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Why are Pentecostals growing so rapidly? · Stuff You Should Know

0:00
Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, it's me Josh, and I'm here to tell
0:03
Speaker 1: you it's official. We're going to be in Vancouver, b C.
0:06
Speaker 1: And Portland, Oregon this March. On March twenty nine, will
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Speaker 1: be at the Chance Center in Vancouver and on March
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Speaker 1: will be at the Arlene Schnitzer Concert Hall in Portland.
0:17
Speaker 1: So come see us. Tickets go on sale this Friday.
0:21
Speaker 1: Go to s y s K live dot com for
0:24
Speaker 1: ticket links and info and everything you need and we'll
0:26
Speaker 1: see you guys in March. Welcome to Stuff you Should Know,
0:30
Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hellellujah
0:40
Speaker 1: and welcome to Stuff you Should Know. I'm Josh, There's Chuck,
0:47
Speaker 1: there's Josh t over there, and uh, this is, like
0:51
Speaker 1: I said, stuff you should know. Hey, you know we
0:54
Speaker 1: should plug Josh's record. Can you get that anywhere? Josh
0:57
Speaker 1: Migrant Worker? All right, he's got a new album out.
1:01
Speaker 1: He's a very talented musician. What's the name of the
1:04
Speaker 1: album self titled? I don't think they wrote out self titled.
1:09
Speaker 1: I think it's just called Migrant Worker. And it looks great.
1:13
Speaker 1: I haven't heard it yet, but the artwork is is amazing,
1:15
Speaker 1: and I know Josh is talented, So yeah, go out
1:18
Speaker 1: there and find it. Everyone. Jerry's not in a band, No, no,
1:22
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna
1:25
Speaker 1: weigh their individual talents against one another. But Jerry's not
1:29
Speaker 1: in a band. What if Jerry is like secretly in
1:31
Speaker 1: a Heart tribute band or something that would be that
1:34
Speaker 1: would make my life. Yeah, well, I want to hear
1:38
Speaker 1: the album to Josh. Okay, okay, says Josh um So Chuck.
1:44
Speaker 1: I said Hallelujah to start this one off. And the
1:48
Speaker 1: reason I did that because it was a nod to Pentecostalism,
1:52
Speaker 1: which is why we're going to talk about today. That's right.
1:56
Speaker 1: I could have sworn we did an episode on speaking
1:58
Speaker 1: in tongues. We did not. We did went on faith
2:01
Speaker 1: healing and snake handling. Yes, both of those were excellent,
2:04
Speaker 1: and we must have talked about speaking in tongues some
2:07
Speaker 1: enduring both of those. Yes, but we're gonna talk about
2:10
Speaker 1: a little bit more because it's a big part of
2:14
Speaker 1: the Pentecostal movement, which huge surprisingly and you may have
2:18
Speaker 1: been the one that dropped that stat on me recently
2:21
Speaker 1: about being the fastest growing sect of Christianity is that right, Yeah,
2:25
Speaker 1: I did. It was the other the other day. I
2:27
Speaker 1: don't know where it was, and he said, well, maybe
2:31
Speaker 1: it was just Ah, I can't remember what you said evangelical. Yeah,
2:37
Speaker 1: I think I that doesn't sound like me. I probably
2:39
Speaker 1: said look it up. Of course I'm right. Oh goodness,
2:45
Speaker 1: that was a great Josh impression. But it is true.
2:48
Speaker 1: It is um, And I guess it just seemed counterintuitive
2:52
Speaker 1: because I naively thought that pentecostal Ism was sort of
2:56
Speaker 1: antiquated and something that was going away. Oh. No, that
3:00
Speaker 1: how they get you. That's what they want you to
3:01
Speaker 1: think of. The family spring on you. If there was
3:03
Speaker 1: a snake in your face. They say, here, hold this center. No,
3:08
Speaker 1: but we're gonna be respectful here because it's pretty interesting.
3:11
Speaker 1: I think. Starting now, okay, uh, we need to get
3:15
Speaker 1: in the way back machine, though, and go back to
3:17
Speaker 1: where this all began. Um, not really where it all began,
3:20
Speaker 1: because in truth that would be Biblical times, but where
3:23
Speaker 1: it began as a modern thing, is uh not that
3:27
Speaker 1: long ago nineteen o six in downtown Los Angeles they
3:32
Speaker 1: had something going on called the Azusa Street Revival, which
3:36
Speaker 1: we talked about that in The Faith Healing Episode two Yeah,
3:38
Speaker 1: it was a very big deal. This was at the
3:41
Speaker 1: Apostolic Faith Mission in downtown l A. There right on
3:45
Speaker 1: Azusa Street. Um, downtown I looked l A looked very
3:49
Speaker 1: different back then, obviously. Yeah, this is like the industrial
3:52
Speaker 1: area I saw. Yeah, I mean now it's just downtown
3:56
Speaker 1: l A. You're like the toy the toy zone. What
4:00
Speaker 1: do you call it the toy zone, not the zone.
4:03
Speaker 1: What do you call an area where district, toy district.
4:07
Speaker 1: There's a toy district there is. Yeah, downtown he's got
4:11
Speaker 1: a toy district. That's in a fashion district. It's where
4:13
Speaker 1: like you go get raw fabrics off the truck or
4:17
Speaker 1: cheap toys straight off the boat. That kind of thing.
4:20
Speaker 1: Got okay, it's not like just a wonderlantern. I know.
4:23
Speaker 1: I was like, I want to go see this. This
4:24
Speaker 1: sounds amazing. I want to go to the toy zone. Yeah,
4:27
Speaker 1: they zone. So, Um, this was going on back then
4:32
Speaker 1: down there. Uh. And that was led by a minister
4:36
Speaker 1: and African American minister from Louisiana named William Seymour. Yeah.
4:40
Speaker 1: And what was interesting about this, um is that this
4:43
Speaker 1: is six and at the Zooza Street Mission. Um, this
4:48
Speaker 1: was a like a like black and white. I'm not
4:52
Speaker 1: sure about Hispanic, but I would not be at all
4:53
Speaker 1: surprised it was Hispanic as well. Okay, they were like
4:56
Speaker 1: UM races worshiping together UM, and it was a very
5:00
Speaker 1: big deal. Just that alone was a very big deal.
5:03
Speaker 1: But what makes this the start of pentecostal is M
5:06
Speaker 1: is that UM at some point, I think in April
5:09
Speaker 1: of nineteen o six, they started holding UM three services
5:14
Speaker 1: a day, seven days a week, and these were like
5:17
Speaker 1: marathon hours long services each one. And the reason that
5:21
Speaker 1: they were doing this is because if you're a Pentecostal Um,
5:25
Speaker 1: you believe that the Holy Spirit UM had descended upon
5:30
Speaker 1: the Azusa Street mission and was in baptizing all of
5:34
Speaker 1: these people with fire and causing them to UM speak
5:39
Speaker 1: in tongues, to dance, a clap, to sing, and basically
5:43
Speaker 1: revived religion as as or Christianity as we know it. Like,
5:49
Speaker 1: that's what happened here in Los Angeles starting in April
5:52
Speaker 1: of nineteen o six, that's right. And they get that
5:55
Speaker 1: that goes back to the biblical days where the eleven
6:01
Speaker 1: remaining disciples after Christ was crucified, because you know, Judas
6:07
Speaker 1: was the twelve you know what happened to him. He
6:10
Speaker 1: didn't pan out so well, he didn't pan out so well,
6:13
Speaker 1: didn't kill himself after that? Yeah, he hung himself. Hanged himself.
6:17
Speaker 1: Excuse me, I always get that wrong. I always get
6:20
Speaker 1: that wrong too. But those eleven remaining disciples were baptized
6:23
Speaker 1: in the Holy Spirit and filled with the Holy Ghost
6:27
Speaker 1: and began to speak in other tongues during the Pentecost feast,
6:32
Speaker 1: which was a Jewish feast named so because it was
6:35
Speaker 1: I think fifty days after uh, the Crucifixion, after Passover,
6:41
Speaker 1: after Passover, and the in is Greek. Pentecost is Greek, right, Well,
6:48
Speaker 1: well put chuck, oh yeah, yeah, So what happened at
6:52
Speaker 1: that first Pentecost feast back in the first century, see
6:56
Speaker 1: was um they were like you said, they were by
7:00
Speaker 1: eight in the Holy Spirit. They were speaking in tongues.
7:03
Speaker 1: They suddenly had powers to like heal and all this
7:06
Speaker 1: happened at that Pentecost feast. Um. And in apparently in
7:11
Speaker 1: the Bible it basically says, um, hang around and wait
7:16
Speaker 1: for this to happen again, and you will know this
7:18
Speaker 1: will be a sign that the second Coming of Christ
7:22
Speaker 1: is at hand. And so again if you're a Pentecostal,
7:27
Speaker 1: you believe that in April of nineteen o six, the
7:30
Speaker 1: Holy Spirit showed up on earth again and basically bathe
7:33
Speaker 1: these followers in it in itself, in the Holy Spirit um,
7:38
Speaker 1: and to announce that Christ was coming again for the
7:42
Speaker 1: second time. That's right, and this um, if you are
7:47
Speaker 1: a complete agnostic or atheist, nonbeliever, this all sounds very weird. Probably,
7:52
Speaker 1: But even back then and now, if you are um
7:56
Speaker 1: a non Pentecostal Christian, let's say, you might think it's
8:00
Speaker 1: pretty weird too. Um. It got a lot of blowback
8:04
Speaker 1: back in nineteen o six from U Christians and atheists alike.
8:09
Speaker 1: The l A Times. It was a reporter who wrote
8:11
Speaker 1: a story entitled Weird Babble of Tongues, where they wrote
8:15
Speaker 1: about attendees breathing strange utterances and malving a creed, which
8:20
Speaker 1: it would seem no sane mortal could understand. Devotees of
8:24
Speaker 1: the Weird Doctrine practice the most fanatical rights, preached the
8:28
Speaker 1: wildest theories and work themselves into a state of mad
8:32
Speaker 1: excitement and so um. It wasn't just the Los Angeles
8:38
Speaker 1: Times that thought this was a little odd. There was
8:40
Speaker 1: a guy named Charles Parham, who five years earlier is
8:44
Speaker 1: considered possibly the actual founder of Pentecostalism. Because this is
8:49
Speaker 1: really important. Speaking in tongues is the the basis. It's
8:53
Speaker 1: the thing that differentiates Pentecostalism from everything else. The idea
8:58
Speaker 1: that you can speak in tongues and when you do
9:00
Speaker 1: speak in tongues is because you are being baptized by
9:03
Speaker 1: the Holy Spirit and your your souls being sanctified, and
9:06
Speaker 1: that if you don't speak in tongues, you're not actually
9:08
Speaker 1: saved yet. That's that's the big differentiator. Well back in
9:12
Speaker 1: nineteen o one and topeaka Kansas, Charles param was preaching
9:16
Speaker 1: and one of his church members, Agnes uh Ose and
9:20
Speaker 1: I think her name was, started speaking in tongues. And
9:24
Speaker 1: so some people are like, no, this was the first
9:26
Speaker 1: appearance of this Holy Spirit that was announcing the second
9:28
Speaker 1: Coming of Christ. Other people are like, yeah, yeah, Agnes
9:32
Speaker 1: is great and we'll we'll give her her do. But
9:34
Speaker 1: really it was the Zuzu Street Revival where it wasn't
9:37
Speaker 1: just one person, it was everybody who came this this revival,
9:42
Speaker 1: this um, this thing where people were dancing and clapping
9:44
Speaker 1: and speaking in tongues. For essentially the first time ever
9:48
Speaker 1: or at least since the the Apostles back in the
9:51
Speaker 1: first century. Um, this went on for years. They held
9:55
Speaker 1: three services a day, seven days a week, four years,
9:58
Speaker 1: and people were coming and being ecstatic and having just
10:01
Speaker 1: a heck of a time. Almost said, a hell of
10:03
Speaker 1: a time at this mission. Um, it's like nine years total. Yeah,
10:08
Speaker 1: and then spreading out and going out into the world
10:12
Speaker 1: to basically say, Hey, everybody, Jesus is coming. Look busy.
10:17
Speaker 1: Do you remember that that was like Stephen King's favorite
10:20
Speaker 1: T shirt for a teenager to be wearing, Jesus is
10:23
Speaker 1: coming and look busy. Yeah. If you read his stuff
10:25
Speaker 1: from the seventies, like in every book there's a teenager wearing. Yeah,
10:30
Speaker 1: that's like George Constanzas when he stumbled upon the thing
10:34
Speaker 1: that if he looked annoyed every time someone passed his office,
10:37
Speaker 1: then they thought he was working hard. Serenity. Now, Uh,
10:44
Speaker 1: One thing we should point out to that the early
10:47
Speaker 1: Pentecostals were oddly ahead of the curve and allowing women
10:52
Speaker 1: to take leadership roles in the church at a times,
10:56
Speaker 1: and many times women of color. And this was not
10:58
Speaker 1: the norm in nineteen o six in any capa city um.
11:01
Speaker 1: So we should give them their due for that. Well.
11:04
Speaker 1: In fact, William Seymour, the guy who was heading the
11:07
Speaker 1: Zuosas Street Um revival Um, he married a white woman
11:11
Speaker 1: and he believed that the races um worshiping together was
11:16
Speaker 1: a clear sign that you know, God was present, the
11:20
Speaker 1: Holy Spirit was present, and that this was like the
11:22
Speaker 1: real deal, like this was really happening. But what's ironic
11:25
Speaker 1: and kind of I guess tragic even about it is
11:28
Speaker 1: that there was a faction that split off at the
11:33
Speaker 1: mission um and a group left the mission and founded
11:37
Speaker 1: basically their own branch of pentecostali Um. There's like one
11:41
Speaker 1: really clear through line that aside from the um the
11:47
Speaker 1: like religious beliefs of Evangelicalism and pentecostal um um. And
11:52
Speaker 1: that is the politics of it, right, so true, So
11:55
Speaker 1: there'll be some leader who comes along and says, no,
11:58
Speaker 1: this and this literal interpretation is being interpreted incorrectly. We
12:02
Speaker 1: know it's actually you're supposed to say this word. And
12:04
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, this guy's got his own his
12:06
Speaker 1: own church with his own followers, and they spread their
12:09
Speaker 1: own word right Um. This happened at the Azuza Street
12:12
Speaker 1: Mission and out of that came the two largest congregations
12:16
Speaker 1: UM that are in the United States at least, the
12:19
Speaker 1: Church of God in Christ, which is predominantly African American,
12:23
Speaker 1: and the Assemblies of God, which is predominantly white. And
12:28
Speaker 1: so what started out is this really amazing like um
12:32
Speaker 1: racially mixed, multi racial UM ecstatic worship of God split
12:39
Speaker 1: into two different factions of the same thing that divided
12:43
Speaker 1: along racial lines. Amazing. Yeah, So let's take a break
12:47
Speaker 1: and we'll come back and talk a little bit about
12:49
Speaker 1: what's happened since then, and uh, what Pentecostals believe and
12:53
Speaker 1: why they're growing so quickly. Alright, So before the break,
13:28
Speaker 1: you mentioned the Church of God in Christ, largely African American,
13:33
Speaker 1: six point five million members, not too shabby. Assemblies of
13:38
Speaker 1: God three point two million members. Also, I mean a
13:41
Speaker 1: lot of stats in here as we go, UM to
13:44
Speaker 1: really drive home what what has happened here? What has happened?
13:50
Speaker 1: Something golful? It's not how I mean in NT six
13:53
Speaker 1: percent of all global Christians were Pentecostals. By two thousand fifteen,
13:59
Speaker 1: that had grown to twenty five from two fifteen. That's astounding.
14:06
Speaker 1: It's like a nineteen percent jump and but also, Chuck,
14:09
Speaker 1: that means that one in four one and four Christians
14:13
Speaker 1: are Pentecostals. Now, yeah, and I think the stat from
14:16
Speaker 1: that Washington Post article says one in twelve human beings
14:20
Speaker 1: on planet Earth are Pentecostal, of just all humans. Yes,
14:25
Speaker 1: And if you're a Pentecostal, you're like, well, that's clear
14:28
Speaker 1: evidence that the Holy Spirit is spreading throughout the world. Um,
14:33
Speaker 1: this is not just the United States, in fact, it is.
14:37
Speaker 1: It is such a big deal because it's a global movement. UM.
14:41
Speaker 1: What is referred to as the Global South UM, which
14:45
Speaker 1: is Africa UM or regions of Africa, Latin America, Southeast Asia.
14:50
Speaker 1: The Global South is booming with even with I'm sorry Pentecostals.
14:55
Speaker 1: That's right, um, And I mean we'll talk a little
14:59
Speaker 1: more about that, but just kind of put a pin
15:00
Speaker 1: in that that that is I was right that it
15:03
Speaker 1: is the fastest growing religion or religious sect. Yeah. So
15:07
Speaker 1: there's this guy, he's a New Testament professor at evangel
15:12
Speaker 1: University of Missouri named Martin middle Stat and he's quoted
15:16
Speaker 1: a lot in this Uh who wrote this was this
15:19
Speaker 1: Dave Ruse. I don't know, I didn't he might have
15:21
Speaker 1: been Dave. But it seems like the author got an
15:25
Speaker 1: interview with with Mr middle Statt. I don't know if
15:28
Speaker 1: he's a doctor or not, but he he had a
15:32
Speaker 1: lot of great light to shine on this and kind
15:34
Speaker 1: of what's going on. Lightbringer, he's a lightbringer? Um, he said, sorry,
15:40
Speaker 1: Dr Oh, you just called him doctor and he might
15:43
Speaker 1: not be. But I also just called him Lucifer to well,
15:47
Speaker 1: good point, Dr Lucifer. All right. So he said that
15:52
Speaker 1: this is kind of like any kind of restoration or
15:55
Speaker 1: renewal movement within Christianity that happens when and it's happened
16:00
Speaker 1: over time in different ways, but that happens when Christians
16:03
Speaker 1: feel like, hey, we've been ignoring something pretty important here
16:07
Speaker 1: in the Bible directly from from Christ's words, and we
16:11
Speaker 1: need to recover that in a big way. And in
16:14
Speaker 1: this case, they're talking about the Book of Acts, which
16:18
Speaker 1: details what we went over earlier of what happened with
16:21
Speaker 1: the disciples after the passover. Right wait, wait and there
16:25
Speaker 1: so like this this idea is that it's literally being recovered,
16:29
Speaker 1: like there is this is literally happening. The Holy Spirit,
16:33
Speaker 1: as prophecied, is returning to Earth and andy in hearkening
16:38
Speaker 1: the Second Coming of Christ, right, yeah, so so like
16:43
Speaker 1: these renewal and reform movements have happened before, and in fact,
16:47
Speaker 1: some people trace Pentecostalism to one in the late nineteenth
16:51
Speaker 1: century called the Holiness Movement. And these these renewals um
16:56
Speaker 1: that follow in the tradition of the Holiness Movement. They
16:59
Speaker 1: are based on um, like a charismatic belief that's it's
17:04
Speaker 1: really easier to explain what it's not, and that is
17:06
Speaker 1: that stayed kind of call and response service where everybody
17:11
Speaker 1: sits down, stands up all at the same time, and
17:14
Speaker 1: it's it's very structured. Charismatic worship is the exact opposite
17:18
Speaker 1: of that. It's not structured. It almost seems like things
17:22
Speaker 1: are coming apart at the seams. Um. People are dancing
17:25
Speaker 1: and clapping, everybody's almost doing their own thing, and it's
17:28
Speaker 1: like there's a lot of room for you to have
17:31
Speaker 1: your own experience directly with the Holy Spirit, not necessarily
17:37
Speaker 1: just through this preacher or this priest or whoever is
17:40
Speaker 1: acting as the conduit like in a normal service. This
17:42
Speaker 1: is like the Holy spirits there in the room and
17:44
Speaker 1: everybody's interacting with it in their own way. Yeah, which
17:48
Speaker 1: Um sounds kind of fun, to be honest. I grew
17:51
Speaker 1: up in a Baptist church that was the opposite. It
17:54
Speaker 1: was one of these very sort of dry things. Every
17:58
Speaker 1: Sunday you would get your sermon that had to wrap
18:01
Speaker 1: up by noon because the pot roast was in the
18:04
Speaker 1: slow cooker and the falcons were gonna come on in
18:07
Speaker 1: an hour, and you could feel people getting anty. You know.
18:10
Speaker 1: It was just one of those deals. That's the church
18:12
Speaker 1: I went to. I remember we had a guy that
18:14
Speaker 1: came and visited one week that sat on the front
18:18
Speaker 1: row and started, uh started talking back, Oh yeah, oh yeah,
18:23
Speaker 1: started and just with like you know, you know, all
18:26
Speaker 1: all glory, hallelujah. So you know, they were just I
18:29
Speaker 1: was like, what is going on? Everyone did? Everyone was
18:32
Speaker 1: like what is this guy doing? Um, we don't do
18:35
Speaker 1: that here. There was They didn't say that, but that
18:38
Speaker 1: was the feeling. I think that man turned out to
18:42
Speaker 1: be St. Paul. I just remember being a kid and
18:46
Speaker 1: hearing him and seeing the reaction of people and getting
18:48
Speaker 1: the feeling that they're all like, don't screw this up
18:50
Speaker 1: for us, buddy, we uh yeah, right, were gonna doing things. Yeah,
18:54
Speaker 1: we can get out of here. In forty five minutes
18:55
Speaker 1: just clamb up. Um. I went to a funeral recently
18:59
Speaker 1: at a Pentecostal church and it was something else. But
19:04
Speaker 1: there there were people speaking in tongues and a lot
19:07
Speaker 1: of like shouting back and and like like you were saying,
19:10
Speaker 1: like that guy in the front row right there, Oh,
19:13
Speaker 1: I was in the thick of it. Yeah, And um,
19:16
Speaker 1: it was like it wasn't just that one guy, it
19:19
Speaker 1: was everybody there was doing that and they were doing
19:22
Speaker 1: it like at their own, like on their own terms,
19:24
Speaker 1: on their own speed, and um, it was really it
19:27
Speaker 1: was something to see. It was really impressive. I would
19:30
Speaker 1: pay cash money to see a hidden camera video of
19:34
Speaker 1: you during that. I was playing it super cool. I
19:37
Speaker 1: bet every once a while did you go right on man? Yeah,
19:41
Speaker 1: I said, freebird. I'm not into this, but you guys
19:45
Speaker 1: seem cool. No, I was. I was there and being
19:48
Speaker 1: explicitly not judging of course, you know, Like I was
19:52
Speaker 1: like I was a guest there, and I felt kind
19:54
Speaker 1: of honored to have been invited because everybody knew who
19:58
Speaker 1: knew me that was there knew that I'm not into
20:00
Speaker 1: that at all. But I also didn't want to put
20:03
Speaker 1: out any kind of vibe like I was being judging
20:05
Speaker 1: or anything. Would you even go if you're just gonna
20:07
Speaker 1: sit there and smirk, you know, that's no fun. Well yeah, exactly.
20:10
Speaker 1: But also I was very um. I had a lot
20:12
Speaker 1: of respect and admiration for the deceased, I thought, you
20:15
Speaker 1: can say. I was also very drunk. I had taken
20:20
Speaker 1: some shrooms a couple of hours before, and it really
20:23
Speaker 1: made everything even more interesting. That's cool. I'm glad you
20:25
Speaker 1: had that experience. Yeah, me too, Actually, me too. I
20:28
Speaker 1: think people should experience all kinds of things in their
20:30
Speaker 1: life like this that. But yeah, can possibly uncomfortable, exactly,
20:34
Speaker 1: And and like I could also see I was like, yeah,
20:37
Speaker 1: you know, like if you're really kind of open to
20:39
Speaker 1: this or even on the fence about it, you can
20:41
Speaker 1: feel how somebody would get swept up and be like, yeah,
20:45
Speaker 1: this is what I believe, you know. I mean, the
20:48
Speaker 1: word charismatic is an excellent word for um for that
20:54
Speaker 1: that type of worship, like it's perfect, but it's not.
20:56
Speaker 1: And we tend to think of it as like Pentecostals
20:59
Speaker 1: who just do that, and it's not. There's actually different
21:03
Speaker 1: charismatic movements that revived other Christian sex to like Catholicism
21:08
Speaker 1: had one back in nineteen seven, the Methodists had a
21:11
Speaker 1: charismatic revival, and um, it's typically kind of looked upon
21:16
Speaker 1: favorably by church leaders because they're like, all right, this
21:19
Speaker 1: is a little weird. We might start having to go
21:21
Speaker 1: an hour and a half of our services. But ultimately
21:24
Speaker 1: what it represents is people coming along and saying this
21:28
Speaker 1: religious sect is not dying. We're gonna breathe new life
21:31
Speaker 1: into it. Or if you believe in this kind of stuff,
21:34
Speaker 1: the Holy Spirit has chosen to breathe new life into
21:37
Speaker 1: this sect to keep it from dying off. Or it's
21:41
Speaker 1: good for business. That's another way to look at it
21:44
Speaker 1: for sure. And we'll we'll talk about some people who
21:46
Speaker 1: are who view the whole thing kind of transactionally to uh.
21:50
Speaker 1: So we should point out to you here about the
21:52
Speaker 1: different kinds of baptism. When we're talking about someone being
21:55
Speaker 1: quote unquote saved or baptized in the Holy Spirit, this
21:59
Speaker 1: is a you're at baptism. It is if you've seen
22:02
Speaker 1: uh people get dunked in the pool or in a river.
22:06
Speaker 1: If you're in a more rural church, that is a
22:09
Speaker 1: water baptism that is merely a symbolic public gesture to
22:14
Speaker 1: kind of celebrate and tell everyone, Hey, I had the
22:17
Speaker 1: spirit baptism. I'm saved now, so hey, get a load
22:21
Speaker 1: of me. Yeah, get a load of me. Watch I'll
22:23
Speaker 1: get dunked. Yeah. But if you're a Pentecostal, you're basically like,
22:27
Speaker 1: that's that's great. That's a nice first quarter step, right that.
22:32
Speaker 1: And it's not just Pentecostals who believe that, Like I
22:34
Speaker 1: think you know, if you're Catholic, when you're baptized, you're baptized.
22:38
Speaker 1: It's just done. You have a water baptism and you
22:40
Speaker 1: are officially baptized, your your your baby soul is not
22:43
Speaker 1: going to go to purgatory any longer. You can finally
22:45
Speaker 1: go to heaven, right with Like Baptists, I believe the
22:50
Speaker 1: water baptism is enough too. But what differentiates evangelicals from
22:56
Speaker 1: other other religious sects that believe that by Baptist baptism
23:00
Speaker 1: through water you're saved right then? Um? Evangelicals are like, no,
23:04
Speaker 1: you've just said that, Okay, I'm dedicating myself to God
23:07
Speaker 1: into Christ specifically. But what differentiates evangelicals is that there's
23:12
Speaker 1: still some other thing coming, and that's that baptism by
23:15
Speaker 1: the Holy Spirit. Well, it was the different in my church.
23:19
Speaker 1: It was you wait till you have that spiritual baptism
23:23
Speaker 1: and then afterward you have the public water baptism. Oh
23:26
Speaker 1: is that right? Okay, okay, so I've got that backwards.
23:29
Speaker 1: But but that's what so so even so, then I
23:32
Speaker 1: guess would Baptists be considered a type of evangelicals? I
23:36
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know either. But here's what I
23:39
Speaker 1: found that differentiates evangelicals or that defines evangelicals. You're ready.
23:44
Speaker 1: There's a scholar from Baylor. He's an historian, but he's
23:48
Speaker 1: also an evangelical scholar named David Bebington, David W. Bebington,
23:53
Speaker 1: and he defines evangelicals as subscribing to four big points.
23:58
Speaker 1: One is that the Bible is the literal word of God,
24:02
Speaker 1: where like, if you're reading that God wrote that, do
24:05
Speaker 1: not question it, do not try to interpret it any
24:07
Speaker 1: other way, Like it is literally on its face what
24:11
Speaker 1: it means is the word of God. The second second
24:15
Speaker 1: point is that Jesus, Jesus suffered on the cross and
24:20
Speaker 1: died in order to cover humanity, and that you can
24:26
Speaker 1: be saved by accepting that as fact. That Jesus Christ
24:31
Speaker 1: is your savior. Man, I feel like we're having a
24:34
Speaker 1: revival here ourselves. Okay, we've worked up this. The third
24:39
Speaker 1: one is that you have to be born again by
24:42
Speaker 1: a baptism by the Holy Spirit. So I don't know
24:44
Speaker 1: if you could technically get away with not doing the
24:47
Speaker 1: water baptism, because the evangelicals say it's that baptism by
24:53
Speaker 1: Holy Spirit where you're overcoming, you're clapping and singing and
24:55
Speaker 1: speaking in tongues and all that. Well, not speaking in tongues,
24:58
Speaker 1: but you're clapping and singing and you have like been
25:00
Speaker 1: bathed and baptized by the Holy Spirit. That that's how
25:03
Speaker 1: you're actually saved. Okay, okay. Point four is that you
25:09
Speaker 1: have to be an activist um an evangelists who is
25:13
Speaker 1: actively working on converting the world to Godliness uh and
25:19
Speaker 1: Christianity to prepare for the second coming of Christ. It's
25:22
Speaker 1: not enough to just be like, oh, they're doing it wrong.
25:25
Speaker 1: You have to go over and explain to them how
25:27
Speaker 1: they're doing it wrong and how to do it right. Yeah,
25:30
Speaker 1: I mean that was that was I think all four
25:32
Speaker 1: of those fall under what I grew up with in
25:33
Speaker 1: my church. Okay, then what then? What separates evangelicals from
25:38
Speaker 1: pentecostal is that Pentecostals believe that baptism by the Holy
25:42
Speaker 1: Spirit involves specifically speaking in tongues, and that if you
25:47
Speaker 1: don't speak in tongues when you're baptized by the Holy Spirit,
25:49
Speaker 1: you haven't actually been sanctified and made pure so that
25:54
Speaker 1: you can get into Heaven and you're a true you
25:56
Speaker 1: know Christian. I guess right, all right, that clears up
26:00
Speaker 1: a lot. Thank you. You can subscribe to my news letter. Um,
26:06
Speaker 1: so let's talk about speaking in tongues. There are a
26:09
Speaker 1: couple of ways that this can happen. Um. It's also
26:13
Speaker 1: called spontaneous speech. UM. It could come through as a
26:16
Speaker 1: foreign language that you don't know. They call that xenoglossia.
26:21
Speaker 1: There's basically no documented case of that ever. Right, So
26:26
Speaker 1: when I say this can happen, these are the ways
26:27
Speaker 1: that it's broken down in theory um or nonsensical utterances,
26:33
Speaker 1: which is called gloss lalia. And that's whinning. You know,
26:37
Speaker 1: if you've ever seen, well, if you've ever seen people
26:40
Speaker 1: speaking tongues, or if you've ever seen the movie Cape
26:42
Speaker 1: Fear with Robert de Niro at the end when he's
26:45
Speaker 1: going into the water. Um, that's that's what he's doing.
26:50
Speaker 1: Is it sounds it's a nonsensical divine utterance, is what
26:53
Speaker 1: it's defined as. Yes, supposedly God's the only one who
26:56
Speaker 1: can understand what you're saying, but you're actually speaking in
26:58
Speaker 1: a language that God understands. Right. And the other thing
27:01
Speaker 1: is somewhere in the Bible it says that if you're
27:04
Speaker 1: gonna speak in tongues, you should only do it in public,
27:08
Speaker 1: like if you're in church, you should only do that
27:10
Speaker 1: if there's someone there to interpret that message. And Pentecostals
27:13
Speaker 1: say nuts to that. They do because they the cynical
27:19
Speaker 1: person would say, they don't have anyone there that could
27:22
Speaker 1: interpret that accurately. Um, the believer would just say that's
27:28
Speaker 1: They just say, that's a bunk. So back at a
27:30
Speaker 1: Zuza Street mission during the Revival of nineteen o six
27:34
Speaker 1: or starting nineteen o six, they they said they reported
27:38
Speaker 1: so there was a newspaper, um called the Apostolic Faith
27:42
Speaker 1: Newspaper that was published out of a Zusa Street And
27:46
Speaker 1: Um they said that during the revival, people were speaking
27:49
Speaker 1: in Greek, Italian, Chinese, Japanese, Zulu, Chippewa. Uh yeah, Um,
27:57
Speaker 1: and there's again there's no documented evidence that anyone has
28:00
Speaker 1: ever um been given the gift of zena glossia, which
28:04
Speaker 1: is where you are just fluently speaking another language that
28:09
Speaker 1: you don't know that you you have acquired the ability
28:12
Speaker 1: to speak another language without studying it in any way,
28:17
Speaker 1: shape or form. No one's ever um documented that. But
28:21
Speaker 1: that was one of the early interpretations of what was
28:23
Speaker 1: going on at a Zusa Street, that they the Holy
28:26
Speaker 1: Spirit had come down given these people the gift of
28:29
Speaker 1: zeno glossia, and now there they were to spread out
28:32
Speaker 1: and become missionaries around the world too, so that they
28:35
Speaker 1: could go spread the faith in these other native tongues.
28:38
Speaker 1: Um and a lot of people did do that. I
28:40
Speaker 1: don't know that they were able to immediately go and
28:43
Speaker 1: speak in these other native tongues, but they probably picked
28:46
Speaker 1: it up pretty quickly because immersion is the best way
28:48
Speaker 1: to do it. But people did spread out from Azusa
28:51
Speaker 1: Street and become um Pentecostal missionaries and founded Pentecostal churches.
28:56
Speaker 1: Like that really is like kind of like the the
28:59
Speaker 1: the origin point for the entire faith. Well, and wouldn't
29:03
Speaker 1: you say that it's clearly like the Pentecostal Um missionaries
29:10
Speaker 1: have done a great job considering it. The fact that
29:13
Speaker 1: it's growing in the Global South. Yeah, how else would
29:16
Speaker 1: they have heard about this stuff? Right? Yeah? Absolutely? Yeah.
29:19
Speaker 1: I think the proof is in the numbers, that that
29:22
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people who are out there spreading
29:24
Speaker 1: the word, and that there's a lot of people who
29:26
Speaker 1: are feeling pretty receptive to that. Should we talk a
29:29
Speaker 1: little bit about some more numbers? Um? The Pulletzer Center
29:34
Speaker 1: Pulletzer Centers Atlas of pentecostal is M estimates that thirty
29:40
Speaker 1: thirty five thousand people convert to pentecostal is Um every day,
29:44
Speaker 1: every day. Um. We were talking about the Global South.
29:48
Speaker 1: The Redeemed Christian Church of God in Nigeria claims to
29:53
Speaker 1: have five million members in Nigeria alone. There's an article
29:58
Speaker 1: that I read called I think Christianity is dying. No,
30:03
Speaker 1: Christianity is shifting dramatically from West Grandberg Michaelson from two
30:07
Speaker 1: thousand fifteen in the Washington Post. So should we talk
30:12
Speaker 1: about more numbers or should we take a break and
30:14
Speaker 1: talk about more numbers. Let's take a break and then
30:16
Speaker 1: we'll talk more numbers. Okay, okay, alright, Tock late lay
30:52
Speaker 1: some numbers on us. Man. Let me see here in
30:56
Speaker 1: more Christians were found in the global South than the
30:58
Speaker 1: North for the first time in a thousand years. Uh.
31:02
Speaker 1: In the Christian community in Latin American Africa alone account
31:05
Speaker 1: for one billion people. Yeah, and that's I mean, that's
31:08
Speaker 1: pretty significant. How much how many or how I don't
31:13
Speaker 1: I don't know how to say this, how much or
31:14
Speaker 1: how many inroads? How much inroads? Neither ones? It sounds
31:18
Speaker 1: like I'm speaking in tongues. So the how the inroads
31:25
Speaker 1: that Pentecostals have made over time, um, because there's like
31:29
Speaker 1: I think half a billion evangelicals and um, like two
31:34
Speaker 1: thirds of those are Pentecostals right around the world. There's
31:38
Speaker 1: like one point two billion Catholics, and forever the Catholics
31:41
Speaker 1: have just been virtually untouchable, at least as far as
31:44
Speaker 1: Christianity goes. Um. But the the Evangelicals are really kind
31:49
Speaker 1: of starting to nip at their heels. And the other
31:51
Speaker 1: thing that's that's um remarkable about it is just how
31:54
Speaker 1: fast this is happening. Like like you're saying, it seems
31:56
Speaker 1: like Onward was like a watershed chain and shift in
32:01
Speaker 1: the growth of of Pentecostalism and evangelicalism around the world,
32:06
Speaker 1: but it is kind of concentrated in that that Global South,
32:10
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of people are trying to figure
32:13
Speaker 1: out exactly why. UM. One of the reasons why is
32:17
Speaker 1: because in the Global South, you know, parts of Africa,
32:21
Speaker 1: Latin America, parts of Southeast Asia, UM, there there are
32:27
Speaker 1: traditional religions still that are charismatic in structure right to
32:33
Speaker 1: where you're interacting with spirits and you know, they have
32:36
Speaker 1: an influence on your daily life and UM when you
32:39
Speaker 1: engage in worship that may include dancing and singing and
32:43
Speaker 1: individual expressions of being touched by you know, these these
32:47
Speaker 1: spirits are the spirit and it bears a really striking
32:50
Speaker 1: resemblance to Pentecostalism, so much so that if you kind
32:53
Speaker 1: of trace Pentecostalism back you you can't help but wonder,
32:57
Speaker 1: like did the exported religions from Frica to say, like
33:01
Speaker 1: the Caribbean UM help shape Pentecostalism, and that Pentecostalism is
33:06
Speaker 1: kind of like a like a reformed version of reformed
33:10
Speaker 1: Christian version of this kind of UM worship that's now
33:15
Speaker 1: being re exported back to the Global South, and that
33:18
Speaker 1: that is what this part of the explanation for this
33:22
Speaker 1: UM really eager receptionism among people in Latin America and
33:26
Speaker 1: Africa and Southeast Asia. So the idea is that it
33:29
Speaker 1: wasn't that big of a mental leap at the very least,
33:33
Speaker 1: It's not like it's probably harder to to UM, introduce
33:41
Speaker 1: Pentecostalism to Catholics in Cleveland than it is to um,
33:48
Speaker 1: you know, people who follow Mashimo and Guatemala, because it
33:53
Speaker 1: just because the type of worship bears a lot more
33:57
Speaker 1: of a resemblance to to one another than it was
34:00
Speaker 1: to say, like Catholics in Cleveland and the way that
34:02
Speaker 1: they're used to worshiping. It makes sense so that they're
34:04
Speaker 1: already kind of like okay, yeah, I get this, like
34:06
Speaker 1: I can identify with this. It makes sense to me. Well.
34:09
Speaker 1: The other thing too, that UM, I think of this
34:11
Speaker 1: WAPO article, it gives a lot of food for thought
34:14
Speaker 1: that Grandberg Michaelson tackles is uh immigration and migration UM.
34:20
Speaker 1: Two d and fourteen million people and this was four
34:23
Speaker 1: years ago have moved from their country to another country
34:28
Speaker 1: as migrants and refugees. UM. That's a lot of people,
34:32
Speaker 1: and about half of those a hundred and five million
34:36
Speaker 1: of those people are Christians, which is a way higher
34:40
Speaker 1: percentage than the you know, the comparable percentage of Christians
34:43
Speaker 1: in the world. Yeah, so Christians are moving around the
34:46
Speaker 1: world in big numbers everywhere, from the Middle East, in Africa,
34:50
Speaker 1: the Mediterranean. And he makes a really good point that
34:55
Speaker 1: like the same people in this country who are advocating
35:01
Speaker 1: against immigration in the United States, a lot of them
35:04
Speaker 1: are would consider themselves Christian people's and so he's like,
35:10
Speaker 1: there's a disconnect between like these people coming up from Guatemala, Mexico,
35:16
Speaker 1: a lot of which are Christian, saying well, we don't
35:19
Speaker 1: want you here, even though that would help them further
35:22
Speaker 1: a Christian and religious agenda, right exactly. And it's a
35:26
Speaker 1: weird disconnect there, it is, because you're saying, like, well,
35:29
Speaker 1: you know, we are all Pentecostals here, but you're also
35:32
Speaker 1: from a different country further south than us. So like
35:35
Speaker 1: that's the dividing line. The other thing that he he
35:38
Speaker 1: points out is that migration typically tends to strengthen religious
35:43
Speaker 1: faith and increase it so that the people who show
35:45
Speaker 1: up are typically super religious. And it's just a process
35:50
Speaker 1: of migration can make you yeah, exactly, and to to
35:55
Speaker 1: make it makes you be like, wow, there must be
35:57
Speaker 1: a God or else I wouldn't have made it here.
35:59
Speaker 1: You know. So that the people who show up on
36:01
Speaker 1: your doorstep as migrants are typically extremely religious. And he
36:05
Speaker 1: points out that like both sides of the political equation
36:08
Speaker 1: should be happy about that. UM. That like these these
36:12
Speaker 1: spiritual renewals and and religious movements, you know, they can
36:17
Speaker 1: be a double edged sword. On the one hand, they
36:19
Speaker 1: can have they can call for very strict um behavioral codes,
36:24
Speaker 1: women's reproductive rights can fall by the wayside or just
36:28
Speaker 1: be suppressed outright. UM. But on the other hand, they
36:31
Speaker 1: can also be good for society's morals, like they those
36:34
Speaker 1: same strict behavioral codes also keep people in line and
36:38
Speaker 1: keep them from doing crime. UM. And that that it
36:42
Speaker 1: can it can be good and bad, like with the UM.
36:45
Speaker 1: The it's called the Second Grade Awakening. In the middle
36:48
Speaker 1: of the nineteenth century in America. It was a huge
36:51
Speaker 1: religious movement, and it's credited with UM helping start the
36:54
Speaker 1: movement to abolish slavery in the United States and to
36:58
Speaker 1: UH to UH introduced the idea of women's suffrage. On
37:02
Speaker 1: the other hand, it also introduced the Temperance movement, which
37:05
Speaker 1: just was one of the worst things we've ever done.
37:08
Speaker 1: But there there are like good and bad pluses and
37:11
Speaker 1: minuses too general, you know, major religious movements and reawakenings.
37:16
Speaker 1: Um And I think what this guy is saying is
37:18
Speaker 1: there's a lot of pluses and positives that can come
37:21
Speaker 1: with migrants, even though they're being portrayed in the exact
37:25
Speaker 1: opposite light that there you know, rapists and murderers and criminals. Actually,
37:29
Speaker 1: the people who are showing up as migrants are probably
37:32
Speaker 1: more religious than the average American is, especially in America,
37:36
Speaker 1: because religiousness in America is showing to be declining. So again,
37:41
Speaker 1: you would think that people who were religious would want
37:44
Speaker 1: their numbers to swell, even if it is through you know,
37:47
Speaker 1: these migrants that they don't feel very highly about. It's
37:50
Speaker 1: a very interesting juxtaposition, yes, very chuck, very So that's Pentecostals.
38:00
Speaker 1: You got anything else? I got nothing else, man. They
38:02
Speaker 1: are interesting. I was reading about them. They will break
38:05
Speaker 1: off into a new church at the drop of a
38:07
Speaker 1: hat over like a couple of words, man, And it's
38:10
Speaker 1: happened very frequently. It's really interesting stuff to read their
38:13
Speaker 1: history because it's also so modern and recent too. You know,
38:17
Speaker 1: you can it's you know, a little over a century old,
38:20
Speaker 1: so you can kind of recognize a lot of it
38:22
Speaker 1: and identify with it. Okay, well that's it for Pentecostals.
38:27
Speaker 1: And since I said that, it's time for listener mail. Uh,
38:30
Speaker 1: this is a very very sweet email. Is this the
38:33
Speaker 1: one janitors? Yeah? So if you remember, we talked about
38:38
Speaker 1: with great fondness about our high school janitors in the
38:41
Speaker 1: Transdermal Implant podcast. Of course, as you do. I'm not
38:46
Speaker 1: sure how we got on that tangent. I don't even uh,
38:49
Speaker 1: but this is from Emily. She says, Josh talked about
38:53
Speaker 1: how his janitor was a grizzled older woman. Chuck mentioned
38:56
Speaker 1: that his was a tall, lanky gentleman. But despite the differences,
38:59
Speaker 1: you both remembered them with such affection and respect. It
39:02
Speaker 1: gave me the warm fuzzies hearing you talk so fondly
39:04
Speaker 1: of these people. For the simple fact that my grandma
39:07
Speaker 1: was a high school janitor. She is one of the sweetest,
39:10
Speaker 1: classiest people I've ever known, but one of the hardest
39:13
Speaker 1: workers as well. She worked at the high school in
39:15
Speaker 1: her little town of Gettysburg, South Dakota with my grandpa,
39:19
Speaker 1: who was a science, art and health teacher for at
39:22
Speaker 1: least twenty five years. My mom was born and raised
39:25
Speaker 1: in this town and talks about whenever she was having
39:27
Speaker 1: a bad day or didn't feel like going to class,
39:29
Speaker 1: she would just find out where her mom was cleaning,
39:31
Speaker 1: go hang out with her for a bit. That's so cute.
39:34
Speaker 1: Like me, when it's my father, the principle, I would
39:38
Speaker 1: do the same thing. Yeah, I think that's very sweet.
39:40
Speaker 1: Needs to get out of here, come back to class here,
39:42
Speaker 1: take some dome domes, and get out of here. As
39:45
Speaker 1: for how my grandma enjoyed her work as a janitor,
39:47
Speaker 1: she says she didn't mind most of the cleaning, except
39:50
Speaker 1: whenever someone threw up. I can imagine you could. You
39:54
Speaker 1: could go your whole life without ever getting used to that.
39:56
Speaker 1: And Emily closes with this, I just want to remind
39:58
Speaker 1: everyone out there that your janitor is someone's grandma or
40:02
Speaker 1: mom or dad or uncle or whatever. They are special
40:05
Speaker 1: to someone, so please treat them and their job with respect.
40:10
Speaker 1: I love the show, guys. Keep up with a good work,
40:12
Speaker 1: and thanks for always being kind and respectful of everyone.
40:16
Speaker 1: And that is from Emily. I hope we were kind
40:18
Speaker 1: of respectfully Christians today. I'm pretty sure we were. I
40:23
Speaker 1: think we did an okay job. Yeah, thanks a lot
40:25
Speaker 1: for that one, Emily. She also sent a picture of
40:28
Speaker 1: um a photo from the newspaper of her grandma and
40:32
Speaker 1: grandpa together at school and they are a cute cute couple. Yep,
40:36
Speaker 1: I love it. Well. If you want to tell us
40:39
Speaker 1: something adorable, we love that kind of stuff. You can
40:42
Speaker 1: get in touch with us by sending us an email,
40:44
Speaker 1: Wrap it up, spank it on the bottom, and send
40:47
Speaker 1: it off to Stuff podcast at iHeart radio dot com.
40:55
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40:57
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