Latest / The Daily Writer / PR Expert Isabelle Knight on Building Your Author Brand Story

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PR Expert Isabelle Knight on Building Your Author Brand Story · The Daily Writer

0:06
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Daily Rider Podcast, where we bring you tips and inspiration each day to help you build habits for writing success.
0:14
SPEAKER_00: For more resources, including your free Daily Rider Starter Kit, visit DailyRiderLife.com.
0:22
SPEAKER_00: When we think of marketing, promotion, media, and public relations, it's easy to view those as elements that are quote unquote out there building our author brand.
0:32
SPEAKER_00: And to many authors, it feels like those can be kind of disconnected from the heart and soul of what led us to write in the first place.
0:40
SPEAKER_00: Well, my guest today is here to get us back to the heart of what it means to be an author.
0:45
SPEAKER_00: And in the process, we will reconnect to our true passion that becomes a part of all of our marketing efforts.
0:52
SPEAKER_00: Isabel Knight is a former publicist of 20 years, having worked with some of the biggest names in film, TV, and publishing, including the BBC and an author that you might have heard of, J.K.
1:04
SPEAKER_00: Rowling.
1:05
SPEAKER_00: Isabel now offers authors the opportunity to learn the tools and strategies that will help you fulfill your own publicity, promotion, and marketing goals.
1:14
SPEAKER_00: She provides mentoring and done with you programs and services to grow your readership, increase your impact, and build success.
1:22
SPEAKER_00: You can check out Isabel's website at buildyourbrandwithpr.com, and you can also download her free guide, Top 10 Tips for Authors to Build a Brand.
1:32
SPEAKER_00: That's a really great guide.
1:33
SPEAKER_00: I highly encourage you to check it out.
1:35
SPEAKER_00: And I encourage you to check out her Build Your Author Brand six-week course.
1:39
SPEAKER_00: So she's got a lot of ways that she can help you, and you can find all those in the show notes where I have links.
1:44
SPEAKER_00: In today's conversation, Isabel walks us through her story of becoming a publicist and how she's taken that knowledge to now help authors with PR.
1:53
SPEAKER_00: You'll also learn why publicity and PR are so important, what an author brand story is, and why it's absolutely essential to everything that you do as a writer.
2:03
SPEAKER_00: And I've got to say, this was a seriously compelling conversation, and it's given me a lot to chew on these last few days as I have thought about changes I want to make to my own author brand.
2:11
SPEAKER_00: And I think this conversation is going to have the same impact on you because Isabel is not only a great interview guest, she's also really smart with marketing PR and helping authors with all these kinds of things that sometimes we, if we're honest with ourselves, we sometimes avoid.
2:27
SPEAKER_00: But I encourage you not to, in your heart, run away from these issues of publicity and PR and marketing, but instead run tour them.
2:34
SPEAKER_00: And Isabel is here to help us do exactly that through helping us think through this important issue of an author brand story.
2:41
SPEAKER_00: This is a really fun conversation, and I know that you're going to enjoy it just as much as I did.
2:46
SPEAKER_00: So here's my conversation with Isabel Knight.
2:49
SPEAKER_00: Isabel, it's really great to have you here on the podcast.
2:52
SPEAKER_00: We talked a few months ago, and I was so excited when you agreed to share your wisdom on the podcast.
2:57
SPEAKER_00: So welcome to the Daily Writers.
2:59
SPEAKER_00: Good to have you.
3:00
SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much, Kent.
3:01
SPEAKER_01: It's a real pleasure to be here.
3:03
SPEAKER_01: Um and yeah, and to learn more about you.
3:05
SPEAKER_01: And hopefully this will be useful for your listeners today.
3:09
SPEAKER_00: Well, I remember when we chatted a few months ago about just us kind of getting to know one another a little bit, and I was really blown away by your knowledge of marketing and publicity and uh all those kinds of things because that's not the world that I came out of.
3:24
SPEAKER_00: So I really am fascinated by the work that you have done and also by your amazing tips for authors.
3:31
SPEAKER_00: And we'll get into some of those here in just a little bit.
3:33
SPEAKER_00: But I thought maybe a good place to start this conversation would be if you can take us uh a little bit on your journey of how you got involved in this whole realm of PR and marketing and related kinds of things, and then how that landed you to where you are today, which is you work with primarily indie authors, correct?
3:51
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, that's right.
3:52
SPEAKER_01: So so you find me today um working exclusively really with indie and self-published authors, also some small press authors who haven't been published by a big publishing house with a big marketing budget and a PR team, and they don't have like a publicist assigned to them.
4:12
SPEAKER_01: Um so some of the authors I work with, you know, so technically they have been traditionally published, but they still find themselves having to do a lot of the actual of the work, which you know, once you've written the book, I think many authors come to me feeling slightly shell-shocked when they understand that, you know, they thought the hard work was was over at that point, um, at the point where they kind of they pressed publish.
4:37
SPEAKER_01: Um, but then they understand that you know, if you really want to get people to read your book, buy your book, become a fan of your writing, you're gonna have to work to promote it and to get people to grow a readership and to get people to pick the book up.
4:51
SPEAKER_01: So that that's the kind of motivation for how I got to this point of working exclusively with with authors that, you know, like I said, don't have the big tools and resources that a traditional large publishing house would have.
5:06
SPEAKER_01: Um, but my journey here um was a a sort of fairly succucious one.
5:12
SPEAKER_01: So I worked for about 20 years um as a high-level publicist in the entertainment world, so in film initially, and then TV and books, um, games, kind of, you know, across the board entertainment, but mainly film, TV, and books.
5:29
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I worked until quite recently um on a very big project um with the most famous author I've ever worked with, which is JK Rowling.
5:40
SPEAKER_00: Wait a minute, who did she did she do some kind of books about magic or something?
5:44
SPEAKER_00: No, I'm just of course everybody in the world knows who she is.
5:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, she did do those books, but she also did um a s a detective series about strike, the detective, that was televised with BBC, and I think it was HBO in the US, and I think it was Cinemax.
6:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I worked to bring that show um to the audiences.
6:09
SPEAKER_01: So we worked with JK Rowling and the producers and BBC um to adapt those books um and then turn them into TV shows.
6:19
SPEAKER_01: Um so from doing these kind of enormous projects, extremely high profile, um, I then started to look at, you know, kind of in a roundabout way, working with different clients and seeing that there were some businesses out there who just didn't have the tools and resources to promote themselves.
6:41
SPEAKER_01: And that led to seeing that there were lots of business owners writing books for their business and again not understanding what to do with that book once they'd written it, um, in order to really leverage it to grow a readership and grow their audience.
6:57
SPEAKER_01: Um, and because of my, so I was kind of working with authors on that level, the kind of the kind of business book level, non-fiction.
7:05
SPEAKER_01: And then because of my background, which obviously was very much fiction um and you know, kind of pure um created narratives, so that then led me to working with also fiction authors.
7:18
SPEAKER_01: So now, a couple about two and a half years after I started specializing in indie authors, I'm now working with a real mixture of fiction and non-fiction authors, um, which is which is brilliant because it, you know, super interesting for me.
7:35
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I, you know, one day I'll be speaking to somebody who's written a book about on kind of high finance, and the next day I'm talking to someone who's written about kind of mythical creatures and monsters, you know.
7:45
SPEAKER_01: So it's it's a real it's a real kind of mixed bag of different books now that I'm helping authors with.
7:52
SPEAKER_01: Um, so you know, having worked at this kind of high-level publicity for such a long time, um, you know, you you lose track, you know, I I lose track of how much um kind of people who don't have access to all that knowledge and those tools, how much they really, how much they don't know and how lost they can be.
8:13
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I kind of understood that if, you know, if if I sort of started off by kind of boiling down into steps that people who've never come across marketing or PR before can start to understand and apply to themselves.
8:30
SPEAKER_01: Um, and now I've developed a kind of a system really.
8:34
SPEAKER_01: So with the first, you know, when people say to me, What's the first thing that I should do as an author?
8:39
SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's the same advice for everyone, whether whether they might already have loads of readers, they might already have sold loads of books, or they're just starting out, is to say to people, figure out what your story is about you as an author.
8:54
SPEAKER_01: So, not what is the book about or what's the material on, what's the subject of the material, but what is the story of you as an author and how did you come to be the author that you are, having written the books that you've written.
9:09
SPEAKER_01: And so my kind of term for this is an author brand story, which scares lots of people when they hear that, when they hear the word brand, it's it can be frightening.
9:19
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
9:19
SPEAKER_01: Because authors, you know, authors don't go out and start out being authors to create a brand.
9:25
SPEAKER_01: They don't they don't think of it in those terms, you know.
9:28
SPEAKER_01: Nobody starts writing a book to think, oh yeah, this is my brand, this is what my brand is going to be.
9:32
SPEAKER_01: Um, or very few do.
9:34
SPEAKER_01: Um, so that in itself can be quite can be quite intimidating.
9:39
SPEAKER_01: But all we're all we're doing is creating that story, that narrative that you can share um with your audience, with your readers, that gives them a view of who you are and how your book came into being.
9:55
SPEAKER_01: And what it does is it shows them why they should care about about your work enough to pick it up and read it.
10:03
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
10:03
SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah.
10:05
SPEAKER_00: Wow, that's that's absolutely brilliant.
10:08
SPEAKER_00: You're actually the first person that I've ever heard talk about this concept of beginning with your story as an author and not necessarily the concept of the book.
10:17
SPEAKER_00: So, what happens if if you're an author who has, let's say, multiple lines of books?
10:21
SPEAKER_00: And I know I'm probably getting way ahead of myself because most people are just focused on getting that first book out there.
10:27
SPEAKER_00: But what if you have, let's say you've got some fiction books, you have some nonfiction books, you have some little short guides.
10:34
SPEAKER_00: Maybe what if you have a range of things that you're doing or that you want to do?
10:38
SPEAKER_00: Does does that same author story still apply, even though you're writing different kinds of books?
10:43
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
10:44
SPEAKER_01: So the short answer is yes.
10:45
SPEAKER_01: Um, so with with the with the author story, author brand story, what we're conveying is is the the the things that you're really passionate about.
10:56
SPEAKER_01: So, what are the things that drive you as an individual, as a writer, you know, the things that you're interested in, but going even deeper than that, why are you interested in those things?
11:08
SPEAKER_01: So, and I've got you know, I've got several authors who've worked with me who are writing in different genres at the same time.
11:13
SPEAKER_01: So I've got one lady who writes children's books very successfully, and also writes um romantic fiction for grown-ups, for adults.
11:23
SPEAKER_01: So she's you know, novelist and children's author.
11:26
SPEAKER_01: But the brand story she has is the same across both of these genres because the story is telling us why she cares enough about these about these subjects and about the readers, though these particular readers, to be writing what she's writing for them.
11:43
SPEAKER_01: So is that it's that kind of motivation and passion that drives people, and that could cover lots of different genres.
11:49
SPEAKER_01: You know, you it it does you don't you don't have to create a different brand for each of these genres.
11:55
SPEAKER_01: Obviously, the way you market those individual books is going to be slightly different because we're reaching different audiences, but the way we talk about ourselves as an author is essentially the same.
12:06
SPEAKER_00: Where does that us assuming that we sort of boil down this author brand story into some kind of bite-sized chunks or some kind of a manageable length, maybe a few paragraphs or a page or whatever context that takes?
12:20
SPEAKER_00: When we're actually putting together the books, where does that come into play?
12:24
SPEAKER_00: Does it come into play in the the book description, in the book introduction, or in the marketing materials, or where do we actually use that asset in the creation and the marketing of our books?
12:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:35
SPEAKER_01: So that's a really good question because that, you know, that's what everyone wants to know.
12:39
SPEAKER_01: Well, what are we going to do with this, with this kind of piece?
12:41
SPEAKER_01: So what what when I've gone through the process with an author of creating that that story, and when we when we begin, I always say to people, put all sorts of marketing and publicity out of your mind.
12:53
SPEAKER_01: Because what I don't want people to do is to try to, and people, you know, some people do this with me, they'll send me, they'll kind of write their their piece and it's all kind of glossy and talking as that, you know, in kind of marketing speak.
13:06
SPEAKER_01: And I kind of tell them to go away and do it again and just write it in their own words, their own thoughts, and write as though nobody is going to read this, because we go through several drafts, yeah.
13:19
SPEAKER_01: Um, so you know, the first couple of drafts might they might not show it to anybody.
13:23
SPEAKER_01: And I often say to people, you know, you can if you say it out loud and almost record yourself saying it, because as soon as we start writing, we self-edit.
13:32
SPEAKER_01: We, you know, it's it's it's an automatic thing.
13:35
SPEAKER_01: So often to get our kind of our most honest brand story, which is not going to be the version that we share in our marketing, but it but it's going to help us to get to that version.
13:45
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'll say, you know, talk to the cat, talk to the dog, you know, just just say it out loud and perhaps record yourself saying it.
13:53
SPEAKER_01: And then you can start to edit down.
13:55
SPEAKER_01: So when we've got this kind of eventually we we get this edited, polished version.
14:00
SPEAKER_01: And it and it's not it's not the same as your life story.
14:04
SPEAKER_01: So it's not about trying to force people to share details of their lives that they, you know, that they're never, you know, they don't want broadcast to the whole world.
14:13
SPEAKER_01: Um, but we end up with a piece that that they feel come comfortable and confident because it tells the reader something about who they about who they are, their passions, motivations.
14:23
SPEAKER_01: And they can use that first of all, their about me on their website often is a really good first use of that piece, because quite often an author will have something like, you know, we you know, we you know what I mean, we get those kind of bio biologs that we see often in the back of the book or on the website, and it just says, you know, lives in in London with her husband and their two cats, kind of thing.
14:45
SPEAKER_01: Um, so what we're doing is giving a much more rounded, 360-degree view, something more interesting that the reader can latch on to.
14:53
SPEAKER_01: So we'll put that on the website and then it will inform their marketing, whether that's in the form of newsletters, social media posts, podcasts, blogs, whatever it is, it will it will start to inform the way they talk about themselves and their work.
15:11
SPEAKER_01: And so authors that have done this work with me, you know, a couple of months down the line, they'll say to me, Oh, you know, I got asked to do a talk, or I got asked to do a reading or attend an event in a bookshop, or I was asked to do a radio interview, and they say, and I used, you know, and they'll say to me, it was so great because I had my brand story ready to use.
15:35
SPEAKER_01: And if they've kind of they've learned it and it becomes part of how they talk about themselves, so they're not sitting there fretting thinking, oh, what do I say about myself?
15:46
SPEAKER_01: Because it's all there for them.
15:48
SPEAKER_01: So it you know that's powerful, yeah.
15:51
SPEAKER_01: So it comes into play in all kinds of different ways, really.
15:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but you have to get clear on that yourself first as an author.
15:58
SPEAKER_00: So it what's the best way for somebody to maybe begin this process of thinking about their author story?
16:04
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, you have a you have a course coming up, and we'll talk more about that before we wrap up the interview.
16:09
SPEAKER_00: But um, are there some simple ways that somebody could get started with this?
16:13
SPEAKER_00: And just thinking about what elements would be part of their author brand story?
16:17
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
16:18
SPEAKER_01: So there are there's a really, really simple way of getting started with this, and it's deceptively simple, obviously.
16:25
SPEAKER_01: Um, but there are three questions.
16:27
SPEAKER_01: So if people are listening to this and they go away and think about it, or you know, you could journal on these three questions.
16:34
SPEAKER_01: So the three questions are why you, why here, why now?
16:45
SPEAKER_00: Those are really good.
16:46
SPEAKER_00: I'm writing these down as you're talking.
16:50
SPEAKER_01: So and like I said, deceptively simple, but actually, if you if you really get into those, it can it can help you to uncover quite a lot.
17:01
SPEAKER_01: And and what we're doing is is encouraging you to put to put it into context, into kind of real life immediate context, you know, which is the the the why you, but why here and why now.
17:14
SPEAKER_01: You know, what is it about your work right now that is going to appeal to that reader or that readership?
17:21
SPEAKER_01: In other words, why why are they going to care about it?
17:25
SPEAKER_01: Why now?
17:26
SPEAKER_01: Why not, you know, or not in 10 years' time or 10 years ago, or you know what I mean?
17:30
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of putting you in that moment in the here and there.
17:34
SPEAKER_00: What do you mean by why not?
17:36
SPEAKER_00: Or I'm sorry, why not?
17:38
SPEAKER_00: What do you mean by why here?
17:39
SPEAKER_00: How is how is why here different than um why now?
17:45
SPEAKER_01: So the why here is is again putting it into the context of what is going on for in your in your life and in your present and for your readers.
17:57
SPEAKER_01: So it's starting to to get you thinking about if you know, if if you're if you're sitting writing a book for your readers, so you're you know, in the place that you're that you come from, or the place that you've set your book in, or you know, kind of giving it that context.
18:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
18:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's really good.
18:21
SPEAKER_00: Those those are deceptively simple because I imagine when people start digging into those and really thinking, why am I the right person to do this, or why is it now the right time to do this?
18:31
SPEAKER_00: Yes, then that probably opens the floodgates of a lot of stories and emotions and history and all kinds of different things for people.
18:40
SPEAKER_01: Yes, that's right.
18:41
SPEAKER_01: And it and it and it is very emotional, it can be a really emotional process.
18:46
SPEAKER_01: And and for a lot of people, you know, it can be it can go right back to you know the things that you that were important to you in childhood.
18:54
SPEAKER_01: And for a lot of people, it that's where it begins.
18:56
SPEAKER_01: You know, the the the motivations, the the things that mean the most to you carry with you your whole life, really.
19:04
SPEAKER_00: Isn't that funny the way that I was actually thinking about this this morning, just doing a little bit of writing?
19:10
SPEAKER_00: How sometimes we have these these memories that we carry around with us for decades.
19:16
SPEAKER_00: I mean, literally, from the time that we're kids and things that are absolutely no longer relevant.
19:20
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it was a situation that happened in school that was just a split second kind of a thing with a bully or with the teacher or with the friend or something or with the parent.
19:31
SPEAKER_00: But yet those moments we carry with us for decades.
19:33
SPEAKER_00: And isn't that funny?
19:35
SPEAKER_00: You know, as you work with with authors who are getting kind of deep into the weeds and these sort of things, does it ever surprise you the things that people carry with them that are maybe just a very, very small thing, but for whatever reason that has impacted the trajectory of their whole lives in some ways?
19:51
SPEAKER_01: But you know what?
19:52
SPEAKER_01: It's never, it's never surprising when when we get to that thing that they are carrying around with them.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: It's never surprising because it opens up, it opens up the whole uh kind of picture of who they of who they are and why they're writing what they're writing.
20:09
SPEAKER_01: Once we get to that, to that thing, we go, ah, now we now I understand.
20:14
SPEAKER_01: Now I see why you're writing this book or you know, writing in this subject or producing this work.
20:22
SPEAKER_01: So it's so it's not it's not surprising, it's like a feeling of of going, ah yes, now we understand.
20:29
SPEAKER_01: So it completely makes sense every time.
20:32
SPEAKER_00: So it does actually make sense that your your author's story brand would inform all of the different things that you write, even though they're different kinds of writing, different genres, different styles, because they're all coming from the same person.
20:46
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
20:47
SPEAKER_00: They're all coming from the same story, essentially, in one way or another.
20:51
SPEAKER_01: Yes, that's right.
20:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they come from the same place, they come from the same, the same passions.
20:56
SPEAKER_01: And this is, you know, and this kind of helps to explain why when we're talking about book promotion, you know, I'm telling people don't talk about the book, don't just tell people the plot or the subject or the characters or you know, it where it's set or anything about the book.
21:11
SPEAKER_01: Tell them about about you and why you wrote it.
21:15
SPEAKER_01: Because that's the thing.
21:16
SPEAKER_01: It's those, it's those very human passions, or, you know, and and like we said, it often it's something that somebody's carried with them forever.
21:25
SPEAKER_01: And it, you know, it might it might relate back to some very significant thing that they've been through, or it might be something small that they've been through, but that carries with it a lot of meaning.
21:35
SPEAKER_01: And those are the things that we can relate to as humans.
21:40
SPEAKER_00: This is, I think, particularly helpful for people who do the kinds of work that I do, which is I do my own books, but I also do ghostwriting.
21:48
SPEAKER_00: That's really what my main thing is.
21:50
SPEAKER_00: And what I've often found is that people who who spend a lot of time working on behalf of other authors for ghostwriters that could be editors.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: Graphic designers.
22:01
SPEAKER_00: Any it all of us who are putting a lot of energy into other people's platforms, sometimes I think that that can be a way of almost avoiding our own sort of things.
22:13
SPEAKER_00: And what I hear a lot is that, well, I just I want to support other authors, but I wonder sometimes is if that's not kind of an escape mechanism so that we don't have to deal with our own stuff and we don't have to put our own voice out there.
22:25
SPEAKER_00: And so I love your emphasis on helping us to think about why it is that we want to write.
22:31
SPEAKER_00: Because it's pretty rare that I talk to an editor or a ghostwriter or a freelance writer who doesn't also want to write their own stuff.
22:40
SPEAKER_00: You know, we may be doing work for hire for others, but almost universally, people who are doing work on behalf of other authors, we also want to write our own stuff.
22:49
SPEAKER_00: So I I think I appreciate you giving us kind of a pathway to do that.
22:53
SPEAKER_00: That's really insightful.
22:54
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
22:55
SPEAKER_01: But also, you know, the other side of that is that your ghostwriting work will also be um be kind of exemplified and and it will show us who you are as well.
23:06
SPEAKER_01: That it will be part of it.
23:08
SPEAKER_01: It be it's not a mutually exclusive thing.
23:11
SPEAKER_00: And this is actually a really, really helpful tool for doing ghostwriting is to think about what is what is if we're working with a client, what is their author story and why do they want to write this book now?
23:23
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes the client doesn't even really know all those things because it's really hard to a friend of mine says it's hard to read the label of the jar that you're in.
23:32
SPEAKER_00: It's really hard to do self-introspection.
23:34
SPEAKER_00: So sometimes we need that person to come alongside of us.
23:37
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
23:38
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
23:38
SPEAKER_01: And and and and really, you know, the most effective way of doing this is to tell your story to somebody else.
23:46
SPEAKER_01: Because you know, what I'm doing with my with my authors, I'm effectively reflecting back to them.
23:51
SPEAKER_01: I'm kind of they tell me their story, and then I mirror back to them the points that really stood out as as being the kind of the you, you know, the the key factors, like what makes them tick essentially.
24:06
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
24:07
SPEAKER_01: And and those are the things that other people are also going to relate to.
24:12
SPEAKER_01: So really all I'm all I'm doing is reflecting back to them certain and kind of pulling out certain elements.
24:18
SPEAKER_01: But it's incredibly difficult to do this for yourself on your own.
24:21
SPEAKER_01: It's very hard to do.
24:22
SPEAKER_01: But you can certainly, you can certainly make a start.
24:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you can certainly kind of get get some of the way there, but yeah, yeah.
24:30
SPEAKER_00: I have a ghostwriting client now who is a therapist, and uh she she often talks about how she has her own therapist because she she can't expect her clients or her clients to do something that she's not doing herself.
24:44
SPEAKER_00: So I think you're exactly right.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: It would sort of be like if you're a therapist going to yourself as your own therapist, it's really difficult to do.
24:52
SPEAKER_00: You need somebody else to pull that out of you and reflect those things back to you.
24:56
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah.
24:57
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's it's fascinating, really.
24:59
SPEAKER_01: We could have a whole other conversation on the on the kind of the ghostwriting aspect because you know, you ghostwriting somebody else's book, really, you want to approach that from the point of view of what is their author's story.
25:13
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
25:14
SPEAKER_01: What's their story behind the story, behind the book?
25:16
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
25:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and in some ways, I think I think having somebody ghostwrite a book for you can actually be a more authentic way of putting yourself out there because it's really, really hard to to tell your own story in some ways, because we're we're so emotionally involved in our own story and in our own past that sometimes having somebody objectively frame that story and present it in a way to the reader that that is maybe more packaged in a way that they can really consume and they can digest.
25:50
SPEAKER_00: I think that actually ends up being a better product much of the time.
25:55
SPEAKER_00: We'll get back to the conversation here in just a minute, but in the meantime, I want to take a moment to give a thanks to today's sponsor, Vellum.
26:02
SPEAKER_00: Now, you've heard me talk about Vellum before.
26:04
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26:12
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26:21
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26:29
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26:31
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26:33
SPEAKER_00: But I've spent two or three hours working on the formatting for a book that I've got coming out before too long.
26:39
SPEAKER_00: Now, you might say, Kent, you could just use a graphic designer to do the formatting, and that's very true, but this is a very particular kind of book, and I honestly I just really enjoy book formatting.
26:49
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26:56
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26:57
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27:00
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27:05
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27:13
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27:15
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27:20
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27:23
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27:27
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27:32
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27:34
SPEAKER_00: All right, let's get back to the conversation with Isabel Knight.
27:38
SPEAKER_00: Well, I'd love to dive into a few things related to um PR and marketing and those kinds of things.
27:45
SPEAKER_00: Um, because after all, I I do have I am talking to an expert in this.
27:49
SPEAKER_00: So I want to make good use of this opportunity as well as on behalf of our listeners.
27:55
SPEAKER_00: And I've got a million questions about this because I don't come from a world where uh so I come from the world of of church ministry and higher education.
28:04
SPEAKER_00: Those are two kinds of jobs where you're not really involved in PR stuff on any kind of a regular basis generally.
28:12
SPEAKER_00: Um why, as somebody who's done this for a long time, why is publicity and PR so important for authors to grow a readership?
28:21
SPEAKER_00: And the reason I ask that is because a lot of a lot of authors think, well, if I just do the email marketing and and I just kind of do the online social media stuff, that everything will just kind of take care of itself.
28:31
SPEAKER_00: But what you're talking about is something that's that's more traditional and and more expansive than some of the things that we can just do on our own, correct?
28:40
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, that's absolutely it.
28:42
SPEAKER_01: And and the key so the key things that PR and publicity will do for you, that social media and marketing can never do is that PR and publicity is essentially getting a third party to vouch for you.
29:00
SPEAKER_01: So it's it's uh you being showcased on on a different platform, one that you can't control, that is not your own mouthpiece, and that relies on the words of another.
29:16
SPEAKER_01: And so what that does, so whether that's you know, you're on TV or you're on the radio, or you have your, you know, somebody interviews you for a magazine, um, you know, interviews you for a podcast, all what all of these things do is they they help to give you credibility, they help to give you authority and authenticity.
29:37
SPEAKER_01: So those are the three things that that I kind of you know base this on.
29:42
SPEAKER_01: So the credibility, so you know, if you're an author writing in a genre, you're telling everyone, you know, go and buy my books, this is all about my books, this is all about me, on your social media, on your marketing.
29:53
SPEAKER_01: If you if you can also combine that with, say, a couple of magazine articles, you know, radio interview, then that automatically up levels your profile to this more credible status.
30:07
SPEAKER_01: Because it's not just it's not just you directly speaking to your audience, it's somebody else, a third party vouching for you, essentially.
30:18
SPEAKER_00: One of the things that that I thought was fascinating.
30:21
SPEAKER_00: So you have a guide that um that will I want to make sure and mention this before our interview is over.
30:27
SPEAKER_00: Um on you have a guide on top tips for authors to to build a brand.
30:31
SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that you mentioned in there that is such a simple thing was have a section on your website that is where you list the places where you've been featured.
30:39
SPEAKER_00: And I've seen that on lots and lots of websites.
30:42
SPEAKER_00: What are the what are the circumstances under which we can legitimately say we were featured?
30:48
SPEAKER_00: Let's I'm just gonna say NBC.
30:50
SPEAKER_00: I'm just pulling one out of my hat.
30:51
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
30:52
SPEAKER_00: Um, is it you were obviously if you're featured on the Today Show or something, that's a big deal.
30:58
SPEAKER_00: But um, is it legit to say you were featured on NBC if you were mentioned in an article on their website or on NBC News?
31:05
SPEAKER_00: Or how does that work in terms of when can we legitimately say we were we were seen on a certain platform?
31:12
SPEAKER_01: So we can legitimately say that if your name has been included in something, if you've been asked to give a comment on something.
31:18
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it could even be that you've appeared in like a list, you know, list of you know 10 best indie authors in the fantasy genre, for example.
31:26
SPEAKER_01: You know, it could be, you know, or you've been or you've somebody's done a survey on new authors or you know, different genres of books and asked authors, different authors to give a comment about it.
31:39
SPEAKER_01: So you know, there's lots of different you know, there's so many different ways that you could be legitimately, you could say, yes, you know, as seen in or as featured in, or you know.
31:50
SPEAKER_01: Um so it doesn't have to be like a full interview, it doesn't have to be, you know, a big picture of you across a magazine.
31:56
SPEAKER_01: It could literally just be, you know, your name has been included in something.
31:59
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so literally it means I mean it look it just literally means you were seen there.
32:05
SPEAKER_00: Your name was your name could be seen.
32:07
SPEAKER_00: Okay, that totally makes sense.
32:09
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
32:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:09
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I overanalyze things, but like literally it just means you were seen there.
32:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
32:15
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
32:15
SPEAKER_00: What are the ways that that um a self-published author could get started with publicity in PR?
32:23
SPEAKER_00: Let's say they're starting from ground zero, maybe they've got a blog, a podcast, uh, some self-published books out there, or maybe not at all yet.
32:30
SPEAKER_00: What are maybe a couple of simple things that they could do just to get started with those channels?
32:35
SPEAKER_01: So the first things that they should do, the very first thing they should do is is think about who is my ideal reader.
32:44
SPEAKER_01: So who is the person out there that I want to be reading my books?
32:48
SPEAKER_01: So you're thinking about your genre of book, you're thinking about who it's targeted at.
32:54
SPEAKER_01: And so many authors will say to me, Oh, but you know, just everyone.
32:58
SPEAKER_00: That's never the case.
32:59
SPEAKER_01: I just want everyone to read it.
33:00
SPEAKER_01: And you say, No, you know, because we we always have a reader in mind, even if we haven't yet done the work of articulating who they are to ourselves.
33:10
SPEAKER_01: Because the reality is that a lot of authors write for other people, you know, other people like them who've maybe experienced similar you had similar kinds of lives, similar kinds of interests, for example.
33:20
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
33:21
SPEAKER_01: Or they're, you know, or if they're writing in a very specific, you know, whether it's cosy mysteries, whether it's fantasy, whether it's romantic comedy, you know, they're writing in a specific genre that has a very specific audience and readership.
33:36
SPEAKER_01: So it's taking some time to think about who that readership actually is, who it who is it made up of.
33:43
SPEAKER_01: And then the next step is to think about, I would, you know, I say to people, where think about where do they hang out?
33:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
33:49
SPEAKER_01: So where do though where do those kinds of people spend their time?
33:53
SPEAKER_01: And it might be thinking about the social media platforms that they use.
33:57
SPEAKER_01: You know, there's no point making TikTok videos if all of your audience are on Facebook, for example.
34:02
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
34:03
SPEAKER_01: And then you might start thinking about what what magazines do they read?
34:08
SPEAKER_01: Do they read any?
34:08
SPEAKER_01: You know, if they're 16 years old, they probably don't, and they watch a lot of YouTube.
34:12
SPEAKER_01: But it's thinking about who, you know, what what age group are they?
34:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, what demographic are they, all of these things to think about.
34:21
SPEAKER_01: And then what what media do they consume?
34:24
SPEAKER_01: And me using the word media in the widest sense.
34:28
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
34:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
34:30
SPEAKER_00: That totally makes a lot of sense.
34:32
SPEAKER_00: Um and I wonder if sometimes as authors we make things more complicated than they need to be.
34:39
SPEAKER_00: So basically, it's who are my readers and where do they hang out online?
34:43
SPEAKER_00: Um, I assume there are some media channels where it doesn't matter who our readers are, it's always good to be associated with some things, like like a large network or uh the New York Times or the Washington Post or uh some places like that.
35:00
SPEAKER_00: Is that generally true that it doesn't really matter who you are, if you could be associated with these certain huge brands, that's always going to be a plus?
35:07
SPEAKER_01: Well, yes and no, because remember that you know to the average 16, 18 year old, they probably don't read the New York Times.
35:15
SPEAKER_01: You know, if there if it's anything like the the kind of you know, the UK audience, if you're if you're reaching teens or young adults, you know, forget about like you know, the Times literary review and you know, the Guardian and the Observer and you know the FT and all these kind of prestigious old school newspapers and magazines.
35:34
SPEAKER_01: You know, forget that.
35:35
SPEAKER_01: So it again, it really, you know, before we can make those kind of judgments, we have to first of all know.
35:42
SPEAKER_01: We have to know who we are talking about.
35:44
SPEAKER_01: We we need to know who the audience is.
35:46
SPEAKER_01: So really that that's the first thing as an author that you should be that well, the two first things, one is trying to figure out what to say about yourself as an author and who you are as an author, and the second thing is who is gonna be reading your books, and if you know, and if in in your mind you've been you, you know, and and it's true, I I you know I ask this question and lots of people say, Oh, you know, just everyone, and and it's never everyone.
36:12
SPEAKER_01: There's there's always there's always specific readers in mind, yeah.
36:16
SPEAKER_01: But again, you know, when people haven't had to articulate that before and they haven't had to think in that way before.
36:23
SPEAKER_01: But really, when you're doing that, you are thinking like a marketer or like a publicist, and you sort of have to do that to an extent, you know, and you don't you don't have to become, you know, I say to we don't have to become a marketing expert or a publicity expert, you just have to understand how to apply it for yourself to your own particular books.
36:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
36:45
SPEAKER_00: Are there some times whenever you've seen a book not really become successful for its intended audience, but then a whole different audience starts to pick it up and become interested in it?
36:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
36:56
SPEAKER_01: I think I think that happens more often than than people will will admit, sometimes, especially, especially I think in the indie publishing world, because I think lots of books, you know, get put out with without having gone through this this process, this thought behind them.
37:12
SPEAKER_01: So people think it's going to be one kind of reader and actually a surprise to find, you know, they think it's going to be uh uh, you know, I don't know, um, 18 and 19 year olds and a surprise to find actually it's um it's kind of 65-year-old women that are reading their books, you know, and that that kind of thing has has genuinely happened.
37:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:31
SPEAKER_01: Um, because yeah, they you know, they they because they're not thinking around who could these topics possibly appeal to, who could who could this and the style of writing and the way it's put together, who could it actually appeal to?
37:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that I'm sure that does happen a lot.
37:52
SPEAKER_00: Um because ultimately at the end of the day, any anytime that you create art, it's kind of a crapshoot because you don't really know where it's gonna go.
38:00
SPEAKER_00: I mean, the same thing with music or movies or TV shows or books or whatever, because you you create something and you can have the the best of intentions in terms of we think this audience is gonna like it, but as movies oftentimes show us, that's not always the case.
38:15
SPEAKER_00: Things that seem like a surefire hit aren't.
38:18
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes things nobody expected to be successful become like the Barbie movie, for example.
38:23
SPEAKER_00: I don't think anybody probably predicted it's gonna be that big of a hit, but lo and behold, you know, it's just uh it's like the year's biggest movie hit almost or something.
38:32
SPEAKER_01: Yes, and the Barbie movie is is a whole like very specific example because it was marketed in such a way that I think lots of people didn't actually know what movie they were going to see.
38:43
SPEAKER_00: Right.
38:43
SPEAKER_00: I I didn't, yeah.
38:45
SPEAKER_01: Well, neither I didn't really, you know.
38:47
SPEAKER_01: I sort of had an idea, but but was still quite surprised.
38:50
SPEAKER_01: Um I was and that often happens with movies, actually.
38:54
SPEAKER_01: It's yeah, yeah.
38:55
SPEAKER_00: Um, I went to the Barbie movie sort of under now, I'm sort of just being funny, under duress.
39:01
SPEAKER_00: I wasn't really under duress, but I went sort of in uh a bit of protest because my wife wanted to see it.
39:07
SPEAKER_00: I was like, okay, I'll I'll go with you to see it.
39:09
SPEAKER_00: Sort of thinking it was just gonna be kind of a silly movie, not certainly not intended for people, you know.
39:16
SPEAKER_00: I'm a middle-aged guy, was I'm not the target market for that movie, but I actually found it to be profoundly moving and and really, really thoughtful, which was a complete shock to me.
39:27
SPEAKER_01: Yes, and in many ways, I think you know, middle-aged men probably were the target market for that movie.
39:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's that's a good point, right?
39:36
SPEAKER_01: But but we came in at the radar, yeah, but we didn't see that from the from the overt marketing because it had it had to be marketed as this kind of pink, fluffy, bubbly, fun movie.
39:48
SPEAKER_01: And for people that saw it, you know, that obviously it it isn't really that.
39:53
SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah.
39:54
SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile, I saw um the same week I saw Oppenheimer, and I'm a huge Christopher Nolan fan, and I was uh profoundly bored by that movie and really disappointed.
40:04
SPEAKER_00: So you just and uh you know a lot of people loved it, so that's neither here nor there, but but it's just it's always kind of surprising.
40:10
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we we make stuff for a certain audience and it lands or it doesn't land, and I guess that's just kind of the name of the game.
40:17
SPEAKER_01: But the key thing is whether whether it whether you make whether you market it at an audience and it doesn't land with them and it ends up landing with a different audience, you you still need to know how to answer the questions about it, and that's really key.
40:30
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
40:31
SPEAKER_01: So we you know, with the Barbie movie, got all these guys watching it and saying, Well, that's not what I thought it was gonna be, you know, and then loads more questions come out after people have seen it because it's not what they were expecting.
40:42
SPEAKER_04: Right.
40:43
SPEAKER_01: And you know, those filmmakers have to be able to field those questions and to and to decide what they're gonna say about that in advance.
40:51
SPEAKER_01: And that is really, you know, that's the that's me as a publicist, that's the publicist's primary job is to make sure that the person in the spotlight knows what they're gonna say before before they're put under that under that beam.
41:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
41:08
SPEAKER_00: That's that's a challenging job, I'm sure, because uh some people you can probably prepare them all they want to, but uh when you're when you're in front of the camera or in the spotlight or on the mic, um I'm sure anything can happen at any time.
41:23
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, and and it and it is, and and you know, it is partly the most fun part of the job and also the most difficult part.
41:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
41:31
SPEAKER_00: Well, before we wrap up this conversation, um, I want to ask a couple of things.
41:35
SPEAKER_00: First of all, can you share with us about your six-week Build Your Author brand course?
41:40
SPEAKER_00: That's a really exciting opportunity that's coming up here in so this interview will come out on September the uh 20th.
41:48
SPEAKER_00: No, I'm sorry, 21st.
41:49
SPEAKER_00: Take that back, I believe it is.
41:51
SPEAKER_00: And I'd love to have you share a bit about that if you would.
41:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, fantastic.
41:55
SPEAKER_01: So it's um a six-week online course.
41:58
SPEAKER_01: So it has live elements with me.
42:01
SPEAKER_01: We have um modules where we take people through creating your author brand story, looking at your ideal reader.
42:09
SPEAKER_01: So some of the things we've been talking about today, figuring out who the audience is going to be, figuring out where you're going to position your book in the market and how you're going to do it, and then what tools and what media and how to pitch and write a press release.
42:22
SPEAKER_01: So we cover quite a lot of of ground in the six weeks.
42:25
SPEAKER_01: Um, and people get the opportunity to talk live with me every single week.
42:30
SPEAKER_01: Um, so we kind of get together as a group.
42:32
SPEAKER_01: It's a really supportive, quite a small group of authors.
42:35
SPEAKER_01: I don't have big groups because as much, you know, I want to work in depth with people.
42:39
SPEAKER_01: Right.
42:40
SPEAKER_01: So it so it turns out being a really like a small, very supportive group of authors, and everyone comes in with essentially the same, you know, we're facing the same challenges and have the same goals.
42:53
SPEAKER_01: Everybody wants to learn how to raise their profile as an author, get their books seen by more people.
42:58
SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, we're starting on the 26th of September.
43:03
SPEAKER_01: So I'm taking sign-ups right up until then.
43:06
SPEAKER_01: Um, and this course runs about runs twice a year at the moment, and it's been really popular every time.
43:12
SPEAKER_01: And the transformations are are really fantastic.
43:16
SPEAKER_01: Um people come through come through it, come out the other end much more confident um and feeling really kind of ready to to go with their with their book promotion, which is brilliant.
43:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, so yes, that that's the build your author brand.
43:30
SPEAKER_00: And where can people access that or sign up for it?
43:34
SPEAKER_01: So if they go to my website, which is buildyourbrandwithpr.com, um, and they can also find me on LinkedIn, on Instagram, um, on TikTok, on Facebook.
43:47
SPEAKER_01: So I'm on all those platforms under my name, Isabel Knight, or you can go straight to the website and you'll see all the information there.
43:54
SPEAKER_01: You can also book a 15-minute call with me to discuss whether it's the right course for you right now.
44:01
SPEAKER_01: Um wonderful.
44:03
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
44:04
SPEAKER_00: And when they go to your website, build your brand with PR.com, they can also grab your free.
44:08
SPEAKER_00: Uh it's essentially a checklist, top tips for authors to build a brand.
44:12
SPEAKER_00: I you sent it to me actually this morning, and it's really, really good.
44:15
SPEAKER_00: So I really encourage people to grab that and also to consider signing up for your course.
44:20
SPEAKER_00: Um, thanks for doing this.
44:21
SPEAKER_00: This has been an absolute blast.
44:22
SPEAKER_00: I've really enjoyed talking with you.
44:24
SPEAKER_01: Oh, me too.
44:25
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
44:26
SPEAKER_01: Really good to speak to you.
44:27
SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, thanks for having me.
44:29
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, totally my pleasure.
44:31
SPEAKER_00: Wasn't that a fun conversation?
44:33
SPEAKER_00: I took a lot of notes during that interview with Isabel, and I hope that you did too, because the wisdom that she shares can be really transformative as we think about our PR and marketing strategies and how we communicate what it is that we do.
44:47
SPEAKER_00: Again, I want to encourage you to check out her website, which is buildyourbrandwithpr.com.
44:52
SPEAKER_00: And in addition, there are links in the show notes to grab her free guide, Top 10 Tips for Authors to Build a Brand, and her course, Build Your Author Brand six week course.
45:03
SPEAKER_00: That's going to be a lot of fun.
45:04
SPEAKER_00: Well, many thanks to Isabel for making time to be a guest on today's episode.
45:08
SPEAKER_00: I really had fun in this conversation.
45:09
SPEAKER_00: And again, check out those links.
45:11
SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of good stuff there for authors of any level and of any kind of genre.
45:16
SPEAKER_00: Hey, my friend, as always, I really, really appreciate you listening to the show and always appreciate your support.
45:21
SPEAKER_00: And I will see you next time.