Latest / The Path Went Chilly / Karina Holmer Pt. One

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Karina Holmer Pt. One · The Path Went Chilly

0:29
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Pathway Chili.
0:30
Speaker 2: I'm Robin, I'm Jules, and I'm Ashley.
0:34
Speaker 3: Let's dive right into this week's case.
0:37
Speaker 2: June twenty third, nineteen ninety six, Boston, Massachusetts, the dismembered
0:43
Speaker 2: upper body of twenty year old Karina Homer is found
0:46
Speaker 2: inside a plastic trash bag in a dumpster. She was
0:49
Speaker 2: strangled to death before her body was sliced directly in half,
0:53
Speaker 2: and the lower portion of her body is never recovered.
0:56
Speaker 2: Karina hills from Sweden and has spent the past three
0:59
Speaker 2: months wor King is an o pair for a married couple,
1:02
Speaker 2: and she was last seen partying at a nightclub nearby
1:05
Speaker 2: nearly thirty six hours before she was found. Even though
1:09
Speaker 2: the investigation looks at a number of potential suspects, there's
1:13
Speaker 2: no evidence to implicate anyone and the crime remains unsolved.
1:18
Speaker 1: After that, the path went Chile. So this week we're
1:21
Speaker 1: going to be covering one of the most brutal unsolved
1:24
Speaker 1: crimes of the modern era, the nineteen ninety six murder
1:27
Speaker 1: of Karina Holmer. This case has often been compared to
1:30
Speaker 1: the unsolved nineteen forty seven murder of Elizabeth Short aka
1:34
Speaker 1: the black Dollia murder, since both crimes involve a young
1:37
Speaker 1: female victim having their bodies literally sliced in half at
1:41
Speaker 1: the waist. Karina Holmer hailed from a small village in
1:44
Speaker 1: Sweden and traveled to the United States in order to
1:46
Speaker 1: work as an old pair for a family who lived
1:49
Speaker 1: in a suburb of Boston. One night, Krina decided to
1:52
Speaker 1: go to a downtown nightclub with her friends, but she
1:55
Speaker 1: became separated from them and would not be seen until
1:58
Speaker 1: nearly thirty six hours later, when the upper half of
2:00
Speaker 1: her dismembered body was discovered inside a plastic trash bag
2:04
Speaker 1: in a dumpster. One of the most frustrating aspects of
2:07
Speaker 1: the investigation is that there were contradictory eyewitness accounts about
2:11
Speaker 1: the circumstances of how Karina left the nightclub, and it's
2:14
Speaker 1: unclear if she was alone or in the company of
2:16
Speaker 1: someone who may have been her killer. What further complicates
2:20
Speaker 1: things is that Karina had written letters to her family
2:22
Speaker 1: and friends in Sweden in which she expressed unhappiness with
2:25
Speaker 1: her situation and seemed anxious to return home. In fact,
2:29
Speaker 1: she told one friend that quote unquote, something terrible had happened,
2:33
Speaker 1: but never revealed what she was referring to, and we
2:36
Speaker 1: have no idea if this statement has any possible connection
2:39
Speaker 1: to her death. Investigators would uncover a couple of potential suspects,
2:43
Speaker 1: but no conclusive evidence to link any of them to
2:45
Speaker 1: the crime. So on this series of episodes, we're going
2:48
Speaker 1: to try and figure out why Karina became the victim
2:51
Speaker 1: of such a sadistic murder.
2:53
Speaker 4: So question for you when she's writing about something terrible
2:56
Speaker 4: had happened, is that indirect reference of her job as
2:59
Speaker 4: an all pair she.
3:01
Speaker 1: Never actually said. She just said she was unhappy, but
3:03
Speaker 1: she never specifically said anything about her job or the
3:06
Speaker 1: family she's living with, and they never found any evidence
3:09
Speaker 1: that she had anything going on in the home that
3:12
Speaker 1: could have played a role in her death. So it's
3:14
Speaker 1: just one of those cryptic statements where she didn't offer
3:16
Speaker 1: any context, and now that she was murdered, everybody is
3:20
Speaker 1: wondering what she meant.
3:21
Speaker 4: And you have to think too, that she's downtown at
3:24
Speaker 4: a nightclub with her friends, and so when she separated
3:26
Speaker 4: from them, she becomes an ideal target.
3:28
Speaker 1: Right.
3:28
Speaker 4: You have somebody late at night, possibly intoxicated, but with
3:32
Speaker 4: a lot of other people who might be intoxicated or
3:34
Speaker 4: not paying attention or even not there, and so she
3:38
Speaker 4: could be someone who was a victim of an opportunistic
3:41
Speaker 4: person who's downtown in an area where people are drinking
3:44
Speaker 4: and waiting for somebody to be isolated away from people
3:47
Speaker 4: that they know.
3:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, as we're going to talk about, this is one
3:50
Speaker 1: of the more frustrating cases I've seen involving eyewitness sightings
3:53
Speaker 1: because we're going to hear a bunch of different accounts
3:56
Speaker 1: from people who might be the last person to see
3:58
Speaker 1: Karina alive, but they provide such differing accounts of what
4:02
Speaker 1: happened that you can't really be sure, Like, she was
4:04
Speaker 1: seen in the company of a number of different individuals,
4:06
Speaker 1: but you're just not sure if she left with them
4:08
Speaker 1: or where she would have gone. So all we know
4:11
Speaker 1: is she left the club at some point and then
4:13
Speaker 1: thirty six hours later she was found murdered in a dumpster,
4:16
Speaker 1: and we have no idea how.
4:19
Speaker 2: So our story begins in Massachusetts in nineteen ninety six.
4:23
Speaker 2: Our central figure is twenty year old Karina Homer, who
4:26
Speaker 2: hails from Alarid, Sweden, a small farming village of less
4:30
Speaker 2: than one hundred people, which is located over three hundred
4:33
Speaker 2: and seventy five kilometers southwest of the capital city of Stockholm.
4:37
Speaker 2: Karina grew up there with her parents and three sisters,
4:41
Speaker 2: but had an adventurous spirit and hoped to own or
4:43
Speaker 2: manage a restaurant someday. Karina received a major break when
4:48
Speaker 2: she won ten thousand krona on a scratch ticket in
4:51
Speaker 2: this Swedish state lottery, which was the equivalent of fifteen
4:54
Speaker 2: hundred American dollars at that time, and decided that she
4:57
Speaker 2: would use the money to finance a trip to the
5:00
Speaker 2: the United States. Karna's older sister, Johanna, had previous experience
5:05
Speaker 2: working as a no pair, a job which involves traveling
5:08
Speaker 2: to a foreign country to provide childcare and housework for
5:11
Speaker 2: a host family in exchange for room and board and
5:14
Speaker 2: a weekly stipend. Since Karina wanted to follow in her
5:18
Speaker 2: sister's footsteps, she contacted no pair agency that specialized in
5:22
Speaker 2: US placements and wound up receiving a job with an
5:25
Speaker 2: American family. The couple in question were Frank Rapp, a
5:30
Speaker 2: forty three year old commercial professor, and Susan Niictor, a
5:34
Speaker 2: thirty seven year old artist, and they had a six
5:37
Speaker 2: year old son and a daughter who was still a toddler.
5:39
Speaker 2: The family lived in a condominium complex in a wealthy,
5:42
Speaker 2: upscale suburb of Dover, located about fifteen miles southwest of
5:47
Speaker 2: downtown Boston. Karina accepted the position and left for the
5:51
Speaker 2: United States in March, but before she boarded her plane
5:55
Speaker 2: at the airport, the last word she said to her
5:57
Speaker 2: family were quote, I hope I doing the right thing.
6:02
Speaker 2: While Karina would spend the week living in this bare
6:04
Speaker 2: room in the family's condo, Frank Rapp gave her the
6:07
Speaker 2: keys to his photography studio, which was located in the
6:10
Speaker 2: four Point neighborhood of South Boston and doubled is a loft.
6:15
Speaker 2: Karina spent her weekends there, and this gave her the
6:17
Speaker 2: opportunity to explore the city and make new friends. She
6:21
Speaker 2: became acquainted with some other Swedish O pairs who lived
6:24
Speaker 2: in the area and would often invite them to her
6:27
Speaker 2: loft and go out to the night club with them.
6:30
Speaker 4: See that's something that's normal for them. It's somebody that
6:32
Speaker 4: you know. She's acquainted with other people who have similar
6:35
Speaker 4: backgrounds with her, She's able to connect with them on
6:37
Speaker 4: a level that the other people she would see on
6:40
Speaker 4: a daily basis, she wouldn't be able to write her heritage,
6:42
Speaker 4: her culture, the fact that she's an all pair right
6:45
Speaker 4: in this kind of unique, bizarre experience that you have
6:48
Speaker 4: where you're kind of uprooted and repositioned into a family home,
6:51
Speaker 4: you're given responsibilities to actually be basically a second mother
6:55
Speaker 4: to children, right with people you don't know very well
6:58
Speaker 4: to start. And so I love that she has this
7:01
Speaker 4: acquaintance group of people who do live in the same
7:04
Speaker 4: area that invite her to hang out and go to
7:06
Speaker 4: the night clubs with them.
7:08
Speaker 3: But it's that moment that she has separated from them.
7:10
Speaker 4: I'm interested to hear how that night actually went and
7:12
Speaker 4: what people say occurred, because I do, in my gut
7:16
Speaker 4: feel like if she gets separated from these people who
7:18
Speaker 4: are supposed to be, you know, part of her network,
7:21
Speaker 4: she becomes this highly vulnerable person.
7:25
Speaker 3: Could it have been someone she knows?
7:26
Speaker 4: Absolutely right, especially when you look at the kind of
7:28
Speaker 4: aggressive nature you're going to describe to me, But also
7:34
Speaker 4: it almost goes even beyond like a anger lust killing
7:37
Speaker 4: and it's more, like you said, one of the most
7:39
Speaker 4: sadistic And I'm wondering does that screen more of a
7:43
Speaker 4: stranger kind of serial killer person than it does just
7:46
Speaker 4: maybe an acquaintance or someone who's interested in her sexually
7:49
Speaker 4: and maybe got denied. So to me, I almost think
7:52
Speaker 4: it's that extreme stranger situation that would result in such brutality.
8:00
Speaker 1: To make a lot of parallels to the Black Dolly
8:02
Speaker 1: murder from nineteen forty seven, and of course that one
8:04
Speaker 1: is still unsolved all these years later, and it has
8:07
Speaker 1: always baffled people because Elizabeth Short was sliced in half.
8:10
Speaker 1: That was the only crime that took place in Los
8:12
Speaker 1: Angeles at that time that matched that description. So you're
8:15
Speaker 1: wondering to yourself, was she killed by someone she knew
8:18
Speaker 1: or was just just some serial killer who was experimenting
8:21
Speaker 1: and wanted to murder her in the most brutal, sadistic
8:24
Speaker 1: manner possible. And that's the same thing with Karina Holmer.
8:27
Speaker 1: Like Boston had never seen a crime like this where
8:29
Speaker 1: a victim was literally sliced in half and had their
8:32
Speaker 1: body their torso dumped in a dumpster. So it makes
8:35
Speaker 1: you wonder, is this someone that has experienced with this
8:38
Speaker 1: sort of thing, or it was it a personal crime
8:40
Speaker 1: by someone who hated Karina so much that they felt
8:43
Speaker 1: the need to slice her in.
8:45
Speaker 2: Half and to bisect a body like wouldn't that be
8:48
Speaker 2: a lot of labor? I guess it would depend on
8:52
Speaker 2: the tools or the implements used. But it seems most
8:55
Speaker 2: likely that if one was going to do something like that,
8:58
Speaker 2: that they would do it at another location and then
9:01
Speaker 2: dumped the body. Or is it possible that they bisected
9:06
Speaker 2: her out in the public or somewhere close by.
9:09
Speaker 1: I think it's most likely that she was killed at
9:11
Speaker 1: another location and they just dumped the body there. But yeah,
9:15
Speaker 1: as we're going to talk about, this was a very
9:17
Speaker 1: careful crime where it looked like it was someone with
9:19
Speaker 1: a lot of surgical skill who knew what they were doing,
9:22
Speaker 1: and it makes you think that this is not the
9:24
Speaker 1: first time they murdered someone. So On the evening of Friday,
9:28
Speaker 1: June the twenty first, Karina and some of her Swedish
9:30
Speaker 1: friends decided to celebrate the Summer Solstice, which is considered
9:34
Speaker 1: to be one of the biggest holidays in Sweden, since
9:36
Speaker 1: they experienced around eighteen hours of daylight. On that date,
9:40
Speaker 1: Karina and her friends went to Zanzibar, a prominent nightclub
9:43
Speaker 1: located on Bolston Place, in an area known as the Alley,
9:46
Speaker 1: which was home to a number of nightclubs and partying spots.
9:50
Speaker 1: Even though the legal drinking age in Massachusetts was twenty
9:53
Speaker 1: one and Karina was just two month shy of her
9:55
Speaker 1: twenty first birthday, she was able to gain access to
9:58
Speaker 1: Zanzibar and purchased by using a fake ID. At some
10:02
Speaker 1: point during the evening, Creane became separated from her friends
10:05
Speaker 1: and left the club. And we have a number of
10:07
Speaker 1: different accounts of what happened, which we'll get into momentarily,
10:11
Speaker 1: but no one heard from Kreane over the weekend, and
10:14
Speaker 1: there was no indication that she ever returned to her loft.
10:17
Speaker 1: At around one thirty pm on Sunday, June the twenty third,
10:20
Speaker 1: just under thirty six hours after Karina was last seen,
10:23
Speaker 1: a homeless man started searching through a dumpster behind an
10:26
Speaker 1: apartment building located in the Back Bay neighborhood, which was
10:29
Speaker 1: a short distance away from the iconic baseball stadium Fenway Park.
10:34
Speaker 1: The man was searching for cans, but accidentally ripped open
10:37
Speaker 1: a black plastic trash bag in the dumpster and was
10:40
Speaker 1: horrified to see what appeared to be a human arm inside.
10:43
Speaker 1: When the man fetched the police and they arrived at
10:45
Speaker 1: the scene, they discovered that the bag contained the dismembered
10:48
Speaker 1: upper half of a female body, and the victim was
10:50
Speaker 1: eventually identified as Karina Holmer. Her body had been sliced
10:54
Speaker 1: directly in half at the waist, and this was done
10:57
Speaker 1: in such a calculated fashion that the only bone the
11:00
Speaker 1: perpetrator needed to cut through was Karina's spine, though a
11:03
Speaker 1: small piece of her hip was shaved off by the
11:05
Speaker 1: cutting tool. A medical disc believed to belong to a
11:08
Speaker 1: circular saw was also found in the dumpster.
11:12
Speaker 4: Dear lord, Okay, so are they thinking that this is
11:14
Speaker 4: somebody with a medical background or somebody who has knowledge
11:18
Speaker 4: of exactly how to dismember the body similar to what
11:21
Speaker 4: they were talking about with the black delia? Is the
11:23
Speaker 4: precision that's needed here?
11:26
Speaker 3: Is that where people's minds went.
11:28
Speaker 1: I think. So we're going to talk about a number
11:30
Speaker 1: of potential suspects that pop up on the radar, but
11:32
Speaker 1: none of these people have a medical background. So there
11:35
Speaker 1: have never been any doctors who've popped up into focus
11:38
Speaker 1: that looked like someone who would have the surgical skill
11:41
Speaker 1: to do something like that. But because this was done
11:43
Speaker 1: so meticulously. You have to think that they had previous experience,
11:47
Speaker 1: because one of the odds that someone for the first
11:49
Speaker 1: time who decides to slice a body in half would
11:52
Speaker 1: be able to do it so thoroughly that they would
11:54
Speaker 1: only cut one bone, the spine.
11:57
Speaker 2: I think likely this has got to be their second
12:00
Speaker 2: and her third murder. This can't be their first go round.
12:02
Speaker 2: But somebody who was potentially like a hunter, who really
12:06
Speaker 2: understood the body, and they could maybe look at a
12:08
Speaker 2: medical textbook and get a pretty good idea of the
12:11
Speaker 2: human body and then just translate that into what would
12:16
Speaker 2: look like surgical precision.
12:18
Speaker 1: Also a butcher, that's true as well, So anyone who
12:21
Speaker 1: has experienced just cutting through things would have been capable
12:25
Speaker 1: of doing something like this.
12:27
Speaker 2: So the top half of Karina's body had been thoroughly
12:30
Speaker 2: cleaned and her makeup was removed, and there were no
12:34
Speaker 2: apparent bruises or defensive winds. Since Karina had would appear
12:38
Speaker 2: to be rope or cord marks on her neck, the
12:40
Speaker 2: medical examiner determined that her exact cause of death was strangulation,
12:45
Speaker 2: and this took place before she was dismembered. However, the
12:49
Speaker 2: lower half of Karina's body was never found, so it
12:52
Speaker 2: was impossible to determine if she'd been sexually assaulted. Swabs
12:56
Speaker 2: of Karna's mouth and fingernails failed to turn up any
12:59
Speaker 2: friends evidence, though a partial fingerprint was found on the
13:03
Speaker 2: trash bag. Even though this print was run through a
13:06
Speaker 2: national database, it failed to turn up a match. The
13:09
Speaker 2: dumpster was located just under two miles away from the
13:12
Speaker 2: Zansavar nightclub, and the medical examiner estimated that Karina had
13:17
Speaker 2: been alive for at least twenty four hours after she
13:20
Speaker 2: was last seen there. This would have placed her approximate
13:23
Speaker 2: time of death as taking place sometime during the early
13:26
Speaker 2: morning hours of June twenty third, meaning that she may
13:29
Speaker 2: have been held captive, though no one could pinpoint an
13:32
Speaker 2: exact location for her murder. Karina's family was informed a
13:36
Speaker 2: vote her death by the US State Department before her
13:38
Speaker 2: body was transported back to Sweden. Her friends and family
13:42
Speaker 2: decided to wear colorful clothing at her funeral to commemorate
13:45
Speaker 2: her joyful personality, and they also read out a poem
13:49
Speaker 2: she had once composed titled Life, in which she wrote,
13:52
Speaker 2: quote the richest gift you ever got was life. Don't
13:56
Speaker 2: throw that away or ever step on it, but hold
13:59
Speaker 2: it high in your hands.
14:01
Speaker 3: How cool is that?
14:03
Speaker 4: I love that her friends said, you know, look, we're
14:04
Speaker 4: going to honor her joyfulness and her love and the
14:08
Speaker 4: creativity that she is. And so they're wearing this bright
14:11
Speaker 4: color in the darkest you know moments, especially when they
14:14
Speaker 4: start learning exactly what happened to her. I can't even
14:18
Speaker 4: imagine the weight and the grief that surrounded them. This
14:21
Speaker 4: print that they found is really interesting because it failed
14:24
Speaker 4: to turn up a match. And I'm wondering this, like
14:26
Speaker 4: how significant it truly is, because remember, the person who
14:29
Speaker 4: found her was digging for cans, and had they not
14:31
Speaker 4: ripped into that bag, would they have even found her?
14:35
Speaker 4: And so how many other people were let's say, scrummling,
14:38
Speaker 4: you know, going through that trash or pushing that bag
14:41
Speaker 4: down to get more trash in the container. So, you know,
14:45
Speaker 4: while it's huge when you find it, you also wonder
14:49
Speaker 4: could it have also just been you know, superposely placed
14:52
Speaker 4: there as well?
14:53
Speaker 1: That is true. I guess it would depend how long
14:55
Speaker 1: the bag had been in there, Like I'm sure they
14:57
Speaker 1: probably compared to the print of the man who found
14:59
Speaker 1: her and made sure that it didn't belong to him,
15:02
Speaker 1: but they don't know how long the bag was in there,
15:04
Speaker 1: so if other people innocuously touched it, it's possible the
15:07
Speaker 1: print it does not belong to the killer. And as
15:09
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about, they have checked a bunch
15:11
Speaker 1: of potential suspects over the years and it does not
15:14
Speaker 1: sound like the print has matched any of them either,
15:16
Speaker 1: But that doesn't necessarily rule them out, because we don't
15:19
Speaker 1: know if the print belongs to the killer.
15:22
Speaker 2: And can we just take a minute to acknowledge just
15:25
Speaker 2: how horrifying a proposition it is that Karina was likely
15:29
Speaker 2: alive for an entire day and held captive by the
15:33
Speaker 2: person that did this grizzly act to her. I can't
15:37
Speaker 2: even imagine what she went through and the terror, Like
15:41
Speaker 2: how horrifying You've got this person who clearly is a psychopath.
15:46
Speaker 2: I mean, to bisect a body like that and to
15:49
Speaker 2: just dump it, and who knows what he did or
15:53
Speaker 2: didn't do. I mean, it's likely a he, but it's
15:57
Speaker 2: just horrifying, Like I shudder at the thought.
16:00
Speaker 4: And like you said, when we're thinking about the brutality
16:03
Speaker 4: of this, it has to be someone with experience, it
16:06
Speaker 4: has to be someone who has done this before, who
16:08
Speaker 4: has the confidence and the brazen approach to somebody to say, hey,
16:13
Speaker 4: if they did keep her alive for let's say a
16:16
Speaker 4: whole day and are abusing her and then decide to
16:20
Speaker 4: dissect her, this has to be someone who this is
16:23
Speaker 4: just kind of like another day, another walk in the
16:26
Speaker 4: park for them, which is so disturbing that could it
16:29
Speaker 4: have been someone she knew and existed beside, or is
16:32
Speaker 4: it somebody again who's waiting and watching and says, there's
16:35
Speaker 4: someone who looks vulnerable.
16:36
Speaker 3: There are the perfect target for me.
16:39
Speaker 1: At least, they did establish that she was straggled to
16:41
Speaker 1: death before she was dismembered, so at the very least
16:43
Speaker 1: she wasn't alive when they saw her in half. But
16:46
Speaker 1: because we only found half of her body, we don't
16:48
Speaker 1: know if she underwent any torture during the time period
16:51
Speaker 1: she may have been held captive. So the Boston Police
16:54
Speaker 1: Department wouldlaunch an investigation and interviewed over three hundred witnesses
16:58
Speaker 1: in an attempt to figure out what happened Karina. Like
17:01
Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier, there would be a number of contradictory
17:03
Speaker 1: accounts from the eyewitnesses who last saw Karina at the
17:07
Speaker 1: Zanzabar nightclub between two and three am on June and
17:10
Speaker 1: twenty second. Since Karina became separated from her friends, none
17:14
Speaker 1: of them could recall having seen or leave the club,
17:17
Speaker 1: though multiple people reported that she had become heavily intoxicated,
17:20
Speaker 1: and one of the club's bouncers supposedly found Karina passed
17:24
Speaker 1: out in the bathroom shortly before closing and escorted her outside.
17:28
Speaker 1: Witnesses recalled seeing a drunk Karina in an alleyway, where
17:32
Speaker 1: she was complaining about being abandoned by her friends and
17:34
Speaker 1: unable to get back into the club. She was also
17:37
Speaker 1: seen in the alley talking, singing, and dancing with a
17:40
Speaker 1: homeless man, and there were other reports of her walking
17:42
Speaker 1: away from the club alone on Tremont Street. However, these
17:46
Speaker 1: accounts seemed to be contradicted by a witness who happened
17:49
Speaker 1: to be the boyfriend of one of the women Karina
17:51
Speaker 1: went to the club with. He told police that he
17:54
Speaker 1: had been planning to drive Karina home, but she wound
17:56
Speaker 1: up climbing into a gray Mitsubishi being driven by two men.
18:00
Speaker 1: When the witness tried to intervene, one of the men
18:03
Speaker 1: made profane threats for him to get away from the
18:05
Speaker 1: car before they drove away. As far as I can tell,
18:08
Speaker 1: this witness's story was never corroborated, though while she was
18:11
Speaker 1: inside the club, Kreina did apparently tell one of her
18:14
Speaker 1: female friends that she was planning to go to an
18:17
Speaker 1: after hours party with an older man. To add to
18:20
Speaker 1: the confusion, witnesses also reported seeing Karina between three thirty
18:24
Speaker 1: and four thirty am that morning inside a twenty four
18:27
Speaker 1: hour convenience store on Massachusetts Avenue near Havilan Street, a
18:31
Speaker 1: spot located about one block away from the dumpster where
18:34
Speaker 1: her dismembered body was eventually found. Investigators decided to check
18:39
Speaker 1: footage from Zanzibar's exterior security camera, and while the quality
18:43
Speaker 1: of the footage was very grainy, they were able to
18:45
Speaker 1: make out an image of a woman resembling Krena who
18:48
Speaker 1: was standing outside the club and speaking to a burly
18:51
Speaker 1: man who appeared to be in his forties and was
18:53
Speaker 1: accompanied by a large white dog.
18:56
Speaker 4: So in there you have multiple people that we really
18:59
Speaker 4: don't know who they are that are being described the
19:02
Speaker 4: homeless man, which I doubt that it's him because most
19:05
Speaker 4: likely where would he have taken her for hours, you know,
19:08
Speaker 4: and possibly twenty four hours. I don't see that being
19:12
Speaker 4: the case. This idea that there's two men is really
19:15
Speaker 4: interesting because you have such a you know, kind of brazen,
19:19
Speaker 4: I don't know, violent attack on her. Is it possible
19:23
Speaker 4: two people are doing that. It's possible. There's this older
19:27
Speaker 4: man that she's going to go to an after party with,
19:29
Speaker 4: and then there's that burly man with the dog. So
19:32
Speaker 4: right there you have five people who individuals are saying
19:36
Speaker 4: from the same location right that they're observing all of
19:39
Speaker 4: these things with Karina so highly confusing because it's almost
19:43
Speaker 4: like these people are seeing five completely different bar scenes
19:47
Speaker 4: and only one of them or none of them, is
19:50
Speaker 4: actually the person who came to take her.
19:52
Speaker 2: What do you guys think The chances are that if
19:56
Speaker 2: say that it was two men, maybe they didn't even
19:59
Speaker 2: abduct her. Maybe she got into that vehicle willingly. If
20:02
Speaker 2: it was indeed the Mitsubishi and they took her to
20:06
Speaker 2: like a quote unquote after party, which may have just
20:09
Speaker 2: been the two of them, things took a turn and
20:11
Speaker 2: they ended up sexually assaulting her. Potentially that could explain
20:16
Speaker 2: why one of them maybe had killed before or had
20:20
Speaker 2: some kind of knowledge of the human body and was like,
20:24
Speaker 2: oh crap, Like, we've sexually assaulted her DNA as a
20:27
Speaker 2: thing in nineteen ninety six, and we don't want to
20:30
Speaker 2: be tied to this crime. So let's bathe her and
20:33
Speaker 2: bisect the body and then distribute them in different places,
20:37
Speaker 2: and then there's a likelihood that a stronger likelihood that
20:40
Speaker 2: we wouldn't be tied to this.
20:42
Speaker 1: Forensically, that would make sense because they never did find
20:46
Speaker 1: the lower half of her body, so they were unable
20:48
Speaker 1: to determine if she was sexually assaulted. They never found
20:51
Speaker 1: any DNA, And I do think that the scenario of
20:54
Speaker 1: her leaving with two men who subsequently harmed her seems
20:57
Speaker 1: like one of the more logical ones because it sounded
20:59
Speaker 1: like these eyes were kind of threatening and they were
21:01
Speaker 1: taking advantage of a girl who was heavily intoxicated. But
21:04
Speaker 1: it's just so frustrating that other than that one witness,
21:07
Speaker 1: no one else has been able to corroborate seeing these
21:09
Speaker 1: men in the Midstubishi taking Koreina away. So it makes
21:12
Speaker 1: you wonder is his account accurate, because if it is,
21:15
Speaker 1: then your scenario probably would make a lot of sense.
21:19
Speaker 4: And you've got to remember too, Typically you don't have
21:22
Speaker 4: killers who operate in tandem, right, But when you do
21:25
Speaker 4: have two people who are psychotic and mentally disturbed, when
21:30
Speaker 4: they're working together, they can often even escalate each other's depravity.
21:34
Speaker 4: And so it is possible that these two men get together,
21:37
Speaker 4: let's say, even consensually with her at first, and or
21:40
Speaker 4: at least to the max.
21:42
Speaker 3: You can with an intoxicated woman.
21:43
Speaker 4: Right, It's not consensual, but willingly she gets into the
21:46
Speaker 4: car with them, and then they proceed to start to,
21:49
Speaker 4: let's say, take advantage of her.
21:51
Speaker 3: Let's say she resists them.
21:52
Speaker 4: Do they keep one upping each other with the violence,
21:55
Speaker 4: and it almost gives permission to continue to be more
21:58
Speaker 4: and more violent with her.
22:00
Speaker 2: If you have two offenders in there, like a Leonard
22:02
Speaker 2: like and a Robert Ang, it's very possible. So it
22:06
Speaker 2: turned out that Karina had been dating a Boston police
22:09
Speaker 2: officer and originally met him at Zanzibar, where he often
22:13
Speaker 2: worked paid details. While his identity was never released publicly,
22:18
Speaker 2: investigators did determine that he was not at Zanzibar and
22:21
Speaker 2: had an alibi on the night that Karina was murdered,
22:24
Speaker 2: so he was never considered to be a suspect. Police
22:27
Speaker 2: also decided to put some focus on Frank Rapp and
22:30
Speaker 2: Susan Niictor, the married couple whom Karina had been working
22:33
Speaker 2: for in Dover. It was common practice for O pairs
22:37
Speaker 2: traveling to the US to obtain a standard thirteen month
22:40
Speaker 2: work visa through the United States Information Agency, but instead
22:44
Speaker 2: Karina went through an unlicensed Swedish agent named Page Sundin,
22:49
Speaker 2: who'd provided Frank and Susan with O pairs in the past.
22:52
Speaker 2: This meant the Karina arrived in the US without any
22:55
Speaker 2: work visa or childcare training, and she also had a
22:58
Speaker 2: fake ID which she used to get into nightclubs while
23:01
Speaker 2: under the legal drinking age. Since Karina was technically in
23:05
Speaker 2: the country illegally and never made any contact with the
23:08
Speaker 2: Swedish consulate in Boston, she took her OH pair job
23:11
Speaker 2: without working out a formal legal agreement about pay and responsibilities.
23:15
Speaker 2: Sundean had previously been fined and convicted on two separate
23:19
Speaker 2: occasions for operating without a permit, and Karina's murder compelled
23:23
Speaker 2: him to take full responsibility for her death and announced
23:26
Speaker 2: that he was planning to close his business.
23:30
Speaker 4: So do you guys think that it's possible. I want
23:33
Speaker 4: to know more about the family that she worked for.
23:35
Speaker 4: I'm assuming that they were cleared. Is it possible that
23:38
Speaker 4: she could have gotten mixed up in Sundeen's own issues?
23:42
Speaker 4: Is it possible that she was going to speak out,
23:44
Speaker 4: or she was frustrated, or she had made a report.
23:47
Speaker 4: Could she have even done something like that because she's
23:49
Speaker 4: in the country illegally, what do we know about that
23:52
Speaker 4: dynamic with both a family and with the legal issues
23:56
Speaker 4: that her quote boss is in.
24:00
Speaker 1: Well, I don't have any further information about Page Sun Dean.
24:03
Speaker 1: It sounds like he was living in Sweden at the time,
24:06
Speaker 1: so I don't think he was considered to be a suspect.
24:08
Speaker 1: But at this moment, I'm going to share more details
24:10
Speaker 1: about the family she was living with who were looked
24:13
Speaker 1: at as potential suspects. And on the surface, they don't
24:16
Speaker 1: seem to have a background to suggest that they're capable
24:18
Speaker 1: of murder. But on the other hand, there's some people
24:21
Speaker 1: who think that there might be something off with them
24:23
Speaker 1: and that they may not be telling everything they know.
24:26
Speaker 2: And let me just add this about living in Malaysia
24:28
Speaker 2: before we go any further. There were so many instances
24:33
Speaker 2: that you would read about in the paper there where
24:36
Speaker 2: these upstanding couples. They would get made from Indonesia and
24:41
Speaker 2: then somehow that maid would escape and or have help
24:46
Speaker 2: escaping and go to the police. They would be like
24:49
Speaker 2: covered in injuries. They'd either been tortured, held against their will.
24:54
Speaker 2: It was horrific, and these are people that you wouldn't
24:57
Speaker 2: think would do something like that based on their community standing.
25:01
Speaker 2: It was really shocking.
25:03
Speaker 4: So it's more like a labor trafficking situation where then
25:06
Speaker 4: they become either a victim of violence or sexual abuse
25:09
Speaker 4: or things like that.
25:10
Speaker 3: It was there.
25:11
Speaker 2: I mean, it got to the point where I think
25:14
Speaker 2: Indonesia made a statement that, like Malaysia had to change
25:17
Speaker 2: things or they weren't going to let people come there
25:20
Speaker 2: and work as nanny's and housekeepers because it was clearly
25:24
Speaker 2: a real danger for some of these people. I mean,
25:26
Speaker 2: the percentages of the people that came stuff like that happened,
25:31
Speaker 2: it was smaller, but there was still it seemed to
25:34
Speaker 2: be a decent percentage where they were taken advantage of,
25:38
Speaker 2: and like you said, labor trafficked in some kind of
25:40
Speaker 2: a way.
25:42
Speaker 1: So Karina wrote a number of letters to her friends
25:44
Speaker 1: and family in Sweden, and even though she had originally
25:47
Speaker 1: been planning to return home in August, she told them
25:49
Speaker 1: that she was going to cut her trip short because
25:51
Speaker 1: she had become homesick and did not enjoy the cleaning
25:54
Speaker 1: and housework that were a part of her old pair job.
25:57
Speaker 1: But curiously, in a letter she mailed to one of
25:59
Speaker 1: her friends in the weeks prior to her death, Karina wrote, quote,
26:03
Speaker 1: something terrible has happened. I'll reveal more when I get home.
26:06
Speaker 1: End quote. It does not appear that Kreina revealed any
26:09
Speaker 1: specific details about this situation before she was killed, and
26:13
Speaker 1: for their part, Frank and Susan maintained that Krena always
26:16
Speaker 1: seemed happy while she was working for them and never
26:19
Speaker 1: raised any complaints. The couple told the media they had
26:22
Speaker 1: an alibi during the approximate time period of the crime,
26:25
Speaker 1: as they spent the evening of Friday, June the twenty
26:27
Speaker 1: first going to McDonald's and a drive in movie screening
26:30
Speaker 1: of The Hunchback of Notre Dame together in order to
26:33
Speaker 1: celebrate the last day of school for their son. Frank's
26:36
Speaker 1: parents were also visiting the condo and could pretty much
26:39
Speaker 1: account for their whereabouts for the rest of the weekend.
26:42
Speaker 1: On Sunday, June the twenty third, one of Karina's friends
26:44
Speaker 1: called Frank to ask if he knew where Krena was,
26:47
Speaker 1: as no one had heard from her for a day
26:49
Speaker 1: and a half. Even though Karina was not scheduled to
26:52
Speaker 1: return to his condo until Sunday evening, Frank stopped by
26:56
Speaker 1: his loft in order to see if she was there.
26:58
Speaker 1: When he could not find Kreana, Frank called the police
27:01
Speaker 1: in order to report her missing, unaware that Karina's body
27:04
Speaker 1: had already been found in the dumpster by that point.
27:07
Speaker 1: Bizarre incident would occur at around nine pm on the
27:10
Speaker 1: evening of June the twenty fourth, when a fire took
27:13
Speaker 1: place in a dumpster located about two hundred feet away
27:16
Speaker 1: from Frank's condominium complex. In another odd bit of timing,
27:20
Speaker 1: it turned out that in the evening of June the
27:21
Speaker 1: twenty third, Frank had visited Dover's Transfer and recycling station
27:26
Speaker 1: in order to get a permit to dump garbage there.
27:28
Speaker 1: Police performed a search of this transfer station with cadaver
27:32
Speaker 1: sniffing dogs, but didn't find any evidence. While burnt clothing
27:36
Speaker 1: and other items were recovered from the dumpster. They turned
27:39
Speaker 1: out to have no connection to Karina's case. Even though
27:42
Speaker 1: Susan told the media that both she and her husband
27:45
Speaker 1: had been cleared as suspects, law enforcement never publicly confirmed
27:49
Speaker 1: or denied this. The couple eventually decided to stop speaking
27:52
Speaker 1: to the police and the media and directed all questioning
27:55
Speaker 1: to their attorney.
27:57
Speaker 3: I can see this both ways.
27:59
Speaker 4: I can see this idea of a family who is
28:01
Speaker 4: worried about her. Frank goes and does exactly what friends
28:04
Speaker 4: ask him to do to check on her. He reports
28:06
Speaker 4: her missing, which draws attention to his home. So we
28:10
Speaker 4: have recently rented a large dumpster and gotten rid of things.
28:14
Speaker 4: We've hauled goodies down to a dump site. We've even
28:17
Speaker 4: done local burns, like that's the thing out in the country, right,
28:20
Speaker 4: that you can do burns in a burn pit and
28:23
Speaker 4: get rid of big old trash. So are those things
28:27
Speaker 4: oddly timed?
28:28
Speaker 1: Yes?
28:30
Speaker 4: Is it normal for the police to start to get
28:32
Speaker 4: frustrated with someone who quote refuses to talk to them
28:35
Speaker 4: or wants to kind of back away from the case. Yes,
28:37
Speaker 4: you can get a lot of frustration. So the fact
28:40
Speaker 4: that they didn't just say, oh yeah, they're cleared. Maybe
28:43
Speaker 4: there's a tension there even if it's not that their
28:45
Speaker 4: main suspects right that there's just a frustration of you
28:48
Speaker 4: made it harder for us to do our job. Even
28:51
Speaker 4: though the couple could have also been grieving somebody who
28:55
Speaker 4: was part of their family. This is someone they trusted
28:57
Speaker 4: with their kids usually in all Paris, spending you know,
29:01
Speaker 4: immense amount of time with you socially, emotionally at they're
29:06
Speaker 4: part of your family. And so could they also just
29:08
Speaker 4: be grieving and finally get fed up and say that's enough.
29:12
Speaker 1: That would make sense because she had been living there
29:14
Speaker 1: for a while. I mean, we have contradictory accounts. Frank
29:17
Speaker 1: and Susan said that Karina was happy, she never made
29:20
Speaker 1: any complaints, whereas Krena and her letters was implying that
29:24
Speaker 1: she was unhappy, though she never specifically said it was
29:27
Speaker 1: because of the family or because they did anything bad
29:29
Speaker 1: to me. And I know if you look at online
29:32
Speaker 1: discussions about this case, there has been suspicion about the
29:34
Speaker 1: fact that Karina lived in this loft on the weekends
29:37
Speaker 1: that belonged to Frank, and they wondered could Frank and
29:40
Speaker 1: Karan have been doing something on the side having some
29:43
Speaker 1: sort of affair, even if he had nothing to do
29:45
Speaker 1: with her murder, and that could provide a reason why
29:48
Speaker 1: he just didn't want to speak to the media or
29:49
Speaker 1: the police and just wanted to keep his family out
29:52
Speaker 1: of the spotlight.
29:53
Speaker 2: Or it could be I'm not suggesting that this is
29:56
Speaker 2: based in fact, but the potential that he was like
29:59
Speaker 2: so generous to share this loft with her because he
30:03
Speaker 2: planned to predate on her in some type of a way,
30:06
Speaker 2: and that was the horrible thing that happened. I mean,
30:08
Speaker 2: we were never going to know what that is unless
30:11
Speaker 2: somebody comes forward and says, oh, I know what this is.
30:15
Speaker 2: She told me, or I'm the person that did it
30:17
Speaker 2: to her. I mean, we don't know. But for her
30:20
Speaker 2: to say that something really terrible happened, it's hard not
30:23
Speaker 2: to think that there's a potential that it could be
30:26
Speaker 2: tied to the mail in the home.
30:27
Speaker 4: Who is frank absolutely, and also how old is she twenty? Okay,
30:33
Speaker 4: So think about a twenty year old who's in another country,
30:36
Speaker 4: who is with a family that she really had never met.
30:39
Speaker 4: There hadn't been a baseline of wages and things discussed
30:42
Speaker 4: and all of that. Right, there's no contract and so
30:45
Speaker 4: as a twenty year old, right, how many twenty year
30:48
Speaker 4: olds love having to work all the time, love having
30:52
Speaker 4: to deal with a bunch of kids that aren't being
30:54
Speaker 4: away from their family, maybe not making friends the way
30:58
Speaker 4: they thought that they would.
30:59
Speaker 1: I could all.
31:00
Speaker 4: Also see a letter from a twenty year old being
31:02
Speaker 4: pretty like distraught or frustrated more just with like the
31:06
Speaker 4: responsibility and the life that she signed up for and
31:09
Speaker 4: then got here and went ooh, that's not actually what
31:12
Speaker 4: I thought I was signing up for. Now, when you
31:15
Speaker 4: say something really bad happened, yes, that indicates to me
31:18
Speaker 4: more like taking advantage of assaulted those kinds of things,
31:22
Speaker 4: which is horrifying. But also the unhappiness could also be
31:26
Speaker 4: more of that young adult learning what it's like to
31:29
Speaker 4: have to actually be a responsible individual doing a job
31:34
Speaker 4: you didn't really know what you were signing up for,
31:35
Speaker 4: and realizing.
31:36
Speaker 3: Maybe this is not what I want to be doing.
31:39
Speaker 2: It's kind of a big job too, if you think
31:41
Speaker 2: about it. You're doing childcare, you're cooking a lot of meals,
31:45
Speaker 2: and you're doing the cleaning. You're kind of doing the
31:48
Speaker 2: job of like three people, or I guess one really
31:51
Speaker 2: busy mom. So I could see how she could be
31:54
Speaker 2: overwhelmed because who knows what she was doing in Sweden
31:57
Speaker 2: in her own home, but likely not this much work.
32:01
Speaker 2: Investigators eventually identified two of the men who'd been seen
32:05
Speaker 2: speaking to Karina after she left the Zanza Our nightclub
32:08
Speaker 2: on the morning she disappeared. The man Karina had been
32:12
Speaker 2: singing and dancing within the alley was a thirty one
32:14
Speaker 2: year old, unhoused panhandler named Juan Polo. Polo had an
32:18
Speaker 2: extensive criminal record, which included allegations that he once participated
32:23
Speaker 2: in a gang right. In fact, in April of nineteen
32:26
Speaker 2: ninety five, an ex girlfriend of Polo's named Evelyn Alvarez
32:30
Speaker 2: was found dead next to a dumpster behind a bowling
32:33
Speaker 2: alley in the town of Lakeville, located over forty miles
32:36
Speaker 2: south of Boston. She'd been strangled and beaten and died
32:39
Speaker 2: of bluntfor's trauma to the head, and while Polo was
32:43
Speaker 2: questioned in relation to the case, he was ruled out
32:46
Speaker 2: since he had a strong alibi. Police also questioned Polo
32:49
Speaker 2: about Karina's murder, but no evidence could be found to
32:53
Speaker 2: implicate him. The man scene speaking to Karina in the
32:56
Speaker 2: club surveillance footage was identified as forty nine year old
33:00
Speaker 2: called Herb Witten, who lived in the nearby town of Andover.
33:04
Speaker 2: Witten was known for being a colorful character who often
33:07
Speaker 2: traveled to Boston with his one hundred and twenty pound
33:09
Speaker 2: Great Pyrenees dog. He would dress both himself and his
33:13
Speaker 2: dog in Superman costumes and stand outside nightclubs in order
33:17
Speaker 2: to attract attention and strike up conversations with women. At
33:21
Speaker 2: the time, Witten was unemployed and had a history of
33:23
Speaker 2: struggles with depression and mental illness. In fact, one month
33:27
Speaker 2: before Karina's murder, his sister filed a restraining order against
33:31
Speaker 2: him after he kicked her in the foot during an argument.
33:34
Speaker 2: After Witten was identified as the man on the surveillance footage,
33:38
Speaker 2: his attorney intervened to prevent him from being formally questioned
33:41
Speaker 2: by police, as he felt that this might exacerbate his
33:44
Speaker 2: mental health issues. Witten did seem to have an alibi,
33:48
Speaker 2: as shortly after his encounter with Karina, he was pulled
33:51
Speaker 2: over by police while driving home to Andover and received
33:54
Speaker 2: a speeding ticket. However, on January ninth, nineteen ninety seven,
33:58
Speaker 2: Witten's body was found inside the bathroom of his residence
34:02
Speaker 2: after he took his own life by slitting his throat.
34:05
Speaker 2: Even though Witten had never been identified as a suspect
34:08
Speaker 2: or person of interest in Karina's case, his mental health
34:12
Speaker 2: was already in a fragile state because his own father
34:14
Speaker 2: had passed away. Witten's attorney believed that being associated with
34:18
Speaker 2: a murder investigation might have been the breaking point which
34:21
Speaker 2: caused him to become suicidal.
34:24
Speaker 4: And think about the precision and almost calmness and accuracy
34:27
Speaker 4: it would take to complete the act that was committed
34:31
Speaker 4: against Karina's body. Would it be somebody who might be
34:35
Speaker 4: experiencing a lot of mental health issues and be distraught
34:38
Speaker 4: in those kinds of things I'm wondering. I mean, yes,
34:41
Speaker 4: he's dressing up in a superman costume and dressing his
34:44
Speaker 4: dog up. I don't know that that would have been
34:47
Speaker 4: enough to make Karina feel comfortable. I almost think it
34:50
Speaker 4: would make her feel awkward and uncomfortable. Like as silly
34:52
Speaker 4: as it would be at first, I don't think that
34:54
Speaker 4: would be the person she'd trust to get in the
34:56
Speaker 4: car with. She said she was going to go to
34:58
Speaker 4: an after party with an old I don't know that
35:01
Speaker 4: a superman with his Superman dog would be the one
35:05
Speaker 4: that she'd run back in and be like the guys,
35:07
Speaker 4: they're capes, you know, like we're going, I'm getting I'm
35:09
Speaker 4: a wonder woman. I just don't see that being it.
35:12
Speaker 4: I'd think it would need to be someone who was
35:14
Speaker 4: very cunning, that was very sharp, that was, you know,
35:18
Speaker 4: trying to manipulate her, whereas this man seems to be
35:21
Speaker 4: someone who's basically really lonely and might really be struggling
35:25
Speaker 4: mental health wise. Is he going to have the precision
35:28
Speaker 4: and the accuracy to do what was done to her?
35:31
Speaker 2: I would also like to know if he was and
35:34
Speaker 2: I'm not asking in a funny way, but like seriously,
35:36
Speaker 2: if he was ever successful at getting dates or having
35:41
Speaker 2: women respond to him in a favorable way dressed to
35:44
Speaker 2: Superman with his dog.
35:46
Speaker 1: Well, I know women can't resist men with dogs sometimes,
35:49
Speaker 1: and I'm sure that even if they were an attracted
35:51
Speaker 1: with and they see like one hundred and twenty pound
35:52
Speaker 1: dog in a Superman costume, they're probably going to go
35:55
Speaker 1: over and say ah and strike up a conversation.
35:58
Speaker 2: King. Talking's one thing, though, right, but it's a whole
36:01
Speaker 2: other thing to on a date.
36:02
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, right, right?
36:03
Speaker 4: I think it would be something that it would be
36:05
Speaker 4: charming and funny and silly. And then I wonder what
36:08
Speaker 4: extent of his mental health issues were present when you
36:10
Speaker 4: would start talking to him. But I mean a lot
36:13
Speaker 4: of people I think would go up and have the brief,
36:15
Speaker 4: you know, quick talk with him and like, oh cute dog.
36:18
Speaker 3: Can I pet your dog? Oh yeah, chat chat, chat
36:20
Speaker 3: in and leave.
36:21
Speaker 4: But I'm wondering, like we said, would it be enough
36:23
Speaker 4: to get someone to feel confident to actually go to another.
36:26
Speaker 3: Location with you? I think it would be a little
36:28
Speaker 3: off putting.
36:29
Speaker 2: I agree, Like I if at that age, like the Karina was,
36:33
Speaker 2: I can picture myself and if a guy was in
36:36
Speaker 2: a Superman costume and he had his dog dressed like that,
36:38
Speaker 2: would I talk to him outside a club, make conversation
36:41
Speaker 2: and pet the dog? Absolutely? Would I go on a
36:44
Speaker 2: date or get into a vehicle with him? No, there's
36:47
Speaker 2: no way.
36:50
Speaker 1: So Another individual who was looked at as a possible
36:52
Speaker 1: suspect was John McSweeney, an industrial music performer who went
36:56
Speaker 1: by the name John's Whiz and fronted a fairly popular
37:00
Speaker 1: industrial band called Sleep Chamber, who often put on controversial
37:03
Speaker 1: performances containing s and M and bond routines. Zowiz popped
37:08
Speaker 1: up on the radar because he lived a few blocks
37:10
Speaker 1: away from the dumpster where Karina's body was found and
37:12
Speaker 1: was also struggling with a heroin addiction at that time.
37:16
Speaker 1: Shortly before the murder took place, Zuwiz threw a party
37:19
Speaker 1: at his apartment in which he showed off some ritualistic
37:22
Speaker 1: artwork he owned, as well as a collection of human
37:24
Speaker 1: and animal bones. After the discovery of Karina's body, the
37:28
Speaker 1: mother of one of the guests who attended the party
37:30
Speaker 1: became concerned enough to contact the police. Even though Zowiz
37:34
Speaker 1: was questioned, no evidence could be found to link him
37:37
Speaker 1: to the crime. On December eighth, nineteen ninety six, Gregory Hummel,
37:42
Speaker 1: a thirty four year old real estate broker from Brookline,
37:45
Speaker 1: was arrested for attacking a twenty four year old woman
37:47
Speaker 1: he had picked up at the Zanzibar nightclub. After offering
37:51
Speaker 1: her a ride home, Humble drove the woman to an
37:53
Speaker 1: apartment he kept in the Roxbury neighborhood, where he proceeded
37:56
Speaker 1: to punch her in the face and attempted to sexually
37:58
Speaker 1: assault her. The woman managed to grab Hummel's mobile phone
38:02
Speaker 1: and locked herself inside the bathroom in order to call
38:04
Speaker 1: the police, and Hummel was subsequently arrested. It turned out
38:08
Speaker 1: that Hummel had a history of drunk driving and allegations
38:11
Speaker 1: of violence towards women, and given that he had met
38:14
Speaker 1: this particular victim at Zanzibar, investigators looked at him as
38:17
Speaker 1: a potential suspect in Karina's case. When he went on
38:21
Speaker 1: trial in nineteen ninety eight, Hummel was found guilty of
38:24
Speaker 1: his attack on the woman and received a one year
38:26
Speaker 1: prison sentence, but no evidence could be found to link
38:29
Speaker 1: him to the murder. On May the sixteenth, nineteen ninety nine,
38:32
Speaker 1: a similar crime took place in Hollywood, Florida, when a
38:36
Speaker 1: thirty four year old sex worker named Delia Lorna Mendez
38:39
Speaker 1: was found inside a dumpster in the parking lot of
38:41
Speaker 1: a pet supermarket. Delia's body had been dismembered and sliced
38:46
Speaker 1: completely in half at the waist, though unlike Karina's case,
38:49
Speaker 1: the lower half of Delia's body was also found in
38:52
Speaker 1: the dumpster. Investigators looked into possible connections between the two crimes,
38:57
Speaker 1: but ultimately concluded that they were likely not related. Though
39:00
Speaker 1: Delia's murder continues to remain unsolved. It sounds like there
39:04
Speaker 1: have been no further developments in the investigation during these
39:07
Speaker 1: past two decades, so there's still no answers about who
39:10
Speaker 1: was actually responsible for the murder of Karna Holmer. So
39:14
Speaker 1: I guess you could say the path went Chile, Okay.
39:18
Speaker 3: So a couple of questions.
39:19
Speaker 4: One, it's hard to actually rule out a connection in
39:22
Speaker 4: a case when you don't know the perpetrator in either right, Yes,
39:26
Speaker 4: Boston and you know when you get down to Hollywood, Florida,
39:30
Speaker 4: those are two very far away places. But we've seen
39:34
Speaker 4: killers that kill in Florida and then kill in Washington State.
39:38
Speaker 4: So Ted Bundy made a cross country you know, trek
39:40
Speaker 4: of his killings, So what's to say somebody couldn't have
39:44
Speaker 4: gone from Boston down to Hollywood, Florida. But also what's
39:48
Speaker 4: interesting is that I think it was very purposeful that
39:50
Speaker 4: her lower half was not included. There was likely sexual
39:53
Speaker 4: abuse that occurred, and so to remove the lower half
39:57
Speaker 4: of her body and to then destroy it in another
39:59
Speaker 4: way or discard it somewhere else, I think is an
40:04
Speaker 4: important fact here. And then in the Hollywood case, you
40:06
Speaker 4: do have both pieces found together. Both parts of her
40:09
Speaker 4: body are found together. Now, also, when we talk about
40:14
Speaker 4: that first man who is seen at that bar assaulting
40:17
Speaker 4: another woman and convicted of that, do we know what
40:20
Speaker 4: kind of car he drove?
40:22
Speaker 1: They don't specifically say that, but I have to think
40:25
Speaker 1: that if he was driving Oh, I got to look
40:28
Speaker 1: up what's the name of the first.
40:29
Speaker 3: The Mitsubishi Amidspeci.
40:30
Speaker 1: I have to think that if the Humble was driving
40:32
Speaker 1: amid Subishi, they probably would have mentioned that and made
40:35
Speaker 1: him extra suspicious. So I'm guessing that it wasn't a match.
40:38
Speaker 4: Okay, because that was my first thought. I thought, is
40:40
Speaker 4: it a Midsubishi, Because then I'm gonna get really interested.
40:43
Speaker 4: Remember too, now that that bar is the last time
40:47
Speaker 4: we've seen a bisected woman. Now, anytime somebody's going to
40:51
Speaker 4: be heard at that bar, there has to be that suspicion, like,
40:54
Speaker 4: is it someone who's lurking around this same location? There
40:57
Speaker 4: is a chance that there's absolutely no relationship.
40:59
Speaker 2: What's so, However, with Hummel, it feels like he's a
41:02
Speaker 2: little bit hamhanded to have been so precise to do
41:07
Speaker 2: something like this because Karina didn't have contusions or abrasions
41:12
Speaker 2: on her face, it would have indicated that she'd been
41:14
Speaker 2: punched in the face and had no defensive wounds.
41:17
Speaker 1: Correct, that is correct. Yeah, I mean they only had
41:20
Speaker 1: one half of her body, but as far as I
41:22
Speaker 1: can anyone can tell she didn't have any defensive wounds
41:25
Speaker 1: on her upper torso.
41:27
Speaker 2: And just to like what Ashley said, I feel like
41:29
Speaker 2: with the Black Dahlia there had to have been like
41:31
Speaker 2: the element of wanting those people who discovered her to
41:35
Speaker 2: be in shock seeing this bisected body, whereas with Katrina
41:40
Speaker 2: it feels like they're trying to cover up evidence.
41:44
Speaker 1: So, like I mentioned in the intro, this case has
41:46
Speaker 1: often been compared to the Black Dolia murder, which took
41:48
Speaker 1: place in Los Angeles in nineteen forty seven. And the
41:51
Speaker 1: ironic thing is that the victim, Elizabeth Short, originally hailed
41:55
Speaker 1: from Boston, and to make another parallel to Karina Holmer's case,
41:59
Speaker 1: both these victor were murdered after leaving their hometowns to
42:02
Speaker 1: travel to a faraway location. But of course, given the
42:05
Speaker 1: notoriety of the Black Dolly murder, you have to wonder
42:08
Speaker 1: why Karina Holmer's story is not more well known. I mean,
42:12
Speaker 1: it was a pretty big deal in the Boston media
42:14
Speaker 1: back when it happened in nineteen ninety six, and has
42:16
Speaker 1: received fairly consistent coverage since then, but I wouldn't say
42:20
Speaker 1: it has full mainstream recognition. In a morbid turn of events,
42:24
Speaker 1: the case did actually get referenced on a two thousand
42:27
Speaker 1: and four episode of Jeopardy, where the clue was Boston
42:30
Speaker 1: cops were baffled by the murder of Karna Holmer, a
42:33
Speaker 1: Swede working as this French name type of domestic and
42:36
Speaker 1: the correct response was what is an au pair? Obviously,
42:40
Speaker 1: one of the main reasons the Elizabeth Short and Karna
42:43
Speaker 1: Holmer murders stand out is that both victims literally had
42:46
Speaker 1: their body sliced in half at the waist. The whole
42:49
Speaker 1: thing was done with such precision that you had to
42:52
Speaker 1: wonder if the killer was a medical professional or at
42:54
Speaker 1: extensive knowledge of human anatomy, and of course you get
42:58
Speaker 1: the impression that this might not have been their own crime.
43:01
Speaker 1: But a key difference between the two cases is that
43:04
Speaker 1: both halves of Elizabeth Short's body were left right out
43:06
Speaker 1: in the open for the police to find, whereas Krina
43:09
Speaker 1: Holmer's upper half was found inside a trash bag. And
43:12
Speaker 1: a dumpster, and her lower half has still not been
43:14
Speaker 1: found to this day. When you think about it, it
43:17
Speaker 1: might be blind luck that Karina's torso has found at all,
43:20
Speaker 1: as it was uncovered when a homeless man accidentally cut
43:23
Speaker 1: open the trash bag while searching the dumpster. If this
43:26
Speaker 1: hadn't happened, the dumpster might have been picked up and
43:29
Speaker 1: Karna's torso taken to a landfill, and she would still
43:32
Speaker 1: be a missing person to this day. This is why
43:35
Speaker 1: I think it's possible that the lower half of Karna's
43:37
Speaker 1: body may have been disposed of in an entirely different
43:40
Speaker 1: dumpster and picked up without anybody noticing. Theoretically, Krana's killer
43:45
Speaker 1: may not have intended for anyone to ever find out
43:48
Speaker 1: what happened to her. I just mentioned that when Delia
43:51
Speaker 1: Lorna Mendez's dismembered body was discovered in Florida three years later,
43:55
Speaker 1: there was instant speculation that the crimes might be related.
43:59
Speaker 1: Since slicing some somel one's body in half at the
44:01
Speaker 1: waist is still a rare method of murder, but putting
44:04
Speaker 1: aside the geographical distance of fifteen hundred miles, there are
44:07
Speaker 1: enough dissimilarities between the two cases to feel they are
44:11
Speaker 1: not connected. In addition to both halves of Delia's body
44:14
Speaker 1: being found together inside the dumpster, the crime seemed a
44:17
Speaker 1: lot more disorganized, as her killer did not go through
44:20
Speaker 1: the trouble of cleaning her body or placing it inside
44:23
Speaker 1: a trash bag. Karina's murder definitely seemed a lot more
44:26
Speaker 1: calculated and meticulous, and since the lower half of her
44:29
Speaker 1: body was never found, we have no idea if she
44:32
Speaker 1: was sexually assaulted before she was killed, and does not
44:35
Speaker 1: sound like there is any available DNA evidence.
44:39
Speaker 4: I think you have to step back and look at this.
44:41
Speaker 4: I absolutely agree with what we kind of mentioned at
44:43
Speaker 4: the beginning, and you just referenced again this person had
44:46
Speaker 4: to have some knowledge of the human body.
44:48
Speaker 3: I also think they.
44:49
Speaker 4: Had to have some knowledge of what it is to
44:53
Speaker 4: complete a crime of this magnitude, because it was very
44:56
Speaker 4: sophisticatedly done. And so when you look at the procedure itself,
45:02
Speaker 4: when you look at the sophistication, when you look at
45:05
Speaker 4: the fact that to this day we still don't have
45:07
Speaker 4: an answer, I think this is someone who's killed before.
45:10
Speaker 4: I think that it's somebody who has like I didn't
45:12
Speaker 4: even think about the hunter's background, like Jules mentioned, but
45:15
Speaker 4: medical butcher hunter, those kinds of things that know exactly
45:19
Speaker 4: how you could actually cut through a spinal cord and
45:23
Speaker 4: the spinal bone and then you wouldn't have any other
45:26
Speaker 4: damage to the body. That is knowledge, that's not just happenstance.
45:30
Speaker 4: And you know convenience right that they knew what they
45:33
Speaker 4: were doing. And again, like you said, I think that
45:35
Speaker 4: lower half missing shows that there was something else, not
45:38
Speaker 4: just that act, but a sexual component where they were
45:43
Speaker 4: trying to hide exactly what they did.
45:44
Speaker 3: That DNA evidence.
45:46
Speaker 4: And so I'm intrigued by those two men who supposedly
45:50
Speaker 4: fought off somebody and said you'll get away, almost aggressive,
45:53
Speaker 4: as if they knew they had a vulnerable target and
45:55
Speaker 4: they were trying to get her away. Remember she had
45:58
Speaker 4: said that she was going to go with an older man.
46:01
Speaker 4: What if she had only met one, or what if
46:03
Speaker 4: her goal was I'm only going with this one. But
46:06
Speaker 4: she knew there were two, and she willingly.
46:09
Speaker 3: Got in that car and everything went downhill.
46:11
Speaker 4: Like we said that those two up there anti they
46:14
Speaker 4: kept getting more aggressive because each other was egging the
46:17
Speaker 4: other on. I think there's a real possibility to that angle.
46:21
Speaker 1: That does make sense. And the whole idea of them
46:23
Speaker 1: getting rid of the lower half of her body to
46:25
Speaker 1: get rid of DNA evidence or signs of sexual assault
46:29
Speaker 1: could explain why there haven't been any other crimes like
46:31
Speaker 1: this in the Boston area because you're instantly thinking, oh,
46:34
Speaker 1: this is a serial killer who's got a calling card.
46:37
Speaker 1: He's cutting his victims in half because he wants to
46:40
Speaker 1: be well known. But if it was just done for
46:42
Speaker 1: the purpose of destroying evidence and he didn't really enjoy
46:45
Speaker 1: the act of slicing your and half, that could explain,
46:48
Speaker 1: like why there have been no other victims just like
46:50
Speaker 1: this in the past thirty years.
46:53
Speaker 2: Question for you guys, this is a little bit off topic,
46:55
Speaker 2: but it's on the topic of the Black Dahlia. Do
46:58
Speaker 2: either of you remember the name of the guy that's
47:00
Speaker 2: the prime suspect that there was like the whole podcast.
47:03
Speaker 1: About uh George Hodell.
47:05
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, Didn't he go and live like in Asia
47:09
Speaker 2: or Southeast Asia and another body ended up in a
47:12
Speaker 2: similar way?
47:13
Speaker 1: I can't remember, but I do know that people have
47:16
Speaker 1: said about that podcast like his son is convinced that
47:20
Speaker 1: his father is the Black Dolia killer, and he does
47:22
Speaker 1: make a convincing case for it, but he also say
47:24
Speaker 1: that he loses credibility because he has also tried to
47:27
Speaker 1: accuse his father of being the Zodiac Killer and being
47:29
Speaker 1: responsible for virtually every unsolved crime on the West Coast
47:33
Speaker 1: during that time period. But yeah, if that story is
47:36
Speaker 1: true about him like going to Asia and another body
47:39
Speaker 1: being found in that fashion, then that is a convincing
47:41
Speaker 1: case for him being the Dalia killer.
47:43
Speaker 2: I just couldn't remember if that detail was actually tied
47:47
Speaker 2: to this case or if it was like another case,
47:50
Speaker 2: but it just seems like it must have been tied
47:52
Speaker 2: to this one. But I just searched it on AI
47:54
Speaker 2: and I couldn't find any case in like Southeast Asia
47:57
Speaker 2: or Asia that would have been in that same time
47:59
Speaker 2: period that seems to match. But if it was this case,
48:03
Speaker 2: and I remember hearing it on the podcast and thinking like, WHOA,
48:07
Speaker 2: that's weird, Like it's really odd to bisect a body
48:10
Speaker 2: and then to have it happen again. But maybe I'm
48:13
Speaker 2: just incorrectly remembering.
48:16
Speaker 1: So I think that about brings an end to Part one.
48:18
Speaker 1: Join us next week as we present part two of
48:20
Speaker 1: our series about the murder of Katrina Holmer.
48:24
Speaker 5: Robin, do you want to tell us a little bit
48:25
Speaker 5: about the Trail Went Cold Patreon?
48:27
Speaker 1: Yes, The Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three
48:30
Speaker 1: years now, and we offer these standard bonus features like
48:34
Speaker 1: early ad free episodes, and I also send out stickers
48:37
Speaker 1: and sign thank you cards to anyone who signs up
48:40
Speaker 1: with us on Patreon. If you join our five dollars
48:43
Speaker 1: tier tier two, we also offer monthly bonus episodes in
48:47
Speaker 1: which I talk about cases which are not featured on
48:50
Speaker 1: the Trail Went Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive to Patreon,
48:54
Speaker 1: and if you join our highest tier tier three, the
48:56
Speaker 1: ten dollars tier. One of the features we offer is
48:59
Speaker 1: a audio commentary track over classic episodes of Unsolved Mysteries,
49:04
Speaker 1: where you can download an audio file and then boot
49:07
Speaker 1: up the original Unsaved Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or
49:10
Speaker 1: YouTube and play it with my audio commentary playing in
49:13
Speaker 1: the background, where I just provide trivia and factoids about
49:16
Speaker 1: the cases featured in this episode. And incidentally, the very
49:20
Speaker 1: first episode that I did a commentary track over was
49:23
Speaker 1: the episode featuring this case. So if you want to
49:26
Speaker 1: download a commentary track in which I make more smart
49:28
Speaker 1: ass remarks about Jewel Kaylor then be sure to join
49:31
Speaker 1: Tier three.
49:32
Speaker 5: So I want to let you know a little bit
49:34
Speaker 5: about the Jules and n Ashy patreons.
49:36
Speaker 6: So there's early ad free episodes of The Path Went Chili.
49:39
Speaker 6: We've got our Path Went Chili mini's, which are always
49:42
Speaker 6: over an hour, so they're not very mini, but they're
49:44
Speaker 6: just too short to turn into a series, and we're
49:47
Speaker 6: really enjoying doing those, so we hope you'll check out
49:49
Speaker 6: those patreons.
49:50
Speaker 5: We'll link them in the show notes.
49:52
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49:54
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50:00
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50:03
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50:06
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50:11
Speaker 5: Music by Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy