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Ghostwriter Alice Sullivan on Writing a Compelling Memoir · The Daily Writer

• 0:32
  SPEAKER_03: Hey my friend, welcome to this weekend edition episode of the Daily Writer Podcast.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_03: As writers, we love to tell stories.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_03: Whether you're writing fiction or nonfiction, stories are a critical part of how we share information and help other people engage in the human experience.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe you've thought about doing the ultimate deep dive in storytelling, which is writing your own story by creating a memoir.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_03: Well, my guest today is here to give us guidance on writing a compelling memoir.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_03: Her name is Alice Sullivan, and she is a ghostwriter, collaborator, and 11-time New York Times best-selling editor.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_03: A natural-born storyteller, she's written 54 books and edited over 1,300 titles.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_03: She specializes in nonfiction, specifically memoir, self-help, and personal growth.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_03: Alice helps clients identify their goals and messages while creating engaging content to connect with their target markets, and her favorite projects are those that challenge her point of view and expand her knowledge.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_03: I've got to tell you, I first got to know Alice through my writing and business mentor, Honoree Quarter.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_03: And Alice is not just a consummate storyteller and writer, she's also one of the most kind and down-to-earth people that I know.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_03: Now, a couple of months ago, I mentioned here on the podcast that I was working on my father's Vietnam memoir.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_03: And this was my opportunity here in this conversation to ask Alice everything that I wanted to know about memoirs, and I gotta tell you, she did not disappoint.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_03: So in this interview, we discussed topics like how to find the narrative thread or the theme in a story, how to figure out the structure of a memoir, where to begin and end a memoir, how to structure a chapter and the transitions between chapters, and who some of Alice's favorite authors are.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_03: So if you like to read memoirs or you have ever considered writing your own memoir, or you do client work and you might write a client memoir, I hope that this conversation will inspire you.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_03: I had an absolute blast talking with Alice, as I always do because she's so brilliant and such a wonderful author and storyteller.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_03: So let's get to the conversation with my friend, Alice Sullivan.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_03: Alice, I'm so thrilled to be chatting with you again on the podcast.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_03: You are part of the two or three-timer club as far as guests on the Daily Writer Podcast.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_03: I that's a club I just made up just now.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_03: But you are one of the members.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate it.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: I am glad to be here.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'll do it as many times as you invite me.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: I love this.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I love to have people on the show who I respect and admire and who have a lot of interesting things to share about something connected with writing.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_03: And you're you're one of the people who um I know every time, and it's not just on the podcast, anytime that I talk to you, I always learn something.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, so I consider that um, you know, I try to have more of those people in my life.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_03: So I I appreciate you being part of my world and having been a guest before as well.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_03: So thanks for being here.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for inviting me.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm having you on the show today to talk specifically about writing memoir.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_03: And obviously, you're a ghostwriter.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_03: We both do this weird thing called ghostwriting that is a mystery to most people out there.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_03: And you've written a lot of memoirs and I am currently working on my father's Vietnam memoir.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_03: And this is something I'm really excited about, but I've never done a straight up well, I guess that's not true.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_03: I have done a couple memoir type things, but this is like a straight up memoir about a certain sort of segment of his life.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_03: So I've got a few questions I'm I'm curious to hear your answers on and reflections on because you are the expert in this.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_02: So um ask away.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_03: I'm excited.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_03: So I guess my first question is how do you really define what a memoir is and is not, and what is different than a memoir versus a traditional nonfiction book in your mind?
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: So if you go by the definitions online, memoir is a story of a person's life or um a topical recounting of, you know, either a specific time in their life, a specific event.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, some people write memoirs that are all about um, you know, car races they've gone to throughout their whole life.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: So it can be topical, it can be defined by a period of time, but it is memoir specifically is someone writing about their own memories, their own experiences.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas nonfiction in general is similar in that the person, the author is still writing about their own experiences.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, whereas memoir is their personal life, they could also write a business book, a leadership book, and that would be their experiences with those topics.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes they can be a mix of memoir and business leadership, or memoir and whatever it is.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_03: That's a popular genre too, which I love.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: It really is.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, business leadership, memoir.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think books that combine a memoir element do so much better because it if if I don't understand who you are and where you're coming from, I'm less invested in the um the information you're telling me.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: But if I can if I can feel a bond in some way with the author because they're sharing at least a little bit of their backstory, I'm much more likely to continue reading the full book and retain the information.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_03: So as a ghostwriter, whenever you are talking with somebody, you you've you know agreed to do a book, you've got this project that you're doing, it's you've agreed it's going to be a memoir type of a deal.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_03: When you are talking with people and learning about their story and what they want to accomplish with the book, what is your process for finding, I guess, what I would call the narrative thread or the the theme of the project?
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_03: Because uh, you know, a story can have a lot of different thematic elements, but typically in a memoir or any type of book, there has to be one singular kind of narrative thread that is kind of the backbone of the whole thing.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_03: How do you go about identifying what that theme is?
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_03: Do you rely on the person to kind of give you that to some degree?
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_03: Or are there times when you're sort of sifting through the sandbox of their memories in their life and you come across something and you're like, bingo, that's it.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_03: How does that process work for you?
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: So a little of both.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: Honestly, I would say a good portion of people come to me and they already have an idea of the theme, whatever that is.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: So they have an idea of the overarching story they want to tell.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they have scenes in their mind that are pivotal.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, those are a little bit easier, I have to say.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: But sometimes people come and they say, I know I've been wanting to write the story for 10 years, I want to share my life experiences, but they don't have a clear direction as to what topic uh they want to focus on or what that through line is.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so in those cases, the first, you know, sometimes five, six, seven interviews are basic basically a brain dump and they just tell me everything and they go on rabbit trails and I ask leading questions to try and get more information.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: But in those, in those cases, I'm just letting them talk.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: And if if I hear something that sounds like a pattern, like a recurring theme or similarities in different you know, periods of their life, I will hone in on that and make notes and ask a few more questions.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: But sometimes it takes me, you know, a number of interviews and then sifting back through the content to figure out all right, this is a puzzle.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: What are the, you know, what are the pieces?
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: Where are the edges?
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: What are the major topics and themes?
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and sometimes there's more than one, honestly.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so I will come up with a rough outline of, you know, here are some ideas for how I think your story could evolve.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: We start here, these are the topics, we end here.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'll present that to the client and see what sits right with them, what feels best, what feels most true.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then the next round of questioning is a lot more specific based on that outline.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: So, to your question, most people come to me and they have an idea.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: When they don't, we just talk and talk and talk until I have enough information that I believe I can put together an outline that is both entertaining and marketable.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_03: And that is the challenge, isn't it?
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_03: Where sometimes you see things that are part of a story that don't really connect with maybe the marketing aspect of a book.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_03: So I guess that is kind of we we sort of wear both the artist hat and the marketing hat, which and then you know, you have like what the client wants, and if you're working with a publisher, you have what the publisher wants and what the editor wants, what you as the the ghostwriter feel like the thing should be.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_03: So it's it's kind of I find the the whole the whole process kind of like putting together a giant puzzle where you have all these things that that need to be satisfied.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it's really fun and a big challenge to figure out how do you meet all these things in a satisfactory way while still accomplishing all the goals and making a great product in the process.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think for people who do what we do, like you and I are both problem solvers.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_03: And so really that isn't that what this process just boils down to ultimately.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: That is what it is.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: We are helping somebody solve, and I don't want to call you know somebody's life story a problem, but we are we're helping them connect the dots in their own story.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: And and you may experience this as well, is that sometimes in the process of writing their memory, their memoir, you know, a lot of that is cathartic because they're having to relive whatever the things were, but they can have aha moments in the process of talking through it that help them in the long run.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so, in a lot of ways, what you and I do, you know, it is very literary, it's very cranial, but it's also sometimes like therapy.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's a really cool thing.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: So um what I find overall is that people are very thankful and willing to engage in the process when they see progress being made and they understand your story is gonna help so many other people.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: So even if it's scary in the process of retelling it, let's go ahead and do it.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I think it gives it more value sometimes to the person.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like they've lived it once, and that may have been really difficult.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: But packaging it and presenting it in a way where they are the the hero of their own stories is very empowering.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_03: It is really interesting to me, and now you have a lot more experience in negotiating than I do.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_03: I've only been doing this really full-time for you know just a year or two.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um what has been really surprising to me is that you can be working with somebody who is highly accomplished in their field, whether it's a business person or that they do whatever.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_03: But then when it comes to the process of sort of extracting these memories and these ideas and them putting themselves out there, there's a lot of fear involved.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the things that has been surprising to me is how important it is to reassure people, even when you're the one who's doing the writing, to reassure them that it's gonna be okay.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_03: This is gonna help people, this is gonna be great, it's it's painful at times, it's a little scary, it's something new and different, but this is gonna be a really, really great process.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_03: So I love your analogy of therapy.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_03: I think that is so true.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it it is it is very true.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's very similar to that.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, some of our clients have gone through actual therapy and and coaching, and some have not.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: And that's you know, not for me to decide.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there are times actually that I, if it's a very intense trauma memoir, I will actually ask the person if they do have um a partner to talk to or a counselor or a therapist, because I have seen, I've seen, um, I've seen some things.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: I've had a few clients who've actually gone into therapy or gone into rehab in the process of writing their books because everything was so triggering.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: So that that is um, you know, I I feel now, you know, this many years into my career, I feel like that is sort of a disclaimer I add on the front end is that, you know, sometimes this is going to be uncomfortable.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: And do you have a team around you to talk through things when you know times get tough?
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_03: So maybe that should be a part of the whenever you get into ghostwriting or doing this kind of client work, it should be part of the job description that you really need to have some measure of intuition and empathy and listening skills because it seems like that's a pretty large part of what we do is just listening and being able to pick up on those little things.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_03: And you really have to have kind of a finely tuned emotional frequency to be able to pick up on those things with people and I think it helps patient and empathetic.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it definitely helps.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: Being a good listener, uh, an active listener, all of those things are very helpful.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: Knowing, um, you know, being able to put yourself in the other person's brain almost, you know, like anticipating if if they experienced XYZ, what would I experience in that, you know, in that instance, and then ask those questions um to find out more information.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: So it is, I don't know, it's just it's such a cool thing that we do.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm honored that people trust me to tell me their stories.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: And um I'm sure as you've discovered, people will tell us things that they haven't even told their family members.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's shocking sometimes.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that point you mentioned earlier of the questions that come up, they they sure do.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, they come up at the start, of course.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: I experience a lot of the questions at the start, like, oh my gosh, what what are people gonna say?
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: What is my family gonna say?
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but then I find when you're almost like three-fourths of the way done, that comes back again because now they can see the finish line, they know the end is near, and oh my gosh, they're imagining themselves on stage or doing podcasts or with the finished book in their hands, and it makes it all the more real to them.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: So they have sort of that second wave of holy crap, what am I doing?
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_03: It is scary, you know, it's scary at the beginning, and then when the product when the product is out there, it's scary all over again because it's like, oh my gosh, this is actually gonna go out somewhere.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_03: People are gonna read this and maybe they'll judge me for it and they'll leave a review on Amazon or they'll do whatever.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_03: But so so many more people are helped by the process than you know the the the negativity that can come from something.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, there is always that risk, I guess, but so many more people are helped by a great book and a great story that's well told, yes, than than people who are negative about it.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there are always gonna be trolls who are just mad for the sake of being mad.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's fine, it happens.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_03: So once you have once you have a sense of the story, maybe you've done a lot of interviews, you have hundreds of thousands of words of transcript, which we all sort of have to wade through.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_03: What is your process for determining the structure of a book or or of a memoir?
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um, do you think in terms of something like hero's journey or a three-act structure, or is there some type of framework or template that is your go-to way of organizing things, or does it just depend on the project?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: It definitely depends on the project.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: Some of them really do fit well into the hero's journey, although I find that women's stories in particular, uh, and I don't know why that is, that you know, the hero's journey is is somewhat linear.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's ups and downs, but there are points to go through.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: And then at the end, you know, you've arrived with the elixir, right?
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um women's stories are often circular in ways.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so where the hero's journey, you're going through the woods, sometimes in women's memoir, there's a lot of coming back and replaying and um going through maybe when especially when it comes to relationships, repeating patterns.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so you're going through the same trials again and again, it's not as neat and tidy.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know why that is.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh maybe it's maybe it's just a fluke, but it depends on the project.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, sometimes the you know, the the Shakespearean act is great, sometimes Hero's Journey works, sometimes none of that works.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I will um I will pick out the most impactful events, the aha moments in that person's life.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: And there might be 10 of them, there might be 15 of them, whatever that is, and then weave the narrative through those points.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so that's not a definitive answer, other than to say every project is unique, and sometimes it's a tidy little box, and sometimes it's not, and you just have to let the story make its way through.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: I guess sometimes when I have when I have, especially when I was working with a lot more publishing houses, sometimes they have a very clear view at the start of the project as to where they want it to start, where they want it to end.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes that's even more difficult because um they're giving you parameters that feel harsh, and and you're having to manufacture the story to fit that specific narrative.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't love that.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, that's fine when it happens, but I sometimes the story is just going to be what the story is gonna be, and you find the the points along the way for the reader to connect to.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_03: That that is kind of a challenge because you have the the marketing people at the publisher or the I guess really the acquisitions editor or whoever's filling that role at first.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_03: Then eventually you have the marketing people who kind of want to have their take on it.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_03: But then you have the client who is the one who is the embodiment of the story, and then you, as the writer, have to kind of be the middleman and deliver something that's that is meeting all these different things, which can really be a big challenge.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_03: So, but that's modern publishing, and we all just kind of have to live with it and figure out how to make it work.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_03: So I want to circle back for a second to this idea of I'm really intrigued by what you said about about women's stories.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_03: Do you think part of that is due to, and again, I'm radically generalizing that.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_03: But do you think it's because women tend to to process their journey or their life in terms of relationships versus the way that men tend to process things, which is more goal and not structure-oriented, but kind of like I'm gonna achieve this goal, then I'm gonna achieve this goal.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes your relationships kind of take a distant, you know, back seat or third seat.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_03: Do you does that at all play into this the structure of how maybe different people perceive their their stories or their lives?
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think so.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I I'm generalizing as well because I'm I'm not a man, but from you know, the experiences and the conversations I've had, many, many of the interviews with men, it's very much more a linear journey because they have a more linear way of thinking about things.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's I, you know, there was I set this goal, I reached it.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: I set this goal, I reached it.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: There was this obstacle, I went around it.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, I know some women's journeys are very much like that, but but I find that a lot of women's journeys are um repeating patterns and um more emotionally yoked, I guess, more emotionally charged.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes emotions are not linear.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: I guess that's the best way I can explain it.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: That in the processing of trauma, whether that is childhood abuse or divorce or you know, death or whatever it may be, those things are not tidy.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: So you can talk about them in a linear way, but if you're gonna talk about the emotions attached to those things, you don't just grieve somebody's death once on a Tuesday, and then by Friday you're you're back at work and you never think about it.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: It comes in waves, and so I think maybe that is the difference.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in a lot of the memoirs I see is that is is just the emotions are on waves and cycles, whereas sometimes goal-oriented stories are more linear.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_03: Boy, that's fascinating.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_03: I've never really thought about it in that aspect before.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna have to think about that some more, that and how that applies to different things.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_03: And and maybe some of it also is I mean, I'm I'm generalizing and I can be totally off base here, but it would you say that the majority of people who read memoir are female?
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: The majority of people who buy and read books, period.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_03: Books in general is female, but but would that would that even be higher for memoir?
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_03: Because those are just by definition a story driven kind of a deal.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's true or not, but yeah.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yes.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: And what I have found too is that sometimes when men write a memoir, instead of calling it memoir, they call it autobiography.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: So even the shift in Language is a little bit different.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: So, yes, men uh women read the majority of all memoir, period.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_03: Interesting.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_03: That's really, really interesting.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_03: So, even if you're doing so, maybe there's something to learn there where if it's if it's a memoir about a male subject or the the author is male, maybe because the majority of the readers are probably going to be female, making sure to bake in some of those kinds of elements like you're talking about.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, wherever possible, wherever possible.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, some of the some of the struggles I have had on this end of things in the interviewing process has been um not just specifically men, but most often men have never really felt comfortable talking about emotions, being in the emotional state.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so even when I when I write men's memoir, it's far far fewer emotions involved.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm you know, I'm trying to recreate a scene where somebody's mother has passed away, but the men in that instance are just probably not going to react the same way as a woman would, because a man, okay, again, like I'm you know blanket here, but I think a man would, you know, they're gonna grieve, but a lot of that is internal, where a woman is more comfortable, like ugly crying in front of the whole church.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, and those things just play out in every event throughout life, especially when you're dealing with trauma.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: People internalize things and process things and express things differently.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know, it's just something that I have witnessed over, you know, these many years.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think that it's bad or good, it just is.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's just it's just one of those interesting things that you learn when you're writing, you know, and the differences between how people express themselves.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_03: Do you ever have the experience of of doing a memoir and or I guess just generally any book with somebody, but particularly a story-driven kind of book?
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_03: Do you ever have the experience of doing the project and somehow it fundamentally changes you, or there's something about it that you've learned or taken away from that person's story, and and it changes you in some important way, or you gain some kind of insight or something like that?
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I often joke that every project I take on is a little bit of free therapy for me because I'm constantly learning.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the things that I pick up most on are people's resilience.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: I love learning how people cope with whatever it is.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: Is it bankruptcy?
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: How did you make it through?
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: Was it a divorce?
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: How did you make it through?
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: I learn most about um people's yeah, people's resiliency and how they have overcome their struggles and moved through whatever event it is.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so um those little touch points, I guess, have been the most meaningful for me.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: And and my takeaways are, you know, gosh, oh, they, you know, they experienced this and this is how they reacted.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I could totally see myself doing that.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so in those ways, I feel like I grow with every project because I have a new perspective on how to overcome something or how to push through something, or whatever it may be, I have a new perspective I hadn't considered before.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_03: I feel the same way.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_03: And and again, I've I've only done a few projects up to this point, but each one of them has I've learned a lot of things from each one.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes you learn things not to do, you know.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: And that can be just as helpful, if not more.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_03: So let me get down to the nitty-gritty here.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, I'm curious about how, okay, let's say you've structured the book, you you know what the chapters are going to be, you know.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_03: Let's say chapter seven is gonna focus on this specific instance or this specific period, whatever, whatever it is.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_03: How do you think about how you're going to begin and end a chapter in terms of you kind of know this the story, maybe you have the transcript of the call and you have the raw material?
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_03: Do you have some kind of go-to techniques or go-to things that you use to start a chapter?
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_03: Because we all know that that beginning of a chapter and the end of the chapter that leads into the next one are such critical transition points.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_03: How do you think about how to start a chapter in a really great way that just grabs the reader and forces them to keep on reading?
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: So with every book and every chapter, I visualize it as though it's a scene from CSI.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like if it's trauma really.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: So what I mean, or you know, pick pick a show, whatever it is, any sort of um, any sort of wonderful TV show, the opening scene, what is that?
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: Is it uh the middle of some chaotic action and you don't know what it is, but it scripped you in and now you have to wait and see how the story plays out?
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: Is it um, you know, is it a happy scene where there's a family sitting down for a birthday party?
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's just whatever that is, it's painting the scene, uh, constructing a scene that is intriguing enough that the reader keeps reading.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then at the end of every chapter, I do, when possible, I do like to have a bit of a cliffhanger, which is um just you know, hinting towards what might happen next, whether that's an event, an emotion, an internal thought, um, some foreshadowing, some foreboding, whatever it is, I want the reader to have the emotion of, oh, I need to turn this page, I don't want to quit reading now, and then keep going.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, for people who are visually oriented, like I am, I have a really good imagination.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so sometimes if I sit down to write a chapter, I have all that information.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like you said, I've got all the transcripts.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: It could be 30 pages of transcripts that I've got to turn into 2,500 words or 5,000 words.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I sit and I think about it.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: I, you know, I honestly I close my eyes and I sit on my little couch over here and I think about how am I going to write this as though it's an episode of a show or as though it's a mini documentary or a movie.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so to me, for whatever reason, that makes it easier for me to figure out all right, I want it to open here.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: The author is here, he's with his family, they're doing this, they're saying these things, and then it leads into this XYZ.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so for me, I, you know, and I will say I've done this for 21 years.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: So it has become easier over time.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're a person who's visually oriented and you watch a lot of TV or movies, try that technique and see if it doesn't help the process of figuring out how do how do I connect all these dots for this one chapter in a way that makes sense.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, most of the time it's going to be chronological.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do you how do you piece all these little, I don't know, little bits and pieces of the story together in a way that's you know, a natural read?
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: It flows really well, it's intriguing, and the reader wants to know more.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: So that's it, it's really practice, honestly, at that point.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_03: Whenever you put together a chapter, do you typically have one singular theme that is running through that chapter?
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_03: Or are there times when it just doesn't work to have one theme where you're tying all the stories in a chapter together?
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: I like to try and have one theme in a chapter.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: And the beauty about writing or you know, just the industry at large at this point, we have moved away from books that only have 10 chapters and they're very long to really quick snippets of you know, chapters may only be five pages, some or three, some are 10, some are 15, whatever, you know.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so as best I can, I find that topic driven or uh, you know, time period event driven or whatever it is, like little snippets of time are the best for individual chapters instead of trying to combine five years into one chapter.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_03: Because then you have to be really selective and you you feel like no matter what you're doing in that chapter, you're you're not really doing justice to anything because you're leaving so much stuff on the cutting room floor.
• 30:27
  unknown: Right.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you know, we haven't talked about this, but I think it's important to mention for people who are interested in writing or they're interested in telling your story.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: Nowhere in a memoir or an or an autobiography, you're not telling every single thing that has ever happened to you in a book.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not just like, you know, I was born on this day, and then on my first day, my parents did this, and blah, blah, blah.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you're picking, you're picking times throughout your life that you remember well, and you remember them well for one reason or the other.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, what is that through line?
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's why some people can write multiple memoirs, you know, they're they're picking different themes, different topics throughout their life and writing about that.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: David Sideris is notoriously wonderful for doing that.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: And um he just, you know, it's his, it's his one life.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: We all have this one life, but we have millions of events that have happened and hundreds of thousands of themes that we've talked about and lived through and whatever that is.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so you've got the ability to write multiple memoirs within your time frame, within your life, and they can all be different, you know, they'll all be connected in some way because it's you and you've got your backstory and your family of origin.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, some people write really successful, you know, four, five, six memoirs that are hitting the New York Times list.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's fascinating.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: But but you know, people are invested in learning more and more about this person.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so if they put out another memoir and they're talking about um music, you know, like their quest to become a rock star or whatever it is, people are gonna read that because it's a different, it's a different topic than they've experienced from this person before and they want to know more.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_03: Have you noticed any any particular qualities of memoirs that sell really well or that connect with readers versus the ones that don't?
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: Qualities.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, uh transparency is one.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: Transparency is is huge, and and by that I mean, excuse me, the ability to share what you've gone through with enough honest emotion and facts so that the reader does not feel like you're holding anything back.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: And you, of course, maybe you may be holding, excuse me, you may be holding a lot of things back.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, you don't have to share your whole story in a memoir, like you don't have to tell everything that's ever happened to you.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: But the the key is to share enough that the reader feels really connected to the message, really connected to the story.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: They don't feel like you're holding anything back and you're being honest.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes that is self-reflective and admitting where things went wrong, where you could have done better, where you made four decisions and what you did to rectify that, or what you didn't do, you know.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and yeah, the whole transparency, and I'm sure you've you've experienced this as well, is like walking somebody through what to share on the page and what not to share.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's a whole interesting conversation because people in the interview process, my my processes tell me everything that has ever happened.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: It is a safe space, nothing is going to go beyond here.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: But when we get down to picking what's in the chapters, you get to pick and choose.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you get to pick and choose what stays and what's what goes, but hearing everything helps me as a listener and a writer know how to craft the chapters.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I might see I might see patterns in somebody's story that they haven't even noticed before.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: And it's because they told me these like things that they haven't told other people.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: So it's very much a partnership and a process of working through somebody's story.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_03: So you mentioned David Sederis.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_03: Are there some other authors or specific books that are kind of your go-to books for inspiring you as a writer, as a ghostwriter, um, just as a storyteller?
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I love Anne Lamont.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um she's wonderful.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: I just love how, again, how transparent.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: She doesn't give a crap what anybody thinks about her.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm sure she does.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure she does, as we all do, but but she has learned to be so vulnerable and just say what's on her mind.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: And that really resonates with so many people because they're like, yeah, I feel the exact same way.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: I just can't say it in public like she does, but I get that.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um so she's great.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: So uh Sederis is great.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: Gosh, I have like a whole stack.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: I just have a whole stack of people.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I have a whole stack of books right here.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think when it comes to when it comes to creative storytelling, Stephen King is actually pretty good in a quirky way.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, as far as memoir goes, I I kind of read whatever you know, like whatever's on the bestseller's list, and then some.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know that I could recommend any others like specifically.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: I could send you a, you know, I could send you a list of 50 that I'm supposed to be reading next.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but the things that resonate most with me are how honest they are.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I have to say, I do love a little self-deprecation because that's also like that's my humor style.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm mine too.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I get it when somebody else can be can add humor, even in the worst moments.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like, God, that's how we survived these last two years, at least how I did, you know, like plants and self-deprecating dark humor saved my life.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I I really resonate with people who um have the capacity to make fun of themselves.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: To make a point.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_03: My philosophy is I'm gonna make fun of myself before you make fun of me.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_03: Let's just get out of the way.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_03: I know what my flaws are, you know, uh, and that kind of thing.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_03: And I think there's something kind of reassuring about being around people like that.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_03: It's like you don't really take yourself too seriously.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_03: I take my craft seriously, I take my clients seriously, and all that, but I don't really take myself that seriously.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_03: I know I'm basically a middle-aged guy who doesn't really have a sense of style.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_03: I have thinning hair, I need to lose a few pounds.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_03: It's like there's really nothing impressive about me if you meet me in person.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, but I know that, and I'm totally cool with that.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well, just let it all out.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: There you go.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_03: Just let it all let it all out.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like if you if you approach a conversation that way and somebody lets you know ahead of time, there's just there's no pressure anymore.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's no pressure to be perfect.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: You're not competing, you're not one-upping, you're just a normal person, and here we are.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: We're just chilling with our flaws.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_03: I do love the fact that you mentioned CSI a few minutes ago.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_03: As far as things that inspire you.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_03: So that made me think for the first time in years, I watched an episode of CSI just last week.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_03: I was actually on the CBS website, I was watching Young Sheldon, actually, a show I really like.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_03: And I happened to notice that they have what I thought was a new show out called CSI Vegas.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_03: Well, it turns out it's like a relaunch of the original CSI with some of the original casts.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, whoa, and I watched an episode of it and I was like, man, I forgot how good this show was.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's awesome.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: I I feel the same way about the X-Files.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: I freaking loved that show when it came out.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: Love it.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: It was a good story.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, it's a good show when 20 years later there are still like scenes that you remember.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_01: That is and that's good, good storytelling, creepy storytelling, but but good nonetheless.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_03: Well, Alice, this has been fun.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_03: It's been such a pleasure to get to talk to talk with you as it always is.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_03: I appreciate your wisdom and your insights.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_03: And I just want to take a second to acknowledge all of the goodness that you have added into the world through your writing through mentoring other writers, through helpful conversations, through the books you're putting out into the world.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_03: So you've you've had you've had uh what's the word I'm trying to think of?
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um you put out far more goodness into the world than the average person, which I appreciate.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, well, thank you.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate that.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's probably because I do a lot of bad stuff and I'm trying to make that point.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: No, I'm just kidding.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: No, I I really appreciate that.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: I um, you know, I never thought that this was going to be the career path that I had.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and we can talk about that on another call, but looking back, it's very clear.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: Looking forward, like when you're young and you're trying to figure out your life, it's not always clear.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: But when you look back over your career, you're like, well, of course, this is what I was going to do.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I just love that.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: I love that every day I get to write people's stories.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's just a really cool career.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_03: Well, maybe someday if you're feeling inspired, we'll get to read Alice's story in book form, or somebody will write your story.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: That is forthcoming at some point.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_03: Who writes that is the question?
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_03: Who if you have a ghostwriter who wants to.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, who it's like who cuts the barber's hair?
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's a really good question.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: That is a good question.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think you know, I would I would use the same process.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: I would I would write my story, but I would also perhaps uh speak most of it out loud and have my transcriptionists type it up so that I could I could have more raw feeling instead of sitting and typing and editing myself because even though we know we're not supposed to do that, it is hard to write your own story and not it is so it is one day it will happen.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I will be the first to buy a copy and give it away to all my friends.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate that.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_03: Well, Alice, thanks again.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_03: This has been uh so much fun.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for your wisdom and insights.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_03: And um oh, one final thing.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_03: Can you let people know where to find you online and w how to find out about how they can work with you if they want to check out your ghostwriting services and all the other good stuff?
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: All the things.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: If you want to learn more about me or get in touch, my website is aliceulliban.com.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: And you can email me there or you can email direct, which is alice at aliceulliban.com, and I will be there waiting to hear from you.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_03: Very cool.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks again.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_03: This has been a blast.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, thank you.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_03: Well, that was a really fun conversation, and I hope that you enjoyed that as much as I did.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_03: As I mentioned at the top of the episode, I'm working on my dad's Vietnam memoir.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_03: So this topic of memoir and storytelling is not just something that I'm kind of interested in on an intellectual level.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_03: I'm interested in this because I'm literally working on this book right now, and I was so thrilled to be able to ask her all of these questions that I literally have been wondering about.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_03: And because she's so good at this, I thought, man, this is such a cool opportunity to get to dive in her brain and learn about storytelling and memoir on a level that I just can't get from a book.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_03: So I hope that you have benefited from this conversation as much as I have.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I want to encourage you to check out the show notes because there are links to several books that Alice has worked on as an editor or a writer.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_03: And of course, as a ghostwriter, there are lots of books that she can't talk about that she's worked on because of NDAs and so forth, but these are the ones that she's allowed to uh to mention in terms of being an editor or a writer.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_03: So make sure and check those out.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_03: Particularly the book called Missile Man, The Secret Life of Cold War Engineer Wallace Clausen.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_03: That is a phenomenal book, and the storytelling is really, really great.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_03: So if you're going to pick one book out of the list in the show notes, make sure and pick that one because the storytelling is just really, really wonderful.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_03: Also make sure and check out Alice's website, which is AliceSullivan.com, as well as her social media links, which will be there in the show notes, of course.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_03: Well, thanks again for listening, and thanks to Alice for making time to be such an awesome guest on this episode.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks so much for listening to today's episode.
• 42:12
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• 42:16
  SPEAKER_03: You know, one of the very best ways to develop better habits and impact more people's lives with your writing is to spend time around other successful writers.
• 42:25
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• 42:32
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• 42:36
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• 42:39
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• 42:48
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• 42:52
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks, and I'll see you tomorrow.