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A Dangerous Man · The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Pisha. Hannah, we have merch it's the cutest bright red
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• 0:15
  Speaker 2: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: The claims and opinions in this podcast are those of
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: the speaker and do not necessarily represent The Knife or
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: Exactly Right Media.
• 0:30
  Speaker 3: And I just remember opening that last message and I
• 0:34
  Speaker 3: immediately started crying because it was real and it was
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: my life.
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  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Knife. I'm Hannah Smith, I'm Patia Eaton,
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: and this week we're speaking with because Andre Rosa Cassandra
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: has been the victim of a stalker for years now,
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: and the escalation of this stalker is both shocking and
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: not because we know that stalkers can start to feel
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: emboldened as time passes. Yeah, we talk a lot on
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: the show about how it's hard to catch and stop
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: stalkers practically and legally. This story is no different, but
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: it also highlights how wrong things can go with an
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: investigation and how a victim can start to look like
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: the villain.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, Cassandra lives in a small New Mexico town,
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: and we're not going to say the name of where
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: she lives because things became so contentious with her case.
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: As a warning, we do talk about text messages that
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: Cassandra received, which are of a violent and sexual nature.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: Let's get into the interview.
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: My name is Cassandra and I've been working in my
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: little community for the last five years. Is a realtor,
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: and I'd say I'm a pretty regular gal. I'm seeing
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: no kids in my mid thirties, but yeah, I would
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: never expect that in the last five years I would
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: be in a place where I could even tell a
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: story like this. It was in twenty twenty is when
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: I decided to move back home. Before that, I was
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: living in El Paso. I was a restaurant manager. And
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: the reason I did decide to move back home was
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: for family reasons. At that time, my mom was diagnosed
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: with stage four breast cancer and she was a single mom,
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: and I just knew it was going to be really
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: hard for her to be going through her treatments and
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: still trying to maintain her household. And I was just
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: in a position where I could go home and really
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: support her. So that was very meaningful to me. I thought,
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: you know, I could go like, get a little serving job,
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: work hard, and still be able to support my mom
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: and take care of her. But with the quarantine, it
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: totally killed that plan, and so I had to pivot
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: into real estate. I was able to get my license
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: in so by October of twenty twenty, I was working
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: as a real chor.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: Cassandra was back home, living in her new Mexico town
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: for the first time in years. She was launching a
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: brand new career in real estate, which meant rebuilding her
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: connections from scratch and developing a marketing plan which mostly
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: focused on social media. For real estate agents nowadays, having
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: a social media presence is really not optional. It is
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: how they get their clients. People want to feel like
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: they already know you before they trust you with buying
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: or selling a home. In a lot of ways, Cassandra's
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: success depended on making herself and her contact information visible
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: to the public.
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: It was a lot of fun, and it definitely takes
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: a lot of dedication because you're doing that NonStop without
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: a lot of return for your effort to be honest
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: with you, So I did that for the first few months,
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: and I was getting pretty regular interactions until things kind
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: of got weird.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and tell us more about that sort of transition
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: and from Okay, I'm putting myself out there and I'm
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: getting some traction to something strange happening.
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: So I started getting messages in February of twenty twenty one,
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: and automatically it was inappropriate. So the first message I
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: got was telling me that they saw me on Facebook.
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  Speaker 3: They wanted help from me, that they had a loan
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: from money from their parents, but they solicited me for
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: sex in that same text, asking me if I was
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: sleep with them. I never answered back, and I just thought, Wow,
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  Speaker 3: I can't believe somebody would do that. I cannot believe
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: somebody would send a text like that. But I thought, Okay,
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  Speaker 3: you know it's twenty twenty one. Guys are crazy out there.
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  Speaker 3: There's the Internet. People see you online all the time.
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  Speaker 3: They can get my number.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, so you're getting a text on your phone, which
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: you know your phone number is public because you're trying
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: to advertise your services. But are you mainly advertising on
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: Facebook at that time? Is that why you believe that
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: they got your info from Facebook?
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  Speaker 3: Facebook Instagram. Those are the ways, at least in my
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: little town, that we really we connect with people. We
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: call it a Facebook community because if anybody's going to
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: find out what's happening in our town, it's going to
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: be through Facebook. So a lot of people that's how we,
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: you know, connect with one another.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: So when this person texted you, did they introduce themselves
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: and say I'm so and so or was it just
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: anonymous message?
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: They didn't give me a real name. It would always
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: be like hey, and then go off into it. I
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: saw you, you know, I want your help. I thought
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  Speaker 3: you were attractive. Would you sleep with me?
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  Speaker 1: Wow?
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  Speaker 3: And you don't know who it's coming from. I asked
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  Speaker 3: the other realtors, you know, can you trace this number?
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: Can you cross reference it? Can you check in your app?
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  Speaker 3: And I didn't go back to anyone. I really did
• 5:59
  Speaker 3: think that it was somebody messing with me, and they
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: would it would not be a regular occurrence. But it
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: was just a couple of weeks after that that I
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: got another message, and this time it said that they
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: were my Facebook friend named Robert, and in the message
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: they told me that their wife had cheated on them
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: with their best friend and that they wanted to kill themselves.
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: And so when I first started reading these, I was like, wow,
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: this is so intense, Like I thought maybe it could
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: be well I kind of already knew. I was like,
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  Speaker 3: I don't have a Facebook friend named Robert who would
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  Speaker 3: even tell me this type of thing. So I was like,
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  Speaker 3: this can't be somebody I really know. But I didn't
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  Speaker 3: know if it was like fake or not. I wasn't
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  Speaker 3: really on edge yet, so I told them, like, call
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: the police if you're thinking about killing yourself. I just
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: didn't know what to say. And it got weird because
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: they told me I need somebody to talk to, Cassandra.
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: I need somebody to talk to someone like you. And
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: I was like, this is just it's very bizarre, very weird.
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: Because that was also a fake.
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: Number, but it was a different number than the first number.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, it was a different number than the first number,
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  Speaker 3: and it was a fake number.
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  Speaker 2: When Cassandra says fake number, she means the number did
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: not trace back to a registered user. A registered phone
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: number with a cell phone carrier is traceable back to
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: a human being, but these numbers led nowhere, leading Cassandra
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: to believe that they were generated by an app. It's
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: kind of alarming actually, how easy it is to download
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: an app on your phone that allows you to text
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: from random numbers that aren't associated with you. And these
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: random numbers are really hard to trace unless you have
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: the phone they were sent from. Cassandra started to receive
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: regular text messages with unwanted sexually explicit content, and blocking
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: the phone numbers also didn't help, since each message came
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: from a new random number.
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  Speaker 3: And that's the key thing to all of this is
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: that they're always new random numbers, no caller ID. At
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: that time, I was still not thinking it was like
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: a huge deal, but I was like, I need to
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: document this. That was one thing I am very glad
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: about this whole process is that I documented everything as
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: well as I could. So I did make a police
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: report online. I think at that time there was three numbers.
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: By that time it had been messaging medium, so I
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  Speaker 3: included those. I made the report of what they said
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: because there was another number that texted me big booty.
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: So I was like, well, let me just throw it
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: in there because you never know. And man, I look
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: back at the police reports I've made, and literally all
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: they ever stay on there is that they took my
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: word that it was not a real number and anonymous,
• 8:44
  Speaker 3: and they concluded their investigation from day one.
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: It doesn't say like what they did to try to
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: figure out who this was or anything like that.
• 8:53
  Speaker 3: It literally says they did nothing, wow, that they took
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: my word that it was a fake number and that
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: concluded their investigation.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: We weren't able to get a hold of that initial
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: police report, so we don't actually know the exact reason
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: given as to why this wasn't looked into further, but
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: it started off what's not been the most amicable relationship
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: with Cassandra and her local police department. Cassandra said what
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: she felt then was simply she was scared. She asked
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: for help, and she didn't get it.
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  Speaker 3: I really thought that police would have my best interest
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: for me, so when nothing came about it, I was
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: just like, Okay, well, at least it's reported. At least
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: they know, and if it was serious, they would probably
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: try to look into it more. That's what I thought.
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: Honestly, did you talk with any real estate friends and
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: you know, had other people had experiences of weirdos reaching
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: out to them? I guess I'm trying to understand if
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: at this point, how you were understanding this, like, oh,
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: this happens to real estate agent. It's really annoying, but
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: it's harmless. Or was it scarier than that to you
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: at the time already?
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: I think it was. It was getting scary, but I
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: was still very naive to maybe the danger that I
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: was really in, or just maybe the obsession that somebody
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: had about me. But I did recognize that it's not
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: normal for somebody to say such extreme things to you.
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: It's not normal for somebody to be soliciting you for sex.
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: So I did know that something was wrong very early,
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: and I did ask the other realtors very early on.
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: At that time, I was with a rather large brokerage.
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: It was the biggest one in town, and it was
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: majority women, and you know a lot of women in
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: real estate are very beautiful women, and so I did ask,
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: and I would reach out to the association as a whole,
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: asking is anyone else getting inappropriate messages from numbers they
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: don't know, from numbers that are untraceable, And over all
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: the years, no, but he's ever said me too. Nobody.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: When you realize the police had sort of concluded their
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: investigation and weren't going to help you at that point,
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: what was your next step?
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: So that was like in February, and by March is
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: when I reported it. So from March until probably July
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: of twenty one, I had started then receiving not only
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: anonymous texts from random numbers, but then I would also
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: start receiving no caller ID phone calls. And it was
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: on those phone calls where I would hear somebody masturbating
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: on the phone, and I know, you're like, how can
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: you know it's that? But it was done so often
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: and it's such a disgusting thing to have happened to
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: you that you just kind of know.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: Cassandra believed the same person who had been texting her
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: was the person who was now calling her. It felt
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: like he was becoming emboldened and his actions were escalating.
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: But it was July of twenty one and I had
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: received another message from a phone number I didn't recognize,
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: and this one this time said basically saying that they
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: were my client. They told me that they liked my
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: ass when I was showing them a property, and they said,
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: I don't know if we can move forward with me
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: putting an offer because of what I've just told you.
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: I knew right away they were not my client. I
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: just never got any vibes like that from anyone I
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: was working with, and so I just knew that it
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: was this person who's been messing with me. And so
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: I told them, if you're my client, why don't I
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: have your number? And they said, what did I get
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: myself into. There's just one woman, Cassandra, and that one
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: woman is you, and I would give my left nut
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: to see you in red panties. And that's when I
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: was like, oh my gosh, like, yes, this person is crazy.
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: Whoever is messing with me is like next level weird.
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: And then I told them to stop messaging me, leave
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: me alone, and that's when they told me that they
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: wanted to marry me and have my babies. And then
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: after that is when they told me that I could
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: go to the authorities and that had no control and
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: there was nothing they would do for me, and that
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: if they wanted to rape me they could, that they
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: could schedule a showing, that they could go to an
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: open house, that they could rape me as many times
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: as they want. I would think. I was like even
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: at work at that time when I got that message,
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: I was showing a house. I had to go back
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: to the office and I just remember opening that last
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: message and I immediately started crying because it was real
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: and it was my life, and I think I tried
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: to deny it for so long that that was my.
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: Life, first of all. I mean, that's just so horrible
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: and terrifying. And I imagine as a realtory, part of
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: your job is going to these open houses and you
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: don't know who's going to walk through the door, and
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: so that's a really scary threat that this person is
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: watching you and obsessed with you this really horrible way
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: and threatening violence. Whenever they would call you and you
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: could tell that someone was masturbating, which is so disturbing,
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: did this person ever speak to you, Like, did you
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: ever hear their voice?
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: Sometimes they would they would call and pretend to be
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: a customer and then pretending to ask me regular questions,
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: and then they would say something disgusting out of nowhere,
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: like just throw it back to something sexual, and I
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: would hang up because he would fool me again. But
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: when it was just the masturbating for whatever reason, he
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: would already be doing it, and so you'd answer and
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: you're like hello, Hello, and then you're hearing this sound
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: and you're like, what is this sound? And then yeah,
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: that's the sound you know?
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: My god?
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but yeah, that's he had different techniques, I guess
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: you could say, right, different ways to terrorize me. It
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: wasn't just the text messages being anonymous. It wasn't just
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: the masturbating on the phone. It wasn't just the no
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: caller ID. It wasn't just pretending to be somebody who
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: needed help and then freaking me out by saying something
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: disgusting to me. And so of course when I got
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: the rape text messages, I went directly into the police
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: station by that point, and I think that was either
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: my second or third police report.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: And with these reports that you're continuing to file, as
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: this stalker's behavior is escalating, is the police response escalating
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: it all? Is their reaction to their reports changing only when.
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: I came to them with the text about going to
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: the police having no control in them raping me. But
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: the action was not equivalent to the threat in my opinion.
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: So what they did was they put a watch on
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: my house.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: What does that mean? They put a watch on your house?
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: Well, I never knew what it meant, right, because That's
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: all they told me is that we'll put a watch
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: on your home. So what that means is that they
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: have your home known is an address to be looked over,
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: is what I assume. And I assume that because there
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: was one time, randomly, for whatever reason, somebody was running
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: from the cops, and for whatever reason, they decided to
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: pull up to At that time, I was living with
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: my mom. Still, they pulled into my mom's driveway and
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: they got out of their car and they ran to
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: the backyard. And because my mom, my sister, and me,
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: we were all in the house and we knew I
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: had a stalker, we all got very scared and we
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: called the police. And the police came and they checked
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: the backyard and everywhere around, and they told us, Okay,
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: this is what happened. This man was running from cops.
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: He just happened to Polunteer driveway. We've already taken him
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: into custody. We do know that you have a watch
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: on your home. Can you tell me why. And so
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: my sister, because I was traumatized, I was crying. I
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: didn't know what was going on. I was super scared.
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: My sister told them how somebody had been stalking me,
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: somebody had been threatening to rape me, and that the
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: police had not helped me. And so I mean, I
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: do know that they did put a watch on my.
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: House, but that the officer didn't even know what it
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: was for. We know there's a watch in your house,
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: but why It's like, I don't know, I don't know
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: how it works. But that kind of makes you think like, well,
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: how serious are you taking this?
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: Then? Yeah?
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Like what good is this watch if you don't
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: know what you're looking for?
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: I mean, but if you can imagine just being in
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: my shoes, even thinking that something's being done for you
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: is just it means the world, right, because what resources
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: did I have at that time? Nothing?
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: Really at your job was anything done as far as
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: when you went to open houses, did someone come with you?
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: Was there anything put in place to help you feel safer?
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: There was more like safety protocols that I had to
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: take more initiative on if I was ever at the
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: office alone and had to remain locked at all times,
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: which I still do to this day if I'm ever
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: in an office, no showings with people I don't know
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: by myself. For a long time, I didn't do evening
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: without either somebody on the phone or somebody with me.
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: Even to this day, I really don't like working with men.
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: I don't know. It makes me very uncomfortable and I
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: feel really horrible, But it's just one of those effects
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: of what's happened to me. And I did get a
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: constilled carry license, not because I'm trying to assume anyone
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: and everyone's my stalker, but because I had real fear
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: of somebody trying to take control of me physically.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: Cassandra became hyper aware of her environment, always on the alert.
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: For example, when she had to meet a client in
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: person to show a house, she was very cautious, confirming
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: their identity before meeting in person, and often having someone
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: else come with her. She continued to live and work
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: this way for months, and then the months turned to years,
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: and still the texts and the phone calls kept coming.
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: Sometimes it would be for mone, so I wouldn't hear
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: from him, but he would always pop back up into
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: my life. And so it just happened to be that
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: I got a listing in the next town over, and
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: for whatever reason, somebody decided to vandalize that property. And
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: I do really think it was just random. I don't
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: think these two things are connected. But what had happened
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: was they went and took like a lot of the
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: medals out of like the electrical stuff and out of
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: like the plumbing. Right. So it was a home that
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: was already under contract that seller needed to sell, so
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: we had to get those repairs done. So because of that,
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: there were a few contractors I had to contact in
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: order to get quotes for the work. So I reached
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: out to the contractors I would need, and I called
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: one of the contractors and I called into the office.
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: And when I called into the office, I spoke to
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: the office lady, and the lady told me that she would,
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: you know, let one of her employees know that they
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: would reach out to me to set up that time
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: for a quote.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: And this is a company that you had worked with before,
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: you had some level of familiarity with them.
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: I had never worked with them, but I had known
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: about them because of their online presence. Like I said,
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: we're a Facebook community, so they had a pretty strong
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: Facebook presence, and they also had really good reviews. Okay,
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: that's another thing, is realtor's If we're going to suggest
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: a service provider which is really not a great idea,
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: because you know, you want your customers to be choosing
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: who they've worked with because there's liability in everything. So
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: of course I'm going to look for what I think
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: is that a reputable company. So within me calling the
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: office and you know, setting up a quote, within not
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: even a minute, I mean it was immediate. I get
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: a text on my phone and it's from a person
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: who did work there. But this person had previously messaged
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: me about real estate over the last year. I'm always
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: uncomfortable about guys who like me and I don't know them,
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: and so he had mentioned in those previous texts about
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: like some charity work I had done. I used to
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: do work for Losagnulo, and so I mean he was
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: familiar enough with me to even ask about that kind
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: of stuff.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: Maybe because of the stalker she'd been dealing with, Cassandra
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: was on high alert when interacting with men in general,
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: and she noticed that she'd previously texted with this guy.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: I'm going to call him Chris, even though that's not
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: his real name. Looking at past texts with Chris, she
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: noticed heep been a little flirty. He probably had a
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: crush on her, but it didn't seem like that big
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: of a deal. So she scheduled him to do the
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: repair work on the rental property, and she said he
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: did a great job.
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: He gave me a discount immediately, so it kind of
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: opened up that personal relationship, right because then I'm like, oh, well,
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: what a nice man. Then when he came to do
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: the work, he gave me a gift card, so it's like,
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: oh wow, you know, he really appreciates his custom. So
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: I did need a stove for that same property. I
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: posted on Facebook in search of a you stove because
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: I was going to get it for my sellar. I
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: wasn't going to make him pay for it. I was
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: going to do that all my own. And so I
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: was like, I got to find a U stove. Let
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: me go to Facebook. I know somebody on there will
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: have one. So I posted, and not even within five minutes,
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: that man messages me telling me that hey, I saw
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: that you needed a stove. If you can find one,
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: I can help you put it in.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: She did find a stove, and true to his word,
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: Chris helped her install it. It took a couple of
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: days and Cassandra and Chris got to chatting and she
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: says she ended up being kind of interested in him.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: She thought he was cute from the.
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: First moment I remember seeing him, I thought he was
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: really attractive, and he was kind to me, and he
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: was helpful, And when you're a single woman who nobody
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: is helping you, I mean, that's a way to really
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: like look great in someone's eyes, you know. So to me,
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: I was like, Wow, this guy's a really nice guy.
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: But then there were also little red flags that I
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: was like, is he nice because he's a nice guy,
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: or is he nice because he wants something from me?
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: So with all the gifts, with all the compliments, with
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: trying to get my attention all the time, you know,
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: I've dated a lot of guys where you really do
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: need to see their actions before you can determine whether
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: somebody is an appropriate fit for you. And you know,
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: just talking to somebody a few weeks is not enough time.
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: I've always had a lot of boundaries. I've always had
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: a lot of walls up, and so I even though
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: I really liked him, I wanted maybe to pursue more,
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: but I needed to know more about him first.
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, can you describe to us or at least howe
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: very much you feel comfortable, Like what did he look like?
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: How did he carry himself? How did he dress?
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: He's just a very regular guy. I mean, he's just
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: somebody that you wouldn't think twice about interacting with. You know,
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: he's just really a nice looking guy to be honest
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: with you, and the way he presents himself is very
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: like I almost want to say soft, like honestly somebody
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: who's just a really kind person. But what I was
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: thinking was, this man's always asking me questions. He's always
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: trying to talk to me, but he won't ask me
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: on a date. That's kind of weird. He's a decent
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: looking man, he's got a good business. Why is he
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: not asking me out? If he is finding reasons to
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: talk to me all the time. So I thought he
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: was a married man. I really did. I thought he's married,
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: he's got a family or something, and he's trying to
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: be a little sneaky with me to see if all
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: all out. I wanted to know more about him. All
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: I knew was the first name he was going by,
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: and so I was really starting to like him. But
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: I wanted to know more about him. One if he
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: was married and too just you know what his past was.
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: It wasn't until that evening when he helped me. We
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: finished the stove and everything, and I was talking to
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: some friends and also a guy friend, and I was like, Hey,
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: do you guys know this guy in his last name
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: or his business or anything? And my friends were like, no,
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: not really. And then I asked my guy friend and
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: he was like, no, but look up his number. Use
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: this reverse phone number. Look up and when I use
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: one of mine, it didn't give me his last name,
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: but when I used that one, it gave me the
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: first name and the last name.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: Was that the same name that he had given you?
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: Absolutely? Not. No.
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: So you're with someone who's like, you need to run
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: this phone number through this reverse number search. You do that,
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: and you come up with a name that, upon searching,
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: is this person that you've been interacting with, But it's
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: not the name that he gave you. And what do
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: you find when you search his name? What comes up?
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: One of the first things that come up is an
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: article about that person and being wanted for attempted murder. Wow.
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: He had tried to to kill his girlfriend at the time,
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: and he stabbed her so many times, fled to another
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: city before they were able to capture him.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: And at the point that you're reading this article, is
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: he still wanted or is it in the past, And
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: he had been apprehended since the article was written.
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so at the time that I was reading the
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: article was many many years later, and he had actually
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: already been apprehended and he had been tried and convicted
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: for the attempted murder.
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: Did it say that he had served prison time anything
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: like that?
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: So for that, he did serve three years in just
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: three yards out on probation, and that was already his
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: second offense.
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: What else did you discover after this?
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: I saw the sex registry and on there it says
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: he's a registered sex offender for second or great criminal penetration.
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: So that's a different offense from the attempted murder. So
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: there's two women he's attacked at two different times. They
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: were like Facebook news articles, right, and so people can
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: comment on them. So one of his previous victims, the
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: one before the girlfriend, had commented that she didn't even
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: know him and that he raped her and stalked her afterwards.
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: And so from there, when I read those things, Okay,
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: it's not like I ever wanted to put these things together,
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: but to not would be a grave mistake. This person
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: never went by his name that's on the registry. He's
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: going by a totally different name. He never ever disclosed
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: to me that he is a registered sex offender, and
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: he was doing work on a home. His employer didn't
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: disclose that to me either. I have been stalked for
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: five years, threatened to rape, and then here I am
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: with this man who will not leave me alone, who
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: is always finding reasons to be around me, who's giving
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: me gifts, and who has never told me that he
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: is riped and tried to kill somebody.
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: Cassandra was shocked and horrified to find out that Chris,
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: the man who she'd hoped to date and who worked
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: at this reputable company around town, was a convicted criminal
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: who had violently attacked two women in his past. Cassandra
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: found this out in January of twenty twenty five, and
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: for context, she had been getting unsolicited phone calls and
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: texts with threats of violence since February of twenty twenty one,
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: and suddenly she had this feeling that it was the
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: same guy that Chris was the one who'd been harassing
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: her for almost four years. When she looked at his
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: flirty texts. They felt eerily familiar.
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: It's not that I one hundred percent knew he was
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: my stalker. It was that this was the first time
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: anybody had ever come into my life that made me
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: fear for my life in that manner.
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: What is your level of contact with him during that
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: time and how do you navigate that once you understand
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: him to be an incredibly dangerous person.
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: It was constant, he would not leave me alone, and
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: that was another reason why I was like, this man
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: is texting me all the time, constantly. I don't think
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: anybody can truly understand how horrified, how discussed, and how
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: scared I was for my life. When I say I
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: was in fear for my life, there's just no exaggeration
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: to that. That's a fact. I knew that this man
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: is a smart man. He's a manipulative man. And I
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: knew that just removing myself and just going straight to
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: the police would not be a smart idea. I was
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: also worried that would they believe me, and so I
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: decided and I told my girlfriends right away in a
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: group text, and I called my dad, and I called
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: my sister and me as soon as I put that
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: together in my mind, I'd started telling people I think
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: I know who my stalker is, or I believe I've
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: figured out who my stalker is. And of course they
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: say why, and I say, because of his interactions with me,
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: of the way he's obsessed, because of his history, Because
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: I've never ever been around anyone who's ever made me
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: feel like this.
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: What Cassandra did next, the steps that she took, could
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: be confusing at face value, even controversial, and it would
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: honestly cause a lot of problems for her later because
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: what she did next is not the textbook reaction that
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: you might expect from someone afraid for their life. But
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: I'd argue that you actually don't know what you would
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: do unless you were in that situation. She'd been hyper
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: vigilant for four years. She'd been looking over her shoulder.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: She'd been dealing with someone who was sending her threats
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: of rape consistently for four years. She'd been scared, and
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: she'd asked for help from the multiple times, and she
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: felt like she hadn't gotten any. Cassandra says she felt
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: like if she just cut off contact with Chris, if
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: she ghosted him, she wasn't sure what he would do,
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: and that really terrified her, so she wanted to figure
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: out a way to extricate herself from the conversation without
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: letting him know that she believed he was her stalker.
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: And so from that day, I probably talked to him
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: for like the next five or six days. And when
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: I say talked to him, I mean that I no
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: longer was trying to meet up with him in person.
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: That was never an option again, and that was frustrating
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: for him. I was causing a lot of friction by
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: pretending to be jealous, by saying he liked other people,
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: by saying he was taking too long to message me back,
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: just being as chaotic as possible, because what I wanted
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: him to feel like is that if something was wrong
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: between us, it's not because I knew something was wrong
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: with him.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: So you were sort of coming up with conflicts to
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: have with him to get him away from you without
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: letting him know that you knew who he was.
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: Yes, it was very important to me that he did
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: not know that I knew he was my stalker.
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: And I don't know if you're comfortable seeing this, but
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: up until this point, you know, because you had seen
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: him in person. Had you, guys, ever engaged in any
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: sort of like romantic relationship.
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: No, I'm so grateful for that. You don't even understand
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: how mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually. I am grateful that I
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: never held his hand, that I never kissed him, that
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: if I gave him a hug, it was only ever
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: a side hug. Just knowing that he never physically got
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: to have any emotional intimacy with me other than those
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: messages is a triumph for me. And so through that
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: there's messages. Me and him probably started messaging pretty often
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: just within that like first week before I found out
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: that he was my stalker. And in between that little
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: bit of time, we have twelve hundred messages together. Over
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: twelve hundred messages. That is so excessive, And it was
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: just me constantly having to deal with the emotional baggage
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: of putting up this front. It came to a day
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: to where I finally told him, like, I don't want
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: to talk to you anymore. You're not giving me the
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: attention that I want, and so I'm just going to
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: block you, because to me, that was the best way
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: to put it.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: The next day, Cassandra went to the Sheriff's department. She
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: said she had a personal connection with an under sheriff there,
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: which made her feel more comfortable coming forward with something
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: so vulnerable.
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: And I went to him and I told him, this
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: is the reason why I believe this man could be
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: the stalker, and I gave him text messages. I told
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: him that it was his behavior, and I was very upfront.
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: I told him we had been talking that because we
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: had been talking, I had to continue talking to them
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: once I did put two and two together, because I
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: was in fear for my life. When I reported to him,
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: he told me he knew about that man. He knew
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: about that man, that he knew that that man had
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: caused trouble in the community, that even he knew recently
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: about some issues he was having because he had possibly
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: been harassing another woman in another social network. And so
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: he seemed like he believed me. And so he said, Okay, well,
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: since he's a sex offender, I'm going to give this
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: to the investigator to handle, because she's the one who
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: should be handling it.
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: At first, it seemed to Cassandra like her case was
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: being taken seriously and that something would be done. But
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: because Chris was a paroled sex offender. This case had
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: to be transferred to the local police department and they
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: had to coordinate with his parole officer. So Cassandra got
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: a call from a detective at her local police department,
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: and this is when things began to go downhill for her.
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: When she called me, she told me to tell her
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: my story, and I did the same story I'm telling
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: you here today, and I did mention that I'm a believer.
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: I believe in God and I believe in Jesus Christ.
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: I do believe that, you know, the Holy Spirit protecting
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: me from this man by being able to put these
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: things together. But it's not like the behavior and his
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: actions weren't there. So she told me that day, she
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: told me that because he was on Facebook and he
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: shouldn't be, because he's a Pearl sex offender, that she
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: could have him arrested. That she was going to get
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: with his parole officer and that they would get together
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: to go through his phone and to have him arrested.
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: Did I want her to continue with that? To me,
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: it was like, finally, finally, somebody's going to help me.
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: There's going to be some action. This person has been
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: harassing me, causing me so much harm for so many years.
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: This person has a really bad history. The cops are
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: already aware of him, he's already under their supervision. Finally,
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: so she told me that she would get with the
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: parole officer, that they would work on getting him arrested.
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: That it was Friday, so she would give me a
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: call later on that afternoon, and I told her please,
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: because I want to know how much I will be involved,
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: because I don't want him to know it's me that
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: I'm in fear of my life. She asked me if
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: I wanted her to ask him if he was my stalker,
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: and I told her, no, I don't want you to
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: ask him that I am afraid of him. I'm in
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: fear of my life, and I don't want him to
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: know it's me accusing him. And so the weekend passed by,
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: and I think I waited until the following Tuesday, and
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: I followed up. So she reached out to me, and
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: from there that's when the story started to change little
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: by little. And so from there she said, oh, well,
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: you know, I have to get with his parole officer.
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: She hasn't brought him in. I have to see what's
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: going on with that. I think she's sick. She's usually
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: on top of things, you know. Another week goes by,
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: I'm asking questions again, still getting a run around. They
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: haven't brought him in, haven't looked through his phone, so
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: I'm just taking her word that she's helping me.
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: We have a copy of the detective's report. In it,
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: she notes that she told Cassandra on the phone call
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: that the tech screenshots were not evidenced that Chris was
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: her stalker. She says she also informed Cassandra that she
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: would have to contact Chris's probation officer, and then if
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: it were true that he had a Facebook profile, that
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: would be a violation of his parole. But she also
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: states that they can't do anything without evidence. As time
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: ticked by, Cassandra was losing faith that the police department
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: was taking her claim seriously. Were they taking appropriate action
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: to stop someone who she believed had been threatening to
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: rape her.
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: So there comes a day where I think it's already
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: almost two full weeks and nothing's being done. And I
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: told her that I regretted coming to them because I
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: felt like they weren't helping me. And that's when she
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: called me and she told me that she was going
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: to get with the pearole officer again to find out
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: what's going on, that they do have to go through
• 38:04
  Speaker 3: his phone, that they can't just accuse him of anything,
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: and that she would have to wait and see what
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: happens with that. And I said, well, you told me
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: that he could be arrested, and I feel like, if
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: you guys don't help me, there's going to be nothing
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: for me to do. And I really do believe that he's,
• 38:19
  Speaker 3: you know, the person that's been doing this to me,
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: for y'all to look into him, and I told her,
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: I feel like, if y'all don't help me, the only
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: recourse I have to keep myself safe is to come
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: forward and let people know that he's a danger. And
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: she told me that she knows he hates public humiliation,
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: that his other victims have come forward in the past,
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: and that she thought he was a changed man. And
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: so I had a bad feeling about her, and I
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: knew that nothing was going to get done. And so
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: the following morning again she told me she was going
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: to reach out to the parole officer. Within like twenty minutes,
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: she told me that they had already brought him in
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: they looked through his and that there was no evidence
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: in nothing they could do. So when she told me
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: there was nothing they could do, I knew there was
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: something that I should do. And so what I did
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: is I made a post. I made a Facebook post.
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: I never name him. My community was already aware I
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: have a stalker. I'm a realtor and I let people
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: know and I've had somebody stalking me. I would post
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: the messages because I'm not going to let somebody ruin
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: my life without people watching over me. So when the
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: sheriffs didn't help me, my first post was just something
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: pretty basic, saying that I found out who my stalker
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: was and that I went to the sheriffs and they
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: would not help me. And so the following day I
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: made another post. This one was more specific and it
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: included the message where he threatened to rape me. But
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: in the post, I never name him, but I just
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: said that this person was a registered sex offender, that
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: the sheriffs were not helping me even though I went
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: to them, that this person hides behind their business and
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: that they're a very dangerous person. And really that's all
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: I had to put because within like just a couple hours.
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: There was tons of shares, there was tons of comments
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: because people had put together through those details who this
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: person was, and because he has such a heinous history,
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: people got very angry with him. I never ever asked
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: anyone to do anything on my behalf. All I wanted
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: to do is to notify people that I had no help.
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: And so he started receiving death threats from people, So
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: he says, because who even knows. But that's all it
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: took was him saying that he went to the sheriffs
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: and he served me with the restraining order that same day.
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: If it seems unbelievable that, after everything, Cassandra is the
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: one who gets slapped with a restraining order, there's even
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: more that's mind blowing about this. After Cassandra felt that
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: her local police department was not taking action to help her,
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: her relationship with them totally devolved. She became outspoken in
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: her criticism of the police department, and eventually they closed
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: her case. Things got so bad that it's hard to
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: know how to interpret that. Did they close the case
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: due to lack of evidence or potentially out of spite
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: they did not like that Cassandra had gone public with
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: her story and that she was saying negative things about
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: both the police Department and the Sheriff's office on Facebook.
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: As Cassandra said previously, this was a Facebook community and
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: people were outraged on her behalf. And even though she
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: didn't name her stocker on Facebook, people in the community
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: put two and two together and some people figured out
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: who she was talking about, and now Chris had a
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: reason to claim that Cassandra was harassing him. Additionally, all
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: of those text messages that she'd sent him back when
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: she was trying to carefully extricate herself from the conversation
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: with him, at face value, they could appear like a
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: woman who was obsessed with him. Regardless, Cassandra said, the
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: police department reached out to her and tried to make
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: amends and repair their relationship, but according to her, their
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: efforts were not long lasting or helpful, and nothing was
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: really resolved. We reached out to the police department for
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: comment on this story and have not heard back.
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: I was receiving phone calls from the Sheriff's apartment in
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: the Police Department after I made that post that same day,
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: because it just blew up. Everybody was reading it, everybody
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: was sharing it. I guess people were interacting because of
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: it or having responses because of it. So what ended
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: up happening was they were trying to get a hold
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: of me. The Sheriff's is calling me because I guess
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: they did not like the way that the community was
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: reacting to the way they handled it. Investigator called me
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: saying that she had to take care of it if
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: I wanted their help. I initially said, I don't want
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: their help because they told me that they weren't going
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: to help me, So I said, why would I want
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: your help now, And because they served me with the
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: restraining order, I told them I wanted to speak with
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: an attorney first because I was scared. But on that
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: same conversation, I told her I wanted to speak with
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: an attorney because of how she never collected any evidence
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: for me, how she never brought me in to talk
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: to me, how she never really even investigated is why
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: I didn't want to talk to her. And I told her,
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: I do want y'all to investigate. I just don't want
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: your help.
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: And so all of that is taking place in what
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: the summer of this past year.
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: No, all of it was taking place in February.
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: And March February in March, and where does it all
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: stand right now? Because it seems like you did everything
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: that we quote like tell not we Hannah and I,
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: but like society is like, well, if they had just
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: reported it, and if they had just documented it, but
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: you did all of that and you didn't get the
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: help that you were looking for. Where does it all
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: stand right now?
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: Well, things got a lot worse because I went to
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: the police department and I met with a detective. Detective
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: took information and pretended like he was actually going to investigate.
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: But over the next like probably three months, I would
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: follow up with him. I would ask him, Hey, have
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: you looked into these numbers? Have you tried to access
• 44:25
  Speaker 3: the Apple ID? Can you subpoena for real information? And
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: he just always would tell me it'll take more time,
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: I'm waiting on phone records. Honestly, I think he was
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: lying to me the whole time. So what ended up
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: happening was I decided to share my story on a
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: pretty big podcast and so through that, the Lieutenant governor
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: of the state actually reached out to me.
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: That's right, The Lieutenant governor's office got involved with this
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: after Cassandra told her story on a big podcast, and
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: because of that, we actually have access to emails that
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: relay conversations between the Lieutenant Governor's office and the police
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: department about Cassandra and her case, and they are very
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: illuminating as to how bad things got.
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: It is clear that.
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: Cassandra was not a well liked person at her local
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: police department. One email states when a detective was asked
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: about Cassandra, he claimed she consistently lied, screamed, and cussed
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: at officers. The main detective, the one Cassandra made her
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: initial report to once she felt she'd identified her stalker
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: as Chris. That detective told someone in the Lieutenant Governor's
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: office flat out that she did not believe Cassandra's story.
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: She also said that Cassandra had no evidence except her
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: claim that the Holy Spirit told her that this man
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: was her stalker. She claimed that she offered to help Cassandra,
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: but Cassandra was hesitant to have her name listed on
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: the report, which is true, and so she closed the case. Now,
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: to give this police department the benefit of the doubt here,
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: it is it is true that Cassandra has no fool
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: proof evidence proving that this man Chris is the same
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: man who has been stalking her for four years, and
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: the police should not just go around arresting people without cause.
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: But I also have to wonder how did Cassandra become
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: such a hated person in this department, and were the
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: detectives letting their personal feelings about her impact the case.
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: How hard had they really tried? Because to me, Cassandra
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: has a compelling theory that this man is her stalker,
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: and she has a lot to back up that theory
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: enough to where I think it should be looked into.
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: She has saved many, many messages from the random numbers
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: that have harassed her for years, and she has compared
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: those messages to Chris's verifiable cell phone and the messages
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: that he sent, and a lot of them are very similar.
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: The phrasing he uses, the content they sound alike. Cassandra
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: also looked up Chris's cell phone number again, the real
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: number registered to his name on a site called tellos
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: dot com, and his number has multiple complaints of harassment
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: against women connected to it. Someone from the Lieutenant Governor's
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: office verified that that was true. Additionally, when Cassandra met
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: Chris in person and they began texting. The mysterious and
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: harassing random text messages that she'd been getting for years
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: suddenly stopped. That timing was interesting to her that along
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: with the allegations that he'd been using Facebook, which she
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: clarified that he had been using his company's Facebook account,
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: but he had reached out to Cassandra multiple times on Facebook,
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: and using Facebook was a violation of his parole, So
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: wouldn't that be enough probable cause to search his phone
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: and computer. It is noted in an email that at
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: some point Chris's phone was searched, not by the police department,
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: but by his parole officer, and it stated that nothing
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: was found, no more details than that, And I have
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: to wonder how deep was this search? Did they know
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: what apps to look for? And what if he had
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: deleted the apps? Did they look through his app store
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: history to see what apps he had downloaded and deleted.
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: There's not a lot of information about what exactly they searched.
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: All of this to me begs the question what kind
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: of victim? Do police departments have a responsibility to help?
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: Just the ones they like or everybody? Because instead of
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: looking into Cassandra's case, something completely bizarre happened. They charged
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: her with harassment. They said she had been harassing Chris.
• 48:40
  Speaker 3: And I was arrested in August and spent three days
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: in jail.
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, you spent three days in jail. What
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: was the charge?
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: It was a charge of harassment and they threw me
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: in jail for harassment. That's not a normal thing to do.
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: We have a copy of the arrest record. In August
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: of twenty twenty five, Cassandra was charged with harassment and arrested.
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: As far as we can tell, there was no additional
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: inciting incident that led to this arrest, and the harassment
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: charges came from Cassandra repeatedly claiming that Chris was her stoker.
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's also, like, what could be scarier than to
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: think that while you were just trying to protect yourself
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: from someone else, the other powers that be, like the
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: police department, sheriff's department, is actively working against you and
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: doing that.
• 49:37
  Speaker 3: So you can imagine as I'm like being taken to jail,
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: just the total shock I was in. Oh, but I
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: did not cry. I did not cry, and I was
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: not scared because I one hundred percent knew that it
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: was retaliation. I knew that I was not a harasser.
• 49:55
  Speaker 3: I knew that I had not made contact with that
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: man since I blocked him in jan For the last
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: four months, I've been trying to get myself out of
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: that charge, and it was difficult, but I really do
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: believe they thought they were going to be able to
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: get me with that charge, and so I had to
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: change attorneys three times before I found an attorney who
• 50:15
  Speaker 3: was not going to try and make me take a
• 50:17
  Speaker 3: plea deal. And so it wasn't until that last attorney
• 50:20
  Speaker 3: that the DA automatically dropped the charges dismissed him as
• 50:24
  Speaker 3: soon as they saw the attorney's name on the docket.
• 50:27
  Speaker 3: That should tell you a lot.
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: How much have you spent defending yourself against this charge?
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: Ten thousand dollars?
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: Wow? Wow, that is so much money. Yeah, And I mean,
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: we believe you. I believe you.
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: You know, it's horrible, and it's clear that this guy
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: is also used to navigating the criminal justice system and
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: is smart about it.
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: But the other thing is I'm just curious, like, from
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: a legal standpoint, it seems like there's a big barrier
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: that could the evidence hold up in court because you
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: have the text from what you you know, whateveryone recognize
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: this is his number, his registered number. You have his
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: history of violence. But is there anything evidentiary that can
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: connect him to these other phone calls and text messages
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: from these untraceable numbers that you know of.
• 51:17
  Speaker 3: I believe if an actual detective looked into it, they
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: would because there's a lot of the way he would
• 51:24
  Speaker 3: spell things, the way he would like use grammar and punctuation.
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: There's a lot that are similar. And even the detective
• 51:32
  Speaker 3: even on his report, he says that they do seem similar,
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: the two text messages. But what really kind of made
• 51:40
  Speaker 3: me sick to my stomach one time was I always
• 51:42
  Speaker 3: remember that message where he said he wanted to marry
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: me and have babies. When I was interacting with this
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: person over that week, we were not talking about family
• 51:52
  Speaker 3: or anything like that. I just randomly said, like, hey,
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: what's your four or five year plan? You know, like
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: talking about like what do you want for yourself? I
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: was sinking business wise or something, you know, and he
• 52:02
  Speaker 3: said to have a wife named Cassandra and his last
• 52:05
  Speaker 3: name in a baby.
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: He said this to you in person in text, in text, but.
• 52:10
  Speaker 3: We may be been talking not even a week yet, Like,
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: I mean, you don't say that to a woman. Even
• 52:17
  Speaker 3: the way he interacted with me, Like he remembers a
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: time that we met at a toy run and I
• 52:23
  Speaker 3: don't even remember it, and that's something significant for him.
• 52:28
  Speaker 3: And then he just weird stuff, like really creepy stuff,
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: like how he one time he told me like that
• 52:34
  Speaker 3: he liked that I didn't remember that it was him
• 52:37
  Speaker 3: and that I came off like it's a cold bitch
• 52:40
  Speaker 3: because he wanted to win me over or like change me,
• 52:43
  Speaker 3: and like, I just really believe that the evidence is
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: all there. And to me, I've been stalked for five years. Okay,
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: you're telling me it can't be this man, So why
• 52:53
  Speaker 3: won't you find out who it is? Especially because I'm
• 52:57
  Speaker 3: still being stalked. What woman should have to endure five
• 53:02
  Speaker 3: years of threats of rape? Why can I not rely
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: on the police department, the Sheriff's apartment, or the state
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: police to look into these numbers when I have actual
• 53:14
  Speaker 3: threats of violence against me. Also, I am in the
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: real estate community. This is not just something that's affecting me.
• 53:23
  Speaker 3: This is affecting the community. This is a professional job
• 53:28
  Speaker 3: that affects everyone why are they not taking this as
• 53:32
  Speaker 3: a public safety issue? And another thing I like to
• 53:35
  Speaker 3: say is that this person is a pearled sex offender
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: who does not have to report the name they go by.
• 53:42
  Speaker 3: To me, I don't just see my issue as dealing
• 53:46
  Speaker 3: with just this person who's caused me harm. I see
• 53:49
  Speaker 3: my issue as dealing with the system that is enabled
• 53:53
  Speaker 3: this person to possibly live a life without any restraint,
• 53:57
  Speaker 3: even though they should be under extreme supervision. And so
• 54:03
  Speaker 3: that's the real issue that I have. My issue is
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: that I'm living in an unsafe community where I can't
• 54:10
  Speaker 3: even report the violence that's happening to me.
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it is unbelievable. One thing we haven't
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: talked about yet is that you did reach out to
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: his other victims. Can you tell us about that?
• 54:25
  Speaker 3: So when I first came out on Facebook at the
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: beginning of the year, his victims reached out to me
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: because he's showing up again, and so I spoke with
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: his victim that he attempted to murder. She still lives
• 54:40
  Speaker 3: in our community as well. She still battles this every
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: day too, these poor women. In March of twenty twenty four,
• 54:48
  Speaker 3: she did try to get a restraining order on him,
• 54:50
  Speaker 3: and the courts denied it. Somebody had poisoned her dog.
• 54:53
  Speaker 3: He was driving by her kids' school, and somebody vandalized
• 54:56
  Speaker 3: her car, and the courts still denied training order. Even
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: though the best part of his stipulations is to have
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: no contact with her. They just will not consider anything
• 55:07
  Speaker 3: he does is wrong, I guess. And she's also told
• 55:12
  Speaker 3: me that she has judgments that because she followed the
• 55:15
  Speaker 3: civil suit against him, and she has like a ton
• 55:19
  Speaker 3: of monetary damages that have been awarded to her because
• 55:22
  Speaker 3: of this, and he's never paid a dime. He's over
• 55:25
  Speaker 3: here hiding behind his business and pretending to be a
• 55:29
  Speaker 3: rich person. I just don't understand how he's had no
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: repercussions whatsoever. And I feel for her so bad. And
• 55:37
  Speaker 3: the other victim that he did rape, she told me
• 55:40
  Speaker 3: about the violent attack, and she did have to move
• 55:44
  Speaker 3: out of state because he was still stalking her and
• 55:47
  Speaker 3: nobody would do anything.
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: It's horrible if it happens to one person, and to
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: learn that it's happened to multiple people with the same offender,
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: it's surprising, you know, it's very scary because obviously you
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: would think, at least you know from my civilian perspective, Well,
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: you should have more than enough information to know that
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: this is a very dangerous person and that you should
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: listen to the people who are shouting from the rooftops
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: that they're being threatened by him, because you know, I
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: don't know the stats in front of me, but a
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: crime that violent, I don't think it's probably unlikely for
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: people to commit crimes again, or for there to be
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: an escalation.
• 56:30
  Speaker 3: I guess.
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: Just a follow up question I have, what is his
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: role in this company that you reached out to? Is
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: he like a higher up there? Is he a contractor?
• 56:38
  Speaker 3: Like?
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: What can you tell me about him professionally?
• 56:42
  Speaker 3: He does own that company, so it's a shield. There's
• 56:46
  Speaker 3: people in the community that shield him too. He hides
• 56:50
  Speaker 3: behind his nickname so people can't just google it and
• 56:54
  Speaker 3: see that. You know, the man who owns that company
• 56:57
  Speaker 3: is a registered sex offenner. I think that's scary. This
• 57:01
  Speaker 3: person was going into homes like probably still is not
• 57:05
  Speaker 3: giving notice and his parole officers now and there was
• 57:08
  Speaker 3: no consequences about that.
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: So as of today, you know, we're speaking with you
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: mid December twenty twenty five, he's out and about in
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: the world.
• 57:18
  Speaker 3: Yes, and of course I'm alleging that it is this person,
• 57:21
  Speaker 3: you know, but there's a lot that has made me
• 57:26
  Speaker 3: weary for my safety and made me suspicious to where
• 57:30
  Speaker 3: I did report him to police, and I think it's
• 57:33
  Speaker 3: a reasonable expectation for them to have had a way
• 57:37
  Speaker 3: better investigation on him. So I did file notice of
• 57:42
  Speaker 3: tort to sue, and so I have tort notices out
• 57:47
  Speaker 3: with the county, with the city, with the sheriff Department,
• 57:50
  Speaker 3: the police Department, State of New Mexico, Department of Corrections,
• 57:53
  Speaker 3: the New Mexico State Police. Because there should be accountability.
• 57:58
  Speaker 3: Officers should not be rogue like this in the state.
• 58:02
  Speaker 3: There needs to be accountability. There needs to be more oversight.
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the idea that you could be victimized
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: by someone. I mean, yes, it's alleged, but like, you
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: believe this to be true, and this is your story,
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: and you're going to police, and then you know, to
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: go in thinking someone's about to help you and to
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: be arrested. Yeah, it's such an incredible violation of trust.
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: I totally see where you're coming from, even though I
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: do think it's sad.
• 58:31
  Speaker 3: And I think time will tell for sure, and I
• 58:35
  Speaker 3: think as a woman, the most important thing you can
• 58:37
  Speaker 3: do is to believe in yourself and to try to
• 58:41
  Speaker 3: keep yourself safe even when nobody else is helping you.
• 58:44
  Speaker 3: So I think that's the most important thing. Because it's
• 58:47
  Speaker 3: a victim, you're going to be isolated, you're going to
• 58:51
  Speaker 3: be silenced, and sometimes even when you go to the
• 58:54
  Speaker 3: proper authorities, they might punish you. But don't give up.
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: Wow, that was such an interesting conversation with Cassandra and
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: something you and I talk about when we go into
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: stories like hers, where you have this person who has
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: been victimized, She is being stalked, has been stoked, and
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: that is a very scary situation to be in. And
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: you know, she is very valid in her fear and
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: anger around how the case was handled, at least from
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: her perception of that.
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: I mean, if someone were threatening you for years, you
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: can imagine how eventually that would make you feel so enraged.
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: It would make me feel enraged, would make me feel unsafe,
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: And also just like, how is it possible that someone
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: is able to still do this?
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's maddening. And anytime you and I interview someone
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: who has been arrested or has any sort of criminal history.
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: It's something that we look into. We have to do
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: our due diligence and ultimately with Cassandra's story, and just
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: like with others where we've come across this, it's like, Okay,
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: she has this arrest for harassment. Yeah, and we didn't
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: talk to law enforcement about their decision to arrest her
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: for her assment. We reached out, by the way, but
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: they have not responded. Okay, yeah, we reached out, but
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: no response. And so it's like for us in our show,
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: this is Cassandra's experience, and I think what it does
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: really highlight that we can all agree on is that
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: the experience of being stocked and feeling like you are
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: in danger and not getting the support that you need
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: from law enforcement can make you do things that you
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: wouldn't normally do. And that can range from the way
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: that you interact with law enforcement once you feel like
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: they're not working for you, to you know, her need
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: to go out and get a concealed carry permit, yeah,
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: to protect herself.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: Or even her talking about when she is texting with
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: this guy who we call Chris the episode, obviously that's
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: not his real name, and she comes to believe and
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: I say, comes to believe because still there's no evidence
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: one hundred percent that shows that he is her stalker.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: She comes to believe that he is, and she's in
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: this really weird position where she's been texting with him,
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: kind of flirting with him, kind of likes him. Maybe
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: once the datam suddenly everything changes. She finds out his
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: criminal history and history of violence against women, believes he's
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: her stalker, and now she is terrified for him to
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: find out that she believes this because she doesn't know
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: what he'll do. And I think that's a valid fear.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: It's a tale as old as time. It's like keep
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: your friends close, enemies closer. Yeah, she doesn't know what
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: he's fully capable of, but she does believe he's capable
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: of violence. Yeah, And so then she goes through this
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: whole thing of taking on a character. This is her
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: story to us, right, pretending to be a jealous woman.
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: She's trying to drive him away by being sort of
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: unpredictable and crazy and clinging and all those things. And
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: that's the choice that she made in that time. Again,
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: like you could see it from two perspectives. You can
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: see how if you really feel like no one is
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: helping you or even believing you you're on your own.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: You're scared, So it's like it's an interesting strategy to
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: come up with to protect herself, but then it ends
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: up really hurting her in the long run because the
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: police can look at that and say, no, look, you're
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: obsessed with him and you're harassing him. So it's obviously
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: so messy and tricky.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: It muddies the waters for someone whose job is to
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: discern from electronic communication, like a text, who's in the
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: right and who's in the wrong. Because if you're kind
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: of in a relationship or you were at one point,
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: and your text messages allude to like you being clinging
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: to him, portraying that he's a stalker is even more difficult.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: But if you believe you're fighting for your own safety,
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: you do things that you wouldn't expect yourself to do.
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: And you know, you and I, for as long as
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: we reported on different stories together, have seen this and
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: victims of all manner of crimes where you think you'd
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: react one way, but then it happens to you, and
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: that's usually not the way that you end up reacting. Totally.
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: This is really random. But the texting thing makes me
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 2: think about the Diddy trial and the way that Cassie
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: was texting with him, and all these texts are pulled
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: up by attorneys like, well, looks like you say I
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: love you, kiss, kiss or whatever, And the reality is, yes,
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: those actual physical texts were sent. But when you look
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: at the greater situation of someone who's being abused, who
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: is also aware that if they anger the person who's
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: either abusing them, stocking them, whatever it is, that that
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: is not going to go well for them.
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: It's self preservation. Yeah, and it's not that black and white.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: You just can't say, oh, well, because you were nice
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: to them, you must have been okay with it. There
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: must not have been a problem. Yeah, I mean, I
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: mean we all do it in like such a in
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: small always all the time in our life. Like how
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: many women have been at a bar and been approached
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: by someone they weren't interested in and tried to like
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: kindly exit, maybe even after that person was too abrasive,
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: because it's just safer.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: Totally, Yeah, you don't want to piss that person off
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: and then suddenly you're in danger when you literally were
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: just trying to have a drink at a bar.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, likely and that's the thing I love about our
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: show is that it's an individual story and we don't
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: have to call the shots. A listener can interpret for themselves,
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: you know, their take on what happened to this person.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: And this is Cassandra's authentic experience. Yeah.
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: One thing that this story, this interview made me think
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: about in relation to stocking, and it's something that has
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: kind of come up as a theme on our show
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: on a lot of different episodes. It's this idea that
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: crime is occurring in a different way than it used to,
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: the fact that you can literally and I look this
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: up because I was like, how easy is this?
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: I went to the app store. I looked at all
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: these apps, like, it's actually so easy to download an
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: app on your phone that allows you to send text
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: messages that look like they're coming from random numbers that
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: aren't traceable. Now they're traceable technically back to the app.
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: So if someone had my phone and I was doing this,
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: they could see I have this app, they could open
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: it up and see that I've been sending text messages.
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: But it's also like you could just download and delete
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: an app. Yeah, and you know, I don't know to
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: what lengths. This guy's phone was searched when it was searched,
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: but it makes me wonder did the people looking at
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: his phone were they aware that this kind of app existed?
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: Did they look for that? Did they look at his
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: app history which you can do and look at what
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: apps he's downloaded and deleted?
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: You know? How thorough was this search?
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: And maybe it was. We don't know because they didn't
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: respond to us when we asked these questions, and it's
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 2: not listed in any of the documents that we have.
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: But it makes me think that there's such a need
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: for investigations to become technologically like intelligent, for the investigation
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: to match the crime. If the crime is happening on
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: the internet with different apps and whatever like, there needs
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: to be an investigation that's competent, right about these types
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: of things?
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: And how well resourced are these small town law enforcement agencies?
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: You know, they're probably spread thin. And what is the
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: continued education on cyberstocking? Yeah? I don't know. Yeah, but
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: thanks everyone for listening and we'll see you next week.
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: If you have a story for us, we would love
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: to hear it. Our email is the Knife at exactly
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: rightmedia dot com or You can follow us on Instagram
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: at the Knife Podcast or Blue Sky at the Knife Podcast.
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: This has been an exactly Right production, hosted and produced
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: by me Hannah Smith and me Paytia Edy.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: Our producers are Tom Bryfogel and Alexis Samarosi.
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: This episode was mixed by Tom Bryfogel.
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgareth Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.