Latest / The BioHub - by Avetix / Episode 215 - Nykode - Michael & Agnete - CEO & CSO

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Episode 215 - Nykode - Michael & Agnete - CEO & CSO · The BioHub - by Avetix

0:06
So welcome back to another episode of the Bio Hub and
0:09
Avetix podcasts. Today I'm joined by Michael
0:12
Enzi, CEO of Nycode Therapeutics and Agnata Free Dixon, Co
0:18
founder and CSO. Agnata helped develop the Vaxi
0:21
body technology platform and has been part of Nycode's journey
0:24
since the beginning, while Michael joined in 2019 and has
0:28
helped lead the company's growth into one of Norway's leading
0:31
biotech businesses. Nycode is a clinical stage
0:34
biotech company developing targeted immunotherapies for
0:37
cancer and autoimmune diseases. In this conversation, we talk
0:42
about the founding story of Nycode, the resurgence of cancer
0:45
vaccines, navigating the biotech boom and downturn, building
0:50
culture through rapid growth, and what is next for the
0:53
company. Pleasure to have you guys.
0:55
How are you? Very good.
0:57
Thanks. Nice.
0:58
Thanks for having us. Pleasure.
0:59
It's really pleasure to have you on.
1:01
Really it is. I want to start with the
1:05
beginning of the company. So probably makes sense to to
1:08
come to you first. Agnator you Co founded Nico
1:12
almost 20 years ago. What?
1:17
What was the original vision for the company?
1:19
The vision Vision was a nice tell to to transform the the
1:23
treatment of cancer patients with the something as simple and
1:28
with as little side effects as a a cancer vaccine.
1:32
That was the original vision. So really want every single
1:36
cancer patient to receive a cancer vaccine that is
1:41
customized to their own cancer cells in order to optimize the
1:46
likelihood that their immune system is able to attack their
1:48
own cancer with very limited side effects.
1:52
That's still the vision. And in slightly more details, we
1:57
at that time point were a bit frustrated with the state of the
2:03
cancer vaccines. So we all knew cancer vaccines
2:06
needs to be taken up by certain small cell type in the in our
2:11
immune system. And what we did was to make sure
2:15
by making a targeted vaccine that these vaccines then would
2:21
all be going to the right cells in the in your body that is the
2:26
one that is able to elicit this immune, immune response that can
2:31
attack cancer cells. So that was our way getting into
2:37
helping patients. I think it's also quite
2:41
important to say this is something that you first
2:44
developed in during your PhD as well.
2:46
You know, it's put out quite a while ago.
2:49
How? How was the transition from PhD
2:52
studies to then building the company?
2:56
Well, it was also since we based in Norway, everything is slow
3:00
journey and the journey that I've grown tremendously through.
3:06
There is not a huge support system in in Norway for for
3:09
biotech companies. So we took our time making sure
3:14
we created all the foundation I did partly PhD, partly post DOC,
3:19
partly chief scientific officer in the first few years covering
3:24
everything from from research to development, CMC, business
3:30
development, investor relations. So obviously a journey that this
3:37
is maybe was maybe not optimal for speed, but for me
3:40
personally, a real journey that enables growth for me and
3:44
understanding of everything that needs to be done in order to
3:49
have a successful biotech company.
3:51
Yeah, and we'll, we'll get more into the to the growth of
3:54
Nicode. Michael, you, you spend your
3:58
career across both pharma and biotech.
4:01
What convinced you to to join Nicode?
4:05
So when I, when I joined NICODE in 2019, I had already been
4:09
working with our NEDA and the team for, for a little bit more
4:13
than two years in the capacity of my previous position as a
4:17
strategic advisor to, to biotech companies working in Northern
4:21
Europe. And had come to known both the
4:25
designs and the emerging data from the technology, the team
4:29
around our leader, the board of, of the company and some of the
4:35
the major investors. I think it was the combination
4:39
of, of that, the opportunity to work with a very, very engaged
4:43
team of, of people, very bright people and the science that was
4:49
just looking more and more convincing and compelling and a
4:53
good healthy environment around it that that compelled me to, to
4:56
move to this one, this opportunity here.
4:59
So it it felt actually as a as a pretty easy decision back in
5:03
2019. That's amazing.
5:05
Yeah. And both of you have helped
5:07
build Nicode. What was the journey being like?
5:13
And then how do you see the Norwegian biotech ecosystem
5:16
evolving as well, obviously being been mostly in Norway.
5:20
I don't know if you want to start Anita with just with the
5:22
the start of the growth for the beginning of Nycode and then
5:25
maybe you know how big Michael's hire was and then Michael if you
5:29
want to take the growth from there.
5:33
Yeah, I think, I mean I only have the experience of being
5:36
Norwegian coming out of Norwegian university, so.
5:41
But what I can say also now is that Norway is a very highly
5:46
developed country and a rich country in many states, but
5:52
mostly on natural resources and oil and fishing, etc.
5:56
So biotech. We have a very strong scientific
5:59
community, academic community, a lot in immunotherapy actually.
6:04
But to transfer that into biotech and the industry, it's
6:09
not been a lot of historic focus in in Norway.
6:14
So I think that basically leads to that.
6:19
We had very strong science as a as a basis and then maybe they
6:24
had to learn to swim a bit ourselves in the first few
6:27
years. That takes some of the speed out
6:29
of the process, but it also creates a team of people with a
6:35
high level of perseverance and guts and courage to move on
6:41
without just being able to talk to the neighbor and get a lot of
6:47
help and support and experience. So I don't necessarily regret
6:52
it. I think it's now made us a
6:54
stronger company. And in the beginning, I think
7:00
you can, you can do that without a lot of support system as long
7:03
as you fight, fight for your survival.
7:07
Then at a certain time point, it was extremely important step for
7:10
us to reach into, into Denmark and, and the historic, you know,
7:16
decades of experience with lots of biotech companies, also
7:22
investor communities and and also pharma companies that's
7:26
done well. And to get them into the company
7:30
and combine that with that sort of founder spirit can do
7:36
mentality that we had in the in the beginning.
7:40
So we did, you know, took some time for us to start to develop
7:44
the first product. We got it into the clinic and
7:47
then as a small team based in Norway, which may be for the
7:53
biotech communities and the outskirts, we were one of the
7:57
first companies engaging into fully individualized cancer
8:01
vaccines where we needed to set up a lot of additional systems
8:05
with the logistics of taking biopsy sample sequencing and
8:11
manufacturing one vaccine per patient.
8:14
So I think that comes from this perseverance and courage of
8:18
being in a setup where we were not told too many times that
8:25
this cannot be done. We just had to find our own way.
8:29
And then when we were mature enough, we, we got in more and
8:34
more of experienced people that could help us merge this into a,
8:41
a successful biotech story. And, and Michael is definitely
8:44
one of those. He's been there almost a decade
8:46
now, helped build the company, create the the right level of
8:52
structures, not necessarily too many structures I would say
8:55
still and create this nice fusion between my experience
9:00
from from big companies with what we also are really based on
9:06
a a strong scientific foundation with the can do mentality.
9:13
I don't know if you want to add to that as well, Michael.
9:16
Well, sure, sure. And I think it's a great
9:18
question, Max, because quite often we, we tend to get boxed
9:21
into, into this label of being a Norwegian biotech company.
9:24
And, and you know, we are, you know, formally a Norwegian
9:29
company. But, but the biology we do with
9:31
the science of the biology is, is universal.
9:33
And our access to partners is as global as any other biotech
9:38
companies. So we've signed agreements,
9:40
collaboration agreements and deals with some of the best U.S.
9:43
companies anyway. So, so, you know, in many ways,
9:47
I don't feel in any way that we are, you know, confined or
9:50
restricted to, to 1 country. But I do agree with with down
9:54
either. There are, I think probably 2
9:55
areas where it does matter. One is access to talent and
9:59
experience. And as as you said only there we
10:02
we quite early realised we do need to expand out and be able
10:06
to access experienced talents from from other from other
10:12
countries, especially the kind of experience that is dealing
10:15
with drug development and long term experience with with that.
10:20
So that I think we've we've overcome I think pretty
10:25
effectively. The other aspect is the local
10:29
investors. A a company always tend to get a
10:31
good strong stronghold in in the country of of a region and and
10:37
always is slightly different from some of the other countries
10:41
around us in the sense that there is a very, very strong and
10:44
very effective successful family office community here.
10:49
With family offices host wealth have been generated on something
10:53
else earlier in, in, in life who then tend to invest into the
10:57
industry locally. And at the end other end of, of
11:01
this extreme, there is a, a normal retail investor segment
11:07
and, and retail is notoriously quite short term focused
11:13
compared to, to family offices and institutional long term
11:16
investors. And biotech is anything but
11:19
short term. I mean, developing drug takes a
11:21
decade. And I think that that that can
11:24
sometimes be be a change. The type of investors that I
11:28
would have loved to see more of in, in Norway is the
11:32
institutional investors that go in and and also take positions
11:36
in companies like ours. And there are few of those with
11:41
experience and, and, and insight into biotech and life science
11:45
then you would find in, in our neighboring countries around
11:48
here. So I think that that's actually
11:50
where we see the, the biggest difference between being a
11:53
Norwegian focused company and a Danish or, or Swedish or British
11:59
biotech company. Biotech really doesn't think it,
12:01
it creates too many constraints in the daily life.
12:04
We consider ourselves to be a, you know, globally focused
12:08
biotech company with strong roots in the in the Norwegian
12:13
scientific community. Yeah, I could see that for sure.
12:17
And then I need to you, you talked about the cancer vaccine
12:22
point as well there, which is as a market it's been in quite a
12:26
journey itself. Why?
12:30
Why do you think that it's now gaining momentum again after
12:34
what seemed like a a period it struggled in?
12:36
Maybe. I don't know if you want to word
12:38
it that way. Yeah, no, it goes in waves.
12:42
I think as I mentioned in the beginning, I think the vision
12:46
for me has always been to to offer every cancer patient a
12:51
cancer vaccine as the first treatment.
12:54
So, So that is one thing. I think now we're seeing
12:58
ourselves at the point in time where we see cancer vaccines are
13:04
at the virtue of getting the final large phase three readouts
13:08
in early, early stage patients for the very first time
13:13
actually. And we also see technology,
13:17
science, the understanding of what how does the cancer cells
13:21
look like, how are they for and what should you target in those
13:24
cells. The access of everything is just
13:29
now. I think the environment is
13:33
supporting ourselves in this community.
13:37
So we're finally going to get the cancer vaccines placed where
13:41
they're supposed to be in early stage patients, which means
13:45
patients where you have detected the tumor for the first time,
13:49
maybe even removed it with surgery or radiotherapy, and
13:52
then you treat with a cancer vaccine that can prevent that
13:56
you get recurrence. So I think it's all the
14:00
knowledge about sequencing and also finally getting regulatory
14:08
to understand that we need to treat the patients with this
14:13
modality as early as possible. So there's nothing really
14:17
fundamentally changed. It's just time, but it moves
14:20
slowly in the right direction. And now we're finally here.
14:24
I think this year it's a lot of activity, a lot of readouts, and
14:29
a lot of hopes. After a few more silent years in
14:33
cancer vaccines, I agree. It looks like it's definitely
14:36
coming through. I don't know if you want to add
14:38
to that. Yeah.
14:39
No, no, just the the historical perspective.
14:41
I mean all these emerging technologies and concepts do
14:45
take time to to hone and mature in, in biotech and we saw the
14:49
same thing with with antibodies when they first emerged.
14:53
Now everybody consider that almost one of the most
14:56
standardized way of, of addressing A molecular target,
14:59
but they also struggled a lot in the, in the first decades of, of
15:03
trying to develop it and mature to a stage where it could
15:06
actually be applied as a, as a treatment for, for patients.
15:09
Same thing with cell therapies, which is still somehow
15:12
struggling by part emerging. And I think we should just look
15:15
at cancer vaccines the the same way as as as you said, only the,
15:19
the we had a lot of different ancillary technologies and tools
15:23
that needed to be developed to really help the, the concept
15:26
along along the way. And these seems to be coming all
15:29
together this, this, this moment in, in time.
15:32
So, so it looks better than it has for a very, very long time
15:36
for cancer vaccines these years. Yeah.
15:40
And then when we talk about your journey and growth, the
15:45
partnerships that you you've got with some, you know, like
15:48
Genentech and Regeneron, it's a big, big part.
15:53
What what did those deals mean for the company and and for its
15:57
future? I don't that makes sense for you
16:01
to answer, Michael. Well, I think it makes sense for
16:04
both of us to answer and I think we can talk target length about
16:09
this and I will, I will humbly lead into this one here.
16:15
But but, but fully recognizing that our leader was actually
16:19
responsible not only for establishing the contact talk to
16:22
our partners through years, but also doing the, the business
16:26
development part of the of the company back then.
16:29
So I think that's an interesting story in itself to hear how you,
16:32
how you as a very innovative small biotech company built
16:35
relationship to such impressive companies.
16:38
But I think just looking at the corporate part of it, the, the
16:42
first, very last collaboration was with Genentech.
16:47
It was not the first collaboration we had with the
16:50
US. There were other collaboration
16:51
with US very innovative partners in the US.
16:53
So the concept of working with US partners was was not neutral
16:56
to Michael, but this was the first very big pharma like
17:00
company and and that changes things when you start working
17:03
with those kind of people. Genentech was and it is a group
17:09
of very nice people San Francisco based if if that says
17:13
anything to us, but but they are very nice, genuinely nice to, to
17:16
work with. But when we started working with
17:20
them, we had a team of of maybe 5 to 10 people working on this
17:23
program. And I still remember the first
17:25
kickoff meeting with those guys. They turned off I think more
17:28
than 50 people on on the kickoff team in one big.
17:32
This was also during the COVID challenges.
17:34
So in one big teams meeting with, with more than 50 people
17:37
online and you feel overwhelmed and then you add the time
17:42
difference 9 hours from from Orchard Copenhagen to San
17:45
Francisco. So you need to start working in
17:48
completely different ways than we were used to.
17:52
I think it, it gave us a lot of self-confidence.
17:56
It felt like an external validation to us, not just to
18:01
our environment, but also to us that that a partner like
18:04
Genentech want to work with us. But it also gave us a lot of
18:09
experience in in the company. So knowledge sharing between
18:13
between the function. So I think across all
18:15
disciplines, we have learnt a lot through that partnership
18:21
with with Genentech from early signs to CMC to clinical
18:25
development to commercial thinking, governance structures,
18:30
All these partnerships help you mature a company.
18:34
And having different partnerships with different
18:36
partners also just gives another dimension because different
18:40
partners handled these things very differently.
18:42
It's, it's, it's been a world of difference to work with a, a San
18:46
Francisco based Genentech and a East Coast based Regeneron,
18:54
very, very different styles. So there's also been a pleasure
18:56
to to learn that I I don't know if you want to add something on,
18:59
on top only on on building the, the relationship also.
19:06
Yeah, I know. I mean, so being based in
19:09
Norway, I think you always considered it super important
19:12
to, to think globally. And I, I think both you and me,
19:16
Michael still considered these people one of our closest
19:20
friends. We've had a lot of interactions
19:24
and a lot of dinners and a lot of scientific discussions.
19:28
So it feels like you're breaking down the boundaries of of this
19:33
different countries and the and then in the map through through
19:38
these collaborations. But I also think it's important
19:42
in even though in the genetic collaboration, sort of the big
19:46
part of that collaboration was a joint clinical study, but both
19:51
collaborations with genetic and Regeneron knowing that we had a
19:55
platform of targeting antigens to antigen presenting cells and
19:59
with a lot of. Opportunities both to understand
20:02
the platform better, but also to continue to think through ways
20:06
of improving it. We've had the benefit as a small
20:11
biotech company in Norway to basically have the best research
20:16
groups in the world to work with us on the platform for all this
20:21
period. And we learnt a lot through
20:25
those collaborations that we now can sit and sort of harvest the
20:28
fruits from when we continue to to have the confidence we have
20:33
in our BC work, which is in phase two randomized trial on
20:38
the back of everything we learnt and also continue to work on our
20:42
individualized cancer vaccine and all other programs including
20:46
autoimmunity. There is.
20:48
I don't think you can put any value on that part of the
20:52
collaboration either. And I still call these people
20:56
and discuss formally and informally about everything is
20:59
happening in the world and how we can apply it with what we are
21:05
currently focused on. I love that it came back to, you
21:10
know, the previous question about Norwegian slash global
21:14
company and should really just validate that point.
21:18
We've talked about your growth a little bit, but I just want to
21:21
talk mostly about this period around COVID, you know, where
21:26
you you experienced rapid growth followed by an era we went into
21:31
which was a tougher market. How did that impact you guys and
21:36
what what lesson did you you take away from that?
21:41
You don't. Start, Michael.
21:43
Yeah. Yeah, I know.
21:45
So, So just for context, we signed the, the, the deal with
21:50
Genentech in the early days of, of, of the COVID pandemic, which
21:56
means that both travels to, to the US to do the negotiations,
22:02
but also travels between Denmark and Norway and travels from your
22:07
home to your office have been restricted in many ways.
22:11
And Norway was, was one of the countries that quite early
22:14
actually restricted or, or put some, some limits and guardrails
22:19
on, on people coming to work. So, so we had to work from home.
22:23
So when we, when we did the, the first agreement, that also gave
22:29
us the, the capsule that we we need to kick off a very rapid
22:34
growth period where we expanded our focus for the platform,
22:39
which today have led to us also including autoimmune diseases as
22:43
part of our our platform. So some of the work was
22:45
initiated there, which meant we had to have additional talents,
22:49
additional resources, which means we, we had to continue
22:52
growing despite the fact that we could even come to the work.
22:55
I couldn't even travel to Australia to meet these people.
22:57
So during the pandemic, the, the company actually doubled in, in
23:02
size without me or, or needing meeting one single of these
23:07
persons in people in, in person. So the sort of the company had
23:12
transformed when we emerged out of the pandemic situation and
23:16
we're actually able to to travel and, and see each other again.
23:19
It it had transformed more than double in in size.
23:21
So, so that was obviously a, a huge challenge.
23:25
And I think it, it, it's taken us some years to, to try to, to
23:31
fix some of the, the gaps that is created when you hire such a
23:33
large amount of people during such a period here.
23:37
We continue the growth afterwards.
23:39
And I think we, we got a lot of very, very good people on board,
23:46
But but we did struggle with maintaining the original very
23:51
entrepreneurial culture as as we grew.
23:55
And I'd say one of the things that that I agreed there was I
24:00
think we, we added too many governance structures and
24:04
processes into, into our daily work.
24:08
I think we have now come a long way in removing those governance
24:12
galleries and red tapes internally in, in the company
24:16
really focused on, on the what we consider the winning culture
24:20
was the culture without silos in, in the company, a culture
24:24
where everybody feels they are part of a project, one or more
24:28
projects. And we typically mainly talk
24:32
about projects, we very seldomly talk about departments and
24:37
everybody needs to have accountability for, for the
24:40
deliverables and and the success.
24:42
I think we've been very, very successful with that also.
24:45
And, and it means, I mean thinks just to take an example, the
24:51
aspect of business development used to be considered something
24:54
a little bit a part of the of the projects.
24:57
Now we have successfully integrated that into the part of
25:01
the responsibility of of the program leads, which means the
25:05
the predominant scientific team that is running main parts of of
25:10
a program developed program with us also consider supporting the
25:14
whole business development process a very, very important
25:17
part of their accountability. I think that's probably one of
25:20
the the areas I've been most proud of for, for the last year
25:25
in, in US further improving and holding the the winning culture
25:29
of, of of my code to, to where we are today.
25:34
I think we've been extremely successful in removing both the
25:38
horizontal lines and the vertical lines in the company
25:41
feels like what is successful in our companies really be one big
25:46
company where all people are working in the right direction
25:49
and nobody refers to their job description as a limitation.
25:54
But but really just you know, to have this can do mentality and
26:00
raises their hand and say, OK, if you're like swamped over
26:03
there, I I can come and help. I want to support, I want to
26:07
grow. So that mentality I think is
26:11
extremely important for a biotech company in order to be
26:14
competitive internationally, but but also makes it much more fun
26:20
for everyone to go go to work. We do have something called
26:24
happiness ninjas. I don't really know who they
26:28
are, but they're they are sort of focused on that we're happy,
26:33
which includes that we are working very hard.
26:38
Yeah, I also wanted to say that on during COVID that we had the
26:41
very special situation because we were 29 people or something
26:47
when we signed the deal with Genentech.
26:49
And I think the day, everything, the week, everything closed in,
26:54
in Norway, we were basically supposed to be home for two
27:00
days, travelling from San Francisco, home for a couple of
27:05
days, going back to negotiate with Regeneron and then
27:09
everything closed down. So the last few months of these
27:14
collaboration negotiations, we had to do them not, not even on
27:19
teams. We didn't have video calls these
27:21
days. We were in constant sort of late
27:25
night Scandinavian time negotiations without even seeing
27:29
the face of the content part. And I think if that hadn't been
27:34
on the back of establishing a very good relationship
27:39
personally by actually travelling and seeing each other
27:43
on the before, that I think would be much more challenging.
27:48
We did have periods before that where we had to juggle people
27:53
coming in from Genentech, hiding them in the hotel and then
27:56
realising that the other companies also coming in by
28:01
coincidence also going to the same hotel.
28:03
And, you know, so it was quite intense, tense period of, of
28:09
this face to face. And then it's suddenly turned
28:13
into just hearing the voice of someone and new lawyers coming
28:16
in. And it, it felt much more cold
28:19
in that period. So I think we were very lucky
28:22
that it didn't close down a year earlier that I don't know if
28:26
we'd be able to close. That's something that that I
28:29
wouldn't even thought of. And I think everything you just
28:33
just spoke about there in terms of, you know, the growth and
28:36
then the lessons you learn. But also like the culture
28:38
aspects and how it's become so important for you guys now as
28:42
well as is really interesting. And yeah, you should be super
28:48
proud of like what, what you have now and what you've
28:50
achieved just quickly, like on the future of Nycode.
28:55
What, what are you looking forward to most?
28:57
What's what's most exciting? I think.
29:01
What we're all looking at right now and to avoid any kind of
29:06
doubt internally we usually call that priority number 12.
29:11
And 3 is, is our lead programme ABS Hoover, which is a
29:16
therapeutic cancer vaccine with the with the intention to treat
29:20
all cancers that is caused by the infection of HPV 16.
29:26
So, and that's a problem that that is still not removed with
29:30
the emergence of prophylactic vaccines against the same rise.
29:33
So, so it still persists and, and even head and neck, it's a
29:36
growing problem, growing problem there.
29:39
We've decided to focus our development on first line head
29:43
and neck cancer and have initiated the randomised
29:47
clinical trial called ABILITY, which will read out with the
29:52
first interim results in 2027. And and as I said, I, I don't
29:58
think there's anybody in the company that knows this is
30:01
priority number 12 and three, as as I said and in many ways it
30:06
seems like right now this is the backbone of, of everything we
30:10
need to do. So, so it, it feels emotionally
30:16
then in addition to that we have two very, very exciting other
30:22
growth opportunities, the individualised cancer vaccines,
30:25
which is in many way more close or as close to to our heart as
30:32
as the lead product because this has the ability to treat all
30:35
cancer patients in the future. Technologically, it's a more
30:41
complex and therefore more exciting change than than other
30:45
types of cancer vaccines. But if, if, if we can make it
30:47
work, it has such a huge potential and and fills into the
30:52
vision that you talked about in the beginning already that every
30:55
cancer patient can as the first thing when they get a diagnosis
30:58
that something is, is wrong, they can go and get such a, such
31:02
a personalized cancer vaccine. We're very much looking into,
31:07
into that program progressing also the third sort of focus
31:12
area we have is we have tweaked or honey and the team have
31:16
tweaked our platform. So basically it's the same
31:19
foundational concept of the platform just tweaked, very
31:22
simplified. I, I sometimes say we reversed
31:25
the, the mechanism of, of the vaccine so it can be used in
31:29
autoimmune diseases, which is in many ways the opposite of
31:32
cancer. And there that platform has the
31:37
potential to be used in all autoimmune diseases and allergy
31:40
and organ transplantation rejection etcetera, etcetera.
31:44
So again, a very exciting technological complex challenge
31:50
to, to overcome our lead and the team have come extremely far
31:53
this one here. And that of course also fills us
31:57
with, with, with excitement everyday.
32:00
So in one way we, we are it's a blessed to be so very, very
32:07
strictly focused on three assets, knowing what is the most
32:10
important when we come to work every day.
32:13
And still we think we have three very, very exciting assets,
32:16
which which we're very fortunate to have.
32:17
So, so that's what that's what keeps us going right now.
32:20
It keeps me going right now. It sees say I don't know, I
32:24
don't need chip on please. Yeah, Maybe I was just say it's
32:29
a part of being aligned and having the same vision, but I
32:32
think I can just copy everything you said.
32:37
It's really the lead program that is the most exciting now
32:40
and having it ongoing and seeing patients being enrolled and
32:45
looking forward for the first like real evidence in a
32:48
randomized trial that we can push this forward and help
32:52
patients, all patients with an HPV driven cancer.
32:56
And then on the back of that, we do know we have this
32:59
individualised cancer vaccine that can be deployed to to
33:03
everyone. Also those that don't have an
33:04
HPV driven cancer type and obviously tolerance, if that's
33:10
if that is working, it has a huge, huge potential for so many
33:15
people working with quite devastating autoimmune diseases.
33:19
So, so it's good to have three assets, but I think some of
33:24
these assets, they have such a huge potential and we really
33:27
believe in, in our role in the in supporting and helping those
33:33
patients. Yeah, it's super exciting.
33:36
I'm so glad to have you guys on and and talk about it all to to
33:41
bring us to the last question, which is a question I ask every
33:45
single guest that comes on the the podcast.
33:48
If you could have dinner with any scientist or innovator, past
33:52
or present, who who would it be and why?
33:54
I don't know if you've both got different answer.
33:59
You talked about them, but I need to do you want to go first?
34:02
Yeah. I think that's pretty easy for
34:04
me. I think Sir Ralph Steinman is
34:09
the guy that sort of detected name the the dendritic cells,
34:15
which is the key antigen presenting cells.
34:17
You know, we're an antigen presenting cell focused company.
34:21
He got the Nobel Prize back in 2011.
34:26
Unfortunately, he passed away three days before that was
34:30
announced. So it's it's sort of emotional
34:36
part of that story as well. And also the year where
34:40
immunotherapy as such had a huge breakthrough with the checkpoint
34:43
inhibitors. So he should not have passed
34:47
away that particular year. And I think we're all sort of
34:50
building on his basis. I have met one of the sort of
34:55
his still alive, not necessarily partner, but working on on this
35:00
immunotherapy together, Stephen, Doctor Stephen Rosenberg.
35:04
He's an amazing guy and I'm feeling very blessed for having
35:06
had that, those conversations with him.
35:09
But I am Ralph Steinler, yeah. Amazing you, Michael.
35:16
Yeah, I. Know going different and, and I
35:19
know I tend to divide the the audience with with my kind of
35:23
answer. It's it's slightly
35:23
controversial. I think it's it's better now
35:26
than it was a year ago. I I think the the innovator of
35:30
the dual entrepreneur that that have made a profound impact on
35:35
me is, is, is Elon Musk. And now we have, we have, you
35:41
know, we have put some daylight between the dosh days and now.
35:44
So I dare say it again. There was a time where I didn't
35:46
speak too much about it, but but I really think the, the way he,
35:50
he has a can do mentality and gets things done in the face of
35:55
all the skeptics saying it can't be done is an inspiration.
36:00
And, and I think both reading the, the, the, the very, very
36:05
excellent book wrote by Isaacson on him and other sources have
36:11
been an inspiration on, on how we've shaped the culture in, in
36:14
the company with no layers or as few as possible and and no
36:19
silos. And everybody gets involved in
36:23
the, in the discussions in the decision makings has been, has
36:28
been inspirational. So one of the things that that,
36:34
yeah, I actually would like to understand is how he he manages
36:38
to attract the kind of talents he he attracts because he does
36:40
get some of the best people on board his visions when when he
36:44
starts building them. So, so that's one of the things
36:46
that I'm still curious about. So he would be my pick for for a
36:51
good conversation, probably even dinner.
36:55
Yeah, I love both those answers and I like that we got different
37:00
different aspects as well. So thank you so much for coming
37:03
on guys. It's been a pleasure.
37:04
It was a. Pleasure, Max.
37:05
Thank you very much and. Everyone please like and
37:08
subscribe to the Biohub and thanks again guys.