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Transcript

AIM High: Managing for Mental Health · Two in Twenty

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to another episode of AIM High.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Twink Field.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm the CEO of White Marble Marketing and Director of the Association of Investment Marketers.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Today we are welcoming back Janice Benning.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: You may have heard on a different episode talking about well-being.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: And today we are talking more around managing for mental health.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's something that's obviously very much in the press right now as we cope with isolation and coronavirus more generally.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: Janice is a huge expert in this field.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: She's a therapist, mental health aid practitioner, and relative practice the neurovitality.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna hand it across to conversation I have with that.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for joining us today, Janice.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's great to talk to you again.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: First off, we talked about well-being and now talking generally around mental health, but also specifically of mental health in the workplace.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: But also at a personal level, you know, as managers of friends of and colleagues, you know, how how can we support people better?
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, how do we spot the warning signs?
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: Can you can you give us some clues as to what they may be?
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, definitely.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: So it depends, people are going to be very different.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you what you want to be watching out is for is changes in individuals that are concerning to you.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: So sometimes it can actually be the opposite of what you think it might be.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: So sometimes, for example, if someone's depressed, they may be spending a lot of time trying to cover that up and you're asking them if they're okay, and they're going, yes, I'm fine.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: But if you know them really well, there'll be a fragility to that, yes, I'm fine.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I think with all of it, it's about watching for, especially if you know your the people that you're working with fairly well, it's watching for changes that are concerning you.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: So changes in behavior, changes in things like um how they look, what they're at, how they're dressing, how the and it's it's an interesting one right now because obviously that will be different anyway, simply because we're working from home much more at the moment.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: So we are having to work from home at the moment, so it will be different.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: But I think I think the key thing is you you're watching, you're looking for differences.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'd be interested to know how do you determine between sort of something that's just a spike and a reaction and a bad night's sleep and a bit of a grump versus something that's a bit more uh consistent and more of a deeply embedded uh sort of problem with that sort of mental state?
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we all have our bad days, and we've all got, however you look at it, we've all got mental health.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: So we'll we'll all have days when some days when we're functioning absolutely fine and we're doing really well, and other days where we're going, do you know what?
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm struggling a bit because we're human beings, that would be normal.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: So if, for example, you've not had a good night's sleep, then you move along.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: I like to talk about a mental health continuum, you move along that continuum.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: So we go from being healthy and coping to maybe being slightly more reactive, and those two stages would be really normal stuff.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, we all experience that on a regular basis.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: So we go from, you know, maybe one day having really good energy levels and good performance, and we're feeling pretty cool most of the time.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then as we start to move along that spectrum, we then might start to be a little bit more reactive, a little bit more um antsy with people, a little bit more you know, fed up, a bit more reactive in the way that we respond.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: So those kind of things I'd be watching out for.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's normal stuff though.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: I the deal is if it starts to go on for any length of time, that's the bit you want to start watching out for.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: And then performance will actually start to change.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: People will not be able to function as effectively because they physiologically can't if they're feeling mentally unwell.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so they move them from being sort of a bit irritable, a bit fed up, not having so much of a sense of humor.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: And those kind of things would be they're starting to react.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then as it moves into poor mental health, which is moving further along that continuum, you then might get them being angry regularly, um, having low mood regularly, but it's it's much more continual.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: So you'll see less and less and less of that balanced behavior, and more and more and more of them sort of struggling to keep going, they're there in body, you know, doing the work, but they're not actually achieving in the way they would do normally.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: So you'll like to see a drop in performance level, they may be more withdrawn, or actually they may also be a bit more gregarious than normal because they're trying to cover what they're actually feeling.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it it can be any number of different things.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: What you're really looking for are changes that concern you.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting, isn't it?
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: That whether somebody retreats and goes kind of more into themselves, or or whether if they're struggling, or whether somebody becomes more quick to flare.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um neither of those uh kind of make it easy for somebody to approach them to get closer to support to help, you know, suggest coping strategies.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: How do you what what suggestions do you have from from managers and and friends and colleagues to to sort of get closer and and and presume it's about starting a conversation earlier before there's a problem, I don't know.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: If you possibly can, the time you have the conversation.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: So if you think about the idea that we have a mental health continuum and we move along it, as human beings, we all do.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: So you move along those sort of stages from being healthy and coping, then people move into the next stage, which is starting to be reactive, then they may move on a bit further into having poor mental health, and then ultimately you're looking at them being mentally unwell.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: So it's doing different things at different stages.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: So ideally, the time when you start the conversation about mental health is when everybody's healthy and coping, because at that point you can have really frank, really honest conversations.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I love to say to my work colleagues, do you know what happens to me is I start to get catchy.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: If I if I do just pull me up, and personally, if I'm if I'm not coping particularly well, that I lose my sense of humour.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: So if you take the Mickey out of me, that works perfectly.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm if I'm just you know moving a little bit along that line, so that you can kind of steer things in the right direction nice and early with me, and and I'm quite happy to flag up what those different things are.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think also if you know your work colleagues really well, you can start to spot their individual warning signs and you can have those good conversations.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: And as managers, at that point, when people are relatively well, you or maybe reacting, you know, in those first two early stages of moving along that continuum, you can build good relationships, you can build good rapport, you can get stuff to a point where you can have really frank, honest conversations.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then if things do start to move towards somebody being mentally unwell, you can go, hang on a minute, I'm I'm now really worried about you.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: And you're you're talking to them as human beings, not as work colleagues.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I I think if you set that up early, you know, and you've got good relationships, then it's easier.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I completely see that.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: If you try and jump in on a situation when you've kind of gone down that continuum already, it's quite harder to a lot harder to break in, to start having those frank conversations, supportive conversations when they come out of the blue like that.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: But if that's part of your culture, part of the sort of the nature of your relationship already, then then it's a lot easier potentially to sort of have those conversations and identify them slipping down that continuum.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it really is.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think as a manager, you've also got to have you in the mix.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got to have been looking after yourself and staying okay yourself in order to be able to see those things.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got to have your own coping strategies that are good adaptive coping strategies, not maladaptive ones.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the the thing that always fascinates me is that if you look at the stats, um women tend to be much better at going and seeking help.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: So they have a much higher incidence of depression and anxiety.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas men tend to go down the maladaptive coping strategy route, so they have a much higher incidence of things like alcoholism, um, drug addiction and gambling addiction.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: So those kinds of things, because what they're trying to do is they're using a maladaptive strategy to attempt to cope with actually what's happening mentally.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, and that's not saying that men have less incidence of depression and anxiety.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: They don't, I don't think.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: I but they cope in different ways.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I think as a manager, it's watching out for those kind of warning signs as well.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, are you seeing somebody, you know, maybe even if you are working from home, then you know, are they talking about that the the next night they've had several of those nights on the trot where all they've been doing is you know having the the very early drinking sessions?
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, what what's actually happening?
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: Again, if you know them well enough, you can start to talk about those things.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's it's creating good relationships initially.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then what where does the sort of role of of managers stop and start?
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, to to what degree, what um what can we realistically expect of ourselves in terms of supporting people in this regard?
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: And at what point do we um think actually we we need to have some sort of intervention here?
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, this isn't this is out of my area of knowledge and and fear of being able to support them.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think so.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: If if somebody's at the healthy stage or the reacting stage, then you've got a great role to play.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, at that point you can, you know, if they're starting to react, it's then about watching and listening, asking lots of questions, you know, how are you?
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: Being really frank, um, having those conversations that we're often scared to have.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, if somebody has um a physical health issue, we'll often easily talk about that, you know, because it's obvious.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: If you're beginning to suspect someone has a mental health issue, we often don't approach it because it's less obvious.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: So asking questions, um, providing general support, finding out what the actual problem is, you know, talking and having honest conversations at the healthy and reacting stage.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: As it starts to move on, it's then about communicating differently, and you're going to need external support in there.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: So at that point, it may be that it needs to be flagged up to further support.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: You need to flag up, you know, the EAP if that's what you've got within your organization, flag up other support networks, encourage professional intervention because at that point they need it.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: So, and you're not, I I think it's it's really important to you're not a doctor and you're not a therapist, you're their manager and and you're not there to diagnose.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: What you're spotting is something that's different that's concerning you.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you're not supposed to be fixing it, that's not your job, and and you frankly can't.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: You can support, but if it's moved a long way along that line, then they need extra help.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: So at that point, your role I think shifts quite a lot.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's then about encouraging them to go to the doctors or to the therapist or to whoever else it happens to be, encouraging that, and if you possibly can, enabling that, if there's some way within your EAP to do that, you know, supporting from in a different way.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: But you at that point also have to really make sure you manage yourself because it it's quite difficult to manage somebody who has mental ill health.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, making sure that you stay okay in that mix too.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: And also there are so many bits to this, aren't there?
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really gonna go on and on and on, but but also um the noticing how that's impacting the rest of the members of the team and then supporting the wider team also comes into that mix.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I'm conscious of this environment, particularly that we're living through right now, with everybody sort of in isolation, which is you know puts a further spotlight on mental health.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm conscious of you know the conversation is starting to move back to when we go back into the office and when we go back to our different workplaces.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: And the awareness amongst managers around the stress and anxiety that that in of itself can be causing people as well.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess it's a real understanding.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: There's very personal, those the relationships that we have with our colleagues have become much more sort of personal, and um, we can see much more of people's lives now than ever.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that potentially is going to change relationships going forward in the office, would you say?
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'd I'm really hoping actually it does, because I think what we're getting glimpses into people's personal lives.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: You see their kitchen, you know, because they're on Zoom in the kitchen, or you see the kid suddenly leaps on them from somewhere, or or you see that they're you know, they're they're in effect living with somebody the other day on a Zoom call, and their brother turned up in his underpants and just walked straight through trying to present.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we're we're starting to see get glimpses, and we start to see our work colleagues as human beings, not just work colleagues, you know, human beings with complicated lives, and and we all have them.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think that that humanizes it.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's probably quite useful moving forwards, and you may well start to get more of a an inkling of the the different challenges that different people have.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, right now, if you look at some of the stress that some of the the trigger factors into mental ill health, just in the current environment with coronavirus, we've got loads of them, you know.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: But we may well love our family dearly, but none of us really want to be cooped up with them in a small space 24-7, you know, week after week, even if we adore them.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: So that you know, it can be quite tricky.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: Or we may well be, you know, we might have lots of space, but there may be one particular member of the family we don't get on that well with, and we're suddenly isolated with them, or it may be that we're really concerned about you know, relatives who my sister certainly with with doing shielding with her.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, that would there'll be different concerns for different people and different risk factors to mental ill health and stresses.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: You also get those people that are uh by themselves, and it's recognizing what those different risk factors are.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: And and more broadly, kind of I I fully appreciate within this of isolation setup and and you know, the sense of kind of moving back to the office, though those are some determining risk factors.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: Are there other things more generally that we should be aware of and thinking about in terms of you know the risk factors to people's mental health and mental stability?
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there are but there are any numbers.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, there are there are universal ones.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: So working 24-7, you know, and and and not taking good breaks, ultimately something's got to give, and that can well be our mental health.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: And again, currently, you know, that's that's one of the things that would be quite easy to do because work's giving some people structure, certainly if they're living by themselves, and and then they're likely to just keep on going without stopping.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not gonna be good for them long term.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: You can do that short term, you can't do it long term.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, things like bad communication and lots of change, you know, again, people often don't like that and they struggle with that.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: Deadlines that aren't realistic, you know, and just constantly having to work, internal politics, you know, those lack of support in the workplace, all of those things can contribute to somebody feeling mentally unstable.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then there are lots of personal factors, you know, so things going right back to childhood can can mean that we actually are more predisposed to becoming mentally unwell later in life.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: So there are, you know, attachment issues from from childhood can be can be one of those things.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: Struggling with trauma or separation or divorce, or there are so many different things that can trigger people into being mentally unwell.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: Financial issues, you know, certainly one at the moment, people are worried about their jobs and their job security and therefore worried about paying the mortgage or worried about supporting their children, you know, those those kind of things don't help.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, you know loads of things, and and right now, you know, death um or the the death of a loved one, if that's happening too, that's another thing that that knocks us off balance.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: So and means that we will move along that mental health continuum.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we almost can't not.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: So as human beings, that's what happens.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: So it's how do you support somebody within you know if those things are being experienced?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: And and I guess any any anyone is susceptible, you know, when you think of all of those different influences and factors, um, you know, there's no sort of discrimination, I guess, in terms of uh you know mental health impacting at all.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I was just wondering, you know, in terms of uh those coping strategies, I think it's really helpful to sort of understand all of the sort of environmental um risk factors that we're kind of all juggling and coping with.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um what are the ways to or tools to suggest to people to help them?
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: And even if you start to sort of feel yourself slipping down a slippery slope, you know, um how can we how can we support ourselves to try and get back to a healthier place?
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: It often if someone's um depressed, it's often things, for example, that feel counterintuitive, often with anxiety too.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it's um if somebody's feeling particularly depressed, then what they really want to do is pull the gibbe over their head and stay in bed.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they they don't want to get out there, and it feels like they've got their own personal black cloud and it's following them around everywhere.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: So it's an incredibly unpleasant place to be, and it's not that anybody wants to be there, and people will say things like, you know, you just need to snap out of it.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well, frankly, if they would, they could.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: If they could, they would.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean the other way around, if they could, they would, because it feels really unpleasant, you know, it doesn't feel good.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: So, but things like exercise we know helps because it helps rebalance the system.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it may be that medication's one of the things that's going to support them.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: Certainly within the workplace, it's make sure you've got good support networks, um, a safe place where they can have those conversations.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, having a sense of community, having a sense of purpose and direction, and and maintaining those routines is actually really important.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think all of that is can be quite difficult, can't it, if you're suffering from depression, as you say.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: It is so counterintuitive to to want to express yourself, to sort of um to actually to really make sense of your own feelings, to be able to put them in a coherent sentence that that people will relate to.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's the other point.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it's also a sense of almost weakness or failure that that you're not coping, you know, and and whether you should even have permission to sort of feel like that when relatively your life's fine, you know.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's quite difficult to jolt yourself out of it, those sort of mindsets and and and positions.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's where you need external help to do that.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where it's it's useful to have you know the EAP system within the workplace, or to have a therapist involved, or to have somebody else that you can talk to that's external.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and I think you know, this there hasn't illnesses like this, do not discriminate.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that it can happen to absolutely any one of us.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: So we can all experience the perfect storm, we can all you we may on the outside, our lives may look perfect, they may look absolutely wonderful.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: And people will say things like, you know, that worse things happen at sea, and you know, actually you're things are all right, really, everything looks all right.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: And to you, that's not how it feels, yeah, because mentally your system's not working that way.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: So it's about getting your system back into balance, you know, your system's not broken, but it's it's out of balance.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: So it's how do you get that balance back again so that you start to feel joy in in life or you start to be able to cope well without feeling that intense anxiety feeling.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: And and it's you know, it's all interlinked.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: So it's how do we look after our bodies and our minds and make sure that that we get back on track.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I think if someone's at that stage, that that's really where.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: the the manager their role is kind of they've got to step back and let the professionals get involved and and help at that point and I think it's it's really easy to judge you know several people that externally their lives looked perfect but they were struggling with mental ill health and and that's because it can happen to absolutely anybody and it's not about your your life circumstance in particular it's about how your systems currently coping with your life circumstance so you know and and I think it's it's also interesting to look at internationally the the attitudes are very different.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: So there are real cultural differences around mental ill health and how we perceive it.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: And understanding as well isn't there because there's one thing which is whether the individual themselves are um ready to show their vulnerability in in what they're struggling with as as much as the it is on on the manager if you were to sort of express that for them to be uh accepting to you know have the right level of education understanding around around be able to respond in the right way I remember um talking to to a manager when I had a dip and um he said at the time oh well you know my wife gets down quite regularly and she just needs to be able to take our own tablet you know I just think oh I don't know where to go I don't know where to start you know but in in truth you know he ended up really getting it and uh it was very supportive but you know that it is really difficult when you feel like you are experiencing something and trying to educate people at the same time I think that's a tough spot.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's a really tough spot and and I think yeah in here what he was trying to do he was trying to be understanding and trying to be empathetic.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: And we we often do that exactly that and it's actually with the best within the world that's totally the wrong way of doing it because we we often will say oh I know what that's like I've experienced that too or why such and such experience and they don't because they're not in your shoes.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: And and so try and avoid saying things like that preferably you know also they're man up you know that that doesn't work either you know if somebody with a mental illness could just sort it out they would it doesn't none of it feels great.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: None of us you know if we've been there don't we don't want to be there.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a great place to be at all.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: But it's it's what you do with that isn't it and and I think often people are simply unaware of the warning signs that they're slipping down that slope or they're moving along that continuum.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I know that you know I became ill with chronic fatigue syndrome and and very much if I had understood the warning signs I may well have been able to to do something about that much earlier.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know I just didn't recognise there were warning signs.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the education piece is is crucial for the workplace.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: Just to make sure that everybody understands it.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: And and then also within the workplace setting up an area that's safe and an environment that's safe so people can actually discuss this stuff and actually tell you if there's a problem.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of the time if people feel that it's going to impact negatively on their promotion chances then we're not going to tell you.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know that so it's about creating a sort of safe environment where people can talk about it.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I think if someone's then been off it's it's work or is off with mental illness it's them working out very carefully what you do to support them back into the workplace.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely and giving them the time and space to in some ways discover themselves isn't it you know there's um I think sometimes we all work so blisteringly hard that we're not very attuned to what fills it up what what gives us a a high and they can be the smallest things and and and my we you need you need to have explored that that self-discovery of a long luxurious bath fills up my emotional bank account you know that's all I need to you know you need to know these things to be able to manage yourself.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah yeah exactly and that's a fabulous thing isn't it it's it's what's your so that you don't go down that that spectrum but recognise that actually you know anybody can it's not something that that happens to some people and not others.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's and it's it's not it doesn't does really does not discriminate.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's about also I think if you are starting to feel unwell it's about also having lots of compassion and kindness towards yourself and doing all of those things that even if you're not feeling joy doing them right now, those things that you know you used to love doing and keeping on doing them and and keeping sort of with if you have been mentally unwell it's keeping a routine it's it's putting a structure in place it's making sure that you do get up every morning and you have a certain routine even if you're not doing all of the things that you used to do.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's putting some of those things back in the mix and then gradually building it back up again.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: And then if you're managing somebody back into wellbeing it's being very gentle with them and patient and recognizing that it's not just a steep with you know one minute we're not very well and the next minute that's it we're recovered because that's not how it works.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: They're going to have good days and bad days and they're gonna have picks and troughs.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so you've got to be extremely understanding around that and and be able to have the conversations when necessary and and cut yourself and other people some slack.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely and I guess it is that it is it is and but it is that inconsistency isn't it that that sometimes um is confusing to people who ha who haven't um necessarily suffered from ill mental health.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: That they that that it's not as binary as all that sometimes and so sort of managing someone that's having a great day and then having a a bad day can be really difficult to do because as a merger you need to have that emotional flexibility to to adapt accordingly rather than just have set expectations of what we need from you today.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah yeah um it's it it is you you really do have to be flexible and and that's often in the work environment easier said than done because there are just so many demands on everybody.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: And then I think as a manager the the real skill comes in managing not just that person but everybody else's expectations around that person and and enabling the entire team to be able to work effectively together without putting too much pressure on everybody else because the reality is that if one person is not working at the top of their game then because they can't then then that puts pressure on everyone else.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: But I think we need to start and I think there's a a big move towards this but seeing mental health in the same way as we see physical health.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: I would need to come back and there may be days when I feel better than others.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know there may be days where I've tried really hard and I pushed it physically and the next day I'm absolutely wiped out.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: So you know those it it's starting to to give it um equality really with with physical health and see it as part of one whole package.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah they're they're not different things.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: No quite um so Janice if you were to give managers um thinking about this some tips as to how to create that environment how to um uh support better their their colleagues and um sort of lead the way in the sort of the culture that is understanding of these sort of mental health issues what few tips or suggestions would you have for them I I think managers have actually got a responsibility to model good practice.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: So things like you know having cutoff points times where you go home saying okay I'm sending that email tomorrow morning I'm not doing any more tonight it's time for a break you know having lunch breaks doing modeling good practice in the office or you know even now while we're we're working from home saying yeah it I'm having a break for half an hour at lunchtime 12 till 1230 you won't get me I'll be back on after that or whatever it is you know it's and making sure that you do that.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I think leading by example is important.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think building really good open honest relationships is really important and creating the the kind of environment where I can say to you do you know what I'm having a rubbish day and I can be quite actually quite frank about it.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: Or I can say I slept really badly last night I am feeling really grouchy.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: I will do my best not to be but that that's currently how I'm feeling you know if we have an honest enough work environment where we can say that stuff then then it actually makes it a heck of a lot easier to communicate it.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then other people aren't taking things personally and I will do my best to behave myself you know but I'm just so you know struggling a bit today.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it can be quite useful to be really honest.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think then also as managers you can help people with their tolerance levels of stress.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: So you know by by pushing them enough but not overwhelming them you're actually expanding that window of resilience and that window of tolerance to to stress and stresses so you can actually help them get tougher.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think then it's it there's the education piece isn't it so prevention education um so people really understand how they operate and what they can do to support themselves because this is this you know that's people are responsible for themselves too you're not totally responsible for them or you're not responsible for them at all.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know they've got to take their part and play their part in in maintaining their wellbeing too so it's it becomes a team effort not just a one-sided thing.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah I I think those kind of things and also being honest the the stuff that really opens up conversations is when somebody more senior says God I've been struggling too or I have struggled in the past and and tell their story.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah and and yeah a few ideas.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah loads of ideas there thank you so much for what is always such an interesting and and candid conversation I really really appreciate it and um you know hopefully lots of people will will take those tips on board and and create the kind of cultures that that are going to support people going forward.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you again.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: Lovely thank you pleasure