that - every year.
7:10
SPEAKER_01: So, we got to have a perspective
7:12
SPEAKER_01: on these things.
7:13
SPEAKER_01: And I believe
7:15
SPEAKER_01: that with common sense, good
7:17
SPEAKER_01: science, and good communication,
7:19
SPEAKER_01: we can see the way to
7:22
SPEAKER_01: a sustainable future without
7:23
SPEAKER_01: breaking the economy, without
7:25
SPEAKER_01: believing all these things, oh no,
7:27
SPEAKER_01: we can't change because it'll break
7:28
SPEAKER_01: the economy, everybody will lose
7:29
SPEAKER_01: jobs, yeah, yeah, yeah.
7:30
SPEAKER_01: Those arguments don't hold up when
7:32
SPEAKER_01: you really look at it.
7:33
SPEAKER_01: I've already met several people
7:36
SPEAKER_01: out here in British Columbia who
7:37
SPEAKER_01: put solar panels on the roof of
7:39
SPEAKER_01: their house.
7:40
SPEAKER_01: They have a battery pack to store
7:41
SPEAKER_01: the solar energy.
7:42
SPEAKER_01: They drive an electric car.
7:44
SPEAKER_01: And they charge their car from their
7:45
SPEAKER_01: house.
7:46
SPEAKER_01: They drive for
7:47
SPEAKER_01: free.
7:48
SPEAKER_01: That's the future.
7:50
SPEAKER_01: That's the better technology.
7:51
SPEAKER_01: And once that word gets out, it
7:53
SPEAKER_01: starts to spread.
7:54
SPEAKER_01: So it's the evolution of
7:56
SPEAKER_01: our technology.
7:57
SPEAKER_01: We don't wait until it's a crisis
7:59
SPEAKER_01: and say, Oh my God, we ran out of
8:01
SPEAKER_01: oil, what are we gonna do now?
8:02
SPEAKER_01: It's work it in.
8:03
SPEAKER_01: You're seeing more and more electric
8:04
SPEAKER_01: cars on the road and electric
8:06
SPEAKER_01: vehicles and people are thinking
8:07
SPEAKER_01: more about efficiency.
8:09
SPEAKER_01: It's coming.
8:10
SPEAKER_01: And it just like it took a while for
8:11
SPEAKER_01: the phone to evolve, it didn't come
8:13
SPEAKER_01: overnight.
8:14
SPEAKER_01: It evolves.
8:14
SPEAKER_01: So that's how I believe it's going
8:16
SPEAKER_01: to happen.
8:16
SPEAKER_01: But we got to keep that
8:17
SPEAKER_01: momentum alive.
8:19
SPEAKER_01: Keep the forward momentum alive and
8:21
SPEAKER_01: resist the misinformation
8:23
SPEAKER_01: that's trying to hold us back and
8:24
SPEAKER_01: keep the old ways going as long as
8:26
SPEAKER_01: possible.
8:27
SPEAKER_02: On that note,
8:29
SPEAKER_02: you know, this acceleration in
8:31
SPEAKER_02: technology, how do you think that's
8:33
SPEAKER_02: changed or how has your role
8:34
SPEAKER_02: as a science journalist changed to
8:37
SPEAKER_02: keep up with that?
8:37
SPEAKER_01: Well, it's made our job a lot
8:39
SPEAKER_01: easier.
8:40
SPEAKER_01: The internet has given us access
8:42
SPEAKER_01: to not only information,
8:44
SPEAKER_01: but people, scientists,
8:46
SPEAKER_01: technologies like this Riverside
8:47
SPEAKER_01: that we're using right now, allows
8:49
SPEAKER_01: us to interview scientists anywhere
8:50
SPEAKER_01: in the world, in their home, in
8:52
SPEAKER_01: their office, wherever they happen
8:53
SPEAKER_01: to be.
8:54
SPEAKER_01: So that's really great.
8:55
SPEAKER_01: COVID did that for us.
8:56
SPEAKER_01: And it's also made us better
8:59
SPEAKER_01: at editing interviews,
9:01
SPEAKER_01: like recording and editing
9:02
SPEAKER_01: interviews.
9:02
SPEAKER_01: It's all digital now,
9:03
SPEAKER_01: it's really great, But at the same
9:05
SPEAKER_01: time, it's also made
9:08
SPEAKER_01: it a lot easier for pseudoscientists
9:10
SPEAKER_01: and conspiracy theorists
9:12
SPEAKER_01: to put out really good stuff.
9:14
SPEAKER_01: And they're very good at it.
9:15
SPEAKER_01: And with AI now creating
9:17
SPEAKER_01: images that are very convincing
9:19
SPEAKER_01: or videos that are convincing, it's
9:21
SPEAKER_01: hard to tell the difference between
9:23
SPEAKER_01: real science and pseudoscience.
9:25
SPEAKER_01: And my next book is about that.
9:26
SPEAKER_01: I'm going after the pseudoscientist,
9:29
SPEAKER_01: because it's confusing to the
9:30
SPEAKER_01: public and it's,
9:32
SPEAKER_01: it's hard.
9:32
SPEAKER_01: You know, I still, I
9:33
SPEAKER_01: still have people who, who say, did
9:35
SPEAKER_01: the Moon landings really happen?
9:36
SPEAKER_01: Are you sure that wasn't a hoax?
9:39
SPEAKER_01: I want to - get over
9:42
SPEAKER_01: it.
9:42
SPEAKER_01: And it's
9:44
SPEAKER_01: just a whole phenomenon.
9:45
SPEAKER_01: Or people who believe that the Earth
9:46
SPEAKER_01: is flat.
9:47
SPEAKER_01: Because they only believe
9:48
SPEAKER_01: what they see.
9:49
SPEAKER_01: Or opinions.
9:51
SPEAKER_01: We have people putting out podcasts
9:53
SPEAKER_01: who created an institute and
9:54
SPEAKER_01: made themself the president of
9:56
SPEAKER_01: it and put out opinions rather
9:58
SPEAKER_01: than good scientific data.
10:00
SPEAKER_01: So that's where our job comes into
10:01
SPEAKER_01: play, is to
10:03
SPEAKER_01: show the difference between good
10:05
SPEAKER_01: science and somebody's opinion.
10:07
SPEAKER_01: Good science relies on
10:09
SPEAKER_01: evidence, on data, on experiments,
10:11
SPEAKER_01: on peer review, and all of that.
10:12
SPEAKER_01: But people think, oh, I heard
10:13
SPEAKER_01: somebody say that the
10:16
SPEAKER_01: Earth is hollow and there's
10:18
SPEAKER_01: a civilization living under our
10:19
SPEAKER_01: feet.
10:20
SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
10:20
SPEAKER_01: So what evidence do you have of
10:22
SPEAKER_01: that?
10:22
SPEAKER_01: Well, so-and-so told me that.
10:24
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
10:24
SPEAKER_01: That doesn't count.
10:25
SPEAKER_01: But you can find a video on that.
10:27
SPEAKER_01: So that scares me.
10:29
SPEAKER_01: That's our challenge right now.
10:31
SPEAKER_00: So when people compare
10:33
SPEAKER_00: artificial intelligence to something
10:35
SPEAKER_00: as transformative as the
10:37
SPEAKER_00: Stone Age or the Industrial
10:38
SPEAKER_00: Revolution, I think it sounds very
10:40
SPEAKER_00: dramatic, just as you've rightly put
10:42
SPEAKER_00: it.
10:43
SPEAKER_00: So from your perspective,
10:44
SPEAKER_00: what actually makes this
10:46
SPEAKER_00: moment different?
10:47
SPEAKER_00: Like now we are dealing with
10:48
SPEAKER_00: artificial intelligence.
10:50
SPEAKER_00: Is this just another technological
10:52
SPEAKER_00: leap or are we genuinely entering
10:54
SPEAKER_00: into a new phase of human history?
10:57
SPEAKER_01: I think we're entering a new phase
10:59
SPEAKER_01: of human history.
11:00
SPEAKER_01: And what we have to
11:02
SPEAKER_01: our advantage this time is
11:04
SPEAKER_01: foresight, thanks to
11:06
SPEAKER_01: science.
11:07
SPEAKER_01: Science can predict what's
11:08
SPEAKER_01: happening.
11:09
SPEAKER_01: We can predict the rising
11:10
SPEAKER_01: climate.
11:11
SPEAKER_01: We can predict droughts.
11:12
SPEAKER_01: We can predict forest fires.
11:14
SPEAKER_01: We can predict food shortages,
11:16
SPEAKER_01: water shortages.
11:16
SPEAKER_01: We can see it
11:17
SPEAKER_01: coming.
11:19
SPEAKER_01: And it's my hope that we'll use
11:20
SPEAKER_01: that foresight to start
11:23
SPEAKER_01: making changes.
11:24
SPEAKER_01: We should have been making changes a
11:25
SPEAKER_01: long time ago.
11:26
SPEAKER_01: But make them now so that we're
11:27
SPEAKER_01: prepared.
11:28
SPEAKER_01: So that when the oil
11:31
SPEAKER_01: runs out and the climate goes up, we
11:32
SPEAKER_01: have the alternative technology
11:35
SPEAKER_01: already there taking
11:37
SPEAKER_01: over.
11:38
SPEAKER_01: So that's what I see
11:39
SPEAKER_01: as the difference.
11:41
SPEAKER_01: A lot of the, some of the
11:43
SPEAKER_01: changes in the past, not so much
11:45
SPEAKER_01: scientifically, but politically
11:47
SPEAKER_01: have been revolutions, where
11:49
SPEAKER_01: there's suddenly, there's a
11:50
SPEAKER_01: rebellion.
11:51
SPEAKER_01: This is wrong.
11:51
SPEAKER_01: We got to take over the government.
11:53
SPEAKER_01: And they're sudden.
11:55
SPEAKER_01: They're violent.
11:55
SPEAKER_01: People get hurt.
11:56
SPEAKER_01: And then there's usually chaos
11:58
SPEAKER_01: afterwards before things settle out.
12:00
SPEAKER_01: I believe in evolution,
12:02
SPEAKER_01: where you take something and you let
12:03
SPEAKER_01: it evolve into something better over
12:05
SPEAKER_01: time.
12:06
SPEAKER_01: So you don't wait until a crisis.
12:09
SPEAKER_01: You move ahead and just work
12:11
SPEAKER_01: into the better thing.
12:12
SPEAKER_01: So that's my
12:13
SPEAKER_01: approach and I believe in that.
12:14
SPEAKER_01: We know how to do it.
12:15
SPEAKER_01: We just need to get on with it.
12:17
SPEAKER_01: So that's the difference between
12:18
SPEAKER_01: this time and the last.
12:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so what real problems
12:23
SPEAKER_00: or gaps emerge when science
12:24
SPEAKER_00: becomes so highly politicized,
12:27
SPEAKER_00: like, you know, with the examples
12:28
SPEAKER_00: you've given, and what is
12:30
SPEAKER_00: actually at stake when the public
12:32
SPEAKER_00: loses trust in the scientific
12:34
SPEAKER_00: consensus through, like,
12:36
SPEAKER_00: misinformation?
12:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's really difficult.
12:40
SPEAKER_01: I say vote intelligently,
12:42
SPEAKER_01: vote people in who understand
12:44
SPEAKER_01: the science.
12:45
SPEAKER_01: They don't have to be
12:46
SPEAKER_01: scientists, but vote in
12:48
SPEAKER_01: people who have that foresight
12:50
SPEAKER_01: and not someone who's
12:52
SPEAKER_01: in bed with the oil companies
12:54
SPEAKER_01: or with activists
12:56
SPEAKER_01: or who believes that vaccines
12:58
SPEAKER_01: don't work, that they cause autism
13:00
SPEAKER_01: or things like that.
13:02
SPEAKER_01: We have politicians in certain parts
13:04
SPEAKER_01: of the world right now who don't
13:05
SPEAKER_01: believe in the science.
13:06
SPEAKER_01: They hate windmills, you know.
13:08
SPEAKER_01: Oh, windmils are horrible, they
13:10
SPEAKER_01: kill people or whatever.
13:12
SPEAKER_01: That's unfortunate.
13:13
SPEAKER_01: So we have to elect them out and
13:15
SPEAKER_01: elect responsible governments.
13:18
SPEAKER_01: And we, the people, that's what it's
13:20
SPEAKER_01: supposed to be.
13:21
SPEAKER_01: The politicians are
13:22
SPEAKER_01: supposed to represent us.
13:24
SPEAKER_01: So we get out and we vote for people
13:26
SPEAKER_01: who do believe
13:28
SPEAKER_01: in a sustainable future.
13:30
SPEAKER_01: That's a big deal.
13:32
SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Bob.
13:33
SPEAKER_00: So to shift the focus now,
13:35
SPEAKER_00: and let's look more at global
13:36
SPEAKER_00: perspectives, having, you know,
13:39
SPEAKER_00: the four of us joining from
13:40
SPEAKER_00: different parts of the world right
13:42
SPEAKER_00: now.
13:43
SPEAKER_00: So I come from Zambia
13:44
SPEAKER_00: and now working in science
13:46
SPEAKER_00: diplomacy, and I often notice
13:48
SPEAKER_00: global science stories framed
13:50
SPEAKER_00: through a very Western lens.
13:52
SPEAKER_00: Even when important work is
13:54
SPEAKER_00: happening elsewhere, it doesn't
13:55
SPEAKER_00: always get the same visibility.
13:58
SPEAKER_00: From your perspective, how
13:59
SPEAKER_00: can major science platforms
14:01
SPEAKER_00: do a better job of bringing
14:03
SPEAKER_00: Global South perspectives into
14:05
SPEAKER_00: the mainstream?
14:07
SPEAKER_01: I'm glad you mentioned that because
14:09
SPEAKER_01: Africa is making tremendous strides
14:12
SPEAKER_01: in solar energy.
14:13
SPEAKER_01: I was very surprised about
14:16
SPEAKER_01: 10 years ago when I went to
14:18
SPEAKER_01: Rwanda and realized that everyone
14:20
SPEAKER_01: was on cell phones because
14:23
SPEAKER_01: it's easier for them than stringing
14:25
SPEAKER_01: wires and having conventional.
14:26
SPEAKER_01: So they adopted
14:28
SPEAKER_01: this new technology.
14:31
SPEAKER_01: And there's a lot of solar energy
14:33
SPEAKER_01: that's happening, being developed
14:34
SPEAKER_01: there in many countries in Africa.
14:37
SPEAKER_01: And desalinization and
14:39
SPEAKER_01: all kinds of wonderful technology.
14:41
SPEAKER_01: So you can make that
14:43
SPEAKER_01: worldwide by showing us what
14:45
SPEAKER_01: you're doing.
14:46
SPEAKER_01: Again, I referenced that in my
14:48
SPEAKER_01: book.
14:49
SPEAKER_01: Also, India is doing all
14:50
SPEAKER_01: kinds of really amazing things with,
14:53
SPEAKER_01: they're putting solar panels on
14:55
SPEAKER_01: canals too.
14:57
SPEAKER_01: Instead of having a big square of
14:59
SPEAKER_01: solar, they go in
15:01
SPEAKER_01: length because the country is
15:02
SPEAKER_01: covered in canals.
15:04
SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of innovation
15:06
SPEAKER_01: happening.
15:07
SPEAKER_01: How do we get that way?
15:09
SPEAKER_01: Well, I do my best to try to stay
15:10
SPEAKER_01: global.
15:12
SPEAKER_01: Our program is global.
15:13
SPEAKER_01: We have scientists from all over the
15:14
SPEAKER_01: world.
15:15
SPEAKER_01: As far as we're concerned,
15:17
SPEAKER_01: science knows no boundaries, because
15:19
SPEAKER_01: it is a global issue.
15:20
SPEAKER_01: I mean, science deals with planet
15:22
SPEAKER_01: Earth.
15:24
SPEAKER_01: We only have one planet, we
15:25
SPEAKER_01: only have one atmosphere, we only
15:27
SPEAKER_01: one ocean, and one
15:29
SPEAKER_01: hydrosphere, the water, and one
15:31
SPEAKER_01: cryosphere, the ice.
15:34
SPEAKER_01: So it is,
15:36
SPEAKER_01: I think in Canada we do more
15:38
SPEAKER_01: global science than they do in
15:40
SPEAKER_01: the States.
15:42
SPEAKER_01: But speak up, speak up.
15:44
SPEAKER_01: Speak up.
15:45
SPEAKER_01: Speak up for your country.
15:46
SPEAKER_01: Make a noise,
15:48
SPEAKER_01: make a noise.
15:49
SPEAKER_01: Contact us .We're always interested
15:51
SPEAKER_01: in new stories.
15:54
SPEAKER_03: Just building on that,
15:55
SPEAKER_03: I mean, how do you decide
15:58
SPEAKER_03: which global stories will
16:00
SPEAKER_03: resonate the most and
16:01
SPEAKER_03: also try to attract a
16:03
SPEAKER_03: more international audience?
16:06
SPEAKER_01: Well, I don't make that decision.
16:08
SPEAKER_01: My producers make that decision and
16:09
SPEAKER_01: they're very smart and they are very
16:11
SPEAKER_01: dialed in to all of the
16:13
SPEAKER_01: journals, the university
16:15
SPEAKER_01: press releases, all of the science
16:17
SPEAKER_01: that's out there every week.
16:19
SPEAKER_01: So we're a weekly show and
16:21
SPEAKER_01: we want to bring you what happened
16:23
SPEAKER_01: this week in science or what's
16:25
SPEAKER_01: leading, and we always go for the
16:27
SPEAKER_01: lead author on that paper.
16:30
SPEAKER_01: I used to suggest stories, but every
16:32
SPEAKER_01: time I did, my producers would say,
16:33
SPEAKER_01: yeah, we already know about that.
16:34
SPEAKER_01: So I just stopped.
16:36
SPEAKER_01: My job is to
16:38
SPEAKER_01: learn what those stories are.
16:40
SPEAKER_01: So they gather the
16:42
SPEAKER_01: stories and they send the background
16:44
SPEAKER_01: information to me.
16:45
SPEAKER_01: So we have two criteria.
16:47
SPEAKER_01: One is a good story, either
16:49
SPEAKER_01: something new, something we
16:51
SPEAKER_01: haven't heard before, or something
16:53
SPEAKER_01: that goes, gee, I didn't know that,
16:54
SPEAKER_01: that's really interesting.
16:55
SPEAKER_01: And it could be anything.
16:58
SPEAKER_01: We'll take any subject, whether it's
17:00
SPEAKER_01: a black hole out at the edge of the
17:01
SPEAKER_01: universe or the creative
17:03
SPEAKER_01: sex life of some insect.
17:05
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter, we do it all.
17:08
SPEAKER_01: And the second criteria we have is a
17:10
SPEAKER_01: good storyteller.
17:11
SPEAKER_01: So, my producers will
17:14
SPEAKER_01: call the scientists, the lead
17:16
SPEAKER_01: author, before we do our
17:18
SPEAKER_01: interviews, and do a pre-interview
17:20
SPEAKER_01: with them to make sure that they can
17:22
SPEAKER_01: speak well, that they can tell their
17:24
SPEAKER_01: story well.
17:25
SPEAKER_01: And very often, we'll have stories
17:26
SPEAKER_01: that don't make it to the air
17:28
SPEAKER_01: because the scientists either
17:30
SPEAKER_01: can't get out of the technical
17:32
SPEAKER_01: jargon or they
17:34
SPEAKER_01: don't have any enthusiasm for it or,
17:36
SPEAKER_01: I don't know, maybe they just have
17:37
SPEAKER_01: trouble speaking or they're not used
17:39
SPEAKER_01: to speaking on the media.
17:41
SPEAKER_01: So then we'll go to the graduate
17:42
SPEAKER_01: student that actually did the work
17:44
SPEAKER_01: and they'll tell us.
17:45
SPEAKER_01: So we have those two criteria: good
17:46
SPEAKER_01: story, good storyteller.
17:48
SPEAKER_01: And there are also cases where
17:50
SPEAKER_01: we'll have a really enthusiastic
17:51
SPEAKER_01: science - the story's kind of
17:53
SPEAKER_01: mediocre, but they're so
17:54
SPEAKER_01: enthusiastic about it, we'll put it
17:55
SPEAKER_01: on.
17:56
SPEAKER_01: Because that makes it engaging.
17:59
SPEAKER_01: We're not handing out PhDs
18:01
SPEAKER_01: on our program.
18:02
SPEAKER_01: Our program is to
18:03
SPEAKER_01: inspire, to entertain, and inform.
18:06
SPEAKER_01: And then we let the audience pursue
18:07
SPEAKER_01: it further if they want, and we
18:09
SPEAKER_01: provide all the references.
18:10
SPEAKER_01: So that's our criteria.
18:13
SPEAKER_03: Do you ever really wonder
18:15
SPEAKER_03: that there might be stories
18:17
SPEAKER_03: that get left out?
18:18
SPEAKER_03: I mean, in the information age, we
18:20
SPEAKER_03: have so much going on around the
18:21
SPEAKER_03: world.
18:22
SPEAKER_01: We only do science.
18:24
SPEAKER_01: We don't do politics.
18:25
SPEAKER_01: In fact, I
18:27
SPEAKER_01: don't like interviewing a
18:28
SPEAKER_01: politician.
18:29
SPEAKER_01: I've interviewed very
18:30
SPEAKER_01: few of them and they don't give you
18:31
SPEAKER_01: answers.
18:32
SPEAKER_01: They give you spin and
18:33
SPEAKER_01: that's very frustrating.
18:35
SPEAKER_01: That's the joy of my job.
18:37
SPEAKER_01: I talk to scientists, they give me
18:38
SPEAKER_01: real answers when I ask questions
18:40
SPEAKER_01: and I love that.
18:41
SPEAKER_01: And it's always new.
18:43
SPEAKER_01: That's what makes it so entertaining
18:44
SPEAKER_01: for me.
18:45
SPEAKER_01: And yes, there's a lot
18:46
SPEAKER_01: we miss because there's whole lot
18:47
SPEAKER_00: out there.
18:50
SPEAKER_01: My producers get together ever
18:52
SPEAKER_01: Monday and they go through all the
18:54
SPEAKER_01: stuff and so who wants to chase who,
18:56
SPEAKER_01: and we're only a one hour show so we
18:58
SPEAKER_01: have to limit that.
19:00
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, there's a lot that gets
19:01
SPEAKER_01: away, but we try to choose
19:03
SPEAKER_01: what we find interesting and
19:05
SPEAKER_01: we do each show each week,
19:07
SPEAKER_01: so we don't plan ahead.
19:08
SPEAKER_01: So it's very, very
19:10
SPEAKER_01: spontaneous.
19:11
SPEAKER_01: And the show has been
19:12
SPEAKER_01: on the air for 50 years.
19:13
SPEAKER_01: This is our 50th year on the air.
19:16
SPEAKER_01: And what's remarkable about that,
19:17
SPEAKER_01: our format has not changed very much
19:20
SPEAKER_01: and our ratings have never gone
19:21
SPEAKER_01: down.
19:22
SPEAKER_01: Over 50 years, our ratings, if
19:24
SPEAKER_01: anything, they've gone up.
19:25
SPEAKER_01: And it shows that people are
19:27
SPEAKER_01: interested in just raw
19:28
SPEAKER_01: science, without politicizing
19:31
SPEAKER_01: it.
19:31
SPEAKER_01: This is it.
19:32
SPEAKER_01: Now we do every now and then, we'll
19:33
SPEAKER_01: take on a cause,
19:36
SPEAKER_01: and we'll do documentaries on one
19:37
SPEAKER_01: topic, but we try
19:39
SPEAKER_01: to stay away from the politics.
19:42
SPEAKER_01: There's enough.
19:43
SPEAKER_01: The news department does politics
19:44
SPEAKER_01: all the time, there's enough of
19:45
that.
19:46
SPEAKER_01: In fact, I had a phone call
19:48
SPEAKER_01: one time, this was
19:50
SPEAKER_01: a few years ago, one of my
19:52
SPEAKER_01: colleagues in Washington,
19:54
SPEAKER_01: and she said, Bob, tell me
19:56
SPEAKER_01: everything you know about Mars.
19:58
SPEAKER_01: I said, Mars?
20:00
SPEAKER_01: Why do you want to know about Mars?
20:01
SPEAKER_01: She says, all we do is talk about
20:03
SPEAKER_01: Trump.
20:03
SPEAKER_01: I'm so tired of Trump.
20:05
SPEAKER_01: It's Trump all the time, day and
20:06
SPEAKER_01: night it's all we talk about.
20:07
SPEAKER_01: I want to do something else.
20:08
SPEAKER_01: Tell me about Mars!
20:09
SPEAKER_01: I said okay.
20:11
SPEAKER_01: So we'll let the news do
20:14
SPEAKER_01: the politics.
20:15
SPEAKER_01: We stick with the science.
20:18
SPEAKER_02: I appreciate what you're saying, but
20:19
SPEAKER_02: just to push back a little bit,
20:22
SPEAKER_02: I wonder how you separate the
20:24
SPEAKER_02: politics from the science sometimes,
20:27
SPEAKER_02: because with what's going on in
20:28
SPEAKER_02: the United States or cuts in
20:30
SPEAKER_02: research funding,
20:33
SPEAKER_02: the Arctic drilling story I talked
20:35
SPEAKER_02: about, there was just pure science,
20:36
SPEAKER_02: but then there's politics.
20:38
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I've been covering
20:39
SPEAKER_02: politics for decades and it's
20:41
SPEAKER_02: only in retrospect that I see
20:44
SPEAKER_02: these stories are - I mean, I
20:45
SPEAKER_02: covered the Iran nuclear talks in
20:47
SPEAKER_02: Geneva, right?
20:48
SPEAKER_02: Perfect example of intersection
20:50
SPEAKER_02: of science and politics, which can't
20:52
SPEAKER_02: be separated.
20:52
SPEAKER_02: So I wonder, how do you do that?
20:55
SPEAKER_01: It is difficult.
20:56
SPEAKER_01: I was at one of the very
20:58
SPEAKER_01: first Earth summits, Rio '92,
21:01
SPEAKER_01: and all the politicians get together
21:03
SPEAKER_01: from around the world and say, yeah,
21:04
SPEAKER_01: yeah we got a problem with
21:06
SPEAKER_01: biodiversity and we've got a problem
21:07
SPEAKER_01: with climate, let's set some targets
21:09
SPEAKER_01: and meet those.
21:09
SPEAKER_01: And nobody meets the targets.
21:11
SPEAKER_01: And what are we on now?
21:12
SPEAKER_01: Twenty-six of these we've had and
21:14
SPEAKER_01: still we're not meeting targets.
21:15
SPEAKER_01: So I get frustrated by that.
21:18
SPEAKER_01: My approach, and this is my personal
21:20
SPEAKER_01: approach, I believe
21:22
SPEAKER_01: that if we have a scientifically
21:23
SPEAKER_01: literate society, we'll make good
21:25
SPEAKER_01: decisions.
21:27
SPEAKER_01: And politicians should be following
21:29
SPEAKER_01: the people.
21:30
SPEAKER_01: And if we start saying,
21:32
SPEAKER_01: hey, we would like to see
21:34
SPEAKER_01: more charging stations for our
21:36
SPEAKER_01: electric cars, let's put in
21:37
SPEAKER_01: infrastructure.
21:38
SPEAKER_01: Instead of building more pipelines,
21:40
SPEAKER_01: let's us put in charging stations,
21:42
SPEAKER_01: things like that, and demand
21:44
SPEAKER_01: that.
21:45
SPEAKER_01: And the politicians should
21:47
SPEAKER_01: follow suit.
21:49
SPEAKER_01: But we need to have a literate
21:50
SPEAKER_01: society.
21:52
SPEAKER_01: And as I say, make that distinction
21:54
SPEAKER_01: between the misinformation and the
21:55
SPEAKER_01: true science.
21:57
SPEAKER_01: And if we have an educated society,
21:58
SPEAKER_01: that'll work.
21:59
SPEAKER_01: And we have cases where that's
22:01
SPEAKER_01: happened before.
22:02
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you look back to the space
22:04
SPEAKER_01: age.
22:04
SPEAKER_01: They were teaching how
22:06
SPEAKER_01: to go to the Moon in school.
22:08
SPEAKER_01: We learned all about orbital
22:10
SPEAKER_01: rendezvous and action-reaction
22:12
SPEAKER_01: rockets and what the
22:14
SPEAKER_01: Moon is like and all that.
22:15
SPEAKER_01: They were teaching it.
22:15
SPEAKER_01: They put
22:16
SPEAKER_01: science at the top of the curriculum
22:18
SPEAKER_01: during the space age because
22:20
SPEAKER_01: America realized, North America
22:21
SPEAKER_01: realized that the Soviet
22:23
SPEAKER_01: Union was ahead of us in technology.
22:26
SPEAKER_01: So the only way we're going to do
22:27
SPEAKER_01: that is to have a
22:28
SPEAKER_01: literate society.
22:30
SPEAKER_01: And all the people that ran that
22:31
SPEAKER_01: Moon mission, they were all in
22:33
SPEAKER_01: their 20s and 30s.
22:35
SPEAKER_01: It was young people that took us to
22:36
SPEAKER_01: the Moon.
22:37
SPEAKER_01: So we've got to keep the young
22:38
SPEAKER_01: people inspired, keep the people
22:40
SPEAKER_01: interested in science.
22:41
SPEAKER_01: They don't have to become
22:42
SPEAKER_01: scientists, but be interested in
22:44
SPEAKER_01: science and understand the
22:45
SPEAKER_01: scientific principles, so they can
22:47
SPEAKER_01: tell the difference.
22:48
SPEAKER_01: What that politician is saying is
22:49
SPEAKER_01: untrue, and let the public make that
22:51
SPEAKER_01: decision.
22:52
SPEAKER_01: But we've got to keep them
22:53
SPEAKER_01: educated.
22:54
SPEAKER_01: We've got to get them educated.
22:57
SPEAKER_02: When did you first hear the term science
22:58
SPEAKER_02: diplomacy?
22:59
SPEAKER_01: I don't even remember.
23:02
SPEAKER_01: I remember when the term sustainable
23:04
SPEAKER_01: development came up, that was a big
23:05
SPEAKER_01: thing that politicians were throwing
23:07
SPEAKER_01: around, which was license to
23:09
SPEAKER_01: keep business as usual, really.
23:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I can't really recall the
23:14
SPEAKER_01: first time I heard science
23:16
SPEAKER_01: diplomacy.
23:17
SPEAKER_02: What do you think of it?
23:20
SPEAKER_02: And when you cover
23:22
SPEAKER_02: science, would you cover science
23:23
SPEAKER_02: diplomacy differently than covering
23:25
SPEAKER_02: science?
23:28
SPEAKER_01: Well, like I say, I've tried to
23:29
SPEAKER_01: avoid that.
23:30
SPEAKER_01: There's so much science out there
23:31
SPEAKER_01: and there's so much to say, and so
23:33
SPEAKER_01: few people are doing it.
23:35
SPEAKER_01: There's very few people that do what
23:36
SPEAKER_01: I do and just stick with the
23:38
SPEAKER_01: science, that I feel like I'm
23:40
SPEAKER_01: kind of holding up a tent
23:42
SPEAKER_01: pole here to try to keep
23:44
SPEAKER_01: the science alive.
23:46
SPEAKER_01: Everybody else can deal with the
23:47
SPEAKER_01: diplomacy.
23:49
SPEAKER_01: There are so many political
23:50
SPEAKER_01: reporters and I prefer to
23:52
SPEAKER_01: stick with the science.
23:54
SPEAKER_01: Let it speak for itself.
23:56
SPEAKER_01: Let it speak for itself.
23:57
SPEAKER_01: You can cover the diplomats.
23:59
SPEAKER_03: Listening to your work, it feels
24:01
SPEAKER_03: like you've spent your career doing
24:03
SPEAKER_03: more than just reporting science,
24:04
SPEAKER_03: though.
24:04
SPEAKER_03: So you've been building
24:06
SPEAKER_03: trust around evidence and
24:08
SPEAKER_03: connecting global discoveries
24:11
SPEAKER_03: to the public, almost
24:12
SPEAKER_03: like a bridge, right?
24:14
SPEAKER_03: And I know that you mentioned before
24:15
SPEAKER_03: that politicians might not really
24:17
SPEAKER_03: know what they're talking about, but
24:19
SPEAKER_03: would you say that by
24:21
SPEAKER_03: bringing science and evidence
24:23
SPEAKER_03: to the forefront and informing the
24:25
SPEAKER_03: public, you, to
24:27
SPEAKER_03: some extent, are
24:29
SPEAKER_03: a science diplomat?
24:30
SPEAKER_03: Does that
24:30
SPEAKER_03: framing kind of resonate with you
24:32
SPEAKER_03: perhaps?
24:34
SPEAKER_01: I see myself as a translator
24:36
SPEAKER_01: of science.
24:38
SPEAKER_01: I'm a translator.
24:39
SPEAKER_01: I can understand scientific
24:41
SPEAKER_01: language, and I want to
24:43
SPEAKER_01: translate that to the public and
24:45
SPEAKER_01: be a bridge between the public and
24:47
SPEAKER_01: the science.
24:48
SPEAKER_01: That's what I
24:49
SPEAKER_01: feel my job is.
24:50
SPEAKER_01: And also, because I've been doing it
24:52
SPEAKER_01: so long, I
24:55
SPEAKER_01: started my science
24:57
SPEAKER_01: communication in
24:59
SPEAKER_01: 1973, so
25:00
SPEAKER_01: long before you were born.
25:02
SPEAKER_01: And
25:06
SPEAKER_01: it's, I want to just
25:08
SPEAKER_01: say that it's,
25:11
SPEAKER_01: um, how do I say this?
25:13
SPEAKER_01: Science is, yeah,
25:15
SPEAKER_01: I'm a translator, between the
25:17
SPEAKER_01: scientists and the public, to say,
25:19
SPEAKER_01: hey, this is interesting, let's get
25:20
SPEAKER_01: interested in it.
25:22
SPEAKER_01: And I also try to provide
25:24
SPEAKER_01: perspective, because I've
25:26
SPEAKER_01: interviewed o many scientists just
25:27
SPEAKER_01: on Quirks and Quarks.
25:28
SPEAKER_01: I've been doing it for 33 years now.
25:30
SPEAKER_01: We did a little calculation.
25:32
SPEAKER_01: I've interviewed more than 7,000
25:33
SPEAKER_01: scientists just on this show, and I
25:35
SPEAKER_01: had a career before that.
25:37
SPEAKER_01: And I've seen patterns.
25:38
SPEAKER_01: I've seen connections.
25:40
SPEAKER_01: That's what science does, it sees
25:41
SPEAKER_01: patterns.
25:43
SPEAKER_01: And I give a lot, I do a lot of
25:44
SPEAKER_01: public speaking, and I
25:46
SPEAKER_01: like to give big picture stuff.
25:49
SPEAKER_01: I do a whole thing on
25:50
SPEAKER_01: perspectives on a planet,
25:52
SPEAKER_01: perspectives on the Earth, and
25:54
SPEAKER_01: how the Earth compares to all the
25:55
SPEAKER_01: other planets that we know of, not
25:56
SPEAKER_01: just in our solar system, but the
25:58
SPEAKER_01: other planets that we've found.
26:00
SPEAKER_01: And all those other planets are
26:01
SPEAKER_01: really interesting.
26:02
SPEAKER_01: And I spent a
26:03
SPEAKER_01: good part of my career following the
26:04
SPEAKER_01: space program out to the planets,
26:06
SPEAKER_01: but they'll all kill you.
26:08
SPEAKER_01: They'll all you.
26:09
SPEAKER_01: This is the only planet that won't
26:11
SPEAKER_01: kill you.
26:11
SPEAKER_01: You can go outside naked
26:12
SPEAKER_01: and you're okay.
26:13
SPEAKER_01: No other planet that we know of does
26:15
SPEAKER_01: that.
26:15
SPEAKER_01: Of the 6,000 planets
26:17
SPEAKER_01: that we know of, they'll all kill
26:18
SPEAKER_01: you.
26:18
SPEAKER_01: Well, there's a nice
26:19
SPEAKER_01: perspective on where we
26:21
SPEAKER_01: live.
26:22
SPEAKER_01: We live in the Garden of
26:23
SPEAKER_01: Eden.
26:24
SPEAKER_01: And here we are peeing
26:26
SPEAKER_01: in it.
26:27
SPEAKER_01: Come on,
26:28
SPEAKER_01: let's take care of it.
26:30
SPEAKER_01: Let's take care of it.
26:31
SPEAKER_01: So that's the
26:32
SPEAKER_01: kind of perspective that I try to
26:33
SPEAKER_01: bring to
26:35
SPEAKER_01: the public that we live in this
26:37
SPEAKER_01: amazing place, but
26:39
SPEAKER_01: it's fragile and it's small.
26:40
SPEAKER_01: But it's also hardy.
26:42
SPEAKER_01: It's been through change before.
26:44
SPEAKER_01: When the dinosaurs were here, it was
26:46
SPEAKER_01: a lot warmer than it is now.
26:49
SPEAKER_01: We talk about climate change, but
26:50
SPEAKER_01: it's been warm, it's been cold, it
26:52
SPEAKER_01: has gone through all kinds of stuff.
26:53
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't care about us.
26:55
SPEAKER_01: It's not about - I laugh when I hear
26:56
SPEAKER_01: people say, we have to save the
26:57
SPEAKER_01: planet.
26:58
SPEAKER_01: Planet's fine, planet's
26:59
SPEAKER_01: fine.
27:00
SPEAKER_01: It's the top predator
27:02
SPEAKER_01: at the moment that has the problem,
27:03
SPEAKER_01: and that's us.
27:04
SPEAKER_01: So it's our own survival.
27:06
SPEAKER_01: And that's the message that I want
27:07
SPEAKER_01: to get out is, it's sort of
27:09
SPEAKER_01: perspectives on science and
27:11
SPEAKER_01: our place in the world.
27:12
SPEAKER_01: And like I say, science provides a
27:14
SPEAKER_01: future look.
27:16
SPEAKER_01: It can point out the problems of the
27:17
SPEAKER_01: past.
27:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, we know all that.
27:20
SPEAKER_01: But let's look ahead.
27:21
SPEAKER_01: And that excites me.
27:22
SPEAKER_01: And that gives me optimism.
27:24
SPEAKER_01: And it's that optimism that I want
27:25
SPEAKER_01: to give to young people, to say,
27:27
SPEAKER_01: hey, don't be afraid of the future.
27:28
SPEAKER_01: Let's be innovative.
27:30
SPEAKER_01: Let's think about this and let's
27:31
SPEAKER_01: really move ahead.
27:32
SPEAKER_01: Well, a lot of them are.
27:34
SPEAKER_00: Amazing, amazing Bob.
27:36
SPEAKER_00: So you mentioned that you don't
27:38
SPEAKER_00: really identify with science
27:40
SPEAKER_00: diplomacy, but more of the
27:41
SPEAKER_00: translator, and I think that
27:43
SPEAKER_00: resonates with a lot of people, even
27:46
SPEAKER_00: in this room.
27:47
SPEAKER_00: I know John also relates
27:49
SPEAKER_00: with that framing, and some
27:51
SPEAKER_00: of the times I also feel the same
27:53
SPEAKER_00: way.
27:53
SPEAKER_00: Because the term itself,
27:54
SPEAKER_00: science diplomacy, is actually
27:56
SPEAKER_00: surprisingly new.
27:57
SPEAKER_00: It gained traction in the early
28:00
SPEAKER_00: 2000s and got its formal
28:01
SPEAKER_00: definition from the Royal Society
28:03
SPEAKER_00: and the AAAS around
28:05
SPEAKER_00: 2010.
28:07
SPEAKER_00: So I think, doesn't that make you
28:09
SPEAKER_00: wonder, if people like you
28:11
SPEAKER_00: or John or anyone else listening
28:14
SPEAKER_00: who's kind of sitting at this
28:15
SPEAKER_00: intersection of science translation,
28:18
SPEAKER_00: as you mentioned,
28:20
SPEAKER_00: across borders and audiences, you've
28:21
SPEAKER_00: actually
28:24
SPEAKER_00: been practicing science diplomacy
28:26
SPEAKER_00: all along, long before it even
28:27
SPEAKER_00: had a name?
28:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you could be right.
28:31
SPEAKER_01: If that's the case, well, then I'm
28:32
SPEAKER_01: happy that I've had some kind of
28:34
SPEAKER_01: effect.
28:35
SPEAKER_01: But you know, yes, we
28:38
SPEAKER_01: do need that connection with the
28:39
SPEAKER_01: politicians because they've got
28:41
SPEAKER_01: their fingers on the purse strings.
28:43
SPEAKER_01: They're handling the money about
28:44
SPEAKER_01: what our countries do.
28:46
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, it worries me that we
28:48
SPEAKER_01: spend so much money in
28:50
SPEAKER_01: ways that are wasteful that we
28:52
SPEAKER_01: don't need to.
28:53
SPEAKER_01: You know, the U.S.
28:55
SPEAKER_01: is spending a billion dollars a day
28:56
SPEAKER_01: right now in Iran.
28:57
SPEAKER_01: Why?
28:59
SPEAKER_01: And people talk about why are we
29:00
SPEAKER_01: spending money going to space when
29:02
SPEAKER_01: we could be taking care of the
29:04
SPEAKER_01: Earth?
29:06
SPEAKER_01: Well, in Canada, I don't
29:08
SPEAKER_01: know about other countries, but in
29:09
SPEAKER_01: Canada, our space program,
29:11
SPEAKER_01: when you divide it by the population
29:13
SPEAKER_01: of Canada, the annual
29:15
SPEAKER_01: budget is $20 per
29:17
SPEAKER_01: person per year.
29:19
SPEAKER_01: 20 bucks.
29:20
SPEAKER_01: That's what it costs us to go to
29:22
SPEAKER_01: space.
29:22
SPEAKER_01: And what do we get out of
29:23
SPEAKER_01: that?
29:24
SPEAKER_01: We get role models like our
29:25
SPEAKER_01: Canadian Jeremy Hansen that just
29:27
SPEAKER_01: went around the Moon.
29:28
SPEAKER_01: We get our highest technology
29:30
SPEAKER_01: with satellites and Earth
29:31
SPEAKER_01: monitoring, and we get all this
29:33
SPEAKER_01: stuff for 20 bucks.
29:35
SPEAKER_01: Halloween costs
29:36
SPEAKER_01: more than the space program.
29:38
SPEAKER_01: We spend more on candy and costumes
29:41
SPEAKER_01: at Halloween time than we do on our
29:42
SPEAKER_01: space program, so there's lots
29:44
SPEAKER_01: of places.
29:45
SPEAKER_01: What's it cost to go to
29:46
SPEAKER_01: a Taylor Swift concert?
29:48
SPEAKER_01: What's the cost to go to an NHL
29:49
SPEAKER_01: hockey game?
29:50
SPEAKER_01: What's it cost to go, you know
29:52
SPEAKER_01: - we spend money on crazy things
29:54
SPEAKER_01: for entertainment, and
29:56
SPEAKER_01: then we say, oh, no, no, we can't
29:58
SPEAKER_01: afford to go space.
29:59
SPEAKER_01: We can't afford to take care of the
30:00
SPEAKER_01: environment.
30:01
SPEAKER_01: We can't afford to do
30:02
SPEAKER_01: all this.
30:02
SPEAKER_01: Yes, we can.
30:04
SPEAKER_01: Yes, we can afford these things.
30:05
SPEAKER_01: Let's just shift our priorities to
30:07
SPEAKER_01: what really matters and look at
30:09
SPEAKER_01: where we're wasting it.
30:11
SPEAKER_03: From a communication standpoint,
30:13
SPEAKER_03: I was wondering, how do you
30:15
SPEAKER_03: talk about future risks in
30:18
SPEAKER_03: a way that can be informative
30:19
SPEAKER_03: without, I guess, being
30:21
SPEAKER_03: misinterpreted by the public, but
30:24
SPEAKER_03: also isn't too overwhelming?
30:26
SPEAKER_03: And I know that the way we present
30:27
SPEAKER_03: evidence today can very,
30:30
SPEAKER_03: very much be based on
30:31
SPEAKER_03: interpretation.
30:32
SPEAKER_03: So how do go about
30:32
SPEAKER_03: that?
30:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's been a problem with
30:36
SPEAKER_01: the environmental movement, is
30:38
SPEAKER_01: that everything became
30:40
SPEAKER_01: superlative, and it gets
30:42
SPEAKER_01: so bad that you want to just go
30:44
SPEAKER_01: stick your head in the sand and say,
30:46
SPEAKER_01: we're all going to die.
30:48
SPEAKER_01: We're all going to die.
30:49
SPEAKER_01: Who wants to hear that anymore?
30:50
SPEAKER_01: And it becomes kind of
30:52
SPEAKER_01: self-defeating.
30:53
SPEAKER_01: Whereas if you point to solutions,
30:56
SPEAKER_01: that makes sense.
30:58
SPEAKER_01: Like I pointed to the one where
30:59
SPEAKER_01: people are charging their cars from
31:01
SPEAKER_01: their house.
31:02
SPEAKER_01: That's a sensible
31:03
SPEAKER_01: solution.
31:04
SPEAKER_01: And that's how good information
31:06
SPEAKER_01: spreads.
31:06
SPEAKER_01: Because if one person
31:07
SPEAKER_01: in a neighborhood does that and
31:09
SPEAKER_01: their neighbors hear about it and
31:11
SPEAKER_01: they go, wow, I'm paying
31:13
SPEAKER_01: $150 to fill up my
31:15
SPEAKER_01: pickup truck and you're driving for
31:16
SPEAKER_01: free?
31:17
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to do that.
31:19
SPEAKER_01: And then it spreads, you get this
31:20
SPEAKER_01: neighborhood effect.
31:21
SPEAKER_01: And that how it comes
31:23
SPEAKER_01: along.
31:23
SPEAKER_01: So I like to
31:25
SPEAKER_01: talk about realistic
31:27
SPEAKER_01: solutions.
31:29
SPEAKER_01: Maybe talk about, oh no, we can't
31:30
SPEAKER_01: get ourselves off oil.
31:32
SPEAKER_01: Well, we don't have to.
31:33
SPEAKER_01: There are other ways to get energy
31:35
SPEAKER_01: out of oil.
31:36
SPEAKER_01: And there's a company here in Canada
31:39
SPEAKER_01: that has a technology that takes
31:40
SPEAKER_01: oil that's in the ground.
31:42
SPEAKER_01: It leaves the oil in the ground,
31:44
SPEAKER_01: but it takes hydrogen from the
31:46
SPEAKER_01: oil.
31:46
SPEAKER_01: Because we call it a
31:47
SPEAKER_01: hydrocarbon, right?
31:48
SPEAKER_01: It's the hydrogen that's coming off
31:50
SPEAKER_01: when you burn it.
31:51
SPEAKER_01: And they're getting hydrogen out of
31:52
SPEAKER_01: the ground, leaving the carbon in
31:54
SPEAKER_01: the ground.
31:54
SPEAKER_01: Great, hydrogen's a great fuel.
31:56
SPEAKER_01: Could we move to a hydrogen economy?
31:58
SPEAKER_01: Maybe, or at least partially
32:00
SPEAKER_01: hydrogen.
32:01
SPEAKER_01: So we're still using
32:02
SPEAKER_01: fossil fuels, but they're
32:04
SPEAKER_01: using them in a different way.
32:06
SPEAKER_01: So it's that kind of thing.
32:08
SPEAKER_01: Let's rethink what we're doing
32:10
SPEAKER_01: and just come up with a better way
32:12
SPEAKER_01: of doing it.
32:13
SPEAKER_01: And keep that message
32:14
SPEAKER_01: out there.
32:14
SPEAKER_01: It's not a threat.
32:16
SPEAKER_01: It's not, if you don't do this, it's
32:17
SPEAKER_01: all your fault.
32:18
SPEAKER_01: If you don't do this
32:19
SPEAKER_01: you're going to die.
32:19
SPEAKER_01: You're going to
32:20
SPEAKER_01: kill the planet.
32:21
SPEAKER_01: No, that's guilt.
32:23
SPEAKER_01: I like to think of it as optimistic.
32:25
SPEAKER_01: Hey, you could save yourself some
32:26
SPEAKER_01: money.
32:27
SPEAKER_01: I saw a wonderful commercial,
32:28
SPEAKER_01: this is a long time ago.
32:29
SPEAKER_01: There were two fellows mowing their
32:31
SPEAKER_01: lawns.
32:32
SPEAKER_01: And one of them had
32:33
SPEAKER_01: a gas mower and the other one had an
32:35
SPEAKER_01: electric motor, battery-operated
32:36
SPEAKER_01: electric motor.
32:38
SPEAKER_01: And the one with the gas mower
32:39
SPEAKER_01: looked over at the other guy and
32:40
SPEAKER_01: said, Gee, I didn't know you were
32:42
SPEAKER_01: an eco-nut.
32:43
SPEAKER_01: And, the guy said, I'm not, it's
32:45
SPEAKER_01: cheaper.
32:48
SPEAKER_01: Okay, I'll get one of
32:49
SPEAKER_01: those.
32:52
SPEAKER_01: So, there's the kind of thing that
32:54
SPEAKER_01: you need.
32:55
SPEAKER_01: It not only makes sense,
32:56
SPEAKER_01: it'll make you money, and it'll save
32:58
SPEAKER_01: you money to go green
33:00
SPEAKER_01: and take care of things, or it'll
33:01
SPEAKER_01: provide better food on your
33:03
SPEAKER_01: table and save water.
33:05
SPEAKER_01: These are all sensible solutions.
33:08
SPEAKER_01: There's sense.
33:08
SPEAKER_01: So keep the common
33:09
SPEAKER_01: sense.
33:11
SPEAKER_01: Keep common sense, make common sense
33:12
SPEAKER_01: prevail.
33:14
SPEAKER_02: Well, to that point though, how do
33:16
SPEAKER_02: you combat ideology as
33:18
SPEAKER_02: a reporter?
33:19
SPEAKER_01: I let the science speak for itself.
33:21
SPEAKER_01: If an ideology comes up, you say,
33:23
SPEAKER_01: well, what's your evidence?
33:24
SPEAKER_01: And very often they don't have good
33:26
SPEAKER_01: evidence.
33:27
SPEAKER_01: Where we can provide
33:28
SPEAKER_01: scientific evidence,
33:29
SPEAKER_01: there are libraries of science
33:32
SPEAKER_01: that can support what the
33:34
SPEAKER_01: science believes.
33:35
SPEAKER_01: So just push them on it,
33:37
SPEAKER_01: and they very seldom - that's the
33:38
SPEAKER_01: same thing with conspiracy
33:39
SPEAKER_01: theorists.
33:39
SPEAKER_01: The Earth is flat.
33:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I know it looks flat, but
33:43
SPEAKER_01: what's you evidence?
33:45
SPEAKER_01: Well, it's what it looks like.
33:46
SPEAKER_01: Okay, fine.
33:48
SPEAKER_01: But we have a lot of scientific
33:49
SPEAKER_01: evidence to show that the world is a
33:51
SPEAKER_01: globe and not just photographically.
33:53
SPEAKER_01: So let the science be
33:56
SPEAKER_01: strong.
33:57
SPEAKER_01: It is strong.
33:58
SPEAKER_01: It's got more than 2,000 years of
34:00
SPEAKER_01: history of building on itself,
34:01
SPEAKER_01: and it's self-correcting, and it is
34:03
SPEAKER_01: still evolving, it's still growing.
34:05
SPEAKER_01: It admits that it doesn't have
34:06
SPEAKER_01: anything right, or it doesn t always
34:08
SPEAKER_01: have things exactly right, but it is
34:10
SPEAKER_01: self- correcting over time.
34:13
SPEAKER_01: Where somebody who just believes
34:14
SPEAKER_01: something, they're not advancing.
34:16
SPEAKER_01: They just believe it.
34:18
SPEAKER_01: So an ideology comes along, prove
34:19
SPEAKER_01: it.
34:20
SPEAKER_01: Prove it.
34:22
SPEAKER_01: And let me give you the other side
34:24
SPEAKER_01: of this argument, scientifically.
34:26
SPEAKER_01: I think that could work.
34:28
SPEAKER_02: You know, I think a lot of it comes
34:29
SPEAKER_02: down to communication, and you're
34:31
SPEAKER_02: a master of communicating science.
34:35
SPEAKER_02: But I think that
34:36
SPEAKER_02: as a reporter, one
34:37
SPEAKER_02: of the skills I had to learn was
34:39
SPEAKER_02: this juggling act between precision
34:42
SPEAKER_02: and abstraction.
34:43
SPEAKER_02: How much do you put in, how much do
34:44
SPEAKER_02: lead out, and of course it has to be
34:46
SPEAKER_02: right.
34:46
SPEAKER_02: But you have
34:48
SPEAKER_02: to abstract to a point where you
34:50
SPEAKER_02: don't have to be a PhD to understand
34:52
SPEAKER_02: it.
34:54
SPEAKER_02: Right.
34:54
SPEAKER_02: And you're a master at doing that.
34:56
SPEAKER_02: I guess in the age of misinformation
34:58
SPEAKER_02: and deep fakes and all
35:00
SPEAKER_02: of that, maybe we just have to work
35:02
SPEAKER_02: harder at it, but how are you
35:05
SPEAKER_02: actively maybe changing up
35:07
SPEAKER_02: your tactics to
35:09
SPEAKER_02: encourage more trust in
35:12
SPEAKER_02: journalism and in science?
35:15
SPEAKER_02: And have you had to change
35:17
SPEAKER_02: your tactics in any way?
35:19
SPEAKER_01: Actually, no.
35:19
SPEAKER_01: And a lot of the tactics I learned
35:21
SPEAKER_01: came from my science center
35:23
SPEAKER_01: experience and working with kids.
35:25
SPEAKER_01: And I found that
35:27
SPEAKER_01: kids can understand just about
35:29
SPEAKER_01: anything, but it
35:31
SPEAKER_01: really helps if you start with
35:32
SPEAKER_01: something familiar and
35:35
SPEAKER_01: see science in everyday life and
35:36
SPEAKER_01: then go to the abstract, from
35:38
SPEAKER_01: the familiar to the abstract.
35:40
SPEAKER_01: And I did this during this latest
35:41
SPEAKER_01: Moon mission, when they
35:44
SPEAKER_01: were coming back into the
35:46
SPEAKER_01: atmosphere and they had to hit it at
35:48
SPEAKER_01: just the right angle.
35:49
SPEAKER_01: And they asked me to come on the
35:51
SPEAKER_01: broadcast that night and talk
35:52
SPEAKER_01: about it, and I wanted to talk about
35:54
SPEAKER_01: the heat shield and my concerns
35:55
SPEAKER_01: about that.
35:56
SPEAKER_01: So to do that, I showed
35:58
SPEAKER_01: a Tupperware cup
36:01
SPEAKER_01: that's shaped kind of conical.
36:02
SPEAKER_01: I said, this is what the capsule
36:03
SPEAKER_01: looks like.
36:04
SPEAKER_01: So it's shaped like this, it's blunt
36:06
SPEAKER_01: on one end, it's kind of conical,
36:07
SPEAKER_01: they're inside facing up
36:09
SPEAKER_01: and they're coming in backwards
36:11
SPEAKER_01: and they don't come straight into
36:12
SPEAKER_01: the atmosphere.
36:12
SPEAKER_01: They're skimming
36:13
SPEAKER_01: along the top like this.
36:14
SPEAKER_01: And this is the part that's going to
36:15
SPEAKER_01: get hot.
36:16
SPEAKER_01: And they're looking out the
36:16
SPEAKER_01: windows at the back and they going
36:17
SPEAKER_01: to see a flame out this way.
36:19
SPEAKER_01: And I explained how they're coming
36:21
SPEAKER_01: in.
36:22
SPEAKER_01: And I got several letters
36:24
SPEAKER_01: later saying your explanation
36:26
SPEAKER_01: of how they are coming in was the
36:28
SPEAKER_01: best that anyone's ever done,
36:29
SPEAKER_01: including the people at NASA.
36:31
SPEAKER_01: Because I took a familiar Tupperware
36:33
SPEAKER_01: cup and I used it as a spaceship.
36:35
SPEAKER_01: And I really believe in that.
36:37
SPEAKER_01: And when I do appear on television,
36:39
SPEAKER_01: they always say, have you got a
36:40
SPEAKER_01: prop?
36:41
SPEAKER_01: Have you got something that
36:42
SPEAKER_01: can illustrate it for us?
36:43
SPEAKER_01: So I always like to have something
36:44
SPEAKER_01: in my hand when I'm doing television
36:45
SPEAKER_01: work.
36:46
SPEAKER_01: A familiar object to
36:48
SPEAKER_01: introduce you to this topic.
36:50
SPEAKER_01: And it works.
36:51
SPEAKER_01: It works for me, so I've always done
36:52
SPEAKER_01: that.
36:53
SPEAKER_01: I can make a
36:55
SPEAKER_01: black hole in a plastic torpedo
36:57
SPEAKER_01: bottle.
36:58
SPEAKER_01: I wrote a couple of kids' books on
37:00
SPEAKER_01: kitchen science, stuff you
37:02
SPEAKER_01: can find in your kitchen that shows
37:03
SPEAKER_01: scientific principles.
37:04
SPEAKER_01: And I used to do teacher workshops
37:06
SPEAKER_01: on that, on how to use
37:08
SPEAKER_01: everyday objects.
37:08
SPEAKER_01: So I'm a big fan
37:09
SPEAKER_01: of that.
37:11
SPEAKER_01: See science around you,
37:13
SPEAKER_01: and then go out to the abstract.
37:15
SPEAKER_00: I love that analogy,
37:17
SPEAKER_00: Bob.
37:17
SPEAKER_00: I remember during my time in
37:19
SPEAKER_00: medical school, we had a
37:21
SPEAKER_00: term where we said, see one,
37:24
SPEAKER_00: do one, and teach one.
37:25
SPEAKER_00: And that was just like the whole
37:27
SPEAKER_00: journey of like, you know, when
37:28
SPEAKER_00: you're studying human biology and
37:30
SPEAKER_00: medicine.
37:30
SPEAKER_00: So you see, and
37:32
SPEAKER_00: then you do it, and then you have to
37:34
SPEAKER_00: teach it.
37:34
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
37:34
SPEAKER_00: But now, let's look at a different
37:37
SPEAKER_00: perspective of explaining this.
37:39
SPEAKER_00: When you interview like top
37:40
SPEAKER_00: scientists and policymakers,
37:42
SPEAKER_00: do you find that they are getting
37:44
SPEAKER_00: better at explaining the stakes to
37:46
SPEAKER_00: the public or are they becoming more
37:48
SPEAKER_00: guarded because of today's
37:50
SPEAKER_00: polarized political climate?
37:53
SPEAKER_01: We did go through a phase here
37:55
SPEAKER_01: in Canada where we had a
37:57
SPEAKER_01: government that was stifling
37:58
SPEAKER_01: scientists.
38:00
SPEAKER_01: Government scientists were not
38:01
SPEAKER_01: allowed to speak to the media,
38:02
SPEAKER_01: especially about climate change.
38:04
SPEAKER_01: But that government has changed out.
38:05
SPEAKER_01: And we did have trouble then.
38:07
SPEAKER_01: I do, when I'm talking to a
38:08
SPEAKER_01: scientist and they start getting
38:11
SPEAKER_01: really technical and difficult,
38:13
SPEAKER_01: I use analogies because
38:15
SPEAKER_01: I'm very visually thinking.
38:17
SPEAKER_01: And I try to think, just like
38:19
SPEAKER_01: using props on television, I try
38:21
SPEAKER_01: to think of something familiar.
38:23
SPEAKER_01: So if they say something like,
38:25
SPEAKER_01: oh, there's a, there's
38:27
SPEAKER_01: a toroidal vortex around Jupiter
38:29
SPEAKER_01: caused by the Moon
38:31
SPEAKER_01: - a toroidal vortex.
38:33
SPEAKER_01: I say, is that like a donut, a
38:35
SPEAKER_01: donut shape?
38:36
SPEAKER_01: They go, yeah, yeah,
38:36
SPEAKER_01: it's like a donut, sort of shaped
38:38
SPEAKER_01: like a donut.
38:38
SPEAKER_01: It's this big thing.
38:40
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so I know that a toroidal
38:41
SPEAKER_01: vortex is a donut or a
38:43
SPEAKER_01: smoke ring.
38:44
SPEAKER_01: And, and, or I'll say,
38:46
SPEAKER_01: if I'm doing an interview, and
38:48
SPEAKER_01: they get deep into something, a
38:50
SPEAKER_01: signature that I have, that's
38:51
SPEAKER_01: developed, it just came to me
38:53
SPEAKER_01: naturally, is I'll say, okay,
38:55
SPEAKER_01: let me see if I've got this right.
38:57
SPEAKER_01: And then I'll rephrase what they
38:59
SPEAKER_01: just said in everyday
39:00
SPEAKER_01: language, usually in one,
39:02
SPEAKER_01: maybe two sentences at the most, and
39:05
SPEAKER_01: I'll put an analogy in
39:06
SPEAKER_01: there just to clarify it for
39:08
SPEAKER_01: the audience.
39:10
SPEAKER_01: And I actually had a scientist,
39:12
SPEAKER_01: a Canadian scientist when I was
39:13
SPEAKER_01: visiting one of our universities,
39:15
SPEAKER_01: he came up to me, he'd been on the
39:16
SPEAKER_01: show a couple of times, and he said,
39:18
SPEAKER_01: you know, in our lab,
39:21
SPEAKER_01: if we're on your show, we
39:23
SPEAKER_01: try to get through an interview
39:25
SPEAKER_01: without you saying,
39:26
SPEAKER_01: let me see if I got this right.
39:28
SPEAKER_01: Because if you say that, that means
39:30
SPEAKER_01: we failed.
39:31
SPEAKER_01: We didn't communicate well.
39:33
SPEAKER_01: I said, I didn't realize I set a
39:35
SPEAKER_01: bar.
39:35
SPEAKER_01: He said, oh yeah, because
39:37
SPEAKER_01: you clarify it.
39:38
SPEAKER_01: You make it understandable.
39:40
SPEAKER_01: We get caught up in the jargon and
39:41
SPEAKER_01: all of that.
39:42
SPEAKER_01: So again, making it human,
39:45
SPEAKER_01: making it real, try to
39:47
SPEAKER_01: make it real.
39:47
SPEAKER_01: Not just the data
39:48
SPEAKER_01: itself, but how does it fit
39:50
SPEAKER_01: into our lives?
39:51
SPEAKER_01: How can I better understand this
39:53
SPEAKER_01: in a context?
39:54
SPEAKER_01: So that's really big for me.
39:57
SPEAKER_02: You know, just following on that,
39:59
SPEAKER_02: it's obvious your wonder and awe
40:01
SPEAKER_02: at nature and
40:03
SPEAKER_02: the curiosity that you have that
40:05
SPEAKER_02: is really fundamental to
40:07
SPEAKER_02: your reporting, and
40:09
SPEAKER_02: probably to all good science
40:11
SPEAKER_02: reporting, and all science.
40:13
SPEAKER_02: I'm just wondering
40:16
SPEAKER_02: has it been a challenge at all to
40:18
SPEAKER_02: keep that alive?
40:19
SPEAKER_02: Or has it come naturally?
40:22
SPEAKER_02: And what is it that most excites you
40:24
SPEAKER_02: now?
40:24
SPEAKER_02: Is it space?
40:26
SPEAKER_02: Is it the deep
40:28
SPEAKER_02: ocean?
40:28
SPEAKER_02: Or do you have any
40:30
SPEAKER_02: sort of pet interests that you're
40:32
SPEAKER_02: really into?
40:34
SPEAKER_01: Space has always been my number
40:36
SPEAKER_01: one topic, because that's what I
40:37
SPEAKER_01: grew up in.
40:38
SPEAKER_01: I made it my mission
40:39
SPEAKER_01: during the 1970s
40:42
SPEAKER_01: to go to California during
40:44
SPEAKER_01: the Voyager mission out to Jupiter,
40:46
SPEAKER_01: Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune.
40:47
SPEAKER_01: And I was there when we were seeing
40:49
SPEAKER_01: pictures coming in from these giant
40:51
SPEAKER_01: planets for the very first time.
40:53
SPEAKER_01: And it was exciting to be on this
40:54
SPEAKER_01: journey of discovery.
40:56
SPEAKER_01: Voyager was pure.
40:57
SPEAKER_01: Let's see what's out there.
40:59
SPEAKER_01: We didn't know.
40:59
SPEAKER_01: Let's go find out
41:00
SPEAKER_01: what's there.
41:00
SPEAKER_01: And Voyager was
41:01
SPEAKER_01: discovering moons that we didn't
41:03
SPEAKER_01: even know existed.
41:04
SPEAKER_01: And it was just like every
41:07
SPEAKER_01: press conference was like Christmas
41:08
SPEAKER_01: morning.
41:09
SPEAKER_01: They were showing us new
41:10
SPEAKER_01: pictures.
41:10
SPEAKER_01: Hey, here's this Moon.
41:11
SPEAKER_01: It's really weird.
41:12
SPEAKER_01: It's got
41:12
SPEAKER_01: volcanoes on it.
41:13
SPEAKER_01: Or it's all covered in ice.
41:15
SPEAKER_01: Or it has crazy features
41:16
SPEAKER_01: we never knew existed.
41:18
SPEAKER_01: And so I find that really
41:20
SPEAKER_01: exciting.
41:20
SPEAKER_01: And we're still doing it
41:21
SPEAKER_01: now with the Webb Telescope looking
41:23
SPEAKER_01: out to the edge of the universe and
41:25
SPEAKER_01: early galaxies.
41:26
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I've always been
41:28
SPEAKER_01: interested in space but
41:29
SPEAKER_01: since then, you know, I've
41:32
SPEAKER_01: spread out into other
41:34
SPEAKER_01: subjects and yeah, the deep ocean.
41:36
SPEAKER_01: Planet Earth.
41:37
SPEAKER_01: And I travel a lot, I travel
41:39
SPEAKER_01: a lot.
41:40
SPEAKER_01: In my late 20s,
41:42
SPEAKER_01: I went all the way around the world
41:44
SPEAKER_01: by myself, best thing I
41:46
SPEAKER_01: ever did.
41:46
SPEAKER_01: I just circled the globe.
41:48
SPEAKER_01: And I discovered that not
41:50
SPEAKER_01: only is the Earth amazing to
41:52
SPEAKER_01: see geographically and
41:55
SPEAKER_01: all that, but that people are
41:56
SPEAKER_01: generally good wherever you go.
41:58
SPEAKER_01: People are good.
41:59
SPEAKER_01: Nothing bad ever happened to me.
42:00
SPEAKER_01: People took me into their homes.
42:01
SPEAKER_01: I was hitchhiking and just going on
42:03
SPEAKER_01: my own.
42:03
SPEAKER_01: I had no plans.
42:04
SPEAKER_01: I just made it up as I went.
42:06
SPEAKER_01: And it restored my faith in
42:07
SPEAKER_01: humanity.
42:08
SPEAKER_01: And everybody wants to be just like
42:10
SPEAKER_01: us.
42:10
SPEAKER_01: They want to get on with their
42:11
SPEAKER_01: lives.
42:11
SPEAKER_01: They want to have families.
42:12
SPEAKER_01: They want to have a job and stay
42:14
SPEAKER_01: away from the politics.
42:16
SPEAKER_01: And what we see on the news
42:19
SPEAKER_01: is a very small minority
42:20
SPEAKER_01: of people who are fighting with each
42:22
SPEAKER_01: other and arguing with each other.
42:24
SPEAKER_01: Most people just want to get on
42:25
SPEAKER_01: their lives.
42:27
SPEAKER_01: Science to me is curiosity.
42:31
SPEAKER_01: It's how does the world work?
42:33
SPEAKER_01: How does it work?
42:35
SPEAKER_01: And it's always new, and there's
42:36
SPEAKER_01: still so much we don't know.
42:39
SPEAKER_01: What we don't know still
42:41
SPEAKER_01: exceeds what we do know.
42:43
SPEAKER_01: We think we've figured out a lot.
42:46
SPEAKER_01: But we still don't know what 95%
42:49
SPEAKER_01: of the universe is made of.
42:50
SPEAKER_01: This dark energy, dark matter,
42:52
SPEAKER_01: we don't what that stuff is.
42:54
SPEAKER_01: It's out there.
42:54
SPEAKER_01: We know it's there.
42:56
SPEAKER_01: We haven't got a clue what it is.
42:57
SPEAKER_01: Ninety-five percent of the universe
42:58
SPEAKER_01: is made of that.
43:00
SPEAKER_01: What we see is only 5% of what's
43:02
SPEAKER_01: really there.
43:02
SPEAKER_01: That's kind of
43:03
SPEAKER_01: humbling.
43:03
SPEAKER_01: I was talking to an
43:04
SPEAKER_01: astrophysicist who studies the Big
43:06
SPEAKER_01: Bang.
43:07
SPEAKER_01: And he was actually from South
43:08
SPEAKER_01: Africa.
43:09
SPEAKER_01: And he was home visiting his
43:11
SPEAKER_01: parents.
43:12
SPEAKER_01: And his mother asked him, so what
43:14
SPEAKER_01: are you working on?
43:15
SPEAKER_01: He said, well, I'm working on the
43:16
SPEAKER_01: Big Bang.
43:22
SPEAKER_01: And she said, so, what went bang?
43:23
SPEAKER_01: And he said, I don't know.
43:24
SPEAKER_01: That's a good question.
43:25
SPEAKER_01: I don t know.
43:26
SPEAKER_01: We're trying to figure that out.
43:27
SPEAKER_01: So
43:27
SPEAKER_01: what went bang that created
43:28
SPEAKER_01: everything we know?
43:29
SPEAKER_01: We don't know.
43:30
SPEAKER_01: Was there something before that?
43:32
SPEAKER_01: We don't now.
43:33
SPEAKER_01: So it still amazes
43:35
SPEAKER_01: me, and that's what science is
43:36
SPEAKER_01: doing, it's just asking really
43:38
SPEAKER_01: fundamental questions, you know,
43:40
SPEAKER_01: from why is the grass green to the
43:42
SPEAKER_01: sky blue?
43:43
SPEAKER_01: What's the universe made of?
43:44
SPEAKER_01: How does it work?
43:45
SPEAKER_01: What are the patterns?
43:45
SPEAKER_01: What are connections
43:46
SPEAKER_01: between this, that, and everything
43:47
SPEAKER_01: else?
43:48
SPEAKER_01: I find that endlessly
43:49
SPEAKER_01: entertaining.
43:51
SPEAKER_01: And every week scientists from
43:52
SPEAKER_01: around the world tell me what
43:54
SPEAKER_01: they've discovered.
43:55
SPEAKER_01: And I go, wow, that's amazing.
43:57
SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't matter.
43:58
SPEAKER_01: Doesn't matter if it's some fine
44:00
SPEAKER_01: little detail or a big picture.
44:01
SPEAKER_01: It's all amazing.
44:03
SPEAKER_01: And it's part of our - I feel like a
44:04
SPEAKER_01: surfer.
44:06
SPEAKER_01: I'm on the cutting edge of our
44:07
SPEAKER_01: knowledge, you know, as we pierce
44:09
SPEAKER_01: ignorance and I'm riding right there
44:11
SPEAKER_01: on that edge as everybody learns.
44:12
SPEAKER_01: And it's a privilege to be here, to
44:14
SPEAKER_01: do what I do, and seeing all these
44:16
SPEAKER_01: different subjects.
44:17
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, the enthusiasm for me
44:18
SPEAKER_01: doesn't diminish at all.
44:20
SPEAKER_02: That's great.
44:21
SPEAKER_03: I have to ask: How does it
44:23
SPEAKER_03: feel knowing that now there's
44:25
SPEAKER_03: an
44:28
SPEAKER_03: Asteroid 332324 Bob Mcdonald orbiting
44:29
SPEAKER_03: between Mars and Jupiter with your
44:31
SPEAKER_03: name on it?
44:32
SPEAKER_01: Well, the first thing I have to say,
44:33
SPEAKER_01: and what people always ask me, no,
44:35
SPEAKER_01: it will not hit the Earth, okay?
44:38
SPEAKER_01: It's not going to wipe out humanity.
44:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that was a total surprise.
44:42
SPEAKER_01: I had no idea that was coming.
44:45
SPEAKER_01: I just got a message from a
44:47
SPEAKER_01: local astronomer here in Victoria,
44:49
SPEAKER_01: David Balam, who does deep
44:51
SPEAKER_01: sky astronomy, but
44:53
SPEAKER_01: asteroids are always passing through
44:55
SPEAKER_01: his frame.
44:56
SPEAKER_01: They're a nuisance to him, but
44:58
SPEAKER_01: he tracks them.
44:59
SPEAKER_01: And if he sees
45:01
SPEAKER_01: one that hasn't been seen before, he
45:03
SPEAKER_01: gets to name it.
45:04
SPEAKER_01: And unlike comets, he can't name it
45:06
SPEAKER_01: after himself.
45:07
SPEAKER_01: Asteroids, you have to name after
45:08
SPEAKER_01: other people.
45:09
SPEAKER_01: And he's discovered dozens
45:11
SPEAKER_01: of them.
45:12
SPEAKER_01: So he likes my work.
45:14
SPEAKER_01: And so he just sent me a message and
45:16
SPEAKER_01: he said, okay, this asteroid is
45:18
SPEAKER_01: now officially named after you.
45:20
SPEAKER_01: And when I found that out, I
45:21
SPEAKER_01: thought, wow, what
45:23
SPEAKER_01: an honor to
45:25
SPEAKER_01: be part of a long tradition
45:27
SPEAKER_01: of naming astronomical objects
45:30
SPEAKER_01: after people.
45:31
SPEAKER_01: So we have craters on the Moon named
45:34
SPEAKER_01: Copernicus, and all
45:36
SPEAKER_01: the great scientists.
45:37
SPEAKER_01: We have the Galilean moons of
45:39
SPEAKER_01: Jupiter, and I'm now part of
45:41
SPEAKER_01: that club.
45:41
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
45:42
SPEAKER_01: I'm deeply, deeply honored
45:44
SPEAKER_01: by that.
45:45
SPEAKER_01: All I have to do now is
45:46
SPEAKER_01: get there.
45:47
SPEAKER_03: Does it ever take you back to
45:50
SPEAKER_03: that kid that was watching the Moon
45:52
SPEAKER_03: landings?
45:53
SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, I never would have thought
45:55
SPEAKER_01: that, well, as a kid, I
45:57
SPEAKER_01: never thought I would end up there
45:59
SPEAKER_01: anyway, but no,
46:00
SPEAKER_01: it's amazing.
46:01
SPEAKER_01: My mother gave me a book, hang on.
46:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'vec got it right here, don't
46:05
SPEAKER_01: go away.
46:05
SPEAKER_01: Hang on.
46:07
SPEAKER_01: Let me show you something.
46:11
SPEAKER_01: This is my only childhood book.
46:14
SPEAKER_01: When I was about seven years old,
46:16
SPEAKER_01: my mother gave me
46:18
SPEAKER_01: this book called
46:21
SPEAKER_01: The Planets.
46:22
SPEAKER_01: It's Golden Library of Knowledge.
46:23
SPEAKER_01: It's very thin, but it's
46:25
SPEAKER_01: an art book.
46:27
SPEAKER_01: And when this book was published,
46:29
SPEAKER_01: we hadn't been to the planets.
46:30
SPEAKER_01: The space age was just beginning.
46:32
SPEAKER_01: This was published in the late
46:33
SPEAKER_01: 1950s.
46:34
SPEAKER_01: And it goes through all kinds of
46:35
SPEAKER_01: things.
46:35
SPEAKER_01: But the one picture that
46:37
SPEAKER_01: really caught my imagination
46:39
SPEAKER_01: - this is how I learned about the
46:40
SPEAKER_01: solar system - it's just
46:43
SPEAKER_01: filled with art.
46:44
SPEAKER_01: The one picture, let's see if I can
46:45
SPEAKER_01: find it here, very quickly, there,
46:47
SPEAKER_01: this one.
46:47
SPEAKER_01: This is a drawing
46:49
SPEAKER_01: of Jupiter, and the caption
46:51
SPEAKER_01: reads, seen from Amalthea,
46:53
SPEAKER_01: its closest moon.
46:55
SPEAKER_01: Jupiter would fill one-fourth of
46:57
SPEAKER_01: your sky.
46:58
SPEAKER_01: One-fourth of your sky.
46:59
SPEAKER_01: And I thought about that.
47:00
SPEAKER_01: I thought, there's this planet,
47:02
SPEAKER_01: this giant planet that would fill
47:05
SPEAKER_01: a fourth of your sky.
47:06
SPEAKER_01: And I did a little experiment, even
47:07
SPEAKER_01: though I was a little kid.
47:09
SPEAKER_01: I went out and I looked at our Moon
47:10
SPEAKER_01: to see how big - have you ever
47:11
SPEAKER_01: measured the Moon?
47:13
SPEAKER_01: See how big it is?
47:13
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I know it
47:14
SPEAKER_01: looks huge sometimes.
47:15
SPEAKER_01: If you hold your arm straight out,
47:17
SPEAKER_01: the Moon is the size of an aspirin.
47:20
SPEAKER_01: It's small, it's only this
47:22
SPEAKER_01: big.
47:22
SPEAKER_01: And I thought, wow,
47:23
SPEAKER_01: what would it be like to see a
47:26
SPEAKER_01: planet that large?
47:28
SPEAKER_01: In 1979, we went to Jupiter
47:30
SPEAKER_01: with Voyager and
47:32
SPEAKER_01: I got to see Voyager close up and I
47:33
SPEAKER_01: got to see that little moon,
47:35
SPEAKER_01: Amalthea.
47:36
SPEAKER_01: And it was like I had fulfilled my
47:37
SPEAKER_01: childhood dream.
47:38
SPEAKER_01: I felt like I'd
47:39
SPEAKER_01: gone to Jupiter.
47:40
SPEAKER_01: And so this inspired me
47:42
SPEAKER_01: as a kid to
47:45
SPEAKER_01: know that there are these other
47:46
SPEAKER_01: worlds out there in our
47:48
SPEAKER_01: solar system that are part of
47:50
SPEAKER_01: the Earth's family, but they're all
47:51
SPEAKER_01: really, really, really different,
47:53
SPEAKER_01: and how special the Earth is.
47:54
SPEAKER_01: So as a kid, I knew how special the
47:55
SPEAKER_01: Earth was.
47:56
SPEAKER_01: And it's been a supreme
47:57
SPEAKER_01: privilege for me to
47:59
SPEAKER_01: be alive when we went to
48:01
SPEAKER_01: these planets for the very first
48:03
SPEAKER_01: time.
48:03
SPEAKER_01: It's been exciting.
48:05
SPEAKER_01: So that kind of thing just excites
48:07
SPEAKER_01: me, you know, ever since I was
48:09
SPEAKER_01: a kid.
48:10
SPEAKER_00: Amazing, Bob.
48:11
SPEAKER_00: Before we wrap up, you've
48:12
SPEAKER_00: interviewed over 7,000
48:15
SPEAKER_00: scientists translating everything
48:17
SPEAKER_00: from black holes to quantum
48:19
SPEAKER_00: mechanics for the rest of us.
48:21
SPEAKER_00: So this is a rhetoric question,
48:23
SPEAKER_00: because you brought up Taylor Swift
48:24
SPEAKER_00: earlier.
48:26
SPEAKER_00: Be honest, who's harder
48:28
SPEAKER_00: to pin down for a straight answer?
48:30
SPEAKER_00: A quantum physicist on parallel
48:32
SPEAKER_00: universes, or a Swiftie
48:34
SPEAKER_00: like myself, defending
48:36
SPEAKER_00: why concert tickets are more
48:38
SPEAKER_00: important than tax money for
48:40
SPEAKER_00: space research?
48:42
SPEAKER_01: If you can afford a Swiftie ticket,
48:44
SPEAKER_01: go for it.
48:45
SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm not, I'm not
48:47
SPEAKER_01: knocking Taylor Swift.
48:48
SPEAKER_01: She's actually very smart.
48:49
SPEAKER_01: She writes her own music.
48:50
SPEAKER_01: I really admire that.
48:52
SPEAKER_01: And she puts on great shows.
48:54
SPEAKER_01: I'm all for entertainment.
48:55
SPEAKER_01: But let's keep things in
48:56
SPEAKER_01: perspective.
48:57
SPEAKER_01: Let's not sacrifice
48:58
SPEAKER_01: the science for the sake of
49:00
SPEAKER_01: entertainment.
49:00
SPEAKER_01: Let's do both.
49:02
SPEAKER_01: Let's do both.
49:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
49:05
SPEAKER_01: And if you want to ask me who's my
49:07
SPEAKER_01: favorite scientist, I can't
49:09
SPEAKER_01: name too many, but
49:11
SPEAKER_01: every year when the Nobel Prize has
49:13
SPEAKER_01: come out, I get to talk to
49:15
SPEAKER_01: the people who just won the Nobel
49:17
SPEAKER_01: Prize.
49:17
SPEAKER_01: And that's always a special
49:18
SPEAKER_01: moment for me because they're
49:20
SPEAKER_01: excited, they've done something
49:21
SPEAKER_01: important, they did some big
49:23
SPEAKER_01: science.
49:24
SPEAKER_01: And that is always an exciting time
49:25
SPEAKER_01: for me when the Nobel Prizes come
49:27
SPEAKER_01: out.
49:27
SPEAKER_01: And I've also found that
49:30
SPEAKER_01: more senior scientists, scientists
49:31
SPEAKER_01: who have won the Nobel Prize or
49:33
SPEAKER_01: are way up in their field, they're
49:35
SPEAKER_01: the most poetic.
49:37
SPEAKER_01: And what's interesting about them
49:39
SPEAKER_01: is that they like to talk about what
49:40
SPEAKER_01: they don't know.
49:43
SPEAKER_01: They've been talking about what they
49:45
SPEAKER_01: did for their careers forever, but
49:47
SPEAKER_01: they're always excited about what
49:48
SPEAKER_01: they don't know, and they're
49:50
SPEAKER_01: interested in what their graduate
49:51
SPEAKER_01: students are working on.
49:52
SPEAKER_01: They're looking to the future.
49:54
SPEAKER_01: They're looking the future, and
49:55
SPEAKER_01: that's what I try to do.
49:57
SPEAKER_01: And I try be optimistic that
49:59
SPEAKER_01: we're smart.
50:01
SPEAKER_01: We're smart.
50:01
SPEAKER_01: We've been to the Moon
50:02
SPEAKER_01: and back, for God's sakes.
50:04
SPEAKER_01: We know how to do these things.
50:06
SPEAKER_01: If we can just do it.
50:08
SPEAKER_01: And I have faith in humanity that
50:10
SPEAKER_01: we're smart enough that we can
50:11
SPEAKER_01: engineer our way through this little
50:13
SPEAKER_01: bottleneck that we are in right now
50:15
SPEAKER_01: and come to a better future.
50:17
SPEAKER_01: I really do believe that.
50:19
SPEAKER_03: Well, thank you so much for this
50:20
SPEAKER_03: conversation.
50:21
SPEAKER_03: It's been a real pleasure, and thank
50:23
SPEAKER_03: you for helping all of us make a
50:25
SPEAKER_03: little more sense of the science
50:27
SPEAKER_03: shaping our world.
50:28
SPEAKER_03: This is The Science Diplomat signing
50:30
SPEAKER_03: off.