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E34 REDUX: Working Man's Way - When Therapy Isn't the Answer · The Junto Podcast

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Hello, America. Welcome to the Junto Podcast, where we promote the practical
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applications of critical thinking and bold creativity.
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I am your host, Edgar Mills. Thanks for joining.
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Hello, America, and welcome to episode 34, The Redux.
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Yep, this is a redo on the original podcast of episode 34.
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The audio was so horrible that I felt compelled to do it again.
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So that's what we're doing. So what we're talking about here is we're talking
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about shortcomings of therapy as it relates to the working man, The lower middle class,
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working class man who some people may think needs therapy.
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And we're going to talk about all the reasons how and why that's challenging.
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So put yourself in these shoes.
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You're a typical masculine American guy. You're the sole breadwinner for your
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family, a single income family.
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You grind every day at whatever blue collar job you have in order to keep your
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lights on, pay your medical emergencies.
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Keep your potentially piece of crap, 15, 20-year-old car on the road.
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You got chronic back pain, knee pain, ankle pain from years of manual labor
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and frigging years of stacked up unaddressed injuries.
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And right now, your current idea of success is just paying the bills before
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late fees hit and that all your kids have shoes that fit.
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Some people call you angry or disconnected. Some of the church moms,
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most likely in a much higher tax bracket,
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they pull your wife to the side and tell her that your husband should really
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consider getting counseling or therapy.
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What are your thoughts on that?
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What are your thoughts on that? So this all started with an article I read.
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And it was just a little short article, a social media thing.
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And I can't even vouch for the, well, anyway, scientific validity of it all.
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But how it read was a corrections officer with 30 years of experience made an
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observation on the ex-cons,
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the guys who got out of prison.
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And his observation was that there were
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some who were able to get out of prison and drive on and within five years achieve
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a level of success and even a little bit of wealth once they got out.
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And what he noted was that they shared, from his point of view,
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that they shared one key sort of commonality, and that was that they rejected
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therapy and all this trauma processing and all this mental wellness,
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all these mental wellness programs and stuff that you get in prison.
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And those guys simply rejected it. They suppressed their pain and their...
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Their past and their traumas of their circumstances,
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and they focused, they laser focused on taking action, making progress, and getting success.
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And that's what they did. Now, that was a very few.
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In contrast, what he noticed was that the inmates who were getting out, Eventually,
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they did engage in all this counseling and all these programs,
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and he noticed that the majority of them who did engage in that,
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they stayed poor, and they were not able to move forward and achieve success.
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They went right back to the ghetto, and they lived in the same lifestyle.
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And even further, they kind of sometimes would, based on that therapy,
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kind of develop a victim mentality.
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And that just stifled their progress.
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And what he observed
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directly challenges what sort of current doctrine or dogma among the psychology
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in the psychology field that says that it's toxic to suppress your past traumas.
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And what this corrections officer observed is that, and the opposite was true,
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that it fueled achievement and that the excessive emotional processing became
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a crutch for these guys and almost addictive, right?
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Once you're in the victim class, once you think you're a victim and then you
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start getting treatment based on being a victim, then it's addictive.
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And so that that crutch that you're using now becomes a barrier.
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An obstacle for you to actually grow, you know, emotionally or psychologically or whatever.
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So that passage contrasted the two opposite and incompatible approaches where the traditional,
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thinking is that you can't, you have to heal before you can proceed forward
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and before you can succeed.
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You have to address these traumas and heal these traumas before you can move Fort.
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And then there's the age-old masculine manly man technique of bury your trauma,
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behind a wall of frigging indestructible stone and then just move forward with
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relentless and unstoppable drive,
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to achieve whatever it is you're trying to achieve. Is that healthy? Maybe not.
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Do you got to be a tough guy to do that? Maybe. I don't know.
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So everything I'm going to talk about here.
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So look, take note, and I'm going to disclaim now, I am uneducated.
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I am formally uneducated, and my education solely derives from life experience
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and all the things that I've witnessed and experienced from my childhood onward.
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But I do agree with this corrections officer's observation because I live it. That's the way I do it.
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Now, I'm not saying that's right. I'm saying that's the way I do it.
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You can acknowledge the past trauma and you can even continue to feel sharp deep pain from it,
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but you don't have to dwell in it and you don't have to relive it over and over and over,
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session after session after session with a therapist to try to gain some kind
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of imaginary healing or some kind of imaginary peace that may or may not sustain,
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that may or may not be rock solid.
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So I quote Willie Nelson, I've got a long list of real good reasons for all the things I've done.
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I've got a picture in the back of my mind of what I've lost and what I've won.
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I've survived every situation knowing when to freeze and when to run.
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And I know just what I'd change if I went back in time somehow.
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But there's nothing I can do about it now.
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What's the point of that? You cannot change the past, folks.
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You can manipulate the way you think about it, the way you feel about it,
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the way it affects your behavior.
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You can manipulate all that, but there's not a damn thing you can do to change the past.
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So let's take what that corrections officer posed, and then let's try to see
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what modern therapy might do or not do for us.
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It's all about the cognitive behavioral therapy, right?
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CBT. and it's meant to
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help you change your your well the
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way you think about things not obviously not
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change the past but the way you think about it and and the way it affects your
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behavior and and the way it makes you feel feel we're going to be talking about
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feels here a lot and essentially it's meant to rewire your brain and so that
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the the traumas don't don't control you or your behavior,
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and so that you can identify them and then, I don't know, question if they're true or not.
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If a thing happened, it happened, but not necessarily if it's true,
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but if it still holds validity in your life of any sort, and then take a realistic
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approach to deal with that.
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That's what cognitive behavioral therapy is supposed to do.
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Essentially, to change the way we think.
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And this stuff, so it proposes that by unpacking every old wound and every old
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trauma, that's how you heal.
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But I argue this, and I think that that corrections officer argued this probably.
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You can get in this and get into this cycle, kind of being addicted to therapy.
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You can get in this endless cycle of, well, reflection.
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Now, I'm not saying reflection is bad. On the contrary, reflection is very good.
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But then you get into this cycle of reflection with this therapist.
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And to me, instead of moving forward, you're just kind of just dwelling and
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regurgitating the past over and over and over.
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And to me that technique sort of sort of goes along with well you will eventually
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get better well i don't put any stock in eventually i think deliberate attack
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is the way to go on things like that so i kind of think that that all this cognitive behavioral therapy.
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It kind of makes you just relive this stuff over and over. And I think it's
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meant to, so that you can then change the way you think about it.
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However, I don't put it in anyone else's hands to change the way I think.
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So, I mean, what if this therapy that all the people are doing out there,
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what if this therapy is secretly holding them back from real progress and real development,
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emotional development, and more importantly, autonomy.
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And then what if, or why, not what if,
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why do you think it clashes so hard with the personality type I described in
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the beginning, these manly men, these working class manly men?
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Why does therapy clash so hard with these guys' urge and will and drive to take
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action as opposed to constantly ponder?
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So the personality type I'm talking about here is...
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Would say i guess type a personality masculine
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manly man working class guy
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responsible for a family responsible for
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for things at work
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like who who
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might embody some traits some like maybe
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stoic action-oriented type ethos
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guys that that have
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make it happen sort of mentality extroverted
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thinking process and they think through things with logic and practicality get
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the job done get the job done and they don't send spend countless hours and
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and introspection They look at a problem,
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do a quick analysis on the best way to solve a problem, and then move forward.
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This personality type I'm talking about, that's who we're contrasting here with this therapy.
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And that puts me in the mind of a general patent quote that a good plan violently
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executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week.
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And that's not to say that we are impatient or rushed, that's to say that we
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are decisive, these types of men.
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And I think I'm kind of like one of those types, maybe even toxic a little bit.
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Solve the problem, move forward. Solve the problem, move forward.
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Now, if you're a health professional and you're listening, mental health professional,
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and you're thinking, you're probably listening to this right now going,
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man, this guy needs therapy.
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Maybe I do. So how does this stuff clash with this personality type?
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This stuff that pushes you to process your trauma, and I'm doing that with finger
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quotes, rehashing memories, rehashing old traumas and things like that.
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A friend of mine who is a therapist, and so I'm not meaning to poo-poo on his
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profession. I'm just saying it affects different people differently.
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He mentioned EMDR the other day. We were talking about this and he mentioned that.
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And that's that's got something to do with you know
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you you deal with these these traumas
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and these old these negative memories by reprocessing
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them and doing you know crazy eye movements and and and things like that kind
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of kind of like and they liken it to like REM sleep you know rapid because in
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your deep sleep you know your eyes are moving back and forth and stuff so somehow Now,
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that is meant to gradually, eventually learn to control your feelings by confronting
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them and reducing, you know.
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Minimizing your sort of anxiety and all this stuff over these past things.
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I think that's a trick, personally, a parlor trick. That's what it seems like to me.
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And a lot of these techniques in this modern psychology
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here it kind of puts me in the mind of the the catchphrase you've all heard
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it analysis paralysis i thank you for spending all this time and now analyzing
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these things over and over and over and over and how they make me feel how do
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i feel feel feel feel i mean.
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Guys like me, the personality type I've explained, they reject this. They reject it.
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And for some of us toxic men, former loners, I'm not a loner anymore,
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but yeah, I was a loner back in the day.
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Us holdovers from the 70s and 80s where we grew up with male role models who
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were just frigging hard.
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It's not that we suppress trauma or
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past bad memories it's not
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that at all it's that we compartmentalize it
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we put it in its place and then don't
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waste energy on it you put your energy into something productive whether
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it's friggin just everyday survival for
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the lower economic spectrum
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there or if you're building your fortune 500 company you
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ain't got time to sit and dwell in past traumas and
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and if that if those past traumas are creating some
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kind of negative energy you channel that energy man and put it towards something
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tangible and positive just like these ex-cons we talked about they who who got
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success using that that technique that makes more sense to guys like us.
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That makes more sense to guys like us. It aligns with our personality type. Action over analysis.
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Using the hardship as fuel rather than excuses.
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Saying therapy is bad. And I'm not saying some people won't benefit greatly
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from cognitive behavioral therapy.
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Some people. I'm talking about personality types now.
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And why does therapy fail for these guys?
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These guys, you wake up at dawn, you clock in for a shift that barely covers your damn rent.
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Then you go home dead tired.
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Your paycheck barely covers the bills.
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You're literally one disaster away from frigging financial ruin.
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Inflation has just smoked your balls for the past couple years.
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Pay scale is stagnant. In most working class jobs, pay scale is stagnant unless
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you own your own company.
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And then if you don't own your own company, then you got to worry about job insecurity.
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There's a lot of things. And yeah, you think, yeah, those guys need mental,
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they need some kind of positive mental health efforts.
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But the mental health takes a backseat.
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You got debt. You got unexpected emergency medical bills.
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Your car broke down. Survival instinct kicks in and you got to prioritize putting
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food on the table over scheduling $150,
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therapy session that you don't have time for anyway, because you got to go to
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your second job so that you can actually pay the bills.
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Luxury is what that is. That's, that's all it is.
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It's luxury to be able to have somebody to sit with somebody for 20,
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30 minutes or an hour and talk about your feelings.
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Your average guy. He just can't afford it. You could prioritize.
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You could redo your budget, maybe to try to squeeze that in.
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But then you got to deal with time.
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And if you're there, where's the kids? What's the wife doing?
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And for some guys like me, it can be looked at as a little bit like selfish even.
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Now, that being said, folks, I am not trying to stigmatize therapy.
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Mental health is very important and
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if you're on the cusp of suicide or
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are just a nervous breakdown i mean yes mental mental wellness is is critical
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and if the manly man toxic way is not working for you by all means seek seek
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out therapy but i'm just i'm just trying to point out where it fails us.
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And then there's trust, man. That's the foundation of anything, a relationship.
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And how am I going to get effective therapy from, one, a stranger,
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and then two, just some rando that I don't know what this guy's life is like
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other than what he presents to me in his office.
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He might be a great human, man.
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But he also might be a child molester. There's just so many things going on.
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You don't know what's going on with this human.
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So how can you put blind trust in them?
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Not only how can you, I mean, why would you?
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But that trust is necessary for a guy, a manly man, to share with...
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Anything, but especially like fears and vulnerabilities and, you know, weaknesses.
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I'm not going to share that with people that I don't know intimately.
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And then the working class masculine types kind of have a general distrust from
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a therapist and the system anyway.
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I have a general distrust for the medical system overall, but specifically the mental health system.
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And that's possibly because as a child, I saw the movie One Flew Over the Cuckoo's
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Nest, and that probably sits in my subconscious deep and affects the way I think about that.
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But I have a fundamental problem when a doctor can declare me mentally unfit
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to walk amongst people in society.
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If a doctor chooses, a psychologist can, if he can write very specific things
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on a piece of paper, and the next thing you know, you are involuntarily detained,
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depending on what he thinks.
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So if he don't know you intimately, is it possible that even a highly educated
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therapist can misconstrue or misinterpret what you have going on on your insides?
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Yeah, the system, distrust of the system, man. That's a big thing. It's a big thing.
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And then therapy has the potential, you know, to just the environment itself.
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It can feel very clinical, right?
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Like, you know how it is when you go into a doctor's office and it's like the lights are harsh.
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Everything's just blah. You know,
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it's great. It's very similar feeling to walking into a prison. Right.
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Nobody likes that feeling. So for guys like that, man, what's a better option for guys like that?
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For me, it's confiding in a friend.
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Imagine your best friend, whoever that is, take a couple of seconds and sit
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here and think about your very best friend.
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And then imagine, okay, man, I got this deep issue.
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And then you go to your best friend and you lay it out. You say,
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hey, man, I'm having hard times processing this, you know, whatever it is.
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I think my wife's cheating on me.
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I'm having a hard time dealing with my dad's death.
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I'm just, it's constantly messing with me.
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Anything, whatever it is, what do you think that dude's going to do?
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I'll tell you what he's going to do.
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He's going to do everything within his power to help you make it right,
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to help you deal with that situation as best you can.
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Because he knows, and when I say as best as you can, he knows your strengths
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and weaknesses already just from being your best friend.
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He knows that you're apt to anger outbursts.
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Me and my friend timmy have a we used to have a
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running joke because we were teammates and stuff like that
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and we've always worked in close proximity and and the joke was that he was
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my handler because i was prone to angry outbursts yeah i was an angry guy i
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was prone to angry outbursts and he's a very calm very calm even-keeled dude
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which i got to imagine is part of the reason why we're best friends.
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Might work, if not better, at least as good as some therapy? I think so, man.
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You know why? Because it's a genuine relationship and there's trust.
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It's organic. The trust is organic.
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Yeah. It's a naturally occurring trust that builds between two guys that endure
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some sort of hardship together or have some sort of deeper connection and you feel,
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yeah, you may feel a little vulnerable when you're telling, telling him these
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things, but you trust because he's your best friend and he knows you better
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than most people. Yeah. Like, yeah.
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Little embarrassing, but he's going to help me fight through it.
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I think that is infinitely more valuable than, than some therapy.
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And what's another reason? Okay. We talked about, there was some sort of the,
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the reality of, of economic status. That's one.
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And then trusting someone to, to share the things you need to share.
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That's another, but, but, and then
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there's just sort of a just a general mismatch with
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the realities of daily life man therapy going
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to therapy on a regular basis assumes that you have the luxury of time that
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you have the emotional bandwidth to even process consider how to heal your inner
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child or your whatever but you're too busy, you know,
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being the provider, man, to indulge in that. It's an indulgence.
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And let's be realistic about daily life, folks.
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Like if the car breaks down, it's got to get fixed. The kids need to get to
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school and they need to get back home from school.
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They need to get to baseball practice. We're trying to help them develop.
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So they're doing sports, right?
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They're being around other kids and interacting and doing things.
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And then if you got a bunch of kids and you got doctor's appointments,
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or if your wife has, or you even have some kind of chronic illness, you know what I mean?
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You got doctor's appointments all the time. Those things cut into your life.
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They stack up. And those things, those aren't optional things, folks.
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Those are immediate fires that have to be extinguished on a daily basis.
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And what does that mean? What do we call that?
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Life. That's what it's called. That's life.
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Life happens every day. And sometimes you just can't squeeze therapy into it.
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It's a luxury that we just literally can't afford.
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And then on the, well, on another side of that, another branch of that,
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even if we can afford it, even if we can make time to get to it,
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therapy has the potential, as we saw earlier with the inmates has a potential to reinforce.
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And if not reinforce, it might even introduce a victim mindset to that versus
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a resilience mindset because we're so busy trying to go over these past traumas.
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Well, my daddy didn't love me and my uncle molested me and blah, blah, blah.
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And then we're, we're leaning on that, that victimhood instead of going, yeah, that happened.
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It messed with me but whatever it's done it's done is done I'm moving forward,
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I think therapy has a very real likelihood of introducing that victim mindset
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to people who might not otherwise have it I think you're less likely to find
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some breakthrough in a therapy session I think.
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Regurgitate and relive and analyze the past versus having a breakthrough and
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just being present with your family, with your daily life, being productive
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and being resilient as life requires.
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That's what life requires of us. We have to be resilient.
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So yeah, man, is therapy a luxury just for the upper middle class and the rich?
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Is the only time poor people get therapy? via court order, after the domestic
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violence charge or after the DUI, that's when poor people get therapy.
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Once the judge said you go get therapy or you're going to jail.
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And then you have to make time for that by law. And then when you make time
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for that, then something else is dropping off.
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Past traumas, whatever they are, whether they're physical or emotional or deep,
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deep, deep psychological trauma, or even just superficial sort of perceived
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slights that you've blown out of proportion over time or something.
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We put that stuff aside in order to prioritize being in the present.
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Because if we dwell on them, great, we're dwelling on them. But that don't fix the transmission.
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That don't get the kid to his well baby checkup.
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So we control what we can right now. And we compartmentalize what we can't.
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Accept it for what it is. Or at minimum,
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tolerate it for what it is and you can say yeah we suppress I say compartmentalize
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the rest of it right all the bullcrap we we compartmentalize it not out of denial
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folks not out of denial but out of necessity because a human only has so much bandwidth.
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It's out of necessity. So let's introduce Carl Jung for a moment.
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His concept of the shadow is very interesting to me. It's very interesting.
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And the shadow, everybody has one. It's our unconscious subconscious that parts
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of our personality that houses all the suppressed, repressed,
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compartmentalized, or otherwise rejected aspects of ourselves,
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of our psyche, of our personality.
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To include our primitive base instincts and our negative emotions and our weaknesses
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and vulnerabilities and desires and impulses,
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all that stuff that we don't want to consciously identify with,
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the things that we know are bad, we shove them into that shadow.
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And we call this our dark side, right? That's what people call it these days.
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Is a blind spot for us consciously. It's a cognitive blind spot.
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And it subconsciously influences the way we behave.
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Yeah, subconsciously, right? We don't know that oftentimes we don't know that
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it's having that influence that it's having.
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And it can overwhelm our conscious actions when we're all stressed out or angry
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or indecisive or have some deep angst about something.
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And then on a deeper end of that, that dark side can manifest itself through
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projection onto others, which is very bad, right?
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And it can creep into our sleep even.
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There's different reasons for insomnia, but sometimes you just lay there in
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bed just pondering all the bad stuff in your life. Yeah.
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And it creeps into our sleep. And then we have these, we lay in bed with these
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worrisome thoughts, these negative what-ifs.
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And then we do go to sleep for a few hours. And then we have screwed up, messed up dreams.
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Dreams where we can't control what's going on around us.
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Or where we're helpless to stop something bad from going on.
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Now, I think Jung's philosophy says that we should acknowledge our shadow and
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even use it a little bit to not guide us,
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but use it as it's positively usable, but not to over-identify with it. All right.
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Don't let the darkness overtake you and you just become that.
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That but let it
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integrate into your actions as as fuel
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rather than obstacle right
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as opposed to you know the sitting with a therapist and and going back and forth
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with ultimately what amounts to empty words with an overpaid therapist that
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honestly what i think may be just temporary fixes anyway.
33:19
Now I go even further. I say embrace your dark side, good people. Yeah.
33:26
Intimately, and I mean intimately, and then keep it in its place.
33:32
Yeah, use the aspects of your dark side as needed, where they apply,
33:38
but don't ever, ever let it take control, and the best way to do that is by
33:44
knowing everything about your darkness.
33:48
Yeah, embrace it. Acknowledge it for sure. Do not suppress, meaning that you're
33:56
suppressing it from memory.
33:58
Embrace it. And this brings to mind the concept of we keep our friends close,
34:09
but we keep our enemies closer.
34:11
You can apply that to what I'm trying to say about your dark side.
34:15
Yeah, keep your goodness close. Be good. Make efforts to be good.
34:23
And I said this, I want people to think I'm a good guy.
34:28
Genuinely, I want them to know I'm a good guy. I want to think I'm a good guy.
34:34
And I want to believe that. I want to believe that I'm a good guy.
34:37
So I need to be close to my goodness.
34:42
But for some of us, we know our darkness better than we know our goodness.
34:47
And that's not wrong. It's not bad, in my opinion,
34:50
as long as we don't let the darkness take control as long as we keep it where
34:56
it belongs but the more we know it the more we know when it's creeping in and
35:01
the more we know it and the more intimate we are with it the better we are able
35:05
to control it and take use techniques to mitigate it.
35:13
To you, good people. What if amid all the stress and chaos of life,
35:19
your shadow, your dark side is actually your secret weapon against all those
35:27
inner demons that it houses,
35:31
right? The demons live somewhere.
35:33
They live in that darkness. They live in that shadow.
35:36
So you be in control of that house, right?
35:42
That way the demons can't sneak out on you. You've got control.
35:47
Ultimately, good people, it boils down to this, in my opinion, my uneducated opinion.
35:53
We all got to take charge of our own mental health and our own emotions,
35:57
our emotional maturity, and most certainly our behavior within our own home
36:03
and outside in the public.
36:05
We got to take charge of it. And I tell you this.
36:09
Accountability is not the domain of your therapist. It's yours and yours alone.
36:15
So learn how to prioritize life, emotions, then stack those priorities and resolve to move forward.
36:27
And the things holding you back, the things causing angst, the darkness,
36:32
Hand that stuff off to your shadow.
36:35
Hand it off. Put it away. Put it in the lockbox.
36:40
Be mindful that they're in there. Take a good inventory.
36:44
Know that they exist. And know that they're probably in there plotting. Ha ha ha.
36:51
Take purposeful, deliberate steps just to be better.
36:56
If ex-convicts, you can do it, so can we.
37:00
We do life one day at a time, folks, one experience at a time.
37:05
So use the past pains. We can't completely escape trauma and pain.
37:11
So use them. Use your failures, your past failures, of which I have many,
37:18
multitudes of failures stacked up in my life.
37:21
Use that as fuel to propel
37:25
you forward As opposed to an
37:29
anchor That's just dragging you back Holding you
37:33
stagnant And that's how we turn barely surviving Into thriving in our daily
37:40
lives And we do it on our own terms Not a therapist Making us move our eyes
37:47
Side to side and whatnot And breathing.
37:52
Ponder these things folks this is what i
37:55
had on my mind this is what i wanted to share that
37:58
article though short was fairly compelling to
38:02
me i have no scientific study to back
38:04
up anything that i've just said again it's
38:09
simply from the the mind of edgar mills
38:12
based on my life experiences these are
38:15
the things that i see and the way that i
38:18
see them so yes i
38:22
decided to share it i welcome your feedback
38:25
good people i imagine a few of you out there vehemently disagree with everything
38:31
i've just said i'm happy to hear it i want to hear it so do comment and please
38:38
follow like share do a review of the show on whatever platform you're listening on.
38:47
Professional, school me up. Yeah, school me up. I welcome it. All right, good people.
38:55
Twoteamguys.com. We have a three-day land navigation course,
38:58
five through seven December. We got space for two more humans on that.
39:02
Please sign up for it. It's a good, it's an excellent in-depth learning experience.
39:09
And the actual exercise itself is going to be eye-opener and very rewarding.
39:14
I guarantee it. And then we have the Baby It's Cold Outside match on 20 December.
39:20
You can get on that. You can find that via ospreyshootingsolutions.com.
39:25
And then as always, folks, help a homie.
39:28
I plan to do help a homie indefinitely.
39:32
My longer term plans for that is to make it into a non-profit organization and
39:39
a legitimate non-profit where all the proceeds go to the people who need it,
39:48
not to pay an exorbitant salary to the program director or pay a lease on some
39:55
elaborate swanky office.
39:59
Yeah. Integrity above, above board.
40:03
So that, that's, that's going to happen. It's getting a slow start folks.
40:08
It's getting a slow start, but I think it's going to be a good thing.
40:12
So if you feel so compelled, go to givesendgo.com backslash help a homie fund.
40:20
Other than that, folks, thank you so much for listening. I appreciate it.
40:25
This has been the redux of episode 34.
40:29
I hope this one comes out way better and I hope you get something out of it.
40:35
I appreciate you guys and I love you guys.