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A Look At Crypto Regulation And The Markets · Bloomberg Intelligence

0:00
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Markets Podcast. I'm Paul Sweeney, alongside
0:04
Speaker 1: my co host Matt Miller. Every business day, we bring
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Speaker 1: you interviews from CEOs, market pros, and Bloomberg experts, along
0:11
Speaker 1: with essential market moving news. Find the Bloomberg Markets Podcast
0:15
Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts, and
0:18
Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot com slash podcast. Now, let's get to crypto.
0:23
Speaker 1: I've been waiting. Marco Santor joins us. He's the chief
0:26
Speaker 1: legal officer at Kraken and Marco. It's interesting, you know, um,
0:32
Speaker 1: a lot of bears, Jamie Diamond among them, are you know,
0:37
Speaker 1: continually ensuring the market. Hey, you know what, the US
0:39
Speaker 1: Government's gonna regulate this space, and it seems like the
0:43
Speaker 1: more it gets regulated, the higher the price climbs. Anyway,
0:47
Speaker 1: is it really a bad thing if crypto is regulated?
0:52
Speaker 1: That's a that's a terrific question, and really like the
0:55
Speaker 1: perfect lens to view crypto regulation as it relates to
0:59
Speaker 1: the price. Listen, the price of crypto. Are the price
1:03
Speaker 1: of crypto is going to go up. It's just gonna
1:05
Speaker 1: go up, and it's gonna go up and sometimes it's
1:07
Speaker 1: gonna go down. But By and large, the reason why
1:10
Speaker 1: the price of crypto keeps going up is not because
1:13
Speaker 1: of a speculative frenzy. It's not because governments have been
1:17
Speaker 1: laying off and once they do really crack down, it's
1:21
Speaker 1: going to get destroyed. The bottom is going to fall out.
1:23
Speaker 1: That is completely the wrong ones to view it. The
1:26
Speaker 1: right lens to view it is that this is a
1:27
Speaker 1: technological transformation, technological revolution, and unlike other technological revolution, this
1:34
Speaker 1: one has a price picker. That's the that's the that's
1:38
Speaker 1: the bottom line is that if you could, if you
1:40
Speaker 1: could invest in the in the very early days of
1:43
Speaker 1: arpa net right, the progenitor to the Internet. Gosh, I mean,
1:49
Speaker 1: of course you would have done that. You know. The
1:51
Speaker 1: early is that the Internet had websites, right, you can
1:54
Speaker 1: buy and sell websites, but it was a highly inefficient market.
1:58
Speaker 1: It happened very slowly, it was largely insecure. The difference
2:03
Speaker 1: between what happened then and what's happening now is not
2:06
Speaker 1: that crmino is any lesson the Internet. Actually it will be,
2:11
Speaker 1: and it will be significantly more. I think it's going
2:14
Speaker 1: to change every aspect of our financial lives. But the
2:18
Speaker 1: difference is that well, this time, there there's there's there's
2:22
Speaker 1: there's financial opportunity all tied up in it for everyday
2:26
Speaker 1: people because these tokens, many of them work like functional goods. Um.
2:32
Speaker 1: And that's that's a that is not only a generational opportunity.
2:36
Speaker 1: I think it's a historical opportunity. So look, I wouldn't
2:39
Speaker 1: say jump in and by a bunch of crypto because
2:42
Speaker 1: you think that because you think the price is going
2:43
Speaker 1: to go up. That's that's the wrong lens to view
2:46
Speaker 1: it through. You have to view this through. What's really happening.
2:49
Speaker 1: This this ground swell opportunity. Uh In in terms of
2:53
Speaker 1: technological innovation, Marco, there's a new sheriff on Wall Street,
2:57
Speaker 1: if you will, in SEC chair Gary Gensler. What do
3:01
Speaker 1: you know about him? What do you know about his
3:03
Speaker 1: views on crypto? Gary Densler understands, So I think better
3:09
Speaker 1: than better than most people. Um. You know, we we
3:13
Speaker 1: we keep open lines of communication with regulators even if
3:16
Speaker 1: they are in our primary functional regulator. The SEC is
3:20
Speaker 1: not our primary functional regulator. They are not the primary
3:23
Speaker 1: functional regulator of any crypto exchanges in the US, UH
3:29
Speaker 1: that I'm aware of. But look, I mean, you don't
3:32
Speaker 1: need a microscope to to figure out that that they
3:35
Speaker 1: probably want to be. Gensler has said on a number
3:39
Speaker 1: of occasions that he believes that the protections required uh
3:44
Speaker 1: for users of crypto exchanges are investor protections, not just
3:49
Speaker 1: consumer protections. And that would mean a real shift from
3:53
Speaker 1: the kinds of regulation that applies to crypto exchanges today,
3:57
Speaker 1: which is primarily money transmit a regulation or the kind
4:01
Speaker 1: of regulation that that that you get when you walk
4:03
Speaker 1: into a MoneyGram or a Western unions that he thinks
4:06
Speaker 1: it ought to be something different, something more investor protection regulation.
4:11
Speaker 1: So all of the investor protector regulations that you talk
4:15
Speaker 1: about on this show every day, the kind of regulation
4:17
Speaker 1: that applies to broker dealers, um, national securities exchanges, investment advisors,
4:25
Speaker 1: that that sort of thing. So UM, I think that's
4:28
Speaker 1: that's where we're headed. Uh. It's not really a legal
4:31
Speaker 1: discussion yet, it's or at least it shouldn't be. It's
4:34
Speaker 1: it's a policy discussion, the question of what kinds of
4:38
Speaker 1: regulation to apply to crypto companies, exchanges, custodians, that sort
4:45
Speaker 1: of thing. And I don't think it's so easy as
4:48
Speaker 1: as to look at it and say, well it looks,
4:50
Speaker 1: it walks like a duck, it class like a duck.
4:52
Speaker 1: It's got steads. So let's call all these things broker
4:54
Speaker 1: dealers and call it a day. I think that would
4:57
Speaker 1: be throwing the baby out with bath. Moderate in a
5:00
Speaker 1: opportunity to establish a regulatory regime that really works for
5:04
Speaker 1: crypto uses. I wonder what it's like as a lawyer
5:08
Speaker 1: to deal with. UM. You know, an asset that doesn't
5:13
Speaker 1: have you can't touch, it doesn't exist other than as
5:18
Speaker 1: a line of code, and it doesn't have any um
5:22
Speaker 1: intrinsic value or purpose other than to be you know,
5:28
Speaker 1: worth money. Is it different than other kinds of I
5:31
Speaker 1: P or do you just lump it all in the
5:34
Speaker 1: same kind of baskin. It's absolutely different. It's absolutely different.
5:40
Speaker 1: And I can tell you, as a lawyer who's practiced
5:43
Speaker 1: in this space since late that makes me aged agent
5:48
Speaker 1: in this industry. UM, let me let me tell you
5:52
Speaker 1: it is. It is. It is the most fantastic opportunity
5:55
Speaker 1: to investigate, to reinvestigate first principles of good regulation, to
6:02
Speaker 1: reinvestigate how, how how these laws were originally crafted to
6:06
Speaker 1: protect people. UM, and I gotta tell you it is
6:10
Speaker 1: a It is a terrific opportunity to to question why
6:14
Speaker 1: we have disclosure regimes, for example, just the most fundamental
6:17
Speaker 1: questions about how we how we protect people and how
6:20
Speaker 1: we protect investors. You know, today we have these disclosure
6:24
Speaker 1: regimes that require companies who are issuers to tell all
6:28
Speaker 1: the public about what the company is doing so that
6:30
Speaker 1: people aren't caught off guard by by things that could
6:34
Speaker 1: affect their financial future. Do we need that for crypto? Well,
6:40
Speaker 1: we need something like it maybe, But I mean, you
6:44
Speaker 1: can't ask a digital you can't ask a computer protocol
6:48
Speaker 1: to publish a phase, right, Like that's never going to
6:52
Speaker 1: happen for a bitcoint and it would be folly for
6:54
Speaker 1: government to require it for some companies though, or for
6:58
Speaker 1: for some protocols are actually our companies behind them and
7:02
Speaker 1: for them, Well, I think we to start what what
7:05
Speaker 1: a new disclosure regime looks like? What it really awful?
7:10
Speaker 1: All right? Thanks so much for joining us. Really interesting stuff,
7:13
Speaker 1: Marco Sentori there from Kraken. Let's get a sense here
7:20
Speaker 1: on this market. We talk about the wall of worry,
7:24
Speaker 1: if you will, and there are many bricks in that
7:27
Speaker 1: wall of worry. Um, let's get a sense. And people
7:30
Speaker 1: are asking themselves. Boys, the next ten percent move gonna
7:33
Speaker 1: be up or down. I think the camps are. It
7:35
Speaker 1: feels like it's fairly evenly dispersed their Jeff Camarta, Chairman,
7:40
Speaker 1: CEO and portfolio board chair of the Camarda Wealth Advisory Group,
7:43
Speaker 1: is also author of the Financial Storm Warning for investors,
7:46
Speaker 1: How to Prepare and Protect your wealth from taxis and
7:49
Speaker 1: market crashes. Jeff, are you concerned about a significant pullback
7:54
Speaker 1: in this market? I think it's just inevitable. I mean,
7:57
Speaker 1: the market has been soaring, really floated up into space
8:00
Speaker 1: as the world burns since COVID. COVID presented in early
8:04
Speaker 1: So whether this is the beginning of it or both
8:07
Speaker 1: continuing bill trend for a bit longer, I'm not sure,
8:09
Speaker 1: but I think sooner or later we're in for quite
8:12
Speaker 1: a shock. So how do you especially tax hikes, I'm
8:16
Speaker 1: I'm wondering, how do you protect your wealth from tax hikes?
8:20
Speaker 1: There's a lot of it regional. I notice you're in Florida. Well,
8:24
Speaker 1: I think I think you know. The biggest pie, certainly
8:26
Speaker 1: is is federal and there are so many dark forces
8:28
Speaker 1: that are really conspiring I think to drive really atrocious
8:32
Speaker 1: wealth stormed conditions, But protecting yourself from tax hikes really
8:37
Speaker 1: is the function of understanding tax law and what the
8:40
Speaker 1: opportunities for legal tax avoidance are. All right, So, Jeff,
8:45
Speaker 1: you're you're really worried, You're concerned about a significant pullback
8:49
Speaker 1: in this market. What would be the catalyst for that
8:53
Speaker 1: in your mind? It really is hard to say. You know,
8:56
Speaker 1: right now, we're still pretty much in greed mode and
8:58
Speaker 1: folks are buying, you know, it's applying demand and which sellers,
9:01
Speaker 1: you know, um out number buyers, and it flips, and
9:05
Speaker 1: it's it's really hard to tell what the tipping point
9:08
Speaker 1: would be. Could have been an attack in Taiwan, you
9:10
Speaker 1: know it, could it be an acknowledgement that inflation really
9:13
Speaker 1: is insidious and a lot worse than the FED has
9:15
Speaker 1: led us to believe. There are so many different things
9:18
Speaker 1: that are really could triggered. But when it happens as
9:20
Speaker 1: it did, you know ad mid the third quarter of
9:23
Speaker 1: oh eight, you know, it's pretty rapid. By the way.
9:27
Speaker 1: As a side note, everything lately is reminding me of
9:31
Speaker 1: you know that book by Admiral Turvid so good and
9:37
Speaker 1: uh a Taiwan issue is one of the things that
9:40
Speaker 1: happens I'm more concerned. Um, well, let's say we're more
9:44
Speaker 1: focused on a daily basis on inflation and growth. What
9:48
Speaker 1: are your views on economic growth, you know, barring something
9:52
Speaker 1: like you know, Grace on black swan issue like an
9:56
Speaker 1: attack on Taiwan. What what are your views on growth
9:58
Speaker 1: and inflation in the US economy right now? Well? I
10:00
Speaker 1: think inflation is a really big factor, right and which
10:02
Speaker 1: is not fully acknowledged by by a lot of players.
10:06
Speaker 1: For instance, deal is up four times in a year,
10:08
Speaker 1: four times. It's an important industrial input, right, And that's
10:11
Speaker 1: before you look at logistical problems and you know, you
10:13
Speaker 1: get the last count there was sixty five ships anchored
10:16
Speaker 1: off the l A port. You can't move the stuff.
10:18
Speaker 1: Shipping costs have gone through the roof. Um. But to
10:21
Speaker 1: answer your question, you know, the economy still is while
10:25
Speaker 1: some sectors are doing well in some countries have done okay,
10:28
Speaker 1: it's still very much in tatters, you know, and damaged
10:31
Speaker 1: in really unknowable ways. Um. And uh, eventually I think
10:35
Speaker 1: that that that that financial stress is going to throughput
10:37
Speaker 1: into market prices. Jeff, how long have you had this
10:40
Speaker 1: view of markets here, this negative view of markets? And
10:43
Speaker 1: what do you tell your clients. What's your advice to
10:45
Speaker 1: your clients? I wrote the book Between Semesters, A George
10:49
Speaker 1: George town Law last last Christmas, and it really began
10:53
Speaker 1: to um, you know, to be unclear to me as
10:57
Speaker 1: the COVID stock bubble floated up into space, right, the
11:00
Speaker 1: world catches fire in early and stock levels just go,
11:04
Speaker 1: you know, incredible record highs, and you're starting to examine.
11:07
Speaker 1: I wrote a piece for Forbes, um uh probably about
11:11
Speaker 1: a year ago that that got a hundred thousand hits,
11:13
Speaker 1: which is, you know, unusual for me. And I really
11:16
Speaker 1: focus you know on the various uh, the various factors.
11:19
Speaker 1: So what we tell clients, and we've really gone. I've
11:22
Speaker 1: been a died in the wolf fundamentalist old CF A
11:24
Speaker 1: kind of um efficient markets guy well throughout my decades
11:28
Speaker 1: of training. But what happened would COVID really moved me?
11:31
Speaker 1: And why the the world's on fire and stock prices
11:34
Speaker 1: go through the roof didn't make any sense and that's real.
11:37
Speaker 1: And when we really started to examine what was going
11:39
Speaker 1: on and look at ways to develop countermeasures to protect
11:42
Speaker 1: our clients and to readers, you know, from what we
11:45
Speaker 1: see as an inevitable but really devastating market bull back
11:48
Speaker 1: and that just stops, right, bonds have got some more stresses. Well,
11:51
Speaker 1: you know what, I think it's interesting, um if you
11:54
Speaker 1: look in emerging markets, crypto has long had a draw
11:58
Speaker 1: just because they're bet and sees are you know, can
12:01
Speaker 1: be boxed up and wheelbarrowed out and and and still
12:04
Speaker 1: be worthless. What do you think though about the bitcoin
12:07
Speaker 1: right now? As from a from a US perspective, it's
12:11
Speaker 1: difficult to justify the value right and also as a
12:14
Speaker 1: as um as a medium of exchange, you know, with
12:17
Speaker 1: a wildly volatile and fluction winning value. Um uh. And
12:21
Speaker 1: they're also significant fraud you know, how do you can be?
12:23
Speaker 1: By its very nature, it's really hard to identify who
12:27
Speaker 1: owns it? So I think that that as part of
12:30
Speaker 1: the gold sir, not as hard as gold. Yeah. If
12:34
Speaker 1: I throw a gold bar on the floor, who owns that?
12:36
Speaker 1: You know? That's right? Yeah, well it depends to guests
12:39
Speaker 1: do it first? I guess right, that's a good point.
12:42
Speaker 1: I just always, you know, I think it's interesting that
12:46
Speaker 1: people are looking at as a as a hedge or
12:48
Speaker 1: a store of wealth and it has you know, no
12:50
Speaker 1: track record and and really no intrinsic value. I mean,
12:54
Speaker 1: it's worth what someone will pay for it. All right,
12:59
Speaker 1: interesting stuff, and of course we could go on. I'd
13:02
Speaker 1: love to have you back on the program, So appreciate
13:04
Speaker 1: you joining us. Jeff Jeff Camera out of their chairman
13:07
Speaker 1: and CEO Camerata Wealth Advisory Groups talking to us about
13:12
Speaker 1: how to well. He wrote the book about the Financial Storm,
13:15
Speaker 1: warning for investors how to prepare and protect your wealth
13:18
Speaker 1: from tax hikes and market crashes. Now, let's bring in
13:24
Speaker 1: Shawn Snyder, head of investment strategy at City US Consumer
13:29
Speaker 1: Wealth Management. Sean great having on the program. What are
13:33
Speaker 1: your biggest concerns looking at this market? Is it? Is
13:36
Speaker 1: it washing in d C um and and tax policy?
13:41
Speaker 1: Is it inflation? Is it the Fed? Is it earning season? What? What?
13:45
Speaker 1: What's keeping you up at night? If anything? First off,
13:48
Speaker 1: thank you for having me. I guess all of those
13:52
Speaker 1: are are a good spot to start. Um. You know,
13:54
Speaker 1: the DC drama continues to kind of be an overhang
13:57
Speaker 1: on the market. Um. You know, I like to think
14:00
Speaker 1: that you know, this kicking the can down the oone
14:03
Speaker 1: actually gives them more time to um, you know, kind
14:05
Speaker 1: of solidify the party and finalize the details, but it's
14:08
Speaker 1: not clear whether you know, no immediate crisis means no
14:12
Speaker 1: immediate action. Uh, and are we looking at it an
14:15
Speaker 1: awkward Thanksgiving dinner yet again with Congress simply um forcing
14:19
Speaker 1: the deadline issue to December three instead of um, you know,
14:23
Speaker 1: October eighteen. So I think that's an overhanging uncertainty that
14:26
Speaker 1: weighs on the market. You know, history heavily suggests that
14:30
Speaker 1: they do get it done. I mean, the White House
14:32
Speaker 1: and Congress have acted uh ninety eight times since the
14:36
Speaker 1: end of World War Two to modify the debt limit.
14:38
Speaker 1: They've always done it seems like they will get it
14:40
Speaker 1: done again. Um, you know. Likewise, as far as the
14:43
Speaker 1: budget reconciliation bills and infrastructure, uh, twenty one out of
14:48
Speaker 1: twenty five reconciliation bills have went on to be signed
14:51
Speaker 1: by the President. So still a very heavy lift to
14:54
Speaker 1: get the Biden agenda off the ground, But you know,
14:58
Speaker 1: I think they should be able to do it. The
15:00
Speaker 1: other thing with d C that's interesting is by delaying it,
15:02
Speaker 1: they actually give the Treasury Department more time to kind
15:06
Speaker 1: of bolster their extraordinary measures. So um, it's possible that
15:10
Speaker 1: the soft deadline for the debt ceiling is now December three,
15:13
Speaker 1: but if they can bolster those extraordinary measures, then maybe
15:17
Speaker 1: the actual hard that ceiling deadline is maybe well into
15:22
Speaker 1: So I think that's something to keep an eye on
15:24
Speaker 1: and the other things you mentioned. Probably the biggest thing
15:27
Speaker 1: I'm hearing about on the street is this notion of
15:29
Speaker 1: stag inflation, where we get persistent inflation and weaker than
15:34
Speaker 1: expected economic growth, and there are some signs that supply
15:38
Speaker 1: chain issues are are causing problems. Um. If you look
15:42
Speaker 1: at the Atlanta Fed GDP now tracker, it's at just
15:45
Speaker 1: one point three for the third quarter, and I think
15:49
Speaker 1: that would surprise most investors if that's what actually happens.
15:52
Speaker 1: And we get that report October, which is of course
15:55
Speaker 1: just before the FED meeting on November three, where it's
15:58
Speaker 1: why they expected that will begin to take bond purchases.
16:01
Speaker 1: I think importantly most of this slowing is probably related
16:07
Speaker 1: to supply chain issues. UM. If you look at leisure
16:10
Speaker 1: and hospitality wages are up ten percent, that still suggests
16:14
Speaker 1: as demand for workers. Just four percent of small businesses
16:17
Speaker 1: are reporting that poor sales are the most important problem. Uh,
16:21
Speaker 1: And we have ten two point eight million more job
16:25
Speaker 1: openings that unemployed. So it seems to suggest that we're
16:27
Speaker 1: seeing a slowing due to the supply chain issues, but
16:30
Speaker 1: the demand is still there and the economy should snap back.
16:33
Speaker 1: One seases. So we're about to kick off third quarter
16:37
Speaker 1: earning season, Sean, what are you looking for over the
16:41
Speaker 1: next several weeks here as we hear from some of
16:43
Speaker 1: the larger companies. Sure, I think we'll see a pretty
16:47
Speaker 1: good earning season SMP five hundred. Earnings per share expected
16:52
Speaker 1: advise about twenty eight percent year and year. A couple
16:55
Speaker 1: of things that people will be watching is they'll see
16:59
Speaker 1: probably see norm realization in the earnings of so called
17:03
Speaker 1: value companies. We saw a massive surge in the second
17:06
Speaker 1: quarter for financials and energy and some of those value
17:09
Speaker 1: company earnings rose eighty seven percent in the second quarter.
17:13
Speaker 1: That's unlikely to repeat. It's likely to come down maybe
17:16
Speaker 1: twenty something. I'm along those lines. We'll be watching that.
17:20
Speaker 1: Uh and then people are gonna be watching very closely
17:23
Speaker 1: any comments about margin pressures, and you're gonna want to
17:27
Speaker 1: see if these companies can pass on uh these increased
17:30
Speaker 1: costs or input costs onto consumers or not. UM. You know,
17:34
Speaker 1: it looks like maybe industrials and retail companies may not
17:37
Speaker 1: be as able to pass on those costs as some
17:39
Speaker 1: of the other ones, so investors will probably be watching
17:42
Speaker 1: that closely. What do you think about hedges? You know,
17:48
Speaker 1: gold hasn't been performing the way you might have expected
17:51
Speaker 1: it to inflation either, even if you don't, even if
17:54
Speaker 1: you're not afraid of it, you might want to hedge
17:55
Speaker 1: a little bit against it. How do you do that? Well?
17:59
Speaker 1: In some ways, you can actually use the energy sector
18:02
Speaker 1: and the financial sector is a hedge against higher interest rates,
18:05
Speaker 1: and that's what we've seen almost all year long. Financials
18:09
Speaker 1: is the second top performing sector, energy the number one
18:12
Speaker 1: performing sector. Uh in those two sectors tend to do
18:16
Speaker 1: well when interest rates rise. So if we believe that
18:19
Speaker 1: interest rates are going to rise because we're seeing more
18:21
Speaker 1: persistent inflation, the feed is about to potentially taper on
18:25
Speaker 1: November three, then then those are good hedges against that trade. UM.
18:29
Speaker 1: Other things you can do is more of like a
18:32
Speaker 1: longer term you know, goal or change in your portfolio
18:35
Speaker 1: is to shift over to higher quality companies, companies that
18:39
Speaker 1: have really strong revenue growth and earnings growth um even
18:43
Speaker 1: in times of more mid cycled type conditions where the
18:47
Speaker 1: economy is kind of slowed down from its initial reopening,
18:50
Speaker 1: and healthcare shares are a great example of that. They're
18:54
Speaker 1: really really stable revenue growth UM. So we're looking at
18:57
Speaker 1: higher quality companies UM, strong revenue, strong balance sheets, and
19:02
Speaker 1: then also companies with high dividends and their ability to
19:05
Speaker 1: grow dividends. Those types of companies do better as you
19:08
Speaker 1: move into this more mid cycle type conditions. So that's
19:11
Speaker 1: what we're telling our clients to do. Hey, Sean, thanks
19:14
Speaker 1: so much for joining us. We really appreciate you taking
19:16
Speaker 1: the time here. Shawn Snyder, head of investment strategy for
19:19
Speaker 1: City US Consumer Wealth and Management, giving us his sense
19:24
Speaker 1: of this market. Again. We've got earnings really kicking off
19:26
Speaker 1: in earnest tomorrow. We'll get the banks this week at
19:30
Speaker 1: the big banks, and obviously we always like hearing what
19:33
Speaker 1: the bank management teams are saying about their customers and
19:36
Speaker 1: loan demand and just business conditions. And of course, while
19:38
Speaker 1: full earnings coverage over the next several weeks, this is
19:42
Speaker 1: Bloomberg all right. Berndia uh said, Home managing partner said.
19:48
Speaker 1: Home Law Group joins us here and a great great timings.
19:51
Speaker 1: We think about just looking at the news this morning.
19:54
Speaker 1: John Gruden, uh, the head coach of Las Vegas. We
19:58
Speaker 1: can't even talk about that, y leaders. I mean you
20:01
Speaker 1: know kind of it's bad. Yeah, it's it's bad. Some
20:03
Speaker 1: bad emails there, and it kind of goes to the
20:05
Speaker 1: you know, the workplace and behavior and what's acceptable what's
20:08
Speaker 1: not acceptable in the toxicity of that workplace. And so Ronnie,
20:12
Speaker 1: I thank so much for joining us here. Boy, it
20:14
Speaker 1: seems like, you know, you look at some of these
20:16
Speaker 1: big companies like Blue Origin, Amazon, Tesla, some real issues
20:21
Speaker 1: about the workplace and toxicity, toxicity of that workplace in
20:25
Speaker 1: today's environment. Give us a sense of kind of how
20:28
Speaker 1: you think this this situation is developing across corporate America.
20:33
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for having me on the show. I
20:35
Speaker 1: I don't necessarily think this is developing across America. I
20:39
Speaker 1: think we're hearing about it now. I think these issues
20:42
Speaker 1: have been um sort of swept under the rug previously,
20:47
Speaker 1: and now victims have been finding their voice and going
20:55
Speaker 1: through the process that they need to go through in
20:57
Speaker 1: order to seek some kind of redress. So what is
21:04
Speaker 1: is there a line you can draw between things that
21:08
Speaker 1: you definitely can't say with colleagues or other people in
21:11
Speaker 1: your in your business or your industry, and things that
21:14
Speaker 1: you say, you know, to your friends in a private
21:18
Speaker 1: group or as you know, President Trump would have said
21:21
Speaker 1: the locker room, for example, where's that line? You know
21:25
Speaker 1: the line is blurring. On a daily basis, you have
21:30
Speaker 1: to be careful about what you're saying and just ask
21:32
Speaker 1: yourself before you make your comment, what is the rationale
21:36
Speaker 1: behind your comment? Some people say things, uh that are
21:40
Speaker 1: meant to be a joke, and that could be okay
21:43
Speaker 1: depending on the receiving end. Right, does this person with
21:46
Speaker 1: whom you're speaking think it's a joke outside of the workplace.
21:50
Speaker 1: But sometimes people say things and they don't care about
21:55
Speaker 1: the consequence of what they're saying. For example, in this
21:58
Speaker 1: letter that was written by a blue Origin employees or
22:01
Speaker 1: in former employees, there was someone who actually stated, you
22:05
Speaker 1: should ask my opinion because I'm a man. That type
22:09
Speaker 1: of I guess uh statement should not really be permitted
22:16
Speaker 1: to be said in the workplace at the very least
22:19
Speaker 1: because men and women should be treated equally. And while
22:25
Speaker 1: there are various levels of intellect across the board, men
22:28
Speaker 1: are not smarter than women. Women are not smarter than men.
22:31
Speaker 1: It is on a you know, individualized basis, and to
22:34
Speaker 1: just insult an entire group of people, it's not just offensive,
22:40
Speaker 1: it's also illegal. You cannot have discriminatory animus in the workplace.
22:45
Speaker 1: It's just that simple, Ronnie. What do you advise your
22:48
Speaker 1: corporate clients to do here? I mean, there are there
22:52
Speaker 1: some best practices that some corporations, or some companies or
22:56
Speaker 1: some entities are doing that perhaps should be adopted by
23:00
Speaker 1: more others. Yes, that's a great question, Thank you for asking.
23:03
Speaker 1: I don't know how widespread these best practices are. Certainly
23:07
Speaker 1: when I work with my employer clients, we discuss it,
23:11
Speaker 1: and the first thing is to ask yourself, why is
23:13
Speaker 1: this happening? Was it just you know, one bad actor actress.
23:18
Speaker 1: If so, you know, terminating that person is sufficient, But
23:22
Speaker 1: usually it's not just one actor actress. Usually it's a
23:25
Speaker 1: group of people. So you need to address that in
23:29
Speaker 1: the workplace and figure out why these individuals are being hired.
23:33
Speaker 1: What kind of questions are you asking during the interview
23:36
Speaker 1: to help mitigate misogyny and gender discrimination? What kind of
23:40
Speaker 1: messaging and training are you providing the too employees. After
23:44
Speaker 1: someone that's terminated because of an you know, alleged harassment
23:48
Speaker 1: or actual harassment. It's not enough to simply send out
23:52
Speaker 1: an a p D or a notice company wide that
23:55
Speaker 1: says so and says no longer with us. Of course,
23:58
Speaker 1: you don't need to delineate this cifics in that communication,
24:02
Speaker 1: but there should be other communications afterwards that tell people,
24:06
Speaker 1: you know, when someone is terminated because of discrimination, we
24:12
Speaker 1: are going to determine whether or not that person was
24:14
Speaker 1: aided and embedded by others in the workplace. We're not
24:18
Speaker 1: going to stop it just simply, you know, giving out
24:21
Speaker 1: hush money to the victim and firing the person who
24:27
Speaker 1: was alleged to have done X or y. That is
24:30
Speaker 1: normally not enough. And then what measures are you taking
24:35
Speaker 1: to be proactive to protect the confidentiality of those individuals
24:38
Speaker 1: who complain, Because that is also a fear that I,
24:41
Speaker 1: you know, often hear about from others. I didn't want
24:44
Speaker 1: to go to HR because I was worried I would
24:46
Speaker 1: lose my job. I didn't want to go to HR
24:48
Speaker 1: because I was worried that they wouldn't keep it confidential. Well,
24:52
Speaker 1: these are you can train employees in HR on how
24:56
Speaker 1: to maintain confidentiality. Because I think from my practice I
25:00
Speaker 1: see that they often don't understand what that really means. Right, Well,
25:04
Speaker 1: it's very important stuff and we really appreciate you joining
25:07
Speaker 1: us talk about it. Ronnie I said home. They are
25:09
Speaker 1: managing partner at the Said Home Law Group talking to
25:11
Speaker 1: us about workplace toxicicity. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg
25:17
Speaker 1: Markets podcast. You can subscribe and listen to interviews with
25:21
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or whatever podcast platform you prefer. I'm Matt Miller.
25:26
Speaker 1: I'm on Twitter at Matt Miller. On Ball Sweeney, I'm
25:30
Speaker 1: on Twitter at pt Sweeney Before the podcast. You can
25:33
Speaker 1: always catch us worldwide at Bloomberg Radio