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Who Gets to Tell the Story? with Jean Parker · The Blind Chick

• Penn (00:00.418) Hello everybody and welcome back to the blind chick. That's Moses Street. Moses (00:06.142) And that is my personal hero, Penn Street. Penn (00:15.854) That I think is reaching. I think you need to aim higher there. Our guest today, Jean Parker. I can't wait for her to share her stories. Welcome, Jean, to, actually I should say welcome back to The Blind Check. Jean (00:39.544) Yes, it is a welcome back, isn't it? Penn (00:43.306) Yes. So I know you went that evening when we sat up talking, which was lovely because we actually figured out we actually knew some of the same people. It just shows what a small world it is. but tell us how you got into journalism is is I don't think that there are a lot of blind people in journalism. And this is actually dear to my heart because as a kid, little, little, little kid, people would ask me, what are you going to be when you grow up? And I said, I'm going to be a journalist. And clear through high school, that's what I was going to do. That's what I was going to be. then life happens. And I did end up in college and university. And I did write quite a bit. But I never quite made it to maybe the stereotype of what a journalist is. So when I met you, I was like, ah, here's somebody who did that. I've got to get to know her better. So did you always want to be a journalist? Or is it something that you sort of just happened to be? Jean (02:02.222) No, it happened by accident and it's kind of funny. first of all, there actually are quite a few blind journalists and some of them work in print. There are some who are working on TV that I know and then there are some on radio and they're in all aspects of journalism as well. They do sound production, they do editing, they do direct reporting and so forth. Yeah, there are quite a few. There is the division of the National Federation of the Blind that is an organization of blind journalists. But you're right. There are a lot of aspirational journalists. think especially among blind people, everybody wanted to be on the radio. When I was growing up, a lot of people wanted to be on the radio. And so when I say that it was by accident, I almost feel guilty about it because I didn't really try to do it. then you have all these people who did and weren't able to, or they were able to, and all of that. And I became involved with an organization called Radio for Peace International in Costa Rica. And it was a shortwave station. And at that time, there were a lot of stations on shortwave that are no longer in existence now. And Radio for Peace is one of those. And so I started out producing a program called Disability Radio Worldwide, where I would interview all these different people with disabilities about their lives and what it was like in their country for people with various disabilities and so forth. And Then I wanted to move beyond that into doing more political reporting. so I went from that into doing, I did some live talk radio. I didn't really like that especially, but then I started to get into more long form documentaries. I relocated to India in the midst of all of that. Jean (04:27.918) And for about five years, I did the news from South Asia for NPR. Oh, wow. so I did the headlines, the 45 second headlines. But then I also did documentaries for some of the weekend programs and then for other networks, some networks in Europe, Canada, and then some in India itself. So a lot of those stories were from India, but they were also from other parts of Asia, a little bit in the Middle East and Southern Africa, where I did stories. And so I did that for 10 years. Penn (05:14.104) Were they stories like on location stories or? Jean (05:18.58) Yes, they were. So at that time, there were lots of issues around land grabs. So I covered social development and human rights. wow. That was really where my interest was. And that's what I knew. Right. And so, so yes, I did a lot of on location production. I almost never had an engineer or a producer working with me. So I had to do all of the production myself, all of the, I didn't have anyone setting my levels, let's say. Penn (05:57.14) goodness how did you teach yourself how to do that because and and something Jean (06:01.802) And bye screw it. Jean (06:06.238) Yeah. Yeah, that's often the best way to learn something. Yeah. Is a lot of practice and experimenting and experimenting in the moment, you could say, because of course, it's always when you need things to go right that they won't. yeah. So, it's good to set up scenarios. so that you're doing this while you're distracted by other things that are going on in the place where you're doing recording. And there can be many things going on. yeah, so, yeah, it was a lot of practice, but I got the hang of it. And so I could manage all the cables, all the equipment. ask the questions, do the logistics, all of that quite well. Penn (07:11.246) And so you said this was a field that that you knew and that you were interested in. Where where did that where did that come from? Jean (07:20.59) So earlier in my career, I was a human service provider and I really thought that if I could help people, it would change the world and all of this. I quickly learned that was not the case. And so I then became interested in systems change. How do we change systems? So, and I was an activist and I ran a nonprofit. I did a lot of activity in systems, society change, social change, you could say. so that's what I was interested in. this, so I was able to report on it through stories of people's situations. For NPR for the headlines, I did do a lot of political reporting and it was a lot about diplomacy, who's talking to this one, who's talking to that one. What are they saying? What are decisions that are made? It was a bit different that way. But I also got my human rights stories in too. So it was a bit of both. Moses (08:30.99) I would think that would put you in some dangerous situation. Jean (08:36.494) There were some dicey situations along the way, But you have to kind of anticipate everything that can go wrong and also anticipate that what you planned for is probably not the thing that's going to happen. So there were some situations that I would rather have not. found myself in, but I'm here to talk about them, so they must have resolved, right? Penn (09:11.263) Right. So what were some of the, like some of the stories that really stood out for you? Jean (09:19.34) think one of them was a story I did in South Africa. was a series actually on land reform. at that time, This was, let's see, this would have been about 10 to 12 years or so after the change in South Africa. So after Nelson Mandela took office as president, and there was so much hope at that time that things would really change in South Africa. And so one of the things that was going on was a redistribution of land to people who hadn't had any land or had any assets at all. those stories really stick out to me as ones where the stories, what they said was really compelling. And I think I was able to make a series of long-form documentaries on various aspects of this because it wasn't going to plan. Penn (10:30.35) And what were those problems? it government or was it like, why wasn't it going as planned? Jean (10:38.336) So one thing that was happening was that people were getting land and they were getting assets in terms of agriculture, but they weren't getting the training they needed to be successful. So it was kind of a setup really where, okay, yeah, we redistributed this land, but we didn't give the people the things they needed to be successful farmers or successful agricultural producers. Penn (11:13.624) So basically setting them up to fail. Like, is that what the... Jean (11:17.782) Right. Yeah. So the government policies were, they looked good on paper, as many policies do. But then the way they were being implemented was that people were not getting what they needed to use that land successfully. Penn (11:42.156) And so your story is exposing that. Jean (11:46.242) Yes, yes they did. And also people's stories of how they had come to this place coming out of apartheid, South Africa, now still being in informal settlements and still living in very poor communities and not getting what they thought they would get from the new government. So, By that time, there was a lot going on with HIV. And one thing I'll never forget is this. There were older people and then there were kids in these communities that I visited, these settlements that I visited. But there was this whole generation that was missing. So there had been so much AIDS and so much HIV and so little treatment. Remember the South African government did not do what it needed to do to get people treatment. And so it was a huge factor in how these communities were operating. Penn (12:59.32) Did your, do you feel that your journalism changed any of that or helped educate? No. Moses (13:12.175) Just let people know that it was happening. Jean (13:14.818) Yeah, whoever listened to it came to know what was happening. But no, I lost that. I don't know if you want to say optimism about the role of journalism. know, there's this thing that people say often that, if you tell me your story, the world will find out and things will change. That usually isn't the case. Moses (13:40.622) Rape. Now... Jean (13:45.29) maybe in very extraordinary circumstances, like photographs that are taken usually of children and of great suffering. Sometimes those can become iconic representations of someone's experience. And there are a few of those. There are some of those around. And maybe eventually something changes because they symbolize something that's gone wrong in society. But by and large, no, I don't feel like that was the case. It's one of the reasons I'm not a journalist anymore. Penn (14:23.022) That's where I was maybe going with my question is I remember when journalism was a respected field and what you read was true, right? Like I remember my parents reading the newspaper or you would hear the news at night and it was truth. Now, it is very difficult for me to hear a story and believe it. And do you think that that is part of what is going on? Like even in your situation, you're covering these horrific things that are going on that should have brought about change, right? like it should have brought about change, it didn't. Do you think it's because people aren't believing what they're reading and what they're seeing anymore? Jean (15:33.24) think that's more the case now than it was then. think the journalism in general has had a real downfall in the past 20 years or so, maybe even maybe 15 years, I guess. And yeah, you're right. We would watch the nightly news and we had trust that what we were being told was correct. And in hindsight, it may have been correct, but it was also incomplete. Moses (16:00.748) Yes it is that. Jean (16:01.858) So if you think back about what we heard on the evening news, okay, that's fine, but women were not represented very well. People of color were not represented and certainly people with disabilities were not represented on those newscasts. So they told one version of a story, but not the whole story. One of the things that has contributed to the, I hate to say demise, but really I don't know what else to, what other word to use. The demise of modern journalism is who owns these outlets. Penn (16:46.904) Right. Jean (16:48.504) So you look at what's happened now to the Washington Post. Moses (16:51.702) Yeah, it's been destroyed. Jean (16:55.032) And that's the daily newspaper in the capital of this country. Why is this allowed to happen? It's allowed to happen because someone owns that paper who has other priorities and maybe has some things to hide. And so whoever owns a newspaper, if the paper output from that newsroom is incompatible with Moses (16:59.533) That's right. Penn (17:12.77) Yeah. Jean (17:24.321) that person's goals, then they're going to destroy that newsroom. Penn (17:30.474) And even just how journalism's are treated around, not just the United States, but around the world. And I know there have been situations where it was dangerous to be a journalist, but there was also a sense of respect. But now I feel like it's, like you almost have a target on your back if you're a journalist. Jean (17:54.978) You do. It's almost, yeah. So it's more so now than I think ever before dangerous to be a journalist. And also dangerous to be a medical provider in a lot of places. There just doesn't seem to be a boundary anymore. It used to be hands off journalists and hands off of medical providers. anymore. Yeah, there was this understanding. Penn (18:19.736) Right, right. Jean (18:24.45) You don't touch those people. That is not the case anymore. Penn (18:28.162) Right, right, right. So would you... go into that field now. Jean (18:37.142) No. No. Not at all. Because what I notice is that, and what I hear from people who are still in journalism is the censorship. And it isn't just censorship in that some editor said, we can't allow this to go on the air. We need to change this and that. I mean, that was the case when I was working as a journalist too. I was censored. Penn (19:05.838) Yeah. Jean (19:06.392) I think everybody was at some point, right? But now it's, we're not gonna just censor words that you say, we're going to censor you. Moses (19:21.004) Right, right. Yeah, that's starting to get really obvious. Jean (19:27.426) Yeah, and so the ability to tell the truth about something is diminishing every day. Moses (19:36.078) When I was young, every small town had a newspaper. Almost no, it didn't matter how. Jean (19:44.152) That's another thing is consolidation. Yeah, the closing of local newsrooms is a big factor in why there isn't the quality of journalism because the resources have been consolidated and taken away from local newsrooms. Penn (20:02.732) Yeah, and after site, is, which is the umbrella that, you know, the reason that we have the blind chick, that's, that's what we do. We provide audio auditions of Colorado's newspapers, magazines that are not in a format for people who are blind and low vision of access to. And we are constantly struggling to find local news. And we were running into every single newspaper, regardless if it was the little Prairie Times out in the middle, nowhere, or the Denver Post, right? Which is our biggest paper in Colorado. It didn't matter. They all had the same news articles. And so we... Jean (20:53.484) Yeah, they're just pulling them off the wire service. Penn (20:55.646) Exactly. it's we we are trying to get as creative as we can and, you know, reaching out to, you know, some of those very localized journalists and trying to get local news because that's what people want to hear. And it is difficult. Jean (21:18.446) It's really difficult now. Well, there are places where there's a news desert. It's just not there. No one's reporting it. And when news is not being reported, things tend to happen in local government and business that are not compatible with democracy. or even with what people have said that they want. know, things happen that are not in alignment with what communities say they want or need. Moses (21:48.642) Yes. Penn (21:57.912) So do you have any hope? Do you think there are any solutions? I mean, it's, and I know that this has been building. Jean (22:00.674) Me. Jean (22:09.356) Yeah, I do. I'll tell you, so here in Tucson, there's been a big closure of local news here. It all got consolidated. It all got corporatized and all of that. But there are now at least four nonprofit newsrooms operating here. there might be more. know of four. It's possible that there are even more now. And a lot of these are people who were working for the main newspaper and got laid off. And so they said, well, we want to continue. We want to continue our work. And so they have formed nonprofit organizations and they report local news. They go to the school board meetings. They go to the city council. Yeah. Penn (23:08.022) And how do you access that news as a blind or somebody who's low vision? Like, how do you get access to the info? Jean (23:14.946) Yeah. So they send out daily newsletters of their stories for that day. Yeah. And then you can subscribe. So it is all online. So they don't have printing costs and all of that. Yeah. They have to keep their costs down. So they're all online. But yeah, they do a wonderful job. Now they're not able to cover everything. Their resources are limited. Penn (23:43.713) Right, right. Jean (23:44.726) and all of that, but they are able to cover a lot. Penn (23:48.728) Are you seeing more of that happening around Arizona? Jean (23:54.06) I think there is. I'll be really interested to see what happens with the Washington Post to see if those journalists who are being laid off actually start nonprofit newsrooms. Penn (24:06.956) Yeah, we hope so. Please do. Jean (24:09.238) Sometimes they start out doing blogs and they do that and then they say, wait a minute, there's a whole bunch of people doing blogs here. Let's combine our talents and skills and put together a local newsroom. Penn (24:26.7) And that did happen in Colorado when the Denver Post got bought out. was mostly journalists that got laid off and they started the Sunriser and we, they provide a subscription for AfterSight to read, for our volunteers to read their stories and their amazing stories. have... They have written stories that no other newspapers will touch because they're too controversial. Which is actually how we got involved with them because it was a story that pertained to the blind and low vision community of Colorado and that's how we got involved with them. And even in our little town, Estes Park, Colorado, that newspaper that had been there forever got bought out and a bunch of the journalists got laid off. And Chris Hazelton, I know you're a fan of the podcast. Those journalists got together and started the Estes Park News. And that's all they do. They do local news. gosh, Moses, they've been going now, what, 15, at least 15 years, maybe longer, I Easily. So I do think that Like the Sunriser is all digital, right? It's all online, which in some aspects is great because it does make it accessible to most people. The Estes Park News, actually do put out an old fashioned paper because they have the resources to do that. They are digital as well, but I'm really hoping that they are able to do that. Jean (26:18.338) think that's where the hope is. I really do. And you find some fantastic reporting in these things, in these local newsrooms. So it's almost like it's come full circle now. The key to it though is to make sure that these journalists have the resources they need to do this work sustainably. That's going to be the question in all of this. is making it sustainable and making it so that they can stay independent and tell the truth. Moses (26:57.036) Right. Penn (26:58.008) So when you say resources, is that financial resources? Jean (27:03.062) It's financial resources, it's also access to people. Access, Yeah, the ability to investigate. getting what they need in order to investigate things. Moses (27:19.776) And it takes a lot of reporters to cover the news. Jean (27:25.942) It does. Yeah, it does. I mean, they'll be the first to tell you that we cover as much as we can, but there's so much that we're not able to cover. Moses (27:39.564) Yeah, I could imagine. Jean (27:40.878) that we really need to be covering. so all of that takes money. it also takes a belief that this newsroom is ethical. The people who are reporting these stories are telling the truth. They're ethical people. so that again goes back to where we started this whole conversation about Penn (27:44.813) Absolutely. Jean (28:10.508) listening to the nightly news and were we being told the truth? Well, kind of. Moses (28:19.724) Yes. Penn (28:20.737) Yeah. Jean (28:21.966) But an incomplete story isn't necessarily a truthful story. Penn (28:26.86) That's that. Absolutely. Absolutely. So do you would you tell the generations that are coming up that do have that still want to be journalists that they should still go into journalism? Jean (28:46.232) Yeah, I mean, just because I wouldn't do it anymore doesn't mean somebody else shouldn't. what we need, whenever a field or something is really under siege like this, what we need is people in there, we need people in there who are really committed to good journalism and doing it right and speaking up when they feel like they're being censored or that they're not being allowed to cover important stories. And so more than ever, we need good people in journalism, just like we need good people in teaching. Penn (29:34.087) Absolutely. Absolutely. Jean (29:36.546) Just like we need good librarians. We need good librarians who are going to speak up publicly when the libraries are being censored. Penn (29:38.926) absolutely Moses (29:47.244) Yes. Penn (29:49.122) That's true. Or even people who are on city council that they're trying to shut up because people are disagreeing with them because they're bringing up Moses (30:01.704) And it's also as a major positive is it's really exciting. Like if you're young and you get into the news world, because that had a lot to do when I started doing photography back in AD, it opens up a world like you meet all your town leaders. You're at these events. and statewide, you're meeting the people and hearing firsthand. It's an exciting, exciting job. Jean (30:42.892) Yeah, it's really important to look at something and tell stories that communicate important ideas of important events, important trends to readers and listeners. Moses (30:58.434) Yes. Penn (31:02.732) Yeah, because you're getting it firsthand, right? Like you're experiencing the news as it's happening. I can't imagine anything being more exciting, you know? Because you're seeing truth happen right in front of your eyes. Moses (31:12.898) Yeah. Jean (31:20.812) Yeah, although there is also this idea of facets in news, in experiences. And so I would never say that I told a complete story because there so many angles on the same story. How did kids experience this? Right. How did older people experience this? Right. So I had the opportunity Penn (31:36.514) Really? Jean (31:50.734) to cover disasters a lot when I was a journalist. what that led me to was that I said, if I ever had a chance to go back to school, I wanted to find out how disaster relief could be made more equitable through tools like community radio and education tools. And I was able to do that. you And so one of the things that became clear when I was researching my dissertation was that the same event that took place was experienced so differently by individuals, but also different groups of people. And so therefore, the responses to it needed to consider who is making the decisions, who's giving input to this, who's at the table and who's not, and why not? Why are they not at the table? Do we even notice? Moses (33:06.382) Yeah, I can see that because like in the first Death of this Park flood, there was a million different views on what happened. some people were really positive, other people were really negative. It would be interesting since you were covering disasters because some of the stories behind it, like I was photographing off and on in the Capitol building in Denver. And I was doing the PR for a guy who was running for lieutenant governor. And so he said, I want this shot with this famous national senator. And so I got that photo and it looked it was perfect. Like they were really getting along. These look that way. Well, the very next day, I have no idea how they found me, but I got a call that said, you lose that photo or you will go to court and you will never work in this town again. And so they said, shut it down because that guy's a crook and I don't want anything to do with it. Penn (34:26.432) And the photo made it look like Moses (34:28.088) Yeah, like they were along. That's why I was just a kid and I didn't realize, you know, that I was manipulate. I was helping a crook get what he needed. Penn (34:31.349) in a Jean (34:41.014) Yeah, and it makes a difference who is telling the story. That's one of the reasons I really liked doing long form interviews. Because it got to the point where I just said, you know what, I'm not in a position to, nor do I want to be in a position to make the decision about what your truth is by putting some things on the air and then other things not on the air. I don't want to do that anymore. And so what I would say to people is this is your story. I would like you to tell your story and I will facilitate getting it on the air as best as within the constraints that I'm operating in, which is Penn (35:16.535) Yeah. Jean (35:39.928) kind of taking some choices away from them. But then there are realities. You've got time limits. You've got limits of what's the story about. You don't want something that's rambling. And I really tried to edit in a way that hopefully communicated their story accurately the way they were giving it to me because there were so many angles on things. Penn (36:02.445) Yeah. Penn (36:08.236) Right. I've personally been interviewed by a number of journalists, either print or news, film, that kind of thing. And it always surprises me what the story is when it actually does come out. sometimes it's a nice surprise. Like, that's not quite what I meant. like that but then other times I'm like that is not what Jean (36:41.934) Right. Yeah, and think we've all had that happen, right? As blind people, we've all had that happen where somebody wants to do a story and, my God, then it goes to the editor and they do something cutesy and it always has to have a happy ending too. are lots of stories that don't have happy endings and those need to be told too. Penn (36:53.453) Yeah. Penn (37:02.168) Yeah. Yeah. Penn (37:11.978) Yeah. And I think that's why podcasting has gotten so popular is that, I mean, yes, I guess people could, you know, really edit a podcast interview. So it made it sound different than the actual person. But the reason we started the blind chick is we wanted to give a platform. Jean (37:12.046) in a truthful way. Penn (37:39.806) that people who are blind and low vision could share their stories. Or if they had a book coming out or an album coming out or whatever it was, they had a platform. And our podcast producer and editor, yes, he takes out flubs or somebody comes back and go, my gosh, I told that joke about my Aunt Mary. Now that I think about it, I think you should edit that out. You know, little things, but for the most part, it is genuinely the entire body of the interview. And at least I can say that about The Blind Chick and the other podcasts that Aftertonight produces. But I'm wondering if that, because it is kind of shocking to me how podcasts blew up. And there are journalistic podcasts out there. There's a lot of them. And I'm wondering if that's not why, because you were talking about that long story, that long interview where people could share more details. Do you have any sort of feedback on that? Jean (39:01.612) So podcasts, really any journalism requires critical thinking on the part of the listener or the viewer or the reader of that piece, whether it's a public interest piece or a political piece or someone's interview. The thing that we haven't spoken about yet with regard to this is that people really do have a responsibility if they're going to look to news to help them make decisions or to provide them with information to vote for certain candidates or make a decision about referendums or something. Or even to make decisions about lifestyle choices or something. They really do have an obligation, a responsibility to acquire what we call media literacy. And that is to be able to understand and critically analyze something that they hear or read about in a way that reveals its truth, its accuracy. Where is it falling short? What are the aspects of this that leave me with more questions than answers? And there's a whole piece of learning that's critical thinking, critical analysis. Penn (40:41.869) Yeah. Jean (40:43.394) And it's good to approach things with a healthy bit of skepticism. It doesn't mean that you're suspicious of something, but it does mean that you want clarification. You want to be able to come to it with a critical eye or a critical ear in order to analyze something, a piece of information that you get. Penn (41:13.026) Yeah. Jean (41:13.698) And that's, I think it's increasingly difficult to do, but it's also increasingly necessary to do. Penn (41:21.39) I agree. And we talk about that here on the blind chick because I've had a couple of interviews where I really had to bite my tongue because I completely disagreed with what the person I was interviewing had to say. But what they were saying needed to be said because just because I didn't agree with them did not mean that it's not something that should have been shared. And so we as a team had to make the decision, is this something we were going to air? And we did make the decision that, yes, we'll go ahead and air it. But even there are guests sometimes where I would like to dig a little deeper, or I want to say, can you clarify that? Or they'll say something that I feel maybe is not completely truth, and I would like them, well, did you get that information? Or where is that information coming from? And there is sort of this... disconnect with entertainment versus truth versus what needs to be out there. And I know personally, I really struggle with that because I want people to come on the blind chick and be able to share what they want to share. But sometimes it's, I question it. But am I the person that should be questioning it, you know? Jean (43:21.068) yeah. Yeah. yeah. And it's a difficult question because you're right. There is this idea, this continuum of entertainment, education, journalism that you're doing that is, there are some best practices, but it's also something that is, no one's going to really hold you accountable for whatever you decide to do on that, you know? So it's not like there's a whole editorial team that this goes through, which is why we do it, because we don't really want an editorial team to tell us what we and can't say. So we kind of designed it that way. But then I think that if something is really off base, Moses (44:07.789) Ha Jean (44:20.236) you do have a responsibility to question it in the interview and at least ask for clarification, but at the very least to offer a counterpoint to it or something to let the audience know that, wait a minute, something is inconsistent here. So, and I think it's difficult to know when Penn (44:43.596) Yeah. Jean (44:48.502) that responsibility is yours. It's hard to know. It really is. If you don't have a handbook of standards or a manual to go by, know, an ethics manual. And there are some out there. I'm sure you can find plenty of ethics manuals for podcasting and so forth. But it is a tricky area. Penn (45:16.972) Yeah, because it's and I I listen to a lot of podcasts, all different kinds of podcasts, because I am curious what what other people are doing. And some of them how people. Yeah, it's some of them don't have any ethics. It's just. Jean (45:29.336) Deaf. Jean (45:37.23) Yeah, there are of podcasts. It's like the Wild West, right? are plenty of podcasts where there's no ethical standards at all. And then you have to kind of take that into consideration. What seems to be the case too, though, is that there are a lot of podcasts where everything that the guest says, the interviewer agrees with them. And so you already know that there's there are biases in who is being selected to be on this podcast. Moses (46:13.004) Yeah, that took a point. Penn (46:14.158) Yes, that is interesting. Jean (46:17.388) Back to the origin. Penn (46:19.55) Yeah, exactly. Jean (46:20.908) origin story of the podcast. so there are podcasts that are better, some are better than others at striking that balance of telling a good story, but also coming at it with critical analysis and some kind of meaningful analysis about what this really is and asking difficult questions. Penn (46:48.876) Yeah, and I do have to say, Jane, you, this interview is probably the only interview that I feel like it made me think, you know, because usually it's, you know, somebody comes on and they have a topic that they want to talk about. we, Moses and I, you know, we let them tell their story, which we hope we allowed you to talk about journalism. But we've never had a guest sort of talk about ethics and talk about how things are done. Yeah, I've never thought this much on a podcast before. And I appreciate that. Sorry. No, it is not. It's why I really wanted to have you on. And it's because of that. Jean (47:48.938) There are lot of other things I can... Penn (47:50.318) I know, I I feel like we have just touched. Jean (47:53.934) I mean, this was only one aspect of my life and career. So there are other things we could discuss. Penn (48:00.206) Absolutely, but it was and I think it is because of the times we're in right now, especially with journalism, that I really wanted to touch on this topic with you because of when we sat up that night on the balcony and had those chats in Austin that I wanted to dive into those deeper and learn more about that part of your life. And I appreciate you. sharing it with us. And I do hope that we maybe have inspired some young people out there that are thinking about getting into journalism because of your honesty that they will do it and maybe do it more ethically. I don't know. Jean (48:53.144) You know, I think that right now there are, if we look beyond the problems with mainstream newsrooms and corporatized newsrooms and everything that has happened to local news and everything, there are more opportunities now than ever to succeed in a career as a journalist. simply because there are, there is so much more now in terms of media. You know, there's podcasts, there's video, there's blogging, there's, and some blogs are very good and are paying gigs. know, this is not what it used to be. It's not like somebody gets up and writes down their thoughts and posts it in a blog. Penn (49:53.11) Yeah. Jean (49:54.296) That's not it at all anymore. And so whereas what we used to consider the trusted sources are really diminishing, the mainline news sources, other things are taking their place. Moses (50:15.308) That is true, because even on social media, I've been searching, or not just what I believe should be on the news. And that would, because anybody can be on the internet and that type of thing, I agree with you that it could come back. more honest, more independent, and more widespread. Jean (50:48.834) Yeah, there's an upheaval right now for sure. But I think that emerging out of that is actually a type of journalism that is much more inclusive, is much more truthful because it's inclusive. Yes. It's much more Moses (51:07.234) Yes. Jean (51:16.386) honest about what's happening and, but it requires people to think. Moses (51:22.546) Right. Jean (51:24.206) It really does. So that also is an opportunity. It is not really possible to function constructively in today's world without thinking, without analyzing, without asking difficult questions about what you consume from the media. Moses (51:51.726) And well, like one other example, and then we can wrap it, but is that when in the context today, everybody says, well, can you fact check that? Well, when I was around the media, fact checking meant contacting the people who were in the story. and say, you stand by what this says or do you stand by that you were telling the truth? It was fact checking with the person, the source, the event, where now it's a standard technique. If you say anything that could be controversial on social media, somebody's gonna come back and go, prove it, fact check it. Well, I'm not in his room. Jean (52:55.726) Right. Yeah, you didn't say that you were a newsroom. So fact checking is a whole other thing. It's hard. It is. And it's, I mean, so are you fact checking what some politicians said last night on the news and got printed in today's paper? Are you fact checking what they said? Are you fact checking something in history? Moses (53:02.862) Yeah, it's hot. Jean (53:23.938) What is it that you're fact checking exactly? You know, it's, are you trying to get to the bottom of a statistic that someone quoted? And remember that history is written by the victor. Penn (53:27.32) That's a good point. Moses (53:33.804) Right. That's right. Penn (53:41.09) That is true. Moses (53:41.972) For sure. Yeah. Jean (53:45.442) That's the published history. And one of the things that has happened is, of course, we now have access to stories and experiences from those who were not in charge during particular historic events. Moses (54:00.194) Right. Penn (54:00.758) Yeah, so you're talking about earlier, like all different aspects, like, like a story is taking place and unfolding right now. And you are getting all different aspects from different point of view. Moses (54:11.426) That would be... Cause... Jean (54:14.094) Well, even history, there's a lot of research that has been done by women historians and historians of various groups from various countries, from religious groups who can tell the same historical events from the perspective of people who were there. who were not the winner of that war or who lost their land and what that was like. So our understanding of history is still very... I think by the context of the storyteller. Penn (55:07.778) Yes. Jean (55:09.078) It's like in Hamilton, who writes your narrative? Who writes the story? Because it matters who's writing it. Penn (55:17.902) Absolutely. Moses (55:18.99) That's right. I can't think of the writer's name, but People's History of America. Totally different than normal history. Jean (55:29.408) Totally different, but that also didn't include everyone. Moses (55:35.97) No, he did not. He did not. Nope. Yeah. Yeah. Jean (55:40.886) So that's provisional. Howard Zinn had his angles and okay, but there were also exclusions there. Moses (55:53.87) Yes. Oh, and one last one. Documentary is another exciting way, whether you're doing it audio or we were around a lot of documentary filmmakers. And it was exciting. one person, to keep it really short, it was about when they were cutting down all the redwood trees and the woman who organized the protest and stuff on that. a bomb went off in her car and she was killed. And so the guy who made the movie, we got to know really well, and we've even got a copy of the movie. But he said that it was the FBI that killed her. And he had all of his proof in there, plus all the proof of the abuses and stuff of the protesters. It was 20 years later. that the mainstream media came out and finally said, yes, the FBI did kill her because the original story before that was that she was a terrorist and a bomb that she was gonna kill somebody with went off in her car before she could kill somebody. Jean (57:12.226) That was always the story. That was always the narrative. When somebody, when there's a documentary, the first thing I ask is who paid for it? It's just like a research study. Who paid for it? And that will tell a lot about the angle that it takes, about the filters that are applied. So it's complicated, isn't it? Moses (57:23.116) Yes! Moses (57:39.566) That's true. Okay, we've got to another podcast. Penn (57:42.318) Gene you just keep making us think. Jean (57:47.149) Yeah. Moses (57:48.334) I'm getting an Advil after this. Penn (57:51.886) I know. We would love to know what people think out there. We'd like to know what you think. If you have any questions for Gene, you can email them to me and we will make sure that Gene gets those and has an opportunity to answer. It's at feedback at aftersite.org and we'd love to hear from you. Thanks for dropping in week after week and... Remember to be kind to yourselves this week and find a way to be kind to somebody else. It's good for your soul.