Latest / Future Christian / Co-creating Renewal in your church with Rebekah Simon-Peter

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Co-creating Renewal in your church with Rebekah Simon-Peter · Future Christian

0:07
>> Loren Richmond: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the
0:13
21st century. At the Future Christian
0:16
podcast, we talk to pastors,
0:18
authors, and other faith leaders for helpful advice and
0:21
practical wisdom to help you and your community of
0:24
faith walk boldly into the future.
0:27
Whether you're a pastor, church leader, or a
0:30
passionate member of your faith community, this podcast
0:33
is designed to challenge, inspire, and
0:35
equip you with the tools you need for impactful
0:38
ministry. And now for a little bit about the guest for this
0:41
episode.
0:43
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. Today,
0:46
Loren Richmond Junior welcomes the Reverend
0:49
Rebecca Simon Peter to the show.
0:52
Rebecca is passionate about reconnecting
0:55
spiritual leaders with their God given powers to
0:58
co create miracles with the divine.
1:01
Her award winning group coaching program,
1:03
creating a culture of renewal, has
1:06
energized church leaders across the country to reclaim
1:09
their calling and to grow their ministries.
1:12
Rebecca is the author of several books, including
1:15
forging a new path, moving the church forward in a
1:17
post pandemic world, dream like
1:20
Jesus the jew named Jesus, Green
1:23
Church Green Church Leader guide
1:26
and seven simple steps to green your
1:28
church. Her next book is scheduled to be published
1:31
published October 2024.
1:34
A dynamic speaker, Rebecca has engaged and
1:37
challenged audiences around the country.
1:40
She is an avid hiker, dog mom, wife
1:43
to Jerry, lover of coffee, and a
1:46
gratitude junkie.
1:48
One housekeeping detail before our conversation
1:51
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2:02
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2:05
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2:17
>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. This is Loren Richmond.
2:20
Today I am pleased to be joined by the Reverend Rebecca
2:23
Simon Peter. Thank you so much for being here.
2:26
>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Thank you, Loren. It's a pleasure to be here today.
2:29
>> Loren: Glad to have this conversation. Share if
2:32
you would, anything else you'd like listeners to know about
2:35
yourself and a little bit about your background in faith
2:37
journey.
2:38
>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Oh, gosh. Uh, how much time do we have?
2:40
So I was born and raised jewish in an interfaith
2:43
home and jewish mom who actually
2:46
just passed away. So we're observing some jewish
2:49
traditions, uh, but really lovely around grieving
2:52
and supporting one another. And then a catholic
2:54
dada. And so I grew up kind of already
2:57
in an interdenominational world, except my dad was
3:00
already a lapsed catholic. So,
3:03
um, my mom and dad had decided to raise us in one faith
3:06
tradition, and, uh, they
3:09
decided I'm catholic. But then my mom realized my dad wasn't
3:11
even going to church so they switched over to
3:14
jewish. So all of us kids were raised, uh,
3:17
in the jewish faith, except my two older brothers who had
3:20
actually already been baptized. I think it's so funny that I'm the
3:23
one that actually had a call into the ministry and
3:26
a relationship with Jesus, but I was not baptized.
3:29
Uh, we were always reform. I was,
3:31
uh, uh, really into it. I
3:34
loved being jewish. I loved all the traditions and
3:37
everything. And, um, then I had a
3:40
big God experience which moved me into the orthodox
3:43
jewish world, where I was for six
3:45
years. And then I had a Jesus experience
3:48
which moved me into being a friend and then
3:51
follower, um, of Jesus, where I've been for the
3:54
last 30 odd years. So I had quite the
3:57
faith journey. And, um, my name is actually
4:00
part of that.
4:02
>> Loren: Yeah, I was going to ask you about that.
4:03
>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Simon Peter. People wonder, why are you Simon? And you married a
4:06
peter? Well, actually, when I had this big
4:09
experience, a, uh, vision of Jesus, a waking vision
4:12
of Jesus, very jewish Jesus, which is the only thing
4:15
that would have gotten my attention. Um, a friend of mine
4:18
said, well, you know, Jesus was jewish. It was like,
4:21
yeah. She said, well, you know, all the disciples were
4:24
jewish. And I was like, what's a disciple? She said,
4:26
oh, you've never read the New Testament? I said, it's
4:29
not my book. She said, I'm going to get you a copy. And I thought, well,
4:32
I'm not going to read it. She got me a copy. I
4:35
didn't read it at the time, but I did go to
4:37
seminary. And while I was in seminary,
4:40
um, I had what we call the call to ministry.
4:43
And as a part of that, um, I did
4:46
feel such a shift within me that I thought, the old name
4:49
doesn't even work anymore. And so interesting, they
4:52
started to whisper a new name to me. Um, and
4:55
I had to ask my friend again, hey, is there a guy in the bible named
4:58
Simon Peter? Because I hadn't read the New Testament yet.
5:01
Is there a guy named Simon Peter? She said, yeah. I said, is he a
5:04
good guy or bad guy? Because I know how the bible goes. Right? Is he a good guy
5:07
or bad guy? She said was a pretty good guy. Well,
5:09
that was the name. That was the name that God was kind of
5:12
whispering to me. And so I ended up changing my whole name
5:15
to be this reflection of a jewish
5:18
person who follows Jesus. Simon
5:21
was a jew who followed
5:24
Jesus. In the process, Jesus changed his name. So I thought that's
5:27
just a perfect, um, symbol
5:30
for me of the journey that I've been on. So that's
5:33
where the name comes from.
5:36
>> Loren: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that deep, personal
5:38
story. Thank you again for your time as your
5:41
continuing grief lost your mother. And,
5:44
uh, thank you just for what
5:47
an interesting story.
5:50
Appreciate you sharing that. I'm curious,
5:53
as you reflect on that, what has been.
5:58
How has your being
6:00
raised in the jewish faith, if I can ask this,
6:03
informed your practice of Christianity today?
6:06
>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Well, I'll tell you, it's given me such a deep
6:08
appreciation for Jesus,
6:11
um, in many circles, because of
6:14
bad history, uh, in the christian
6:17
church, and, I mean, centuries ago, that
6:20
antisemitism, um, it's just
6:23
really helped me see Jesus from a new
6:26
perspective and bring that new
6:28
perspective to churches. Like, you know,
6:31
even this business of touching the hem of his garment, most
6:34
people think, oh, well, you know, the guy wore a long
6:37
thing, and he had a hem, and you reach out, you touch the hem. But
6:39
really, when you look at it, Jesus was wearing, um,
6:42
fridges, which, um, is traditional jewish
6:45
prayer shawl. It was more of a garment in those days.
6:48
And so what she was doing is she was reaching out and touching
6:51
his tzitzitzit. And those are
6:54
the knots and the fringes
6:57
that each one is representative of one of
7:00
the 613 mitzvot, or
7:02
commandments, um, found in the Hebrew
7:05
Bible. And so when you see jesus in
7:08
this extremely jewish perspective, I think the
7:11
main thing that it does, Loren, is it
7:13
places this story of the New Testament
7:16
firmly back in the jewish community. Here's
7:19
a jewish guy talking to jewish people
7:22
about jewish ideas, and that's
7:25
very different than the good christian
7:27
Jesus against the bad, faithless Jews,
7:30
which is often, once you take that Hebrew Bible and you
7:33
put it together with the New Testament, you bind it and you
7:36
stick it in a church pew, it has a whole different
7:39
context than, say, the Hebrew Bible does
7:42
in a synagogue, um, especially without the New
7:45
Testament. So really understanding the entire.
7:48
The New Testament did not exist in Jesus day. All
7:51
that there was was parts of what we now call the
7:53
hebrew bible or the Old Testament. So
7:56
when, uh, who is it? Uh, one of the New
7:59
Testament guys. Sorry, I can't remember his name. Says,
8:02
all of this is good for instruction. He's referring to the Bible.
8:05
All this is good for instruction. He's not talking about the New
8:08
Testament, he's talking about the Hebrew bible.
8:10
So when we see it's a jewish
8:13
prophet talking to jewish people
8:16
about jewish ideas, it just
8:19
changes the whole thing. Now it's been
8:22
read, it's been interpreted. There's layers, there's glosses,
8:25
there's droshes, there's revisions, there's resisions,
8:28
there's all of that that happens in a text over the
8:30
centuries that shifted.
8:33
Um, but I do think it makes it extremely
8:36
interesting and sort of more organic kind
8:39
of piece, um, when we see it in its original
8:42
context.
8:45
>> Loren: I can't help but think that you mentioned when you went
8:48
to seminary, you hadn't read the New Testament
8:51
yet. It kind of brings to mind,
8:54
probably folks wouldn't say officially
8:57
they'd never read the Old Testament,
9:00
probably. But there is
9:02
that weightedness in many
9:05
traditional seminaries, where the only thing that really
9:08
matters is the New Testament and the Old Testament.
9:11
You might as well not have read it, right?
9:14
>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Yeah. In part because replacement theology is
9:17
so prevalent. And in my book,
9:20
I know it's not talking about this book, but in my book, the jew named
9:23
Jesus, um, name
9:25
Jesus. Um, I just
9:28
really take on a lot of that,
9:31
uh, revisionism that's been there in christian history
9:34
and try to get us back to originals, you know,
9:37
original looking at things. And my book came out right around the same
9:40
time as Amy Jolivine's. I probably shouldn't mention Amy
9:43
Jolivine in the same, uh, interview here, but I sort of
9:46
think of my stuff as Amy Jolivine. Light,
9:49
uh, you know, for people who kind of just want
9:52
to get the gist of it. She does a beautiful job of going
9:55
in depth on so many levels. She makes a
9:57
powerful case with a strong foundation.
10:00
Um, I look to my own experiences and my own
10:03
history and my own studies and learning to, um. To
10:06
write the book that I wrote, but it came out right around the same time.
10:09
So it's interesting that that was sort of this
10:11
opening, you know, in the christian world to take a
10:14
look at this. Yeah.
10:16
>> Loren: Yeah. Well, I'm sure, uh,
10:19
I'm sure the christian faith could use a more accessible. For
10:21
as brilliant as Amy Jo Lavigne is, I'm not sure
10:24
how much her work is always accessible, right. To the
10:28
average pup sitter.
10:29
>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Brilliant and fabulous. I've met her. I like her.
10:32
And even I, uh, had a bit of a hard time working
10:35
through all the hebrew that was in the book.
10:39
>> Loren: Well, speaking of books, we're here to talk somewhat
10:42
about another book of
10:44
Rebecca's called forging a
10:47
new moving the church forward in a
10:49
post pandemic world.
10:52
So, before we get too much into that, kind
10:55
of what interested me when I was introduced to
10:58
Rebecca was just kind of about her work in
11:01
the church revitalization space.
11:04
So I want to hear, just share, if you would, broadly,
11:07
about that work and kind of what inspires you to
11:10
want to help churches.
11:11
>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: You know, when I had, when I went to seminary, right, way back
11:14
when I went to seminary, got the call of ministry,
11:17
started off in local church, I served three local churches, um,
11:20
in the United Methodist world, I served a beautiful
11:23
black, primarily black church, a uh,
11:25
large, sort of suburban, sort of corporate
11:28
feeling church, and then a smaller rural
11:31
ish Wyoming church. So those are the three
11:34
spaces that I served in. And in every place I served. I
11:37
loved the people, they loved God, it was clear. And at the
11:40
same time I sort of felt like um, I was
11:43
reverend to go and they were sort of holding back
11:46
and I thought, is it the difference between an adult, you
11:49
know, sort of conversion experience and being raised in the faith?
11:52
At the time I thought it was, I didn't
11:54
understand that later there were some
11:57
simple personality differences. And
12:00
so I did a lot of pushing and pulling
12:03
and trying to get people to do what I thought we were supposed to be
12:06
doing. And in the end I thought, you know, I
12:09
could give twenty four seven, I could give
12:11
myself twenty four seven. And that's probably what it would take
12:14
to keep the growth going because there was definitely growth happening in all
12:17
the churches I served. But I had this uh,
12:20
suspicion that if I began to withdraw any of my
12:22
energy, things would sort of
12:25
slowly, uh, and I
12:27
hated that idea, but I didn't know how to do it differently, I just
12:30
didn't, I didn't know what to do differently. So I
12:33
ended up leaving local church ministry after twelve years because I was.
12:36
It's not that I didn't love God, it's not that I gave up on Jesus,
12:39
it's not that I rescinded my call or anything like
12:42
that. It's just that I got burnt out.
12:45
I thought, my gosh, how does a person keep going,
12:48
you know? And especially when I found that I
12:51
pulled some of my big books off the top shelf, you know,
12:54
and did some more in depth kind of sermons, I got some
12:57
pushback because it didn't immediately meet what
12:59
people thought they already believed and should believe, you know, there's
13:02
all that sort of stuff going on.
13:04
>> Loren: Yeah.
13:04
>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: So I got into um, the kind of ministry
13:08
that I would say is entrepreneurial ministry in the United Methodist Church.
13:10
We call it extension ministry, where you're extending the
13:13
ministry of the church beyond the four walls. So for
13:16
me as a startup and I was doing
13:19
basically continuing education for church
13:22
leadership development. And I started in the
13:25
area of um, reading the Bible with jewish eyes and then
13:28
I went to sort of green church because I'd also written
13:31
books on that. That was part of my background. But I got
13:34
a lot of calls, um, for leadership
13:37
development. And the first thing I thought is, what do I know about
13:39
leadership development? You know, I thought, well, I better learn because
13:42
this is what is being asked for. And so
13:45
slowly, slowly, I began to do the work that revealed
13:48
to me and the program that I
13:51
now lead, I've designed and developed, and it's
13:54
called creating a culture of
13:56
renewal. So it's way beyond, um, sort
13:59
of planting a new church or starting a new ministry, or doing a
14:02
fresh expression or getting small groups
14:05
going, even though every single one of those things is important.
14:08
Refreshing workshops, every single one of those things is
14:10
important. But this was looking at something deeper because
14:13
my background was environmental studies. I was used
14:16
to thinking in terms of ecosystems and sort of how
14:19
everything works together, right.
14:22
Water and air and soil and inputs and outputs and
14:25
all of that. All of that's part of an ecosystem. Well, there's an
14:28
ecosystem in the church that, um, has
14:31
it either be more in the space of,
14:35
um. We used to call it maintenance versus
14:38
mission when I was in local. Is a church in
14:40
maintenance mode or is it a mission mode? But now I would
14:43
say more, is the church in,
14:46
um, sort of stagnation or is it in
14:49
renewal? Is it in decline or is it in
14:51
renewal and decline? You know, I would look at
14:54
numbers, like around worship. I would look at vitality
14:57
of prayer life. I would look
15:00
at vigorousness of, um, risk
15:02
taking and dreaming. I would think about the kind of leadership
15:05
that's happening. Does everybody have to agree and does there
15:08
have to be consensus and just enough
15:11
feelings, or can there be some curious,
15:13
adventuresome stuff taking place?
15:16
And, um, so I would think of churches that are
15:19
in the decline mode or churches that are in the
15:22
renewal mode. And when I think about renewal, I think about the renewal
15:25
of miracles, because when you think about it,
15:28
what set, uh, Jesus apart from every other teacher of his
15:31
day? And there were many, there were even other teachers that
15:34
had disciples, there were traveling teachers. There were
15:37
many, many interesting characters on the scene at
15:39
Jesus time. What set Jesus
15:42
apart? He did miracles. Now, he actually
15:44
wasn't the only miracle maker out there, okay? There was honey,
15:48
the circle maker, and there were some, you know, in the talmudic literature, you
15:51
can see there were some other miracle makers. But really, the big
15:53
person that we remember from those days is Jesus.
15:56
Why miracles? Jesus was all
15:59
about the miracle. And many of our churches
16:02
are so far removed from miracles that they wouldn't
16:05
know one if it knocked on the door, and they're
16:08
the sort of busy trying to do their own thing and
16:10
they operate, Loren. Sort of this, sort of
16:13
this middle band of predictability
16:16
and reliability. Uh, and
16:19
I mean, I get it, I get it. Especially for organizations that
16:22
are worried about, you know, sort of going out of business. I get it.
16:25
But it does take us very far from the space that
16:28
Jesus operated in, which was the
16:30
miraculous, the unpredictable,
16:33
the risk taking, the pivot, the
16:35
about face. Like the stuff you just don't expect.
16:39
The Bible happens to be full of that, you know, the
16:41
metamessages. Hey, what you think is the right thing or what
16:44
you think, uh, you know, God's going to do, he's probably going to do something
16:47
else. That's kind of the meta story of the
16:50
Bible. But I think Jesus is a perfect, um,
16:53
living exemplar for us of that. And so what
16:56
I really am interested in is helping churches get
16:59
back into the zone of the miraculous, where they're
17:02
co creating miracles with God.
17:05
And a lot of times that means moving from sort
17:08
of being content with having members and doing stuff like
17:11
that, even from contentment to sort
17:13
of making disciples to actually advancing to
17:16
this to apostleship. Advancing from
17:19
discipleship to apostleship. Because if you think
17:22
about it, discipleship, uh, has us constantly follow,
17:25
follow, follow.
17:28
And, um, I don't, you know, Jesus even said,
17:30
look, I'm calling you people because I'm going to send you
17:33
out. He trained him how to do all this stuff. He
17:36
sent him out to do that stuff. There would be no
17:39
even memory of Jesus or of the church if
17:42
it weren't for those people he called to him that ended
17:45
up, uh, being apostles. So I think we're
17:48
actually called to something even greater than attending
17:51
or being members, but being
17:53
advocates, ambassadors,
17:56
um, authorized, anointed
17:58
apostles. I know it's so traditional
18:01
language. Um, and different denominations
18:04
will hear that differently in the
18:06
broadest, most generous way possible. When I say
18:09
apostleship,
18:11
yeah, yeah.
18:13
>> Loren: I really appreciate just that
18:15
framework, that frame of mind and believing,
18:19
you know, a miracle can happen. And let's be
18:22
frank.
18:22
>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Right?
18:22
>> Loren: Like, many churches need a miracle.
18:25
>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Yes.
18:26
>> Loren: Something we can agree on. So obviously, a
18:29
lot has happened in the american
18:32
christian cultural space since
18:35
2020,
18:37
and you're welcome to
18:40
answer this kind of
18:43
as much as you're willing to reveal. Like, I'm just
18:46
curious, like, how are you as a
18:48
clergy leader? How are the pastors in the churches you
18:51
talk to in your book, you write about the
18:54
so much unprocessed grief.
18:57
What have you seen that, uh,
19:00
as you encounter with your work with various
19:03
churches and pastors.
19:05
>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Well, first, from a personal standpoint,
19:08
I, as much as anybody, wanted things
19:11
to go back to normal much as anybody
19:13
else, didn't want this pandemic to have
19:16
broad reaching implications. I remember early
19:19
in the days, maybe April 2020, there were already big
19:22
magazine spreads. I thought, how do they know? But, you know,
19:25
we're never going back. I thought, you know, it's. We're like a month
19:28
in or two months for three or six. How did they
19:31
know? And it scared me. I'll just tell you the flat
19:34
out truth. It scared me. Oh, my
19:37
God. Because at that time, you know, we were in the sort of
19:39
shutdowns, and I had
19:42
a fear that, are we ever going to leave? I mean, I just
19:45
couldn't even see past where we were. I had never been through
19:48
a, uh, pandemic or an epidemic, not
19:51
personally. You know, I just didn't know what it was going to be
19:54
like. And I knew that the pastors around me were
19:57
scared. I also knew that they were really rising to the
19:59
occasion. Uh, I mean, I think one of the things that was
20:02
extraordinary was how quickly, like I and many
20:05
others for years, Loren had been pushing, pushing,
20:08
pushing, you know, for churches to make some leaps
20:11
online giving. And, you know, don't
20:14
just agree yourself with the building and
20:17
be willing to pivot, you know, and all of a sudden,
20:20
overnight, this thing called Covid-19
20:22
bing, you know, did it. So
20:25
tremendous respect for the pastors that
20:28
were on the front lines in churches that had
20:31
overnight to figure out how to go
20:34
online and figure stuff out. So
20:37
I think in some ways, it was unprocessed grief. Who had
20:39
time? Who had time to grieve? They just had
20:42
to spring into action. And so
20:45
tremendous, tremendous admiration
20:48
for the pastors doing that.
20:50
Um, I do think there was a certain amount of
20:53
weariness that came after that,
20:56
just deep weariness. People were overextended.
20:59
It sort of looked like they were doing nothing, just showing
21:02
up on a little camera on Sunday morning. But of course,
21:04
these are the same people who often hear you just work 1 hour a
21:07
week, which we all know isn't true.
21:10
So, um, I think that's part of the reason there was
21:13
unprocessed grief. I think what I'm
21:16
seeing now, as I continue to work in this space through creating
21:19
a culture of renewal and other work that I do with
21:22
other, um, denominations
21:24
and leaders, laity and clergy,
21:27
is that, you know, we're coming back.
21:30
Churches are coming back. There was definitely a dip. There was a
21:33
dip in attendance. Uh, surprisingly, not
21:36
always a dip in giving. I found giving
21:38
stayed pretty steady. Did you find that?
21:41
>> Loren: Yeah, the data has shown that.
21:42
>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Yeah, yeah, giving stayed pretty steady, but
21:45
attendance declined. Um, missional
21:48
engagement declined.
21:50
Um, connectivity. Yeah, there was
21:53
online connectivity. But I mean, like, this
21:55
togetherness, like, all of a sudden, it's perfectly
21:59
okay to just show up on Zoom. I mean, all
22:01
kinds of fabulous uses of that. But we have lost
22:04
something of this togetherness
22:07
where you can. Touching shoulders,
22:10
touching the hem of a garment. I mean, imagine that online.
22:15
Uh, so, yeah, there's a lot that's been
22:18
lost. There's a lot that's been gained.
22:20
And I'm sensing in the United Methodist
22:23
and in other parts of the
22:26
mainline world that there's now this
22:28
readiness to get going again. Okay, let's have
22:31
a vision. We're ready. Let's take the next step.
22:33
>> Loren: I hope you're right. Boy, oh, boy, I hope you're right.
22:37
>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: What are you seeing, Loren? What are you seeing?
22:40
>> Loren: Well, this is a podcast where I like to hear from others.
22:42
So I, uh, still have so many more
22:45
questions asking. We got to get to. So I don't want to delay
22:48
those. But I am appreciative of
22:51
your insights and your hopefulness.
22:54
Um, it's said that Covid
22:57
accelerated many changes that were coming to
22:59
church in America. Certainly
23:03
you mentioned some examples like the
23:05
move to utilize online giving,
23:08
trying to get people out of the building and be more of
23:11
a, you know, the phrase we all heard a million times, church is not the
23:14
building. Certainly
23:16
utilizing more this kind
23:19
of thing, uh, telecommunications tools
23:22
for meetings. Not only. Not always does
23:25
every meeting have to take place around a table at the
23:28
church. What are some other examples that you've
23:31
seen of accelerated
23:34
change coming to churches?
23:36
>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Well, Loren, I think, um, one
23:39
of the toughest things that
23:42
Covid brought to us accelerated in change
23:45
was the decline in worship. No. And it
23:48
was already happening. Um, in my book forging a new path,
23:51
I write about the three questions people are asking.
23:53
Um, when do things go back to normal? How do we get people
23:56
to church or back to church? And how do we do more with
23:59
less? And the truth is, I mean,
24:02
2019, we were already wondering those same
24:05
things. When do we get
24:08
back to the way it used to be? How do we get people back to church,
24:11
and how do we do more with less? We were already asking those questions.
24:14
We were asking those questions in 2015 and
24:16
2020. And in
24:18
2000. Okay, there was a
24:21
little bump after 2001 that
24:24
went away, and then we were wondering, how do we
24:27
get back? How do we get back? Sort of always remembering the good
24:30
old days. And so I think it did
24:33
accelerate, um, people's
24:36
departure from the church and their
24:38
evaluation. Is this really serving
24:41
me? Does this have what I need?
24:44
And honestly, I think, and I write about this in the book, Loren, about
24:47
the spiritual but not religious. And, you know, the
24:50
big exodus from the church. If you read the pew studies or any of
24:53
those other folks that are tracking religious life in America
24:56
and beyond, you know, the spiritual but not religious are a
24:59
big component. The nuns,
25:02
n o n e s, not n u n s with the
25:05
nuns and the duns, that that's just a big part.
25:07
People believe in church because there. There's something missing
25:10
from church, or they're just not finding what they're
25:13
looking for there. And I think that kind of sped it up.
25:17
>> Loren: Yeah. Well, let's come back to that
25:20
spiritual growth component. You
25:23
use the phrase and talked about this, obviously, in the book, the
25:26
question of how to do more with less. From
25:29
my perceptions of really where the american church,
25:32
and I hate to use this word, industry
25:35
is going, it seems like the
25:38
middle sized church is really going to struggle the most.
25:42
Because when you think about a
25:44
megachurch or really big church just really has,
25:47
again, to use an economic term, economies of scale
25:50
to make things. They're often run
25:54
a mini corporation, often. And then in the
25:57
contrast, a really small, really tiny church can
26:00
often be sustained by a couple, three families
26:03
who are just really committed to it.
26:05
Whereas what used to be the
26:08
classic 150 sized church, to
26:11
me at least, seems to be like the most vulnerable
26:14
because it declines in giving, you know, uh,
26:17
declines in participation and
26:20
then just not having. If they're trying to compete with
26:23
the behemoth churches, they just don't have the resources
26:26
to compete with a big musical production
26:29
or children's programming or what name
26:31
you. So many churches
26:34
are facing this real how to do more with
26:37
less challenge. What have you. What have you
26:40
offered churches of that medium variety?
26:42
>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Yeah, the medium range. You had the medium.
26:45
This is true in women's clothing, too.
26:47
Um, those
26:50
sizes, not really. You can't really count on the
26:53
sizes you grew up with because now, anyway, that's a whole
26:56
other story. But it used to be that, uh, the
26:59
medium sized church was, what,
27:00
350? Maybe even close
27:03
to 500. You know, like 100 to
27:06
500. And then, you know, below that was
27:08
small. Well, now those churches are shrinking, and
27:11
you're right, they're shrinking down into that
27:14
category that we think of as small churches. And,
27:17
uh, you're right, you know, a couple of families,
27:20
um, several committees or interest groups, you know, can
27:23
really sustain in church life.
27:26
I've really chosen to think about,
27:30
um, what we can learn from the
27:32
spiritual, but not religious, because, after all,
27:35
they are the people that were in the churches that
27:38
left. So it's almost like we
27:41
never did the exit interview.
27:44
And what was really missing for people?
27:48
Um, and I say, I write in the book, there are a lot of people
27:51
who say, gosh, I don't know what I would do without church.
27:53
And sometimes it's meant to be a dig at people who've left church.
27:56
How do they get by without in church? Well, anyways, they're getting
27:59
by just fine because they found other forms of
28:02
community. But what can we learn from the
28:05
spiritual but not religious? I think there's so much we
28:08
can learn, which is primarily, we can bring
28:11
more spirituality into our churches.
28:13
You know, um, I'm all for religion. I'm all
28:16
for that binding together of community. But
28:19
what if that was simply the way we gather, you know,
28:22
some of the, um, traditions.
28:25
Um, like right now, my family, um, is
28:28
honoring jewish mourning traditions,
28:32
and it's bringing our family together in some
28:34
amazing ways. Do we all believe the same? Nope. Do we
28:37
all even believe in God? No. Do we all have
28:40
spirituality? No. But we've got this religion
28:43
and these practices that are actually holding us
28:46
together long enough that some, I can see it
28:49
happening in my family members. There's some spirituality
28:51
happening. There's some God awakening moments that aren't
28:54
happening. So, okay, so let's have religion
28:57
be what religion is. It's powerful, beautiful
29:00
container for us. Let's not give up our traditions. We
29:03
can tweak, of course, but let's have the traditions we
29:06
have now within those traditions. What is
29:09
it? We're actually lifting up and surfacing? Well,
29:12
what about spirituality? You know, what
29:15
about that? I'm not saying we give up mission. I'm not
29:18
saying we give up helping people. But why not
29:20
fill people? Why not give people the opportunity to
29:23
deeply connect with a power greater than
29:26
themselves? Why not give people the chance
29:29
to have that one on one? The Bible is a record
29:32
of people's spiritual encounters with God,
29:35
and then what happened as a result. But we now read the
29:38
Bible as a, uh, as
29:41
a series of morality tales. Do, don't, do, don't.
29:44
Extra, extra, do, extra, extra, don't. Right. That's how
29:47
we read it. But what if we peeled away that
29:50
layer and got back into, oh, here's
29:53
a series of encounters with God, and here's
29:56
how people responded and grew spiritually and what
29:59
they did. Um, so I'm all about
30:01
helping people really deepen the spiritual power of
30:04
their churches. And that's individual spirituality,
30:07
that's communal spirituality. And then there's
30:10
visionary spirituality. So
30:13
this is the good stuff I came up with after I wrote the book.
30:17
But, you know, individual spirituality, like, you know, I matter.
30:20
And each of us can have a deep connection, communal
30:23
spirituality, where the church itself is a
30:25
spiritual community. We grow spiritually, we're
30:28
safe to talk about our spirituality, we're safe to grow in it
30:31
together. And then visionary spirituality
30:34
is where, you know, we take this beautiful
30:37
spiritual connection we have and we envision
30:39
how can we bless the world with it?
30:43
Yes, not so much from we have, you don't. We're going to
30:46
save you a lot of time. That's where mission comes from. But
30:49
this deep spirituality that inhabits
30:52
all of us, you know, what can we share?
30:55
How can we be, how can we
30:58
let our spirituality expand beyond us?
31:02
>> Loren: Yes, what I really appreciate that
31:04
is I'm convinced that,
31:07
and this is, um, I'm in
31:10
debt to the work of theologian Nandra Root on
31:13
this. But I'm convinced that really what's
31:17
lacking in so many churches is, like you said, a spirituality.
31:20
This idea that we come here to find God,
31:22
because this, uh, is my opinion. And you can
31:25
push back or disagree if you think so, but I think I.
31:28
We can find community in so many other
31:31
spaces. We can find
31:34
connection, we can find friendships, um, we
31:37
can frankly find, you know,
31:40
social justice movements in other spaces.
31:44
I'm of the opinion, at least, that I come to
31:47
church because especially in
31:50
our modern world, where it can be so hard to find
31:53
and recognize God's presence. To me at
31:55
least, church is a place where I know I can go
31:59
hear the testimony, like you said, of other people connecting
32:02
with God, be in a place where I know
32:05
people have connected with God and
32:08
be around people who may be experiencing
32:10
God presence in the moment. Right.
32:14
>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: I totally agree with you, Loren. Uh, no pushback
32:17
here.
32:19
>> Loren: And that's why, uh, that's why I really
32:21
appreciate your emphasis on spirituality.
32:25
So you talk about in your book this idea of helping people
32:28
grow in their stages of faith. And I think
32:32
as someone who's been really interested in
32:34
that and
32:38
studied, or at least unofficially studied
32:41
church culture, I suppose from
32:43
evangelical to mainline spaces.
32:46
You know, if we're going to broadly use James Fowler's least,
32:49
I'm assuming that's coming on his stages of faith,
32:52
we would broadly say that like many evangelical churches
32:55
are in a stage two, many mainliners
32:58
churches are probably in a stage three. And it's
33:01
from my opinion, really hard to create a space
33:04
where you can have those four and
33:07
fives feel, I don't know,
33:11
um, appreciated or welcome, but also,
33:13
like, feeding that need of that, too. So
33:17
talk more about that, because that's a broad range of
33:19
spirituality.
33:20
>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Yeah. So James Fowler, um, is who we're
33:23
talking about. He's got, what is it, five
33:25
stages. The first stage is fantasy
33:28
and reality. That's sort of preschoolers.
33:31
Second stage is school age children beginning to
33:34
understand logic, but they're still thinking about things. Very
33:36
literally, jonah, you know, belly of the whale. Right.
33:39
Uh, and then the third stage, uh,
33:42
synthetic, conventional teenage years.
33:45
This is where people begin to develop their all
33:47
encompassing belief systems. And they
33:50
synthesize what they know from school and their
33:52
friends and their family and work,
33:55
if they're working and they're starting to unconsciously
33:58
form their belief systems. And, um,
34:01
they're unaware that they actually have a system
34:04
and that other people have other systems or other
34:07
experiences. And, uh, their
34:10
belief system provides a sense of stability and
34:12
identity and belonging. And it's, you know,
34:15
it's important. And trust is placed in individuals or
34:18
groups that best represent their belief system.
34:21
And a lot of people stay in that stage, like you said, throughout
34:24
their lives. Well, Fowler's fourth stage,
34:27
he calls that individuative or reflective,
34:30
and that can begin to unfold as early as young
34:33
adulthood. But what happens here is awareness
34:36
starts to expand and the realization begins to
34:39
dawn on a person. Hey, the way I
34:42
look at, uh, things is sort of one
34:44
way among them. And so there starts
34:47
to be critical exploration of their own system,
34:50
sometimes disillusionment with their beliefs. And
34:53
they probably.
34:53
>> Loren: The deconstruction that's so popular.
34:56
>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Yeah, they become disenchanted, they swing to
34:58
the opposite side. I think that's what happened for my dad,
35:01
actually, because he was raised in
35:04
this third stage kind of thing, and he began
35:07
to think, well, Jesus isn't thinking about every
35:10
one of my thoughts, and how could God and blah, blah, blah, you
35:13
know, he just. And he swung the other side. Now,
35:16
my dad and I have had a number of conversations, and he's
35:19
actually. He's actually identified as
35:22
spiritual. And it's like, whoa, what a big thing. For my dad,
35:24
he's 88. Okay? So spiritual but not
35:27
religious is sort of when he remembers that, that's how he
35:30
identifies. And, um, so
35:33
what happens is stage three, people think that stage
35:36
four, people have become backsliders, when
35:38
actually they're really moving forward. And
35:41
then the fifth stage, just to give an overview for Fowler. It's called
35:44
it conjunctive fate, um,
35:47
sort of midlife. And the limits of
35:50
logic are acknowledged. The paradoxes of life are
35:53
accepted and integrated. And at this point, a
35:56
person could actually return to the stories of their
35:58
faith, not have to take them literally,
36:01
hold science and scripture and spirituality
36:04
altogether, and sort of, you know, what we call live in the
36:07
mystery of it all. You know, like, relate to the
36:10
parts they relate to, don't get hung up on the parts they don't get hung
36:13
up on, and they don't have to be in either or. Now, stage six,
36:16
that's sort of Dalai Lama, you know,
36:18
Jesus, um, Mother Teresa, rabbis.
36:21
Zalman, Shachter, shalom. You know, there are people, right?
36:24
And you've heard it said that the people sort of, at the binnacle, they all
36:26
relate to each other regardless of the faith tradition. They've come
36:29
out of much more to each other than any of the rest of
36:32
us plebeians, right? So how can a
36:35
church actually, you know, hold space at least
36:38
from three to four into five? You know, if
36:41
we produce this fabulous, right, but, you know,
36:44
three into four, five. I
36:47
think it's if we adopt
36:50
the metaphor or the symbol or
36:53
the concept or the vehicle
36:56
of spiritual journey
36:59
that we're all on a spiritual journey,
37:03
and we don't berate where
37:06
somebody is on the journey. If you've ever been a pastor,
37:08
you know, or any kind of leader, you know that one of the best ways
37:11
to approach people is not to insist on your way,
37:14
because, you know, that's not going to work for everybody. But meet people
37:17
where they're at, wherever they are, can they move one step
37:20
forward in their journey, given their beliefs? Can they
37:23
move a step or two or three forward, you know, on
37:26
their path? That's. That's how I tried to approach it
37:29
with people when I came to faith. What would it take for them to move
37:32
forward in their journey? And so I think when we
37:35
really adopt that whole idea of we're all on
37:38
a spiritual journey, that we can then
37:41
begin to make space for people in different parts of
37:44
the journey. And there's plenty of helpful in the
37:47
Bible, you know, literally spiritual
37:49
journeys. Um, and then,
37:52
you know, plenty of stories among. Of Jesus's
37:55
people. You know, Jesus and the people that,
37:58
their stories with him. But, um, in the Hebrew
38:01
Bible, there's stories too. I just think the Bible is full of those
38:04
stories of people on a journey meet goddess.
38:07
The journey changes somehow. They deepen with
38:10
God, something happens. I mean, that's the whole Bible. So I think
38:13
we could take that. I don't think it's a hard
38:15
stretch to take that. And that would create more of a
38:18
space for people to, um, move in
38:21
their direction within one
38:23
congregation.
38:25
>> Loren: Yeah, that's helpful. I appreciate you sharing that.
38:28
I was kind of chuckling internally, too, as you were describing
38:31
the stages of faith. Those thinking about
38:34
previous. Well, actually, not as I'm recording this,
38:37
the last episode that released was the two
38:40
part episode with, uh, Doctor
38:42
Elizabeth Schrader Pulzer,
38:45
who's the New Testament scholar of
38:48
Mary Magdalene. And it's very much kind of the process
38:51
she described of her own kind of journey of like,
38:54
growing up in church, you know, kind of
38:56
disappearing in her twenties, and then, like, now she's a
38:59
New Testament professor. So it is
39:02
so essential that churches can somehow make
39:05
space for people when they're going through
39:07
that three, four, whatever
39:10
stage. You know,
39:13
it's such hard work, but important work. Right.
39:15
>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Uh, I think we're pretty good at doing one, two, and three because,
39:18
you know, we have preschool, we have Sunday school,
39:21
we can get to three. I think we
39:24
just haven't thought too much about
39:27
how do you help people navigate four
39:30
and get to five. But I bet a lot of pastors
39:33
are. I bet a lot of pastors are in
39:36
five, you know, where they've done the
39:38
wrestling and they've sort of, in this place of
39:41
science and scripture, you know,
39:44
faith and tradition and science
39:47
and life and, you know what I mean? Like, sort
39:50
of holding it all. We kind of have to
39:52
m. This.
39:54
>> Loren: Is my hobby horse, Rebecca, so
39:57
forgive me, but I'm like, it feels like in evangelical
40:00
churches, it's like they bang on the fores for
40:03
being, like you said, back sliding.
40:06
And then what I think happens
40:10
in mainline and progressive circles is just like, oh, well, yeah, you're
40:13
fine. That's fine. You can stay a
40:15
four. So that's why I appreciate. You're like, hey,
40:18
you're not done yet.
40:19
>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Yes. You're not done yet. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
40:22
>> Loren: Spiritual journey.
40:23
>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Yeah.
40:24
>> Loren: All right, let's do one more question here before we take a
40:27
break, because I think this is important you brought up
40:29
earlier, and I don't want to let it go.
40:32
Um, you mentioned in your
40:35
book making disciples of Jesus versus
40:38
creating church attenders. And I was just listening to, of all
40:41
things, a southern Baptist podcast this
40:44
morning when I was walking the dog, and they're talking about, you know, 30,
40:47
40 years ago, the culture was you could just open
40:50
up a church, people would show up,
40:53
and you'd have a bunch of church attenders you know,
40:56
uh, even in mainline contexts, there
40:58
was
41:01
a, uh, similar reality. Talk
41:04
about how to make disciples rather than church
41:07
attenders.
41:08
>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Yeah. First off, it'd be fabulous to have
41:11
church attenders. Right? Like, let's not cast
41:14
aspersions on the church agendas.
41:17
>> Loren: Yes, please.
41:18
>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Let's not assume that just coming to church
41:21
is enough, even for the person who's
41:24
coming. Like, we don't have to have some
41:27
agenda, like a hidden agenda.
41:30
But I think people who come to church are looking to
41:32
grow, and they're not necessarily looking to just
41:35
hop on a committee. I made that mistake. Oh, you're new. Would you
41:38
like to serve on this committee? That committee? Oh, you're not
41:41
never coming back. Oh, sorry. You
41:44
know, I've made that mistake, so. But I think when we can
41:47
journey with people and really get to know what
41:50
their. Their life is about, what are
41:53
their hopes, their hurts, what brought them to church, what are they looking
41:55
for that we can find the
41:58
answers, um, but we can guide
42:01
them and direct them deeper into the life of Jesus,
42:04
the teachings of Jesus, the presence
42:06
of Jesus. And so I think we need to not
42:09
assume biblical literacy is one thing. And a lot of
42:12
this now is just really about
42:14
deeply acquainting people with the life of Jesus.
42:17
And what did he teach and what are the ways to
42:20
understand that? What are the ways to follow in his
42:23
footsteps? And that moves somebody from
42:25
simply attending to moving into
42:29
that space of discipleship. Oh, um, Jesus is
42:32
my teacher. Let me be his student.
42:35
And then, as I hinted at before, Loren, I
42:37
think that to truly
42:40
follow Jesus and to emulate him then
42:43
is to understand that Jesus is interested in sending
42:46
people out who have agency,
42:49
who
42:51
have freely accepted
42:54
the authority that he grants and the miracle
42:57
making that he offers, and that we
43:00
become partners with him in being
43:03
active agents of
43:06
good stuff in the world, you know?
43:09
Um,
43:12
and that we can be part of the solution in so many
43:15
ways. And I'm not even presuming that I know what the
43:17
solution is. If only we had more of this or more of that.
43:20
But what if it's just about love and
43:23
acceptance? You know, what if it was even as simple
43:26
as that? So I do think there's people who
43:28
come, wonderful, you know, come, please
43:31
join us in church then getting deeper into the
43:34
teachings, understanding the teachings and the ethos
43:37
and Jesus way of being. And then
43:40
don't forget that part where Jesus then took those
43:43
people and authorized them, taught them to go
43:45
out. And so part of that going out was deepening
43:48
their spirituality, not only having the faith of a
43:51
disciple, but beginning to have the faith
43:54
of an apostle. And what does that actually mean? And that's
43:56
actually my next book that's coming out. It's going to be
43:59
about that.
44:00
>> Loren: So anyway, well,
44:03
plenty to tease there. We've only dived into
44:06
just a little bit about Rebecca's work. Again, this
44:09
book we've been hinting around is forging
44:12
a new path, moving the church forward in a post
44:14
pandemic world. She's obviously got other books.
44:18
She's written one coming here in the pipeline.
44:21
We'll make sure we have links to all that in
44:24
the show notes, but for right now, let's take a quick break and
44:27
we'll come back with some closing questions. Questions.
44:32
All right, we're back with Reverend Rebecca Simon,
44:35
Peter, and, uh, enjoyed the conversation. So,
44:38
closing questions, you're welcome to take these as seriously or
44:41
not as you'd like to. First question, if you're
44:44
pope for a day, what might that day look
44:46
like for you?
44:47
>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Oh, my goodness. It would mean the first
44:50
female, uh, jewish
44:52
Christianity king. Pope. If
44:55
I were pope for a day, that's like, if I
44:58
were queen for a day.
44:59
>> Loren: Yes.
45:00
>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Oh.
45:00
Um,
45:03
let's circle back around. I feel like this is sort of.
45:05
>> Loren: One of those game where I don't.
45:06
>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Have the answer right away.
45:07
>> Loren: Sure. Yeah, that's fine. A theologian or historical
45:10
christian figure you'd want to meet or bring back to
45:13
life.
45:14
>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Um, you know, I always think
45:17
about Martin Luther King junior
45:20
and I, what a firebrand that guy was and what
45:23
it would be like to be in his presence for a bit. But I also
45:26
think about some of the earlier mystics, like Teresa of
45:28
Avila. Oh. Just to hang out with her.
45:31
What would that have been like? Katherine Kuhlman,
45:34
a, uh, pentecostal female
45:37
pastor from about, I don't know, 80 years ago,
45:40
uh, who performed miracles. She was
45:42
pentecostal. I studied her a little bit when I was early
45:45
in my christian journey. I'd love to know more about her, you know,
45:48
what was actually going on for her, I doing that
45:51
stuff. Um, so those are some of the people I'm
45:54
interested in.
45:55
>> Loren: Yeah. Related. I can't. I've been reading. It seems like
45:58
Amy simple MacPherson keeps coming up and what
46:02
a figure she was. Holy smokes. Yeah.
46:03
>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: She was another person I studied. So, interesting.
46:06
>> Loren: Yeah. What do you think history will remember from our current
46:09
time and place?
46:10
>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Politics. So,
46:13
politics, I think, uh, in many
46:16
ways, um, churches will be seen as a
46:20
corollary or subsidiary of the
46:23
political scene, not as the
46:25
leading light. Doesn't mean we're not doing
46:28
very good work. I'm just saying there are very big issues
46:31
at play here. And how will we
46:33
participate?
46:35
>> Loren: Well, uh, we need another podcast for that.
46:37
>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Yeah.
46:38
>> Loren: What do you hope for? The future of
46:41
Christianity? Maybe we could bring
46:43
filament more local. What do you hope for?
46:47
American churches or the churches maybe you work with or
46:50
will work with?
46:50
>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Don't give, uh, up hope. Don't give up hope. There's
46:53
so much hope. And we really can dream big.
46:56
There's no cap on dreaming big. We can co create
46:59
miracles. God is alive. There's no end date
47:02
on the church. Your faith doesn't have to shrink because
47:05
somebody thinks they don't care about church. Don't
47:08
give up. Don't give up. Don't give up. And, you
47:11
know, let's.
47:11
>> Loren: Yeah, I think we can go back to that. Let's believe in miracles,
47:14
right?
47:15
>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Yes, absolutely. The age of miracles is not passed.
47:18
>> Loren: Yeah. Well, where
47:21
can people connect with you? Learn more about the
47:23
organization, all that stuff.
47:24
>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Oh, yeah. Thank you for asking. Um, I can be found
47:27
online@rebeccasimonpeter.com.
47:28
r
47:31
e b e kah
47:33
simmonpeter
47:36
uh.com. and you can find my website there. You can find my
47:39
books on Amazon. And, um, you know,
47:42
just love to hear from people. And you can email me through
47:45
there. And, uh, maybe there'll be connections
47:48
on your podcast as well.
47:50
>> Loren: Yes, yes, yes. Well, this has been a wonderful
47:53
conversation. Really appreciate your time, um,
47:56
praying, especially for God's peace with you and
47:59
your family. As you continue to process
48:01
and grieve the loss of your mother. So may God's
48:04
peace be with you.
48:05
>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Thank you, Loren. Such a pleasure to be with you. And thank you so much
48:08
for the invitation and opportunity.
48:17
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian podcast.
48:20
The Future Christian podcast is produced by Resonate
48:22
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
48:25
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48:28
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48:31
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48:34
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48:37
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48:42
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48:45
Thanks. And go in peace.