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Understanding Grief: Myths and Realities · Mental Health and the Mission of the Church

0:00
SPEAKER_01: So what happened is he was deceased.
0:03
SPEAKER_01: He had signed up to be a donor, an organ donor.
0:06
SPEAKER_01: When they came to her and asked her, Do you have any idea what you want to do with his organs?
0:10
SPEAKER_01: My best friend's daughter is her best friend.
0:12
SPEAKER_01: Now, only God can make these arrangements, man.
0:22
SPEAKER_00: Hey, it's Brittany Gardner, friend of Chip's and part of the team at Mental Health and Mission of the Church.
0:28
SPEAKER_00: In our last episode, we heard from Chip at length for the first time since his lung transplant.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: Just a day after the recording, he spoke with the woman who lost her husband, the man whose lungs gave Chip new life.
0:39
SPEAKER_00: With her blessing, Chip is now able to share this powerful story, one of deep grief and loss, but also of redemption and purpose.
0:47
SPEAKER_00: We want to honor the man who passed, a devoted family man, a police officer, and someone who battled mental health struggles.
0:54
SPEAKER_00: Chip's Church Podcast, hosted by Joey Svincent, who you often hear on this podcast, is covering grief in an upcoming series.
1:01
SPEAKER_00: Joey asked Chip some questions for those episodes, but you'll hear them here first.
1:06
SPEAKER_01: And what we try to do is alleviate the grieving by rational thinking.
1:11
SPEAKER_01: Like you'll find people that have had an abrupt tragic event, and Christians are probably the worst of this.
1:16
SPEAKER_01: We want to explain it.
1:17
SPEAKER_01: Well, God, this, and probably this, and you know, stop.
1:21
SPEAKER_01: Just stop.
1:22
SPEAKER_01: Your head cannot touch what you're feeling.
1:25
SPEAKER_01: Grief's the ultimate expression of powerlessness.
1:28
SPEAKER_01: It's the ultimate expression of what do you really believe about life and eternity?
1:34
SPEAKER_01: It takes you places that I I'm trying to not sound weird here, but I don't care how much you think you've prepared.
1:41
SPEAKER_01: It's the most final event you'll ever deal with in your life.
1:44
SPEAKER_00: Joining us today is Chip's close friend, Roy Jakes.
1:48
SPEAKER_00: Joey and Roy will follow up on last episode's conversation before Chip shares how he received his new lungs.
1:55
SPEAKER_00: We'll then close with a profound discussion on grief, one we hope will bring comfort and validation to those who are mourning.
2:01
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening.
2:03
SPEAKER_04: So have you guys gotten to talk, Annie?
2:06
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we have.
2:07
SPEAKER_02: We uh we got to spend some time together just last week.
2:10
SPEAKER_04: Nice.
2:11
SPEAKER_04: Well, cool.
2:12
SPEAKER_04: Roy, you had just listened to the last episode, and I wanted you to bring some follow-up questions.
2:19
SPEAKER_04: I had some too.
2:21
SPEAKER_04: But Chip, just how are how are you doing?
2:23
SPEAKER_04: It's been about two weeks removed from last conversation, and you had told us that you're you know, doctors say you're doing better than what you should be.
2:34
SPEAKER_04: You were super happy with how with where you were at, and even emotionally grateful, beyond grateful is what you said.
2:42
SPEAKER_04: So have you progressed in the right direction?
2:46
SPEAKER_04: What's going on with you right now?
2:47
SPEAKER_04: Oh, yeah.
2:48
SPEAKER_04: Welcome to your podcast.
2:50
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
2:52
SPEAKER_01: Tomorrow is eight weeks post-surgery.
2:55
SPEAKER_01: I would say at six weeks I turned a corner.
2:58
SPEAKER_01: The way I would put it is I I started to feel more like myself than I have since before surgery.
3:04
SPEAKER_01: In the last week, maybe this week we'll call it, another shift, you know, whatever.
3:11
SPEAKER_01: They busted my chest open to put the lungs in there.
3:13
SPEAKER_01: And so you're on what they call uh sternal precautions because they had to, you know, bust your sternum open, and it's held together by uh uh staples, and it will be the staples don't ever come out, but they they don't want you to mess with your upper body because they don't they want that reseal, you know.
3:33
SPEAKER_01: So I've been released from the uh sternal precautions uh literally today, and I went to rehab, which is basically cardio one day and strength training another.
3:44
SPEAKER_01: Uh did strength training yesterday, maybe it was yesterday I got released because we we kind of changed my workout radically.
3:51
SPEAKER_01: It just felt awesome.
3:53
SPEAKER_01: It felt awesome to do things I haven't done in two to three years.
3:57
SPEAKER_01: I woke up this morning with burning legs, you know what I mean?
4:02
SPEAKER_01: And I have not felt that in oh gosh, three to three, four years.
4:07
SPEAKER_02: Now, when we were together last week, Chip, you were you told me the next day, did you get released to drive?
4:12
SPEAKER_02: Did you get to drive?
4:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, I'm driving.
4:15
SPEAKER_01: Come on.
4:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:16
SPEAKER_01: Now, I haven't been anywhere by myself yet, because I really can't go anywhere.
4:21
SPEAKER_01: Uh can't go inside.
4:22
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I can a little bit, but yeah, I'm I uh you know I'm still dealing with some stuff.
4:27
SPEAKER_01: The diabetes that some of the medications uh basically have made me hopefully temporarily diabetic.
4:36
SPEAKER_01: Uh I mean like I'm taking insulin shots the whole nine yards, but my sugars are coming down, so I go back to the doctor's Tuesday.
4:44
SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
4:46
SPEAKER_01: You're putting on any weight.
4:47
SPEAKER_01: I am.
4:48
SPEAKER_01: I am.
4:49
SPEAKER_01: In fact, in fact, I'm at a point where I want to stop putting on weight.
4:52
SPEAKER_01: Ah uh I'd like to have stayed where I was about a week ago.
4:57
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm when I was on the downward, I lost one to two pounds a day.
5:02
SPEAKER_01: Now I'm gaining one to two pounds a day.
5:04
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you probably haven't watched what you've eaten at all, right?
5:07
SPEAKER_04: Um I guess maybe you have to with the diabetes.
5:10
SPEAKER_01: Well, here's the deal.
5:12
SPEAKER_01: Their primary goal was I mean, my weight got like scary, low.
5:17
SPEAKER_01: And so they said, eat anything you want.
5:19
SPEAKER_01: We need you, we need you to gain weight.
5:22
SPEAKER_01: And uh so I kind of got in the habit of eating whatever I wanted.
5:27
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
5:28
SPEAKER_01: So I gotta I gotta trim it back some and figure it out.
5:31
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, Joey, you're right.
5:32
SPEAKER_01: Now I need to shift into eating in a more uh you know sugar mindful way.
5:39
SPEAKER_01: Um I you know, anybody got any secrets?
5:43
SPEAKER_01: For me, it's hard to get protein to the level I need it to be.
5:47
SPEAKER_01: Like I need I need a third or more 30, 40 percent of my food to be protein.
5:53
SPEAKER_01: And man, that's hard.
5:54
SPEAKER_01: It's it's hard.
5:56
SPEAKER_01: But whatever, that's not what we're here to talk about.
5:58
SPEAKER_04: So yeah.
5:59
SPEAKER_04: Hey, I uh before Roy jumps in and asks some questions about our conversation, I've got one from an introvert to another, and you may not have yourself that simplified as far as categorizing yourself as an introvert, but I I know that you and I both recharge similarly.
6:19
SPEAKER_04: The whole having to stay at home ain't that big of a deal to you, is it?
6:23
SPEAKER_05: It would destroy Roy.
6:26
SPEAKER_05: It would destroy Roy, but you're like I ain't that bad.
6:33
SPEAKER_01: You're I mean, you're absolutely right, Joey.
6:35
SPEAKER_01: I uh I don't mind being alone.
6:38
SPEAKER_01: I I love being at home.
6:40
SPEAKER_01: Now, I do I do get a little bit of cabin fever.
6:43
SPEAKER_01: Um I'll go sit at Barnes and Noble every once in a while and you know get a table off to myself and Colleen will be with me sometimes.
6:50
SPEAKER_01: But that's about it.
6:52
SPEAKER_01: Like we might try to catch a Costco on some random morning that there aren't gonna be that many people and just stroll and get what we need.
7:00
SPEAKER_01: Just can't go anywhere.
7:01
SPEAKER_01: But you're right, it's it is definitely not torture to me at all.
7:06
SPEAKER_01: I I I I can read.
7:08
SPEAKER_01: Now the problem is the the medications I'm on, uh like my sleep's pretty jacked up.
7:13
SPEAKER_01: Like last night I went to sleep about 10 and I was up at four.
7:17
SPEAKER_03: Oh wow.
7:18
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, come nine o'clock, you feel like you know it's afternoon.
7:22
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
7:22
SPEAKER_01: And it's just weird.
7:24
SPEAKER_01: And I don't mind it because I love the quietness at four.
7:28
SPEAKER_01: But I'm I'm a I'm a little tired just because of the weirdness of it.
7:33
SPEAKER_01: But bottom line, man, I'm doing great.
7:36
SPEAKER_01: I uh uh you know I'm gonna do everything the doctors tell me to do.
7:39
SPEAKER_01: Uh if they say hibernate, I'm gonna hibernate.
7:43
SPEAKER_01: If they say you can start a little bit of this or that, I'm gonna do it.
7:46
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I got a new lease on life, dude.
7:48
SPEAKER_01: And uh by the grace of God, I wanna enjoy it.
7:52
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it it is, I mean, I I don't I didn't talk this frank, obviously, before you had your lung transplant, but there was I I you know I we're we're all friends, I'll just be honest.
8:07
SPEAKER_04: I didn't have God tell me what he told you.
8:10
SPEAKER_04: Right.
8:10
SPEAKER_04: I was just believing what you were saying, but reality was setting into me where I told Priscilla, I was just like, I'm not ready to lose him.
8:19
SPEAKER_04: Like I don't, I don't and and I and I kind of felt like maybe this is gonna happen because I've been on down this rodeo multiple times where things look like they're in despair and we believe otherwise, and then it still doesn't go well.
8:35
SPEAKER_04: So yeah, it's something special and profound to be talking to you and that part is gone.
8:45
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
8:46
SPEAKER_04: As far as your old lungs taking you out, that's not an issue anymore.
8:50
SPEAKER_04: That's really it's really me.
8:52
SPEAKER_01: Colleen, my wife, would say pretty much something very, very, very similar.
8:56
SPEAKER_01: She said, It's amazing to wake up, whether it's in the middle of the night or morning or whatever, and that that that weight's just gone.
9:04
SPEAKER_01: It's just gone.
9:05
SPEAKER_01: And and I mean, we carried it for eight years.
9:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
9:08
SPEAKER_01: So uh, and she carried it much harder than I did.
9:12
SPEAKER_01: Because she didn't have that word from God either.
9:15
SPEAKER_01: She had she had my my word about the word, but she didn't have the word.
9:20
SPEAKER_01: You know what's interesting, and again, I don't necessarily want to get all theological, but um, there's something to be said for you know interpreting scripture correctly.
9:28
SPEAKER_01: You know, Romans 10, 17, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
9:33
SPEAKER_01: That doesn't mean just reading your Bible.
9:35
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and again, forgive me, people, if I'm ruining this for you.
9:38
SPEAKER_01: That word there is Rhema, not logos, meaning a spoken word.
9:43
SPEAKER_01: Faith comes from intimacy.
9:45
SPEAKER_01: I know Roy and I know Joey.
9:47
SPEAKER_01: Why?
9:47
SPEAKER_01: Because I've spent time with them, we've laughed, we've cried, we've whatever.
9:51
SPEAKER_01: So, so uh there's an intimacy, and if you speak a word to me, it carries different weight.
9:57
SPEAKER_01: And and and the thing about it is faith comes by hearing.
10:01
SPEAKER_01: In other words, you've got to posture yourself to be in hearing mode, and hearing by the word of God, Rhema.
10:07
SPEAKER_01: What I watched often is people that well, the script scripture says, I said, yeah, but has God said that to you?
10:14
SPEAKER_01: Has has it been from God's lips to your ear?
10:18
SPEAKER_01: That's when faith comes.
10:19
SPEAKER_01: Joey tells me, hey, I'll I'll meet you tomorrow at 9 o'clock and I'm buying breakfast.
10:24
SPEAKER_01: Well, that came from Joey's mouth.
10:26
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't Roy telling me Joey's gonna meet you at 9 o'clock.
10:30
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you couldn't believe that.
10:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he might he might be setting me up to just make fun of me.
10:35
SPEAKER_01: But whatever.
10:37
SPEAKER_01: Don't mean to bust anybody's balloon, but I tell I'll be honest with you, Joey.
10:41
SPEAKER_01: I was weirded out by it.
10:43
SPEAKER_01: I was weirded out by the peace that I lived in.
10:47
SPEAKER_02: Would you would you say it this way, Chip?
10:49
SPEAKER_02: Would you say it's almost like what I hear you saying is it's until it becomes personal.
10:55
SPEAKER_02: Like it's one thing to read it, it's another thing to hear it.
10:59
SPEAKER_02: In in your intimacy with the Lord, he confirms that in you.
11:03
SPEAKER_02: Like it it becomes a whole it's it's it's a whole nother level of truth because it's personal now.
11:08
SPEAKER_01: And it was, I like what you said, I can't remember the word you used, but it was like repr repeated is not the right thing.
11:15
SPEAKER_01: It almost had like a living presence of its own.
11:18
SPEAKER_01: Because there were times I was talking to somebody trying to kind of tell them how I'm doing, when we got to wanting to talk about this particular part of it, I would say, I'm experiencing the only words I can use are effortless peace.
11:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was like effortless for me to have peace.
11:33
SPEAKER_01: Now, it was shaken a few times.
11:35
SPEAKER_01: You know, the liver biopsy shook it pretty good.
11:37
SPEAKER_02: I think there's just more to learn, you know.
11:40
SPEAKER_02: You know, just uh I I listened to y'all's conversation last week or two weeks ago, and you and I had we had a conversation last week, and I heard a lot of that directly from you.
11:50
SPEAKER_02: So I got a couple of questions, kind of leading questions, because you you shared a few things with me that I don't think are private or anything.
11:56
SPEAKER_02: I think it'd be interesting for people to hear you just kind of even just just understanding your journey and stuff.
12:02
SPEAKER_02: One of the things that you you told me last week is just the sensation, uh, the the nerve that they cut in your in your old lungs.
12:09
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
12:09
SPEAKER_02: And just could you talk about that?
12:11
SPEAKER_02: I'm sure people would be fascinated to hear you just talk about what's that experience like for you.
12:15
SPEAKER_01: Right.
12:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so if there's any medical people, and I botched this, forgive me, but to uh to my recollection, this is the way that it was explained to me.
12:23
SPEAKER_01: Apparently, there's nerves.
12:25
SPEAKER_04: I'm I'm pretty medical.
12:26
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
12:27
SPEAKER_04: All right.
12:27
SPEAKER_01: Well, you correct me.
12:28
SPEAKER_01: Correct me if I need you.
12:29
SPEAKER_02: Slept at a holiday in last night.
12:34
SPEAKER_01: So apparently, there's two nerves that connect to your lungs.
12:39
SPEAKER_01: Well, to change your lungs, they have to cut the nerves, and nerves don't grow back.
12:45
SPEAKER_01: So the lungs that I currently have are not connected by nerves to my body, meaning my nervous system has no direct connection to my lungs.
12:55
SPEAKER_01: Apparently, it's not that big a deal.
12:58
SPEAKER_01: What opens and closes your lungs is your diaphragm.
13:01
SPEAKER_01: So when you get a transplant, your lungs don't know what to do.
13:07
SPEAKER_01: You kind of have to relearn how to breathe.
13:10
SPEAKER_01: Well, what you do is you breathe the way you've been breathing.
13:16
SPEAKER_01: Well, I've been breathing like this.
13:20
SPEAKER_01: Because that's all I could do.
13:21
SPEAKER_01: So what's happened as I've got the new lungs that that that I can I can take a breath that feels like it's never gonna stop.
13:30
SPEAKER_01: But I have to think about it to do it.
13:32
SPEAKER_01: What'll happen all through the day?
13:34
SPEAKER_04: So it's not involuntary.
13:35
SPEAKER_04: It's not involuntary.
13:37
SPEAKER_04: It used to be.
13:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:38
SPEAKER_01: And so now what'll happen is not as it's diminishing, but what'll happen as I go through the day is I'll I'll feel out of breath.
13:46
SPEAKER_01: And for just a second, I'll be scared.
13:48
SPEAKER_01: Like, what's going on?
13:49
SPEAKER_01: And then I realize I was I wasn't breathing.
13:52
SPEAKER_01: I was and it's like, dude, breathe.
13:58
SPEAKER_01: And I'll I'll I'll go to I'll go to rehab and be working out, and um, I'll get out of breath and I'm like, dude, you've been doing this for weeks.
14:07
SPEAKER_01: What's the deal?
14:08
SPEAKER_01: And then I realize, breathe, dude, breathe.
14:12
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
14:12
SPEAKER_01: And just one one good, two good breaths, and I'm there I am.
14:17
SPEAKER_01: I'm cool.
14:18
SPEAKER_01: And some of the medications, oh my gosh, the shaking and all.
14:21
SPEAKER_01: But the lungs are interesting, and and they they tell me that it can take up to six months for your lungs and body to get synchronized like they were at one time.
14:32
SPEAKER_01: Now, we'll see, because it's better already, but has the shaking gotten better?
14:36
SPEAKER_02: I know you we you Joey asked that question about the introvertedness and being at home.
14:40
SPEAKER_02: One of the things I know you love to do is you love to read.
14:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
14:43
SPEAKER_02: That's kind of cramped that a little bit.
14:45
SPEAKER_02: Has that gotten any better?
14:47
SPEAKER_01: That it doesn't, it's not bad enough just that.
14:49
SPEAKER_01: Now it was it was for I don't know, the first maybe month.
14:53
SPEAKER_01: Now it's like like Colleen and I like to put puzzles together.
14:56
SPEAKER_01: You know, we're here by ourselves.
14:58
SPEAKER_01: I'll I'll see a piece that fits, and I can't, and I'll say, Colleen, here, you're gonna have to do that.
15:03
SPEAKER_01: Because I can't I can't manipulate the pieces without do y'all laugh about it?
15:07
SPEAKER_04: Like, do you allow your kids to make fun of you, or is that not a joking matter?
15:11
SPEAKER_01: Dude, I'm not I'm not around my kids any more than I am you.
15:14
SPEAKER_05: Seriously.
15:16
SPEAKER_01: Um but I yeah, I don't care.
15:19
SPEAKER_04: And my son's the one most likely to do that, but Roy, I'm I'm curious through this whole journey of it's especially once things really got rocking and rolling with the lung lung transplants, was there ever a time in which you would typically call Chip A for advice or B just to vent and you're like, Nope, not doing it.
15:46
SPEAKER_04: I know what he's going through.
15:47
SPEAKER_04: I for sure.
15:49
SPEAKER_04: There was at least twice where I was like, Well, here's when I would call Chip not doing it.
15:54
SPEAKER_02: There's no doubt.
15:55
SPEAKER_02: Even in his recovery, even his recovery, you know, we we we've been talking like, you know, when we we kind of we finally were able to make it happen last week.
16:03
SPEAKER_02: I I was able to be be around him and see him for the first time.
16:07
SPEAKER_02: And but we had been talking about it, and and there's been moments where I thought, golly, I need to go over there and hang with Chip just so I can like get his advice.
16:14
SPEAKER_02: But I'm like, he's not in any shape right now for me to be dumping all my stuff on him and be looking for advice from him right now.
16:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
16:22
SPEAKER_04: Chip, have you had anybody that aren't as uh considerate and mature as Roy and I, and they reached out for help, and you're like, dude, I can't help right now.
16:34
SPEAKER_04: I'm going through it, man.
16:36
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, kind of I I'm kind of joking, but I'm kind of serious.
16:39
SPEAKER_04: Like you you're you're a helper to many people.
16:41
SPEAKER_04: Like, has there ever been situations through this where you're just like I can't answer that text?
16:46
SPEAKER_01: You know, I I think I met a three-year-old that you guys were almost as mature as.
16:54
SPEAKER_01: No, uh, you know, honestly, I just I I have not answered my phone in two months.
17:02
SPEAKER_01: Unless I know who it is.
17:04
SPEAKER_01: Uh and then of course, if I know who it is, there's sometimes I have an answer.
17:09
SPEAKER_01: And and again, anybody forgive me, but I've taken this posture.
17:13
SPEAKER_01: Somewhere in the neighborhood of three to six months, I'm gonna be in you know, intense recovery.
17:19
SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna ask grace.
17:21
SPEAKER_01: And if you don't have enough grace, then we must not be meant to journey together.
17:25
SPEAKER_01: Because I'm just I'm I I I refuse to worry about that.
17:30
SPEAKER_01: If somebody can't give me the grace to not answer the phone, you know, leave me a message, shoot me a text, and I'll decide if I want to respond.
17:38
SPEAKER_01: But but I'm okay not responding.
17:40
SPEAKER_01: And again, you know, you've heard me talk about I care deeply, but I don't carry.
17:45
SPEAKER_01: My deal is if if if I'm your solution, you're in a world hurt.
17:51
SPEAKER_01: And uh and and I refuse to be your your only solution, whoever you are, where whatever your situation is.
17:59
SPEAKER_01: But I'm honored to be a part of your solution.
18:02
SPEAKER_01: But and again, forgive me if it sounds cold, but I just don't lose sleep over that kind of stuff.
18:08
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
18:08
SPEAKER_01: I try to I try to be fully present with people when I'm with them.
18:13
SPEAKER_01: And I mean, how many times are you gonna go through a lung transplant after facing potentially the end of your life?
18:21
SPEAKER_01: In other words, a pretty stressful season.
18:24
SPEAKER_04: Roy, does that come easy for you too?
18:25
SPEAKER_04: Because I'm thinking Enneagram numbers where I'm a nine, it's something I really had to work on, is kind of following his lead and not letting that kind of stuff bother me.
18:34
SPEAKER_04: Does that come natural for you?
18:36
SPEAKER_04: Because you're also you're also a naturally wired up pastor, so you guys both naturally care too.
18:42
SPEAKER_02: It's something that I'm that I've grown in and I'm growing in.
18:46
SPEAKER_02: Um it it helps that I've gone through a burnout season where I know the effects of carrying people's stuff too much.
18:54
SPEAKER_02: But you know, fortunately, I'm uh you know, yeah, I'm I'm 15, 16 years removed from that, but I remember it like it was yesterday.
19:03
SPEAKER_02: You know, and I was talking to somebody just this past week about it to realize like I can't be, I can't fix everybody's problems.
19:10
SPEAKER_02: And m more importantly, like even if I can fix some of their problems, I can't fix them today.
19:16
SPEAKER_02: I can't fix them tonight.
19:17
SPEAKER_02: And so if I get that call at five o'clock in the you know, six o'clock in the evening, it can probably wait until tomorrow.
19:24
SPEAKER_02: Right.
19:24
SPEAKER_02: Like there are very few, very few conversations, very few people that I need to drop everything and go go deal with now.
19:32
SPEAKER_02: Right.
19:32
SPEAKER_02: And uh, you know, Pastor Greg or or or uh somebody, I I I think it was but a kind of a phrase we use around here saying is they didn't get there overnight and we can't get them out there, you know, we can't get them out of it overnight.
19:43
SPEAKER_02: And so I'm gr I've grown tremendously in that.
19:46
SPEAKER_02: It's a fine line of like um I don't want to ever become numb to people's pain, like like I don't care, but I also know that for my own mental health, my own family's health, my marriage, I have to be able to say no that that can wait until tomorrow or that can wait until next week or whenever.
20:05
SPEAKER_01: A way that I frame it is there's very, very, very few true emergencies.
20:14
SPEAKER_01: Most of what people are calling you about are not emergencies.
20:17
SPEAKER_01: They're issues they've been dealing with for months, if not years, maybe decades, that have become inflamed or something.
20:26
SPEAKER_01: And to them, this is an emergency.
20:29
SPEAKER_01: Well, it's been going on for years.
20:31
SPEAKER_01: I don't dance to that music very well.
21:14
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I one thing that I have really been practicing lately, I feel like the last couple of years has been almost like a rebooting with how I do stuff, how I communicate with people, and I think a big shift is I don't text how other people text.
21:35
SPEAKER_04: Now, sure there will be a time where I text Roy, and Roy would be.
21:39
SPEAKER_01: There's nobody that would argue with that, Joey.
21:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you definitely do not text.
21:43
SPEAKER_04: Nobody would argue with that.
21:46
SPEAKER_04: I probably mean it a little differently than what you guys are thinking.
21:50
SPEAKER_04: But but Roy and I, for sure, there'll be times where he'll text me and I'll text him back and we'll go back and forth.
21:56
SPEAKER_04: I also know Roy would not be offended if he texts me and I text him back later two days from now.
22:02
SPEAKER_04: But there are some people they would be like, I texted you and you didn't text back.
22:08
SPEAKER_04: And I just I don't care about that kind of stuff.
22:10
SPEAKER_04: Like I think about texting and how 25 years ago we didn't even people didn't have that kind of access to it.
22:16
SPEAKER_04: Right.
22:17
SPEAKER_04: And now it's it's kind of one of those things that we all just are like, yeah, you I texted you.
22:22
SPEAKER_04: I'm expecting a text back within the next 30 minutes, and I don't want to play that text game at all.
22:27
SPEAKER_04: I'm I'm I'd have to say I'm pretty proud of how I am with my phone.
22:32
SPEAKER_04: I I used to couldn't say that, and I I can say I've seen a difference, Joey.
22:36
SPEAKER_01: I've seen a difference in the way you communicate, yeah.
22:39
SPEAKER_01: You've you've actually Told me to go pound sand in your in your kind of gentle way.
22:45
SPEAKER_01: You you never used to it, you never used to would have done that.
22:48
SPEAKER_04: I don't even know what that saying means.
22:51
SPEAKER_04: Well, it means whatever I'm wanting, you're not gonna do.
22:56
SPEAKER_05: Isn't that true?
22:57
SPEAKER_01: No, I just mean I mean in a good way.
22:59
SPEAKER_01: I like it.
23:01
SPEAKER_01: But but I've noticed you you're just a you're just an appropriately incrementally better at being assertive.
23:09
SPEAKER_01: And I really I really like it.
23:11
SPEAKER_04: Wow, that's really interesting.
23:12
SPEAKER_04: You'll have to give me an example if you can think of one at some point, because that's I don't see clear examples of that.
23:18
SPEAKER_04: That's interesting, you know, especially for someone like you.
23:20
SPEAKER_01: Dude, I've seen you stand up for yourself in meetings with Pastor Greg.
23:25
SPEAKER_01: You never would have done that before.
23:26
SPEAKER_04: Don't don't recall that one either.
23:28
SPEAKER_01: The conversations go in a certain direction, and you you know, you wait for an appropriate opportunity, and then you just like you know that's not gonna work because blah, blah, blah, blah.
23:36
SPEAKER_01: And you never would have done that.
23:38
SPEAKER_01: What you would have done is after the meeting, you probably would have come to me or whatever and said, Hey, I can't do that.
23:45
SPEAKER_01: Like, what blah blah blah blah.
23:46
SPEAKER_01: Maybe.
23:47
SPEAKER_01: But I've watched you, you're your your assertive level is is edging up.
23:52
SPEAKER_01: I like it.
23:52
SPEAKER_04: Thanks, man.
23:53
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
23:53
SPEAKER_04: Thanks.
23:54
SPEAKER_04: It's it's so neat to hear that from you.
23:56
SPEAKER_04: And then my therapist told me recently too something very profound that she sees as a change.
24:03
SPEAKER_04: And it's like, it's really encouraging to hear that from people that I really look up to.
24:08
SPEAKER_04: So I appreciate it.
24:09
SPEAKER_02: In a similar sense, I was talking, we were a couple of pastors and I were talking recently, and I was saying to them, I said, uh the thing about this job, when you're in the people business, when you're in the pastoral care business, you've you've better get comfortable disappointing people because there's there's it's just it's just a necessary part of the job that you cannot, again, same thing we were just saying, you cannot be there for everybody's problem when they, you know, right then, when they need whatever.
24:39
SPEAKER_02: And I disappoint people.
24:40
SPEAKER_02: I know they I know I don't because for the my own sake, my own help, my own family, I don't return messages sometimes timely, and I don't respond immediately.
24:51
SPEAKER_02: And I'm gonna disappoint people, and that's okay.
24:53
SPEAKER_02: I gotta get okay with doing that.
24:58
SPEAKER_04: Chip has needed a friend to talk to.
25:00
SPEAKER_04: He's texted you every day.
25:02
SPEAKER_04: I know this, Roy, and you have not returned those texts.
25:07
SPEAKER_02: Hey Chip, change of gears real quick.
25:08
SPEAKER_02: Hey, one of the things I know y'all touched on in your last conversation, and I think you know, what however you know, whatever comfortable you're you're willing to share, additional.
25:17
SPEAKER_02: Um, did you I think you've had a chance to talk with the family.
25:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
25:21
SPEAKER_02: And anything you want to share from that conversation?
25:23
SPEAKER_02: Well, I think you want to.
25:24
SPEAKER_01: I wish I had reversed two two two phone calls.
25:27
SPEAKER_01: That call, the podcast.
25:29
SPEAKER_01: And the next day, I FaceTimed with the wife of the gentleman whose lungs I now have.
25:37
SPEAKER_04: Gracious goodness.
25:38
SPEAKER_01: His name's PJ, and she said, I can share anything I want.
25:42
SPEAKER_01: The bottom line is PJ was dealing with a mental health crisis.
25:47
SPEAKER_01: He was a police officer, had had been a SWAT officer in Baltimore.
25:53
SPEAKER_01: Now, I'm I'm not going by detailed information, but I'm could I'm guessing a SWAT in Baltimore probably has seen some stuff.
26:02
SPEAKER_01: So the bottom line is he was in a crisis.
26:05
SPEAKER_01: She knew it.
26:07
SPEAKER_01: They were trying to decide what to do and how to get him the best help.
26:11
SPEAKER_01: She was watching him like a hawk.
26:13
SPEAKER_01: I think they were out in their backyard.
26:15
SPEAKER_01: She knew he's he was a police officer.
26:18
SPEAKER_01: He had quite a gun collection.
26:20
SPEAKER_01: She just knew he was there, like ready to do something.
26:23
SPEAKER_01: So she was watching him like a hawk.
26:25
SPEAKER_01: Well, sure enough, in the yard, she saw him reaching in his pocket.
26:29
SPEAKER_01: I don't know distances, time, but the bottom line is she went over there knowing he was about to do something.
26:36
SPEAKER_01: And sure enough, he had a gun.
26:38
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if they wrestled or she got there just in time or whatever.
26:42
SPEAKER_01: But he fired the gun, it went through her hand and into his head.
26:48
SPEAKER_01: And um when I talked to her uh that next day, she was in the hospital having her third surgery on her hand.
26:57
SPEAKER_01: So what happened is uh, you know, he he was deceased.
27:01
SPEAKER_01: He had signed up to be a donor, an organ donor.
27:04
SPEAKER_01: When they came to her and asked her, Do you have any idea what you want to do with his organs?
27:08
SPEAKER_01: My best friend's daughter is her best friend.
27:11
SPEAKER_01: Now, only God can make these arrangements, man.
27:14
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
27:14
SPEAKER_04: Say that again.
27:15
SPEAKER_04: Your your best friend's daughter is their daughter's best friend.
27:18
SPEAKER_01: My my best friend from college, and we've been friends for 50 years.
27:22
SPEAKER_04: Which I thought I was, but go ahead.
27:25
SPEAKER_03: Well, you're you're you're you're my hey, you're my best friend on another list.
27:34
SPEAKER_03: You know, Chip's Hey, I'm Chip's best investment.
27:38
SPEAKER_04: Remember Josh talked about investment?
27:41
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
27:42
SPEAKER_04: That's a great I like it.
27:44
SPEAKER_04: I like it.
27:44
SPEAKER_04: I require energy for chip.
27:46
SPEAKER_04: I'm sorry, go ahead.
27:47
SPEAKER_04: This is not a funny thing at all.
27:50
SPEAKER_01: Joey, Joey, Joey, Joey, Joey Joey.
27:52
SPEAKER_01: So my best friend's daughter is the wife's best friend, and her name's Lauren, by the way.
27:58
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
27:58
SPEAKER_01: And Lauren immediately said chip chip judd for the lungs because she knew about the situation.
28:04
SPEAKER_01: And then it was a series of phone calls over the next day or two.
28:07
SPEAKER_01: And again, there's cool coolness to that story because it was such a freaky thing to Colleen and I were getting these random phone calls, like, do you need a pair of lungs?
28:15
SPEAKER_01: And we're like, Who are you?
28:17
SPEAKER_01: Now we had met Lauren, gosh, back when she was, I don't know, 10, teenager, because of the best friend thing.
28:25
SPEAKER_01: They lived up in Baltimore.
28:27
SPEAKER_01: My best friend.
28:28
SPEAKER_01: We talked.
28:29
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I think she's doing tremendously well.
28:32
SPEAKER_01: I think she's self-aware.
28:34
SPEAKER_01: I think she's handling her kids great.
28:36
SPEAKER_01: She, oh, I'm trying to remember.
28:38
SPEAKER_01: She had a great way she worded some things, just great.
28:41
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't dodging the truth, but it was framing it in a in a way that a child could handle better.
28:47
SPEAKER_01: I just thought it was brilliant.
28:49
SPEAKER_01: She wants to meet in person.
28:50
SPEAKER_01: Probably this summer, her and her kids are going to come down to my best friend's house over in IOP, and we're going to probably meet this summer in person.
28:58
SPEAKER_05: Wow.
28:58
SPEAKER_01: And um, if I and and uh Lauren, forgive me if I get this wrong, but I think she said something along these lines.
29:06
SPEAKER_01: I want to be able to introduce my kids to you, and here's the connection I want them to make.
29:12
SPEAKER_01: This man is alive because of your father.
29:16
SPEAKER_02: Amen.
29:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
29:17
SPEAKER_01: And I thought I would be honored.
29:19
SPEAKER_01: I'd be honored to give her kids something like that to hold on to.
29:24
SPEAKER_01: It's just it's just a story.
29:26
SPEAKER_01: Like the even my transplant team doctors and everybody, they're like, I've never heard anything like this before.
29:32
SPEAKER_01: Never.
29:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
29:33
SPEAKER_01: Who who could miss the hand of God in this, man?
29:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
29:36
SPEAKER_01: It's just nuts.
29:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Chip.
29:38
SPEAKER_02: I've that's this is now, I mean, I've I heard that I heard that story from your kids in the hospital, right?
29:44
SPEAKER_02: Like right right after surgery, and you and I have talked about it.
29:47
SPEAKER_02: I've I've until this morning, I and you you may have had this thought, but we haven't said this out loud, we haven't we haven't talked about this.
29:55
SPEAKER_02: I was thinking about your story this morning on the way over here for this conversation, and it hit me for the first time in in thinking about that story.
30:03
SPEAKER_02: The irony that here's a man who has dedicated you thinking the same thing, his adult ministry, his entire adult ministry to helping the solve the mental health crisis in the church, and you're alive today because of somebody's mental health crisis.
30:22
SPEAKER_02: Right.
30:22
SPEAKER_02: Um like what an incredible I I don't know what the right even word is to use.
30:28
SPEAKER_02: Like what a way to to to to literally give you life to continue to do, to continue to do what you do, to continue this mission of helping people get get healthy.
30:41
SPEAKER_02: Um it's just I think it's an incredible, crazy, iron ironic part of the story.
30:47
SPEAKER_04: Well, it's it's so profound.
30:50
SPEAKER_04: And I the three of us, I I know you two, so I I I can speak for you here.
30:56
SPEAKER_04: The three of us, we don't see that guy as a failure.
30:59
SPEAKER_04: We see that guy as someone who lost to mental illness, and we know how real that is.
31:05
SPEAKER_04: So it's almost like I mean, it's not almost, it God is redeeming that, and in some way, shape, or form, it's honoring his life.
31:17
SPEAKER_04: Like and it and it just it highlights to me just how gruesome mental illness is and that it can take out anybody.
31:26
SPEAKER_04: I know that from experience.
31:28
SPEAKER_04: And oh my gosh.
31:30
SPEAKER_04: Like when when when you were saying that, that's the first thing my mind went to is Chip has the lungs of someone who took his life, and that is Chip's calling is to help people like that.
31:43
SPEAKER_04: I mean, it's like it's like you guys in in a in a weird way are partnered in ministry.
31:49
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's cool.
31:50
SPEAKER_04: I mean, he he is ministering to people who struggle with the same thing.
31:55
SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna lose it, man.
31:57
SPEAKER_04: That's unbelievable.
31:58
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
31:59
SPEAKER_01: Imagine when I meet him, man.
32:02
SPEAKER_01: I mean that's gonna be a cool little moment.
32:04
SPEAKER_01: Of course, meeting his wife and kids is gonna be pretty cool.
32:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:07
SPEAKER_02: But uh I think you even used the words last time you when you said this, when she initially called or or when she was asked who do you want the lungs to go to?
32:16
SPEAKER_02: I think you said that she wanted to go to somebody who was going to do something with their life.
32:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
32:23
SPEAKER_02: And I again, like the her her her husband's story is going to be redeemed by the fact that his lungs are gonna help you continue to help future people not suffer the same fate, hopefully by the grace of God.
32:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Lauren's very much looking at it through that filter.
32:43
SPEAKER_01: Very much.
32:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:45
SPEAKER_01: Awesome, man.
32:46
SPEAKER_04: Chip, do you mind uh change shifting gears?
32:49
SPEAKER_04: I I betcha it'll be refreshing to get the attention off yourself a little bit and and talk something a little more.
32:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm about done with that.
32:59
SPEAKER_04: So, so here's what we're gonna do for your listeners.
33:04
SPEAKER_04: I'm pretty certain that the rest of this conversation will be aired on Seacoast Podcast.
33:11
SPEAKER_04: You you, Chip's listeners, will get this way ahead.
33:15
SPEAKER_04: Uh, Chip, we are doing a couple of episodes on grief, and I want to hit up a therapist for one of them, and I just thought, well, let's let's do this with you.
33:28
SPEAKER_04: So I have a few questions concerning grief, and obviously thinking of family who is grieving right now, too.
33:36
SPEAKER_04: Five questions that I think we we've we've already recorded the conversations with folks who have gone through grief, and some of the questions that that popped in my head that I thought would be good to integrate into these episodes.
33:52
SPEAKER_04: One being, and I've heard some of this talk from you chip, is just how abrasive grief can be, and certain things that potentially people are surprised about when they're going through grief for the first time, or families of that person or seeing their family or friends suffering with grief, and they're just like, wow, I'm I didn't know that.
34:19
SPEAKER_04: What are some things that you just don't know about grief until you've gone through it?
34:24
SPEAKER_04: Like maybe misconceptions.
34:26
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
34:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, even as you were framing the question, it my mind kind of went to something pretty, pretty kind of obvious.
34:32
SPEAKER_01: We're talking real deal, lost loved one, tragic stuff.
34:36
SPEAKER_01: We're not talking like, yeah, you know, I didn't know.
34:38
SPEAKER_01: We're talking worst-case scenario.
34:40
SPEAKER_01: I didn't get the car I wanted or something.
34:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
34:42
SPEAKER_01: Right.
34:43
SPEAKER_01: Well, here's the deal.
34:43
SPEAKER_01: There's no, I don't care, I don't care what you say.
34:47
SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, I'm prepared, you know.
34:49
SPEAKER_01: You cannot prepare for something that you have no conception of.
34:53
SPEAKER_01: Nothing, nothing can compare you for your first bout with certain levels of grief.
35:00
SPEAKER_01: Now, here's the thing.
35:02
SPEAKER_01: Again, depending on your relationship to your parents and whatever, losing a parent at 90, way different than losing a child at 13 or a spouse.
35:11
SPEAKER_01: Oh, well, I, you know, I've already gone through losing my parents.
35:14
SPEAKER_01: Grief's the ultimate, the ultimate expression of lots of things.
35:18
SPEAKER_01: It's the ultimate expression of powerlessness.
35:20
SPEAKER_01: It's the ultimate expression of of what do you really believe about life and eternity?
35:27
SPEAKER_01: And it it takes you places that I don't I'm I'm trying to not sound weird here, but I don't care how much you think you've prepared.
35:37
SPEAKER_01: It's the most final event you you'll ever deal with in your life.
35:41
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I can remember, again, never not losing anyone like spouse or kids, but losing friends, parents.
35:49
SPEAKER_01: And I can remember thoughts like, you know, just that ambush you.
35:53
SPEAKER_01: You know, you're kind of cruising along fairly well, and then something triggers you, and you think, no, this side of heaven, I'm never gonna see them again.
36:03
SPEAKER_01: I'm never I'm never gonna lay eyes on them, I'm never gonna uh have a hug, a conversation.
36:10
SPEAKER_01: Grief grief's grief's a monster, man.
36:14
SPEAKER_04: I was asking my therapist some questions about grief that and you know, she's she's just one person, but I value her perspective also, and I don't know how literally she meant this from a scientific perspective, but it sounded like science.
36:32
SPEAKER_04: She said that the first six months of of grief, regardless of how someone acts or behaves, it's considered normal because of the grief.
36:44
SPEAKER_04: Like, in other words, how the person responds is one big question mark, and nobody is scratching their heads being like, Why are they doing that?
36:52
SPEAKER_04: Why are they talking that way?
36:53
SPEAKER_04: Why are they behaving that way?
36:55
SPEAKER_04: It the explanation is they're going through deep grief.
36:59
SPEAKER_04: I thought that was pretty interesting.
37:01
SPEAKER_01: I think it's always dangerous to compare.
37:03
SPEAKER_01: It's always dangerous to read a book on grief and then track yourself.
37:07
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I'm at stage three, or I'm here, or I'm there.
37:10
SPEAKER_01: There's no book is gonna describe your journey.
37:14
SPEAKER_01: Now, general factors, parameters, yeah, but but please don't, you know, read a book on five stages of grief.
37:23
SPEAKER_01: And oh, I I gosh, I'm I think I'm in two, but I'm transitioning.
37:27
SPEAKER_01: I mean, don't do that.
37:28
SPEAKER_01: And and another thing I'd say so I don't forget it is to some degree, you're gonna process grief the way you process everything.
37:35
SPEAKER_01: If you're a fast processor, you're gonna try to fast process it.
37:38
SPEAKER_01: If you're a slow processor, you're gonna try to slow process it.
37:41
SPEAKER_01: If you're not a processor, you're not gonna process it.
37:44
SPEAKER_01: Now, that person, you need to find someone who will make you occasionally, again, you gotta be careful.
37:52
SPEAKER_01: In other words, Joey came to me and wanted me to help him process grief.
37:56
SPEAKER_01: I my my caution is I can't make Joey process it at my speed.
38:00
SPEAKER_01: Because I I I like to process stuff, kind of put it on the shelf and kind of deal with it, but not I I'm probably a fast processor when it comes to that.
38:11
SPEAKER_04: But is there but is there a time, and this is going, this is tracking with your thought, is there a time when as someone who really cares about me thinks Joey needs to make some movement here?
38:24
SPEAKER_04: Like, it's been two years.
38:26
SPEAKER_04: Like, is there ever a time that as someone who does look after me and does care about my mental health speaks in those terms of Joey man, this is just unhealthy.
38:38
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, too slow.
38:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
38:40
SPEAKER_01: Several things come to mind though.
38:42
SPEAKER_01: Number one, I like that you said the two-year thing because that would be a definite.
38:47
SPEAKER_01: If someone has not progressed in two years, we got a problem.
38:51
SPEAKER_01: Now, two months, six months.
38:54
SPEAKER_01: There should be changes in the grieving process over time.
38:59
SPEAKER_01: Now, what are they?
39:00
SPEAKER_01: How much, how fast, I don't know.
39:02
SPEAKER_01: Um, but there should be changes.
39:05
SPEAKER_01: But here's an important, important, important thought.
39:07
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of what I said a minute ago.
39:09
SPEAKER_01: You're gonna process grief the way you do everything else.
39:11
SPEAKER_01: Compare their behavior to before the tragedy happened.
39:15
SPEAKER_01: In other words, did you have to kind of nudge Joey to get out and interact in the first place?
39:20
SPEAKER_01: Always, forever.
39:21
SPEAKER_01: Well, then in the grieving process, it's probably gonna be worse, but you're able to say, okay, this isn't that abnormal for Joey.
39:30
SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
39:31
SPEAKER_01: In other words, you're gonna process grief with some similarities to how you've been processing life before the tragedy came.
39:39
SPEAKER_01: So, so you need to be someone who knows the person well enough to kind of make those kinds of comparisons.
39:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I love what you said a while ago, Chip.
39:48
SPEAKER_02: You you I mean, when you talked about not going and reading the five stages or whatever.
39:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
39:52
SPEAKER_02: At the end of the day, grief is not linear.
39:54
SPEAKER_01: No, like that's a great way to put it, yeah.
39:57
SPEAKER_02: And the moment you think you're done with one stage, a month later, you're back there again, right?
40:03
SPEAKER_02: Like something hits that day or something, something you know triggers that day.
40:07
SPEAKER_02: And so you're gonna weave in and out of grief.
40:11
SPEAKER_02: And and and and let's face it, do you and let me let me well let me just ask you this.
40:16
SPEAKER_02: Do you do you ever fully stop grieving the loss of someone that you really loved?
40:22
SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, let me say this, and I'm answering your question, and any, and I think it'll make sense.
40:28
SPEAKER_01: What I what I've kind of trans evolved to is I I I like to think like this Grief is a form of honor.
40:37
SPEAKER_01: When you grieve the loss of someone, you're honoring what who and what they were to you.
40:43
SPEAKER_01: So, yes to what you're saying.
40:48
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, my father, does the my father's value to me has it diminished?
40:55
SPEAKER_01: He's been gone 20 years, but I don't grieve at the same level.
41:00
SPEAKER_01: But every once in a while I might have a moment where I see something like like right here where I live.
41:06
SPEAKER_01: It's a mile, half a mile walk down to the river.
41:09
SPEAKER_01: You got you were there just the other day, Roy.
41:11
SPEAKER_01: Well, there's times I'll walk, Colleen and I'll go for a walk and we'll walk down there.
41:15
SPEAKER_01: Once a month, maybe, it'll hit me.
41:18
SPEAKER_01: My father would have loved this.
41:22
SPEAKER_01: He would have loved it.
41:23
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I can't even think of the words.
41:25
SPEAKER_01: My father would have gone pure crazy to know that I was living in a place like this.
41:31
SPEAKER_01: Because he loved the water, he loved fishing, he loved whatever.
41:34
SPEAKER_01: So there's every once in a while that, and all it does is it brings, I wouldn't even call it a sense of loss anymore.
41:40
SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, it's a sense of loss that I wish I could share the moment with him.
41:44
SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
41:46
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
41:47
SPEAKER_01: Now, we're talking about grief, so let's get back closer to the event.
41:51
SPEAKER_01: It's cruel.
41:52
SPEAKER_01: Again, it's a form of honor, so it's wonderful.
41:55
SPEAKER_01: I'm a little weird about this one.
41:57
SPEAKER_01: I don't think it's something to be run from or be in a hurry to end it.
42:02
SPEAKER_01: Again, it's it's a form of honor.
42:04
SPEAKER_01: It's a way of saying to that person, to God, to whoever, you know, God, thank you for the time I had with this person.
42:11
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for the impact they had on my life.
42:13
SPEAKER_01: It's the price you pay for love.
42:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
42:15
SPEAKER_04: I mean, once you say it's the price that you're gonna love, you're gonna grieve.
42:18
SPEAKER_01: That's a good that's great, Joey.
42:20
SPEAKER_01: That's great.
42:20
SPEAKER_01: We could we could drop the mic.
42:22
SPEAKER_04: Well, I I'll I'll say this.
42:24
SPEAKER_04: I did a pretty decent job doing a funeral a couple of weeks ago, and I didn't say those words, but the guy who was in charge of the funeral home and leading everything, he came up to me and he said, Man, you communicated so clearly that grief is the price for love.
42:41
SPEAKER_04: And so I was like, Wow.
42:42
SPEAKER_04: But I didn't I didn't say that.
42:45
SPEAKER_04: You just nailed it, sir.
42:46
SPEAKER_01: You could you can translate that into this, Joey.
42:49
SPEAKER_01: If you don't want to ever grieve, don't love.
42:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
42:52
SPEAKER_01: But if you want to love, you better get ready for some grief.
42:56
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
42:57
SPEAKER_02: When you've loved well, it should hurt.
43:00
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
43:00
SPEAKER_02: Right?
43:01
SPEAKER_02: Or or you're just in denial.
43:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
43:03
SPEAKER_01: Uh I mean I read something and it quoted I'm gonna butcher the quote a little bit, but it was something like good marriages never end well.
43:12
SPEAKER_01: And what you understand what he means?
43:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
43:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that makes sense.
43:15
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
43:16
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
43:16
SPEAKER_01: And I said that to Colleen and she about got depressed.
43:22
SPEAKER_01: Because somebody's gonna somebody's gotta say goodbye to somebody.
43:25
SPEAKER_01: Let's remember that there will be people listening that have lost a child, that have in untimely ways, parent, spouse, you know, sibling.
43:37
SPEAKER_01: And again, we're talking in kind of a little bit kind of frothy terms.
43:43
SPEAKER_01: That's probably not the right word.
43:44
SPEAKER_01: There's no two ways about it.
43:45
SPEAKER_01: It's a gut punch.
43:46
SPEAKER_01: I would almost say a sub rational, and subrational is irrational, but I use the word sub because it's it's deeper than rational thinking.
43:57
SPEAKER_01: And what we try to do is alleviate the grieving by rational thinking.
44:03
SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
44:04
SPEAKER_01: We try to say, we try to figure it out.
44:07
SPEAKER_01: Like you'll find people that have had a had a an abrupt, tragic event, and and and Christians are probably the worst at this.
44:15
SPEAKER_01: We want to we want to explain it.
44:17
SPEAKER_01: Well, God, this, and you know, probably this, and well, he probably was, you know, and it's like, you know, stop, just stop.
44:27
SPEAKER_01: Your head cannot touch what you're feeling.
44:31
SPEAKER_01: Don't try to rationalize your way through it.
44:34
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like when I was going into surgery, I think I may have said this.
44:37
SPEAKER_01: Uh everybody, you know, everybody's excited, oh, I'm gonna get new lungs.
44:40
SPEAKER_01: You know what I'm thinking?
44:42
SPEAKER_01: I'm about to get into my chest cut open.
44:44
SPEAKER_01: And I'm about to experience some pain.
44:47
SPEAKER_01: And afterwards, my kids are all excited.
44:49
SPEAKER_01: The surgery went great, whatever.
44:51
SPEAKER_01: We're in celebration mode.
44:52
SPEAKER_01: I said, Well, I'm not.
44:54
SPEAKER_01: I'm not in celebration mode yet.
44:56
SPEAKER_01: I'm hurting.
44:57
SPEAKER_01: And so you gotta.
44:59
SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
45:00
SPEAKER_04: Oh yeah.
45:01
SPEAKER_04: Oh yeah.
45:02
SPEAKER_01: And and I don't care how empathic or empathetic you think you are, you cannot connect to what they're feeling.
45:10
SPEAKER_01: You cannot.
45:12
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, be there.
45:13
SPEAKER_04: Even if you have experienced grief, because grief is going to be different for every person.
45:19
SPEAKER_04: Well, your relationship was different.
45:20
SPEAKER_01: Right.
45:21
SPEAKER_01: Right.
45:21
SPEAKER_01: Just take your statement.
45:23
SPEAKER_01: Grief's the pro the cost of love.
45:25
SPEAKER_01: Your love's different.
45:26
SPEAKER_01: Your love's different for different people.
45:27
SPEAKER_01: Your grief's going to be different for different people.
45:29
SPEAKER_01: So don't play those games like, oh, I know exactly what you're feeling.
45:33
SPEAKER_01: When somebody says that I want to I want to poke them in the eye and say, shut up.
45:36
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
45:37
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
45:38
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
45:39
SPEAKER_04: I like I said, I asked my therapist a bunch of questions on grief today, and she she pointed out something that I just thought was like, wow, I did not think of that, or I actually didn't know.
45:50
SPEAKER_04: But you go back in time, and I think it stems in or the roots are in Europe, but then it was like this in America too, where it was just accepted that when a woman lost her husband and and became a widow, you just assume she's she's gonna be far from 100% for a year, a whole year.
46:14
SPEAKER_04: Now, obviously, that was a different era where she wasn't uh typically wasn't working, but she would wear all black, and everybody knew she is in mourning, she's not a hundred percent, she's not acting normal, you can't expect the same things a year, and now I think the standard is you get three days off, regardless of what your loss is.
46:36
SPEAKER_04: Those that's the allotment, you know.
46:38
SPEAKER_04: So it's just I think we may have done grief better back in the day.
46:43
SPEAKER_04: So, how would you caution someone who really cares about their loved one?
46:50
SPEAKER_04: They don't understand grief and they want to be helpful.
46:54
SPEAKER_04: Well, is there ever a time where someone who's not a therapist and not an expert with this kind of stuff should nudge the person in a way of, come on, you gotta take some steps forward, you gotta go see a therapist.
47:08
SPEAKER_04: Uh, you know, I'm I'm trying to encourage you to do something because you've been stuck for so long.
47:13
SPEAKER_04: Like, would you just say practice caution if if you really don't know what you're saying?
47:19
SPEAKER_04: I'll give you an example.
47:20
SPEAKER_04: I know a couple who are grieving the loss of their child early on in the process, their own family.
47:28
SPEAKER_04: It just got to a point where they were too uncomfortable to be around, like their family was uncomfortable to be around their family who was grieving because they wanted the grieving parents to snap out of it.
47:40
SPEAKER_04: Hey, we're we're together for the holidays.
47:42
SPEAKER_04: Come on, y'all.
47:43
SPEAKER_04: Like, don't don't bring this down.
47:45
SPEAKER_04: We we're celebrating here.
47:47
SPEAKER_04: So it's almost like we want you guys around if you fit within the vibe of what we're doing.
47:53
SPEAKER_01: And that's part of what makes the grieving process complicated.
47:56
SPEAKER_01: That the people around us create conditions and environments.
47:59
SPEAKER_01: We react to them, they react to us.
48:02
SPEAKER_01: It causes, in a sense, it causes trauma in our relationships.
48:06
SPEAKER_01: You know, imagine that family just said, Well, we don't want to be around you.
48:09
SPEAKER_01: Well, now you just traumatized them again.
48:11
SPEAKER_01: Now, to your basic question, I would say I've seen the, you know, you know, you gotta move on, abused way more than used well.
48:21
SPEAKER_04: That makes sense, yeah.
48:23
SPEAKER_01: I mean, way, way.
48:24
SPEAKER_01: I'm talking like 10 to 1.
48:26
SPEAKER_01: But here's the problem: it's it's rooted in selfishness, not love.
48:31
SPEAKER_01: I I want you to move on so I can have fun with you again, or you're pleasant to be around.
48:38
SPEAKER_01: In other words, rarely is it being done from a posture of uh this is not healthy for you, blah, blah, blah.
48:46
SPEAKER_01: Number one, you don't know.
48:48
SPEAKER_01: So, how would I answer the question yes or no?
48:51
SPEAKER_01: I would say assume it's not right.
48:54
SPEAKER_01: It's always good to try to use questions because questions make them come up with answers.
49:00
SPEAKER_01: And it's, you know, hey, uh, how do you feel like your activity level is?
49:04
SPEAKER_01: Now, they may be sharp enough to know what you're doing, but you're not doing it.
49:08
SPEAKER_01: You're not in their face saying, get off your butt.
49:12
SPEAKER_01: You're you they know you're watching them and you care enough to say, hey, um, how are you eating?
49:18
SPEAKER_01: You eating okay?
49:20
SPEAKER_01: But I guess what's buried in my answer, Joey, is be really, really careful with that.
49:24
SPEAKER_01: Because nine times out of ten, it's selfishly motivated.
49:28
SPEAKER_01: It really is.
49:29
SPEAKER_01: You gotta be careful with that.
49:31
SPEAKER_01: So what you could do is is you know refer to a professional.
49:35
SPEAKER_01: I think everybody, everybody, everybody that experiences significant trauma should see a counselor.
49:41
SPEAKER_01: I don't even I don't mean every week, necessarily, maybe.
49:45
SPEAKER_01: You just need someone up on the outside to tell you you're connecting the dots correctly.
49:52
SPEAKER_01: Because you won't.
49:53
SPEAKER_01: You'll you'll connect this to this, and it'll make sense to you.
49:57
SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, these two are connected.
49:59
SPEAKER_01: A therapist can help you say, you know, you you're really that that's not connected.
50:05
SPEAKER_01: That's connected to this, not that.
50:08
SPEAKER_01: And there's a lot of growth opportunity buried in grief.
50:10
SPEAKER_01: Not in the first few months.
50:11
SPEAKER_01: A lot of times, Joey, grieving for someone, and don't take this too far, anybody, grieving eventually translates into you really you you discovering the unhealthiness of the relationship.
50:27
SPEAKER_01: Interesting, yeah.
50:28
SPEAKER_02: Which only adds to the grief, right?
50:30
SPEAKER_01: Most of the time, probably.
50:32
SPEAKER_01: Unless you unless someone like us that talk this way, think this way, can can help them see a growth opportunity in it.
50:41
SPEAKER_02: Because I mean, if I understand what you're saying, if I understood that that comment correctly, because because I was thinking about this earlier, like the level with which are or the way in which people grieve, I mean, there's so many variables, but part of it is is the nature of their relationship with the person that they lost.
50:58
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
50:59
SPEAKER_02: And so when when when they have lost someone that things weren't well and that that there were things left unsaid or that there were regrets, that makes the grief even even I hate to say well, uh worse or just different.
51:14
SPEAKER_02: It's a different type of grief when you're grieving those things.
51:17
SPEAKER_01: Well, and that's kind of what I meant a minute ago.
51:19
SPEAKER_01: While you need to talk to a therapist, you you may think what you're feeling is this mountain of grief over the loss of this person when you talk to somebody and you find out some of it is regret over a conversation you wished you had.
51:35
SPEAKER_01: Now, that's not grief in its purest form.
51:37
SPEAKER_01: That's that's regret, not grief.
51:40
SPEAKER_01: Those are two different things.
51:43
SPEAKER_01: So you're gonna need help figuring that out.
51:46
SPEAKER_01: Like one of the reasons my my dad's passing was not it was it was joyous.
51:51
SPEAKER_01: Number one, I'd prayed with him to receive the Lord.
51:54
SPEAKER_01: And number two, um our our relationship was not where it could have been ever, but it was on the incline.
52:03
SPEAKER_01: And and we were having better moments and and some really cool ones.
52:08
SPEAKER_01: But still, I I you know I still regret that I didn't have the relationship with my dad that a son should.
52:15
SPEAKER_01: But I I know he did the best he could.
52:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
52:19
SPEAKER_01: But you're right.
52:20
SPEAKER_01: And and I I don't know that I've ever thought that before.
52:23
SPEAKER_01: That simple thing of you gotta one of the differentiations you gotta make is from grief and uh regret.
52:30
SPEAKER_01: Because though those two will sneak together real fast.
52:33
SPEAKER_01: Real fast.
52:34
SPEAKER_01: That's good.
52:35
SPEAKER_04: My last question has to do with that organ and all of our heads.
52:40
SPEAKER_04: You you you guys are well aware that I need regular medicine just on the just on the reg.
52:47
SPEAKER_04: And I'm a uh, you know, I would say I'm very healthy.
52:50
SPEAKER_04: You're doing great, Joey.
52:51
SPEAKER_04: What's that?
52:52
SPEAKER_04: Doing great.
52:53
SPEAKER_04: You're doing great, man.
52:54
SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
52:54
SPEAKER_04: Like I I really do feel like I have had the longest term health ever in my life.
53:02
SPEAKER_04: So that's that and and I learned the hard way that I don't need to get off medicine.
53:07
SPEAKER_04: There are people who have a loss that get on Paxel, for instance, temporarily and then they don't need it for good.
53:16
SPEAKER_04: What's going on in the brain?
53:18
SPEAKER_04: Does the brain get imbalanced because of a loss in the same way my brain is always imbalanced if I don't have medication?
53:25
SPEAKER_04: Like, why do some people need to get on medication temporarily while they're grieving?
53:29
SPEAKER_04: Because the brain's acting up that moment.
53:32
SPEAKER_01: All right, Joe, are you ready to get me in trouble?
53:35
SPEAKER_01: They don't let me let me rephrase what you just said.
53:39
SPEAKER_01: You you said they need to get on medication.
53:44
SPEAKER_01: No, they choose to get on medication.
53:48
SPEAKER_01: I did not know that it was as prevalent as it is, and I'm really not happy with it that when people suffer trauma, doctors throw pills at it.
53:58
SPEAKER_02: And this is coming from somebody who is all for, again, we we know that.
54:02
SPEAKER_02: Somebody who's all for medicine, all for Chip would kill me if I got off medicine, put it that way.
54:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
54:09
SPEAKER_01: I'd be done with you.
54:10
SPEAKER_01: I would wash my hands, I would go help Priscilla and the kids move out.
54:16
SPEAKER_01: Or Roy and I would come carry you physically out and throw your clothes out the window.
54:21
SPEAKER_01: No, here's the deal, man.
54:23
SPEAKER_04: Uh Wow, that's so interesting.
54:25
SPEAKER_01: I mean, think about what it is, Joey.
54:27
SPEAKER_01: You're you're taking a natural we look at all we've been saying.
54:30
SPEAKER_01: Grief's a form of honor.
54:31
SPEAKER_01: So you're gonna shut it off?
54:33
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, wow.
54:34
SPEAKER_01: You're just gonna turn it off.
54:35
SPEAKER_01: Well, I just don't want to feel that.
54:37
SPEAKER_01: Well, screw my wife.
54:39
SPEAKER_01: She's gone, but I don't want to feel bad.
54:42
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
54:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
54:43
SPEAKER_04: I'm sorry, but I do.
54:45
SPEAKER_04: So how my brain in in quotes misbehave.
54:49
SPEAKER_01: All right, all right, hold on, hold on, hold on.
54:50
SPEAKER_01: If they didn't need a pill before the trauma, they don't need it afterwards unless, unless the trauma has triggered some sort of uh psychological, physiological condition.
55:03
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
55:03
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that clears it up.
55:05
SPEAKER_01: Grief as a reason to take psychotropic drugs, I'm sorry, I'm just not on board with that.
55:14
SPEAKER_01: Now, a parent loses a child tragically, sleep, medication, some form of mild damper, I can live with that.
55:27
SPEAKER_01: But very, very limited and very, very intentional to just help the person function while we're headed toward clear-headed processing what happened.
55:42
SPEAKER_01: I remember the first time I encountered this.
55:44
SPEAKER_01: I, you know, I'm cruising along, counseling this family who had a genuine, horrible car accident, lost the mom, all the all the whole family was in the cars, horrible, horrible, horrible.
55:56
SPEAKER_01: We'd worked for months, this is years back, and stupid me, this the thought of what we're talking about never occurred to me.
56:06
SPEAKER_01: So here we are winding up because they're doing so well.
56:08
SPEAKER_01: And I say, Well, blah, blah, blah, you know, I think we're getting to where you know you guys are doing pretty well.
56:14
SPEAKER_01: And one of the kids says, Well, it's because of those pills we take.
56:18
SPEAKER_01: And I said, What?
56:21
SPEAKER_01: I find out they've been on drugs the whole time.
56:25
SPEAKER_01: And I'm thinking, we've been trying to help them deal with trauma and the grief that comes with it, and they've never felt any of it.
56:33
SPEAKER_04: Gosh.
56:35
SPEAKER_04: Does it numb it that much?
56:36
SPEAKER_04: See, I just thought it would it it helped you through it.
56:39
SPEAKER_04: You're you're talking like it's a good thing.
56:40
SPEAKER_01: What do you think it's doing?
56:42
SPEAKER_01: All right, just pretend we hadn't even to talk.
56:46
SPEAKER_01: What what do you think that drug's doing, Joey?
56:50
SPEAKER_04: Well, I can be situation the only thing that I can go off of is my experience.
56:55
SPEAKER_04: I can be situationally sad on my medication.
56:58
SPEAKER_04: I can have a sad day.
56:59
SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
57:00
SPEAKER_01: So probably for a good reason.
57:05
SPEAKER_04: So it seems like even if you were on medication, if you had that sort of loss, you'd still be sad.
57:11
SPEAKER_04: I didn't I didn't think it would completely numb it.
57:14
SPEAKER_04: So why are you taking it?
57:17
SPEAKER_04: To to help you survive, help the pain not before.
57:21
SPEAKER_01: So what is it do?
57:22
SPEAKER_01: So what is it doing with the pain?
57:24
SPEAKER_04: Minimally numbing it.
57:30
SPEAKER_04: Wow.
57:31
SPEAKER_04: I did not expect that answer.
57:32
SPEAKER_04: That is that is very informing.
57:35
SPEAKER_01: Don't anybody don't anybody listen to this and say it's always wrong, blah, blah, blah.
57:40
SPEAKER_01: I don't know your circumstances.
57:41
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
57:42
SPEAKER_01: Let me say it this way.
57:43
SPEAKER_01: I think we, because of where we're at technologically, financially, as a culture, we've just kind of written suffering off.
57:51
SPEAKER_03: Wow.
57:52
SPEAKER_01: We're not supposed to experience pain.
57:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
57:55
SPEAKER_01: And I think we're cheating ourselves, and we're cheating God, and we're cheating our loved ones, and we're cheating the true development of our soul.
58:04
SPEAKER_01: Because part of the development of our soul is the enriching that comes from loss.
58:09
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
58:10
SPEAKER_04: Alright, well, I gotta pick up my kids for a doctor's appointment.
58:13
SPEAKER_02: Hey Chip, do you want to and do you want to tell Joey what you told me in the hospital that that when I came in right after your surgery when we were together, you you shared with me that I was your favorite.
58:23
SPEAKER_02: Remember what you said to me?
58:24
SPEAKER_02: Do you remember how you phrased it?
58:25
SPEAKER_02: It was something like you're my favorite spiritual son, or something like that.
58:30
SPEAKER_01: But I think I remember saying that I'm on drugs and don't don't take this to the bank.
58:37
SPEAKER_04: Hey, hey, he he was on drugs and he thought you were me.