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Knitting as a wellness tool with Lauren Brennan of Project Knitwell · Why I Knit

0:03
Mia Hobbs: Hello, and welcome to the Why I Knitt podcast. My name
0:06
is Dr. Mia Hobbs and I'm a clinical psychologist who's
0:08
passionate about knitting and its benefits for our mental well
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being. Each week I interview a different knitter about why they
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knit and how it benefits their mental health. This week on the
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podcast, I'm talking to Lauren Brennan, who is the managing
0:20
director of Project Knitwell, you can find links to Project
0:24
Knitwell, and any of the yarns and patterns that Lauren and I
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discuss in the show notes. Hi, Lauren, welcome to the podcast.
0:33
Lauren Brennan: Hi, thanks so much for having me. Mia, I
0:36
appreciate the opportunity to talk about knitting for
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wellness.
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Mia Hobbs: Thank you for joining me. So I always start by asking
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how your story with knitting began.
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Lauren Brennan: You know, I feel like my story isn't terribly
0:48
unique. I was taught to knit in the fourth grade by my
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grandmother,
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Mia Hobbs: and how old is fourth grade for those of us who don't.
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Lauren Brennan: I was just just about less. Um just about nine.
1:01
Almost ten. Okay. Yeah, so pretty young. And I was very
1:05
good with my hands and my grandmother recognised that I
1:08
really enjoyed working with my hands. The unusual part of my
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story is that the time that she taught me, she was going through
1:18
experimental treatment for an aggressive kidney cancer. And
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she was really in a time of stress for her, I think it was
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an opportunity for her to pass down a long standing tradition.
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Many, many families have grandmothers and mothers who
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knits but I think it was a wellness tool for her in that
1:41
moment. And she recognised that she could teach me that wellness
1:45
tool and really share a lifelong tool with me. I still have
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actually, I keep it here on my desk, the original project on
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the needles that we shared together. Yeah. And it's you
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know, it has all these bits and bobbles and all of these little,
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you know, little squirrely bits. But yeah, she was very patient
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with me. And you can see where she worked with me at the
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beginning and it gets wider and wider. Somehow I was
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Mia Hobbs: very often find that with people I've taught, I think
2:17
it's sometimes when you the yarn gets flipped over the back and
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you turn the first stitch on the needle into two stitches, I
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think,
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Lauren Brennan: right? There's no, yeah, the increases on the
2:29
edge are really, you know, I was I was letting it grow. And I
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didn't even know that that was what I was up to. I always I
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always tell people that I teach to knit that, every mistake is
2:41
actually a technique. And so really, you know, I was going
2:44
for a crescent. Right. I was, yeah.
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Mia Hobbs: Amazing. So amazing. You still have it. I think that
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thats quite rare,
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Lauren Brennan: my mom found it in an old trunk not too long
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ago. And I can't even believe that it's on the same needles
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that my grandmother shared. And I should have it framed, you
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know, I should frame it or something. But yeah, I like to
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hold on to it every once in a while. And I put it up on my
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bulletin board.
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Mia Hobbs: So Oh, that's amazing. Thank you for sharing
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that. So that you've still got your first ever project that you
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did with your grandma. Yeah. And did you keep knitting straight
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away? Or was there a time where you didn't knit?
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Lauren Brennan: I did I knit for quite a while I did some finger
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knitting. I did a lot of weaving looms, you know, tiny little
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loom work. I, my walls in my childhood bedroom were covered
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in little projects that I'd made. They still are covered in
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some of them, actually, really, which my parents are, are good
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at preserving our childhood memories. I think I'm saying but
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I think that I had a long gap between probably, you know, late
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middle school into college. And when I went to college, a friend
4:00
of mine was studying in Ireland, actually. And I went to visit
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her and we were on a local bus. She was studying there. So we
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were, you know, we were not quite tourists. But we met these
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old women that were knitting. And they said here, here, take
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this wool that here take this wool and knit with us. And they
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were insistent that we knit and you know, I had not knit in
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years, but I remembered the pattern and I remembered how to
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knit just riding a bike. Yeah. And I was kind of amazed to that
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that was possible that I could just pick it right back up.
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Yeah. At the next bus stop. They literally almost dragged us to a
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yarn shop and I bought a bunch of Irish wool. That was
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beautiful. I still have it. And I I spent a lot of the rest of
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the trip knitting, you know, basic garter stitch. That was
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sort of my my flashback to knitting was not very advanced.
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I never really had had much advanced knitting at that point.
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But but those repetitive stitches, that's the value to
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me.
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Mia Hobbs: Yeah, that's amazing, amazing story. And I'm sure they
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probably have no idea how significant that was and what
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you've ended up doing now?
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Lauren Brennan: Yes, I wish I could go back in a time machine
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and talk to them again and find out what their story was. And
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they were very interesting ladies that they were even
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interested in talking to us was was a joy. Really? Yeah.
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Mia Hobbs: And that, you know, you already had you already knew
5:31
how to knit did they know that?
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Lauren Brennan: Yeah. Well, it was funny. I said, Oh, I used to
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knit you know, so I had shared that, but it had been many, many
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years. But I was always pretty pretty. My hands are really, I
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think, engaged with a certain part of my brain. So I think I
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was always pretty handy. And some, you know, I think knitting
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is not for everyone, but some people are really driven by
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handwork. And I think that that ignites a certain part of our
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brains. And, you know, really, scientifically, it's proven to
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be a really great tool for a lot of people to, to regulate their,
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your hands, actually, there's a book by Frank Wilson, called The
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Hand, and it talks about how your hand is connected to 60% of
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your brain activity, which if you think about the the, the
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activity that goes on in your brain, I mean, 60% is pretty
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significant. So if you're able to ignite that much of your
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brain with bilateral knitting movements, you're really able to
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bring yourself out of pain responses, you're able to bring
6:38
yourself down and regulate all of the neurotransmitters that
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are igniting in us every day, and some are good and some are
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bad. So I'm excited that I, whenever I can teach someone to
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knit when they're facing any sort of pressure, or stress or
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or give them that tool ahead of that point, I think it's it's
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such a benefit for the long term, you know, advances that go
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on within our, within our mental health, and also just in the
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Mia Hobbs: And, obviously, now you're involved with Project net
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neuroplasticity of our brain? Yeah.
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Well, and that's something you're doing for a living. But I
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wonder for you personally, when that link first dawned on you,
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or when you first experienced that as something that knitting
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was not just doing something with your hands, but it was
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actually helping on a psychological level? Yeah.
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Lauren Brennan: That is a really great question. I was thinking
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about the, the title of your, you know, the title of your
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podcast is why why you knit? Yeah, why I knit. And I feel
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like I knit because I have to which it may sound very extreme
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or overstated,
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Mia Hobbs: not to me.
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Lauren Brennan: Not to you good. But I really believe that it
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helps bring me back to a baseline. It provides just an
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overall sense of calm and well being. I think it took me a
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while to realise that these are proven benefits scientifically.
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You know, I, I shake my head now thinking, of course, it lowers
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my blood pressure, I can really feel that. Yeah. And it took me
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a while to make the connection between the scientific evidence.
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And what Project Knitwell tries to do is provide more outlets
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for research, to give people more of a mindset that this is
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actually a tool for well being and a tool for wellness and not
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just a luxurious hobby, or, you know, an opportunity to unwind.
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It's just really recentering and and rebalancing those chemicals
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in your brain and giving you a sense of satisfaction. At the
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same time. I think there are so many activities that can
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rebalance our brain like meditation, and yoga and all of
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these other activities that other people find as releases.
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But I think that knitting has the added benefit of something a
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presentable at the end, a gift that you can give someone or
9:14
something that you can have as a tangible piece. Sentimental
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piece, too. I love to knit on trips. And it to me that is my
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souvenir of the trip. Yeah, you know, it's a memory that I hold.
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You know, I remember where I made each of the shawls that I
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have, and I can I can keep track of the 17 sweaters I knit during
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COVID
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Mia Hobbs: 17 That's impressive.
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Lauren Brennan: I think of how absurd that is. but you know, I
9:45
really genuinely was knitting because I had to It kept me
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going and, and when there was no other, no other sense of
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satisfaction, I always had my knitting and that day, you know,
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every day that I could cast something off was the day where
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I felt particularly satisfied. So yeah.
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Mia Hobbs: And how about once you've finished the thing? It
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sounds like you do keep that kind of relationship with the
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object?
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Lauren Brennan: Yes, I agree. I think that even when you give
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something as a gift, or maybe especially as you give something
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as a gift, it becomes a really sentimental piece of you. And
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it's funny, I think I, you know, I, I don't always give knitted
10:27
gifts to other knitters. So sometimes people don't quite get
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how much has gone into the item you're sharing with them. And
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that can be challenging. Sometimes you want to make sure
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that you're giving the gift to someone that that gets it, you
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know, they they understand the, the effort and the you know, the
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feeling that went into that is, I think is important. But I
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yeah, I keep I keep all of my knits, you feel like you have
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quite a few items that have a sentimental attachment to or
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Mia Hobbs: Yeah, definitely. And I think in a in a similar way to
11:03
you actually. And I think I have grown into my the way in which
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I've used knitting deliberately to help me and I think I did it
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because, you know, I started doing it, my mum suggested it as
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a way of managing kind of exam stress, when I started my
11:22
training, because she'd met someone else who'd learned to
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Brickley. And she thought I needed to do something that was
11:27
unrelated to psychology. So she said, Why don't you learn to
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knit or relearn I've learned as a kid, and it kind of took off
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from there, really, but it has taken me a while to really think
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about the many ways that it has helped me. And I think now I
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deliberately choose projects for significant moments or
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transitions, like when I left working in the NHS, the National
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Health Service here, that was a big thing in terms of my career.
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And I felt like I needed a big project to take me through that
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transition. So I started a particular shawl that I'd been
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kind of planning to knit and that was a project. But now I
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still have it and associated with that transition in my life
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Lauren Brennan: That's so wonderful. Yes, yes, I love that
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you use the word deliberate, because I do think it can be
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really a something that you think about. And I think
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knitters really are deliberate in a lot of what we do. And I
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think that that's a good, that's a really good word to describe
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kind of the practical approach to a new project and, and
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thinking of it as something that's deliberately improving
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your wellness and, you know, helping you and driving you
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towards a sense of accomplishment that you wouldn't
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necessarily have in other things. And, and also, like you
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mentioned, it can be a distraction, you know, it can be
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a way to get to pull yourself out of something that may be all
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consuming and it might be better to be more balanced about it.
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Mia Hobbs: It'd be really helpful to hear about Project
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Knitwell, and how that started and about your involvement.
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Lauren Brennan: Absolutely. So project net well has been a
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formal nonprofit since 2010. So we're we just celebrated our
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11th birthday, which is long standing. Yes, thank you. We're
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very excited to provide knitting as a wellness tool in hospital
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settings and community settings. Throughout our this region. We
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have also expanded to providing virtual knitting instruction
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through Knitwell in the cloud, which we're very excited to have
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more touch points and more opportunity for people to feel
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connected to knitting. We have found that we've taught over
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6000 knitters, new knitters have been born. Yeah, which I think
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is really powerful. And we're really reaching them primarily
13:53
at the point where they are most stressed. So we work with
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patients, we work with their caregivers, people that are
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primarily waiting, and they may need something that pulls them
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out of their patient status, right. So everything they deal
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with in the day has to do with their illness. And if we can
14:15
bring in knitting as a distraction or as something that
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can provide them a sense of calm, to soothe them and comfort
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them in that moment. That's really our ultimate goal. We
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have our mission is knitting with a purpose for comfort,
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wellness and community. And I think of comfort as that point
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of stress. So we come in and we swoop in when they're actually
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in the hospital receiving treatment for cancer, and we're
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providing it out that point as a comfort, but wellness. I think
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of that as a preventative measure so we're trying to reach
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people before For they hit a point of stress, so that they
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can build their parachute, if you will, they can have knitting
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as part of their mental health toolkits, that so when they do
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have a crisis moment, they can turn to knitting to stabilise
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that and give them an opportunity to release that
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tension. And then community of course, is really the top of our
15:24
of our house, that's the roof above all of it. And really
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community is what drives a lot of us to continue to knit. And
15:33
building that sense of you think about the future and how
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knitting can provide a sense of well being among senior citizens
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that come together and knitting circles young people too not not
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just everyone that comes together and knits provides a
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really strong sense of community, which I think is a
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really wonderful piece of the pie.
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Mia Hobbs: So most of the people you're working with, are they
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new to knitting or some of the people who have have knitted
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previously,
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Lauren Brennan: we work with both, I would say primarily,
16:06
we're teaching new knitters, there are quite a few people
16:09
that will say, Oh, I, I learned from my grandmother when I was
16:13
young. Yeah, but I haven't knit in a really long time. So
16:16
sometimes we're catching them back up to speed. But I would
16:20
say that the people that find it most rewarding are those that
16:23
may have never tried it. And they think, Oh, I'm not sure if
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I'll be good at this, or I'm not that great with my hands. But if
16:32
they can overcome that, they find that we've found that they
16:37
find the most satisfaction from it. In the end that perseverance
16:41
is really powerful. You know, you release so much dopamine
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when you feel that rush of Oh, I really was able to overcome
16:50
something that I wasn't certain I would be good at that. I think
16:54
a lot of children I know you work with a lot of children, do
16:57
you feel that they have that sense of accomplishment? Like
17:00
they weren't sure if they could do it yet, but they were able to
17:02
Mia Hobbs: yeah I really do and really feeling kind of proud of
17:06
themselves when they've achieved something new and showing it off
17:13
to other people. And so yeah, really strong sense of pride. I
17:18
suppose it's something I still feel like I get out of knitting
17:20
that when I do a new like recently, I've been knitting a
17:24
hat, which has got very unusual construction. I don't know if
17:28
you know Woolly Wormhead who designs these amazing hats that
17:32
are knitted sideways.
17:33
Lauren Brennan: How fun. Wow, I have one right here. It's one of
17:37
my favourites because it covers my ears. Like at the this is the
17:41
yes, she has she has the break in back it's really wonderful.
17:45
Mia Hobbs: Oh, that's beautiful. And so I'm knitting the Azula I
17:50
think it is. So from the elemental collection, but it's a
17:55
provisional cast on, which is not something I've tried many
17:58
times and certainly not ever successfully I'm going to say
18:04
with a crochet hook. And I mastered that. And then it was a
18:07
different, very different looking pattern that I had to
18:10
learn how to read. And that involved a lot of going back
18:13
over the first few rows and trying to figure out where it
18:16
was I'd gone wrong with the short rows. And then I got it
18:19
and I figured out why. And I still got that boost of oh, I've
18:23
achieved something new. So even 15 years down the line of
18:27
knitting every day.
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Lauren Brennan: Yes, and that actually is the most the best
18:33
part about knitting, there's always more yeah, there's always
18:36
more to strive towards and to try out. And there's always
18:40
little quirky things that you may have forgotten that you
18:43
could go back to or, but I do feel like it's always expanding
18:47
and, and also the fundamental, just repetitive movements, even
18:52
regardless of the challenges are really calming and are able to
18:58
help people get back to baseline also
19:01
Mia Hobbs: are you teaching people individually or in
19:03
groups?
19:05
Lauren Brennan: We primarily teach one on one, we have found
19:07
that that connection is when we're most successful, and part
19:11
of it is it's challenging to follow along without some some
19:17
sort of personal connection. We have occasionally taught in a
19:20
larger group setting. We have groups of nurses, for instance,
19:25
that we can come together in a sort of a professional
19:29
development workshop to give them an opportunity to learn
19:33
what is knitting all about how would it you know, can they they
19:36
can give it a try in a group setting. And we'll bounce
19:40
through you know, we'll have two or three volunteers that can
19:42
bounce around the room and help out. But when we are faced with
19:46
folks that are in a stressful situation, part of the benefit
19:50
is really the conversation that you're having with them. And
19:53
it's not that you're approaching it as an art therapist, you're
19:57
not there for therapy. You're just They're to give them a
20:01
chance to feel like they can have a normal human conversation
20:06
that doesn't have anything to do with their illness or whatever
20:10
stress they're facing. We work with a group of Afghan refugees
20:15
who don't actually speak English yet, and they're learning
20:18
English, but the presence of us and being able to show them with
20:23
our hands, and both of our hands working in unison, just being
20:28
there together, and they come back with these glorious scarves
20:32
that are taller than they are, I have this great picture of one
20:35
of them standing with this enormous scarf that's almost as
20:39
tall as she is. And she was so proud to come back the week
20:44
after she learned to knit with this giant scarf that she had
20:47
been so productive with. And so she was immediately a brand new
20:51
knitter, yes. And we immediately gave her more yarn.
20:57
Mia Hobbs: Wow. So she's really run with it. What's the kind of
20:59
feedback you get from some of your clients from Project
21:03
Knitwell
21:03
Lauren Brennan: Well, yeah, that's a great question I, we've
21:06
really reached out to quite a few younger folks that we're
21:10
really trying to figure out ways to make them feel connected with
21:14
what really is truly not a grandmother's hobby anymore. I
21:18
mean, it's really ridiculous to think of it that way. And we
21:21
have so many young knitters at a school for children with
21:26
emotional challenges. We started running a summer camp there a
21:31
few years ago, and now we're there all year. And the group of
21:35
children that join us are really primarily teenagers are actually
21:40
almost all boys, which is interesting. And they do not
21:44
have any mindset for girl or boy crafts, or hobbies. And I think
21:48
that's just wonderful. But the feedback that we get from, from
21:52
those students, and also from the nursing students that we're
21:56
working with, at the collegiate level, they are telling us, you
22:01
know, I'm spending a lot less time on my phone, I'm not
22:05
scrolling, I can check out of all of that, video games, all of
22:11
that they can, instead use their hands in a niche and really find
22:17
another outlet that's really timeless. And I think giving
22:21
them other benefits that you know, beyond what they would get
22:26
if they were just reading or doing athletics or other things,
22:31
there's another layer to knitting that they wouldn't
22:34
necessarily get if they were always distracted on their
22:37
phones, and it's so great to just have a chance to, I find
22:42
that I put down my phone and check out very easily when I'm
22:46
in a in a knitting and knitting. You know, in a I'm in a
22:53
different mindset with when I knit, and it helps me really be
22:58
removed from the rest of the worries that might be out there
23:02
on, you know, lingering on the news channels on my phone and so
23:07
forth.
23:07
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, so it feels like a more calming and
23:10
grounding activity for you. Absolutely. And I guess you also
23:14
have something to show for it, unlike an hour of scrolling on
23:17
Instagram, right?
23:18
Lauren Brennan: Absolutely, yes. And you have something that
23:21
you've, you've been able to put out into the world, you know,
23:25
it's something that, you know, in the ancient world, I mean,
23:30
there were always people working with their hands. And And also,
23:34
if you think about worry, stones, and beads and things
23:40
that people will use there, they'll have a repetitive
23:44
movement with their fingers. And there are so many cultures that
23:48
have that type of tool. And I think knitting really is, is
23:53
that for so many people with that repetitive movements. I
23:57
think of it as meditation with my hands. So even though I'm not
24:02
really that great at just meditating, yeah, I do think I
24:05
get the same benefit or the same feeling that I would get
24:09
meditating when I'm knitting, a very repetitive pattern that I
24:13
don't have to necessarily pay attention to a chart or yeah,
24:19
there's two types of knitting, I always say I've always had, I
24:23
always have at least two projects, the repetitive,
24:26
easygoing, portable bag that I can just grab and go to the
24:31
swimming pool and knit while my kids are swimming. And then I've
24:36
got the more complicated colour work pattern that I'm really
24:41
focused in on and that's when I need the ultimate distraction.
24:45
And that's really what that that more complicated pattern can
24:48
somehow have a different set of rewards in the long run too
24:52
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, I'm exactly the same with those two categories.
24:56
Lauren Brennan: Are you Oh, good,
24:57
Mia Hobbs: exactly the same because I think sometimes Yeah,
25:00
like you said, you want to do something meditative almost with
25:03
your hands. And I find, certainly for me, I focus better
25:08
on something if I was attending a zoom training or something
25:11
where I had to sit still and listen, I would want to knit and
25:16
that would help me focus. And that could be, you know,
25:18
knitting lots of stockinette in the round. And, you know, could
25:23
be a sock or a hat or something. And then I would like to have
25:27
something more complicated, like that hat pattern where I do need
25:30
to focus I need to count and look at a chart, but that's for,
25:33
I call it active relaxation, where my whole brain needs to be
25:36
busy doing something in order to allow it to turn off from other
25:41
stressful things.
25:43
Lauren Brennan: Yeah, active relaxation. Right? Yes, that it?
25:47
That's a perfect way to describe it, I think. Yeah,
25:50
Mia Hobbs: I used to go to salsa dancing lessons. And I noticed
25:54
that actually, there were loads of doctors at salsa. And I was
25:58
thinking, Why are they all here? And I think, I think I noticed
26:02
them talking about it. Like they couldn't possibly think about
26:05
what is a stressful and busy job. When they were trying to
26:08
think about doing something different with their hands and
26:11
their, you know, their arms and their hands and their feet and
26:13
listening to music all at the same time. They were just
26:16
mutually exclusive. And I suppose I feel like that about
26:19
complicated patterns that, you know, you just can't think about
26:22
other things at the same time.
26:24
Lauren Brennan: Right? Absolutely. And I think it's
26:26
even true in more extreme cases, where when people are facing
26:30
pain in their body, you know, actual physical pain, it can
26:34
really help pull people back, it really pulls your brain in a
26:39
different direction. And so I think physically, and
26:43
scientifically, that has really been proven for so many folks
26:46
that you can really reorganise those synapses in your brain.
26:50
And I, I feel very strongly that there's so much research
26:54
potential to expand on and Project Knitwell really cares
26:59
about figuring out ways that we can study more of these benefits
27:03
that we all already feel. Yeah. And we already know, but how do
27:08
we prove it is the real question.
27:10
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I would love to
27:15
hear about a significant project for you, Lauren, can you think
27:19
of a significant knitting project could be one of yours or
27:22
one from project knitwell,
27:24
Lauren Brennan: that is a really great question. And I
27:26
immediately think of a sweater that I knit for my husband,
27:32
which was really It started really as a labour of love. It
27:35
was the dude sweater from The Big Lebowski, which is a movie
27:40
that it's Who is it? Jeff Bridges is in it. And it's a
27:45
it's kind of an edgy, quirky indie type movie, but it has a
27:50
very recognisable sweater that has a very unique pattern to it.
27:56
I think it might actually be a Native American pattern. So
28:00
it's, I can I could show it to you. But it was the first
28:04
project that I I knit in the round, okay. The knitters dude
28:09
is by Andrea Rangel, I believe. And she, it required a steek
28:16
which is cutting into your knitting. And this was one of
28:21
the largest projects I had ever done. And it had all of these
28:25
gigantic colour work floats, which are really challenging for
28:30
colour work knitters to catch. And I, when I cut into that
28:37
project, I thought, well, here we go, this is gonna sink this
28:43
ship is either gonna sink or sail. And I still think of that
28:47
moment
28:48
Mia Hobbs: by that point, you've knitted the entire thing. And
28:50
then we're gonna cut right downt the centre of it
28:51
Lauren Brennan: saying, yes, hours and hours of work, months,
28:56
months of work. And then I was getting my sharpest scissors out
29:01
and I was getting ready to cut down the centre. And luckily, I
29:05
did set up the camera, I had the mindset of I need to show
29:08
someone and I have really great knitting friends and I said, I'm
29:11
going to at least show someone that I'm, I'm cutting into this.
29:14
If the, if the ship sinks, at least I'll have a memory of the
29:19
ship sinking. So I, I have a time lapse of me cutting cutting
29:25
into it. And I had done every reinforcement, I did the crochet
29:29
reinforcement, I run the knitting, I'd run the sewing
29:33
machine up and down the line. So I was pretty confident that it
29:37
wouldn't sink completely. But it could have partially, you know,
29:42
there could be a partial failure but you know what, it was really
29:49
exhilarating when it worked out and you know, the, the collar
29:53
worked out I ended up making a lot of modifications to the
29:56
pattern because it didn't quite fit. There were more many
30:00
iterations I wanted to have it ready for Christmas and it was
30:03
too long and it didn't have a I had a really awkward collar. And
30:08
so I didn't have it ready for Christmas, but I think I had it
30:11
ready by the end of January I had. I also not only did I cut
30:15
down the middle, but I also chopped about six inches off the
30:18
bottom because it had become a more of a duster than a
30:23
cardigan. Men, or at least my husband wasn't as interested in
30:28
a duster length. Yeah. So it was an adventure. And it definitely
30:34
felt memorable to me. And I think that it was, it was also a
30:39
sense of accomplishment. And even though, you know, he
30:42
occasionally wears it, I probably it doesn't, it doesn't
30:46
fit quite right. It fits pretty well, there's some good pictures
30:49
of him in it. But I think that it's it was still well worth the
30:55
time spent and the rewarding feeling that I overcame a lot to
31:01
persevere. I you know, it could still be sitting in a bag
31:03
somewhere, but it's wearable. So
31:06
Mia Hobbs: it sounds like it's almost like the knitters version
31:08
of skydiving or something.
31:11
Lauren Brennan: Absolutely
31:12
Mia Hobbs: adrenaline fueled.
31:13
Lauren Brennan: yes it was I adrenaline is right. I really
31:17
did feel that way. And you know, there was a certain high when it
31:19
didn't completely unravel.
31:21
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, sure. A bit of magic. I'm interested in. And
31:25
you mentioned a lot of kind of, I don't want to call them
31:28
failures, but a lot of challenges along the way in that
31:31
project. And I think that's something many knitters will
31:33
relate to the idea of, you know, as I say, my knitting group, you
31:38
know, none of us get to be an experienced knitter without
31:41
having to unravel very many things. Possibly even most
31:44
things get unravelled at some point to some extent. I'm
31:47
interested in, I don't know how that feels for you what musings
31:51
you have on that in terms of whether you've learned anything
31:54
from it for the rest of your life, or
31:57
Lauren Brennan: right? Well, I'm a big believer in, there's a
32:01
quote that says like, the person who doesn't make mistakes is
32:04
unlikely to make anything. I think Paul Arden said that,
32:09
okay, I think that knitting is really all about making
32:14
mistakes, every mistake is actually a technique. And when I
32:19
teach someone to knit, I'm usually explaining that to them
32:23
right off the back. And I'm saying that right off the bat
32:26
that, you know, every time you pull the yarn to the front by
32:29
accident, that's actually a technique that you'll use later
32:32
on. And that's a relief in a way that they can think of they can
32:36
think of everything as if you make a mistake in a pattern, you
32:40
know, if you make that mistake repeatedly, it's just a new
32:43
technique, right?
32:44
Mia Hobbs: Or a new pattern
32:45
Lauren Brennan: or a new pattern. Yeah, so. So I think
32:48
that, you know, my feeling on how things go when you're
32:53
knitting something, and, you know, sometimes projects need to
32:56
rest also, you know, if something is aggravating,
32:59
there's no reason to, there's no reason to give it that
33:04
aggravation in that moment. You know, don't give it don't give
33:07
it that, you know, don't give it that level of attention in that
33:10
moment. And just step back from it. I'm, I'm very good at
33:14
letting my my WIPS or my work in progress. Yes, I'm good at
33:19
letting them sit. And they don't taunt me the way they might
33:23
taunt other people. Sometimes I, I find that some knitters with
33:27
works in progress. They get really upset, like, Oh, I
33:30
haven't finished that yet. I need to finish it, I need to get
33:33
back to that. And I really think that it's okay to let them rest.
33:38
Yeah. And I don't want them to taunt me or to make me feel like
33:43
I'm not accomplishing something by letting it sit for a little
33:46
while. And yeah, and sometimes it's just nice to come back to
33:49
it later on. And I think that goes for a lot of things in our
33:52
mental health that you have to step back from them in order to
33:55
gain a little bit of perspective on maybe you look, look more in
34:00
depth on what other people did to make that pattern work for
34:03
them. And I find that going and looking at other people's
34:06
projects on Ravelry is helpful. You know, I could say, oh, well,
34:10
they it looks like they have the same problem with the collar
34:12
that I was having. How did they overcome it? Or what did they do
34:16
differently? Or are looking at other cardigans, like when I was
34:20
working on the dude, I looked for other ideas of what to do
34:25
about the collar that may be less awkward. And I really just
34:29
invented my own collar that's totally different than the shawl
34:32
collar that's called for in the pattern, which really wasn't
34:35
working. So you know, there's ways to kind of get around and
34:39
then that perseverance and it can be pretty powerful too.
34:43
Mia Hobbs: Do you think it spills over into other areas of
34:45
your life? Do you think you've taken those things you've
34:48
learned from knitting and helped you to be more I don't know,
34:51
mindful of the process or able to tolerate mistakes in inverted
34:54
commas in other areas.
34:57
Lauren Brennan: Yeah, I think so. I think I definitely feel
35:00
like I'm a more patient person because of knitting. And I've
35:05
always, I am very perseverent. I don't, I don't usually give up
35:10
very easily. So I think that that's a piece that I take with
35:15
me into other parts of my life. And I think it's a good skill to
35:19
have or a good mindset to have that you can always keep trying.
35:25
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, I think it's made me more appreciative of the
35:28
process. I think of other things like, you know, starting a
35:31
business after I left the National Health Service, not
35:34
having to have figured it all out and got to the end result
35:37
immediately. But to be able to think, no, I'm on a journey
35:40
towards that. That might be hopefully where I'm headed, but
35:43
it's alright to not have figured it all out on day one, right.
35:46
Lauren Brennan: Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's the
35:48
beauty of a new project, right? There's always possibility and
35:53
you can always take it in a different direction if you need
35:55
to.
35:57
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. Yeah.That's really helpful. I always ask
36:00
about a knitting high and a knitting low. I don't know what
36:02
your thoughts are about that. Yes. Yes.
36:04
Lauren Brennan: That's a fun question. Actually, I always
36:07
think about one of my highs was really teaching my boys to knit
36:12
when they were seven and 11. And I'll still occasionally many,
36:16
many years later, find them knitting unprompted, which is
36:20
really, it's I hope that they think back on their, you know,
36:24
their, their mom being this very passionate knitter. And, you
36:29
know, I'm sharing it with them. And I hope that at some point in
36:33
their life, they can turn to it as a wellness tool. I really
36:37
enjoy teaching other people to knit. And, you know, Project
36:41
Knitwell, that's our main mission, our mission really is
36:45
to figure out more outlets to give people the opportunity to
36:50
try out knitting and to learn with quality materials and
36:54
quality instruction that's really proven over the test of
36:58
time that we're using what we think is the best method to
37:02
teach new folks, I have a, prior to the pandemic I was, I had a
37:06
group of neighbours and friends that would come over to knit at
37:11
my house every other week. And it was such a great way to feel
37:15
connected to each other. And we would do knit alongs Have you
37:19
ever done a knit along where you knit the same pattern,
37:23
Mia Hobbs: I've done one with my mum and my sister actually,
37:29
where we couldn't all be together. And I gave them a kind
37:34
of I think it was supposed to be a sock set. You know, where you
37:37
get a small skein of contrasting colour for the heels and the
37:41
toes. But actually, we made cowls. So the idea was to own it
37:46
the same
37:47
Lauren Brennan: the same. Yeah. I love that.
37:49
Mia Hobbs: Because they're more practical for walking dogs
37:51
because the dogs not going to grab hold the end of the scarf
37:54
Lauren Brennan: true that's very true.
37:56
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, so I think that's probably the only one
37:59
I've done. And that was one we just I just made it up
38:01
Lauren Brennan: up. Yes. A personal Yeah. Well, sometimes
38:04
that's the best because then you have complete control. One of
38:08
the knit alongs that I did with some friends of mine was it was
38:12
a mystery knit along. Joji Locatelli the Starting Point,
38:17
which is this gigantic,
38:19
Mia Hobbs: yeah, that's what I knit when I left the NHS you
38:21
actually, it was quite poignant that it was kind of two halves,
38:25
which I saw was like the two halves of my career joining in
38:28
the centre
38:28
Lauren Brennan: coming together. Oh, I love that. It's so
38:31
symbolic, right. So yeah, this is my insanely large starting
38:35
point, right?
38:36
Mia Hobbs: It's beautiful
38:37
Lauren Brennan: it just kept going and going, right? Yeah,
38:40
Wasn't it fun? Did you do it as a mystery? Like you did it right
38:44
along with the pattern?
38:45
Mia Hobbs: No, I didn't. And I did it late after everyone else
38:48
had done it. So I seen all of the clues. It wasn't a mystery,
38:51
but actually, it's strangely in very similar colours to yours.
38:54
Lauren Brennan: Oh, no kidding. Oh, that's fun. Oh, I'd love to
38:57
see. Yeah, the funnest. the really fun part about this is we
39:01
had no idea what shape it would be. We had no idea how the
39:06
mystery would come together. And when when she said okay, now
39:10
start over and do another piece on the other side. We all shook
39:14
our heads like oh, no, this can't be right. Yeah. It was
39:18
really fun to have it unfold. Oh my goodness.
39:21
Mia Hobbs: That's mine.
39:22
Lauren Brennan: We have a matching set of starting points.
39:26
That's interesting.
39:27
Mia Hobbs: So it's kind of just to describe for people listening
39:30
to the podcast who obviously can't see that. I guess mine is
39:33
in shades of white and almost black and then shades of grey
39:37
with a purple and yours Yeah, I think is quite similar
39:40
Lauren Brennan: it's dark blue which kind of matches your black
39:44
Yes. Some shades of kind of a a tealy purpley blue. So yeah, oh
39:49
my goodness. Well, I just loved this pattern, everything about
39:54
it. And my friends knitted knit it with me. So we all had
39:58
different versions. And the gauge I mean, some people's are
40:03
even larger than mine I'm I you know, tight knitters, loose
40:07
knitters everywhere in between and, and we've really I really
40:12
enjoy the opportunity to come together with folks and knits.
40:17
I've been to Rhinebeck, which was a really high in my
40:21
knitting. Career, you know, in terms of being a knitter on the
40:26
east coast in the United States going to Rhinebeck, which is New
40:31
York sheep and wool festival is kind of the pinnacle of you're
40:36
surrounded by people who are true believers in the power of
40:40
knitting. Really. It's like a pilgrimage. Yeah, well, yeah.
40:46
Mia Hobbs: And how about a knitting low?
40:48
Lauren Brennan: Oh, gosh, that's a tough question, because I do
40:51
get so many highs from knitting. But I suppose I suppose there
40:56
have been many times that I've had gauge issues with just a
41:00
beautiful yarn that I was very excited about that just didn't
41:04
knit up the way I hoped it would, it could get saggy or
41:09
just kind of have a drape that wasn't really that appealing.
41:13
But I think sometimes, you know, even when it doesn't come out,
41:16
as you expect, you can always reknit things, that's the beauty
41:21
of knitting, you can always pull it out again. And you can find a
41:25
greater reward in frogging it and then trying over and that's
41:31
part of the, you know, and sometimes the biggest obstacles
41:35
in knitting that I that I think about, I think I actually got a
41:38
really strong dopamine kick from it, you know, I was really gonna
41:41
overcome it and, and move forward to a higher reward. And
41:46
I think that whether you're a beginner knitter or an advanced
41:50
knitter, it's really easy to feel that sense of
41:53
accomplishment and, and I like to think of it as an opportunity
41:59
to, to face a challenge that isn't, you know, it isn't life
42:03
threatening, nothing bad is going to happen, but it gives
42:06
you a chance to feel like you were able to, to try something
42:11
that may have been challenging and overcome it. Yeah,
42:13
Mia Hobbs: I talked about that the kind of the idea of making
42:15
safe mistakes, like, yeah, you know, we struggle with doing
42:19
things that might go wrong, I suppose. Generally, that can
42:21
feel difficult, but I think it is, like you said, it's a way of
42:25
doing something where you try something new, and probably
42:28
there will be things that go wrong, but you can, unless you
42:31
get the scissors out, I always say, which was why the steek is
42:34
so challenging, you can unravel it. So it is a fairly safe way
42:38
of making mistakes, and practising tolerating that, and
42:42
overcoming that I suppse.
42:43
Lauren Brennan: Right? Right. And I hope that I hope that my
42:47
children, or even my friends see that when we overcome things
42:52
together like that, they you know, that they see that that
42:56
sense of safe, you know, safe mistakes really are powerful to
43:00
give you a sense of resilience. And Project Knitwell really
43:04
wants to provide folks that are facing that stressful situation,
43:08
a sense of hope, a sense that they are resilient, that they
43:12
are fundamentally human. And they're, they're striving
43:17
towards something that could be as simple as loops on a needle,
43:22
right. But it doesn't have to be complicated and keeping things
43:26
at the fundamental, simple level of, you know, those individual
43:31
stitches that all come together into something really beautiful,
43:35
is pretty powerful. And I I'm excited that when whenever
43:40
someone new comes to our online, we have an online, knit two
43:45
together community group, and when they come with a new
43:47
project to share, you know, that sense of pride that they have,
43:51
and showing it off and sharing it with someone that they've
43:56
just met on the internet, or they've just met in a hospital
43:59
waiting room, or any number of community settings that we've
44:04
been able to interact with folks, I think it's a great
44:08
equaliser and an opportunity for people to just focus on the
44:13
texture of the yarn, the colour of the yarn. And the the beauty
44:18
of that is so simple.
44:20
Mia Hobbs: And I guess you know, maybe as adults, we don't get so
44:23
many opportunities to do like, show and tell is something I've
44:27
done or made. And I suppose kids are probably better at that
44:31
because we encourage it in them and give them opportunities to
44:34
do it. But guess it's not something that necessarily lands
44:36
on your lap as an adult.
44:39
Lauren Brennan: Yeah, I think we all need show and tell. Exactly.
44:43
Exactly.
44:43
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. So I generally end the interview Lauren with
44:46
the question about what's the greatest gift knitting has given
44:49
you for the rest of your life?
44:51
Lauren Brennan: Oh, goodness, oh my goodness. Well, that the
44:54
greatest gift I think is really in the lesson of finding Finding
45:00
something that grounds you, that gives you some just a sense of
45:04
overall calm and well being. And if it's knitting, I hope that I
45:11
hope that you can share that passion with me. But if it's
45:15
something else, I, I just hope that everyone finds an outlet
45:19
that is as as powerfully rewarding for them as knitting
45:25
is for me.
45:26
Mia Hobbs: Oh, that's great. Thank you very much. It's been
45:29
such a pleasure to talk to you. I'm sure there'll be people who
45:32
want to hear more about Project Knitwell, or about you, where
45:35
can they find out about that?
45:37
Lauren Brennan: Absolutely. We have a website, Project
45:40
Knitwell.org. And we're very excited to connect with folks.
45:44
We have a newsletter that you can subscribe to, that keeps you
45:48
in touch with all of our happenings and Knit Well in the
45:52
cloud is very powerful for us now, because it helps us connect
45:55
with folks all over the world. And we're especially excited to
45:59
have more volunteers that teach virtually, and we are, we're
46:04
here to train people in the methods that we've found to be
46:09
tried and true. And we really feel that more boots on the
46:14
ground in waiting rooms and hospitals and community groups,
46:19
schools, teachers, we are so passionate about reaching out to
46:24
as many communities so if you're a doctor or a nurse or a teacher
46:28
that's facing burnout or feeling that compassion fatigue, we want
46:32
to help you we want to connect you to knitting, we want to find
46:36
a way to give you the opportunity to find out if
46:39
knitting is right for you. So definitely reach out to connect
46:43
with us. And I look forward to continuing to spread wellness
46:49
and spread knitting as a wellness tool.
46:52
Mia Hobbs: Thank you so much for joining me, Lauren. It's been an
46:55
absolute pleasure.
46:57
Lauren Brennan: Thank you so much.
47:04
Mia Hobbs: Thank you for listening to the Why I Knit
47:06
podcast. If you'd like to find out more about therapeutic
47:09
knitting you can follow me on Instagram at knitting is
47:12
therapeutic. Or check out my website therapeutic
47:15
knitting.org. To be notified when a new podcast is released.
47:18
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