Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Black widows seek hit men

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Black widows seek hit men · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Serious x M Triumph
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Speaker 1: Channel one thirty two. Dalia Dippolito caught on camera in
0:14
Speaker 1: two thousand and nine ordering a hit on her husband
0:18
Speaker 1: the solicitations did you hear what? David and loved Joying
0:25
Speaker 1: inspired for about a month to kill her estranged husband.
0:28
Speaker 1: When the verdict was read, it was just too much
0:31
Speaker 1: for one of the defendants. At one point, Diana loved
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Speaker 1: joy completely passed out the puppet master that was killing
0:37
Speaker 1: all the strings it. You know what that whole till
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Speaker 1: death do us part thing? You know, I've been thinking
0:46
Speaker 1: about that, but apparently so have a lot of other people,
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Speaker 1: and they're focusing more on the death part. I'm talking
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Speaker 1: about women who kill. But oh no, no, no, they
0:59
Speaker 1: don't want to mess up their French manicure and do
1:01
Speaker 1: it themselves. Uh, no way. They want to outsource, hire
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Speaker 1: somebody to do it. And that's where everything goes sideways.
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Speaker 1: And here in the studio with me, Jackie Howard, Jackie,
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Speaker 1: we know as moms and wives, and you, of course
1:21
Speaker 1: an ex wife. Let me just point that out. I'm
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Speaker 1: still a wife at this moment, you know, you know,
1:27
Speaker 1: just do it yourself. Don't ask somebody else to do it,
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Speaker 1: or it will not happen, and if it does, you'll
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Speaker 1: have to redo it. Okay, she's saying, yes, everybody, but
1:37
Speaker 1: these ladies, these women locked and matrimonial bliss. Again, We're
1:43
Speaker 1: focusing more on the death part of those vows. I,
1:46
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being
1:49
Speaker 1: with us. Whatever happened to d I v O r
1:53
Speaker 1: c E. You know you can get one practically free. Sorry.
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Speaker 1: Brian clay Pool Uh joining me, national criminal defense attorney
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Speaker 1: and trial lawyer for um wife turned would be killer
2:06
Speaker 1: Dahlia de Polito. Dr Brian Russell, lawyer psycho. Oh, Brian,
2:12
Speaker 1: he just had to go out and do us with
2:14
Speaker 1: his degrees. He's not only a lawyer but a psychologist.
2:17
Speaker 1: I guess he told you. Okay, Oh yeah, me too.
2:21
Speaker 1: Host of Investigation Discoveries Fatal Vows. Dr Brian Russell with us,
2:25
Speaker 1: Bobby Maxwell, Crime Stories investigative reporter, and Cheryl McCullum, director
2:30
Speaker 1: of the Cold Case Institute, joining me in l A.
2:33
Speaker 1: Alan Duke here in the studio. Jackie Howard still shaking
2:36
Speaker 1: her head. No, everybody, thank you for being with us.
2:39
Speaker 1: Why did these women kill. Why do they hire hit man? Well,
2:45
Speaker 1: the goal standard, of course. I'm sorry, Brian, but you
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Speaker 1: have the dubious honor of representing Dahlia di Polito. Now,
2:54
Speaker 1: her husband said she tried to kill him before with
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Speaker 1: poisonous Chai tea from Starbucks. Can't prove that. We've heard reports.
3:03
Speaker 1: Brian Claypool has the cup in his dishwasher right now
3:07
Speaker 1: and is refusing to turn it over. But listen to
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Speaker 1: this now, listen to this. This is police sound and video,
3:17
Speaker 1: police confronting Dona de Pilito over her dead husband. Listen,
3:23
Speaker 1: we had a report of the disturbance at your house
3:25
Speaker 1: and there were shots fired. Is your husband, Michael? Okay,
3:29
Speaker 1: I'm sorry to tell you man, he's been killed. He's
3:32
Speaker 1: been killed. Try to find up right now. We need
3:40
Speaker 1: to get We need to get police. I can't look now.
3:45
Speaker 1: We have to do our job. You want for finest killer? Okay?
3:49
Speaker 1: We need you to calm up. I need you to
3:51
Speaker 1: go with these defectives. Okay, does you have enemies? Is
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Speaker 1: there anyone that would want to hurt Okay? Who would
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Speaker 1: want to hurt him? Waitness you said this? Blackmail? Running
4:01
Speaker 1: from the cantless them? I cannot do this right now.
4:07
Speaker 1: I need you. I need you to take to the station.
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Speaker 1: I can't go with these detectives. If you want to
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Speaker 1: help your husband, okay, if you want to help your husband,
4:15
Speaker 1: you need to go with you. If that's not enough.
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Speaker 1: You see Dahlia Dippolito bending over in pain with the
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Speaker 1: anguish at the prospect of being a widow, her husband
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Speaker 1: dead in their home and cops come to tell her.
4:33
Speaker 1: But wait a minute, what about this now and when
4:37
Speaker 1: it's done, you know, culture changing your money. No, that's
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Speaker 1: not like like again, that's the goal. Standard to Bobby Maxwell,
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Speaker 1: Crime Stories investigative reporter. I've got so many women to
4:56
Speaker 1: get to, so many female killers who want their husbands dead.
5:01
Speaker 1: I don't have time, am my spot on serious accept
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Speaker 1: to stuff them all in. But I've got to start
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Speaker 1: with Dahlia Dippolito. I mean, this is the woman on
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Speaker 1: the house arrest. She was only supposed to go to
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Speaker 1: her lawyer's office and church. She got pregnant. You know,
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Speaker 1: I'll get back to you on that, Brian Claypool, But
5:21
Speaker 1: fill me in on the murder plot. Bobby Well, Dohlia
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Speaker 1: met her her husband, Michael um and within six months, Bobby, Bobby,
5:34
Speaker 1: you know how I love you, Bobby Maxwell. Now when
5:37
Speaker 1: you say that Dahlia di Polito met and I'm saying
5:41
Speaker 1: that with air quotes met her husband. What where did
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Speaker 1: they meet? On match dot com? At church in Sunday school?
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Speaker 1: Where did they meet? Bobby? Well, they actually met. She
5:52
Speaker 1: was an escort hooker. Oh, actually not a hunky she's
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Speaker 1: getting paid for it. Okay, Brian Claypool, I respect you
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Speaker 1: as a man for jumping in all right. Yeah, Nancy,
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Speaker 1: they met, Believe they or not. I know this is
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Speaker 1: gonna this is going to knock your your socks off.
6:11
Speaker 1: But they met at a at a Starbucks coffee shot?
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Speaker 1: Is that? Is that where they agreed to meet? Okay?
6:17
Speaker 1: Because that's not what he says, and that's not what
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Speaker 1: the state says, and not that's not what her ticks
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Speaker 1: say to various men where she's agreeing to have sex
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Speaker 1: with them. Brian, you there response. Do you really believe,
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Speaker 1: Brian that women just want to go have sex with
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Speaker 1: different men for fun? Did your wife tell you that? Well?
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Speaker 1: I I think I think what's important for all these
6:45
Speaker 1: stories just to get the facts straight and what leads
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Speaker 1: up to these women allegedly doing this because there's obviously
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Speaker 1: there's something. In my opinion, there's the common thread is
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Speaker 1: there's something wrong in the marriage. And in Dolia's case,
7:03
Speaker 1: you want to focus maybe a lot on Oh, she's
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Speaker 1: allegedly in score she tried to I'm not worried about
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Speaker 1: who she sleeps tell you that. I'm more worried about
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Speaker 1: the murder aspect. Well, but nobody wants to talk about
7:16
Speaker 1: is the domestic abuse and the police failure to investigate that.
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Speaker 1: So those are the elements that we tried to highlight
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Speaker 1: in the two trials that I did. Okay, can we
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Speaker 1: get back to the um correct me, Bobby, did Dahlia
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Speaker 1: Depilato ever tell anyone such as police battered women, mom, neighbor?
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Speaker 1: I mean she lived with her mother on house arrest.
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Speaker 1: Did she tell anybody she had been abused before she
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Speaker 1: hired a hit man? Not that I'm aware of. And
7:48
Speaker 1: let me get back to the hooker, the escort. And
7:52
Speaker 1: again I'm not the church lady. She can sleep with
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Speaker 1: whoever she wants to. I am certainly not pointing the
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Speaker 1: moral finger because I don't want to one back at me.
8:01
Speaker 1: But I'm more concerned about the murder for hire. She
8:07
Speaker 1: can sleep wherever she wants to with whatever man is
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Speaker 1: not enough to pay enough pay her money to sleep with.
8:12
Speaker 1: But it's very clear throughout all of the documentation in
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Speaker 1: court that he did hire her as an escort. I
8:23
Speaker 1: mean that, that's in the court record. But you know what,
8:28
Speaker 1: will pretend that's not true. Let's talk just about the
8:31
Speaker 1: murder for hire, Bobby Maxwell. We just heard the sound
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Speaker 1: of her saying. What did she say? I'm five thousand
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Speaker 1: percent sure I want him dead? Not but five tell
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Speaker 1: me from the beginning, and don't bring up the hooker
8:44
Speaker 1: park because her lawyer is gonna get mad. Go ahead, Well, Michael,
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Speaker 1: after meeting Dahlia, within a matter of months, was ready
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Speaker 1: to have him removed from her life, allegedly, and UM,
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Speaker 1: so she hired a hitman who turned to be an
9:02
Speaker 1: undercover detective and someone that knew Michael Dippolito. UM, and
9:08
Speaker 1: that's when they did a second conversation and she was
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Speaker 1: caught on tape saying five thousand percent sure she wanted
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Speaker 1: him dead. And UM actually went through one trial, and
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Speaker 1: then another one after an appeal, hung jury, and then
9:23
Speaker 1: a third trial and UH finally were able to hand
9:26
Speaker 1: a conviction down on Dahlia. Well, now the first one.
9:30
Speaker 1: The jury was out for about um less than less
9:34
Speaker 1: than an hour or less than two hours, and came
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Speaker 1: back with a guilty that was reversed on appeal because
9:42
Speaker 1: the defense lawyers asked and were denied the right to
9:46
Speaker 1: ask the jurars individually if they had heard about the
9:49
Speaker 1: case or seen any pre trial publicity. That's what we
9:53
Speaker 1: call vodre, which coincidentally French to speak the truth. That's
9:57
Speaker 1: what that means when you question the ur ours to
10:00
Speaker 1: find out who you're putting in the jury box. Um,
10:05
Speaker 1: Brian Claypool, let me tell you a funny story. As
10:08
Speaker 1: my daughter says, Mom, you're off topic. I was getting
10:11
Speaker 1: ready to strike at jury Brian and the defense attorney
10:15
Speaker 1: all bravado. As some people say, full of piss and vinegar.
10:19
Speaker 1: I would never say that, because we don't say piss
10:21
Speaker 1: in our house. But um, he stands up in front
10:25
Speaker 1: of the whole Jeery Pool, in front of my judge,
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Speaker 1: who was eighty four years old at the time, and says,
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Speaker 1: I'll take anybody, any gerra will find my guy not guilty.
10:37
Speaker 1: I'll take the first twelve you're afraid to do that,
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Speaker 1: Miss Grace, and everything in me scream, don't give in,
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Speaker 1: don't do this. But I went bring it on like
10:48
Speaker 1: the fool that I was, and put the twelve in
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Speaker 1: the box. Okay, that's a bad idea. Now, luckily I
10:56
Speaker 1: did manage to get a conviction through no fault of
10:59
Speaker 1: my own. Okay, because that should have blown blew it
11:03
Speaker 1: right there, taken his bait. But my point is, for dire,
11:07
Speaker 1: I think once you strike the jury, Brian, that's your
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Speaker 1: verdict right there. I've always thought it's all injury selection. Brian. Well,
11:15
Speaker 1: that's a great point. See jury selection is oftentimes the
11:19
Speaker 1: most important part of the trial, and a lot of
11:23
Speaker 1: trial lawyers, especially in the criminal forum, they don't they
11:27
Speaker 1: don't spend the required time and and research and and
11:34
Speaker 1: and higher consultants and look at the psychological aspect of
11:39
Speaker 1: selecting jurors. I mean, to our credit, Nancy, I know
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Speaker 1: you you have a lot of disdain towards Dahlia. But
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Speaker 1: the second trial that that you just mentioned, I mean,
11:49
Speaker 1: we did a fantastic job in that case. I have
11:53
Speaker 1: to say, you really did. I mean, but but for
11:55
Speaker 1: getting back to your point, was it was primarily jury
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Speaker 1: selection I mean, we were so so vigilant, you know,
12:03
Speaker 1: and and and looking at body. It's not only just
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Speaker 1: what jurors say, but their body. Lane. It's a vibe
12:10
Speaker 1: and it's a vine. You got to really get in there.
12:14
Speaker 1: And I never used a your consultant because I wanted
12:17
Speaker 1: to get that vibe myself, because your jury consultants not
12:20
Speaker 1: trying your case. You are. And if you get the
12:23
Speaker 1: idea the person doesn't like the stake, or the person
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Speaker 1: doesn't like you or whatever, you don't want them all
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Speaker 1: the jury, Nancy. And another thing, women, women are the
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Speaker 1: best u people to select jurors. I never ever pick
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Speaker 1: a jury without a female attorney in my office or
12:42
Speaker 1: a female legal assistant. I mean, and I don't I'm
12:46
Speaker 1: not doing this's a stroke because you know, I've always
12:48
Speaker 1: had a had a crush on you know. I think
12:50
Speaker 1: it's something intuitive and scientists would probably argue with me,
12:54
Speaker 1: but you I think women are more just attune to
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Speaker 1: feelings and emotions nonverbal cues. I really do believe that,
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Speaker 1: no offense, I'm not saying we're smarter at which we are,
13:06
Speaker 1: but I do think stop saying that, Jackie. I do
13:11
Speaker 1: think that they pick up those cues, you know. But
13:14
Speaker 1: long story short. The first trial, she was found guilty
13:17
Speaker 1: in a heartbeat. Yeah, yeah, it was reversed because, um,
13:25
Speaker 1: the judge did not ask each individual juror. He asked
13:29
Speaker 1: a blanket question, who's heard of this case before? You know?
13:32
Speaker 1: And a few people raise their hands. The the appellate
13:35
Speaker 1: court said he should have asked each one individually that question. Okay,
13:38
Speaker 1: so it got reverse. Goes back mistrial, six member jury
13:42
Speaker 1: splits it three to three. All right, goes back to trial.
13:46
Speaker 1: The third time they take less than three hours to
13:49
Speaker 1: convict her. So the third time was the charm. But
13:53
Speaker 1: in this case, Dr Brian Russell, lawyer, psychologist and host
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Speaker 1: of Investigation just Every's hit show, Fatal vows Dr Briant Um,
14:05
Speaker 1: they hadn't been married very long. I still stand by
14:08
Speaker 1: the assertation they met when she was an escort. But fine,
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Speaker 1: they met in Sunday school. Say whatever you want, Claypool.
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Speaker 1: So they're married about six months and she starts move
14:18
Speaker 1: trying to move his condo into her name and digging
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Speaker 1: into all of his checking accounts and banking accounts, and
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Speaker 1: almost immediately, let's just say, the bloom was not off
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Speaker 1: the rose. According to the States. She starts planning his
14:34
Speaker 1: murder with a cup of chai. T what about it, Brian.
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Speaker 1: So today's topic is right up my alley, because Fatal
14:43
Speaker 1: Vows is about spouses who tried to murder their spouses
14:47
Speaker 1: and uh and succeed if they made it onto fatal Vows.
14:51
Speaker 1: And one of the things that a lot of people
14:53
Speaker 1: find interesting is that we have so many female perpetrators
14:59
Speaker 1: on this show because is I think people sort of
15:02
Speaker 1: intuitively understand that in general when we're talking about murder,
15:07
Speaker 1: men seem to have the greater propensity among the two genders,
15:11
Speaker 1: uh for violence in general, including murder. But when you
15:15
Speaker 1: look at our fatal Vows cases, they break down about
15:19
Speaker 1: equally with female and male perpetrators. And then if you
15:23
Speaker 1: look at the reasons, you know, what are the top
15:27
Speaker 1: two or three reasons why people end up on fatal Vows.
15:30
Speaker 1: Number one is infidelity by far. Number two is financial
15:36
Speaker 1: issues money, The third one probably is kids issues over
15:43
Speaker 1: custody of children. And and you notice that abuse, being
15:49
Speaker 1: a victim of abuse and and and trying to lash
15:52
Speaker 1: back out at the abuser is not among those three. Uh.
15:56
Speaker 1: And so so that's uh. Those are hopefully symmetrics to
16:00
Speaker 1: facts that. Now, when you talk about this first attempt
16:03
Speaker 1: of allegedly to murder UH Dahlia's husband with the poisoning,
16:08
Speaker 1: I realized you were on a first name basis. Dr
16:12
Speaker 1: Brian Russell. Please don't get too close to this woman. Well, hey,
16:18
Speaker 1: she tried to murder. She she hired to hit man
16:21
Speaker 1: to kill her husband. She also, according to him, tried
16:24
Speaker 1: to poison him with chi t she's a hooker to boot.
16:28
Speaker 1: Bryan Claypool denies that, and somehow, on house arrest, living
16:32
Speaker 1: alone with her mother, she got pregnant. I guess the
16:35
Speaker 1: guys hiding in a can of chicken soup. I don't
16:37
Speaker 1: know how that happened. But Brian, please don't get too
16:40
Speaker 1: close to her. Now, what were you saying the poisoning.
16:43
Speaker 1: One of the things that we do note is is
16:46
Speaker 1: UH men and women seem to take different different approaches
16:51
Speaker 1: to this, and and the more up close and personal,
16:56
Speaker 1: more violent methodologies seemed to be more associated with the
17:01
Speaker 1: male perpetrators and the hiring somebody else, getting somebody else
17:06
Speaker 1: to do it, do using poison. Things like that that
17:10
Speaker 1: that are sort of more arms length seemed to be
17:13
Speaker 1: more the methods of choice for the women. You would
17:17
Speaker 1: not believe. We've had episodes of fatal vows where women
17:20
Speaker 1: have even hired or persuaded or pimped out their own
17:25
Speaker 1: children in order to solicit somebody else to murder their spouses.
17:30
Speaker 1: It's just, uh, it's just morbidly disgustingly fascinating. And and
17:35
Speaker 1: I'll I'll wrap up but with this, Uh, because I'm
17:39
Speaker 1: as you know, I'm always trying to extract lessons for
17:41
Speaker 1: our listeners. Uh. A few months is not in any
17:46
Speaker 1: universe enough time to get to know somebody, even if
17:51
Speaker 1: they don't have anything like a propensity to murder you. Uh,
17:54
Speaker 1: just just in terms of you having a decent shot
17:57
Speaker 1: at a marriage that doesn't end in h does asters divorce,
18:01
Speaker 1: A few months is nowhere close to enough time to
18:05
Speaker 1: spend getting to know somebody. Well, I gotta tell you something,
18:08
Speaker 1: Dr Brian Russell. I look back on other men that
18:11
Speaker 1: I dated, no offense. Guys, you're all wonderful, but you
18:15
Speaker 1: know what they taught me how great my husband is.
18:19
Speaker 1: A lot of times I threatened to throw all his
18:22
Speaker 1: clothes in the front yard and burned them, or slid
18:24
Speaker 1: his tires, or just something along that alley. But the
18:27
Speaker 1: truth is it takes you've got to think it through.
18:33
Speaker 1: You're so right, Dr Brian. It takes time. And you
18:40
Speaker 1: know there's not a lot of guys out there, Bobby Jackie,
18:43
Speaker 1: I think you'll agree with me that will be there
18:46
Speaker 1: for you. I don't mean when you're young and cute
18:49
Speaker 1: and your twenty one and you can slide into a
18:51
Speaker 1: side six and oh everything is so awful, awesome and
18:54
Speaker 1: sparkly and shiny. You. I mean when you have children,
18:58
Speaker 1: and when people get sick, and whether there's a death
19:01
Speaker 1: in your family or the old gray mare she ain't
19:05
Speaker 1: what she used to be. That's when you find out
19:08
Speaker 1: what real love is. That's what real love is. And
19:13
Speaker 1: that's hard to take in when you're twenty or twenty
19:15
Speaker 1: five or even thirty, but you learn that and you
19:19
Speaker 1: can't learn anything like that in just six months. Alan Duke, okay, Alan,
19:25
Speaker 1: I hope you're listening. I want to pause and thank
19:29
Speaker 1: our partner who is making today's serious XM program possible.
19:34
Speaker 1: But before we do, I just want to hear Brian
19:37
Speaker 1: Claypol's client Dollia di Polito, just one more time, just
19:43
Speaker 1: for old Time's sake, roll it alan here, anything to
19:49
Speaker 1: do anything, You're going to do anything, anything you didn't
19:55
Speaker 1: do anything. You're going to jail today. They're gonna come
20:02
Speaker 1: with your hand of you to take you to the
20:05
Speaker 1: Pommi's County Jail. Vote you for solicitation of first degree
20:09
Speaker 1: murder on your own and now to thank our partner,
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Speaker 1: know it doesn't end with Dahlia Dippolito. There's a rash
21:32
Speaker 1: of women who, instead of just seeking divorce for Pete's sake,
21:36
Speaker 1: as miserable as that is, decide to hire hit men
21:41
Speaker 1: to kill their husbands. And of course, Cheryl McCollum, you're
21:44
Speaker 1: the expert, you're the director of the Coal Case Institute.
21:47
Speaker 1: I don't know why they just don't do it themselves
21:50
Speaker 1: or just get a divorce, you know, Cheryl, you can
21:52
Speaker 1: practically get a divorce for freethers, even do it yourself.
21:56
Speaker 1: D I y D do it yourself divorces, Cheryl. It
21:59
Speaker 1: would save a whole lot of time and pain for
22:02
Speaker 1: everybody if they would just get divorced, or walk out,
22:06
Speaker 1: or even stage their own death. They don't have to
22:08
Speaker 1: kill anybody to get rid of a man. Can we
22:11
Speaker 1: just leave death as an option in any form out
22:15
Speaker 1: of this scenario, Cheryl, I think I better call your
22:17
Speaker 1: husband when we finish this. But listen to this. I
22:19
Speaker 1: want you to hear about somebody other than Dahlia di
22:22
Speaker 1: Polito the hooker, Okay, Brian whatever, She's not a hooker
22:27
Speaker 1: that it's five thousand percent sure she wants her husband dad.
22:31
Speaker 1: I want to talk about Diana love Joy, who, when
22:36
Speaker 1: confronted in court with her nasty deed, passes out of innocence.
22:41
Speaker 1: Listen to me. The jury in the evolved entitled cause
22:44
Speaker 1: find the defendant, Diana Gene love Joy guilty of the
22:47
Speaker 1: crime of conspiracy to commit murder in violation of Piano
22:51
Speaker 1: pot Section oneing to par a. We the jury in
22:54
Speaker 1: the above and cause the defendant. There she is. I
23:00
Speaker 1: don't know if you could hear that thump, but that
23:03
Speaker 1: was Diana love Joy's hid hitting the chair at the announcement.
23:09
Speaker 1: You're guilty, Bobby Maxwell. Crime Stories investigative reporter, tell me
23:14
Speaker 1: what happened? How did she hook up with her co
23:17
Speaker 1: conspirator to murder uh her ex husband? Well, you know
23:23
Speaker 1: they were going through her and her husband were going
23:25
Speaker 1: through a very very contentious divorce and especially a custody battle,
23:30
Speaker 1: and um it took over two years of this battle,
23:34
Speaker 1: and when it was coming to the very end of
23:38
Speaker 1: the uh the case, she was being faced with having
23:42
Speaker 1: to give up of custody of her young son and
23:47
Speaker 1: to pay her husband and dollars. I guess that was
23:50
Speaker 1: a little bit too much. That's when she reached out
23:53
Speaker 1: to her firearms instructor. She took classes with Weldon McDavid
23:59
Speaker 1: and he's been a marine. He of course knows about firearms,
24:03
Speaker 1: and um plotted to take out her husband. So Sheryl McCollum,
24:08
Speaker 1: there you go. The this guy trying to get custody
24:12
Speaker 1: of the children and sticking it to his wife for
24:16
Speaker 1: a hundred and twenty grand had no idea. His wife
24:20
Speaker 1: with was like, okay, you know what, I'm not giving
24:23
Speaker 1: you the kids or the money. All right, you're right, Nancy.
24:29
Speaker 1: Here's the thing that amazes me though, when they go
24:31
Speaker 1: to find these quote hit men, and they go to
24:35
Speaker 1: people that have a legitimate job. So she's not a criminal,
24:39
Speaker 1: her instructor is not a criminal. But she thinks, hey,
24:42
Speaker 1: this guy knows how to shoot, so I'll hire him
24:45
Speaker 1: to murder someone. That's a great plan, right there. So
24:53
Speaker 1: murder someone that actually knows my husband. That that's gonna work,
24:57
Speaker 1: you know, Cheryl. People think that murder is like it
25:00
Speaker 1: is on TV or in movies. It's not. I mean,
25:04
Speaker 1: you and I know from going to actual homicide scenes
25:07
Speaker 1: that it. First of all, it stinks, really unless you're
25:11
Speaker 1: used to it. The first time you smell dead human
25:14
Speaker 1: body that's been there a day or two throw up.
25:17
Speaker 1: I've seen veteran cops just start vomiting uncontrollably just at
25:21
Speaker 1: the smell. You go in. Blood is sticky, there's hair
25:26
Speaker 1: stuck in it, It's everywhere. There's just something dank and
25:33
Speaker 1: a natural and wrong when you go onto a murder scene.
25:38
Speaker 1: I mean, and once you've been in one, you know
25:41
Speaker 1: it immediately when you smell that smell, when you get
25:45
Speaker 1: that feeling that somebody has been killed. I can remember
25:50
Speaker 1: you and I were I would say, a football filled
25:54
Speaker 1: away from the crime scene, and we knew before we
25:57
Speaker 1: even got there what we had the wait a minute,
26:00
Speaker 1: which one was that I don't I can't ever name
26:03
Speaker 1: the names. Do you always want me to recall names?
26:05
Speaker 1: When we were in the cut and we were literally
26:08
Speaker 1: a football field away near mechanics fille, and you and
26:11
Speaker 1: I both knew exactly this person is Okay, what did
26:15
Speaker 1: we say. I'm trying to remember it. I can't remember which.
26:19
Speaker 1: You turned to me and you said, oh yeah, this this,
26:24
Speaker 1: this could this could be the one that's been here
26:26
Speaker 1: a minute. In other words, this person had already decomposed
26:30
Speaker 1: to the point where you could smell them that far away.
26:33
Speaker 1: We were at least the football feeling away from the
26:36
Speaker 1: blue lights. So again, okay, he knew what was happening before,
26:42
Speaker 1: and I was complete Novice Cheryl. I mean, you know,
26:46
Speaker 1: when I got into criminal law, I had to look
26:48
Speaker 1: up the definition of plane iff indefendant. I didn't know
26:51
Speaker 1: anything about a dead body. I only knew how to
26:54
Speaker 1: quote Shakespeare for Pete's sake. And I mean, if I
26:59
Speaker 1: know the president, it's of a dead body than anybody would.
27:02
Speaker 1: What I'm saying is when people plan these things. Dr
27:05
Speaker 1: Brian Russell. Dr Brian Russell, lawyer, psychologist, host of investigation Discoveries,
27:11
Speaker 1: hit show Fatal Fatal vows you think it's going to
27:15
Speaker 1: be insanitized, lab conditions, airbrushed murder. So to say, it's
27:20
Speaker 1: not like that. Dr Brian, It's not like that. And
27:24
Speaker 1: one of the big questions that we get is how
27:28
Speaker 1: can somebody go from standing there at the altar, standing
27:32
Speaker 1: there in front of whoever is officiating, and professing their
27:36
Speaker 1: love for somebody and and you know, supposedly most of
27:40
Speaker 1: the time feeling love at that moment, two seeing their
27:46
Speaker 1: spouse as such an inhuman object that they could do
27:51
Speaker 1: something like that or have something like that done to
27:54
Speaker 1: them and not feel, you know, just overwhelming guilt and
28:00
Speaker 1: shame and remorse about it. And I think, uh, I
28:03
Speaker 1: think what it speaks to is the critical importance of
28:09
Speaker 1: what you said earlier about really really getting to know somebody,
28:14
Speaker 1: Because when somebody has that in them, they've got that
28:19
Speaker 1: cold calculating capacity. Uh, it will show itself another way
28:25
Speaker 1: that the murder that they commit is never the first
28:30
Speaker 1: time that trait came out. But you have to give
28:34
Speaker 1: yourself enough time and enough situations with the person to
28:38
Speaker 1: be able to see it. Another thing, and just as
28:40
Speaker 1: I said earlier, there are many people who would not
28:44
Speaker 1: have ended up on fatal vows had they given themselves
28:46
Speaker 1: enough time to get to know somebody. Another thing is
28:49
Speaker 1: there are many people who who wouldn't have ended up
28:52
Speaker 1: on fatal vows had they waited to be a little
28:56
Speaker 1: bit older so they had a little bit more life
28:58
Speaker 1: experience under their belt before they pick somebody. The other
29:01
Speaker 1: big question that people ask me is what you asked
29:04
Speaker 1: a few minutes ago. Why don't they just get divorced?
29:08
Speaker 1: And the reason why they don't is because when they
29:12
Speaker 1: think about the two options, well, I could commit murder
29:15
Speaker 1: or I could get divorced. If they get divorced, they
29:18
Speaker 1: might have to share custody, they might have to give
29:21
Speaker 1: up some money. It's always about this right there. Okay,
29:26
Speaker 1: Dr Brian Russell, You're totally up under my skin right
29:29
Speaker 1: now because the thought of giving away John, David and
29:36
Speaker 1: Lucy fifty percent of the time. I'll just stay married,
29:43
Speaker 1: you know what. Fine, Yes, yes, I'll just stay married
29:48
Speaker 1: rather than give up fifty percent of the time with
29:52
Speaker 1: the children. I mean, Brian Claypool. Now, true, Brian Russell
29:59
Speaker 1: has out and done you anyway with degrees because you
30:02
Speaker 1: know I have my l M. Not to rub it in, Brian,
30:05
Speaker 1: but we both have and one degree more than you.
30:08
Speaker 1: Don't feel don't feel inferior, Brian. Okay, Please I stroke
30:15
Speaker 1: you a few minutes ago. Women are taking a jury
30:21
Speaker 1: and then I just turned around and bit the hand
30:23
Speaker 1: that stroked me. But Brian guys. Brian Claypool is with us.
30:28
Speaker 1: He's a national criminal defense attorney and really shot to
30:31
Speaker 1: fame struggling with the case of Dahlia to Polito and
30:36
Speaker 1: managed to get a mistrial in the second case. So,
30:39
Speaker 1: Brian Claypole, you're hearing what Brian Russell. Dr Russell fatal
30:43
Speaker 1: vows and Sheryl McCollum was saying. Do you think that
30:47
Speaker 1: child custody is the main issue? Because you know what,
30:52
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna fight over the bank account or the
30:54
Speaker 1: pots and the pans. You can have the picture frames
30:58
Speaker 1: their rooms to go sofa take it. I'd be mad
31:02
Speaker 1: if you didn't. But when it comes down to those children,
31:05
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, uh, you got a tiger by the tail.
31:08
Speaker 1: You can't hold on and you can't let go and
31:11
Speaker 1: she I think I think what Brian Russell is saying.
31:13
Speaker 1: I partially agree with what he's saying about the child
31:16
Speaker 1: custody issue. But here's what I want to say about
31:19
Speaker 1: this issue of of women trying to have their husbands killed.
31:22
Speaker 1: I lived and breathed one of the most famous cases
31:25
Speaker 1: for what four or five years. I think the point
31:27
Speaker 1: we're missing is that most of it, I actually choked
31:31
Speaker 1: on it. But most of these women who try to
31:34
Speaker 1: have their husbands killed when they get married are not
31:37
Speaker 1: prewired to have their husbands killed. They don't they're not
31:40
Speaker 1: on the they're not saying till death do us part,
31:42
Speaker 1: and she whiz, I've already had a plan of contriving
31:45
Speaker 1: in my head to have my husband killed. It's kind
31:47
Speaker 1: of right till death do us part. But here here's
31:51
Speaker 1: my point. I think in a lot of these cases
31:54
Speaker 1: there's an element of desperation that permeates the woman's body.
31:58
Speaker 1: So something is happening in that marriage and not condoning
32:02
Speaker 1: what they're doing, but something's happening that triggering them to
32:07
Speaker 1: even have a thought of having their husband knocked off
32:10
Speaker 1: in Dahlia's case, and Brian Russell might say that well
32:13
Speaker 1: on his show, Uh, domestic abuse is not a big factor.
32:18
Speaker 1: Well that that makes sense because in my case and
32:21
Speaker 1: dealing with Dahlia, who who who was domestically abused? That's
32:25
Speaker 1: that's kind of a silent thing women don't want to
32:28
Speaker 1: often come for. Don't me understand something? Did you ever
32:33
Speaker 1: did she ever file a police report on ab She
32:36
Speaker 1: reported it to her her former lover, lover Mohammed. And
32:41
Speaker 1: then when she did call, didn't she ask him to
32:44
Speaker 1: take part in the murder? No? No, but but b Nancy,
32:46
Speaker 1: here's an important fact that that people are missing is
32:49
Speaker 1: that first, the first phone call made by the confidential
32:55
Speaker 1: informant to the police station was to report a mastic abuse.
33:00
Speaker 1: So Dahlia had reached out to him, and then he
33:04
Speaker 1: did report that to the police department. The only point
33:07
Speaker 1: was trying to make is all right, why white white Brian,
33:12
Speaker 1: please please? I know you're slippery, is an eel, but
33:16
Speaker 1: let me ask again. You say that Dahlia di Polito,
33:20
Speaker 1: who has been convicted of hiring a hitman to murder
33:25
Speaker 1: her husband by two juries, you're telling me she never
33:30
Speaker 1: called police, Better Women's Center, told her mother relatives nothing.
33:34
Speaker 1: She told a person named Mohammed that coincidentally she solicited
33:40
Speaker 1: in the murder scheme. That's a yes, no, that's that's true, right,
33:46
Speaker 1: But that's not that's not uncommon with women who are
33:50
Speaker 1: being being abused by their husbands. That's not fine. I
33:53
Speaker 1: worked as a volunteer and the Battered Women's Center. Husband's
33:58
Speaker 1: abusing me. I work, Brian Brian. I represented battered women
34:04
Speaker 1: and worked as a volunteer for nine years at the
34:08
Speaker 1: Battered Women Center, very familiar with batter women and the
34:13
Speaker 1: battered women syndrome. The batter women syndrome, Cheryl, you and
34:17
Speaker 1: I have dealt with many many times in court. When
34:20
Speaker 1: a woman kills after an extended period of time being abused,
34:26
Speaker 1: it is not a well thought out plan such as
34:29
Speaker 1: poisoning or hiring a hitman. It is an instinct that
34:32
Speaker 1: comes akin to self defense. So that is by far
34:39
Speaker 1: not the defense in Dahlia to Polito, and was not
34:43
Speaker 1: the defense at trial at all. Listen, Dahlia was a
34:48
Speaker 1: criminal before she tried to hire a hit man. She's
34:51
Speaker 1: a criminal now. And Nasy, you were talking about Shakespeare
34:55
Speaker 1: a minute ago. One of my favorite quotes is hell
34:58
Speaker 1: is empty, and all the devil or here. And the
35:01
Speaker 1: bottom line is when it comes to this type of crime,
35:04
Speaker 1: and you're gonna go out and seek somebody else to
35:07
Speaker 1: do the devil's word that you don't have the backbone
35:10
Speaker 1: to do yourself, which is killed him when he is
35:13
Speaker 1: beating you, which is not the case here again, you
35:16
Speaker 1: go out and hire somebody to do it for you.
35:19
Speaker 1: And like I tell people all the time, the devil
35:21
Speaker 1: is at the dinner table. Well, Nancy, Nancy, I think
35:27
Speaker 1: I can I just make one more point about are
35:29
Speaker 1: you gonna tell me again? No? No, but I but
35:35
Speaker 1: I promise, you'll promise you. I'll take a shower after
35:38
Speaker 1: we do this. Okay, all right? But I find it
35:43
Speaker 1: interesting that that when we're talking about women who are
35:47
Speaker 1: who are allegedly hiring somebody else to commit the murder
35:51
Speaker 1: of their husband, I think that tells me one important fact,
35:55
Speaker 1: which is maybe they aren't sure it that really is
36:01
Speaker 1: the recourse they want to take, because if they were
36:03
Speaker 1: so sure, why wouldn't they do it themselves? And that's
36:07
Speaker 1: that's really kind of what the subplot was in both
36:10
Speaker 1: of the trials that I did with Dahlia. And maybe
36:13
Speaker 1: Brian could speak to this issue too. I don't know
36:15
Speaker 1: if he agrees with this or not, but but these
36:19
Speaker 1: women are are thinking about options that they have to
36:22
Speaker 1: extricate from the marriage. You mentioned one Nancy being divorced.
36:27
Speaker 1: But I think it's a process they're going through and
36:30
Speaker 1: and and they're they're in my opinion, they're not certain
36:34
Speaker 1: that they're killing is really the I'll tell you what
36:38
Speaker 1: she sounded certain on that recorded conversation those mini mini
36:43
Speaker 1: recorded conversations where she was hiring a hit man. Those
36:48
Speaker 1: were played at try trying to convince herself. Why wouldn't okay, Okay,
36:58
Speaker 1: you know what I want to go to, Diane. They
37:03
Speaker 1: hire a hit man so that they have an alibi,
37:06
Speaker 1: so they're nowhere near it, so they didn't commit the
37:08
Speaker 1: murder themselves, so they don't go to print. You're welcome,
37:13
Speaker 1: And that's not all. And I'm talking about Diana Lovejoy,
37:16
Speaker 1: the one that passed out in court when they called
37:19
Speaker 1: out that she was guilty. The jury and found her guilty.
37:21
Speaker 1: She looked around like what did they what me? And
37:24
Speaker 1: then immediately passed out. But what happened before that, Bobby
37:29
Speaker 1: Maxwell Crime Stories investigative reporter, correct me if I'm wrong,
37:32
Speaker 1: is that the husband uh Movel Hill gets a call
37:36
Speaker 1: around eleven o'clock at night by someone claiming their private
37:42
Speaker 1: investigator that had incriminating evidence on the husband Mulva Hill,
37:49
Speaker 1: to use against him in a custody battle, and that
37:52
Speaker 1: if he wanted that information um that he could go
37:57
Speaker 1: to this dirt road to the end of it, and
38:01
Speaker 1: the evidence there that he could use in his custody
38:05
Speaker 1: battle would be take to a power poll. So movea hill,
38:09
Speaker 1: gets a friend, They go out there, they hear something,
38:13
Speaker 1: turn around and look in the bushes. They notice movement
38:17
Speaker 1: as a person lying prone with a rifle pointed at them,
38:22
Speaker 1: and shots begin to ring out. All right, so that's
38:26
Speaker 1: what happened in that case. Before I go to Julia Murfeld,
38:32
Speaker 1: a young mom of just about years old, her husband
38:36
Speaker 1: calls her godly, saintly, a wonderful woman. Yeah, she planned
38:41
Speaker 1: to have him killed. I want to pause and thank
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40:32
Speaker 1: Julia Murfield is called wonderful and godly, says her husband,
40:39
Speaker 1: the same husband she tried to have murdered for the
40:44
Speaker 1: very first time. The intended murder victim, Jake Murfeld, just
40:49
Speaker 1: twenty seven years old, spoke out and he says, I
40:53
Speaker 1: know my wife as a wonderful person. She is a
40:57
Speaker 1: godly woman. The two had two little children, ages just
41:01
Speaker 1: four in two and he says, quote, she's been nothing
41:06
Speaker 1: but a great mother to them. Okay, Um, I don't
41:13
Speaker 1: quite understand where he's coming from. Tell me, Bobby Maxwell,
41:18
Speaker 1: Crime Stories contributing investigative reporter, what happened. Well, they were
41:26
Speaker 1: having a tough time at their marriage and um, they've
41:30
Speaker 1: been fighting. And Murfield actually said that she was thinking
41:34
Speaker 1: about having him killed for a while because if he
41:38
Speaker 1: was dead, she wouldn't have to worry about the family's
41:40
Speaker 1: judgment or breaking his heart. That's how good of a person.
41:44
Speaker 1: Listen to this, she's shaking his hand the hit man
41:55
Speaker 1: business to discross. She's laughing, Bobby Matt, So, I just
42:00
Speaker 1: wanted you to hear her. And she's caught on tape,
42:03
Speaker 1: of course, and she's in a detectives vehicle parked outside
42:08
Speaker 1: a store at Freeport Township, and she lays out why
42:13
Speaker 1: she wants her husband dad, and she said very clearly
42:17
Speaker 1: it was to get her husband's four hundred thousand dollar
42:20
Speaker 1: life insurance policy. Do I have that right, Bobby Maxwell, Yes,
42:24
Speaker 1: you do. And fifty thousand of that would go to
42:27
Speaker 1: the hitman who was going to do it. WHOA, that's
42:31
Speaker 1: a that's an easy paycheck. Fifty grand for one bullet.
42:34
Speaker 1: On the video released by the County Prosecutor's office, she
42:39
Speaker 1: says she wants her husband kill because, quote as Bobby
42:42
Speaker 1: Maxwell just told us, it was easier than divorcing him.
42:45
Speaker 1: I didn't have to worry about the judgment of my family.
42:48
Speaker 1: I didn't have to worry about breaking his heart. All
42:50
Speaker 1: that stuff Like this is like how I gotta clean getaway.
42:55
Speaker 1: Dr Brian Russell, host of Investigation Discoveries fatal vows, this
43:00
Speaker 1: woman is so young and fresh and just cute. She
43:05
Speaker 1: looks like any woman I see walking along the aisles
43:09
Speaker 1: at Target or Walmart or Costco with her children in
43:12
Speaker 1: the buggy. How does it go so sideways? Well, this
43:16
Speaker 1: is an excellent illustration of what I was saying earlier
43:18
Speaker 1: about how there's always this sociopathic undercurrent of entitlement to
43:24
Speaker 1: have my cake and eat it too. If I get divorced,
43:27
Speaker 1: then I'll have to make some sacrifices. I'll have to
43:29
Speaker 1: share custody, I'll have to split the money. But if
43:33
Speaker 1: I go this route, then I can have everything that
43:36
Speaker 1: can be relieved of my spouse that that I'm no
43:40
Speaker 1: longer happy with, and I can have everything that I
43:43
Speaker 1: want in response, Uh, quickly, also to to what Brian
43:47
Speaker 1: Claypool said, Uh, while we have not had a lot
43:50
Speaker 1: of episodes of Fatal Vows where the murder has boiled
43:54
Speaker 1: down to abuse, we've had a number of episodes where
43:57
Speaker 1: women have told other guys they were being abused to
44:01
Speaker 1: get the guys to participate in the murders of the husbands,
44:05
Speaker 1: and and so. Uh and and this phenomenon that Brian
44:09
Speaker 1: Claypool mentioned about, well, I think sometimes they hire men
44:13
Speaker 1: because they're trying to convince themselves they want to do it.
44:16
Speaker 1: That's something I have never seen. I have seen many
44:20
Speaker 1: times women hire men so that they will be at
44:23
Speaker 1: arms length from the transaction, and if the thing goes bad,
44:27
Speaker 1: they'll be able to say, well, I didn't really think
44:30
Speaker 1: they were really gonna do it. I didn't mean for
44:33
Speaker 1: a murder to happen. I just talked about it with
44:35
Speaker 1: the person. They decided on their own to go off
44:37
Speaker 1: and do it because they wanted me or or something
44:40
Speaker 1: like that. I've seen that in a number of Fatal
44:42
Speaker 1: vas episodes where I'm looking at this woman and I
44:45
Speaker 1: know you can't judge a book by their cover. But
44:48
Speaker 1: Brian Claypool, this woman. And I know you're defending Dahlia,
44:52
Speaker 1: and I'm not gonna go back into that. I'm not
44:54
Speaker 1: kidding around right now. I'm serious. This woman here, this
44:58
Speaker 1: Julia Charlene Murfield, as a young girl. In my mind,
45:04
Speaker 1: she's just twenty one years old. She's got these two children,
45:08
Speaker 1: she's been the perfect mom, she's you know, always kept
45:13
Speaker 1: it in the middle of the road. And then out
45:15
Speaker 1: of the blue, she promises somebody fifty grand to kill
45:20
Speaker 1: her husband. But you know, Brian, as much as part
45:25
Speaker 1: of me feels bad for her, lady, justice is blind.
45:30
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter that she's this young soccer mom with
45:34
Speaker 1: a four year old and a two year old. We're
45:36
Speaker 1: talking about murder, Brian. Murder. Yeah, Nancy, real quick. I
45:42
Speaker 1: think with Julia's case, um, and with other women who
45:46
Speaker 1: are are very attractive, And I don't mean to bring
45:48
Speaker 1: that looks up again, but I think it's important. I
45:51
Speaker 1: think some of these younger women who are very beautiful,
45:55
Speaker 1: who have their whole lives ahead of them, and who
45:58
Speaker 1: have a perception in society, especially with men, men looking
46:02
Speaker 1: at them like and I'll be honest with you, when
46:05
Speaker 1: I look, when I look at a beautiful woman, like
46:08
Speaker 1: Julia right, and I see her, I have trouble, even
46:13
Speaker 1: though you might have a mountain of evidence that support
46:17
Speaker 1: that she tried to have her husband killed, I as
46:20
Speaker 1: a man, have some degree of difficulty believing that a
46:25
Speaker 1: beautiful young woman like that is capable of doing that.
46:29
Speaker 1: And I think some of these hold it right there, Ryan,
46:33
Speaker 1: because Cheryl McCollum, it's true. What Claypool is saying is true,
46:39
Speaker 1: and it works to the benefit of female defendants, especially
46:44
Speaker 1: when they're a mother. Because when you tell a jury
46:47
Speaker 1: this young mom, when they hear the word mom, I
46:50
Speaker 1: think of my mother. You know, my mother literally put
46:55
Speaker 1: her own life in danger to save my life when
46:58
Speaker 1: I was a toddler and I can still remember it.
47:02
Speaker 1: It was at age three. I mean, when you say mother,
47:06
Speaker 1: I think of my mother, and it would be a
47:08
Speaker 1: cold day and you know where before I would want
47:12
Speaker 1: to convict a mother. Cheryl, He's absolutely right, He's dead accurate.
47:18
Speaker 1: And the thing it goes even beyond that, because everybody
47:21
Speaker 1: has a preconceived notion of what somebody's about when they
47:25
Speaker 1: meet them. Well, when you see somebody young and extremely
47:30
Speaker 1: pretty and you think, God, she's gotten the world by
47:33
Speaker 1: the tail right, and she's married, and it looks like
47:36
Speaker 1: everything is just going beautifully. You do not see this
47:40
Speaker 1: person coming when they all of a sudden say hey,
47:42
Speaker 1: she tried to hire it it man mob style. That
47:46
Speaker 1: goes against everything you're looking at. The two things don't
47:50
Speaker 1: fit for a lot of people. But again, that's some
47:53
Speaker 1: of the most dangerous type of criminals, the ones you
47:56
Speaker 1: never see coming. Well, this is what I always say.
47:59
Speaker 1: It's as if the mind is tricking the eye. Okay,
48:02
Speaker 1: because you see the young mom, you see pictures of
48:05
Speaker 1: the children, blah blah blah, and then you hear the evidence.
48:10
Speaker 1: And I always could use the Scott Peterson case as
48:13
Speaker 1: an example. Because you see this young some people say attractive.
48:18
Speaker 1: He was never attractive to me. Okay. In fact, you
48:23
Speaker 1: know you can help me with this, Dr Russell, you're
48:25
Speaker 1: the shrink. The only man that's attractive to me is
48:27
Speaker 1: my husband, because he's the one that helps me take
48:29
Speaker 1: care of the children and goes to the grocery store
48:31
Speaker 1: and helps with my mom. Okay, that is attractive to me.
48:35
Speaker 1: I don't give a fig how young or buff somebody is,
48:38
Speaker 1: and I do not want to see anybody else without
48:40
Speaker 1: their shirt on. Just save it. Okay, So Cheryl, it's
48:44
Speaker 1: like you see this young mom or this beautiful young lady,
48:48
Speaker 1: as Brian Claypool said, and you think wow. Like in
48:53
Speaker 1: Scott Peterson, he was young, some people thought attractive, college degree,
48:58
Speaker 1: golf scholarship, alleged of lee um, loving family job, beautiful home.
49:04
Speaker 1: Why would he do such a thing. It just doesn't
49:06
Speaker 1: even make sense. Awesome, straight teeth, nice smile, blah blah.
49:10
Speaker 1: He had it all right, and nobody wants to believe it.
49:13
Speaker 1: Same thing, but more so with a young woman, as
49:16
Speaker 1: Claypool is saying, right, Well, women traditionally, they don't think
49:21
Speaker 1: of women as being violent. They don't think of women
49:24
Speaker 1: are being you know, killers of the time. They're gonna
49:28
Speaker 1: be right. It's gonna be a man that harms the woman.
49:31
Speaker 1: So when they get this thing twisted and it's a
49:34
Speaker 1: three sixty, you're like, what the heck has happened? And again, Cheryl, yeah,
49:39
Speaker 1: I used to hate having to try women. Well, of
49:42
Speaker 1: course it helped me a lot. When one woman, her
49:45
Speaker 1: a Ka was newdi Pride, that helped me a lot.
49:48
Speaker 1: She burned down the whole whole apartment complex because she
49:50
Speaker 1: was mad at her girlfriend all right, So that helped
49:53
Speaker 1: with the name. Right at the beginning, when I yelled
49:55
Speaker 1: out Nuty pride in court, all right, that was a
49:57
Speaker 1: strike against her, all right, then let's say, um what Oh?
50:01
Speaker 1: Then I tried. I believe the oldest woman ever in
50:05
Speaker 1: Fulton County. I believe she was almost eighty uh for
50:09
Speaker 1: grand larceny. And I didn't want to try her. I
50:13
Speaker 1: tried to make her take probation and pay the people back.
50:15
Speaker 1: She wouldn't do it, so I had to try the
50:18
Speaker 1: old lady. By that time in her life, she's about
50:21
Speaker 1: four ft nine, she was wearing a wig and um.
50:25
Speaker 1: She pretended to have a heart attack at the end
50:27
Speaker 1: of the trial and had to drag her out by
50:28
Speaker 1: her little armpits. But even after that, the judge was
50:32
Speaker 1: setting to give her jail time. I was such a softie.
50:35
Speaker 1: I asked for probation. I think he did give her
50:38
Speaker 1: a couple of days in jail, just to scare the
50:40
Speaker 1: mean old thing. But it's always tough when you try
50:44
Speaker 1: a woman. That's just a given. Eryl, it is a given.
50:47
Speaker 1: But Nancy, these women are so diabolical. And again I've
50:51
Speaker 1: heard you say in court you meet with this hit
50:55
Speaker 1: man on a Wednesday, and it's set and take place
50:58
Speaker 1: on a Friday. During that entire time, at no point
51:04
Speaker 1: did you attempt to call it all. At no point
51:07
Speaker 1: did your heart or your compassion or your do the
51:11
Speaker 1: right thing mechanism kick in and call off the murder
51:15
Speaker 1: of your children's father. So you can hate him as
51:20
Speaker 1: your husband, but your children deserve that man in their life,
51:24
Speaker 1: and that's what you took from them forever. You're gonna
51:29
Speaker 1: let them live with the stigma that their father was murdered.
51:33
Speaker 1: That's horrifying. So you're not talking about, Hey, I met
51:36
Speaker 1: with a hit man at three thirty and he shot
51:38
Speaker 1: my husband at four these this was in the making
51:42
Speaker 1: for weeks and weeks and days and days and hour
51:45
Speaker 1: by hour. You don't call it at all, and you
51:48
Speaker 1: know the countdowns and you get up and you get
51:51
Speaker 1: dressed and you leave the house knowing that man is
51:54
Speaker 1: gonna be dead today and you did nothing to stop it,
51:58
Speaker 1: you know, just hearing you laying out like that, like
52:02
Speaker 1: I've laid it out in court before, it's absolutely it's
52:07
Speaker 1: just who's jumping in? Is that Brian or Bryan Russell?
52:11
Speaker 1: And Nancy Can? I? Yeah? Can? I wanted to share
52:13
Speaker 1: a quick story please. You made a great point. If
52:16
Speaker 1: you message about about the mind tricking the eye with
52:19
Speaker 1: these beautiful young women, women who are are allegedly trying
52:22
Speaker 1: other husbands killed, you are so spot on because in
52:25
Speaker 1: the third trial that I that I that I did
52:28
Speaker 1: for Dahlia Dip, the lead up in the in the
52:32
Speaker 1: middle of that trial, I had to hear I had
52:34
Speaker 1: to hear those video tapes again, the audioce and and
52:37
Speaker 1: and then there were audio tapes, you know, the undercover
52:39
Speaker 1: audio tapes where you're hearing Dahlia talk, you know, and
52:43
Speaker 1: with foul language, and and and saying terrible things. You're
52:48
Speaker 1: so right because at that point I've never shared this before.
52:51
Speaker 1: At that point in time, I had I brought earplugs
52:55
Speaker 1: into the courtroom. I had my assistant by them for
52:58
Speaker 1: me the night before because I simply could not hear
53:01
Speaker 1: those tapes again because I was fighting myself. Like another
53:05
Speaker 1: reason I wasn't denial. I was saying to myself, this
53:09
Speaker 1: is not what I'm hearing, is not what I believe
53:13
Speaker 1: about this woman, beautiful, young lady, attractive, comes from a loving,
53:19
Speaker 1: beautiful family like I was. I felt like my mind
53:23
Speaker 1: was playing tricks on myself, and I just didn't want
53:25
Speaker 1: to hear those tapes again, so I literally put earplugs
53:30
Speaker 1: in while the prosecution was playing them. Isn't that something
53:32
Speaker 1: you Brian? You're You're really touching my heart right now,
53:35
Speaker 1: because when you get to know somebody, you see the
53:40
Speaker 1: good in them. Like if somebody were to try to
53:42
Speaker 1: tell me something about my mom. You know, Brian, my
53:47
Speaker 1: mom has never touched alcohol or hold life. Now, I
53:49
Speaker 1: can't say that that that about my dear dad. He
53:52
Speaker 1: was not afraid of cottail, but she never curse. I
53:57
Speaker 1: heard a curse one time, and guess when it was him?
54:00
Speaker 1: When we were going over to practice and the door,
54:05
Speaker 1: the front door to the church was locked. She said.
54:09
Speaker 1: I think she said damnin or hell one time in
54:14
Speaker 1: her whole life. She just turned eighties six yesterday. She is,
54:18
Speaker 1: in my mind like a saint. Nothing but love and
54:23
Speaker 1: hard work her whole life. And when you love somebody,
54:29
Speaker 1: you you don't want to hear anything bad about them.
54:33
Speaker 1: I mean, I will go to the map with my
54:34
Speaker 1: husband if he says one thing about my mother or
54:36
Speaker 1: the twins. I mean, that's a war between the gods.
54:39
Speaker 1: You know. He just like goes outside sits with the dog. Seriously,
54:43
Speaker 1: I mean, and you're saying you couldn't stand it so
54:46
Speaker 1: much because you've gotten to know her, and that's not
54:49
Speaker 1: the person you think you know. So when it boils
54:53
Speaker 1: down to it, Brian Russell, I wonder you're the shrink
54:58
Speaker 1: and host of discoveries face a vows. I wonder if
55:01
Speaker 1: there's that part in all of us. I wonder how
55:06
Speaker 1: far any of us aren't away from doing something evil,
55:10
Speaker 1: something bad. Well, the good news is, I think most
55:13
Speaker 1: of us are pretty far away from doing something evil.
55:15
Speaker 1: I think that that many of us are close to
55:19
Speaker 1: doing something violent if it is in the furtherance of
55:24
Speaker 1: protection of, you know, those that we love and care about.
55:27
Speaker 1: So I think people who would never be capable of
55:31
Speaker 1: going up and punching somebody in the face normally would
55:34
Speaker 1: have no problem doing it if the person were, you know,
55:37
Speaker 1: striking out at their child or their spouse or something
55:40
Speaker 1: like that. Cheryl, let me hear your thoughts on women
55:46
Speaker 1: that kill Nancy for the murder for higher their corn artists.
55:51
Speaker 1: And I think when you hear the defense attorney when
55:54
Speaker 1: he was talking about having to get earplugs, that's just
55:57
Speaker 1: how good she was at the corn and you keep
56:00
Speaker 1: the con going. You've got the one woman that love
56:03
Speaker 1: joy that you know faith at the end of it,
56:06
Speaker 1: when she sent it, she's keeping the con going. They
56:10
Speaker 1: are devils, and this isn't the first time they've put
56:14
Speaker 1: on a ruse. This is the first time they've lied that.
56:17
Speaker 1: This the first time they've just led people. It's just
56:19
Speaker 1: the first time they've done it at this level. But
56:22
Speaker 1: they are straight up carn artists that use whatever, whether
56:25
Speaker 1: it's their body, whether it's a lie, whether it's a
56:29
Speaker 1: hit man, to get their way. I think it's only
56:32
Speaker 1: fitting that we go out with another tiny, tiny SoundBite
56:36
Speaker 1: from our favorite hit girl, Dahlia di Polito. Brian Claypool,
56:43
Speaker 1: put in your ear plugs. Take a listen. Come here,
56:49
Speaker 1: come here, coming here, please here, like come here, please
56:59
Speaker 1: come here. Brian Claypool, nationally known criminal defense attorney. Dr
57:05
Speaker 1: Brian Russell, lawyer, psychologist and host of the hit show
57:09
Speaker 1: on Investigation Discovery, Fatal Vows. Bobby Maxwell, investigative reporter and
57:15
Speaker 1: my friend and colleague RYL. McCullum, crime scene expert and
57:20
Speaker 1: director of the Cold Case Institute. You guys are awesome,
57:24
Speaker 1: all of you. Thank you for being with me. Thank
57:27
Speaker 1: you for being with us. Nancy Gray's Crime Story, signing
57:31
Speaker 1: off goodbye friend,