Latest / Student Ministry Conversations / 273 | Culture of Belonging: When Students Feel on the Fringe | SMC Podcast

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273 | Culture of Belonging: When Students Feel on the Fringe | SMC Podcast · Student Ministry Conversations

• speaker-0: Hey and welcome back to the podcast. We are man, we're at the last ⁓ last week of September and we are moving right along into the fall. ⁓ and it's going by pretty quick. And so this month for the month of September, we've been talking about cre ⁓ cultivating a culture of belonging. And so this is week four. And with that, one of the things that we have done is we have talked through a couple different things. Week one, we talked about moving from attendance to belonging. and creating a space where students can actually belong. ⁓ and then how do we do that? We do it by creating safe spaces ⁓ and sacred spaces, which was our conversation for week two. And we talked about the idea of how we go about doing that. and ⁓ really the importance behind it and how we need emotional and spiritual and relational safety in our groups. ⁓ and all three of those are vital when it comes to creating that space where students can be known, students can be heard, and they feel like they belong. ⁓ week three we moved into the idea of helping students find their place, but specifically we talked about the idea of inclusion without creating clicks. ⁓ because creating those unintentional groups that really, really mesh together and kind of become exclusive ⁓ is really, really damaging to that relational idea of your ministry. ⁓ and so with that we really, really want to avoid clicks when we go in. But how do we help students find their place? How how do we help students find places they belong? It's pretty simple, but we go into great detail on week three. ⁓ and that simplicity is just the mindset of find what they're good at and either put them in a job that they can do really, really well or create that job for them that they can do in their ministry. ⁓ and that might be welcoming, that might be service behind the scenes, that might be leading leading a small group that might be teaching, that might be leading worship or being on the worship team, that might be on the production side, that might be something completely different. ⁓ but all of your students are gifted in different areas and finding ways for them to serve is important. ⁓ and which leads us to our last conversation for the month of September, and we are kind of revisiting a topic, ⁓ That I've actually done an entire series on before in the podcast, but I was looking back, and it's been almost a it's probably been 180 episodes since we ended that series. ⁓ and so with that being said, we early on in this podcast when we had a completely different format. I'm not even sure if David was necessarily on the podcast yet. I don't know. He might have not been when we started this series, but I did a series called Students on the Fringe and ⁓ and I did four episodes and I'm gonna tag all four of them in the comments so you should go check them out. But we go into like ⁓ into specific targeted groups. ⁓ and we talk about, you know, how do you how do you deal with no like how do you have a ministry ⁓ that has and prioritizes students with special needs? How do you ⁓ prioritize a group that has foster children? How do you prioritize a group that has homeless kids? ⁓ and then how do you finally the last one was kind of where I think our conversation will gear with most today is how do you find a place and how do you find an opportunity to make that relational space for the student that is on the outside of the room looking in? It's not necessarily that he has any special needs, it's not necessarily that he has any extenuating circumstances. He just doesn't kind of feel like he fits in and he hasn't found his spot yet. And so he's real quiet, he sits in the corner of the room. How do you make sure that you have time and intentionality and effort towards those students too? And so, that's kind of where we're going today. The student that nobody notices. ⁓ I want you to picture your youth room on a Wednesday night. ⁓ normal Wednesday night, just everything's going, students are walking through the doors, music playing, people's people are laughing, maybe you have a ping pong table or a pool table in your youth room. ⁓ someone is already being too loud, too obnoxious. We all have those kids. ⁓ your volunteers are talking with students. Maybe you've got food, ⁓ depending on if your ministry does that. You're just visualizing your Wednesday night. Everything seems to be going well and somewhere in that room is a student standing on the edge of everything. Maybe they're looking at their phone, maybe they're sitting by themselves, maybe they're following another student around because that's the only student they know in the entire group. Maybe they're participating just enough so nobody thinks that anything's wrong. speaker-1: Mm. speaker-0: Maybe they've been coming for six months. And here's the scary part it's possible for us to have a successful night of ministry and completely miss that student. The game worked, the worship was good, the message connected, small groups went well, attendance was up, but one student that walked into the room was feeling invisible. That's the kind of talk that we're having today. How do we reach that student on the fringe? How do we how do we make a emotional, spiritual, relational, safe place where we find a place for them to belong, ⁓ to where they're not on the outside looking in? speaker-1: Think the ⁓ is evil. No please. ⁓ I was gonna say the easy thing is to notice, like keep your eyes always open and looking around. Like so for example, we had CEO at the poll this morning and I was at the junior high in our in our town and we had we circled everybody up and then we broke everybody into small groups. Cause especially with junior high, it is really difficult for junior high students to feel comfortable being in a massive circle. ⁓ it works a lot better in with the high school. So with the junior high we broke them into small groups. Who said, Hey, get with your friends, start praying. Everyone starts grouping up. I noticed this one girl who ⁓ just kinda sat off by herself and she bowed her head and started praying. And my heart broke. Because, you know You look around and everybody just sort of naturally circled up and they weren't really paying attention to what everybody else was doing. And so I just literally in the middle of prayer with one of them, I grabbed one of my students and it just said, Hey, ⁓ she's like, What's up? And and I just pointed. All I had to do is point. And she goes, I got you. She went and she got her and she just said, Hey, you wanna pray with us? And she was like the smile and relief on that girl's face. I literally I saw her smile, but I also saw her go Like this and then she went. And it wasn't like a ⁓ I gotta go. It was ⁓ my gosh, someone asked me. And I saw it on her face. She lit up. And what was really cool was not only did she invite her, I noticed my student put her arm around her and said, I'm really glad that you're joining us. And she goes, Well, thank you for asking. And then they prayed and it was good. And she literally and she brought it right into the group and she held her hand and it was I was like, dude, yeah. I didn't have to say a word. All I did was point. Yeah. Now, granted, I have the relationship with that student to know like she knew exactly what I was talking about. ⁓ but at the same time, it's like by keeping as leaders, we don't always have to be the one. You know, it's yeah, identify your student leaders that you can step in and and give them that opportunity to lead. That was a blessing for both of them. Cause here's the thing, I'm not gonna be at the junior head the rest of the day. Or even tomorrow for that matter. She is. And by doing that, she I don't I don't know if they're friends. I'm I plan on talking to that student tonight, but ⁓ I don't know if they're friends. I don't know if that girl has a church. I don't know if she's plugged in, but because she stepped in and and did that, that now gives me an a follow-up opportunity with with my leader and say, Hey, is she plugged in anywhere? Is she going anywhere? Is she you know, clearly she was there to pray, but that doesn't necessarily mean she's plugged in. If she's not, I would I invite you to to step in and and invite her and at the very least, ⁓ if she's going to a church, maybe help her you know, I don't I I don't know, but she definitely seems like just just from what I observed this morning one of those students that are on the fringe. And so when you're when you're looking for those opportunities, ask yourself immediately, what student do I have that can immediately help? ⁓ if you don't have one in that moment, by all means step up. But yeah, ⁓ I always try to identify a student leader first. ⁓ because like I said, they're gonna be the ones that are going to be especially if they're in that same, you know, rough age range, ⁓ easy when you're at the junior high everybody is. Sure. But speaker-0: ⁓ speaker-1: you know, w if you're in your youth group situation, go find somebody who's similar. Or even if you ask a leader and say, Hey, especially if you don't know that student very well or have you can even ask that student, Hey, do you know do you know their story? I mean there's just so many different ways to to step in and and have those conversations and make somebody feel but the thing I I go to every time is that they're gonna feel most seen and loved if it's somebody who's closer to their speaker-0: age. Sure. No, and I I I think you hit it on the head as far as that goes with just the mindset of two things. First off, like some students don't need a better program. They just need to be noticed. Yeah. And I think a lot of times we we really, really kind of focus all of our effort and all of our intention on the mindset of like, ⁓ well we just need a new program. We need just need new things. No, we just need to see the students that walk in the door. Mm-hmm. And then secondly I love that you brought up the idea of like I'm not going to be the person to do it. I'm going to send a student to go do it. too because not only like this is bringing week three into week four, you are empowering a student to take charge in their ministry and you are making them be the one that's responsible for bringing the new student in. And that's a huge dynamic. Like you're you're you're ⁓ meshing weeks together in this series and that's that's what it's about. We're we're creating that relational and intentional safe space, but we're creating a position to where our students can be taking the lead and going after what needs to be done. And so I I think the next thing we have to talk about though is like this mindset of like, well, who are the fringe students? Obviously the ones that aren't seen, but when we say fringe student We gotta be really, really careful because the last thing we wanna do, like we talked about last week, is create a click where all of these students are the ones that like nobody talks to or something like that. We don't wanna unintentionally make a group or a category or a label that labels these students separately from the rest of the groups. So we're not talking about students ⁓ who are relationally disconnected. I mean we're we are talking about excuse me, we're talking about students that are relationally disconnected from ⁓ the community around them. They don't all look the same. It's not a group, it's not a label, it's not a it's not like a just it's not a category of your program. I I think sometimes you just have to stop and look. And I think I think you said that well. ⁓ sometimes they're quiet. ⁓ this is probably the student that we immediately imagine. they sit towards the back, they don't volunteer answers, ⁓ they don't initiate conversations, they stand outside of the group to pray by themselves. ⁓ they might not participate in games, ⁓ because they aren't causing problems, they're really, really easy to overlook, and sometimes because they're not asking or answering any of the questions, they're also easy to overlook too. We spend it we tend to put a lot of time and effort on the most vocal and most loud ones because they're the ones that are demanding the attention. And that's worth thinking about. Sometimes students who receive the most and tin most attention in the youth group are the ones that actually are demanding it. They're loud, they're funny, they're disruptive, they're outgoing. Meanwhile the quiet student can go an entire night without a meaningful interaction with an adult. And that's not because people don't care, it's because it's easy to miss. So, ⁓ that's one of them. Sometimes they're just the quiet kid. The other one that we miss sometimes, and or I I hesitate to say miss because typically youth pastors have a pretty good eye for this group of people, but I think sometimes we ⁓ I I think sometimes we oversimplify the need that needs to be given to this group of people. We're like, ⁓ well they're in they're they're here now, like it's great. And that's the new student. Sometimes they're new. They don't know the culture yet, they don't know the inside jokes, they don't know which adult is which, they don't know what happens next. ⁓ they don't know where to sit, let alone what the order of service is or anything to that nature. And think about how intimidating that can be. Or how the night works. Because we've done it a hundred times, but this is their first or second time. Our regular students know it because they've been coming for years, but the new student is trying to decode everything at the same time, also while wondering, do I fit here? speaker-1: This is where I think again, giving an opportunity for for a specific group of students who are really gifted at this is have your have your students that don't mind sort of selling the program and the culture of your youth ministry. What I mean by that is I have a couple of students that love to talk about why we do certain things. Specifically, like we have a lot of inside jokes. That's just natural to a group. And so they're really good at going, ⁓ let me explain. We have this game called Hunter in the Middle because Hunter is really, really bad at this game and always finds herself in the middle. And so we we don't even remember what the original name of the of the game was because Hunter was just always in the middle. Funny thing is she's actually gotten really good at it and she's not the worst at the game anymore. But it will always be Hunter in the Middle. And when Hunter ends up in the mental in the middle, we All scream Hunter in the middle, and everyone just gets really excited and laughs. ⁓ it sounds silly, but to the outsider who's never why are we calling it this? Why are we so excited about this? Why are we, you know, stuff like that? And so, ironically enough, Hunter is one of my students that is really, really good at taking people aside and saying, Let me explain, like, and she loves it. Like, it's just she's very social, she's very like she wants everybody to feel ⁓ comfortable and welcome. She's she's a mama bear, she really is, and so. So she's very good at saying, let's have this conversation. And so have, you know, identify a couple of student leaders that ⁓ have a heart for people who are on the fringe and then let them be the mama bears that they naturally are. ⁓ There's not a whole lot you have to do in those moments because again, I can explain the program and stuff like that, but these students connect it in a different way than we will. We see the overall picture, right? And so when we when we talk about our student ministry, we talk about the the win. You know, we we define it using word like spiritual words a lot of times when we're explaining to a student because again, we see the bigger picture. So to have a student that can just simply say, ⁓ this is a stupid, silly thing that we do but it means a lot to them and they go okay great now they're connected you know and and I don't I don't know we we as youth pastors probably more times than not overcomplicate the process and a student will just say we do it because we do it and it's funny. ⁓ okay cool and then they're in and and we're just like does it have to be that simple? Well sometimes yeah sometimes yeah speaker-0: Yeah. On the other hand of that though, I do think this is one of those things that like we need to teach our kids. We need to train our kids because they need to know what to like what to include in these conversations. They need to know what it means to actually welcome a new student. Because sometimes like welcoming and I've seen this a lot in different groups, like welcoming a new student is starting with that kid, like saying, ⁓ hey, like my name's this and then they run off and go go back with their own friends and then that kid's left there later. It's like, no, like today your job, your your position is you are going to stay with this student from start to finish. Make sure they feel heard, make sure they feel accepted, make sure they feel like they're a part of the group, make sure they're where they're supposed to be, invite them to sit with you at worship, invite them to sit next to you in small group. Like all of those things are super, super important. And it's just the idea of like if we're not tea like telling students to do that, it's really, really easy for the student to have like that squirrel mentality of like, ⁓ well already did that and now I'm gonna go back to my friends. And it's like that that doesn't help. If if anything that hurts. It's like, Hi, glad you're here. I'm gonna go hang out with the people that I want to be with now. Like Yeah and speaker-1: I'll even share like you have you've got a couple of students that did a really good job of that Monday. ⁓ before we had no after we had hockey on Monday, ⁓ I ran by the coffee shop there in Abilene and ⁓ ran into a bunch of your students because they were there for Young Life. And so ⁓ which was really cool. ⁓ I I know a lot of the students because we all go to the same camp and stuff like that. And so ⁓ anyway, I ran into a bunch of them and I was like, Hey, what are you guys all doing here? and they're Like and I saw the tables out outside on the side. I was kind of curious anyway. And they're just like, ⁓ we're here for Young Life. I was ⁓ that's super cool. And ⁓ I knew everyone there but one kid. And ⁓ what was really cool is one one of them. ⁓ I'll just go ahead and say his name because he he likes the attention. ⁓ Luke was very quick to say, Hey, here ⁓ he ⁓ goes, This is one of the youth pastors that goes to our camp. He leads worship and does and he like he went into all the different Different things and stuff like that. He's like, He's a homie, he's cool. stuff like that. So anyway, I shook the guy's hand and was like, Hey, I'm really glad you're here and stuff like that. He's like, Are you helping with young? I was like, No, I actually just happened to get coffee with my son and ran into you guys. But I'm really excited that you're here and I hope you get a lot out of it. And then then while I was at it, I was just like, Well, are you plugged into a church? And he goes, He said, kind of, sort of, but I've been thinking about maybe going to church with with these guys. And I was like, awesome. I well, I I'll tell you, I know their youth pastor, and I know a lot of the students here. It's a great church. Would love to see you get plugged in. And ⁓ if you get an opportunity, you know, do that. And Luke's like, ⁓ yeah, ⁓ yeah, he's coming to church with us. It's happening. And just I just thought it was really cool. And and just seeing them like, you know, but he did a really good job of like, it wasn't just this random guy who I was talking to. He actually took a second to say, Hey, this is David. He's a youth pastor. He goes to our camp. He leaves worship. Really cool guy. and ⁓ we're not just talking to a random stranger. Like he it wasn't even at youth group, but he did a good job of like taking a step back, realizing, I mean, it was a group of four of them. I knew three of them. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah. But he noticed that there was one who didn't know. And so he took the time and and just that little bit, it could have been an awkward situation for that guy. But instead he took the time to to introduce and then he again he stayed with them. And then afterwards, like the he walked out with the guy. Like I don't know what they did from there, but like just that little bit of intentionality there was sure incredible. You know? And so ⁓ again, just know those students and and here's the other thing. We talk about this a lot on the podcast, but then Celebrate the win, like celebrate that student that takes the time. Like, yeah, if they if they made their entire night about this one student, you need to celebrate it in some way. Whether that's a high five and saying thank you, which I think always should happen, or sometimes I like to look at those students and go, Hey, here's a here's a Starbucks gift card, go get a coffee on me. Like, just wanted to say thank you. And and and I always tell them was like, I know we we don't do it for the reward, but it's really nice to get rewards. awarded from time to time and just to say, Hey, I've noticed that you've done you've done this this bit of leadership. You don't always have to spend money. I'll I'll tell you, a card and a letter goes a very, very long way. ⁓ yeah. These kids don't get a lot of like physical ⁓ and I like I like handing it to them, but I really like sending to them in the mail because nobody ever really gets mail. And so you know, when their mom goes, Here's a letter ⁓ from your youth pastor, that's kind of a special thing. And so that's a cool thing to do too. But celebrate the win. Yeah. However you decide to do that. speaker-0: Yeah, definitely. No, I I I totally agree. I think that's a great deal. And ⁓ especially when your student steps up and does that, that's a huge huge dynamic. And once again that brings in week three to week four of our conversation of you know, how do we how do we reach these kids? We we have students in place where it's their job to do it. ⁓ and so really, really cool. I didn't know that. ⁓ and so that's awesome. ⁓ that doesn't surprise me in the least bit 'cause that's who he is. ⁓ he knows no enemy, he knows no stranger, ⁓ and And I I wish I could say that's me, but that's just him. ⁓ so but ⁓ it's it's a it's another another group of students that are on the fringe. The new student, the student that is walking in for the first time, or the student that just moved to town, or the student that's just now going to ⁓ this school, it's a big deal. ⁓ sometimes it's the student ⁓ just moving on to the next category, sometimes it's the student who's just socially disconnected. Maybe they're not naturally outgoing. ⁓ maybe they have different interests than most of the group. Maybe they attend a different school. ⁓ that's a big dynamic in mine because I have pretty much on any given opportunity there's four high schools within ⁓ well actually five high s five high schools within driving distance of my church. ⁓ and when I say driving distance probably fifteen, twenty minutes. And so like there's a lot and we have we have people that drive from outside of that distance that still come to our church. ⁓ and so sometimes they t attend a different school. It's a it's a very, very h socially awkward dynamic when you're the only kid from another school that goes to your group. You really have to build that Hey, we're not just this school mentality real fast. ⁓ maybe they just moved into town. Like like we said with the new student. Maybe they're completely new, not only to the church, not only to the school, maybe this is a completely new community for them too. ⁓ we experience that on ev on occasion as well. We we have a Air Force base. And so we have new families move into town all the time. ⁓ and they are completely new to the community, let alone the school, the church, everything. ⁓ and then finally, maybe it's just the the youngest kid, maybe it's the up and coming sixth grader or seventh grader that's the first Wednesday in their youth group. ⁓ and they're excited to be there, but they're terrified too because they're all older and all scary and ⁓ whatever the reason they just haven't found their people yet. ⁓ and so that can make even a crowded room feel super, super lonely. ⁓ and so we have to be intentional with those students too. ⁓ one of the things that we do is like especially with the new sixth graders, ⁓ we we have a night where we invite some of our more outgoing hi ⁓ junior high and high school ⁓ to come and interact with all the sixth graders. And it's our move up night. Our our fourth and fifth grade or our children's ministry teachers kinda hand ⁓ off ⁓ to us and then we have a couple of our youth students that are the really warm, welcoming, friendly ones and the outgoing ones that come and they're the ones that really kind of start getting to know these sixth graders and like warm up to them before they come on a Wednesday night so they know names and know people in the group. and then finally one of the the next group and I th ⁓ second to last group that we're gonna talk about and this one, I mean this one's a dynamic that has to be addressed carefully. ⁓ and that's sometimes you have students that have just been hurt. ⁓ this one is important because we can misread guardedness as disinterest. ⁓ and students may keep people at a distance because keeping people at a distance feels safe. ⁓ maybe they've experienced rejection, maybe they had a friendship fall apart, maybe they've been embarrassed before, maybe they had a bad church experience, maybe they trusted someone and regretted it. Now they're cautious. I mean, there's so many different things. that can happen with this. And so when you approach them for the first time and you're like, hey, what's up? You know, so glad you could make it, kinda you don't immediately get much back. you get short answers, shrug shoulders, I don't know, I'm fine. And after a few attempts, it can be really, really easy to kind of just be like, well, I tried. but sometimes that student isn't saying, leave me alone. That student's saying, Hey, are you actually gonna stick around? So it's it's a huge dynamic that has to be there. And I mean we talk about longevity in youth ministry a lot. Like we gotta lose the stereotype of like the average youth pastor life expectancy being eighteen to twenty four months. ⁓ it's it's not healthy. ⁓ you have to you have to make a plan to be there longer, ⁓ for the sake of the kids. so with that, another group you have to be careful with. Sometimes this is not a group that you want to six students on. Sometimes this is a this is the group that you need to handle yourself or you need to have adult leaders that are trained ⁓ to handle these conversations because they might start talking. And last thing you want is the shocked, surprised like, ⁓ my gosh, this happened face to make them feel isolated and even more of an outcast. So ⁓ just we've we I I feel like we can kind of go I I mean this I I don't want to sound disrespectful, but I I feel like we can move past this one 'cause we've talked about this a lot recently ⁓ in the podcast. But just just the idea that like the these conversations require attention. but like it needs to probably be your attention, not not a student, because you definitely want to ⁓ monitor reaction and engagement and everything else. ⁓ just to make sure they get and know what's needed, kind of thing like that. and then finally, maybe you just have the kid that's hiding in plain sight. Maybe it's the younger sibling, maybe it's the kid that ha is drugged to church by their parents that is just like, For the love, leave me alone, I'm gonna be on my phone over here in the corner. ⁓ don't talk to me, don't engage me whatsoever. I'm here because I have to be. and I think we all have those students too. ⁓ and this is pr this is kind of dual threat, the hardest group to notice, but also the hardest group to actually get anywhere with. ⁓ they're participating, sometimes they laugh at funny stuff, they play the game if they have to, they sit in group because you make they know everybody's names because they've grown up in church. They know all the all the kids, they but nobody really knows them. ⁓ they're physically present but relationally distant. And that's why we can't assume that attendance equals belonging. Because even though they're there, they're not. ⁓ and so that's a that's a it's a another one that really, really has to be kind of an intentional breakdown of walls. you have to go out of your way to find what's what their interests are and how you can uniquely serve them in that capacity. ⁓ it's a it's a big, big deal. Sometimes the loneliest students in your ministry might be the students who never miss a week. And that's kind of terrifying. 'Cause you start thinking through all the students that you have that never miss and you're like, ⁓ who who am I who am I missing? So why do students stay on the edge? David, obviously we want to reach the students on the fringe. and we have to resist the temptation to immediately interpret their behavior. But like why do you think students stay there? I mean, why do you think the students want to be on the side and just I cut ⁓ I'm I mean, is it safe to say fear involvement? I mean speaker-1: Yeah, I I think more times than not, as the person who likes to be in the back and unnoticed. I I don't always think that it's an intentional thing. I think sometimes there's just a lot of fear and doubt and insecurity and it's not it's not because you're doing anything wrong as a leader or as a as a group. sometimes there's just You know, for me personally, I never this may sound a little off topic, but I think it I think it fits, is like I don't ever doubt that God is everything that he says that he is. But I oftentimes doubt my ability to carry out the things that God wants me to do. I have all the faith in the world in speaker-0: Not doubt in speaker-1: But I doubt myself in every every aspect. And so I think for students, a lot of times they'll feel really lonely because they doubt that they have anything to offer. and so many times, like, and I'm really I've wrestled with this my whole life. I've I know that God wants to use me. But I really struggle with the confidence of believing that I'm worthy of that. ⁓ of feeling like I have I really honestly have anything to of value. And and and honestly, this podcast is another one of those for me. It's like we're having conversations like and we're gett we're offering up advice and wisdom. on how to run a youth ministry. And more times than not, I feel like a failure as a youth pastor. Like and the the sheer amount of imposter syndrome I have, even doing this and talking to you guys now, like what do I really know about youth ministry? And and and so it's easy for me to sort of withdraw and go, I don't have anything worthy of offering. And I think for if I can feel that way, certainly our students can feel that way. You know? And so If you know one of the one of the best ways to to notice which students feel isolated is pay attention to the kids that are not playing the game that you have. ⁓ more times than not, the ones that are most isolated are the ones that feel like they have nothing to offer in a game. And unless there is a prize to be obtained, you will find the students that are on the friends more in a game than almost anything else. Because you You got those kids that are like Uber freak athletes that look like they can beat you 18 different ways, and that is intimidating to an isolated kid. It's just the truth. ⁓ now there are obviously a whole lot of other ways, but it's like, so why do they stay? More times than not, it's just because they don't think that they have anything to offer. And and that sounds really simple because you know, us as leaders, we're like, you have a bunch to offer. They don't believe that. More times than not, they don't believe that. And you know how many times I've heard people say, I have something to offer? I wanna believe ⁓ I do. It's not that I'm choosing to not believe. It's just that I don't. And and it's a hard thing to to get get through, a big hurdle. And so I think and then the other side of it is is ⁓ that goes I think hand in hand with the fear and the anxiety is the fear of rejection ultimately. No not just students, nobody wants to feel rejected. When you put yourself out there, it's a vulnerable thing. And It's like, yeah, what if I what if I try to join in and they don't want me or or what if what if I don't know how to do it or what if I mess up or what if I upset somebody? And so it's easier to not try than to put yourself out there and be rejected. ⁓ and sure. And so we just choose not to try. speaker-0: Yeah. No, I mean d yeah, I I I definitely think so. And I I think a lot of times we see disengagement and just we're like, Well, they don't care. Like, I'm just gonna let them kinda sit over there and do their own thing. But s a lot of times it might just be like you said, kind of fear of fear of like imposter syndrome or fear of rejection or there's a lot of fears that come into play. It's like, you know, if I try to join them and they don't want me like speaker-1: Mm-hmm. speaker-0: I'll feel worse than I do right now, so I'd rather just stay with where what I'm feeling and where I am right now. And a lot of this is based off of past experience. Maybe they've tried this before. Maybe they've tried the conversation and felt ignored. Maybe they came to an event and nobody talked to them. we can't always know the experiences that students bring through the doors, and that's why patience matters. ⁓ they don't like they don't know how to enter the group. They don't know how to enter conversations. That's a huge dynamic that we miss a lot of times. ⁓ and it's super, super easy to overlook because they sometimes students want to be involved, they just genuinely don't know how. Yeah. ⁓ social skills, unfortunately, is a dying skill ⁓ w with the rise of technology and social media and everything else, like they don't know how to talk to each other anymore. And we've seen this over the last decade. ⁓ like students are just becoming social outcasts because they they can't have a face to face conversation anymore. ⁓ they feel much more comfortable texting in the same room. And it's wild. ⁓ and so you gotta think about it though. Like if there's six cer sti six students in a circle talking If you're already in the circle, the conversation seems easy, but if you're standing ten feet away thinking, Man, how do I get into that? Like that can be crippling. So we have to be careful and instead of saying, Hey, why don't you go hang out with those guys over there? We need to walk them over, we need to introduce them, and we need to give them a connection point. speaker-1: I think we also Again going back to student leaders, I I my mind always goes to who can we elevate? Who can, you know, and I'm train your students to pay attention outside of their circle. Always be paying attention. Because here's the thing, like ⁓ more times than not the connection point is gonna be somebody inside that circle going, hey, what's up? Let's widen the circle and and come on in, you know, kind of situation. Like I again I I can't tell you how many times that makes all the difference. Like, you know I Going back to the the situation ⁓ with C at the poll this morning, had any of the groups just looked around and saw her, I guarantee you I would have never had to say a word. Yeah. We have enough students that were there that w wouldn't have wanted anybody praying by themselves. But it's really easy to like get in your circle and just, you know, you're talking, you're having fun, you're whatever. And and at the end of the day, like they're not always gonna be on, so to speak. But train your students, train your leaders especially, ⁓ to be Paying attention, you know, and that takes effort, that takes intentionality. But you have some students that are really, really good at that. Sometimes they just need a reminder. And so, you know, every once in while I like to get with the ones that I know are really, really good at that and remind them, hey, this morning I'm noticing we've got a couple of new ones. Just keep your keep your eye open, you know, make sure that they're they feel welcome and involved. And they do a phenomenal job. I usually don't have to say it a second time. Time. ⁓ We as youth pastors again, we see the overall vision and we see, ⁓ there's four new guys. I don't know who they are, I don't know how they're connected. Go remind those students that are really good at making sure they feel welcome to keep their eyes open the entire night. Yeah. You know, ⁓ because sometimes it's not as easy as one person can can give their entire night to this student. So in those particular situations, just say, speaker-0: Sure. speaker-1: Hey, eyes up, pay attention. ⁓ because they may be right outside your circle and you don't realize it because they're behind you. And so if you're keeping your eyes open, you're like, hey, what's up? Come on, come join us, you know, or whatever. Sometimes that's all they need is that connectional point, and then from there they feel comfortable to start talking. But then at that point, once they're in the circle, then again remind them, Hey, what do you think? Or how was your day? Or hey, have you ever played like, have you ever played this game? No, okay, cool. Let me explain that game, you know, and then you get them talking. I mean I mean there's a million things that can happen, different scenarios and stuff from that point. But yeah ⁓ keep your eyes on a sw head on a swivel, so to speak. speaker-0: Sure. Yeah. And so I mean I I think I think that's good. ⁓ student involvement is always gonna be first and foremost, but we as leaders still have to keep our eyes out. Yep. We have to keep our focus because as David said, sometimes they're just not gonna see ⁓ and and we need to. ⁓ and so how do we reach students on the fringe? I think it kinda narrows down to four points ⁓ that we're gonna kinda go through fairly quickly. First one is notice consistently. ⁓ there's a difference between noticing someone once and making them feel This can be easy as saying, hey, what's up whoever, like throw in a name every single time they walk in the door. Super, super easy. Feeling seen happens through consistency. Learn their name, use their name, remember what they told you, notice when they're absent. It's not hard. secondly, approach gently. ⁓ sometimes our desire to include students can accidentally overwhelm them. ⁓ and we see a quiet kid think ⁓ you see a kid that's quiet and you're like, ⁓ I can get this kid connected and I guilty of this because I'm the complete opposite of David. I don't think about that. I'm like, ⁓ hey, like come get involved. ⁓ 'cause that's my mentality, bulldoze and then ask questions later. and suddenly you have three volunteers that have surrounded them asking them twelve questions, dragging them into a game and introducing them to seventeen people and they're like, Okay, I would like to leave now ⁓ because it's overwhelming. So you have to be careful. Our goal isn't to force connection, it's to create opportunities for it. We're not forcing, we're creating opportunities. Start small. Hey, good to see you. Then maybe, hey, how's your week? Like, if the answer's fine, that's okay. Move on. You don't have to have every interaction be a counseling session. Sometimes trust growth grows through dozens of ordinary conversations before you ever have a significant one. Third, don't take resistance personally. Okay? This matters for leaders. This is this is definitely one I have learned from. You may invest in a student that doesn't respond. You ask questions, you get a shrug. You invite them, no. You text them, two word response. You sit beside them, they're quiet. Like don't immediately assume that your effort isn't working. Students don't owe us immediate vulnerability. We have to earn trust just like everybody else. So our job is to remain appropriately present without becoming pushy. And there may ne become a day where that student needs someone, and the reason they come to you is because six months you've quietly communicated I'm here. And then finally, David's I kind of already said this one, but this one's huge. Celebrate the small steps. But celebrate like with your leaders, celebrate with that kid if it's a opp opportune moment for it. We need to redefine progress with fringe students. Maybe they didn't suddenly become the most outgoing student in the ministry, but maybe they stayed five minutes longer than they normally do. Maybe they participated in the game. Sometimes that is the most astronomically huge win that you can ever have. when you have the kid that never joins a game, ha play the game and have fun playing the game. Like that is such a huge win. Maybe they answered one small group question out loud. And you're just like, you talked? Holy cow. Like sometimes that's it. Like that is the win. Yeah and we have to be okay with that. speaker-1: Mm-hmm. And I think we have to be really careful with that response too, 'cause I have seen some students that are like, ⁓ my gosh, I can't believe you talked and they go, ⁓ my bad, and then they don't talk again. Mm-hmm. So we do have to it can be. And so so in those moments when somebody answers out loud, be like, Man, I really love your insight on that. Like, would you mind expanding on that just a little bit? Like like help me understand just a little little bit more and they go, Well, ⁓ speaker-0: Yeah, it's a it's a double edged sword for speaker-1: You know, and maybe they don't always have more it but you like I really like that. Well, keep thinking about that. I would love to hear more later. That invites them to answer another question down the road. Sure. They may not have more to expand. They might be like, well, that was it. ⁓ well, I really liked your answer. Like that was really cool. Like I wow, you're you're really smart. Like you really know your stuff. Again, so so now it's not like ⁓ they talked. It's could you tell me more? Yeah. It's so subtle, but it can really make a difference in somebody feeling comfortable down the road because now they feel like they have something to offer. They may not have something specifically more to give to this specific thing, but now they know I have something to offer and they might be looking for a way to answer down the road. Yeah. And or maybe a different question, maybe a different day altogether. Sure. ⁓ but then afterwards you can take them aside and say, Hey, thank you, thank you for your answer. I really loved that. That was really cool. Yeah. Easy way to sell speaker-0: No and it it's a huge dynamic that you have to do. And then the others like just two other ideas of celebrating wins. Maybe they initiated a conversation or maybe they volunteered to help with something. Like and you're just like, ⁓ my gosh. Like once again you don't wanna do the you spoke, but like maybe like maybe they did reach out of their comfort. ⁓ I had two kids as sixth graders, they wouldn't talk at all. They were twins. And now one of them literally opens every single Wednesday night with the scripture of the day and then talks about what that scripture means and then opens us in prayer before worship and then the other one's a small group leader. You never know what will happen, but both of them when they were sixth grade would not talk to me, let alone anybody else in the group. Because they were just like, We don't we don't do that. We don't talk to anybody and it was just like they completely came out of their shell and it took a lot of intention and a lot of opportunities. And the first time they spoke, man, we listened, we heard, we challenged when appropriate. ⁓ and they've turned into two of our most dynamic leaders in the high school. ⁓ and two as freshmen, two leaders that even the upperclassmen look to when they answer questions and they're like, ⁓ well yeah, that's that wow, yeah, that's a good ⁓ huh. And so like it's a super super big deal. So don't dismiss those moments. Celebrate them, celebrate the wins. And for that student, it might be enormous. Point is don't measure every student's connection. by the personality of your most outgoing student. You cannot use your most outgoing student as a gauge on success. speaker-1: It's an unfair curve. speaker-0: Yes. So with that finally also build like we've talked about cultivating a culture all week all month. And so like the idea is here's where this becomes bigger than one youth pastor. You have to train your volunteers and you give ⁓ a simple assignment. Look for the one. Look for the one who's standing alone, who's sitting alone, who's new, who's usually unusually quiet. Look for that opportunity and go see those students on the edge. Okay. Really, really simple. I think we've already hit this really, really well. But like you have to train leaders, both adult and student, like go find the one. It's biblical. Jesus did it too. ⁓ and so like you have to deploy them though to notice those people. This connects beautifully to the way that Jesus noticed people in crowds. Jesus could be surrounded by people and still see the person that was overlooked by everybody else. That should shape how we lead. We can do this by creating smaller entry points. We can follow up outside of ministry night. ⁓ we can pair students intentionally and David's talked about this a lot. ⁓ just the idea of like ha you have the students that are at the outgoing ones, you have the students that are like willing to be the one that like stays with them for the week or stays with them or touches base with them n like the next day at school. All those things are huge. Like but if you have it, use it. If you don't have it, train up students to get there. speaker-1: I think it's worth mentioning too, don't just assume because they're outgoing that they want to help people. Sometimes they could just be a big personality, but they have no like so that might mean you have to actually again go in going into that training kind of thing. Like they might be willing, but they might need just because they're social butterflies doesn't necessarily mean that they feel comfortable leading another because that's the that is what's happening is they're leading. And so speaker-0: Which is why coaching should happen in every session. speaker-1: Exactly. I think it's really easy to go, ⁓ well that person is really good at talking to people. Now go get ⁓ And they're like, ⁓ what do I say? What do I do? And now now all of a sudden it's being flipped a little bit and your and your outgoing person now feels uncomfortable. And that energy is gonna be no I will tell you, if they are a quiet person, they're noticing. Yeah. And and I just think Make sure you're coaching too. Don't just assume they know they have all the tools and the resources. speaker-0: Hundred percent. No, and that's a that's a huge dynamic that has to be addressed. And the thing is, is like we have to develop a culture where our core students understand when someone new walks through the doors, we move towards them, not away from them. That's maturity, that's leadership, that's hospitality, and that's discipleship. Like we have to do it. So what happens when the fringe student doesn't become a success story? ⁓ there's one more thing that we have to talk about ⁓ and it's that. Like, what happens ⁓ because like youth ministry leaders love transformation stories. I just told you about the sixth graders that turned into the dynamic leaders as freshmen. sometimes it doesn't happen though. The student who came in completely disconnected, like sometimes you have this magical story where they find friends, they join a small group, they start serving, they became leaders, and now they're the star speaker at Senior Sunday. It happens. But that's not everybody's story. So sometimes you invest in a student and they still leave. Sometimes you never ⁓ li is sometimes the student never becomes outgoing, sometimes they never join your leadership team, sometimes their attendance remains inconsistent, sometimes they don't respond the way you hoped. We have to be careful that we don't make our care conditional on their responses. We still care for them regardless. And we're still there for them regardless. And we don't notice students because we're trying to turn them into ministry success stories. We notice them because they're people, they bear God's image, and they matter. It's our responsibility to show faithfulness. We move towards people, we create opportunities, we invite, we listen, we care, we pray, and we always keep the door open. We trust God with what happens next, and that's incredibly freeing because it means the quiet conversation in the hallway matters even when you never see where it leads. speaker-1: Remember that we're not always the one to see from Tilved Ground. All the way up to sprouting. I'm my role may only be to till the ground and somebody else is going to do the next step and all the way until they actually get there. Hopefully they get there. It may not be in your time, it may not be in your ministry, it may not be in your church, and that is okay. You know, we have to ultimately it comes down to having that kingdom mindset of if if a stud like This is a hard one and and gets us in a lot of troubles with our churches, so be careful. But like sometimes I I remember specifically a student in a ministry when I was ⁓ serving New Mexico. What he wanted to do, we were not equipped for. He wanted he wanted to be able to to run sound and media and all of we just didn't have it at the time. ⁓ it was something I was building towards. ⁓ but there was a church that was desperately needing somebody who could run a student that could run their media. And so what did I do? I took them to that other church and said, hey, I would love to get you in contact with their youth and worship pastor. I think that you would be able to serve this church really, really well. Did it suck? Yeah, it sucked. I wanted that student at our church and I thought I would love to give them give him what he needed. We didn't have it. And he could wait around for us to build it, or I could take him to a place that already had it, and that he could get in and serve right away and be boots on the ground immediately. Sure. And I'll tell you, that kid thrived there. did I get in trouble with my leadership? Yep, sure did. And they were like, what do you mean you marched a student to another church? He served better there. His he he was better served there. And guess what? His family was never gonna come to our church. But because he started serving there, they they did feel comfortable there. That was just the dynamic. That was the truth. And did it hurt? Yeah, of course it hurt. But there was also there was also some level of gratification because here's the thing. I could I could let him flail until he stops coming and doesn't go to church and never plugs in at all. Or I could get him in a place where he could serve and his family could get plugged in and start serving and and doing some incredible things. By the way, that kid is still serving in ministry. ⁓ he is actually a worship pastor now, ⁓ which is phenomenal. ⁓ I don't really have that much to do with it. All I did was open a door. Sure. If you don't have it, it's okay to let them go somewhere else. Because at the end of the day, if their church, you know, if if if they get plugged in, they're serving, and they get to s you know, that's a win for the kingdom. We all win. Like we gotta stop making it about us versus them and just go, if that church is better, if they're better served at that church, be okay with that. Yeah. And and take the flax that's gonna come. And maybe there won't be. I mean, maybe you're in a great position in a church that goes, hey, that was the unselfish to do. unselfish thing to do, way to go. And they might celebrate you for that. And that's awesome if that happens. But if you get chastised for it, just remind them. We gotta be about the kingdom and not just about about growing our our thing. We wanna grow, but hey I was faithful with that and I think God God will God will continue to work in us and and God will raise up a different leader for us and that's gonna be okay, you know? And so just be willing to to be uncomfortable and do the hard thing too, ⁓ because sometimes the thing we want selfishly isn't the right thing. Yeah. speaker-0: No, definitely. And I I think that's huge. And students aren't projects. They're people to love. So, like, we have to keep that in mind. We're not these are not projects. We're not trying to get them to f completion. We're not trying to get them to a finished goal because that's not gonna happen. ⁓ like our goal is a step in the journey of their life. Whatever that step might be, it might be completely different for every kid in your youth program. ⁓ and so speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: As we close, 'cause we're almost at the hour mark, ⁓ l I just wanted to take a few minutes and kind of recap the month. so week one, we said attendance isn't the same thing as belonging. ⁓ we challenged ourselves to stop asking how many students came and start asking how many students are actually known. Week two, we talked about creating safe and sacred spaces because students aren't going to become in students aren't going to become vulnerable in environments where they don't feel safe. Week three, we talked about helping students find their place, moving from you're welcome here towards you matter here. ⁓ and now we finish with the conversation on students on the fringe and students on the edge. And because here's a test of everything we've talked about. What happens when the student doesn't naturally find their way into the center? Do we notice? Do we move towards them? Do we make room? Do we stay patient? Do we keep showing up? Do we un or do we unintentionally build a ministry that works well for students who already know how to belong? That's the question that's worth wrestling with because it's possible to have an incredibly close youth group that is incredibly difficult to enter. And if that's the case, we haven't built a culture of belonging, we've built something completely different. So here's something practical I'd encourage every student ministry leader listening to this ⁓ and your team to do this week. Stand somewhere different. Don't stand where you normally do. Don't be in the same normal place that you are. At your next gathering, don't immediately go towards the students that you know well. Stand somewhere where you can see the room. Look towards the edges, see who's alone, see who's hovering, see who's looking at their phone because they don't know what else to do, who's new, who's used to be connected but suddenly isn't, who keeps coming but nobody really knows, and then move towards them. Not because they're a problem to solve, not because you have to get them plugged in, because they matter. Maybe you have an incredi maybe you won't have an incredible conversation. Maybe you do. Maybe all you get is hey, and that's okay. Come back next week. Because culture aren't cultures aren't created through one giant movement. They're created through repeated behavior week after week after week. And if we want a culture of belonging, one of those behaviors has to become we notice people. We move towards people, we make room for people. Especially the people who are easiest to overlook, because the edges of your youth ministry matter just as much as the center of it does. So a culture of belonging isn't complete until the students on the edges know that there's room for them too. So, as we say pretty much every episode every week, ⁓ thank you for listening. We've had a tremendous influx of listeners over the last little bit. ⁓ shout out to like it's it's wild. ⁓ we have listeners in so many countries that we have no idea why you'd find us or listen to us, but we are super super grateful. Shout out Finland and Canada and Japan and ⁓ China and Iraq and like all kinds of random listens and random countries. ⁓ in the last week it said that forty percent of our ⁓ listens was ⁓ from like the China. speaker-1: Iraq and Iran. speaker-0: area in India and Nepal and like so which is wild. That's such a such I I can't even wrap my head around that. But thank you. How does that work? I don't know. But with that being said, like it's super, super cool. We're super grateful that you're taking time to listen and all we ask is that you share this with your youth pastor friends. and like man, just share it share an episode that you like, share this episode. ⁓ we don't advertise. This is just a word of mouth podcast. ⁓ we are speaker-1: Translated? speaker-0: almost at twenty two thousand listens overall, which is crazy to me. ⁓ but it's such a cool opportunity and we are super grateful for the all that listen. And so that's all we ask. Two things. We want to hear from you. You can comment on any of the social media platforms. You can use at talk student men. You can send us a message or you can email us podcast at student ministry conversations dot org. We'd love to say hi. We'd love to visit and we'd love to be that listening year for you if you don't have one. And then secondly, like I said, word of mouth is our go-to. That's how we get this podcast out to other people. So please feel free to share. With that being said, I'm going to close this in prayer, and we hope that you have a great week. God give us eyes ⁓ to see the students that we might otherwise overlook. Help us notice the students standing alone, the students who has the student who stopped engaging, the student who is new. The student who keeps showing up without ever really feeling connected. Give us patience to build trust slowly. Keep us from measuring students by how quickly they respond to us. Teach us to listen well, to move toward people gently, and to love without expecting something in return. Give our volunteers eyes for the one. Help our students become people who make room for others, and then create within our ministry. communities, places where students don't have to fight to be noticed and earn a place. May our ministries reflect the way that you see and pursue people. And may every student who walks in the doors encounter leaders who communicate through words and actions. We see you, you matter, and there is room for you. Be with us as we meet on whatever ministry night we have this week. ⁓ and God, we just pray that your presence is felt in all of our meetings. ⁓ God, may we feel your presence as the youth pastor. ⁓ and God just continue to give us wisdom and direction and discernment on what you have for us in our ministries at hand. We thank you and we love you. Amen.