Latest / The Photography & Video Show Podcast / 2: AI promptography with Boris Eldagsen, AI photography workflows with Hannah Rooke, vlogging camera frenzy

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2: AI promptography with Boris Eldagsen, AI photography workflows with Hannah Rooke, vlogging camera frenzy · The Photography & Video Show Podcast

• 0:10
  David McClelland: Hello and welcome to the Photography and Video Show podcast, episode number two for July 2023.
• 0:17
  David McClelland: My name's David McClelland, and once again we're here to splash around what's been making waves in the world of photo and video and speak with the professionals right in at the deep end.
• 0:27
  David McClelland: Now I should say thank you so much for all of your kind words and comments and reviews and things following our first episode.
• 0:35
  David McClelland: We were blown away by the response.
• 0:38
  David McClelland: And well, not that I've pour over the podcast stats and charts or anything like that, but hello to all of you who listen in Iceland, where we were number two in your charts last month.
• 0:49
  David McClelland: I think that's the country, by the way, not the shop.
• 0:52
  David McClelland: If you didn't hear our opening episode, our interview with Hugo Bernand and chat with James, with Hugo, we were talking about how he takes portraits of actual royalty, including the official Coronation Day portraits of King Charles III.
• 1:06
  David McClelland: If you didn't listen to that, then well, do listen in wherever you get your podcasts.
• 1:11
  David McClelland: Now it seems as though you can't so much as make a trip to the corner shop without getting pulled into a conversation about artificial intelligence at the moment.
• 1:19
  David McClelland: And this month's show, not gonna lie, it is fairly AI heavy, so brace yourselves.
• 1:24
  David McClelland: Later on, we'll hear from photographer, or should that be promptographer Boris L.
• 1:29
  David McClelland: Dagson, about that Sony World Photography Award-winning image that captured so much attention earlier in the year.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: It started as a simple test.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: So in autumn-winter, when the open calls for photocompetition started, I had a look at their guidelines.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: I just was curious to know if they have changed regulations because of AI image generators.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: If they had taken into account that somebody could hand in AI-generated images.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: And Sony didn't change it, so I just applied.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: I just wanted to see how far I can get.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: I had no further plan.
• 2:07
  David McClelland: But first, to chat through this month's news, I'm joined by Digital Camera World's unofficial AI correspondent Hannah Rook.
• 2:14
  David McClelland: Hello, Hannah.
• 2:15
  David McClelland: Welcome to the podcast.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: How are you doing?
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: You alright?
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm really good, thank you.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just recovered from Glastonbury, where I was actually shooting a few sets, which was really, really fun to take part in one of the world's biggest festivals.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that's kind of how my career and journey into photography started, funnily enough.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: So it was really, really fun to do that.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: And now back at work, enjoying uh the AI content that, like you said, I pretty much write about daily.
• 2:43
  David McClelland: Talk to me about what it's like to work at Glastonbury.
• 2:46
  David McClelland: I'm not gonna lie, I've never been to Glastonbury.
• 2:48
  David McClelland: I watch it every year on the TV and I watch Guns N' Roses on the Saturday night, and like most other people I think in the UK, I did tune in to wave goodbye to Elton John on the Sunday night.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't actually shoot any of the big headliners.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: I shot some friends, local artists at Bristol.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: They didn't really give me briefs as such, they just want me to take good photos off their sets.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: I did, however, get a mini tour of backstage of the pyramid stage.
• 3:14
  David McClelland: Oh wow.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: Which was a pretty impressive sight.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: There were cameras, cables, microphones everywhere, people running around, trucks broadcasting different bits and just to see what goes on behind the scenes.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you watch it on TV and it it's a spectacle that you can enjoy, but you kind of forget that there are hundreds of people behind the scenes making sure that they get the right shots.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's getting to see that was really, really interesting.
• 3:42
  David McClelland: My word, my word.
• 3:43
  David McClelland: Back to the back to the day job.
• 3:45
  David McClelland: I called you unofficial AI correspondent at Digital Camera World.
• 3:50
  David McClelland: That that's a job title that I've given you, but that does cover a certainly a lot of what you've been writing about, it seems, over the last few months there.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, to be honest, I think that's probably the title that my editor would give me as well.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually really enjoy writing about it.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's an interesting move into a world that's advancing so incredibly quickly.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's given a lot of photographers time to reflect on how we use AI, what the repercussions of it is, what how it's going to change the industry moving forward.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, people like Boris Elderson are challenging photography competitions.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: But it's not just image creation that you can use AI in, it's things like photo editing, retouching.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: It just seems to be moving into every realm of our lives at the moment.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: So to be able to write about it, report on it, especially writing opinion pieces on it, which is something I find the most enjoyable, that's really exciting.
• 4:45
  David McClelland: And there's no shortage of opinions on on AI, particularly at the moment, while I think we're all still trying to find our feet and formulate our opinions on where it where it does and doesn't feel feel right.
• 4:58
  David McClelland: A lot of it I think is feeling at the moment.
• 5:00
  David McClelland: But I tell you what, let's press pause on the on the AI bit of the conversation because we've got lots of that coming up.
• 5:06
  David McClelland: Let's dip into this month into this month's news pond with some, well, perhaps some non-AI stories.
• 5:12
  David McClelland: Last month, James spoke about his mini safari with the Nikon Z8.
• 5:16
  David McClelland: And well, yes, it certainly has been selling faster than muddy music festival tickets.
• 5:20
  David McClelland: Hannah, I understand that there have been some bum notes for Nikon and its customers over the last few weeks.
• 5:27
  David McClelland: Where where have things not been striking the right chord?
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think the big one is sort of Nikon backtracking on perhaps some of the initial promises that they said in terms of features that they were going to include with their ZA.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: One of them being auto capture, which is a feature that's just been added to the Nikon Z9 firmware update, which basically means that you can apply parameters and the camera will automatically capture your subject depending on when they move into the frame, perhaps if they're smiling, which is obviously incredibly handy if you're you know you're working with a subject that's moving around a lot, or you want to be sure that you capture at the right moment.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: Originally they said that this is going to be something that's part of the Z8.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: Now they it seems that they have taken away that feature, they removed it from a video, they removed it from the press release.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of people are now questioning are they doing that because they realize that they have suddenly created such a good camera with the Z8 that perhaps people wouldn't then buy the Z9, which is meant to be their flagship camera.
• 6:28
  David McClelland: Yeah, so so by removing previously advertised features that people may have gone out and bought the Z8 because of, they are creating some potentially some differentiation between the the Z8, that the baby Z9, and the Z9 itself.
• 6:43
  David McClelland: I can understand why people would be uh worried about that, and it also sets quite a dangerous precedent, I think, as well.
• 6:49
  David McClelland: You know, in what when you are purchasing cameras, you're making decisions based upon the press materials, based upon the spec sheets, and if they subsequently get removed on the quiet, then that I think does stand the risk of breaking trust between a camera system manufacturer and the customer.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: Honestly, now the biggest difference that sets apart the Z8 and the Z9 is the size of it.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I wrote an article about this a couple of weeks ago, and personally from a photographer's perspective, and some especially as a photographer who travels, a photographer who shoots festivals, I wouldn't want to spend that extra money to buy a camera that has that that's a lot heavier, a lot bigger to hold when a camera like the Z8 pretty much has the same sensor, the same body stabilization, a lot of the same features.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I can understand a little bit why Nikon have removed a feature, but they should never have advertised it in the first place.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately, when we reached out for comment, they didn't actually reply, or at least yet they haven't responded.
• 7:51
  David McClelland: But that's not the only problem, as well.
• 7:52
  David McClelland: There seems to be some users who are having problems attaching some lenses to the camera as well, which is a very different kind of problem.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's not all cameras and it's not all lenses, it seems to just be a s a select few.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: Nick on have said that people can return lenses or they will repair them at no cost, but obviously, when you just spent four grand on a brand new camera, you expect to be able to attach a lens to it straight away with no problems.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: I guess it does make you question just whether perhaps because they focus so heavily this time on making sure that they have the units to stock so that people aren't waiting months for pre-orders, have they perhaps slightly rushed some of the manufacturing processes either with the lenses or the bodies?
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: So it's one of those situations where do you want to get a camera out so you can actually get hold of it when it's released, or do people be wanting to wait months to get a camera that does work completely perfectly when it arrives?
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's a really hard thing to balance.
• 8:51
  David McClelland: Right.
• 8:52
  David McClelland: Turns out summertime is peak time for releasing vlogging cameras, at least according to uh our main camera manufacturers.
• 9:00
  David McClelland: Sony released a vlogging camera, and then Sony released a vlogging camera.
• 9:06
  David McClelland: I'm not repeating myself, it appears as though Sony is two cameras from Sony.
• 9:11
  David McClelland: Meanwhile, Insta360 just released the thumbsize, really nifty looking Go3 action camera and uh Canon just back in mail a little bit earlier, but still in time for the summer.
• 9:22
  David McClelland: The PowerShot V10, which has got some cracking looking capabilities, an interesting looking camera as well.
• 9:29
  David McClelland: Hannah, what's what's what what is going on here?
• 9:31
  David McClelland: Is this action cam activity designed to capitalise on the summer holiday market?
• 9:37
  David McClelland: Is this something you tend to see on the camera calendar?
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's not something that I've seen ever before.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know whether they're trying to capitalise on necessarily the summer holiday market, but just the fact that influences, vlogging, social media, content creation, people making a lot of money from these avenues, people are sort of growing up now with life aspirations of becoming content creators and social media influencers.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: And they are perhaps looking for a system that is better than a phone but not as advanced as a full-spec mirrorless camera, for example, and you know, something like the cat the Canon PowerShot V10.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's small, it's pocket-sized, it's can it's got a built-in microphone that's considerably better than what you would get on your phone.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: Generally speaking, people are just looking for cameras that they can use on the move for run and gun style vlogging, videography that isn't going to cost the world and does exactly what they need it for.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because a lot of these systems now they're coming out so that you can shoot them in the correct format for uploading to social media.
• 10:48
  David McClelland: Back back in the olden days, I say olden days, older than two or three years ago, everything shot in that landscape mode automatically.
• 10:55
  David McClelland: And if you wanted to shoot portraits vertical video, then you were down to turning your camera sideways and all of the ergonomic challenges that come with that.
• 11:04
  David McClelland: But cameras that natively can shoot in the in the different aspect ratios.
• 11:09
  David McClelland: Obviously that's going to make vloggers' lives a lot easier.
• 11:12
  David McClelland: Anyone who's creating content for social first channels.
• 11:16
  David McClelland: Coming back to that Canon PowerShot V10, it's uh it's a quirky looking bit of kit.
• 11:21
  David McClelland: Yeah.
• 11:21
  David McClelland: What what would you what would you liken it to?
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'd probably liken it to an old school Sony Ericsson or a ring doorbell.
• 11:29
  David McClelland: Aha, right.
• 11:30
  David McClelland: Good reference.
• 11:31
  David McClelland: And again, it's coming in at that sort of price point, which is you know, 400, 400 and something pounds, which is if you are a content creator, professional content creator, this is the kind of ballpark that you'll be looking at.
• 11:45
  David McClelland: The other the other one I'd I really wanted to to draw attention to, which I think's trying to do something a little bit different, is the Insta360, the Go 3, which is this I I say it's thumb-sized, but it's it's magnetic, and you can attach it to pretty much anything that you want.
• 12:02
  David McClelland: And some of the shots that I've seen have really seem to make the most of that creativity.
• 12:07
  David McClelland: But it can all it can also be attached into this, what do they call it, the action pod that makes it look a lot more like an old school GoPro in many ways, and you've got the flip-up screen there.
• 12:19
  David McClelland: But this seems to be, I don't know what you think, but uh less of the it's just a vlogging camera.
• 12:25
  David McClelland: I hate that term vlogging.
• 12:27
  David McClelland: It's not only difficult to say, but it feels like it's about a term from ten years ago.
• 12:31
  David McClelland: So I kind of uh towards the content creator side.
• 12:34
  David McClelland: But it's not just about selfie shooting piece to cameras.
• 12:37
  David McClelland: The Insta360 Go3 feels much more in the realms of where the GoPros, the action cameras, might once have played.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think I would agree with you there.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's the kind of thing that you can imagine someone taking on a skiing holiday, attaching to you know, a walk like water sports, something that's much more rugged, not necessarily just for speaking to camera.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: It does still offer obviously like a lot of the same features as something like a GoPro, like the older INSA 360 models, offers 2.7k video, and that's actually a uh a point that's worth bringing up when we when we were saying about the difference between phones and people investing in perhaps a camera like this, or a camera like the PowerShot V10, is there is a massive difference in price between, say, the latest iPhone 14 Pro Max or how however much the iPhone 15 Pro Max is.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you're someone like me who is stuck in the dark ages with an iPhone 11, but you want to you want to build on your content creation, you want to get that quality without spending a lot of money, without upgrading your phone.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually for a lot of people a lot of people perhaps cheaper to invest in a new camera that's got dedicated that is for dedicated video rather than spending a lot of money on a phone just so that you can get you know decent quality pictures out of that.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think having the two separate things is quite important.
• 14:01
  David McClelland: These smartphones aren't coming down in price anytime soon.
• 14:04
  David McClelland: I don't know if we've plateaued on the camera quality that is achievable.
• 14:08
  David McClelland: There are some rumors that the iPhone 15, at least on the backside, might have one of these periscope cameras that that lies flat across the surface for a chunk of it and then gives you 10 times zoom or more than that.
• 14:21
  David McClelland: But again, that's that's only going to be, I think, on those higher-end phones.
• 14:25
  David McClelland: So when we're looking at this sort of price point, and again, this is the late 300, early 400 pounds for the for the Instance 360 Go 3, it could well be cheaper than getting yourself uh a new smartphone.
• 14:37
  David McClelland: And also, if you are doing the action stuff, do you want to attach a£1,000 smartphone onto the end of your canoe paddle or onto the end of your ski or something like that when you know these phones aren't as rugged as a dedicated rugged camera device like one of these action cams?
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and not only are they not as rugged, but people rely on them in different ways.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: People rely on them for communication, for posting to social media, and for scheduling to social media, for actually getting jobs, for accessing emails.
• 15:11
  unknown: Yeah.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot more things that you rely on your phone for.
• 15:13
  David McClelland: Okay, okay, probably a good point now to press pause on the news and dive into some of the AI conversation.
• 15:22
  David McClelland: Boris L.
• 15:23
  David McClelland: Dagson's image, The Electrician, captured attention earlier this year when it was announced as a category winner at the Sony World Photography Awards.
• 15:30
  David McClelland: The conversation and the controversy was, however, less about what the image portrayed and more about how it was made.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: I studied visual arts and philosophy with a teaching degree, and photography has always been the basis of what I was doing.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: I used photography not to depict what was in front of the camera, but to transform it into a timeless symbol of the human condition.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: Later I also worked with moving image, with installation, and yeah, how do I continue this?
• 16:10
  David McClelland: I know it's always, as we would say in in English, a a hospital pass to ask an artist to describe their own work, but I'm interested in the way that this philosophy tutoring training has played in your journey as an artist and it's manifesting itself now.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think the reason why I chose to study philosophy and the arts was a need to understand what this is all about.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, life and us humans, and I thought that I will get an answer in philosophy, and I didn't.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: I could only rephrase my questions and improve my questions.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: And what I do in the arts is sending postcards from that journey of me trying to understand myself, so it's an inner journey, and how this interacts with the world.
• 17:06
  David McClelland: So asking questions, sending postcards on your journey.
• 17:11
  David McClelland: I find that very interesting, and that does lead us into the electrician.
• 17:16
  David McClelland: Let's talk about this piece of work from a series that you call Pseudomnesia.
• 17:21
  David McClelland: Tell us about that.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: The title means translated, it's a fake memory.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's something that has never happened.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: If you convince yourself that ten years ago something specific happened and you talk about it over and over again, at some point you start to believe it really has happened.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I found this a very suitable name for a series that has a vintage look that looks like it's like nineteen forties, but it's not a photograph, it's not a time document, it's an AI generated image of whatever I want to appear on that picture.
• 17:58
  David McClelland: I'm looking at the image now, and like you say, it has this aged appearance.
• 18:04
  David McClelland: There are two women, one looking off into the distance, the other stood behind in a kind of embrace.
• 18:12
  David McClelland: It's clearly a powerful moment that you I was gonna say that that you are capturing, that that you have created here, and as a viewer, it creates an emotional response in me.
• 18:24
  David McClelland: I feel as though I'm peering in on a poignant moment between these two people.
• 18:31
  David McClelland: What's your process in creating this image?
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: I started with text prompt.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: I describe the image I would like to generate, and that can be very complex.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: I have identified over a dozen prompt elements, so you can be very, very specific and steer the generation of an image.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: Then in the process I improve certain parts that don't work yet with in painting.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: It means erasing parts of the image, using a new text prompt to describe what you would like to have as a replacement.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then you can also add additional frames on any side, which is called outpainting, and again you have to describe in a new text prompt what you would like to appear.
• 19:19
  David McClelland: And how long have you been using this process for?
• 19:22
  David McClelland: Because the generative AI tools that we see now have really risen in prominence, risen in profile over the last, let's say, twelve months or so since the public have had access to them.
• 19:34
  David McClelland: Is that the same sort of time frame that you've been experimenting with this kind of creativity?
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I've been doing it for a year.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: I was one of the first beta testers for DALI 2 in Germany when it was still like a waitlist only, and immediately just was pulled in.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: When you start, for many people it becomes a kind of addiction.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's a new way of producing images.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's fascinating.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you are in this kind of like God mode where you can use words to create things.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: And because I was using it very intensively and posted about it, I was visible in Germany and the first to ask for interviews, for presentations, for workshops.
• 20:16
  David McClelland: Now let's fast forward a little bit.
• 20:18
  David McClelland: You have this this image, the electrician, which as I described, I I found very engaging what when I've seen it.
• 20:24
  David McClelland: What happened with the World Photography Awards when you decided that you wanted to submit this piece of work, not a photograph, although the name of the competition is Photography Awards.
• 20:36
  David McClelland: Clearly there's a conflict there.
• 20:37
  David McClelland: But just tell us your side of the story.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: It started as a simple test.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: September, August, a lot of media reported about AI image generators.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: So in autumn, winter, when the open calls for photocompetition started, I had a look at their guidelines.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: I just was curious to know if they have changed regulations because of AI image generators.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: If they had taken into account that somebody could hand in AI generated images.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: And Sony didn't change it.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I just applied.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: I just wanted to see how far I can get.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: I had no further plan.
• 21:16
  David McClelland: Your intent then was to test, to probe, to ask a question.
• 21:21
  David McClelland: What happened next?
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: In mid-February, they contacted me to tell me that I was selected as the winner of the open competition creative category.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: And immediately I told them that it was AI generated, how I did it, and that they can disqualify me, or if they would like to continue that it's important to have a public talk about the relationship between photography and AI generated images.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I told them what I was doing in Germany and that something like this could easily be done via um public online soon.
• 21:59
  David McClelland: So this Point the winners of the various categories had not been made public.
• 22:04
  David McClelland: They hadn't been announced, but they were giving you advance notice that you had been a winner of the category.
• 22:11
  David McClelland: So at that point, when you informed the team there, they could have stepped back.
• 22:16
  David McClelland: They could have said, Ah, actually, sorry, we misunderstood this.
• 22:19
  David McClelland: We're going to take the award away from you because we don't feel as though, for example, it meets the terms of the competition or whatever.
• 22:27
  David McClelland: But they didn't do that.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: No, they just said, oh fine, you can keep it.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: And if you would like, you can come to the award ceremony.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: They didn't respond to my suggestion of having a public debate.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: And that was mid-February.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: So four weeks later, they sent out the press release.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I was waiting for the press release to be sent out and I thought maybe it's all in there.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: But it wasn't.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: And it turned out that the PR executive of Crio, who are the organizers of the event, was not informed that the image was AI generated.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: Immediately after they sent out the press release, they had been contacted by journalists asking, what about that image?
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: Is it AI generated or not?
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: And he sent me an email asking for more information to hand out to the press because they got so many press inquiries.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I sent them the information and in the evening I got a reply, a smiley and a thank you.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I could have thought that they had used my statement, but it turned out they didn't.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: Friends in the German press that were also writing to Creo and asked is it AI or not?
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: Got a generic reply.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: It was not my statement, and a generic reply was something like, Dear David, thank you for your email to quote our CEO, we support photography in its dynamic and creative forms, blah, thank you.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: AI was not even mentioned.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I realized that they don't want to talk about the fact that it's AI generated.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: And a second time they didn't respond to my suggestion to have a public discussion about this and it seemed like they wanted to keep it under the radar.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: So what to do?
• 24:21
  David McClelland: This is one of those rare times I think when a photography story lands on the front pages of major news websites and the image as a result became very broadly known outside of the usual photography circles.
• 24:34
  David McClelland: So why do you think they were keen to bury the story, or maybe if that's too strong, to not confront the question?
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, it's all speculation.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think they had not been working properly amongst the team, so the press officer was not informed that it was AI generated.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: I also don't think that Sony was informed.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like for Kryo, it's a business.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: They are running several awards, and I think they just didn't take it seriously.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: They had no idea what was really pressuring the photo community.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: For them, I was just like a nuisance.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: And their focus was to make a proper award ceremony and to possibly keep Sony happy.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: But what what happened next week after the press release is I sent them again an email saying, listen, you're getting emails from the media and photographers, I'm getting emails.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: You can't continue like this.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: And you need to do something.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I also said very, very clearly, you can use this for good.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you can be the first photocompetition that becomes aware of it, that takes it into account.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to be positive press for you.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Then they responded, it was the third time after me offering it, yeah, we can do a Q ⁇ A on our blog and publish it before the awards.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I agreed, of course, yeah, and got in contact with the lady who was responsible to do so the next day, and she said, I'm going to send you the questions soon, and it never happened.
• 26:13
  David McClelland: So going back to the statement that you made on the refusal of your prize at the ceremony in April, it said, I quote, I applied as a cheeky monkey to find out if the competitions are prepared for AI images to enter.
• 26:30
  David McClelland: They are not.
• 26:32
  David McClelland: Now, I can't comment on competitions as a whole, but evidently it seems from how you describe the process here with the World Photography Awards, the PR, the comms machines, the event organizers were not ready.
• 26:44
  David McClelland: They were not aligned on this occasion.
• 26:46
  David McClelland: And who knows what's happened behind the scenes there.
• 26:49
  David McClelland: But just going back to the bigger questions that you asked, Boris, is the photography community ready?
• 26:55
  David McClelland: Are we as an image-consuming public ready for AI images?
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think so.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like everybody was just surprised, shocked, and didn't know what to do, how to react.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: The technical development is so fast.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like since last August, it's a big bang accelerating constantly, 360 degrees.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: And that was also a motivation for me to do something that is disruptive to change this.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm very happy that it started a discussion that things are going to change.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think regulations have been changed of photocompetitions.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: People start to use a more conscious terminology not using AI photo anymore.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: Discuss if they can mix photography and AI generated images or promptography, how I call it, in the same event.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: There is an awareness now that was created.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think we have to reframe how we look at images.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: Images have been manipulated for century and today it was never so easy.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think our default way of looking at pictures that seem to be photography needs to be mistrust, yeah?
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: Assuming that the image is generated if it's not somehow proven that it's authentic and went through a certain kind of fact check.
• 28:28
  David McClelland: I want to ask about the response to your work so far, because I've heard you described as an activist, a mischief maker, you described yourself as a cheeky monkey.
• 28:40
  David McClelland: One of the criticisms has been that for the awards it was a distraction from the other winners.
• 28:48
  David McClelland: But how has the community responded to your work?
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: 95% of what I got as a response was overwhelmingly positive.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: And the discussion was enabled by the photo community.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: There are also like this 5% of responses.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: I got an email, a one-liner from I don't know where saying you are a terrifying person, giving no reason.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: I had a friend of mine telling me that what I was doing was basically doing PR for the Sony World Awards and making a competition more important than it actually is.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: That was his point of view.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: So you see it's always more complex.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:34
  David McClelland: So final question, Boris.
• 29:36
  David McClelland: What's next?
• 29:37
  David McClelland: And I want this to be a kind of two-pronged response, if you will.
• 29:41
  David McClelland: We've spoken about the acceleration of the capabilities of AI image generation tooling over the last twelve months, the proliferation of different tools that are available as well now.
• 29:53
  David McClelland: I'd love to understand where you think that's that's taking us next.
• 29:57
  David McClelland: And then in terms of what what's next for you, what do you plan to do next in terms of showing your work, in terms of the questions that you're asking like you've been asking over the last six months or so?
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: It feels today that what is happening in moving image generation is like image generation last year.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's going to speed up more and more.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: And anything that is digital can be generated with AI.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like my voice, my appearance, moving image, still image.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: Anything can be generated.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: That is the future.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: And with text prompts I can also generate objects and print it and generate sound and music and um it's not going to stop.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: It continues.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm continuing to follow this experiment and then pass it on in lectures, workshops.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: I continue to be active in in passing on that experience.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: My little experiments become different and they change over time.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: This is something what I see with all colleagues from the arts that when you start, it's a new tool, you need to master it, and it takes some time.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: So the concepts, the artistic concepts on how to use this tool are going to change, are going to become better grown up.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I think by the end of the year and next year, we are going to see very interesting artworks generated with AI.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: The project that I'm involved now that I'm going to work on for the next weeks and then show in a gallery in Augsburg and in Berlin in September is about trauma.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's about traumatic experiences of World War II and how they are passed on to the generation of the kids and the grandchildren of those who had suffered in the war.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I've been working with vintage material from the nineteen forties that have been shot by German soldiers before and after combat.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it's related to my family history.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: I had a very old father, 1924, he was like born, and when he was sixteen, he went to war.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: He never talked about it, and at the end of his life it all came back.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: And he hallucinated and had traumatic experiences.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, it had an effect on me on an unconscious level.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to work this out.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: This is my next project, yeah.
• 32:36
  David McClelland: A really challenging project for you as an artist, for you as a person to process all of that.
• 32:42
  David McClelland: I'm sure there's an element of therapy in your artistic process there, but also the the topics very challenging.
• 32:49
  David McClelland: And the nature of your work is incredibly challenging as well.
• 32:53
  David McClelland: Thank you so much for chatting.
• 32:54
  David McClelland: But it's it's been a fascinating conversation.
• 32:56
  David McClelland: And as you say, we're really just at the beginning of this journey, it feels like.
• 33:01
  David McClelland: And thank you for the questions that you're asking.
• 33:04
  David McClelland: I don't know the answers.
• 33:06
  David McClelland: I don't know that anyone knows the answers, but you can't come to an answer until you've asked the question in the first place.
• 33:10
  David McClelland: So um keep on asking those questions, and I look forward to seeing your postcards over the coming months.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 33:24
  David McClelland: Now, in the interest of balance, we reached out to Crio, the company behind the World Photography Organisation and organisers of the Stony World Photography Awards, to ask for their side of the story regarding Boris's involvement.
• 33:38
  David McClelland: They sent a statement, it's uh it's a few paragraphs long, but here goes.
• 33:43
  David McClelland: The creative category of the open competition welcomes various experimental approaches to image making from cyanotypes to ray graphs to cutting-edge digital practices.
• 33:53
  David McClelland: As such, following our correspondence with Boris and the warranties he provided, we felt that his entry fulfilled the criteria for this category, and we were supportive of his participation.
• 34:04
  David McClelland: Additionally, we were looking forward to engaging in a more in-depth discussion on this topic and welcomed Boris's wish for dialogue by preparing questions for a dedicated QA with him for our website.
• 34:15
  David McClelland: As he decided to decline his award, we suspended our activities with him and in keeping with his wishes, removed him from the competition.
• 34:24
  David McClelland: So, that's that.
• 34:25
  David McClelland: We also asked Creo about the role that AI-generated imagery might play in the competition going forward.
• 34:32
  David McClelland: They responded, We recognize the importance of this subject and its impact on image making today.
• 34:37
  David McClelland: We look forward to further exploring this topic via our various channels and programs and welcoming the conversation around it.
• 34:44
  David McClelland: While elements of AI practices are relevant in artistic contexts of image making, the awards always have been and will continue to be a platform for championing the excellence and skill of photographers and artists working in the medium.
• 35:01
  David McClelland: There we go.
• 35:02
  David McClelland: Like I say, wanted to try and make sure we had some balance and heard from both sides of that story.
• 35:09
  David McClelland: Hannah, you were at, I'm right in understanding, I think, the Sony World Photography Awards ceremony where Boris went on stage and then turned down the award.
• 35:18
  David McClelland: How did that go down in the room?
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think everybody was quite shocked that anyone would turn down the award.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think people were also quite shocked to find out that the image was entirely created on AI because whilst it did win the creative category and Sony World Photography Awards have always been open, very open about the creative category being the one award where you can be more experimental, and perhaps that leans into using AI as a tool or at least as a way of creating part of an image and then mixing it with photography, but for the whole image to be actually AI generated, I think that was shocking.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: But I think I think the biggest thing was the fact that he wanted to open this conversation and then he turned down the award because I I basically think he could have accepted the award and still opened the conversation, yeah.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it feels a little bit like because Sony didn't respond in exactly the way that they he wanted them to do when he wanted them to, as in, he they didn't open up the conversation before the award was announced.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: He felt like he then was undeserving, but I think there's a certain element of there are there were I think 10 maybe shortlisted photographers within that category, and I don't think that there is a way that the Sony World Photography Awards or Creo could have opened that conversation without it affecting or impacting the other photographers that were in the shortlist for the award.
• 36:45
  David McClelland: Yeah, the criticism was listening, hearing the news off the back of this year's awards, there was one conversation point around Boris uh and around this image, and the other winners of the awards maybe have been overlooked as a result of the conversation that's been started, which is which is a real shame for them, I think.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I don't perhaps think Boris ever set out intentionally to overshadow anybody else's glory or to take away the spotlight from other winners, actual photographers who went out and shot really interesting, important personal projects.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: Edgar Martins, for example, he was the overall winner of this year's competition and he shot a beautiful project called Our War, which was dedicated to his friend and photojournalist who sadly died in Libya when he was covering conflict over there.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: And whilst I think what Boris has done is incredibly important because it's a conversation that we do need to have, especially as more and more photography competitions are being quote unquote fooled by AI images, I also think it's a shame that this has been the almost the central point of this year's photography awards when there are so many incredible photographers covering really important humanitarian issues, global world issues, issues to do with poverty, women's rights, things like that that really have something to say.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, I think this is an important conversation.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: Whether this is the right time to bring it up, I don't know if I agree with that fully, but I think maybe he should have graciously accepted the award and then opened up this conversation.
• 38:30
  David McClelland: As we were lining up this interview, I was a bit concerned.
• 38:34
  David McClelland: I I guess I wanted to understand what his motivations were behind this.
• 38:38
  David McClelland: Was it about ego?
• 38:39
  David McClelland: Was it about Boris?
• 38:41
  David McClelland: Or was it about him wanting to open up this conversation?
• 38:44
  David McClelland: And I I was, you know, I feel guilty for reflecting on that now because I was absolutely convinced from the conversations that I've had with Boris and from what I've what I've understood about his work that he he is about opening up that conversation.
• 38:58
  David McClelland: And it certainly is what he's done now.
• 39:02
  David McClelland: As for the timing piece, I I mean I I would argue not notwithstanding the awards themselves, I think now does feel like the best time for us to be having this conversation.
• 39:15
  David McClelland: I I don't think this time last year we could have had this conversation with the same amount of depth because these these tools that we're talking about, the stable diffusion, the DALI, and all and all the rest of that, just weren't as widely available.
• 39:27
  David McClelland: And it was that momentum that these tools built.
• 39:31
  David McClelland: Last autumn, autumn 2022, as ChatGPT on the text side was also becoming a thing.
• 39:38
  David McClelland: This kind of generative AI hype cycle, if if that's indeed what it is, was was really gaining momentum.
• 39:44
  David McClelland: So I think this this spring did feel like the right time.
• 39:49
  David McClelland: Was it the right forum?
• 39:50
  David McClelland: Well, I I guess if your intent is to get that conversation started, it absolutely did do that.
• 39:56
  David McClelland: And maybe what's important now is is what happens next.
• 40:00
  David McClelland: Conversation's one thing, but really understanding what this what this means, asking questions, asking the right questions.
• 40:08
  David McClelland: I don't know if anyone's really coming up with any answers.
• 40:10
  David McClelland: Do you do do you have a sense that whether it's the World Photography Organization or the Royal Photographic Society or any of these other bodies, do you feel as though we are beginning to get some sense of what people feel about this yet?
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think we're start certainly starting to recognise the power and the magnitude that AI photos or promptography or whatever you want to call it, I'm sure we will come up with a more definite grounded name for it eventually.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think people are starting to realise how realistic it can actually be, how perhaps it can fool us into believing photos that are real are actually fake.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think like what you were saying about the conversation starting now, a year ago it couldn't have started.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: We weren't in a position where realistic photos were being created.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: We were at the very start of this AI journey where you could type in some text prompts and you could come up with a cool image, but there's no way it would have looked like a photo.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: It would have looked like a digital illustration.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: Now we are at a point where programmes and software are being developed specifically for the point of replacing photographers.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: An article I wrote this week this week is about a piece of software called Photo AI, which I guess is more aimed at small businesses who perhaps cannot afford expensive photo shoots, but it claims to be able to replace photographers.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: And that I think is a really worrying and detrimental aspect of AI.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: That if we then move into this world where photographers are being replaced by AI entirely, then that's suddenly that's a that's a serious move into a world that I don't necessarily want to be a part of.
• 41:58
  David McClelland: I I kind of want to steer the conversation onto some other AI tools out there.
• 42:02
  David McClelland: There are lots of other tools that actually maybe fall on the other side of some people's perceptions about the disruption or about the utility of AI tools.
• 42:12
  David McClelland: Lots of AI tools that are becoming really useful potentially in people's workflow.
• 42:18
  David McClelland: And I know that you looked at one with regards to uh shot selection.
• 42:23
  David McClelland: Tell me about uh Aftershot.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: So Aftershot's a tool that I use relatively recently.
• 42:29
  David McClelland: Sorry, I should say it's aftershoot, my bad.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: But it's aftershoot afters.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so aftershoot's a tool that I use relatively recently, and the premise of it is you upload your photos into it, and it will select the best one based on a series of pre parameters that you select.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: So you can set things like closed eyes, blurriness, whether people are smiling, how similar photos are, they'll group them together and pick the best one.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_01: I've used it on quite a few shoots now where I've shot say four to 400 to a thousand photos, and it has broken down those photos into maybe 150 to 200 photos, which it thinks are the best photos out of the lot.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: I obviously went through and I double checked to see if I agreed with it, and I've got to be honest, on the whole, I did agree with it.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: As a photographer who shoots four-day-long festivals sometimes, I can come home with two and a half, three thousand, if not more, photos.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_01: Culling takes the longest time out of anything, any other photo editing process.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'll find myself going back and forth between the same four photos, zooming into people's faces just to make sure that someone's eyes aren't shut or they're looking in the wrong direction, everyone's smiling.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_01: This tool has saved me so much time in my editing workflow.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: I can set it to do its thing.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_01: It takes 40 minutes to an hour, perhaps more, if you have more photos.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: In that time, I can.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: I can schedule social media posts, I can make dinner, I can pop out and see friends if I wanted to, I can send some emails.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: There are so many things that I can do in the time that I would otherwise spend colouring photos and doing something really boring.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: So things like that, I think you know, AI is an amazing use of time, and but for that particular job, I don't think there is someone out there who's gonna lose work because of it.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 44:29
  David McClelland: On the flip side of that, Adobe, for example, have just But just to explain, a cat has invented the podcast.
• 44:38
  David McClelland: Tell me about the cat.
• 44:39
  David McClelland: Tilly Tilly.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_01: Tilly, so she's not actually our cat.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_01: She's kind of like a timeshare cat who um she lives at the end of our road.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: Or she doesn't really, she actually does just live in our house most of the time.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um she does absolutely love cuddles, and honestly, being on my laptop is probably one of her favourite things.
• 45:01
  David McClelland: Loves a good AI conversation, absolutely.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: She obviously does, wants to be involved.
• 45:06
  David McClelland: So after shoot, on on one side of the spectrum, should we say, if if AI machine learning okay, so AI nerds will probably say, well, look, it's not artificial intelligence, really, it's just one branch, it's generative AI, it's machine learning, all the rest of that sort of stuff.
• 45:20
  David McClelland: We're just gonna call it AI for now because that's what everyone else is, and we can we can talk another time about the different types of AI.
• 45:27
  David McClelland: But on the one side of the spectrum, there perhaps is what Aftershoot is doing, and I think most people would agree, golly, that's gonna save me a lot of time.
• 45:36
  David McClelland: And providing what it's do providing it's doing a good job of it, which from what you're saying it is, then that's great.
• 45:42
  David McClelland: On another side of the spectrum, well, you've already spoken about photo AI, which is maybe kind of off the charts for for you in terms of you know replacing photographers, but but maybe somewhere further along the spectrum is Adobe Firefly, which has been kicking around now in in beta for a little while and has kind of got got gone mainstream.
• 46:03
  David McClelland: For anyone who has maybe been burying their head in the sand because AI news is just so overwhelming right now.
• 46:11
  David McClelland: Tell me where we are.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: So Adobe Firefly, in simple terms, is an integrated text-to-image generator that you can use within different Adobe softwares.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: I personally haven't actually used Adobe Firefly on its as its own software, but I have used some of the tools that come with it in Photoshop.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_01: So for example, one of the tools that I've used is the generative fill.
• 46:37
  David McClelland: Which has been around for a lot an awfully long time.
• 46:40
  David McClelland: I've used generative fill, but now it's just got far more kind of prescriptive, hasn't it?
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it has.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've used things like it before.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we've we've we've cloned things out of pictures for a long time.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_01: We've always went, you know, you've removed signs from wedding photos or bottles that you don't want, and we were doing that for ages.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: But now it is so easy, it is so fast.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_01: And my opinion on AI was always that I didn't have a problem with it as long as it didn't affect the livelihood of my fellow creatives.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_01: I started using the new Photoshop beta, which included the generative fill, and suddenly I was retouching photos in minutes that would have otherwise taken me hours.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it was at that point that I thought this might be an issue for retouchers.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: Because I personally, you know, I I run a very small photography brand outside of my full-time job.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_01: I don't employ retouchers, I do it all myself.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, it's great because it saves me time.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: But for people who are working maybe more commercially or with much bigger teams who do outsource work to retouchers, that those retouchers doing that work might see their jobs at risk if tools like this become so advanced that you can just type in remove blemishes, remove people from this part of the photo.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I went to Bologna recently and I took a photo of myself or I took my friend to take it in the main square.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_01: I was surrounded by people, and in less than a minute I deleted every single one of those people from the photo.
• 48:21
  David McClelland: I I saw some of the pictures that you took, the before and after in there, and yeah, if it is as simple really as I guess putting those text prompts in there and just a little bit of moving around, that is a that is a real time saver.
• 48:36
  David McClelland: I guess the question is well, maybe the question isn't, you know, is it good enough right now to replace a retoucher?
• 48:42
  David McClelland: Because anything that we say is the case right now in maybe six months, twelve months time almost certainly won't be the case anymore.
• 48:49
  David McClelland: So retouchers are gonna have to st stake a new claim, if not find a new way to apply their their their creative skills.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean I think you're definitely right.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_01: Right now, they're safe, then it's not gonna replace it.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: The photo that I uploaded, the before and after, if you look really closely, it's not perfect.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think especially if a photographer looks at it, they'll be able to tell that it's not perfect.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're an influencer, for example, and you're going on holiday and you want these perfect images for your Instagram, you're not gonna worry if something's not gonna be completely perfect.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_01: You can upload it anyway.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_01: But give us six months, twelve months, see how far we've come in the last six months and the last twelve months.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's at that point I think it's gonna be slightly more worrying.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I like to think that there will always be a role for photographers for retouchers because at the end of the day, I don't believe that AI will ever be able to do it better than a human can.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: But I think there will be a certain amount of people who are out to save money, to save time, who won't care that it's not done quite as well.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's just done quicker and cheaper.
• 50:00
  David McClelland: I I I think from the other side of this, you know, we've spoken about the content creation side here, but then there's also a change that's required for the media consuming public.
• 50:11
  David McClelland: Because up until this point, it strikes me there's been two types of work broadly.
• 50:15
  David McClelland: As a viewer, I can tell if something's a cartoon, I can tell if something's been illustrated, if it's been drawn, or if it's computer graphics.
• 50:22
  David McClelland: Generally speaking, I think we can tell, and we know when we see that that okay, I don't trust that.
• 50:29
  David McClelland: That is a synthetic image, and I don't trust that that thing actually happened.
• 50:35
  David McClelland: And then on the other side, you've got a photograph.
• 50:38
  David McClelland: And generally speaking, if you see a photograph as a human, we go, okay, then that is almost certainly a thing that happened.
• 50:46
  David McClelland: Yes, it might have been taken out of context.
• 50:49
  David McClelland: I think we're kind of developing some of the smarts now to understand that.
• 50:53
  David McClelland: However, the world in which we are now finding ourselves in is that photo-realistic content is being created and we cannot trust that.
• 51:04
  David McClelland: So as viewers, as consumers, I think we need to develop an understanding of this of this third place of this just because it looks photorealistic, we still have to question it in a way that I've not been brought up to do.
• 51:20
  David McClelland: Kids at school, my kids aren't really taught to do this.
• 51:23
  David McClelland: You know, if if it's a photograph, then you know, naturally we go towards the trustworthy side of it.
• 51:29
  David McClelland: So I think this is certainly a new sense, a new education, a new journey that consumers are gonna have to go on as well.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is, and it's something that I still don't really understand, don't really know where I stand on it.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_01: I know we had a slight discussion last time we chatted, and you know, the way I look at it is a portrait should be a connection between photographer and subject.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're creating a portrait using AI, despite how real it looks, it's not real at the end of the day.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_01: The story behind those eyes is fake.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter how real they look, even if they're sparkling, even if they look like they've lived a life, there isn't really a story there.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_01: But I appreciate that if it looks real and it and it instigates an emotion in you, why should that be any less important than a photo that is actually real?
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_01: And that's again is uh is another can of worms to open.
• 52:26
  David McClelland: Yeah, but I have to counter that as a as a theatre goer, as as a cinema goer, you know.
• 52:31
  David McClelland: I will see whoever on stage, whoever on screen there, and I know that this is a synthetic emotion.
• 52:39
  David McClelland: I know that this actor is saying some lines that they read in a script, but am I am I still on a journey with them?
• 52:45
  David McClelland: Do I still empathize with them?
• 52:47
  David McClelland: Well, if it's a good production, if it's a good performance, then yes, I absolutely, I absolutely do.
• 52:52
  David McClelland: And as a human, there is that willing suspension of disbelief that we talk about.
• 52:56
  David McClelland: And going back to Boris and going back to that that image, the electrician, I when I look at that, yes, I do, uh, I do feel a connection.
• 53:06
  David McClelland: I know these images are synthetic.
• 53:07
  David McClelland: I know that he typed some words into an engine and those images were created, and you know, that look behind behind the eyes, that ain't real.
• 53:15
  David McClelland: That that never happened.
• 53:17
  David McClelland: Yet I can't help but look at that image and feel a connection with it.
• 53:22
  David McClelland: So while I know it's not real, while I know going to the National Theatre RSC or the Curve Theatre 100 yards behind me here in Leicester, I know that what's happening on stage ain't real.
• 53:33
  David McClelland: As a human, I still can't help but find a connection to it.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_01: But I think the theatre thing, the whole point is that it is playing, it is being played by a real human.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a hologram, it's not something digitally created, it's a human who's learnt how to emphasize that emotion, how to connect with you.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_01: You don't get that same thing when you're looking at something that's been created entirely from a text prompt.
• 53:56
  David McClelland: Listen, this is uh this is a conversation that has got many, many more legs to cope, but it's been really good to chat through it with you.
• 54:03
  David McClelland: How about though, we move on to the final part of the show where uh we talk about something completely different.
• 54:09
  David McClelland: It's our gadget of the month.
• 54:11
  David McClelland: Now, this is a time of the show where we pick our gadget of the month.
• 54:14
  David McClelland: Every month we share a knick-knack that's caught our eye and well, who knows, could be your next essential accessory.
• 54:20
  David McClelland: It doesn't have to be photography related, but given the title of the show, maybe it should be.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I was gonna talk about the Canon PowerShot V10, but I'm very conscious that we've touched on it already.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_01: So the thing I'm gonna talk about instead is the Shimoda X30 V2 backpack, which has recently been brought out by Shimoda.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_01: The reason I'm gonna talk about it is because there are very few women's backpacks out there, and this is one of the first backpacks that I have ever worn, ever used that fits comfortably, that fits my figure, that has straps in the right place across my chest, it has slightly thinner straps around the shoulders.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_01: And as a woman in photography, it's very hard to find a bag out there that actually is really comfortable, that sits in your hips on the right places, that just really kind of works with you.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_01: And this backpack is one of the first ones I've used where I've actually thought, yes, this is this is good, this is comfortable, it fits in the things that I want it to fit in.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's got lots of pockets.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's something that I think is really important that the photography industry focuses on a lot more because at the end of the day, photographers are not just men, there are a lot of female photographers out there who are struggling to find backpacks that A suit them figure-wise, but B also perhaps don't just look like a really boring backpack, which the Shimoda one doesn't.
• 55:54
  David McClelland: Well said.
• 55:55
  David McClelland: Now I I'm a I'm a bit of a bag fan.
• 55:58
  David McClelland: I've got lots of bags, yeah.
• 55:59
  David McClelland: Probably more than I should confess to, really.
• 56:02
  David McClelland: Um, do you find it still as as spacious, as capacious, and as pocketful as the other bags that you have?
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean it comes in three different sizes.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_01: There's a 25, a 35, and I think a 45 litre size.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_01: It is just that on where the straps are, on a lot of the backpacks I have, so I have the low pro tactic, the chest strap sits directly across my chest, which can be quite uncomfortable.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_01: The Shimoda one, however, it has two straps on it.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_01: One sits above and one sits under, and it was also fully adjustable so you can move the actual shoulder strap positions so that you can change where the chest strap positions sit, and also the hips, where is there I think is they're more padded than most other camera bags that I've previously used.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's just really refreshing to have a bag that fits me and has been thought about and designed for me, probably with input by other female photographers or female identifying photographers.
• 57:06
  David McClelland: Well, hats off then to Shimoda Designs.
• 57:09
  David McClelland: We'll put a link to that in the show notes.
• 57:12
  David McClelland: That's almost all for today's show.
• 57:14
  David McClelland: We will be back on the first Thursday of next month for more of the same.
• 57:20
  David McClelland: Who knows what will have happened in the world of AI between now and then.
• 57:24
  David McClelland: If it's happened, then we'll be here to talk about it.
• 57:26
  David McClelland: If you do enjoy what we do, then please do subscribe, leave a review, tell your friends, camera clubs, whatever.
• 57:33
  David McClelland: Uh, despite our apparent popularity in Iceland, we are still a new podcast, so really every little does happen.
• 57:38
  David McClelland: We'd love to hear your thoughts on what we've been talking about as well.
• 57:41
  David McClelland: If you've got strong views on AI, on anything that we've been talking about, if you've got another bag that you can really recommend, whether you're a male or a female, then let us know.
• 57:48
  David McClelland: Drop us an email at thephotography show at futurenet.com.
• 57:53
  David McClelland: That's thephotography show at futurenet.com.
• 57:57
  David McClelland: We're on Instagram at thephotography show and on Twitter at UK Photoshow.
• 58:03
  David McClelland: A reminder, also keep your eyes peeled at photography show.com for more info as it emerges about the amazing guests on the super stage at the in-person photography and video show, which takes place at the NEC in Birmingham National Exhibition Centre from the 16th to the 19th of March next year, 2024.
• 58:21
  David McClelland: And finally, speaking of super amazing special guests, Hannah Rook.
• 58:26
  David McClelland: What a delight it's been to chat with you this month.
• 58:28
  David McClelland: Will you come back and join us again, please?
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you so much.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've loved it.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_01: So please have me back and hopefully we can talk about how AI has changed.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's changing so fast, so let's be honest, it's going to be entirely different when we next talk.
• 58:42
  David McClelland: I I'd love to say I'm looking forward to that, but it's uh it's it's unsettling but fascinating professionally to watch.
• 58:49
  David McClelland: If people want to keep up with what you get up to, read more of your AI opinions and some of the other AI tooling that you've been pitched or have you been finding out and using, uh, where's the best place to find you online?
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_01: If you head to digitalcameraworld.com or if you fancy keeping up with my photography, just search at Hanalisa Photography on Instagram.
• 59:09
  David McClelland: Big thank you to Boris as well, and thank you all for joining us.
• 59:14
  David McClelland: Until next time, bye-bye.
• 59:16
  David McClelland: Bye bye.