Latest / Babes, how did you get here / England Saw A Black Man. Africa Saw A Star

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England Saw A Black Man. Africa Saw A Star · Babes, how did you get here

• 0:00
  The car flipped over and this is in the middle of nowhere on the desert road.
• 0:11
  I got a car from this film set and we drove off towards the Toshapan.
• 0:16
  As we were going on the roads were quite incredible.
• 0:21
  It was really dangerous in the middle and we had a double blowout.
• 0:24
  We had a car burst tires, a car flipped over. I was flung out of the car. I was conscious.
• 0:30
  I was dislocating my left arm and she luckily the car was my side was crushed.
• 0:38
  She managed to get out of the car, walked around to the back of the car,
• 0:41
  pulled the car and landed on me.
• 0:43
  Do you remember the first time you landed?
• 0:46
  Yeah, I do remember the first time I landed.
• 0:48
  The Cape Town, the city airport now, Cape Town's airport was just a little shot.
• 0:53
  It was a little one-room tinge thingy that you come through.
• 0:58
  It was a very small suburban type of airport.
• 1:03
  I remember that.
• 1:06
  I remember being at the wedding, a couple of white,
• 1:10
  and being one of the only black people at the wedding that wasn't serving.
• 1:14
  Now more than ever, people are thinking about moving abroad.
• 1:18
  For some, it's politics. For others, they are seeing worlds through social media that they never knew existed.
• 1:23
  And then there's those of us that are chasing our dreams.
• 1:26
  I am April Jackson, traveling the world, speaking with interesting people who have chosen a life elsewhere.
• 1:33
  Hakim Ke Kazim is an actor, a producer and a director whose career has spanned continents and cultures.
• 1:41
  Gentlemen, you can't.
• 1:43
  He has lived in the UK, the United States, Nigeria, and South Africa.
• 1:48
  But behind his global career and recognizable presence is a man shaped by fatherhood, resilience,
• 1:54
  and a deep love for his craft.
• 1:56
  I cannot wait to get into his story.
• 1:59
  But first, I must ask, babes, how did you get here?
• 2:02
  How did I get here?
• 2:04
  I came, actually, for a friend of mine's wedding.
• 2:07
  So yeah, that was the beginning of my story, the complete accident.
• 2:11
  So I had a whole bunch of friends that I used to hang out with after university, university friends, when I was in the UK.
• 2:19
  And these friends had friends from South Africa, one of the couple that people were just beginning to go back to South Africa.
• 2:26
  And so his dad was going back to South Africa, and he went back to South Africa.
• 2:30
  Our dad was over.
• 2:32
  And that sort of stuff.
• 2:33
  So he went back to South Africa and to sit and see, you know, to meet extended family.
• 2:38
  And then he got in with a group of friends in South Africa.
• 2:42
  And those group of friends came to visit him in England.
• 2:45
  And out of our group of friends, his group of friends, a couple of them fell in love.
• 2:49
  And then, fast forwarded two years later, they decided to get married.
• 2:53
  And because they were South African, he was South African.
• 2:56
  She was South African. He was English.
• 2:58
  So they married in South Africa and Cape Town.
• 3:00
  That was my reason for coming in 1994, you know, just before Nelson Mandela was elected.
• 3:06
  It was a very exciting time to be here.
• 3:08
  But that's how I got here.
• 3:11
  We're dropping new episodes every single week.
• 3:14
  So make sure you subscribe.
• 3:16
  You don't want to miss this, babes.
• 3:18
  And leave a comment and tell me, what do you want to hear out of my next conversation?
• 3:21
  Your support really helps this community grow.
• 3:24
  And if you know someone who's quietly been thinking, should they take that next big leap?
• 3:28
  Babes, send them the podcast.
• 3:30
  Do you remember the first time you landed?
• 3:33
  I do, yeah, I do remember the first time I landed.
• 3:36
  Because it was Cape Town, if you see the airport now, Cape Town's airport was just a little...
• 3:41
  It was a little one-gruntined thingy that you'd come through.
• 3:47
  So it was a very small suburban type of airport.
• 3:52
  So I remember that.
• 3:55
  I remember being at the wedding, a couple of white and being one of the only black people at the wedding that wasn't serving.
• 4:03
  So that was fascinating as well.
• 4:05
  I mean, I don't obviously heard of a partake and were being part of some of the demonstrations in London at the time,
• 4:11
  but to experience the end of it and its reality was quite something.
• 4:19
  So people who don't know what that energy would have been like in terms of a partake?
• 4:23
  Could you describe that?
• 4:26
  Yeah, it's really difficult to describe because I wasn't in that big of it.
• 4:29
  And these people were very sort of social, but it was really, it's about...
• 4:33
  Just knowing that you're not welcome, knowing that you're not really...
• 4:37
  I don't really belong, I think.
• 4:39
  It's like any form of ism, you know, racism, it's just...
• 4:43
  You know, it's just about people deciding that you're less than or you're not welcome because you're expired into it.
• 4:51
  So that was the ultimate sort of...
• 4:53
  That's not the feeling that I was given at the wedding obviously because I was there as a guest.
• 4:57
  But there's a feeling that I got in terms of...
• 5:02
  This in terms of how it was in terms of how it came from the wedding to come into Cape Town at that time, you know.
• 5:10
  It was just that feeling that obviously things would be giving to change,
• 5:14
  but it was very early on in the change.
• 5:16
  So they were very unused to strong, proud, black people walking the streets and taking ownership of their own space.
• 5:24
  Before we continue, make sure that you join our community by clicking the link below.
• 5:28
  You will get to choose thumbnails before the episodes go live,
• 5:32
  pick our next destinations, even recommend guests.
• 5:35
  I really cannot wait for you to help me shape where this podcast goes.
• 5:40
  I read, I think it's by Marlon James and there's a line in this book where there is a maid or housekeeper
• 5:48
  and she is describing her resentment for working for a black family because she said she knows that...
• 5:54
  Because of her skin she'll never be white, but there's a resentment when you're serving your own
• 5:59
  because why do you get to have this position of higher class, more money?
• 6:05
  And I don't considering, upon sight, we're technically the same.
• 6:10
  And I just wondered, even at the wedding, when you say that they were serving you, was there any tension there?
• 6:16
  Because I've experienced that in other islands where there seems to be a little bit of a bitter taste to serve me.
• 6:23
  That's the same question actually.
• 6:26
  I didn't really feel it there.
• 6:28
  I remember feeling it there about wedding.
• 6:31
  It's an interesting book.
• 6:33
  I mean, you know, the idea of that is, you know, it's crabs in a battle mentality.
• 6:39
  So I don't understand why we do to each other, you know, worse than we do to...
• 6:51
  I remember that.
• 6:52
  You know, I remember that.
• 6:53
  The whole thing of being in South Africa now, you know, the idea that there's...
• 6:58
  That is, again, there is xenophobia.
• 7:00
  You know, xenophobia was against other foreign applicants.
• 7:05
  You know, hatred was from South Africans to other applicants.
• 7:10
  You know, these applicants have actually helped them in the liberation struggle.
• 7:14
  You know, my parents, for example, were Nigerian and they paid for college.
• 7:19
  You know, they paid Jews or college to help with their liberation.
• 7:22
  And you could go to school and actually pay some money to help with liberation.
• 7:26
  So they're going to come 30 years forward and their liberation has happened.
• 7:30
  And then to be, you know, avid by the people that you helped, it's a bit of a crazy situation.
• 7:38
  But I suppose one sort of understands it because of the deep insecurity that has been fostered,
• 7:47
  the hate of oneself and so the jealousy that brings up and then people that look like you,
• 7:54
  but have achieved a bit more with you.
• 7:56
  So all of those sort of things, I suppose, resonate in the person that's feeling that way.
• 8:02
  Do you see any remnants of apartheid now living here in South Africa?
• 8:07
  I mean, yeah.
• 8:08
  I mean, just in terms of the spatial living of people, you know, I mean,
• 8:12
  the townships are still there and haven't really thrived because of the way the town's set up.
• 8:21
  The racial sort of mix of people isn't as integrated as it should be in one sort of sense.
• 8:29
  It's still there.
• 8:30
  And I'm sure there are pockets of deep resentment for people of some people of white people or deep people of colour.
• 8:39
  The system has sort of changed.
• 8:41
  You know, and people still live in isolated, gated communities of colour.
• 8:47
  So, yeah, you do.
• 8:49
  It's still there, but it's not as obvious and as obvious to the front as, you know, as it was when I first came.
• 8:57
  So when you came for the wedding, you go straight back to England presumably?
• 9:01
  No, so I had a really funny journey.
• 9:04
  So I came for this wedding.
• 9:06
  I was out in the garden roots, which is beautiful, really, really beautiful.
• 9:11
  And so these friends of mine took me out there.
• 9:13
  You know, they'd made me out there, poor.
• 9:15
  But we all went in the car and drove to the garden root.
• 9:18
  And which is amazing, beautiful journey.
• 9:20
  And, you know, the wedding was still there.
• 9:24
  I said, when do you come to Cape Town?
• 9:26
  You know, we're going to go to Cape Town for a few weeks.
• 9:28
  So I thought, you know, you're here.
• 9:30
  I'm going to stay on the city go straight back.
• 9:32
  Stay on, come to Cape Town.
• 9:33
  But at the wedding, I met this agent, I think, who, you know, in my house, I was an actor in the UK.
• 9:41
  And it was about to move and integrate to the state.
• 9:43
  I met this agent there who was, you know, I saw you in the bill.
• 9:47
  I was on an episode of something called the bill at that time.
• 9:50
  She'd seen it.
• 9:51
  And it was like, you know, if you have to come to Cape Town, look me out.
• 9:54
  I'll put my ass sort of stuff.
• 9:55
  And I went to Cape Town and I thought, yeah, let me go.
• 9:59
  I went in to see this agent.
• 10:00
  And she said, that's great.
• 10:02
  Lovely, you're happy to hear.
• 10:03
  And then she, oh, we got so loud.
• 10:05
  How did she put it in touch?
• 10:06
  Because they were known by both of them.
• 10:08
  So she put it in touch.
• 10:09
  She was saying, there's a TV commercial that they want.
• 10:13
  And they want a character that seems to be a bit like you, you know what I mean?
• 10:16
  So go an audition for it.
• 10:18
  So I went into the TV commercial and audition for it and got this commercial.
• 10:24
  And so I stayed on an extra couple of weeks to do this commercial and did the commercial.
• 10:29
  And then about a month later, about three weeks later.
• 10:33
  So I sort of left after doing all these commercials and went back to America.
• 10:37
  I went off to America to start my journey in America.
• 10:40
  So I'm sitting there in America.
• 10:41
  I just moved to America.
• 10:43
  I was just getting my agent on board.
• 10:45
  I just moved into an apartment.
• 10:47
  And I get, again, I don't know how they got in touch with me.
• 10:49
  So they got in touch with me and saying, you know, it's probably about two or three months after.
• 10:54
  It's like you want you to come back to South Africa to do some more commercials.
• 10:58
  I'm like, yeah, great.
• 10:59
  You know, you have to fly me back over for me on the plane.
• 11:03
  And I left half my stuff and I left most of my stuff in this apartment when you flatmate.
• 11:11
  And he had about three weeks time after his commercial.
• 11:13
  I got there and I got off the plane.
• 11:15
  And people started screaming.
• 11:17
  And I was mobbed at the airport.
• 11:19
  And I'm like, it's going on.
• 11:21
  And they were like, very larry, which was the name of the character.
• 11:23
  In the commercial.
• 11:24
  In the commercial.
• 11:25
  And his commercials had gone viral in terms of that time.
• 11:30
  They were huge all over the country.
• 11:32
  So this character that I created was known all over the country.
• 11:35
  And I was just thinking the other day.
• 11:37
  The reason why it resonated so much was because it looked first time.
• 11:40
  But I think let's see a black character on TV and get a strong, confident, fun.
• 11:51
  And if you imagine the rainbow mission in that sort of sense, you know,
• 11:55
  whether you were black, white or colored or Indian.
• 11:58
  People had a love for that character.
• 12:00
  For larry.
• 12:01
  For larry the first amount.
• 12:02
  So that's what it was.
• 12:04
  So yeah, I ended up doing some more commercials and then people offered me out of work.
• 12:09
  And I just ended up 10 years went by.
• 12:12
  And you were still here.
• 12:13
  And I was still here, yeah.
• 12:14
  Did you ever go back to the apartment?
• 12:15
  No, I did.
• 12:16
  I did.
• 12:17
  I didn't.
• 12:18
  No, I didn't.
• 12:19
  I left off my stuff there.
• 12:20
  And I went back a few years, about 10 years later.
• 12:24
  I went back 10 years.
• 12:25
  I didn't go back until, yeah, 10 years.
• 12:28
  So my stuff was there.
• 12:30
  My favorite joke.
• 12:31
  I didn't have a lot of stuff.
• 12:32
  I was a, you know, I was a gypsy.
• 12:34
  It's a kid, but I'm traveling around the world and just setting up.
• 12:37
  So it wasn't a train smash.
• 12:40
  But, um, yes, I tell you it's like, I mean, and I went back because I did a film called Hotel
• 12:45
  Rwanda.
• 12:46
  And, uh, back film.
• 12:48
  So, you know, my career was going.
• 12:50
  I was enjoying being in some articles, giving them to play.
• 12:53
  I was giving opportunities to play a lot of different types of characters and do a lot of different
• 12:57
  things like presenting TV shows and, uh, you know, and, um, hosting, you know, and, you
• 13:04
  know, just the whole bunch of stuff and a lot of different stuff.
• 13:08
  The opportunities that I wouldn't have been given in the UK or why?
• 13:12
  Well, I just, just, you know, there's something to make sure that you're just sticking to your
• 13:17
  land, where you're an actor.
• 13:18
  Oh, okay.
• 13:19
  You know, so I mean, I was presenting.
• 13:21
  I was doing documentaries.
• 13:22
  I was doing a lot of different sort of stuff.
• 13:25
  And also, you know, the restrictions on, you know, it was, I was leaving, um, in because
• 13:30
  of the glass ceiling, you know, the opportunities, one, as, as, as, as much as I would have,
• 13:35
  out for, for actors of color, especially back then.
• 13:39
  But I feel like, even, no, it seems that so black actors, or even we're seeing more like black
• 13:45
  comedians, they're all going to America, as in from the UK to America.
• 13:49
  I think that started back in, you know, certainly when I, I mean, I think that, I think that,
• 13:54
  I think that big influx started when I, when I, by the time I went around that time,
• 13:59
  I thought, but I think that no, they wouldn't still need to.
• 14:02
  You would hope that now they would still need to, but if you're saying, I mean, again, I haven't
• 14:07
  been in touch with the UK scene for a long time, but you would hope that they wouldn't need
• 14:12
  to, but if they're still going on, then yeah, but then you, you know, you look at it.
• 14:16
  I mean, how many black British films do you see?
• 14:18
  And how many films do you see that talk about the black, black British experience from the
• 14:23
  British perspective, you know, and the films that you do see on the whole come out of the
• 14:28
  very cliched working class gangs and drugs and, and people on working class housing estate,
• 14:34
  a ton of movies, you know, so that's the cliches of there.
• 14:37
  That's the, an interesting thing that he was saying, and we're black women.
• 14:41
  That's what they want to promote.
• 14:42
  Yeah.
• 14:43
  You know, and we don't want to tell those, all those, yeah, that exists, but we had a myriad of
• 14:49
  different types of stories to tell.
• 14:51
  And I think, I think it still has its, you know, has its issues as well.
• 14:56
  But I think there's an open, there's a more of an open possibility of doing something
• 15:03
  different.
• 15:04
  Sinners is an amazing sort of, you know, example of aggression of black filmmaking and the
• 15:11
  potential energy that it can, it can get.
• 15:14
  You know, so that's, you know, that's probably why people are still going.
• 15:18
  I think the thing that I learned was in Jamaica, we are very classist.
• 15:23
  We learned that well from, from the team.
• 15:26
  However, the difference when I went back to the UK 10 years ago, I learned that UK's
• 15:31
  classism is very much tied to race.
• 15:34
  So in Jamaica, you could be from a ghetto or a deprived area.
• 15:37
  And if you spoke a particular way, you dressed a particular way, you have that social
• 15:41
  mobility to move into different spaces, regardless of whether you were black,
• 15:46
  or Chinese, Indian, whatever, right?
• 15:49
  Whereas for the UK, my experience was because I am black, I'm never going to be old
• 15:54
  money.
• 15:55
  I'm like, clearly, so be old money.
• 15:58
  Right, yeah.
• 15:59
  Obviously.
• 16:00
  And it seemed that not only was it classist, but then there was a layer of race that
• 16:06
  became important because you couldn't move into every space.
• 16:11
  That's a British thing anyway.
• 16:12
  I think that whole old money thing is what England has been founded on.
• 16:19
  I don't know necessarily.
• 16:20
  It's just because you're flying.
• 16:22
  I mean, I think that, no, it's because of, because the money has been in your family for
• 16:30
  generations and generations.
• 16:31
  So I think that's, but I think you're right in terms of the ability, maybe it's easier
• 16:36
  for the ability to move up a class.
• 16:38
  Maybe, you know, look at David Beckham, maybe, you know, as an example of that,
• 16:43
  the Beckham's, maybe they've moved on a class because of, you know, but they're not old
• 16:48
  money.
• 16:49
  So, you know, it depends on how old money people look to them.
• 16:52
  I mean, I went to school with people that were very old money and English, very established
• 16:56
  English families.
• 17:00
  Yeah, yeah, it's like getting into those circles.
• 17:04
  I'm sure it's a difficult, you know, because the class system exists and it exists in such a...
• 17:11
  You were born in Nigeria?
• 17:12
  I was born in Nigeria.
• 17:13
  When did you go to the UK?
• 17:14
  I went to the UK when I was about two years old.
• 17:16
  Okay.
• 17:17
  Yeah.
• 17:18
  And when you were growing up in England, you grew up in South London?
• 17:21
  It not.
• 17:22
  I grew up in East London and went to East London for a very first time.
• 17:27
  I mean, I remember having a man in Brighton, a man in Page.
• 17:31
  Her name was a wonderful lady up until the age of about five.
• 17:35
  And then we moved back into...
• 17:38
  Then we moved to my parents' house in Dostin at the time, which is East London.
• 17:43
  But that has an office in Dostin.
• 17:45
  There you go.
• 17:46
  So, yeah.
• 17:47
  Most places, when people see names, I have no idea.
• 17:49
  I'm excited that I can actually recognize them.
• 17:52
  What was childhood like?
• 17:55
  Yeah, I mean, it's like being in Nigeria, even though I was not in Nigeria all the time.
• 18:04
  But once you were in a Nigerian family, once you crossed the threshold of the door from our side, you're back in Nigeria.
• 18:11
  So, I remember that.
• 18:13
  Yeah, I remember playing outside with the kids.
• 18:20
  I was a little forest or so much of it back in the front of our house there.
• 18:27
  It's the age of four or five.
• 18:29
  And we'd go out there and put the sauce together and play and that sort of thing.
• 18:36
  Yeah.
• 18:37
  I mean, yeah, a lot of people tell you the hardships.
• 18:41
  But when I had tied two younger brothers and my parents were, they came over to England to study initially.
• 18:50
  You know, I mean, during that time, they faced the racial sort of things.
• 18:56
  No Irish, no blacks, no dogs on the windows to get apartments.
• 19:02
  For then, it was much more of a digital journey, but they shielded us from that sort of...
• 19:07
  No, no, it's always made us sort of get idea that we could achieve anything if we worked hard.
• 19:12
  We could become a minority.
• 19:14
  If you work hard enough, you can become a minister of England.
• 19:18
  That was their thingy.
• 19:20
  So, education was very, very important.
• 19:22
  And then we moved to Enfields.
• 19:25
  I went to a local grammar school.
• 19:29
  And we moved to Enfield and all sorts of things.
• 19:32
  And then my parents decided that they wanted to go back home in Nigeria.
• 19:39
  I was about 14, 15.
• 19:41
  And my mom tells this story that when they took us to Nigeria, after a few months,
• 19:46
  I just knew that it was going through a whole frame.
• 19:49
  And I just said, I didn't want to be there.
• 19:51
  I wanted to be back in the UK.
• 19:55
  And she said, I was looking for my passport to run away.
• 20:01
  So, they decided to let me come back.
• 20:04
  I was 15.
• 20:05
  My brothers were two young.
• 20:07
  So, they decided to let me come back.
• 20:09
  They got me an apartment there with some other older students.
• 20:12
  And for major 15, I was on my own.
• 20:14
  Really?
• 20:15
  When I think about it now, it's like, they trusted me.
• 20:18
  I'd go back every summer, go back for the holidays.
• 20:22
  And I took them from the age of 15.
• 20:24
  I was on my own.
• 20:26
  And I was looking up to myself and taking them and getting myself up to school.
• 20:29
  And just being young, adult.
• 20:33
  When you say that you crossed that border in your home and it was Nigeria, what does that mean?
• 20:38
  Well, that means outside you might be in the UK, but once you're home,
• 20:42
  it's something that rules the discipline, the food, the energy of the house.
• 20:47
  The only thing in my parents didn't really do for us was teach us the language around the Europe.
• 20:52
  And they didn't teach us.
• 20:54
  That was a custom of people coming out of it from nature at the time.
• 20:58
  Especially the moment you were with people.
• 21:00
  They wanted you to make sure that you became as British as possible.
• 21:03
  So, you absorbed the culture that it wanted you to.
• 21:06
  That it wanted me to, which is such a shame really.
• 21:09
  Because that's the one thing that I regret not having is my language.
• 21:13
  Did they see that, basically, the more English you could speak,
• 21:17
  the more advancement you could get.
• 21:19
  That's what that was about thinking.
• 21:21
  The more English you could speak, the more accepted you become in society.
• 21:27
  So, the idea was to just make you a little Englishman as much as possible.
• 21:33
  Talk to me about the food.
• 21:34
  What food did you grow up eating?
• 21:36
  Nigerian, proper Nigerian food, yellow rice, goosey, pounded lamb,
• 21:43
  lamb itself, plantain.
• 21:46
  Plantain, but we'll forgive you.
• 21:48
  Yeah, yeah.
• 21:50
  So, all of that sort of stuff here.
• 21:53
  Can you cook?
• 21:54
  I can't cook actually.
• 21:55
  You can.
• 21:56
  I don't cook.
• 21:57
  So, when you're 15 and you're at the end of the line.
• 22:00
  No, but then I was cooking.
• 22:01
  You were okay.
• 22:02
  But then I was cooking.
• 22:03
  I was cooking.
• 22:05
  It tastes good, or you were just amazing.
• 22:07
  No, no, no, I was cooking.
• 22:08
  I was told myself to cook.
• 22:09
  I would do a great spaghetti by the maze.
• 22:11
  I would do a great ratatouille.
• 22:13
  Oh.
• 22:14
  You know, I'm really sort of, you know, not like it is now,
• 22:17
  because cooking wasn't as singmen.
• 22:19
  But, you know, yeah, I would cook for myself and do a...
• 22:24
  Okay.
• 22:25
  You know what I mean?
• 22:26
  I mean, I had a girlfriend when I was at 1617.
• 22:29
  I remember coming over and cooking her.
• 22:31
  Some rat might fail a ratatouille dish and, you know,
• 22:34
  carbonara ice and make a case spaghetti carbonara.
• 22:37
  Okay.
• 22:38
  But since, since, sort of, getting mad,
• 22:41
  I haven't really cooked.
• 22:43
  I don't really.
• 22:44
  When you went to...
• 22:45
  I mean, Nigeria, with your family,
• 22:47
  when you were around 14,
• 22:49
  do you remember what it was that made you feel like,
• 22:52
  oh, I needed to go back to here?
• 22:53
  Yeah, I think I saw a dead body on the streets.
• 22:55
  I think I get my mom's...
• 22:57
  I get this is all sort of stuff,
• 22:58
  so I'm just sitting, remembering now,
• 23:00
  because I take my mother the other day and she...
• 23:02
  I don't remember.
• 23:03
  I don't actually remember looking for my passport
• 23:06
  or wanting to...
• 23:07
  or seeing the body,
• 23:09
  but I'll be both...
• 23:10
  That's what she said that that was...
• 23:12
  You know, I'd come home and there was a dead body on the street
• 23:15
  and I was really freaked me out.
• 23:17
  And then I sort of said,
• 23:19
  I don't want to be here.
• 23:20
  I'm going to go home.
• 23:22
  Do you feel culturally that you are more British or more Nigerian?
• 23:27
  I'm a citizen of the world.
• 23:29
  And you know, I have a bit of everything in me.
• 23:31
  You know, there's...
• 23:32
  You know, I've called...
• 23:33
  I'm a British nurse...
• 23:35
  very much Nigerian...
• 23:37
  with a bit of American in there as well.
• 23:39
  And so after that...
• 23:41
  You know what I mean?
• 23:42
  So, you know, I embrace all of them,
• 23:43
  because each of them have been a really important part of my growing up.
• 23:47
  You know, in England, obviously,
• 23:49
  from a young age to a...
• 23:51
  through school and university.
• 23:53
  And South Africa is a young man who could just go into himself
• 24:00
  and what that meant and understanding the history of the place
• 24:05
  and embracing, for the first time,
• 24:07
  my full Africanness as opposed to that English Africanness.
• 24:11
  And America, you know, Naga and all its sort of ideological difference
• 24:16
  and nuances about being an African-American, an African,
• 24:21
  and all those sort of things.
• 24:24
  When you finish school,
• 24:26
  how do you get into your current frame of acting?
• 24:29
  So, yeah, so...
• 24:31
  The fact that I came back from Nigeria,
• 24:34
  and I was on my own,
• 24:35
  allowed me to sort of get into it,
• 24:36
  because my parents weren't me to be a doctor.
• 24:38
  You know, to be a Nigerian parents,
• 24:39
  a doctor, an engineer, or an accountant, or a lawyer,
• 24:42
  or something like that.
• 24:43
  And I had this great English teacher.
• 24:46
  I had this fantastic English teacher called Mr. Guy Williams.
• 24:49
  I never began him actually.
• 24:50
  And we would do...
• 24:52
  I was a Julius Caesar.
• 24:54
  He was a massive Charles Dickens fan,
• 24:56
  and he loved his Shakespeare,
• 24:58
  and that sort of thing.
• 24:59
  So during the lessons, when we were reading sort of Julius Caesar,
• 25:02
  he would play Julius Caesar, Mark Antony,
• 25:05
  you took them to us,
• 25:06
  and he would do all these characters,
• 25:07
  and he would sometimes jump on the desk
• 25:09
  and hit two brutes and be really over the top.
• 25:13
  But, you know, I was like, you know, as a kid,
• 25:15
  11-12 was...
• 25:17
  It was interesting.
• 25:18
  Interesting.
• 25:19
  Yeah, that's nothing.
• 25:20
  So really got me into it.
• 25:21
  Many cast me in a school play,
• 25:23
  and, you know, God knows what I was doing in a school play,
• 25:27
  but he cast me in a school play,
• 25:29
  and I remember him sort of say,
• 25:32
  a few summers later,
• 25:33
  but when I was about 14, 15,
• 25:35
  just before reading to Nigeria,
• 25:37
  saying you should do something called the National Youth Fair,
• 25:40
  and that's what I came back for the summer, actually.
• 25:44
  So the National Youth Fair was a youth fair to young people
• 25:47
  from all over the country,
• 25:48
  from all over the UK,
• 25:49
  who come together,
• 25:50
  and who want to do fair to,
• 25:52
  and come together,
• 25:54
  and do workshops,
• 25:55
  and just enjoy being together,
• 25:57
  and playing, and doing fair to in the summer.
• 26:00
  So that's what got me into it,
• 26:01
  and I started the National Youth Fair to,
• 26:03
  and started as a spearcaring, you know,
• 26:06
  and the beach players, you know,
• 26:07
  you started me standing there with a spear,
• 26:09
  and you don't have anything to say,
• 26:10
  but you're just part of a chorus.
• 26:12
  And then I ended up playing a fellow,
• 26:14
  and apparently the fifth,
• 26:15
  but by the time I left,
• 26:16
  and by that time I decided,
• 26:18
  this is what I wanted to do as a career,
• 26:20
  and because my parents weren't around,
• 26:22
  it was easier for me to make a transition,
• 26:24
  you know, I remember telling my dad,
• 26:26
  and he was like,
• 26:27
  okay, you know,
• 26:28
  but your mom's not going to be pleased.
• 26:30
  You know, so she wasn't very pleased,
• 26:33
  but she came around,
• 26:35
  and you saw her.
• 26:36
  Was she worried?
• 26:37
  Because I think my kids want to do
• 26:40
  something in the arts,
• 26:42
  but I'm not saying that it's easy
• 26:44
  to become a lawyer or a doctor,
• 26:45
  but the path we're seeing is a little bit more clear,
• 26:47
  in my mind.
• 26:48
  I kind of know that you need to pass
• 26:49
  to an exam,
• 26:50
  it's a bit more checklist,
• 26:52
  where there's the arts.
• 26:54
  And even now, it's so fluid.
• 26:56
  You know what I mean?
• 26:57
  So yeah, not even my kids.
• 26:58
  I mean, you know, they're both in the arts,
• 27:00
  and one's a photographer for the other ones,
• 27:03
  and saying to music,
• 27:04
  just starting to have music,
• 27:05
  so it's career,
• 27:06
  and someone,
• 27:07
  but I did that one to do anything else.
• 27:09
  I just, no, I wanted them to do business,
• 27:11
  and to, you know,
• 27:12
  guarantee sort of proper pages,
• 27:14
  because it's difficult,
• 27:15
  because you know, every,
• 27:16
  you go like this,
• 27:18
  up and down,
• 27:19
  unless you're one of the few lucky ones,
• 27:21
  or it's always a,
• 27:22
  even then, you know,
• 27:23
  it's always a cycle.
• 27:24
  So yeah,
• 27:25
  I don't blame my parents,
• 27:26
  you know,
• 27:27
  what do you mean to do proper careers?
• 27:29
  Was your dad easier than you one?
• 27:31
  Yeah, he was, actually,
• 27:32
  surprisingly.
• 27:33
  I thought it was going to be the other way around.
• 27:35
  But no, he was a lot easier than me.
• 27:37
  He was more accepting of it.
• 27:38
  I thought that was,
• 27:39
  I thought he would be less accepting,
• 27:41
  but he was more accepting,
• 27:42
  actually.
• 27:43
  And what do your brothers do?
• 27:44
  Well, one's a,
• 27:45
  one's a doctor of business,
• 27:47
  and the other one's a financial.
• 27:49
  Okay.
• 27:50
  I don't know what he does,
• 27:53
  actually, but it's financial.
• 27:54
  You make some money.
• 27:55
  Yeah.
• 27:56
  So you tell your parents,
• 27:58
  this is your new career path,
• 28:00
  and then do you know
• 28:02
  what you have to do next?
• 28:03
  Yeah, I mean,
• 28:05
  then I decided to go for a drama school
• 28:07
  and do that sort of thing,
• 28:08
  so I did bad.
• 28:10
  And then, you know,
• 28:12
  after drama school,
• 28:13
  I was lacking out to go
• 28:14
  to the raw Shakespeare company
• 28:15
  and do a season there,
• 28:17
  and then for a national theatre.
• 28:19
  So my career started off as a young,
• 28:21
  like I had to start off very, very well.
• 28:23
  You know, I've been able to do lead in these,
• 28:25
  and these amazing companies,
• 28:26
  and doing,
• 28:27
  going to watch,
• 28:28
  or with people like Ian McKellen,
• 28:30
  and doing,
• 28:31
  and Brian Cox,
• 28:33
  and people like big, big theatre people.
• 28:35
  So that's how we sort of started.
• 28:37
  Was there any,
• 28:39
  any point early on in that period
• 28:41
  where you questioned your decision?
• 28:43
  I remember,
• 28:44
  I've never questioned my decision
• 28:45
  to be a writer,
• 28:46
  because there's something
• 28:47
  that I enjoy completely,
• 28:48
  a question of the opportunities,
• 28:51
  you know, in the lack of opportunities,
• 28:53
  or the frustration of that.
• 28:55
  But I'm never questioned now.
• 28:57
  Even now, I don't question it.
• 28:59
  Even though it's a different time,
• 29:01
  I don't question the idea.
• 29:03
  I mean, the first time I thought I could do something,
• 29:05
  or do something else,
• 29:06
  was when I directed,
• 29:07
  which was a couple of years ago,
• 29:10
  and I directed my first feature film,
• 29:12
  which hopefully will be coming out this,
• 29:14
  this, this, this for.
• 29:15
  Okay.
• 29:16
  So as I was sitting in the director's chair,
• 29:19
  I remember thinking,
• 29:20
  you know what, I could do this,
• 29:21
  instead of being a writer.
• 29:22
  This is one,
• 29:23
  I was at one time,
• 29:24
  and I've read it for,
• 29:26
  not questioning the decision of being a writer,
• 29:28
  but I thought that I could do something else as well.
• 29:30
  Talk to me about changing that lane, right?
• 29:33
  You're used to being in a particular position,
• 29:35
  and now you're directing.
• 29:36
  How, how is that experience different?
• 29:39
  It's different in terms of it's more,
• 29:42
  it's all encompassing, you know,
• 29:43
  I mean, being a director,
• 29:45
  what I found was that,
• 29:47
  you know, everybody comes to you on set
• 29:50
  with their problems,
• 29:51
  you know, you're dealing with costume,
• 29:53
  you're dealing with makeup,
• 29:54
  you're dealing with the crew,
• 29:55
  you're dealing with everybody coming to you
• 29:57
  as the last part of the call.
• 29:59
  But also,
• 30:00
  artistically, you have the whole creative vision, you know,
• 30:03
  it's your creative,
• 30:05
  yeah, you collaborate,
• 30:07
  but it's your overall vision
• 30:09
  that's going to be on there.
• 30:10
  And that's, to me,
• 30:11
  it's very, very exciting to have to be able to paint
• 30:13
  the whole picture,
• 30:14
  to be able to be the,
• 30:15
  you know, that canvas,
• 30:16
  when you're the one who's putting the paint on that canvas,
• 30:19
  it's very exciting,
• 30:21
  very different from being an actor,
• 30:23
  and that's the sense
• 30:24
  where you're just a tidied color in the canvas,
• 30:26
  or, you know,
• 30:28
  the one brushstroke, you know.
• 30:30
  How do you think the industry
• 30:32
  has changed all the time?
• 30:34
  Well, it's changed in term,
• 30:35
  it's changing rapidly now,
• 30:37
  in terms of the whole AI,
• 30:39
  you know,
• 30:41
  you know, people I'm going to the cinema as much.
• 30:44
  So I think,
• 30:47
  you know, that's how I see it,
• 30:49
  it's changing, you know,
• 30:50
  it's trying to re,
• 30:52
  I mean, during COVID,
• 30:53
  it was great,
• 30:54
  because people at home would be all watching
• 30:56
  and all that sort of stuff,
• 30:58
  that is slowly sort of
• 31:00
  into the way,
• 31:02
  those big studios are trying to find out,
• 31:04
  how to redefine themselves,
• 31:06
  there's podcasts now,
• 31:08
  there's verticals,
• 31:09
  and there's all the lot of different,
• 31:10
  you know,
• 31:11
  there's the YouTube,
• 31:12
  there's a lot of different ways
• 31:13
  and opportunities
• 31:15
  for people to get into being in front of the camera,
• 31:17
  or being on the,
• 31:18
  I mean, there's change in terms of,
• 31:20
  I think something he mentioned,
• 31:22
  the idea of getting in front of a television screen,
• 31:25
  or on camera,
• 31:26
  now it's easy,
• 31:27
  because you can set up yourself
• 31:28
  and just go out there,
• 31:30
  and so it's become more democratized
• 31:31
  in one sort of sense,
• 31:32
  but then,
• 31:33
  you know,
• 31:34
  does that mean the skill base has gone down,
• 31:36
  because people aren't,
• 31:37
  necessarily,
• 31:38
  doing it,
• 31:39
  doing it,
• 31:40
  so I try to become a doctor
• 31:41
  and be going on sale,
• 31:42
  or be a doctor now.
• 31:43
  It's sort of,
• 31:44
  that sort of thing,
• 31:45
  the skill hasn't been,
• 31:46
  I haven't been taught.
• 31:47
  Do you think that there's been a water-down version,
• 31:51
  not necessarily,
• 31:52
  just based on what people are producing,
• 31:54
  but,
• 31:55
  our overall respect,
• 31:56
  or lack thereof,
• 31:57
  of the craft,
• 31:58
  they should speak so much of.
• 32:00
  Yeah, I mean, I don't know how, you know,
• 32:02
  I think,
• 32:03
  people that love the craft
• 32:04
  will delve into it in the way
• 32:06
  that they should do,
• 32:07
  and I'm there,
• 32:08
  people that just don't even know,
• 32:10
  they say,
• 32:11
  it's just that jumping into a sale,
• 32:12
  I want to be a 9-12,
• 32:13
  I want to do this,
• 32:14
  I want to be in front of there,
• 32:15
  and just,
• 32:16
  just diving in feet first,
• 32:17
  without any,
• 32:18
  true understanding,
• 32:19
  or knowledge,
• 32:20
  of the craft,
• 32:21
  and the paper,
• 32:22
  is a craft,
• 32:23
  and a skill.
• 32:24
  I think, as a consumer,
• 32:25
  we only really appreciate the craft,
• 32:29
  when it's gone wrong.
• 32:31
  You know,
• 32:32
  when you completely
• 32:34
  absorbed into a movie or a drama,
• 32:36
  and you're just with the story,
• 32:38
  and you're following along,
• 32:40
  you don't really appreciate what is going on,
• 32:42
  but when you watch something,
• 32:44
  and it's poor quality,
• 32:46
  then you're like,
• 32:47
  oh,
• 32:48
  but having said that,
• 32:49
  you know,
• 32:50
  you look at sort of the,
• 32:51
  especially only knowledge,
• 32:52
  for example,
• 32:53
  you know,
• 32:54
  and the quality was,
• 32:55
  some of it,
• 32:56
  I mean, was sometimes,
• 32:57
  was so dreadful,
• 32:58
  it was unbelievable,
• 32:59
  but, you know,
• 33:00
  what they had was storytelling,
• 33:02
  and you know,
• 33:03
  sometimes,
• 33:04
  you know,
• 33:05
  and that's what it's important,
• 33:06
  it's a really, really good sort of storytelling.
• 33:08
  So, yeah, we know it,
• 33:10
  but as long as it's a story is intriguing,
• 33:12
  and good,
• 33:13
  and then,
• 33:14
  and grossing,
• 33:15
  then, you know,
• 33:16
  you forget those little,
• 33:17
  sort of,
• 33:18
  inconsistencies sometimes.
• 33:19
  Right.
• 33:20
  Do you,
• 33:21
  in your industry,
• 33:22
  talk a lot about AI,
• 33:23
  in terms of the future,
• 33:24
  do you foresee
• 33:25
  that we're going to have movies
• 33:27
  where there are people?
• 33:28
  Yeah,
• 33:29
  no, I think it's inevitable,
• 33:30
  and I think,
• 33:31
  and I think that we're,
• 33:32
  probably get to a stage where,
• 33:33
  you know,
• 33:35
  you'll be able to choose
• 33:36
  where the more you want to see,
• 33:37
  AI,
• 33:38
  total AI movie,
• 33:39
  or,
• 33:40
  or you want to,
• 33:41
  you prefer to see,
• 33:42
  the shimmings,
• 33:43
  you know.
• 33:44
  Okay.
• 33:45
  We'll get to that sort of phase,
• 33:46
  because the,
• 33:47
  the AI is here,
• 33:48
  and it's here to stay.
• 33:49
  It's just, you know,
• 33:50
  I would prefer to see,
• 33:52
  a human-based movie,
• 33:53
  rather,
• 33:54
  and AI movie.
• 33:56
  The same with music,
• 33:57
  you know,
• 33:58
  you know,
• 33:59
  some, we'll get to a phase,
• 34:00
  I think,
• 34:01
  where we'll have a choice.
• 34:02
  Okay.
• 34:03
  Rather than it being all a one,
• 34:04
  but, you know,
• 34:05
  you know,
• 34:06
  and the music consumer can decide,
• 34:07
  whether or not you want to do,
• 34:08
  see a movie
• 34:09
  that's totally an AI,
• 34:10
  or a movie that has human actors in it.
• 34:13
  So for a young actor now,
• 34:15
  who has to deal with the lay of the land,
• 34:17
  as it currently exists,
• 34:19
  what does one do?
• 34:21
  I have no idea.
• 34:22
  To tell you the truth,
• 34:23
  I have no idea.
• 34:24
  It's just,
• 34:25
  you know, there are all these different,
• 34:26
  little platforms to get out,
• 34:28
  to get out there,
• 34:29
  but how you monetize that,
• 34:31
  and then how you,
• 34:33
  you know,
• 34:35
  get your audience,
• 34:36
  and, you know,
• 34:37
  make sure that your IP is,
• 34:39
  is solid.
• 34:41
  This is not, you know,
• 34:42
  the game of the rules of changing.
• 34:44
  So it's,
• 34:45
  it's, it's
• 34:46
  anybody's guess at the moment,
• 34:47
  and people are just trying things against the wall
• 34:50
  and see if this exists.
• 34:52
  That time
• 34:54
  where you were going to the States,
• 34:56
  before the wedding,
• 34:57
  the plan is to go to America.
• 34:58
  Right, right, yeah.
• 34:59
  Are you feeling,
• 35:01
  a sense of it being daunting?
• 35:03
  Are you super excited?
• 35:04
  No, I'm,
• 35:05
  I'm, some excited.
• 35:06
  I mean, I'm excited
• 35:07
  because of the possibilities
• 35:09
  were going to be there more than they were. I sort of stopped it. I didn't want to do
• 35:13
  any more theatre. Okay. So I wanted to do some television. I wanted to do my film. Those
• 35:18
  opportunities weren't forthcoming then in the UK. So I decided that I just was frustrated
• 35:25
  about just being an actor of colour and just the work that was there in the UK and being
• 35:30
  offered. Is it that there was too much on the scene? Yeah, a bit of everything, really,
• 35:36
  too much on the scene, not enough with anything. Yeah, just the storytelling. Yeah, I just
• 35:43
  didn't like it, didn't like it, so I wanted to change. So that's why I went to America.
• 35:48
  And I went there because it was exciting. It was an exciting idea of it. It was very exciting.
• 35:56
  But I was only there for three months initially. And then life had other plans. Yeah, which
• 36:01
  I love because I discovered, I mean, I did the hotel Rwanda while I was in South Africa.
• 36:08
  And I'm not sure if I was in America, but I'm not sure if I would have caught that part.
• 36:11
  So you were casted for the role here? Yeah. Okay. Did you keep the same agent that you met
• 36:17
  at the wedding? I did for years until she passed away. Yeah, she was quite old then, but
• 36:23
  yeah. Okay. Civil sands, her name was wonderfully, wonderfully. Did any part of you during that
• 36:31
  time question whether you should stay? I think coming from the perspective of we think
• 36:35
  of America and we think, yeah, man, that's where you go in your industry to make it. And
• 36:40
  I understand that there were opportunities here, but everything in life has an opportunity
• 36:44
  to cost. So last thing here, you're not there. And I just wondered. Yeah, I mean, but you
• 36:48
  know, and I was, yeah, I mean, I was in, I mean, what I think about it now is I was, it
• 36:53
  was all encompassing when I was here. And the film came just at the right time. And it
• 37:01
  gave me a leg to sort of springboard off of being America without being one without having
• 37:06
  to scramble around for it. Then, you know, I got an agent already from that. And, you
• 37:12
  know, you know, producer came to see it and was casting piles of the Caribbean because
• 37:20
  of that, you know, so it was a natural sort of springboard. And my nice story about America
• 37:25
  is I was sitting on set with Don Chidle and then in Hotel Rwanda. And I remember thinking,
• 37:31
  I said, yeah, I'd like to go back to America at some point. And he said, you know, man,
• 37:35
  if you ever come out there, man, you know, give me a couple. And I'm like, yeah, yeah,
• 37:41
  he gave me his number. I'm thinking, yeah, I don't want to ever happen. You know, I'll
• 37:46
  go out there and he'd call him in there. But I went out there and then some of the Oscars
• 37:51
  are there. And I went out to a night from the back of that and gave him a call. And he
• 37:56
  was like, hey, man, I'm sorry, man, I can't come out. I put my leg, but come over to my
• 38:02
  house and meet the family. And, you know, so I went over to his house, had coffee, sat
• 38:09
  and chatting about what it was like being like an actor in America. And he was gracious.
• 38:16
  He was lovely. And he invited me home. And it was an amazing touch. So I showed him my show
• 38:22
  reel, which I'm sure the time was really incredible. And he might have now was like, because
• 38:26
  he hadn't had one piece of it. But he graciously sat through that and, you know, poor guy.
• 38:34
  But he probably won't even remember the story, but it was for me, it was, you know, it was a
• 38:38
  wonderful thing for him to do to a guy to come out to America for the first time to, you know,
• 38:45
  to, you know, invite me to his house and sit there and talk, talk, talk with me for a while.
• 38:51
  Is that the role that you would say changed your career the most? Yeah, I think so. Sort of
• 38:58
  kicked it off in terms of just being able to do other stuff and being in America and do
• 39:03
  some sort of different exciting roles in that sort of stuff. And then also being on the
• 39:10
  continent as well, because, you know, so people, I mean, I did it. So when I was in a
• 39:15
  mind, I did 24 TV series called 24. And the series was a really exciting TV series. And
• 39:23
  they had their, and they cast me as an African general. And which resonated around the
• 39:29
  continent. I didn't know this until I came back with this character again. You know, it was really
• 39:35
  resonated because it's the first time again that I've seen a home grown African positively. Yeah,
• 39:41
  I mean, it wasn't a positive character as such, but it was, you know, it was something real
• 39:46
  and grounded and they kicked America ass. You know, which I think they loved as well. So,
• 39:52
  you know, it was the first time that that happened. So that, and that sort of got me coming back
• 39:56
  to the concert and getting involved in different TV and then to know it would movies and, you know,
• 40:05
  various other movies and then around the concert. Were there any points where you're growing and
• 40:12
  just looking for these other opportunities to lead you in the right direction that you thought
• 40:17
  that a physical opportunity was going to be perhaps more impactful than it happened to me?
• 40:22
  Yeah, I mean, there's a, you know, more impactful. I mean, I suppose maybe, what I did at film
• 40:32
  called, I did a film on Bob and Carvee. And the script was really good. Of course,
• 40:38
  it was the, you know, we did anything by way and we were allowed to go and she didn't
• 40:42
  in that way. We shot at the parliament and most of it was very, it was a low-budget comparatively
• 40:46
  but, you know, it was okay. We had very inexperienced producers on it. I mean, you know,
• 40:52
  unfortunately, the film didn't, I was hoping because I loved the character that got me together,
• 40:58
  really honest. But it gave a very honest look at the man, you know, Robyn Garvey,
• 41:09
  and in Western European, Western European, look at the man with a real honest look at his
• 41:15
  complete nature and what he achieved and also the downside, but mostly what he achieved as well.
• 41:22
  And I thought I was hoping that that would be more impactful than it was, but I'll show you one.
• 41:28
  When you think looking back on where you've lived, where has changed you as the individual,
• 41:37
  not career-wise, I just mean as your character.
• 41:39
  Yeah, being in South Africa.
• 41:42
  What about you?
• 41:43
  Just everything, just embracing my Africanness. I think it's been really important, just understanding.
• 41:50
  I mean, that's been based on my opinion. That's not just because of South Africa, because
• 41:54
  understanding what Africa is and understanding the depth and beauty because I've been able to
• 41:59
  travel the continent more or less, you know. So seeing these different cultures, understanding
• 42:04
  where I'm from and understanding the beauty of this continent and the beauty of his people and
• 42:13
  now you get a lot of perspective when you're in Europe and an America of what this continent is
• 42:18
  like. So being on ground here has really helped me understand who we are as a people.
• 42:24
  What do you think are some of the things that we should know for people who haven't had those
• 42:28
  experiences?
• 42:31
  We're a wonderful, proud, and gracious, intelligent people who need to be in a space to tell our own
• 42:39
  stories from our own perspective. So empower the next generation because we have everything on
• 42:44
  this continent. You know, we have everything on this continent and we must get out of the shackles
• 42:51
  of colonial, the colonial shackles we're still. So they keep us down. We must sort of try to get
• 42:57
  good leadership and empower people, especially young people. And after this, it's going to have
• 43:06
  like 60-70 percent of the world's youth in a few years' time. So it's, you know, and how do we
• 43:14
  empower these youth to think positively, to grow a continent, to empower the next generation?
• 43:23
  So I think that's what I would like to see.
• 43:28
  For some people, they say that South Africa isn't really Africa.
• 43:32
  Well, it is because it's on the continent. And it's a different aspect of Africa.
• 43:36
  I mean, it was a very continent. It's a very, very, very continent. And you
• 43:42
  can come to Cape Town and it's very Euro-centric. You leave Cape Town and go to the rest of the
• 43:49
  country and, you know, it's Africa for sure. You know, and Africa is a mixture of many,
• 43:57
  many different things. So, you know, again, don't plan to the cliché.
• 44:01
  Because what is Africa? Well, we're many nations with many, many different cultures and many different
• 44:07
  tribes and then colors and languages. And yeah, we're united about being on this continent.
• 44:16
  When you were growing up in England, were you always proud of your Nigerian side?
• 44:19
  Yeah, because this is what you are. It's a Nigerian people that didn't like you with
• 44:24
  it's your makings. It's fun because you're two similar babies.
• 44:29
  Yeah, we are. Every time now, I see a Jamaican. I think you're either Nigerian or Jamaican.
• 44:34
  I'm not a lot of Nigerians, but I've actually gone to...
• 44:36
  Yes.
• 44:36
  ...Generate, Florida.
• 44:37
  I did, um, D&M, and it's a, yep, it's Nigerian.
• 44:42
  Yeah, I think that's it, because I can tell by the look and message that,
• 44:45
  yeah, we used to, the Jamaicans, yeah, back in the day that really give us a hard time
• 44:51
  for being African.
• 44:52
  Really?
• 44:53
  It's funny because I think that when I look at Nigerian mannerisms, I see the connection.
• 45:00
  I see the energy that some people might translate to aggression,
• 45:05
  which I don't perceive it as aggression. I perceive it as confident, as cold.
• 45:11
  I see that, and that's what I find with Jamaicans as well, that sort of confident, bold,
• 45:15
  sort of thing, very similar to Nigerian.
• 45:17
  I think also there's something about, and you can correct me if I'm wrong,
• 45:22
  but sometimes other African nations perceive that Nigerians are over the top in the way that
• 45:27
  other Caribbean countries perceive that Jamaicans aren't sure for the top.
• 45:31
  No, I'm sure, I'm sure that's the case, yeah. Just a sense of self, a great sense of self,
• 45:35
  a proud, proud, I mean, again, I think it comes from the education,
• 45:42
  or sort of idea that no one is better than Nigerian.
• 45:46
  I mean, it's that sort of mentality that you, you know, it's like your parents would tell you,
• 45:53
  you know, you come home and say, yeah, I could create a school today, I got a B,
• 45:56
  I got an A, A, and it's like, yeah, it's a plus, who got the A?
• 46:01
  Yes.
• 46:01
  I came second, who came first, and it's that mentality that a lot of Nigerians
• 46:07
  sit with, I'm sure it's the same in Jamaica as well, I say.
• 46:10
  It's also something I struggled with coming to the UK, I found England quite,
• 46:15
  and I should say London, I don't have much experience outside of that,
• 46:18
  but I found it quite anti-competitive, and for us, competition isn't a bad thing.
• 46:23
  It doesn't have to mean that you are filled or riddled with negativity for the other,
• 46:28
  it just means that you want to achieve the best version of yourself,
• 46:32
  and I found that the UK was very much in its participation middle,
• 46:36
  like fees, which I found quite strange.
• 46:39
  Yeah, I mean, I don't know again, I don't know too much about what the UK is doing at the moment,
• 46:44
  but I can see that, you know, I can see that.
• 46:47
  But, you know, again, I think maybe it depends on where you go to school,
• 46:50
  because isn't there a way of lollying people, killing the masses?
• 46:54
  In this comfort zone, sort of, there's no, you know, there's no revolution to,
• 47:01
  and there's no hope for them to rise up.
• 47:04
  Yeah.
• 47:05
  So I think there's a lot of that going on, you know.
• 47:08
  Life in Cape Town, have you always lived in Cape Town?
• 47:12
  I've spent some time in Johannesburg a while.
• 47:13
  Okay.
• 47:14
  I love Johannesburg, it's a great city, it's great, it's great.
• 47:18
  I mean, it's very, very different to Cape Town.
• 47:21
  Can you describe some of those details?
• 47:23
  Yeah, it's much more, more after good in its way,
• 47:25
  there's more people of color doing great things, you know.
• 47:29
  And, you know, more black ownership up there as well.
• 47:32
  So, yeah, it's a, and it's, it's a very friendly city, you know, in terms of people,
• 47:38
  you know, you go into a bar and you're only, you're not with 20 friends,
• 47:42
  whereas in Cape Town, it's a bit more sort of thinking in a bit of a mask,
• 47:45
  because everybody here is on holiday, but Cape Gilbert there,
• 47:49
  to work in some, and there's no, they're not surrounded by the obvious mountain and sea,
• 47:54
  and that sort of thing, so they get on with, you know, the energy of the people,
• 47:59
  I love it, and it's a great energy, and the energy of the people is really amazing,
• 48:03
  so it's a really great, great city in that sense.
• 48:05
  Why did you choose to live in Cape Town?
• 48:07
  Because it's pretty.
• 48:10
  It is gorgeous.
• 48:11
  Yeah, I didn't want to be in a city for the house, I don't need to be in that house.
• 48:14
  I mean, my work takes me, oh, you know, I'm on a plane,
• 48:17
  I'm testing all over the place, and I need to do a city.
• 48:21
  Have you always been that, because I feel that it's only like in the last year or so,
• 48:25
  that I realized city life just isn't my jam, whereas before that,
• 48:29
  if you told me where I needed to live, I would feel that,
• 48:32
  yeah, I'm gonna have to be in the city.
• 48:34
  Yeah, I mean, I did LA for a long time, you know,
• 48:36
  with 10 years in LA as well, so, I mean,
• 48:40
  the LA is a weird city, because it's a big, you know, it's a motorway.
• 48:45
  You know, I mean, you were always in the kind,
• 48:46
  it was something, so London, I did when I was younger,
• 48:51
  grey, it's a city, New York, I spent some time in New York, great, but yeah.
• 48:57
  So, I mean, each place, for me, each place has come at its right time.
• 49:01
  Okay, you know what I mean?
• 49:02
  So now Cape Town is where I want to be, it's a beautiful city,
• 49:06
  I love the lifestyle, the wonderful store and corner and surroundings,
• 49:13
  and, you know, the aesthetic of the place, so that's where I want to be.
• 49:17
  Do you think that you will like Steve forever in Cape Town?
• 49:20
  I don't know what forever is, so you can see it.
• 49:26
  For the foreseeable.
• 49:27
  Yeah, for now, yeah.
• 49:28
  Okay, but I'm not one of those people that have to
• 49:32
  could have flagged, you know, if the universe wants to be somewhere else,
• 49:36
  and it happens to feel right, that I'll go.
• 49:39
  How did you meet your wife?
• 49:41
  So I was coming, I was here out of that, doing a film, I was about to do a film,
• 49:47
  and a friend of mine was coming over from the UK,
• 49:50
  and I was looking for here as a dress,
• 49:53
  where they are, and she happened to be working as,
• 49:58
  she was like, on stage, you know, and so, running there, the accommodation.
• 50:06
  And I was looking, I was driving down the bar to Kent,
• 50:09
  and her officers were right opposite to some of the houses,
• 50:13
  where I thought that he was staying, and I'm not on the door,
• 50:16
  and she came out and said, no one's there,
• 50:17
  and I said, I'm looking for so and so,
• 50:20
  and, well, because I remember driving up and down to her,
• 50:22
  I'm thinking, and I saw her in the window to the big one,
• 50:24
  I thought, oh, she's cute, I'm driving up and down,
• 50:27
  and then, once she came out, I came into the office,
• 50:30
  and, I mean, yes, she was very cute,
• 50:33
  and just sort of asked for where my friend was,
• 50:35
  and she said that he was here,
• 50:36
  and I sort of made her one as well for lunch, dinner.
• 50:41
  How long after you guys are together, do you have children?
• 50:46
  Oh, very quickly, actually, yeah, very quickly.
• 50:48
  We've been together for six months,
• 50:50
  before she was pregnant, it's very quick, yeah.
• 50:52
  Oh my god, it's telling me how you feel,
• 50:54
  knowing that she's pregnant, and you're going to have a bubble.
• 50:57
  Yeah, it was a bit of a shock, obviously,
• 50:59
  that wasn't, you know, we just sort of,
• 51:02
  but, um, yeah, it was, it was, it was kind of,
• 51:06
  so we met, so we met, I was doing a TV,
• 51:10
  I was doing a film in Namibia,
• 51:13
  and I asked her to come to Namibia during the break,
• 51:17
  so we could go from go to a holiday,
• 51:19
  and she came out in Namibia,
• 51:21
  and I got a car from this film set,
• 51:24
  and we drove off to, we were going towards the Toshapan,
• 51:27
  and as we were going on, the roads were quite incredible,
• 51:31
  it was really dangerous in Namibia,
• 51:33
  and we had a double blowout,
• 51:34
  we had a car loose tires.
• 51:36
  Twice?
• 51:37
  Twice, while the two tires were messed up,
• 51:40
  it blew its tires, the car flipped over,
• 51:42
  and this is in the middle of nowhere on the desert road,
• 51:45
  the car flipped over, I was flown out of the car,
• 51:48
  I was conscious, right, dislocated my left arm,
• 51:52
  and she, luckily, the car was, my side was crushed,
• 51:57
  as she managed to get out of the car,
• 51:58
  walked around to the back of the car,
• 52:00
  pulled the car, it landed on me,
• 52:01
  like it hadn't,
• 52:02
  and then, and as I came around,
• 52:06
  the car came down the other right,
• 52:08
  this is in Namibia,
• 52:09
  if you know Namibia,
• 52:10
  this doesn't have them off,
• 52:11
  and on these desert roads,
• 52:12
  you see a car of this few days,
• 52:13
  the car came down the other three,
• 52:15
  it was coming on the other,
• 52:16
  it stopped, it saw us,
• 52:18
  I, from getting conscious,
• 52:19
  it beat us up,
• 52:21
  he was going,
• 52:21
  and he was going to the local hospital,
• 52:23
  this guy,
• 52:24
  and he beat us up,
• 52:25
  and took us to the local hospital,
• 52:26
  so,
• 52:26
  and that's where sort of,
• 52:28
  yeah, it was just an amazing miracle that,
• 52:31
  this guy,
• 52:32
  was on this road,
• 52:35
  took me to the hospital,
• 52:36
  they patched me up,
• 52:38
  I had to stay there for a few days,
• 52:40
  and then,
• 52:41
  in the middle of the day,
• 52:42
  the she looked after me,
• 52:43
  she really looked after me,
• 52:45
  and it was very calm,
• 52:46
  and I mean,
• 52:46
  it's been traumatic for her,
• 52:47
  you know,
• 52:48
  we hardly knew each other,
• 52:50
  but she really looked after me,
• 52:52
  and I think that's really where it's sort of,
• 52:54
  I thought, yeah.
• 52:56
  That, it's crazy.
• 52:57
  Yeah,
• 52:58
  I didn't know that's where the story was going.
• 53:00
  Yeah, not really.
• 53:03
  Wow.
• 53:04
  So, when you have your first daughter,
• 53:07
  how does that change you as a person?
• 53:09
  Yeah, I mean, I think,
• 53:11
  you know, the wonder,
• 53:12
  you know, I still traveled a lot,
• 53:14
  I still did a lot of traveling,
• 53:15
  but, uh,
• 53:17
  and it was just,
• 53:19
  I mean, I don't know.
• 53:22
  You just sort of get ready for
• 53:24
  a different way of,
• 53:27
  you know, you realize that you've got to,
• 53:29
  you know, you're responsible for three people,
• 53:32
  you know,
• 53:33
  and not just one,
• 53:33
  and you're just going to get ready for a different way of being.
• 53:36
  I mean,
• 53:37
  my career was, I mean,
• 53:38
  I remember traveling a lot,
• 53:39
  I still traveled a lot,
• 53:40
  so when I got back,
• 53:43
  there was one time when I came back,
• 53:44
  and I'd be the way I don't know how light,
• 53:45
  be a wakeboard,
• 53:46
  and she was very young at the time,
• 53:47
  but she refused to come to me,
• 53:49
  you know,
• 53:51
  she saw me and then started crying,
• 53:53
  and then,
• 53:53
  my friend was holding her,
• 53:55
  and she was like,
• 53:56
  you were heading on to him,
• 53:58
  and so that was difficult,
• 53:59
  you know, and I realized,
• 54:01
  you know,
• 54:01
  you're a bit away a lot,
• 54:03
  in a long time,
• 54:05
  but, you know, I'm just my work,
• 54:06
  so I had to,
• 54:07
  and it's how you balance work in family,
• 54:09
  that's the one thing,
• 54:10
  yeah, it's like trying to balance those things.
• 54:12
  20 children,
• 54:13
  I think,
• 54:14
  I learned through them
• 54:16
  that they don't care about titles,
• 54:17
  but they don't care that you're dead.
• 54:19
  They don't care.
• 54:20
  They don't care,
• 54:20
  auntie,
• 54:21
  yeah,
• 54:21
  they just don't care,
• 54:23
  and their currency is time,
• 54:25
  in a way that I think,
• 54:27
  if we allow our ego as adults
• 54:29
  to take up to more space in the room,
• 54:32
  it can lead us astray in terms of,
• 54:34
  what do we do next, right?
• 54:35
  Like, if a child,
• 54:37
  a niece doesn't want to come and give you a cuddle,
• 54:39
  if you allow,
• 54:40
  like the ego at the forefront,
• 54:41
  your next move might not be the right one,
• 54:44
  the right moves.
• 54:46
  Was there anything about
• 54:49
  fatherhood that surprised you?
• 54:53
  I wasn't really ready for it,
• 54:54
  I mean, you know,
• 54:55
  have each of my children,
• 54:57
  apart from the last one,
• 54:58
  came as a real shock,
• 55:00
  even the last one was a surprise,
• 55:01
  because she was like eight years later.
• 55:03
  Okay.
• 55:03
  So each of them came as a,
• 55:05
  wow, okay,
• 55:06
  so I wasn't really,
• 55:07
  and I wasn't really,
• 55:08
  didn't really plan to have children
• 55:10
  but I didn't plan not to,
• 55:11
  and so they all sort of just came,
• 55:14
  and I just dealt with it as they came,
• 55:15
  and my second one was born at home.
• 55:18
  So my wife was pregnant,
• 55:21
  and we were still living in that walk out,
• 55:24
  and she had about a week to go,
• 55:28
  maybe two years ago,
• 55:29
  and two o'clock in the morning,
• 55:31
  I hear this screaming next to me,
• 55:33
  and she's like,
• 55:33
  ah, my woman,
• 55:34
  you know, what's the problem?
• 55:36
  Broken,
• 55:36
  and I know she was in the bathroom,
• 55:38
  and then that's it,
• 55:39
  and I woke up,
• 55:40
  rushed the bathroom,
• 55:40
  it was wrong.
• 55:41
  No, I came up with what was broken.
• 55:42
  Okay, no worries.
• 55:43
  The hospital was literally down the road,
• 55:45
  it was good.
• 55:46
  Literally, we could have walked there.
• 55:48
  I'm going to get a car,
• 55:48
  get the car,
• 55:49
  and we go to the hospital,
• 55:51
  and then she said,
• 55:52
  I can't, I can't go.
• 55:54
  And I said,
• 55:54
  I feel the baby's coming now,
• 55:56
  and the baby was coming.
• 55:58
  You know, I could look,
• 55:59
  and I could see the crowning,
• 56:00
  and so I had to put it on the couch,
• 56:03
  and I just played the doctor's,
• 56:05
  put it on the couch,
• 56:07
  and it's all over the place.
• 56:08
  And the baby came out,
• 56:09
  luckily came out,
• 56:11
  and the baby came out in my hands,
• 56:12
  and this is my second one,
• 56:14
  and I put it on the baby on the chest,
• 56:17
  and put it on the chest,
• 56:18
  and then,
• 56:19
  kept the unbeatable cord was attached,
• 56:20
  and then found the hospital,
• 56:22
  and actually found my neighbor,
• 56:23
  found the hospital,
• 56:24
  and I was,
• 56:24
  that's when the panic started working.
• 56:25
  Up until then, I'd been calm.
• 56:27
  I couldn't find the phone,
• 56:29
  and they just,
• 56:30
  all right, I was all over the place.
• 56:32
  He went on my neighbor,
• 56:33
  who hadn't had any children,
• 56:34
  and he had no idea what she was like,
• 56:35
  what happened?
• 56:38
  And found the ambulance,
• 56:39
  and said, okay, just keep them warm,
• 56:40
  and we'll be there in two minutes,
• 56:42
  which they were, you know,
• 56:43
  and I kept them warm,
• 56:44
  and there were two minutes,
• 56:46
  and then,
• 56:47
  the creature,
• 56:48
  if anybody could go,
• 56:49
  brought some water,
• 56:50
  and then when I was at the hospital,
• 56:51
  I said, why do you tell the guys
• 56:53
  to pull just to get them out of the way?
• 56:57
  Yeah, so my second one was born at home,
• 56:59
  in my hands,
• 57:00
  which was the most incredible thing,
• 57:02
  and I was doing,
• 57:03
  so then I was a newspaper article,
• 57:06
  they were called Mr. Delivery.
• 57:09
  That isn't in the story.
• 57:12
  Wow, do you have favorites?
• 57:14
  No, no, it's all they're all three,
• 57:16
  very different girls,
• 57:17
  or they've got many guards,
• 57:20
  they've got,
• 57:21
  they've got them,
• 57:22
  you know, I'm in poor done,
• 57:23
  amazing,
• 57:24
  you know,
• 57:25
  especially not having a dead pill all the time,
• 57:27
  you know, they've done amazing,
• 57:29
  we're able to swim in,
• 57:30
  because she's very independent.
• 57:32
  She went to a traveling boarding school,
• 57:34
  which is 14,
• 57:36
  so she insists she,
• 57:37
  then so traveling is in her,
• 57:39
  and so it's a NYU in a city.
• 57:42
  Already?
• 57:43
  Graduated from NYU.
• 57:45
  The dean of NYU Business School,
• 57:47
  when I was in New York,
• 57:48
  was Jamaican,
• 57:49
  just in case,
• 57:50
  since people think that we're only good for
• 57:52
  regular music,
• 57:53
  and I think it's kind of,
• 57:54
  it's good, good, good,
• 57:55
  good, good, good,
• 57:56
  get that in there.
• 57:57
  Yeah, yeah, she was a test,
• 57:58
  she was a test,
• 57:59
  so it was a creative art school.
• 58:01
  Okay, um,
• 58:02
  and in the middle one,
• 58:04
  um,
• 58:06
  went to NYU,
• 58:07
  but during COVID,
• 58:08
  and then hated it,
• 58:08
  it was just not a good,
• 58:10
  uh,
• 58:11
  yeah,
• 58:12
  she just didn't like it,
• 58:13
  so she came by,
• 58:14
  so she did a year,
• 58:16
  a year there,
• 58:16
  more or less,
• 58:17
  and then dropped out of there,
• 58:18
  and came by to sell out the pen,
• 58:20
  and got into USC.
• 58:22
  Okay,
• 58:23
  decided to go to that,
• 58:24
  because she was,
• 58:25
  she was a California girl,
• 58:26
  so she went home there,
• 58:28
  and the baby is 13,
• 58:29
  and here with us,
• 58:31
  you know,
• 58:33
  how are you different in,
• 58:35
  in fathering,
• 58:36
  because they've come at different stages?
• 58:37
  For example,
• 58:38
  my,
• 58:38
  I'm the baby for my dad,
• 58:40
  and I am the favorite.
• 58:41
  Right.
• 58:41
  It's okay.
• 58:42
  Everyone knows my sister.
• 58:43
  I said they did another podcast,
• 58:44
  and she goes,
• 58:45
  you're lucky,
• 58:46
  I'm not sensitive.
• 58:46
  You did not skip a beat to tell the world that you,
• 58:50
  but, um,
• 58:51
  you know,
• 58:51
  my dad had me when he was 40
• 58:53
  versus my brother when he was 20,
• 58:55
  and then my sister in between,
• 58:56
  so we've obviously got very different versions
• 58:58
  of him based on where he's
• 59:01
  in his life,
• 59:02
  and I just wonder,
• 59:02
  looking back on you and your journey,
• 59:05
  how do you think you're different?
• 59:06
  And in terms of just having more time,
• 59:08
  especially for the little one,
• 59:10
  you know,
• 59:11
  the first two came as a big, big shot.
• 59:13
  By the time the little one camera,
• 59:14
  and it was that,
• 59:15
  I'd realized, you know,
• 59:16
  you'd been,
• 59:18
  because the first two were a bit of a blur,
• 59:20
  you know, a lot of ways,
• 59:21
  but the little one,
• 59:22
  if they have to spend time with her,
• 59:23
  and the last,
• 59:24
  I mean, since COVID,
• 59:25
  I've spent a lot of time with her,
• 59:26
  because you know,
• 59:27
  I've been moving around the world in the same way,
• 59:29
  so the COVID has been,
• 59:31
  that was the best, the good thing.
• 59:32
  It's hard on work,
• 59:33
  but it's been good to have been able to sort of see a growth
• 59:36
  from being a little thing to 13 years old,
• 59:40
  and a little woman.
• 59:41
  And culturally,
• 59:42
  do they are,
• 59:43
  because they all went to school here?
• 59:46
  No, they went to school.
• 59:47
  The first two went to school one in America.
• 59:50
  Okay.
• 59:50
  For, you know,
• 59:52
  the oldest one went to a global sort of boarding school,
• 59:55
  which traveled the world.
• 59:57
  So it's a really interesting school,
• 59:59
  actually,
• 1:00:00
  called Finger Global.
• 1:00:01
  Okay.
• 1:00:02
  And they take it from age of 14,
• 1:00:05
  they take you,
• 1:00:06
  take you,
• 1:00:06
  they, you go to the school,
• 1:00:07
  and they go on a,
• 1:00:09
  do a different country,
• 1:00:11
  because semester,
• 1:00:12
  so she traveled to,
• 1:00:13
  all over the basement.
• 1:00:14
  I've never heard of this.
• 1:00:15
  No, it's great.
• 1:00:16
  So each semester,
• 1:00:17
  you're in a different country.
• 1:00:18
  For a country, yeah.
• 1:00:19
  So from 14 to 16?
• 1:00:21
  No, from, from,
• 1:00:22
  so I think it was from 15 to,
• 1:00:24
  till she graduated,
• 1:00:25
  17 or 18, yeah.
• 1:00:27
  That's not amazing.
• 1:00:28
  Yeah, she had a fantastic time.
• 1:00:30
  And she's got some great people there
• 1:00:32
  that she met,
• 1:00:32
  and more over the world.
• 1:00:34
  And it was a really amazing time
• 1:00:36
  that she had,
• 1:00:37
  really amazing a school.
• 1:00:38
  There's a couple of South Africans actually there.
• 1:00:41
  But so that was her school in bed.
• 1:00:44
  But for middle one,
• 1:00:45
  went to the American International School
• 1:00:47
  and concession it,
• 1:00:48
  the little one goes there at the moment.
• 1:00:50
  Okay.
• 1:00:51
  Do, I know you have to speak for them,
• 1:00:53
  they're not here.
• 1:00:53
  But in your opinion,
• 1:00:55
  do they feel that they are South African
• 1:00:58
  or do they also have this impression
• 1:01:00
  that they're licensed?
• 1:01:01
  I don't think that the Nigerian thing is very heavy,
• 1:01:05
  you know what I mean?
• 1:01:06
  Because it's me,
• 1:01:06
  but one, but yeah,
• 1:01:08
  so I talk to them,
• 1:01:10
  I think they think that,
• 1:01:11
  I don't know what they think they are,
• 1:01:12
  but the Nigerian thing is,
• 1:01:13
  it's strong.
• 1:01:14
  It's strong,
• 1:01:15
  in this one.
• 1:01:17
  When you had just met your rise,
• 1:01:20
  she's from South Africa.
• 1:01:21
  Yeah, she is, yeah.
• 1:01:22
  Were there any cultural differences
• 1:01:24
  that you had to explain
• 1:01:26
  from both perspectives,
• 1:01:27
  from her perspective that you needed to understand?
• 1:01:30
  Just just the power of a Nigerian mother,
• 1:01:33
  but maybe that's just a mother-in-law anyway,
• 1:01:35
  but you know,
• 1:01:36
  there's just a bit more sort of,
• 1:01:39
  there, you know,
• 1:01:40
  and, you know,
• 1:01:41
  so I think that was,
• 1:01:42
  I didn't explain it very well,
• 1:01:43
  preserved.
• 1:01:44
  But,
• 1:01:46
  yeah, that would be the cultural difference,
• 1:01:48
  yeah.
• 1:01:48
  In terms of her physical presence
• 1:01:50
  or her influence in day-to-day.
• 1:01:53
  Yeah, all of that sort of,
• 1:01:54
  all of the above,
• 1:01:55
  I think, you know,
• 1:01:57
  did your mom like her?
• 1:02:01
  Yeah, I mean, you know,
• 1:02:02
  it was just a young girl that married her son,
• 1:02:06
  so it was like,
• 1:02:07
  I'm not sure,
• 1:02:08
  it wasn't a question of dislike,
• 1:02:10
  it's just like, you know,
• 1:02:11
  the same cultural aspect of being,
• 1:02:14
  but which she didn't quite understand.
• 1:02:16
  It was like,
• 1:02:20
  I do not rather not say it,
• 1:02:22
  it really hurt.
• 1:02:24
  So, when you think of your daughters and their careers
• 1:02:28
  and where they are,
• 1:02:29
  do you think that the best move
• 1:02:31
  was to leave New South Africa?
• 1:02:34
  Well,
• 1:02:36
  well, I think my daughter's very very,
• 1:02:37
  they went to school in America
• 1:02:39
  for the first two.
• 1:02:41
  I think it was good to leave America
• 1:02:44
  when we left,
• 1:02:45
  so that middle one was 10, 11,
• 1:02:49
  when we left to come back to South Africa.
• 1:02:52
  But it was perfect for her,
• 1:02:53
  because she was becoming a bit of a valley girl.
• 1:02:56
  Oh my God, oh my God!
• 1:02:58
  And, so, you know,
• 1:03:00
  and also helped to discover
• 1:03:03
  her after the pandemic.
• 1:03:05
  Yeah, she went to a school where there were a lot of
• 1:03:08
  kids from the continent as well and
• 1:03:11
  global kids.
• 1:03:12
  So, she wasn't isolated in a South African context.
• 1:03:16
  So, yeah, it was very good for her to
• 1:03:19
  for us to come back and have that. So, you know, that world would have a more
• 1:03:24
  holy view. And even if she stayed in America, she's stayed in America, in America
• 1:03:27
  century. Because now she's got a much more global look at the world. And this
• 1:03:33
  little one will have that too. It's funny because I went to boarding school for a
• 1:03:37
  short time in Bath. Yes. And at the time I remember like the girls
• 1:03:45
  rolling their skirts up very high. It was an all-girl school. I don't know why
• 1:03:49
  we're rolling up skirts for an all-girl school. But okay, that was just like
• 1:03:53
  the vibe. They would jump the wall. There was a boy school nearby. And me being
• 1:03:57
  me, I would tell my parents, like, tell my dad everything I was like, what is
• 1:04:00
  going on? And then I came home for Christmas. And my dad was just like, yeah, you
• 1:04:06
  don't get back. He's like, yeah, you know, you know, and looking back, I don't think
• 1:04:12
  I was even that disappointed to be honest because I always felt, although I
• 1:04:16
  didn't really like being there, but say they had painted the swastika very
• 1:04:21
  large on the wall. You know, teachers had told me to go back to where I
• 1:04:24
  come from. Right. People were making eopnoises.
• 1:04:27
  What was the private school? My cousin, my friend met me after you
• 1:04:33
  came to cheer the power. But bath on a whole, again, prior to that, I had done
• 1:04:38
  some of that stuff in London. So I thought England was London. I didn't
• 1:04:42
  appreciate it. Once you get outside London, it's a very different, very
• 1:04:45
  different. And so I wasn't so much disappointed that we were leaving. I kind
• 1:04:49
  of wish I had a heads up, you know, but I look back and I'm very grateful that
• 1:04:55
  they made that decision because I think I would have been a very different
• 1:04:57
  student. I stayed in high school the whole time. Yeah, you would have the whole
• 1:05:02
  time there. Yeah, my eldest went to, she was at a private school in Los
• 1:05:09
  Angeles before she went to the travelling boarding school and you know, and she
• 1:05:15
  just got bored with it. I mean, we work, again, not many people of colour there
• 1:05:20
  together, you know, I just think, I'm a girl, it's a bit privileged and boring.
• 1:05:27
  So, you know, that's why she told me it's changed schools. Do you go back to
• 1:05:32
  England often and on? And my mum's there. So I go back, I go back because, you
• 1:05:36
  know, once a year, maybe a couple of times if I can. And does there, and do you
• 1:05:43
  ever get this desire to stay longer? No, not at all. Okay. No, not at all. No, I
• 1:05:49
  don't like it. I don't like the weather, I don't like crowds. I mean, it's a great
• 1:05:54
  place to be. I specifically, yeah, I think it's great. It's a city to be, but
• 1:05:58
  it's not a city that I want to live in and be. It's my man for me to even think
• 1:06:06
  about the idea of being trapped in London. It's funny because I feel like when I,
• 1:06:10
  since we've been travelling, when I look back at whether it's images or
• 1:06:14
  videos or people in England, I'm also, how did I last so long? So long. And it's
• 1:06:19
  not, you know, I've never loved living there. Right. However, I think when you're
• 1:06:23
  there for purpose and you're focused on your why, you genuinely don't see
• 1:06:28
  some of the other things. Right. And like, how long were you there for? So 10
• 1:06:33
  years. 10 years. And I think, like, no, I remember that feeling of having my
• 1:06:39
  shoulders up in my ears. Right. And it's only when you come inside a room and you
• 1:06:43
  start to defrost that you realize, although you've been holding them, just a little
• 1:06:46
  thing. Yeah. Yeah. Or, you know, we've been in only warm countries now. And again,
• 1:06:52
  I'm from a hot place. But I don't know if I could do cold again. For, especially
• 1:06:57
  for an extended period, it's one thing to do. Okay, we're just going to be here
• 1:06:59
  for a couple of months. Yeah. But to live in the cold, I'm not sure. I can't, I
• 1:07:04
  can't, I mean, in Ketown, winter, sir. Are they actually real? No, you know,
• 1:07:10
  they're not, but they're nothing in comparison. The worse, you get a month of it
• 1:07:14
  being really cold. But then after that, it's, you know, it's, it's livable. You
• 1:07:19
  know, yeah, no, the cold. And it does, I think for me and London, it's even more so
• 1:07:25
  degraded than the core. Because New York, a lot of times, it's a similar
• 1:07:29
  temperature. But it's blue sky. I mean, the first time I went to school in New York,
• 1:07:34
  the blue sky definitely tricked me because again, I don't know temperatures,
• 1:07:38
  right? Like in Jamaica, you're never going to hear someone say, oh, it's XYZ
• 1:07:42
  Fahrenheit today. Yeah. Right. It means loving. Yeah. That's all we know.
• 1:07:46
  It's all too hot. That's it. And so I get to New York and I see blue skies and I
• 1:07:51
  immediately think, oh, it must be, it's hot. It must be fine outside. And I go outside,
• 1:07:55
  I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, we're going to, we're going to go back in. And so from
• 1:08:00
  then I started to look at temperatures, but you then go to the UK and it's the
• 1:08:05
  grey that I think gets to me. And it feels like it's sitting on your head. And also,
• 1:08:12
  I do think that obviously people are individuals, right? Wherever you are,
• 1:08:17
  they're individuals. However, I do think that locations have a general culture
• 1:08:22
  that you can, you can feel. And when you're outside or as well, I think you're
• 1:08:26
  noticed things in a different, different way. And one of the things that struck
• 1:08:30
  me was even this year. So we were in Dubai for New Year's. And it's the first meal of
• 1:08:37
  the year, literally New Year's Day breakfast. There's a table behind us, a couple and all
• 1:08:42
  the couple from the UK. And they're mourning about the fact that the government gives too
• 1:08:47
  much money to aid. They don't like the welfare system. And they're just complaining. And I'm
• 1:08:51
  not saying that they shouldn't complain. I'm saying, this is your first meal of the year.
• 1:08:57
  You are in a foreign country. You've come on holiday as a couple. Why are you spending the
• 1:09:03
  entire time sitting there completely? And to me, in that moment, I've a side. I don't want to be a
• 1:09:10
  part of that. You know, I do. That's why I don't want to be there. What would you say is
• 1:09:19
  South African culture? Like what would be the things that unified? Obviously, there are
• 1:09:24
  differences amongst people. But if you were to describe the people and the culture here.
• 1:09:31
  You know, I mean, it's very, you know, damn, I'm very friendly but open.
• 1:09:38
  There's something culture. But, you know, I don't really know. I mean, just pop in the African
• 1:09:44
  culture at the length. And Jenna Ross steaks up the spirit. You know, I think that's the main
• 1:09:51
  thing that I notice. You know, you're, you know, no matter how people are hard. That's where it's,
• 1:09:57
  you know, there's always a hollow and good morning. You know, you know, you know,
• 1:10:00
  the acknowledgement of your existence in the streets, no matter how people are, you know.
• 1:10:08
  Is there anywhere in the world that you want to go that you haven't been?
• 1:10:10
  Yeah, Brazil and Jamaica. Yeah. And you just say Jamaica because you know,
• 1:10:14
  you're going to enjoy it. I want to go to Jamaica, actually. Why Brazil? I want to go to Brazil.
• 1:10:19
  Brazil. Just because it's got the older, it's the only place outside in Brazil. It's any place
• 1:10:25
  outside where I speak the Eurobra. I didn't know that.
• 1:10:28
  I didn't know that. I didn't know that. I didn't know that.
• 1:10:30
  I didn't know that. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. I didn't know that.
• 1:10:32
  Which is a language in my childhood that five people are from. And so I'm going to just
• 1:10:37
  fast find it by visiting, I did a Brazilian, a Brazilian culture and same ancient Eurobra culture
• 1:10:44
  practiced in Brazil. One of my longest chefs, she was from Brazil. And I used to always tease her.
• 1:10:53
  I'm like, you know, you're black right? And she's like, I know, but she would also acknowledge
• 1:10:57
  that so many Brazilians don't know. Oh, yeah, right. And I do find culture. I thought their food
• 1:11:03
  was going to be more spicy. Right. Maybe it depends on what you're from in Brazil.
• 1:11:07
  I don't know. I've had like Brazilian food from Brazil. I'm not talking restaurant food.
• 1:11:11
  I'm talking like when cooked kind of Brazilian food. And I guess because I think of like dancing
• 1:11:16
  and vibrant colors and carnival. Anything to spice. Maybe you're maybe by here. I wonder if
• 1:11:22
  they're in by here. I'd be interested to know because when like you'd have fesuala and there's
• 1:11:28
  it's flavorful in the sense that like they're burning the garlic and not but it was just never hot.
• 1:11:32
  It was never spicy because you can make a spicy evident spice. Everything is hot.
• 1:11:37
  I'm trying to my cheer as well. I like her heat.
• 1:11:39
  Proper spice. It's funny. I went to a Chinese hot pot in the UK and the gentleman comes over
• 1:11:48
  and he's asking, how hot do you want the broth? And we were with some new people that didn't really know me
• 1:11:53
  which is relevant because I kept sort of my commentary like inside my home.
• 1:11:57
  Right. Right. So when he is coming over like, how spicy do you want it? In my mind, I'm thinking,
• 1:12:01
  but I'm Jamaica. I can handle whatever you've got. Right.
• 1:12:05
  Thank goodness. I kept my inside voice because the Chinese people heat is a different
• 1:12:11
  because it's just hot. You know, for us like the main spice is scotch bonnet which is floral
• 1:12:16
  and it just has it has flavors other than not heat. And then you go to like parts of Asia and the
• 1:12:24
  pepper, it is very very hot. He literally, he said mild so you could split the pop up. One was
• 1:12:31
  neutral nothing and then mild. I took one little pepper from the the mild and put it in the other
• 1:12:36
  side because I couldn't handle mild. It was crazy. Yeah, I don't like it. I don't really like the hot
• 1:12:42
  too hot. No, not too. I mean, I can take, yeah, because it gives me kick ups as well.
• 1:12:47
  What I say, you know, I don't really, I mean, I can't taste the food. I don't really like it too
• 1:12:52
  spicy. A little bit, a little bit. A little something. A little something.
• 1:12:56
  In terms of food, you spoke in the beginning about how in your home food was a big part of your
• 1:13:03
  childhood and connecting you to your culture. Do you think that food is one of those things that
• 1:13:09
  is always going to kind of bring you back to a certain version of yourself? I'm not sure. I just
• 1:13:16
  need to live. Are you like my diet? I mean, I do like food, but I like a variety of different foods.
• 1:13:22
  You know what I mean? So, you know, whether it be Jamaican, do you jerk chicken or
• 1:13:28
  or you haven't had it really yet, babe? No, no, yeah, I'm not in Jamaica.
• 1:13:31
  It was hard to talk for you, right? And whether or not it'd be Jelaf or
• 1:13:36
  or Japanese food or, you know, what you hear, the local South African dishes here, you know,
• 1:13:42
  yeah, I mean, I just like different foods. Is there anything you don't eat?
• 1:13:47
  I'm pork. Really? Yeah. That's it. Oh, you're easy. Yeah, I am.
• 1:13:53
  Is there anything that you would have wanted to share or touch on that we haven't?
• 1:13:57
  You know, we've done the gamut, haven't we? We are. I have one more question for you.
• 1:14:02
  If you're in life with a postcard, what would the picture look like?
• 1:14:05
  I'll be me on a tropical island. It'd be sort of, you know, sunny and beautiful.
• 1:14:10
  Amazing. The only thing that's missing is Jamaica. That's right. But we're going to fix it. Thank you so
• 1:14:15
  much. Pleasure. Thank you, Pat. Thank you.