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The power of colour with Milli Abrams · Why I Knit

0:02
Mia Hobbs: Hello, and welcome back to series two of the Why I
0:05
Knit podcast. My name is Dr. Mia Hobbs and I'm a clinical
0:08
psychologist who's passionate about knitting and its benefits
0:11
for our mental wellbeing. Each episode I interview a different
0:15
knitter about why they knit and how it benefits their mental
0:18
health. This week on the podcast, I'm joined by Milli
0:22
Abrams, who is the owner of Tribe Yarns, a yarn shop in
0:27
Richmond, London. Milli has a qualification in Applied Colour
0:31
Psychology so I particularly wanted to ask her more about
0:34
this and about how colour can impact on mental health.
0:37
Unfortunately, there is a crackle on Milli's end of the
0:40
audio, which we were unable to resolve while we were recording.
0:43
However, Milli is such an inspiring and interesting guest
0:46
that I'm sure you'll still really enjoy this interview.
0:54
Hi Milli, welcome to the podcast.
0:56
Milli Abrams: Hello.
0:58
Mia Hobbs: I always start by asking where your story with
1:01
knitting began.
1:03
Milli Abrams: Okay, that's a relatively easy one, I guess. I
1:06
was about six or seven years old when I started knitting. My mum
1:11
used to knit and she introduced it to me over a summer holiday
1:17
and I pretty much got addicted straightaway. And I was the sort
1:21
of child that never really sat down. You know, I was always a
1:25
bit ants-in-my-pants, climbing trees and that kind of thing.
1:29
And so I guess it was as much of a surprise to her as it was to
1:34
me that I loved it. And I got obsessed and I ended up blowing
1:38
out all of my playdates with friends outside. I was like,
1:42
"No, I'm at home knitting." I was determined to get it done.
1:45
Mia Hobbs: Oh wow! So you absolutely went with it straight
1:48
away.
1:48
Milli Abrams: Yes, straight away. And to begin with, at
1:51
least for the first year, I don't think I could purl at all.
1:55
I could only knit. But I really liked stocking stitch. So I
1:58
would knit a whole line and then I'd give it to my mom to purl
2:02
back. [Laughs] I did eventually get the hang of purling but I
2:07
could only do it then for the next little while standing up at
2:10
the ironing board, for some reason. I was using crappy
2:12
straight needles back then. You know how we had those awful sort
2:16
of Aero needles that weighed a little bit too much, I guess.
2:19
For my little hands they were quite long, with blunt tips. And
2:22
I used to knit way too tight, like really tightly. So I used
2:26
to have to use the ironing board to jam the needle into the
2:29
stitch.
2:29
Mia Hobbs: Oh wow! Yeah, I actually had one of the kids in
2:34
the therapeutic knitting group I've been running say to me,
2:38
"It's really surprising that grannies knit because you need
2:40
so much strength to get this to fit!" . And I thought, "I think
2:45
someone's going slightly wrong here, because I don't feel like
2:47
I'm using muscles to knit, particularly!" [Laughs]
2:50
Milli Abrams: No! And then back then (that would have been in
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the early 80s) we all knit with crappy acrylic wools, so it was
2:57
really strong.
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Mia Hobbs: Oh yeah, it's hard to break. It's harder than wool.
3:02
Milli Abrams: Exactly. If I'd have started with a proper wool,
3:08
had I been knitting with the tightness and the strength that
3:11
I was applying to that acrylic, it would have broken right away,
3:14
and I would have realised that it was too tight. But I got away
3:17
with it back then.
3:20
Mia Hobbs: Okay. And what do you think hooked you in? Because it
3:25
sounds like it was a bit of a surprise, if you were quite an
3:27
active kid, that you could sit still and knit?
3:31
Milli Abrams: Yeah, it was definitely the challenge of it.
3:37
But I did feel it was very calming, the repetitive
3:40
stitches, and there was something about making and
3:43
creating, and then being able to make your own creative choices.
3:49
It was a bit like Lego, where you could sort of go your own
3:54
way with it, and you could spend hours and hours and hours doing
3:57
it and it just felt good. So yeah, I think it was that, and
4:01
then RIGHT away I started knitting colourwork and intarsia
4:07
and that kind of thing, because that was very early 80s.
4:12
Mia Hobbs: That's what I wondered: whether you were
4:13
knitting from patterns or whether you were just kind of
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knitting scarves.
4:18
Milli Abrams: Both. No, I never did scarves in the beginning. I
4:22
just did lots of patches of things. And then I made stuff
4:27
for dolls, you know, just little things.
4:31
Mia Hobbs: Did you kind of make those up as you went along
4:33
rather than finding a pattern for them?
4:35
Milli Abrams: A little bit, yeah. So I might have had a
4:35
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, sure. I guess a lot of us learn a lot of how to
4:37
pattern that had a chart for some sort of fair isle motif and
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I would have just used that to make some random little thing
4:45
for a doll or a teddy bear jumper or something. I didn't
4:48
play with teddy bears or anything back then, but I just
4:52
wanted to make little things. And I don't think I had enough
4:55
yarn to make a big sweater. Then eventually my mum took me to
4:59
John Lewis and we picked out a pattern, and that was the
5:03
patchwork intarsia and fair isle cardigan. It was very
5:06
complicated. But I decided I was going to make that. And then by
5:10
the time I'd finished it, I could barely get it on. Because
5:14
I was such a tight knitter, it was so small. [Laughs] And I
5:17
hadn't appreciated that you had to leave a long enough end to
5:21
darn the ends in. So they'd started to pull out, so I
5:25
superglued them down, which made it really jabby inside. It was
5:28
terrible! It's a horrible little thing. But my mum never knit
5:32
intarsia or colourwork. She just used to do plain knitting and
5:36
maybe a few cables. So she couldn't really advise me on
5:40
that. That was a learning process!
5:46
solve problems in knitting through trial and error.
5:49
Milli Abrams: Yeah, and back then there wasn't any social
5:51
media or any pressure like that. It's not as though we were
5:54
comparing ourselves to each other. And no-one I knew knit.
5:57
So it was perfectly fine for me to keep making all these
6:01
mistakes and not feel like a total failure. It was just
6:03
learning.
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Mia Hobbs: But I think also now, if you knew what the mistake was
6:08
called, you could search on YouTube as to how to fix it, I
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suppose. Like when I have a plumbing issue that I feel might
6:16
be within my beginner's realm. So you know, a bit like that if
6:20
you were a beginner knitter, whereas that didn't exist.
6:22
Milli Abrams: No. And I'd definitely say that there is so
6:25
much more help. You could Google everything now, with plumbing
6:29
and everything. And back then I think we did used to do a bit
6:33
more trial and error. It was either that or spend hours and
6:37
hours at the library researching something. We used to just try
6:41
it, didn't we? With lots of things.
6:44
Mia Hobbs: Okay, so did you carry on knitting? So you've
6:46
knit fairly regularly since you were six or seven?
6:51
Milli Abrams: Yeah, so that would have been 40 years ago.
6:55
But no, I definitely had breaks. So there were the chaotic
7:00
teenage years when I had exams and things, when I just probably
7:05
wouldn't have had time. And yeah, there were times in my
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life where I definitely let it go for maybe two or three years
7:12
at a time. And they were probably the times when I
7:15
shouldn't have let it go and should have made time. You know,
7:18
it's always the way, isn't it, when you feel like you haven't
7:20
got time to meditate, that's when you should be meditating.
7:23
It's the same with knitting. And then I picked it up again, like
7:28
PROPERLY properly, when I was pregnant with Indy. He's 18 now,
7:33
so that was 18 years ago. And knit every morning before I got
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out of bed. I used to get morning sickness, so Darren
7:39
would bring me breakfast in bed every morning and I would sit
7:41
and knit while he was making breakfast.
7:44
Mia Hobbs: Were you knitting for Indy?
7:45
Milli Abrams: Yeah, I was knitting booties. Lots of
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booties. I had this amazing book of like, I don't know, 100
7:51
bootie patterns, but it had lots of different techniques in it.
7:54
Mia Hobbs: Oh no! Have you gifted them?
7:54
So I was learning something every day with a new knitting
7:57
technique, and I was getting to use different colour yarns and
8:01
different fibres. I had a whole bag of them and just worked my
8:05
way through. I don't know how many booties I made. I must have
8:08
made 30 or 40 pairs of different booties while I was pregnant
8:12
with him, and I made a big patchwork blanket. But then when
8:15
he was born, he had enormous feet and he didn't fit any of
8:18
the booties.
8:21
Milli Abrams: I gifted all of them and they all fit normal
8:23
babies. Indy had giant feet! And only the giant duck feet fit
8:28
him. [Laughs]
8:30
Mia Hobbs: Aw! I found that I couldn't get booties to stay on
8:33
my children!
8:34
Milli Abrams: No, they didn't all, which is kind of why I made
8:37
them all. Some of them were really good patterns that stayed
8:39
on and the others just were sort of there for photos, I suppose.
8:42
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. Oh, that's amazing. So it's been on and
8:46
off, but mainly on, certainly on for the last 18 years.
8:54
Milli Abrams: Yeah. So when Indy was born, we then emigrated to
8:56
Canada when he was eight months old. And it was really cold
8:59
there, so I knit lots. And then when he was seven, we moved on
9:03
to the boat to go circumnavigate, and I did knit
9:07
on the boat as well. Probably not as much.... no maybe I did.
9:12
I did, but like different fibres. A lot of silk and cotton
9:14
because it's hot. And then we moved to the Caribbean for five
9:19
years, and I knit there as well, but lots of lace weight blankets
9:22
and that kind of thing.
9:23
Mia Hobbs: Okay. Did you feel like the motivation was less? Or
9:26
is it not really so much about the final product?
9:30
Milli Abrams: It's never been about the final product for me.
9:32
It''s never ever been about the final product. I for my whole
9:35
life have knit things and then just given them away, almost
9:39
immediately. I don't tend to keep any of my knits for myself.
9:45
Mia Hobbs: Is it more for the process? Because obviously there
9:47
is a joy to giving things to people for the point of giving a
9:52
gift, that is more meaningful, but it sounds also a lot of it's
9:55
about the process for you.
9:56
Milli Abrams: It's the process. It's completely the process,
9:59
yeah.
9:59
Mia Hobbs: If you were on a desert island with one ball of
10:02
brown yarn that you had to re-knit over and over again,
10:04
you'd be knitting it.
10:05
Milli Abrams: Absolutely. And I had to do that in the Caribbean
10:08
all the time, because we couldn't get anything shipped to
10:10
us. And it would take months and months. So I would just knit
10:13
something, rip it out, knit it again. I did that all the time.
10:17
So it is very much process.
10:19
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. And does it matter what you knit? As in the
10:25
techniques? Is garter stitch equally valuable to knitting
10:31
lace or cables? Or does it matter?
10:36
Milli Abrams: I think it depends. It's got to be
10:38
something new for me every time. So I very rarely, I think never,
10:42
make the second sock, because I've made the sock and I don't
10:45
want to make another one. So I almost never make the same thing
10:48
twice, unless I'm changing the technique or changing something
10:52
up about it. I recently knit two Badger & Bloom sweaters where I
10:54
changed the technique quite a lot both times, just to test it
10:58
out.
10:59
Mia Hobbs: And the colour isn't enough of a change?
11:02
Milli Abrams: No, it's not really. I knit for colour... A
11:06
lot of the time, it's because of the colour I want to hang out
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with, so that will determine what I'm knitting. But it's got
11:12
to be something new that I haven't experienced before. It
11:15
might be that I have to experience a new fibre. Yeah, I
11:18
think it's technique more than anything, though. And it's
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weird, after 40 years of doing lots of knitting and learning
11:25
all the [inaudible], I'm still discovering new techniques all
11:28
the time, which is brilliant. I think that's such a cool thing
11:30
about knitting.
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Mia Hobbs: Yeah, you can't ever run out.
11:34
Milli Abrams: No, you can't really. And I do knit things
11:38
several times and rip them out, but I've just started a cardigan
11:40
yesterday which I will rip out today and start again, because
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there's a couple of things I thought of during the night that
11:45
I should have done differently. So yeah, I'm fine with ripping
11:49
out. So about the gifting: yes, I do knit specifically for
11:53
gifts, but no, usually I'm knitting something and then I
11:56
think, "Oh, who'd like this? Who would this fit? Who wants it?".
12:05
Mia Hobbs: Okay. I'd love to hear more about colour, because
12:09
I think you said you've got a qualification in colour...
12:12
Milli Abrams: Applied colour psychology.
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Mia Hobbs: Applied colour psychology. So I'd love to hear
12:16
about that, and your ideas about colour and how it benefits your
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mental wellbeing, being around colour. I like the idea of
12:25
choosing a colour you want to hang out with! Because I think I
12:28
do that with my knitting projects. I have quite a long
12:30
relationship with them because I'm not that fast. [Laughs]
12:34
Milli Abrams: Colour is very, very important. I didn't know
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anything about... I'm an accountant so it wasn't anything
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that I'd studied in the early days, but I have an Indian
12:46
background so we've always been very experimentative with
12:50
colour, with our saris and things. And approaching my 40s,
12:54
I suppose... late 30s/40s... I got a bit frustrated with how
12:59
sensible people were being around colour and how coy they
13:02
Would you do that historically, as well, when you didn't work in
13:03
were, and how they were embarrassed about using certain
13:07
colours, and that kind of thing. If you walked down the high
13:11
street a couple of years ago, all you'd see was grey, khaki,
13:16
maybe a little bit of mustard. I couldn't buy the colours that I
13:20
wanted from a shop, so I did use knitting to introduce those
13:25
colours into my life. But I also realised a long time ago that
13:29
certain colours do certain things to my mood, and I can use
13:34
that to my advantage. So when I use really, really saturated
13:38
bright colours, they will wake me up, so I can use them in the
13:42
morning to just really get going, or before a meeting to
13:47
get energised, or something like that. Especially during
13:51
meetings. So I knit through all my board meetings and things. I
13:55
would always knit and I'd always pick a bright colour for that
14:00
because it just energised me.
14:06
yarn and knitting?
14:08
Yeah, absolutely.
14:09
Mia Hobbs: And I'm guessing you were the only person doing that!
14:12
Milli Abrams: Yeah, I was the only person knitting. And it was
14:15
fine. It wasn't fine, right at the beginning when I was a
14:19
junior. I'd get told off. But as I became more senior, I could
14:25
tell people that it actually helped me focus and they all got
14:28
used to it. So I'd sit in a meeting with Branson or whatever
14:30
and I'd always be knitting. But I also conversely couldn't pick
14:35
up those same colours and knit with them right before bed. I
14:39
always knit right before bed, but I can't knit the really
14:41
really bright colours under a fairly bright light because they
14:45
wake me up and they don't allow me to sort of gently ease down
14:49
at the end of the day.
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Mia Hobbs: So you need more than one project on the go for
14:53
different situations.
14:56
Milli Abrams: Yes. Different for colour but also different for
15:00
"Do I really want to escape into a very challenging pattern with
15:03
lots of charts and things because I need to just not think
15:07
about everything right now? Or do I just want something that is
15:10
in my hands, and TV knitting, so that I can listen to whatever
15:13
I'm listening to?"
15:15
Mia Hobbs: That's a really common theme that has come up
15:17
again and again, and certainly something I relate very strongly
15:20
to. The idea of having to have something complicated to absorb
15:24
yourself in when you need to escape from real life, or
15:27
something that you could knit while you're listening to your
15:30
kids read, that doesn't require any of your brain. And I
15:33
certainly would knit through Zoom meetings and training
15:39
courses, and have never been anything other than the only
15:43
knitter. [Laughs]
15:45
Milli Abrams: Yeah, it is weird, isn't it? I found when Indy was
15:50
little, you know, when your kids are little and you have to wait
15:52
all the time, you've got to wait for them to finish a sports
15:56
match or whatever, there's just a lot of waiting in life.
15:59
Waiting at the dentist and all these things. And I just found
16:02
that if I always had my knitting, I never really minded
16:04
the wait. Actually, I quite liked the wait. It was a really
16:07
good time for me to just get into my knitting. And I travel a
16:12
lot and airport delays were pleasurable, because I had my
16:17
knitting with me. And it just meant that I could chill out and
16:19
knit, and it didn't matter that the planes was delayed. I don't
16:24
know how people that don't knit cope, I honestly don't! I just
16:27
don't know how they manage to wait for anything.
16:30
Mia Hobbs: I do feel a slight anxiety, I think, if I have to
16:34
do something like that, that I don't have my knitting with me
16:40
because I've had too many things to think about and it's just not
16:43
made it in the bag. But quite often, if I'm going away for a
16:46
weekend and getting a train somewhere... The other weekend,
16:49
I forgot the dress I was planning to wear out in the
16:51
evening, but I had three knitting projects with me.
16:54
[Laughs] Because that was my priority, in my head!
17:00
Milli Abrams: Definitely.
17:02
Mia Hobbs: I don't know whether you learnt about this in the
17:06
course you did, about whether there are particular colours
17:09
that are more associated with positive or negative mood, or
17:13
whether it's not really like that. Whether different people
17:15
have different...
17:17
Milli Abrams: Yeah, it's a really, really interesting
17:19
topic. And it's huge and very deep, so it would take hours to
17:22
go over everything. But I guess the main points were... I'm very
17:29
into maths, maths is my background, and there are
17:36
patterns and wavelengths behind each colour and some colours
17:43
harmonise because of the patterns and the waves, and some
17:48
colours don't. So that was one of the things that we learnt a
17:51
lot about. So, you know, I'm good at putting colours together
17:55
and I'm good at avoiding certain colour combinations that are
17:58
horrible. And I know that intuitively somewhat, I guess,
18:02
from practising a lot, but also because of the maths behind the
18:05
colour. So there's that. There's the colours that people should
18:09
and shouldn't wear... well, it's not really a should... it's the
18:12
colours that suit people more than the colours that don't. So
18:15
that was also part of the course. And that has more to do
18:18
with who you are and your personality, as well as your own
18:22
personal colouring, but a lot more to do with your
18:25
personality. And it's broken into four separate groups. So I
18:28
think recently, companies like House of Colour have taken those
18:35
and called them seasons to try and organise that a little bit
18:38
more. And that's fine. They've done it completely wrong in a
18:41
couple of ways, because they've tried to make it equal across
18:43
the seasons, which is not the case right now, but that's a
18:47
whole 'nother topic. So there's that, and then there's also the
18:51
behavioural aspect of how a colour will influence your mood
18:56
and why you might be drawn to it, and why you might not be
18:58
drawn to it at a particular time. So for example, if you had
19:05
an orange dining plate or were sitting in an orange room while
19:09
you were eating, you probably will eat more. You'll over eat.
19:13
It's just influence. It opens up your mind, and abundance and
19:19
that kind of thing. You just tend to over consume with
19:22
orange. Purple tends to be a colour that is for people that
19:28
are feeling a bit less sociable at that particular time, or very
19:32
much more choosy. It's a colour that people are drawn to when
19:34
they're hungover. It's not all shades of purple, but I'm
19:39
generalising just for now. Red, you know, we're very familiar
19:43
with red being a little bit more aggressive, a bit more in your
19:46
face, just open, just much more bold, And then blue is a really
19:52
great one for focusing. Again, not all blues. So when Indy was
19:57
having exams when he was younger and he used to pick up some
20:00
knitting (he doesn't tend to anymore), then I would have him
20:02
knit with blue yarns as a little break between study sessions,
20:06
because it would keep that part of his brain active but allow
20:11
him to have a little break from studying. So blue was great for
20:17
that. And I will use it. Like I said, if I need to be really
20:27
thinking and thinking spreadsheets and that kind of
20:29
thing, I'll pick up my blue project for a little bit and
20:31
just calm down with that, and then go straight into my
20:35
thinking piece.
20:37
Mia Hobbs: So you're very deliberate about your choices of
20:39
what you're knitting with, to fit the circumstances in your
20:43
life?
20:43
Milli Abrams: I mean, it just happens now. I think what I'm
20:46
deliberate about is making sure that I've got enough projects at
20:49
hand or around. I don't like to have more than three projects on
20:53
the go, because I am someone that likes to finish. I don't
20:56
tend to have lots of WIPs. I like finishing. But I do have
20:59
three that are intentionally quite different from each other
21:02
because of what they will do for my mental health.
21:08
Mia Hobbs: So that sounds very deliberate in that sense. And I
21:10
think I certainly would relate to that: that the things I'm
21:13
working on have to fit different needs for me. But I don't
21:18
actually think about the colour in that way, which is really
21:20
interesting. And actually, when I spoke to Betsan Corkhill, who
21:25
is an expert in therapeutic knitting, she speaks a lot about
21:28
the idea of using knitting to... rather than it reflecting the
21:32
mood you're in, thinking about the mood you want to move
21:35
yourself into. And that sounds very similar to your ethos.
21:39
Milli Abrams: Yeah. And also, with the finished garment, when
21:46
you're wearing it... Like I'll use the colours of the garments
21:50
that I'm wearing to convey a certain type of my personality
21:55
in a public setting, or not. So for example, for my whole life I
22:01
was an accountant; I so much was drawn to what people would refer
22:06
to as the winter colours, like cooler colours, and they do suit
22:08
me, your blacks, your whites, your strong reds, peacocks, that
22:12
kind of thing. And I was always really drawn to that. But it
22:16
does make me much less approachable as a person. So
22:19
when I opened the shop, one of the things that I talked to
22:22
Angela about (who's like the guru of colour therapy), she was
22:24
like, "Well, just make sure that you're never in there wearing
22:27
blacks and whites." So this new business of mine was not like
22:31
accounting; I needed to be approachable and soft. And I
22:33
needed to sort of bring out my more autumn aspects. So I wear a
22:38
lot more rich autumnal colours and navies and that kind of
22:42
thing, which also suit me but I wouldn't have dreamt of wearing
22:47
them as an accountant. I didn't want to be that person in that
22:50
setting, whereas I do now. And then conversely, if I'm going to
22:55
something else where I just want a bit more glamour, I'll wear
22:59
black again.
23:00
Mia Hobbs: I wonder whether that was also to do with... I'm
23:02
guessing you were in a more male-dominated environment when
23:06
you were in business? Or maybe needing to convey more power
23:08
Milli Abrams: Yeah, right in the beginning I was. I mean, I am
23:09
than you do in your yarn shop.
23:13
quite a small woman and I just needed more help with the power
23:18
that I was exuding when I was telling people no, they couldn't
23:20
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, sure. I wonder whether there are other ways
23:24
have that money or whatever it was.
23:33
that we haven't talked about that you feel knitting is
23:36
beneficial for your mental wellbeing.
23:38
Milli Abrams: We get loads of people in the shop that will
23:41
come by and say, "Oh, that's lovely. I wish I could do that,
23:47
but I don't have the patience for that." And I am the least
23:52
patient person I've ever met in my life. I'm just not patient,
23:55
I'm not tolerant. And therefore knitting is even more important
24:03
for me than it would be for someone who already is calm and
24:06
zen and patient. So I think when people say that, I'd love the
24:11
people to know... especially men, I think, because they tend
24:15
to be more the ones that are like, "Oh, I don't have time. I
24:18
work." And the other thing I hear is "I don't have time." I
24:23
don't have time, I work crazy hours, but I still find time for
24:26
knitting. I think it's important to have something, especially in
24:33
this day and age when we are just overstimulated all the
24:38
time. If you could have something like meditating or
24:44
colouring in or knitting, that takes you off your device and
24:48
gives you something repetitive and small, and it is about those
24:52
micro movements, that's where the magic is, releasing the good
24:55
hormones. And with knitting that means not knitting on needles
24:59
that are more than about 5mm. There's a sweet spot with a
25:04
knitting needle to keep it micro, to get the maximum
25:08
benefit with your serotonin. Everyone sort of needs that, I
25:13
think, these days. I've actually lived on a desert island.
25:17
Mia Hobbs: And even then you still brought your knitting!
25:19
Milli Abrams: Yeah, and I would still bring my knitting!
25:22
[Laughs]
25:23
Mia Hobbs: I would too.
25:24
Milli Abrams: I meditate and I have done lots over the years.
25:28
And that comes and goes a lot more than my knitting does,
25:31
because at the end of the day I feel guilty about sitting down
25:34
and doing nothing. I just have that. I don't know what it is,
25:40
but I do feel guilty about that unless I'm knitting. And then
25:43
somewhere in my head, I know I'm creating and relaxing, and then
25:46
I can really let myself be in it and sit and do it for hours,
25:50
which is really important.
25:54
Mia Hobbs: I suppose I've heard quite often the idea that
25:57
knitting is kind of a substitute for meditation, or a form of
26:01
meditation. And several of the people I've spoken to, and
26:04
certainly I think this is probably true of me, have
26:06
classified themselves as failed meditators, therefore they are
26:12
knitters, and they get a kind of similar thing from it. It sounds
26:17
like you've stuck with your knitting maybe more constantly
26:19
than you have with the meditation.
26:20
Milli Abrams: Yeah, definitely. I have stuck with knitting a lot
26:22
more. And I think mainly because it doesn't do the same thing for
26:27
me as meditating. Meditating is definitely much more intense.
26:29
But I think it's more the portability and the
26:34
practicality. So I can still do it at a train station and hear
26:40
when my train is coming and not be completely cut off from the
26:43
world. And when I do meditate, I do it to get to a much deeper
26:50
state, and it takes a lot longer, like two or three hours.
26:55
And it has to be silent, and I can't have the family running
26:58
around. I can't do that as often. I can pick up my knitting
27:05
ten times a day and just have a little meditative break with my
27:09
knitting, so I think that's why I do it a lot more. And these
27:13
days, yarns are SO much nicer than they used to be, and
27:16
patterns are just everywhere and so accessible. It's just so much
27:20
easier to find the right project.
27:23
Mia Hobbs: And in terms of what you're drawn to do you like a
27:27
variety in terms of yarn? Is that also something that floats
27:31
your boat?
27:32
Milli Abrams: Yeah, massively. So I love the super, super
27:35
rustic Icelandics. Absolutely love those. And then I really
27:39
like my super high end silks and cashmeres. It's important to me
27:47
that I know where the yarns come from, and then I know that it's
27:49
ethically made. And it's important to me that it doesn't
27:55
have plastic in it. But other than that, a wide variety and a
28:01
wide variety of gauges. And I do knit with chunky yarns
28:04
sometimes, usually if it's just because I have to make a short
28:07
sample/I have to bang out a gift really quickly. But my sort of
28:11
sweet spot for a needle is about the 3.75 range, and that will
28:16
give me the max pleasure.
28:19
Mia Hobbs: I'm the same actually. I've heard a lot of
28:20
people on the podcast who don't like knitting on the smaller
28:24
gauges. And I didn't know whether it was because of that,
28:27
or just the things I wanted to knit recently, that I ended up
28:29
knitting with some larger gauge... I mean larger for me,
28:34
like an Aran weight yarn, so like a 5 maybe or 5.5. I'm quite
28:38
a loose knitter. But my hands don't like it as much. I find
28:42
that I don't get RSI at all if I knitted on 2.25 or 3 or quite
28:51
tiny needles, and knitted with 4-ply. I could do that probably
28:55
forever. Whereas if it gets bigger, even a DK, I think my
28:59
hands struggle a bit more. And they don't love cotton either.
29:01
Milli Abrams: Yeah, there's no stretch in cotton. Unless you
29:04
get a chain knit. I've recently discovered really great chain
29:07
knits, which is a fairly new thing in the industry, because
29:11
the old chain knits were terrible. But the new chain
29:14
knits that they use cotton for have stretch in them, so if you
29:14
Mia Hobbs: That's interesting. I was interested in the idea about
29:18
want to knit cotton, get a chain knit. It's brilliant. Okay. But
29:21
the kind of things people say about knitting in the shop,
29:22
yeah, the bigger needles, and it just becomes more of a macro
29:25
movement and you tend to involve a bit more shoulder and elbow
29:28
because you must have a lot of conversations with people who
29:29
and things. It's not something that you can just do with your
29:33
fingertips. Yeah, you need to fight a bit more with the process.
29:35
are new or want to start knitting, and super-experienced
29:42
knitters, about whether they say things about what knitting does
29:50
for them, or what kind of questions they ask you, whether
29:57
they ask for your help with colour?
30:03
Milli Abrams: Yeah, we get lots of feedback from knitters about
30:06
how, especially during lockdown, it just saved them, for a lot of
30:09
people.
30:10
Mia Hobbs: Is that more existing knitters, would you say?
30:14
Milli Abrams: No, both during lockdown actually. And then with
30:17
the experience, I'd say the majority was people that had
30:22
returned to knitting. So they've had the greatest benefit, and
30:26
they've usually not done it for a long time and they did it on
30:29
really old-style needles with old yarn, and everything's moved
30:34
on to such a huge extent that the tools are just 100%
30:38
different to what they used to be, and the yarns. So they've
30:42
had the greatest sort of wow moments. We have lots of people
30:46
who are experiencing grief who turned to knitting. And
30:50
actually, I think there's a lot of doctors that tell people that
30:52
they should try knitting when they're experiencing grief. And
30:54
it seems to really, really help them just sort of metabolise it,
31:00
I guess. What was your... oh, the colours. Yeah, colours is my
31:07
thing, so yes, I do get a lot of...
31:09
Mia Hobbs: So you enjoy having those conversations with people
31:11
and helping them pick.
31:11
Milli Abrams: That's my favourite thing to do. And it's
31:15
Mia Hobbs: It's interesting that for you, you know more about the
31:15
funny how there's so many people who feel really lost with
31:20
colours, or really just don't trust themselves with it. And
31:25
then you can get colours wrong. I feel actually physically
31:30
nauseous when I see some colour combos, and it affects me viscerally.
31:40
kind of mathematical formula of why. Because I think sometimes I
31:44
probably have looked at a colourwork sweater and thought,
31:47
"Ooh I'm not sure..." You know, you look on Ravelry and see lots
31:52
of versions of the same sweater for inspiration, and then think,
31:55
"Ooh, not that one." But I would just feel like it was my spidey
32:00
senses or something. I wouldn't be able to put science on it,
32:03
but that must be great!
32:07
Milli Abrams: Yeah, it is great! But there's also... Angela was
32:13
always very "You mustn't put this colour with this colour."
32:15
And yes, there is that, but I also really love to have a
32:19
disrupter in there somewhere, so long as it's the right type of
32:21
disrupter. You don't want something that was lovely and
32:26
energetic, and then had a weird sort of drab colour in there
32:31
that just made it all fall apart. That's not the right
32:33
disrupter. But if you had something that was a whole bunch
32:35
of, say, neutrals with a pastel or something, and then you
32:41
chucked in one disruptive colour that just gave that piece a lot
32:46
of energy, that's my favourite sort of thing to do.
32:48
Mia Hobbs: Do you know, my mum says that about... she's like,
32:52
"You need one (she'll call it) ugly colour in there, to make
32:56
the others look great." [Laughs] But she's great with colour.
33:01
She's so good and confident from just, I don't know, natural
33:06
ability and being artistic.
33:08
Milli Abrams: Yeah! And years of practice.
33:09
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. But she's really good at experimenting and
33:11
seeing what works, and changing it if it doesn't.
33:15
Milli Abrams: And that's the other thing: you've got to be
33:17
willing to change it if it doesn't work and to make the
33:20
mistakes. And if you want to get good at it, you've just got
33:22
to keep practising and be open to your own feedback and realise
33:27
when actually no, that's not good.
33:30
Mia Hobbs: Do you think you've always been so good at ripping
33:33
out? Or tolerant of it? Because I think I've definitely got
33:36
better over time, and now other people are much more traumatised
33:39
watching me do it than I feel about doing it.
33:41
Milli Abrams: Oh yeah. Darren used to be horrified that I used
33:44
to finish a whole thing and then find one thing at the beginning
33:49
where I would wish I'd stuck a colour in or something, and I'd
33:53
rip it all back. But yeah, I've always been totally fine because
33:58
I'm a process knitter and I don't really care about the
34:02
final knitted thing to own or wear. It's the process. The only
34:06
thing that really traumatises me, I'd say, (if it's trauma) is
34:10
I'm terrible about cutting... you know where it says "break
34:14
yarn". I know that I will very often go back and rip things
34:19
out, so I beat myself up over cutting a yarn where I probably
34:23
shouldn't have cut it, and I should have left it attached to
34:25
Mia Hobbs: Because the ends are worse, aren't they, for that? If
34:27
the ball because I almost definitely always go back. I
34:31
don't like ends. I just don't like too many ends. I've knit
34:35
with silks and cottons so much that ends are a little bit of a
34:39
trauma to me.
34:43
it was a sheep's wool, we could spit splice it.
34:47
Milli Abrams: Exactly. I don't mind cutting those. I'm awful at
34:51
having these projects with loads of balls attached because I
34:54
refuse to cut anything until it's done. [Laughs]
35:00
Mia Hobbs: I would love to ask about a significant knitting
35:03
project for you. It could be something that feels significant
35:09
in your journey with knitting or for your life.
35:14
Milli Abrams: That's a good question. I think for a long
35:16
time, it would have been the blanket that I made for Indy
35:18
when I was pregnant. That was very personal to him. But I
35:22
couldn't even tell you where that is now. We might have lost
35:25
it in the hurricane, I don't know. I make a conscious effort
35:30
to not be attached to anything physical, so I try not to get
35:36
really, really attached to the actual thing. But in terms of
35:40
the process...
35:40
Mia Hobbs: Even just the process of being somewhere significant
35:44
at a time in your life while you made it.
35:47
Milli Abrams: Yeah, definitely the pregnancy ones. I mean, I
35:54
like some projects where you've designed it yourself. I guess it
36:00
means a lot more than when I'm knitting off another pattern.
36:04
And normally, that's because I've knit it like 7, 8, 9 times
36:08
and ripped it back and knit it again just to get it right. So
36:11
you spend a lot of time with it and you're a bit more invested
36:13
in those projects. I've never knit anything for Darren so I
36:19
can't say that it's anything massively significant that I've
36:22
made for family that they hugely appreciate. I knit a hat for my
36:26
granddad a couple of years ago for Christmas that made him
36:28
throw up immediately. It was terrible! A beautiful cashmere
36:31
hat but he overheated straightaway because he couldn't
36:33
take it off! And then he threw up. So I remember that one!
36:38
Mia Hobbs: Oh no! Lots of people have spoken about things they've
36:42
made in significant times, like for example grief has come up
36:46
very often. I think for me, it's often like... I don't know, the
36:53
first time I needed a sweater and actually made something that
36:56
fitted me. You know, I knitted a lot of non-gauge-determined
37:01
items at the beginning like shawls and maybe a hat but
37:06
they're kind of stretchy and more forgiving than a sweater.
37:10
Milli Abrams: Yeah, I can't even remember the last time I made a
37:12
sweater, or the first time I made a sweater that fit. I don't
37:16
think I ever tried to make sweaters that really fit. I
37:21
haven't really tried to do that until I had the shop and I was
37:24
leading knit-alongs and things, and I had to teach other people
37:29
that wanted to keep their knits for some reason [laughs] how to
37:32
make it fit.
37:34
Mia Hobbs: Have you not kept even sweaters for yourself?
37:39
Milli Abrams: No, I don't keep them. They're all shop samples.
37:41
I get to wear them, so I'll wear them home or they might sit in
37:45
my wardrobe for a weekend when I'm at home and then I'll wash
37:48
them and take them back to the shop and they'll be a shop
37:49
sample. I don't tend to have my own. Everything really belongs
37:53
to the shop and then I borrow them.
37:58
Mia Hobbs: So you've got a never-ending stream of new
38:01
things to wear for a weekend!
38:03
Milli Abrams: I have, yeah! As long as I'm organised enough to
38:06
remember to take it home from the shop that night, which is
38:09
great for the shawls and things for some of them are quite
38:11
dressy. So yeah, I've got like a big tickle trunk of possible
38:16
knits at the shop that I can borrow whenever I want to. But
38:20
we've recently moved to a boat, and again, I don't have very
38:24
much wardrobe space. So yes, I just use the shop as a wardrobe
38:27
space.
38:28
Mia Hobbs: Perfect! And you can keep on knitting. You don't have
38:32
to feel guilty when your wardrobe is full!
38:36
Milli Abrams: Yeah! And in Canada, whenever I knit, I used
38:39
to give all the stuff to my mates and then I'd borrow it
38:43
back when I was like, "Oh, I really want the... you know".
38:46
And we all lived fairly close to one another, so I'd just nip by
38:49
and grab that jumper back for whatever reason. And we sort of
38:52
just shared all my knits, I suppose. I just never kept them
38:55
at our home. So yeah, I like that about knitting.
38:59
Mia Hobbs: Does it bother you if people don't... Some people I've
39:04
spoken to have said, "There's certain people I WOULD knit for
39:06
because they kind of get it" like a) how many hours went into
39:10
that; b) how to look after it properly if it's wool or
39:16
something like that, don't just felt it the first time you wash
39:19
it. [Laughs] Does that bother you or will you literally set
39:22
them free into the world and don't think about them again?
39:27
Milli Abrams: I won't make something for someone that's
39:29
asked for something, if they don't know what it is they're
39:33
asking for. And people are always asking, and I'll get
39:38
messages on Instagram or whatever from friend, "Can you
39:42
make my wife one of those or whatever?" And I'll be like,
39:45
"No. I mean, I could but it's going to cost you £600. That's
39:50
my time."
39:51
Mia Hobbs: Well, that's cheap! You've not given yourself a
39:54
decent hourly rate, Milli! [Laughs]
39:55
Milli Abrams: Well, that is cheap! [Laughs]
39:57
Mia Hobbs: And the yarn!
39:58
Milli Abrams: So no, I don't make stuff for people that don't
40:00
get it. If they really get it and they really want it, then
40:03
absolutely, I'll make it for them. And if I know that they're
40:06
not going to look after it, and they've asked for it, then they
40:09
won't get it. But generally, if it's something that I was making
40:12
anyway, and someone's said that they'd quite like it, then they
40:16
can have it and there's no questions asked. I will mention
40:19
to them that they shouldn't chuck it in the washing machine
40:20
or they won't be able to wear it very much. But then if it's
40:24
theirs, and it's gone, I don't even think about it again I
40:27
think. You know, after it's gone, it's gone.
40:30
Mia Hobbs: Do you knit quite fast?
40:31
Milli Abrams: Very fast. Yeah, I'm extremely fast. Recently
40:35
we've had people in the shop... Because I've not been on the
40:38
shop floor as much, I've been back in the office or downstairs
40:40
in the back or wherever, and I've heard people say (or the
40:43
girls have said that another person said) "Does Milli really
40:46
knit all those knits or does she have like an army of minions in
40:49
the background making the stuff?" I knit all my knits
40:52
myself. It's important for me to experience all of the yarn
40:55
myself, but I am very fast. And I'm small, so I make the smaller
41:01
size [laughs] which really helps!
41:04
Mia Hobbs: But don't you seem from Instagram to have produced
41:07
knits that look great on a whole number of family members as
41:10
well?
41:11
Milli Abrams: The shawls! The shawls fit everyone.
41:14
Mia Hobbs: Are they all shawls? Have I not seen sweaters on Indy
41:16
Milli Abrams: Oh I do do that! I do make my son wear... yeah, I
41:16
or...?
41:19
mean, they are small for him. He didn't go out wearing them.
41:22
Mia Hobbs: He's very tolerant of it!
41:24
Milli Abrams: Oh he's amazing. He'll do whatever I ask him to
41:27
do. He doesn't really care what anyone thinks. He'll just do
41:33
whatever he wants. But I will quite often put it on him
41:37
because I want to see what the shoulders or the neckline might
41:40
look like on a man, or how it'll fit if you haven't got boobs, or
41:43
what that colour might look like on someone else, or does a very
41:47
soft mohair look alright on a bloke that's got a beard, that
41:50
kind of thing. So yeah, I will make the family try... you know,
41:54
my dad will try on a lot of my stuff. My dad loves trying
41:57
things on for me and he quite often gets them. He's got loads
42:00
of my knits in his wardrobe, but I never see him actually wear
42:03
them after the first time. So I should really take them back
42:05
[laughs] and give them to someone else. But they are
42:11
small. I do knit oversize arms. I like really long arms. Maybe
42:16
that's why they get away with it.
42:19
Mia Hobbs: You like to wear them?
42:20
Milli Abrams: I like to wear overly long sleeves.
42:25
Mia Hobbs: I always end with asking: what's the greatest gift
42:28
that knitting has given you for the rest of your life?
42:34
Milli Abrams: It's very important. I think it's probably
42:39
added several years to my life.
42:41
Milli Abrams: Just in the calming and, you know, not being
42:42
Mia Hobbs: In what way specifically, do you think?
42:44
frazzled and stressed and giving myself a stress-induced disease,
42:49
I think. All that time where people think it's wasted,
42:53
knitting, it's probably not. It's probably adding that much
42:57
time and then some at the end of your life, you know? It's not a
43:01
waste of time. And I think the biggest, biggest gift is that it
43:06
makes me a much easier person to be around and to live with for
43:10
my family, because I'm not totally frazzled all the time if
43:14
I've got my knitting. And they get some downtime from me. I'm
43:19
very A Type. I'm always needing things to do because I can't sit
43:23
still. But it gives them a break to just sit and chill when they
43:28
know that I'm not going to bother them because I'm in my knitting.
43:34
Mia Hobbs: So it does sound like it really has a regulating kind
43:37
of function for you.
43:40
Milli Abrams: Massively. And I notice it very much if I have
43:43
not picked up my needles that day or for a couple of days. I
43:47
feel like I really need some time, and I'm just going to grab
43:49
my needles and just be.
43:51
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. I feel like I can feel it physically as well,
43:54
that I need to kind of have... My grandma used to slightly
43:58
sneakily still smoke and think we didn't know about it.
44:02
[Laughs] It was almost like after she'd eaten her dinner,
44:06
she'd get a bit agitated and feel like she needed to smoke.
44:10
And I've felt exactly the same about my knitting.
44:14
Milli Abrams: Absolutely. There's times where you just
44:18
feel a bit antsy and a bit up, and you're just like, "Right,
44:21
let's just go sit over there, grab some knitting and just calm
44:24
down for a while." So I think that's the greatest, greatest
44:28
gift, that you've got a tool that allows you to have instant
44:33
stress relief, and you can take it anywhere you go, and it makes
44:36
a lot of the more stressful times in your life, like sitting
44:39
in traffic (not when you're driving, obviously) or waiting
44:42
for something where you can just get more and more riled up. It
44:45
makes those times the complete opposite of what they would have
44:48
been, which I think is huge. I don't know how people cope! I
44:54
don't know how people live that don't have the knitting.
44:57
Mia Hobbs: I did end up doing a lot of waiting for hospital
45:01
appointments a few years ago, sometimes three hours in this
45:06
particular department that I had to go back to a couple of times,
45:08
and everybody else had their phones and they'd by the end run
45:11
out of phone battery. And I was knitting and I thought, "Next
45:15
time I come here, if I have to come back, I'm bringing extra
45:17
yarn and needles!" because there were people who were then
45:20
striking up conversation about my knitting, because I was the
45:22
only one doing anything other than on their phone, which I
45:25
think makes people look unapproachable, I guess, if
45:27
they're looking down at a phone. And they were asking me about
45:30
it. And I felt so lucky!
45:33
Milli Abrams: Well, because the other thing that makes you more
45:35
approachable, I think, as a knitter and as a social knitter,
45:37
if you're someone that has anxiety about social settings
45:40
and new people, is that when you've got your knitting you can
45:43
have a really good mix of eye contact with people and then an
45:47
excuse to break your eye contact in a non-awkward way. So you've
45:51
always got your knitting that you can look down at, but you
45:53
can also look up and maintain decent eye contact. There's no
45:56
pressure or awkward social pressure to keep looking at the
46:00
person that you're interacting with. So I think that's also why
46:05
a lot of people that have that awkwardness, it's good for them
46:10
when they've got their knitting and they feel like they can
46:12
approach you more, because you haven't got to be that intense
46:15
with them because you're already doing something. And it's not
46:18
like, you know, when you're reading a book, you don't want
46:19
to approach that person because they've got to be looking at
46:21
their book to continue what they're doing. But you can talk
46:24
to someone that's knitting.
46:25
Mia Hobbs: And I certainly find my concentration... I have a
46:29
very flighty concentration span, I suppose. Like if I'm sitting
46:33
in a busy waiting room, I wouldn't be able to really focus
46:36
on a book, I don't think, or on a bus. Whereas I totally could
46:39
knit. But I wouldn't have enough focus to just read, I don't
46:45
think.
46:47
Milli Abrams: Yeah, I'm either not into the book enough, and
46:50
I'm not focused because I'm concentrating on other stuff and
46:53
have to listen for my stop, or I'm so into my book that I'm
46:56
going to miss my stop. But when I used to get on my little bus
47:04
in the Caribbean, that took me down to a boat, that was fine. I
47:07
could read because everyone else on the bus would tell me when it
47:12
was time to get off at the next stop! [Laughs] And that's fine.
47:16
I used to really get into a book then. But that's...
47:20
Mia Hobbs: That's not going to happen in London. [Laughs]
47:25
Milli Abrams: I mean, I guess you could ask the person next to
47:27
you, "Can you just tap me when it's such-and-such stop?" But we
47:31
don't do that, do we?
47:32
Mia Hobbs: No, we don't. We should be more Caribbean in our
47:36
attitude! You wouldn't see the same people every day, that's
47:39
for sure.
47:40
Milli Abrams: No, no.
47:45
Mia Hobbs: Interesting that you said the more senior you got,
47:48
the more possible it felt to knit during meetings to help you
47:53
concentrate. And certainly I've found that as well. But now I
47:57
feel like I have more confidence. And I think it's
47:59
helps that some stuff is over Zoom. I just don't believe
48:03
humans are designed to sit down and do a six hour training
48:06
course and not move!
48:08
Milli Abrams: No! Not at all.
48:08
Mia Hobbs: And I feel like if I knit, it's the perfect level of:
48:12
my hands are busy and my brain is available for concentrating.
48:15
Whereas if I wasn't doing that, I feel like my brain might
48:19
freelance onto something even more distracting, and then
48:23
actually draw my concentration away from what I'm supposed to
48:25
be focusing on.
48:27
Milli Abrams: It's like doodling, isn't it? It's like a
48:29
form of doodling. But you end up with an actual 3D possibly
48:34
useful thing at the end of it.
48:36
Mia Hobbs: You described yourself as a Type A person. How
48:41
much does having something tangible that you've created add
48:45
to the appeal of knitting? You said you like to finish things.
48:48
Do you get a certain sense of achievement from... I guess lots
48:51
of the things we do are on a screen and you can't really see
48:53
your progress. You've done a day's work, but it's not really
48:57
visible. Whereas with knitting you have a thing you can show
49:01
and feel and touch.
49:02
Milli Abrams: You have a thing, yeah. And there's a beginning
49:05
and an end. I think, for me, that's more important than
49:08
actually having the thing, because I don't ever really want
49:10
the thing. But I like that there's a finite end to a thing
49:14
and you can finish an actual project and it's gone. I think,
49:18
in my experience with knitting and all the people around me
49:20
that knit, it seems to be a more male need, maybe, or more
49:28
important from an actual creating point of view and
49:32
having a thing that you've sculpted and made. That seems to
49:36
make the boys... I've noticed that they have a lot more
49:41
satisfaction about having the final piece, about the creation.
49:46
I mean, women do too but it's very much more noticeable with
49:49
guys - that they've got like a thing that they've made. For me,
49:51
it's more the beginning of it. I genuinely get the same pleasure
49:56
out of a really great spreadsheet. [Laughs] I love a
49:59
spreadsheet! Whenever I've got one that I've 'birthed', and
50:03
then it's finished and it's magnificent, then I love that
50:05
too. And that's not a tangible thing, so I know that for me it
50:10
doesn't have to be something I can hold. But I like that
50:13
there's an ending.
50:15
Mia Hobbs: I think one of the things we talk about, like when
50:18
we're using knitting for people who are maybe struggling with
50:21
low mood or something, we talk about having two types of tasks
50:25
that are helpful: something that's intrinsically enjoyable,
50:28
and something that gives you a sense of achievement. So even if
50:30
I tidied my desk or my workspace, that might not be fun
50:33
for me but I could look at it and think, "Oh, well done me. I
50:36
did that." But I guess knitting gives you both, and it's harder
50:42
to deny progress if you can see it and hold it in your hand.
50:45
Milli Abrams: Yeah! And a new learned technique. That's hugely
50:49
satisfying, when you're learning something a lot of the time, or
50:52
Mia Hobbs: So you're someone who likes the uncharted new
50:54
you're coming across a new colour combo. Do you know, one
50:56
of the really cool things in the shop is when we willl get a
50:58
bunch of customers and someone will put a yarn down on the
51:00
counter that they want, and someone else puts another yarn
51:02
down on the counter, and they happen to be next to each other
51:05
and you just think, "Wow! I never would have put those
51:07
territory, aren't you? In the colour combos, but also in the
51:07
colours together, but wow!" I love that.
51:18
techniques. That's a driver for you.
51:20
Milli Abrams: The learning, yeah, and I think that's really
51:23
important as well. There's different types of people.
51:27
There's some people that are the perfectionists and they have to
51:29
get it right, and they need the finished article, and that's
51:31
where they derive their sense of achievement and enjoyment. And
51:34
there's others that are process driven, like me, and then
51:38
there's people where we just want to constantly be changing
51:41
and learning and moving and that's who I am. And I think
51:46
it's really good for... don't they say it's great for
51:49
cognitive function and the ageing brain, if you can keep
51:52
learning and keep introducing new skills and rebuilding in all
51:57
those pathways.
51:58
Mia Hobbs: Yeah! And I guess if you think about your past, you
52:00
didn't get to be... was it CFO?... and work with Richard
52:04
Branson, unless you were a high-achieving, ambitious
52:07
person. And I guess all of that drive is in you somewhere, and
52:10
it's going in your knitting and learning new techniques.
52:14
Milli Abrams: Yeah, there is that but also, as an accountant,
52:17
I'm the very outside of the box... you know, creative... I'm
52:20
not a creative accountant in the bad sense, but I am an outside
52:24
the box accountant that is driven... I'll look at different
52:27
things with performance, and holistically as a business as a
52:30
whole. So my style of accounting really worked for him in that
52:34
business, and the way that I will lead a team is like that.
52:37
And it is also the way that I approach my knitting. Whereas
52:40
Darren, my husband, is an accountant but he's a much more
52:43
detail-driven in-the-weeds accountant, and he doesn't have
52:47
an interest in knitting things and wouldn't know where to start
52:50
with creating a project or chucking colours together,
52:53
because that's not who he is. Actually it would stress him
52:56
out. I sometimes say, "What do you think of this colour and
53:00
this colour?" and he's just like, "What?! I don't even..."
53:03
Mia Hobbs: But that creativity is a driver for you?
53:07
Milli Abrams: Yeah, the creativity's a driver for me but
53:10
I recognise that with some people, unless they've got the
53:13
formula and the pattern and it's written out, and the
53:15
predictability of how the colours will work, they'll get
53:18
really stressed out about it. But once that bit is taken care
53:21
of, then they find it equally enjoyable to sit and knit.
53:29
Mia Hobbs: And actually, that's amazing, isn't it? That knitting
53:30
could be a great task for both different types of people with
53:34
very different... cognitive needs, we could call it, I
53:37
suppose. The fact that you can get your needs met in your way,
53:41
being more creative.
53:43
Milli Abrams: Yeah, so that's very interesting. And that's why
53:47
I think that it's so good at bringing together all the
53:51
different types of people. You don't have to be a particular
53:55
type of person to enjoy knitting; you can pretty much be
53:58
any background and any type and your brain can work in any way.
54:02
You could be someone that has to be predictable and methodical,
54:05
or someone that likes the chaos like I do. Actually, I like the
54:09
chaos but then I really like the order and the maths side of
54:12
knitting. So yeah, it all works.
54:14
Mia Hobbs: You're running Knit Nites, aren't you, at Tribe?
54:16
Milli Abrams: Yeah. At the minute they're virtual.
54:23
Mia Hobbs: But they were in person for a while, weren't
54:25
they?
54:25
Milli Abrams: They were.
54:26
Mia Hobbs: Is there anything that surprises you about the
54:27
conversations that come up, that feels different about the kind
54:30
of conversations people have while their knitting, compared
54:33
to if people were in a pub or a restaurant or...?
54:38
Milli Abrams: I mean, we talk a lot more about yarns and
54:41
patterns and things! [Laughs]
54:43
Mia Hobbs: Yeah sure. I guess many of the people don't know
54:45
each other? Or do they? Before they come?
54:47
Milli Abrams: Yeah. It's a lot easier to sit in a group when
54:49
you've got your knitting, than say if you're all sat there in a
54:52
circle with nothing but each other! And we get new people all
54:57
the time. Every week we've got at least one new person, and
55:02
that's great. We've all got something that unites us all,
55:07
but we all recognise that we're extremely different. And on our
55:10
virtual Knit Nites we're global. We're all over the world. We've
55:12
got people in Finland and Australia and the States and
55:17
Portugal and from all over the place in different time zones on
55:21
this one call, and that's nice. We're all knitting very
55:26
different things in different colours, and we can all
55:29
appreciate what the other person's making.
55:33
Mia Hobbs: I think that's another thing, you know, you
55:35
were talking about the idea of being able to regulate your eye
55:37
contact when you're knitting. I guess the other thing is you do
55:40
just have an automatic topic of conversation, even with
55:42
non-knitters when they talk to you on a bus or something. It's
55:48
in a way less awkward. They can ask you about your knitting
55:52
or...
55:53
Milli Abrams: It's like having a cute baby. I mean that's when
55:55
you've always got people that will come and talk to you if
55:58
you've got a cute dog or a baby.
56:00
Mia Hobbs: Yes, this is true. [Laughs]
56:01
Milli Abrams: It is kind of like that. For ages we were thought
56:04
of as really weird. I was a closet knitter for a very long
56:07
time in my childhood, because it was not cool to be knitting. You
56:12
didn't tell anyone that you did it. But it is cool now! It's
56:18
kind of fine. It's a little bit fringe, but it's fine.
56:21
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, I was certainly... I mean I didn't
56:24
always knit. Sometimes I was doing other things like cross
56:27
stitch, and I don't think I realised how much I needed it
56:29
for my mental wellbeing. But I would always get my revision
56:34
done quite early, and then the night before exams I'd be
56:36
secretly in my bedroom cross stitching. Because obviously, if
56:40
you did that openly, people would be annoyed at you that
56:42
you'd finished revising, but I just get to the point where I'm
56:45
done. Psychologically, I can't cram any more into this brain.
56:48
Now I'm doing something else. But I feel like it almost opened
56:51
a different trapdoor in my mind, that doing something rhythmical
56:55
with my hands allowed the revision to percolate in a way,
56:58
I felt.
56:59
Milli Abrams: Yeah, definitely. And it was a reward for me as
57:03
well. I'd get a whole bunch of revision done, and then allow
57:07
myself to go knit a few more line, because it was just so
57:10
good. I know some people would reward themselves with cake or a
57:18
cigarette or something, but knitting's a super healthy way
57:22
of rewarding yourself, I guess, with hindsight.
57:25
Mia Hobbs: I relearnt, actually. My mum insisted I learnt when I
57:28
started my doctorate in Clinical Psychology, because she thought
57:31
it was a good thing to do. And it did turn out to be the
57:34
perfect thing for revision breaks. I was knitting a big
57:36
shawl, so they had rows, and you could do a row or two rows, and
57:40
then there's a finite end to your break. And then you go back
57:44
to the books.
57:45
Milli Abrams: Yeah. You do have to be disciplined enough to say,
57:49
"I'm not going to just do one more row."
57:52
Mia Hobbs: Or when you're knitting in the round, it's even
57:53
harder. [Laughs] The rows are less finite. Well, Milli, it has
57:59
been an absolute pleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much
58:03
for joining me on the podcast. If people want to find out more
58:06
about you or Tribe, how would they find out more?
58:12
Milli Abrams: Probably through the Tribe Yarns website:
58:16
www.tribeyarns.com. And then I do send out a newsletter, which
58:18
tends to be long and has a lot in it, but I only do that once
58:23
every month or every six weeks. I'm not very good at sending
58:26
that more often than that. So subscribe to the newsletter. And
58:30
follow me on Instagram @tribeyarnslife where there's
58:32
always lots of pictures of me and my family.
58:36
Mia Hobbs: In beautiful Richmond!
58:45
Thank you so much for listening to the Why I Knit podcast. If
58:48
you'd like to find out more about therapeutic knitting, you
58:50
can follow me on Instagram @knittingistherapeutic, or at my
58:54
website: www.therapeuticknitting.org. If
58:57
you're enjoying the podcast, I would really appreciate it if
58:59
you could leave a rating and a review on your podcast app. This
59:03
will help grow the podcast and let more people know about the
59:05
therapeutic benefits of knitting. And don't forget to
59:08
subscribe too. Thank you!