Latest / Half the Picture / #13 - OWEN LIKES COMICS (Part 1/2)

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#13 - OWEN LIKES COMICS (Part 1/2) · Half the Picture

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  I have been on the record before and said that this is the single greatest comic book ever made.
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  And obviously like depending on the day, you lean differently, but today I'm very much off
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  that opinion. I don't think it is hyperbole to say that this comic changed my life in quite a big
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  way. And means a lot to me personally, we were talking off my curly, I've written a piece
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  for a book that's coming up shortly all about this series. I reached a new level of diving deep
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  into this book that I feel that like I know it inside and out. Every single page, every single
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  detail, every single idea, I feel that no stone was left unturned with that project. And so it's
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  a book that I have a lot of feelings.
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  Hey everyone, I'm Billy and welcome back to Half the Picture. I'm very excited to say that our
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  guest this episode is Owen from the YouTube channel, Owen likes comics, which is one of the biggest
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  and most successful channels on YouTube to talk about comics. And it's certainly one of my favorites
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  and has been for a long time. Owen loved our recent episode of Grant Morrison, who as I say is one
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  of my favorite writers. Also, it turns out is one of Owen's favorite comics writers and him getting
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  in touch can tell me to reach out to him and go, Hey, why don't we talk about some of our favorite
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  comics? So coming up in part one of my conversation with Owen likes comics is our first three of our
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  top five favorite comics of all time. We got into it so for so long that we've actually we're
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  going to do part two coming up, which will be the last two comics of our top five. So but in part
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  one, we're going to be talking about the first three. So without further ado, let's roll on part one
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  of my conversation with Owen likes comics. Enjoy. Hey Owen, how you doing?
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  Hi, thanks so much for having me. I've been really excited to do this ever since we kind of
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  connected about a month ago after your great two-part series with Grant Morrison, which
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  found it's way into my YouTube recommended feed and I just thought was excellent. So ever since then
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  when you reached out and said, let's do something I've been super excited. So I'm glad the days
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  finally here. Oh, that's really nice for you to say, mate, because I've been a fan of your channel
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  for years. I could be, you know, I've been following the, I love the videos that you do. I've been
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  following them for, for ages and it was just so nice to have you when you reached out and just,
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  you know, left that really nice comment on the, on the interview. It was lovely. So I was
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  immediately, my brain was just immediate like, let's get you on. Absolutely. And it's like, I'm not
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  saying that like, for me personally, like having Grant Morrison on my show would be like the peak.
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  It would only be downhill from there. So I don't know if this is your thought process of like,
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  who can we get to let the audience know that it's not going to be on this level? Let's see it
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  let's get some dude who talks about comics in his bedroom. Oh, nonsense, mate. Nonsense. No,
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  this is a genuine pleasure. And I guess to give a sense of what we're going to be talking about.
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  So when we, when we, when I reached out, I kind of, I thought the idea was that we would talk
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  about five comics. Not only I guess are our favorites, but also mean something to us and I guess
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  say a little something about us and, you know, who we are. So I think that was, that was the kind
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  of the high concept pitch, wasn't it? Yeah. So I think kind of like we bonded kind of over on
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  mutual fondness of Grant Morrison book, you know, listening to, to your interview on that podcast
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  and hearing kind of your journey into comics. You know, we're of a similar age. We're from a
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  similar area. A very much felt kind of like, yeah, I can very much recall my own in points and
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  it being quite a similar experience. So kind of tackling not necessarily what we think are the best
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  comics, but the ones that had like the biggest personal impact to us. I thought would make a lot
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  of sense. Like I should just say for viewers and listeners, like we haven't seen each other's
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  lists yet. So we could have taken this in wildly different directions. But for me, it was a case
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  of like here are five books. And I've not ordered them in like preference. I've ordered them
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  in like date. These are the five books that like best sign posts like my journey into not only being
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  a comic reader in a comic fan book, me ending up doing this weird job that I can't explain to
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  extended family members. I kind of know what you mean on that front. Like whenever, like I was,
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  I had to fill in a form recently and it was, you know, occupation, I guess. And I put
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  podcaster and I was like, and that was the first time I'd ever done that. I was it just, it can't,
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  I was just be like, well, that's that's a weird thing. Yeah, you know, a strange phenomenon of
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  trying to explain, especially kind of older people and people that you're not around as much,
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  trying to explain to them that you essentially do a career that 10 years ago didn't exist. Yeah,
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  yeah, it's quite a weird phenomenon. Yeah, because yeah, and also because also you've been doing
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  what you've been doing for a lot for, you know, a while now, you've kind of, I guess you've seen
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  that sort of industry has kind of sort of grown up around you as you've been doing what you're doing,
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  right? Yeah. So I started the channel in around like 2015, 2016 around the time that I went to
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  university, just as like a little side project thing because obviously you're not busy enough when
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  you're doing a, a degree in history. They just give you so much free time. Yeah, it was, and I
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  didn't know what I was doing. Like I couldn't edit. I couldn't, I had no like media or film background.
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  It was just kind of like I like comics. I really got back into reading comics around like 2011 when
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  the new 52 happened. And so I was kind of a couple years like back in in a big way. So it was like,
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  and I didn't have a lot of like friends in real life that were, I had a lot of people that
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  were into superheroes. Like I'd go and watch the MCU films and the dark night with, but I didn't
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  have a lot of friends personally that were like reading comics. So this was kind of like my way of
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  finding that community. And then I've kind of been doing it professionally, quote unquote,
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  sins kind of locked down. That was when it was like, well, there's nothing else to do. I'm just
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  going to really double down on this. And then it's been, I've been doing it full time for just
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  coming up to two and a half years. Amazing. It's amazing because you mentioned, like you said
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  earlier, I think we're we're about the same age, I think. And we're sort of from the same,
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  like we're both from the North. So we're from the geographically, we're kind of from the same
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  place, I guess. And I mean, I'm from Sheffield. And you, do you say you're from sort of near Liverpool?
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  Yeah, I'm from kind of the Liverpool area without without doctoring myself too much.
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  So you got Yorkshire, I guess I once had I got Lancashire on the other side of this call.
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  So, but both polls covered. And you mentioned the new 52 because I remember so clearly,
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  that was I guess me when I was 2011 was that was when I was also really, really getting into comics.
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  And I think like you, I didn't really have too many close friends. I had some, I didn't have
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  too many that were really into comics with me. I mean, I really only had one who I think was really,
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  who would go to the convict shops with me and buy comics. And I remember the new 52 and yeah,
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  and we were you mentioned Grant Morrison. Yeah, I remember when Grant's action comics was coming out
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  alongside Bendis's Mars Morales Ultimate Spider-Man. Like every month you had a new
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  Bendis Ultimate Spider-Man and a new Grant Morrison Superman comic. And it was it was just the best
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  time to be a comic book fan, it felt. I fear that this is just quickly turning to a conversation
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  of us name dropping, but I interviewed Bendis last week for my channel. Yeah, I saw your post.
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  We'll talk about it as we get into because some of his work is very much on my list,
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  but he was one of the first writers that I, because obviously when you start reading comics,
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  it's just like I like Spider-Man, I like Batman, I like Superman, I like the Flash,
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  I'm just going to read whatever those current books are. Yeah. And then after a while you start
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  to realize, oh, I like this writer, I like, let's say Grant Morrison. So I'm not just going to
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  read action comics, I'm going to go and read a book I might not otherwise read because they've
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  written it. And that was very much like Bendis was the first writer like that for me where it was
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  like, I like this series, I'm going to go and find out what other comics this person has written.
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  So that's how I like discovered Daredevil and Alias and a lot of other books.
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  So getting the chance to actually sit down with him and interview him for a video that I'm doing
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  was similar to how you must have felt with Grant was like a real like bucket list moment.
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  So I mean, so on which note then I guess do you want to, to me go into it? Do you want to start?
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  Or should I start? Sure. So I've kind of put mine in a chronological order. I don't know if you
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  want to go out of you want me to just kind of like do a five through one. I guess we could
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  probably start since we were talking about Bendis with Ultimate Spider-Man. Yeah, yeah, go for it.
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  So for those who are watching or listening to this aren't super familiar, I'll give you a
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  little bit of like historical background, which I suppose is my thing. The Ultimate Spider-Man
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  was a kind of reimagining of Peter Parker that came out in 2000. The Ultimate Universe was this
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  initiative that Marvel launched after they come out of bankruptcy to try and like get new people
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  into comics and revitalize their publishing line. So the concept was, well, what if we take all
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  of all like big established characters and reimagine them as if they come into the world today. So it's
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  very, I guess dated is the bad word, but it's very current to the new millennium. So this was a book
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  written by Brian Michael Bendis and primarily drawn by Mark Bagley and then later Sarah Pachelli
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  that retells the story of Peter Parker is if he was a high school kid in the year 2000 with all of
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  the kind of pop culture and fashion and music and trends and problematic language that you associate
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  with that time period. And that was the first comic that I ever like remember buying. I remember going
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  into a news agent like a WH Smith sort of, we're getting very niche British writers here.
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  And just like I must have been like eight and just like surveying the magazines that they had
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  and instead of getting 442 or whatever football magazines I was buying at the time. I just saw
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  this glossy cover and it was like one of the first 10 issues of Ultimate Spider-Man. And I was
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  obviously familiar with Spider-Man with that point. I'd seen the Tobin Maguire movie. I'd seen
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  the 90s cartoon and the weird CGI cartoon that came out in the early 2000s that keeps me up at night.
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  Never read Spider-Man comic. But I see this like super modern glossy digital cover and I'm like
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  I need that. So I, I tested my parents into buying it me. I went home and read it and that was the
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  first time where it was like the way I described it when I spoke to Brian was that book and that
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  experience of reading it changed me from a kid that like superheroes to a kid that read comics.
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  So a lot to answer for.
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  Do you remember which issue it was? Was it the first issue?
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  I don't know if it was the first issue. It was definitely an early issue because it was still in
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  that kind of like Ultimate Green Goblin, the prolonged like six issue origin story. For the life of me
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  you know they were talking like 20 years ago at this point. I can't remember which issue it was,
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  but it was a very early like jumping on point because I then followed. My parents taught me about
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  the news ages and helped me set up a pull list. So whenever the new issues came out they would put
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  one aside for me. That was, that was really like the thing where I was like I buy comics now. This
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  is a thing that I do and bar a couple of like little breaks in between. That has pretty much been
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  ever present throughout my life since. So that book has a huge kind of place as nostalgia for me and
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  it's still probably like when I think of Spider-Man in my head I think of Mark Buckley. I think of
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  the big eyes and the kind of weird oversized head on the body and I've clearly modeled my hair
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  after Ultimate Peter Park hair. Oh my god, tell me about it. In fact, you know just confession,
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  I always tried to get, I can never get my hair to do that because my hair just does whatever it
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  that the hell it wants. But that's amazing to hear and to be honest I could, I could say the exact same
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  thing about Ultimate Spider-Man. I mean I'm not not to jump on the mic too long because I want to hear
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  more about from you about how Ultimate Spider-Man is one of your favorites. But I remember going to
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  these agents and buying, I think it was issue, it was the final issue of the first Dock-Ock storyline
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  of Ultimate Spider-Man. So it's the one where Craven the Hunter come, you know, who's a reality show
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  in the Ultimate Universe is kind of a reality show star who's hunting Spider-Man.
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  Can I almost got like a Steve Irwin vibe about him? It's very, yeah. Yeah, it's a great
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  take. I love the different takes that Ben just did on all of those villains and reinventing them
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  for a modern era. But I remember that issue where he comes on and he just, you know, Spider-Man
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  obviously absolutely trounces him. And then the back half of that issue where Peter goes home and
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  he has to explain to his aunt, you know, who stayed up all night waiting for him like why he's
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  beatwise lay and she, you know, and that was actually I think the thing that really stuck to me was
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  that back half how bendus would spend as much time on, because he was, he's so good with characters
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  and with dialogue and with drama, you know, because obviously I think because he comes from a crime
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  comic background. So those are kind of, I guess, more, maybe a bit more at the forefront in that genre.
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  So he's so good at that that I remember reading that issue and it was just a random
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  I not read any other issue of Ultimate Spider-Man. I didn't know the backstory or the context.
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  I didn't have your amazing video essay on Ultimate Spider-Man to help me then. So it was,
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  I remember reading that I'm thinking this is great. And then not actually reading an
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  other issue till about five years later when the ultimate collection volume one came out which
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  had the first 13 issues and that was when I was right I'm in and this ultimate Spider-Man's where
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  it's at. No, absolutely same. It was it was a really like gateway drug of a book where it's kind of
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  like not only does this make me want more Spider-Man, it makes me want more comics. I was just hooked
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  to me. I just think I was, and I said this when I was talking to Brian, I just think I was the perfect
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  audience for it because I was, I wasn't as old as Peter was in the book, but I was a kid in school
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  that like there was something very relatable about Peter in that book where he just felt like a kid
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  in today's world. It felt very real and you know the whole adage of Marvel being the world outside
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  your window or like something like that at the time felt that was exactly what that saying was about.
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  And yeah, like I read every issue of that all the way up to and that's got to be one of the longest
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  running like mainstream comics. I know. Well, Bendus is like a ground hit for 15 years. Yeah, well
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  Grant has a great expression in Super Gods where he says, Bendus, it's like when Bendus was writing
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  a book, it was like Swan's mating. It was like 10 year runs on his pet books. He would just keep
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  going and how a writer can stay on one book and not lose any grist. It's pretty amazing.
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  And do so much with it as well. Like we talked about with like characters like Craven and Doc Ark.
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  Like it's a really radical reinvention of a lot of big concepts in the Spider-Man lore. Obviously
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  like the familiar stuff still happens. Uncle Ben still gets shot. He gets bit by Spider.
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  Spoiler alert. Words to red. Spoilers for any of the chocolate.
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  25 year old comic or the basic premise of Spider-Man. But things that I remember reading like the
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  Venom saga for the first time and that's because in that story it's not an alien symbiote. It's
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  something that Pete is dead who is a scientist. Great. It's like this cure for cancer that gets
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  weaponized and him and Eddie Rock have to try and find it is essentially like the birthright and
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  it all goes horribly wrong. Yeah. The clone target is a huge one of my favorite story arcs
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  that entire run which very famous is one of the most like derided and controversial stories
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  in the main Spider-Man series. Bendis and Bagley take and make a real highlight of that run
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  even having the audacity to kill Peter Parker off eventually. Yeah, I wish I remember that happening
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  and it was huge. It hit the headlines I remember every time they kill off one of these major
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  characters like Superman or Batman. But it always you know the tabloids always get hold of it.
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  Like what the hell's going on? But I remember that. But having both the creative freedom from Marvel
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  and also just the audacity and the goal as a writer to kill Peter off and introduce a new protagonist
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  that has no kind of backstory or companion in the main Marvel universe a whole original character
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  in Miles Morales who now is probably in terms of like mainstream awareness probably the most
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  successful new character since like Harley Quinn in the 90s. Absolutely. I mean it is crazy how
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  Miles has become I don't know if he's supplanted if he's supplanted Peter but like he is you know
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  what we've into the Spider-Verse and and it's so funny you think about it because like I said like
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  we said I think at the start like I remember when like Ultimate Spider-Man Miles Morales was coming out
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  like issue one hit the stands and he was and it was just this you know this new comic that bendis
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  and Shelley were doing and it was like and he was just this new character and now he's become this
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  kind of he's become iconic which is which is great you know it's fantastic. And obviously like both
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  comic audiences and general movie going or just casual audiences don't always accept these
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  kind of legacy characters coming in whether it's characters like Sam Wilson we're coming
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  Captain America or like when Dick Grayson became Batman at the end of Grant's run when when
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  how Jordan was was turned into a villain and how Rainer was introduced or. Totally. There's always
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  a kind of divisive aspect to that because people love these familiar characters and but it's so
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  interesting how even in like a big mainstream sense the world has kind of embraced Miles with
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  open arms as the absolute least a worthy equal to Peter Parker is Spider-Man like he has his own
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  movie series and his own games and like my nan knows who Miles Morales is. My nan doesn't know who
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  Kyle Rainer is. She knows who Wally West is. Well I mean you know you got to get. I mean she's
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  missing out. I got to I got to slip of the mark wave on it. I was going to you got to get on
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  the night east stuff mate. You got to do it. But it's so cool that Bendis would kind of do this and
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  it's this 15 year saga. The only thing I think compares in a modern sense is maybe something like
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  invincible which also ran for such a long long time but I guess the difference is that like
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  invincible isn't based on anything Kirkman can just kind of do whatever and whatever twists and turns
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  he comes up with. Bendis still has to follow the basic boundaries of what Spider-Man is and what
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  readers have expected Spider-Man to be for the last 50 years at that point. But the journey takes
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  one in that series is incredible. Mark Bagley's art is so like seared into my brain iconic and even
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  when Pichelli takes over. No need does do they give the book a really unique feel because obviously
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  he's switching protagonists. But the art in that is also stunning as well. It's some of the best
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  looking comics that Marvel putting out and for me personally like I said it was it was the book
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  that got me into comic shops regularly. Bendis became the first writer that it was like I like this
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  guy so that convinced me to then go and pick up Daredevil and that made me a fan of that character.
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  I remember reading people always laugh at this. My first introduction to the Avengers was disassembled.
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  Oh really? Because I saw that Bendis was taken over the Avengers and it was like well I like
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  Bendis. I don't really know much about the Avengers so I'm going to dive in and the first time I see
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  them is all this horrible stuff happening. But then when them and David Finch launched new Avengers
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  that was my that was my jam. That's another book that very easily could have been on this list.
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  Going back towards Spider-Man. I mean did I meant to ask did you ever play the PlayStation 2
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  video game? Oh of course I did. I have so much nostalgia for that game. Same. That was all
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  that to be honest that cut game and that issue that I mentioned where I just sort of picked it
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  up off the stands and was like what is this? Those are my two real I should have said that
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  those would have my two real entry points into the ultimate Marvel universe and into ultimate
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  Spider-Man because you know and I still think it's quite unique in video games. I mean we talk
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  about comics but touching on video games like like for a video game to replicate so faithfully
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  with so much fidelity and a comic book artist style you might bag these visual style which as we
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  say I think we both love it. It's so appealing and it's so it's real it has realism but it's also
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  exaggerated. It has like you say Spider-Man's you know it's got the massive eyes and it's very
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  expressive. It's like to be able to sort of reproduce that in like the cell shading animation on
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  in a video game and then obviously Ben this is writing the story and you get like a follow-up to
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  the Venom saga which is so great which you mentioned and I just and the game itself is so much fun.
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  I remember playing that till you know to the nth degree it was just I played it every day for
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  ages it was just so good. Like I've never been I would never classify myself as a gamer I own a
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  console but I wouldn't I'm not up to 3 a.m. playing the card online with people. I still don't
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  fully know what Fortnite is. I don't know either. It tips me over to like the millennial side
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  over the Gen Z side. I think we're kind of like on the precipice and it's like the concept of playing
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  Fortnite is what tips me over to the millennial side where I'm like I don't understand what this is
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  why is John work here but yeah like the I have a lot on style there's like three or four video
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  games I have a lot of childhood nostalgia for and two of them are Grand Theft Auto Vice City in
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  Simpson City in Ron. Of course two of them are Spider-Man 2. They're the pizza song is still
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  burning. Oh my god and ultimate Spider-Man like they were I remember buying the ultimate Spider-Man
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  game at game station. That's another British nostalgia throwback for you. Days gone by yeah I
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  mean I all four of those games you mentioned were the same for me with the exception of Vice City
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  for me it was always San Andreas but but anyway we're going down video games there but like yeah
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  no I have the exact same thing and I still think ultimate Spider-Man that game Bendis did such a good
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  job his quality control for me is so good because like he would all you know he's I can't think of
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  many Bendis maybe maybe you can but I can't think of too many Bendis comics that for me I don't
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  read and I think always he's dropped the ball here like he's really he has his craft down and I
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  think that game he did yeah there's there's obviously there's definitely Bendis books that I like
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  more than others and I think any writer bats a thousand like oh and not the biggest fat and he's
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  been a while since I've read it so don't hold me to this but I'm not like the biggest love for
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  a bendis is Superman I haven't actually read them like the the later Marvel stuff but like when
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  Bendis hits especially in that era in like the 2000s I don't think there's any one better on
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  on the day like ultimate Spider-Man new Avengers Daredevil even I don't know if you read it they did
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  a Batman book for Walmart about five or six years ago back when universe with Nick Derrington
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  no never so it was this initiative DC did with Walmart where they produced two exclusive comics
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  a Batman a Superman one and they got the writers of the main Batman a Superman title to swap books
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  so Tom King who was writing Batman went and did a book called Superman Up in the Sky with I think
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  Andy Hubert which is quite good as well and then Bendis and Nick Derrington who who did Gerard
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  Way's Doom Patrol went and did this Batman story called Batman Universe and it's great and
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  there's someone who's a big lover of Bendis is Daredevil I thought I had an idea of what a Bendis
• 21:51
  Batman book would be like and it's not that at all it's a like throwback to the silver age Adam
• 21:58
  Westy the the premise of the book is the riddler steals a Fabrige egg that can travel through time
• 22:03
  in space and Batman has to go to the old west and he has to go to Thanagar and he has to go to
• 22:08
  Dinosaur Island to try and retrieve it and all kind of the wacky high jinx he gets up to on the
• 22:14
  Y it's to my knowledge I think it's one of the only times Bendis ever wrote Batman but it is
• 22:19
  so much fun and so unexpected given how much of Bendis's work comes from crime fiction and
• 22:24
  comes from a lot of dark stories like alias powers powers Daredevil are quite dark books
• 22:30
  so you would think that his Batman will be kind of like Frank Milico didn't actually it's a lot
• 22:34
  more like Moltweisinger kind of 50 60s comics oh amazing I need to shut that out I had no idea
• 22:40
  that he'd written Batman so I can I can first when it comes to comics of late at the last
• 22:44
  few years I've been in and out of the loop a little bit so when it comes to following like
• 22:48
  apart with the exception I think maybe of grand I think with some of those writers I've been
• 22:52
  out of the loop so I'll have to check that out but it's a bit of a hidden gem I think because it
• 22:56
  was this Walmart exclusive series I get later got like repackaged and just sold as a trade
• 23:02
  but because it was kind of released in this kind of odd way a lot of people kind of missed it
• 23:07
  but both those books both Batman universe and Superman open the sky are both really really solid
• 23:12
  stories I'd happily give them to anyone cool oh I'll check them out speaking of Batman do you
• 23:18
  want to hear my my first my first picks cool so actually I've got I've actually got my picks here
• 23:23
  with with me I thought I'd bring them in and my first one I guess because what you just said
• 23:27
  there about Ultimate Spider-Man be meaning a lot to you I think I'll go for the heart this this
• 23:30
  one this one this is this is this is the one that means the most to me is Grant Morrison's Batman
• 23:36
  Arkham Asylum which is probably my favorite comic actually I said that on the Grant Morrison
• 23:42
  interview I said it was I told them it was my favorite everything you've just said there
• 23:46
  Ultimate Spider-Man as a comic which kind of got you into not you took you from superheroes into
• 23:51
  the actual buying comics and becoming a fan of the comics medium as opposed to you know just the
• 23:56
  characters that that was totally the case with with me with reading Arkham Asylum for the first
• 24:00
  time because I had no reference point for it like I because you did that great video essay on
• 24:04
  on Arkham Asylum and you talk about it so well like the the elliptical side of it the fact that
• 24:09
  it's kind of you know it's an art house superhero comic and I just sort of picked this up off
• 24:14
  the shelves of Waterstones I remember going to my local Waterstones in a still there it's in
• 24:18
  orchard square in Sheffield and finding this comic and opening up and kind of falling into it
• 24:23
  kind of falling that kind of almost in a way kind of appropriately falling down the rabbit hole
• 24:27
  with it because there's so much Lewis Carroll and Allison Wonderland in Arkham Asylum but like
• 24:31
  I genuinely hadn't seen anything like Dave McKeen's art with the with the story and you know
• 24:37
  the the painted style and everything I was I and it was it was it was so dark but also it was
• 24:42
  funny it's lean it has like no fat on it whatsoever like when I was thinking about my comics
• 24:48
  in prep for this this chat I was thinking about Arkham Asylum and how for a comic that is so much
• 24:54
  sort of is so much remembered for the imagery and the atmosphere like I don't think people talking
• 24:58
  about the structure of it and I don't think people talking about grand as a structural writer
• 25:04
  generally I think people sort of give them a lot of credit right as rightfully so for the ideas
• 25:10
  that they put across in their comics and the imagery and the and the humour but I think they're
• 25:15
  so they have their crap when it comes to just crafting a story you know therefore but this happens
• 25:20
  and keeping it tight and well paced it's one of their greatest attributes I think and and with
• 25:26
  Arkham Asylum you can for like say for a comic that is so dreamlike it's surprising how how tight
• 25:31
  it is like there's no I can't think of any sequences in it which of which drag the pace down of it
• 25:36
  which which sort of which pad it which are padding it's just so beautifully realised and what's
• 25:41
  interesting it like say not to sort of name drop grant too much but I guess talking to
• 25:46
  Grant about that when we had them on the pod how much Grant said that was down today if Dave McKeen
• 25:50
  and how Dave really sort of took the script that they had written and just ran with it and sort of
• 25:55
  and expanded it to 120 pages basically well that's always been what's so interesting to me about
• 26:00
  that statement so I fully agree with everything he said I think Arkham Asylum is a tremendous comic
• 26:04
  the craftsmanship is masterful is the way I describe it both from from Grant and McKeen
• 26:08
  and to think that this was one of if not the first things Grant ever wrote for DC
• 26:13
  is mental yeah totally and you can feel this this new writer off essentially off the street
• 26:18
  this is the debut is crazy but yeah like I remember reading interviews for three years ago
• 26:24
  where Grant talks about how they when they were coming up with the concept they originally wanted
• 26:30
  someone like like a Dave Gibbons to draw it yeah like a Brian Bolland or a Gary Leach yeah
• 26:36
  or like Brian Bolland or kind of want the art to be played a bit more straight so that all of the
• 26:42
  kind of weird ethereal subtext can just come through the writing I think kind of Grant envisaged
• 26:48
  it something more akin to a book like The Killing Joke but I think for me as much as I think Grant
• 26:53
  structure and themes and ideas in the book how it not only kind of infuses Lewis Carroll but also
• 26:59
  there's a lot of tarot in the series as well yeah love all the stuff we two face especially the
• 27:03
  ending I think that's incredible but for me the the thing that makes that comic is Dave McKeen's
• 27:08
  artwork like I think that like a Brian Bolland just to use his name for example had drawn the book
• 27:14
  I something it would be great because Brian Bolland's one of the best Batman artists of all time
• 27:18
  and Killing Joke does have that sense of like the slow loss of realism as the book progresses and
• 27:24
  gets a little bit more kind of dream like an ethereal but not to the extent that McKeen does hear
• 27:29
  where it is like the book gets literally hard to read yeah things like the jokers thought bubbles
• 27:35
  are just kind of like carved in blood into the page but it's just it's it's such an experience
• 27:40
  it's a book that I think everyone should read because you'll never really read a comic that looks
• 27:45
  and feels quite like it it really does capture that sense of like what you said of like going down
• 27:50
  the rabbit hole of like because the whole idea with the book is Batman has to go into Arkham Asylum
• 27:55
  to find some hostages and the deeper he goes the more his grip on reality starts to weigh
• 28:01
  and the book does such an amazing job of conveying that where you don't know what's real and what is
• 28:06
  and you know the Joker is kind of depicted as this like almost like phantom this very like the
• 28:12
  spiritual being it's no wonder reading this book that Grant became the writer that they did that
• 28:19
  kind of became like the writer at DC for the next 30 years because if some like 20 30-year-old
• 28:25
  person showed up at my office and was like here's my first script I would be giving them everything
• 28:32
  it's it's it's amazing it's it's an iconic series I do feel for anyone that picked it up because
• 28:37
  they like the Arkham games and were like what is this well this is this is interesting I mean
• 28:43
  linking this back in a way almost talk about Spider-Man and the video game of that they talk about
• 28:47
  games adaptions of comics because I think it's fair to say as you say like the Arkham Asylum
• 28:52
  video game which was obviously huge that was a huge and that was a huge video game for me as well
• 28:55
  I loved that game growing up and my the reason I went to the waterstones and picked this off the
• 29:00
  stands was because I had I think the night before I had been playing on my brother's Xbox 360
• 29:07
  and I remember there was downloaded onto the Xbox was the Arkham Asylum demo so the first like 10
• 29:13
  minutes of the game or something and I was not really like say out a confession like I wasn't really
• 29:17
  a DC or a Batman guy until I read this Arkham Asylum because before that it was Marvel all the way
• 29:23
  I was a Marvel boy straight through you know the movies and Spider-Man movies and the Fantastic Four
• 29:28
  and the X-Men and and I'll also I think maybe people don't remember this maybe but like when we
• 29:34
  were growing up the only comments I remember being available to easily in the news agents were Marvel
• 29:38
  comics like the Penini sort of Spider-Man or the Penini sort of plastic four comics. Marvel's always
• 29:43
  had quite a big distribution presence here because of like the Penini relationship and that would
• 29:48
  track I've never looked into it myself but when I think of the books that got me into reading comics
• 29:52
  and we talked about Ultimate Spider-Man a lot of them were Marvel like I don't think I got into
• 29:56
  DC until a few years later so that probably would explain why. Yeah I mean the only sort of connection
• 30:01
  I had to DC was I'd watch Batman Returns when I was about three years old way too young by the way
• 30:07
  but that's also actually incidentally I kind of have a certain kinship I feel there's a kinship
• 30:11
  between Arkham Asylum and Batman Returns in a couple of ways like there's a similar psychological
• 30:16
  sort of surreal takes on the characters but I love Batman Returns but I remember that was my
• 30:21
  only connection so when I played this demo and I sort of I didn't know about Mark Hamill's Joker I
• 30:25
  didn't know about Kevin Conroy's Batman the I you know obviously iconic and when the Joker sort of
• 30:30
  gets loose in that first 10 minutes of that game and is sort of like welcome to the Mad House
• 30:34
  all this stuff and a switch I can only describe it like a switch sort of went off in my head
• 30:38
  and I was like oh I get it I get what this is about I get what Batman's about I get what
• 30:43
  Joker's about I get what DC is about what the appeal is the fact that this is not you know
• 30:47
  like you said the like you said about Marvel the adage was like the world outside your window
• 30:51
  like DC DC has gone there as well but like I think DC and I think Grant will say as well the appeal
• 30:57
  with DC is that it's not the world outside your window it's something else it's a whole other world
• 31:01
  and in the case of Batman it's you're in you know you're in Arkham Asylum you're in the Mad House
• 31:06
  and it was like and like you know where reason is kind of flipped on its head and I remember playing
• 31:10
  that the first 10 minutes of that game and being like no I need this game amazing but I want to
• 31:15
  I want to go down the rabbit hole I want to go and find and I think I that's when I went to
• 31:19
  like say the shop and found the first Arkham Asylum comic which I found and there are a few
• 31:23
  but this is obviously the one the Book of Genesis as far as sort of like you know Arkham Asylum goes
• 31:28
  and I picked it up and read it and it got me into into comics seriously it was like beyond that
• 31:32
  right I want to open the doors open the floodgates let's go you know and also just another thing
• 31:37
  to add with Arkham Asylum is like looking at it in the area that it came out like it's a real like
• 31:42
  housing period for Batman comics at the late 80s into the 90s because you've got you know this
• 31:48
  is coming straight off the heels of things like Batman year one the Dark Knight returns death in
• 31:53
  the family and the cult and then you've got stories like a lonely place of dying nightfall no man's
• 31:59
  land it's a real like the Morrison's other Batman book of that era Troika like this is a real
• 32:04
  era of just like banger after banger Batman comics yeah killing joke as well yeah yeah the killing
• 32:10
  joke so Arkham kind of fits and there's a lot of huge writers you know we're talking about Frank
• 32:15
  Miller Alan Moore Jim Stalin Denny and Neil like a real who's who of comics of the 80s and 90s
• 32:21
  the fact that this was essentially Morrison's debut especially kind of a mainstream level they
• 32:26
  had quite immediately fit alongside all of those kind of who's who names of some of the best writers
• 32:31
  of their era totally and you can feel that I think when you read the comment you can feel that it's
• 32:35
  like been worked on for years like Grant talks about how Arkham like Animal Man and Arkham were
• 32:40
  sort of pitched at the same time I think in the same meeting to Karen Berger the editor of DC
• 32:44
  comics at the time one of the editors and Animal Man was kind of extemporized on the train down to
• 32:49
  the meeting but Arkham Salam he had been working on for like years and so you can feel that when
• 32:53
  you read the comic it has so much so much work has gone into it so much detail and so much thoughts
• 32:58
  and then and not even before you get to the artwork which obviously Day McKeen is just you know
• 33:03
  and it's interesting with Day McKeen because he talks about it as being like because because
• 33:06
  what you mentioned the lettering and being hard to read especially with which I would agree with
• 33:09
  especially with the Joker and and I think McKeen would would agree with you because he I think
• 33:14
  when he did when he did the most recent edition of Arkham Salam he went back and did the lettering
• 33:19
  like he wanted to do it originally which was sort of like more straight blood red it wasn't like
• 33:23
  the white sort of info it was like this is so it's a little bit more legible I don't think
• 33:28
  there really are any of a Batman comics or sort of superhero comics well there are a couple I
• 33:32
  think I can think of like a lecturer assassin or you know that kind of thing which again goes down
• 33:36
  a very sort of it kind of an art house route and I think it is a shame because I would love to see
• 33:42
  like what will be an art house take on Superman I mean I don't think it will look anything like
• 33:46
  Arkham Salam but what would that be I mean I don't know if you've you've sort of felt like
• 33:49
  you've sort of seen that question I'm trying to think of some books that have that similar
• 33:54
  feeling I think electro assassins a really good poll the closest comparison I can think of is maybe
• 33:58
  like Jay Lee does a lot of really kind of abstract work in the late 90s things like his in humans
• 34:04
  work with Paul Jenkins the century kind of plays with that a little bit obviously not to the same
• 34:09
  extent but it has that kind of gothic kind of ethereal feel to it but yeah this is I would love it
• 34:15
  it's kind of series where DC take not just do Arkham asylum book for Superman but take that
• 34:20
  approach of like deconstruction in a much more surrealist and less like realism sense and apply it
• 34:27
  to different characters like could you imagine a green lantern book in that way to and the things
• 34:31
  you could play with like that would be yeah and it's and with green lantern it's like that's it's
• 34:36
  baked into the DNA of the characters whole you know his abilities like you know he can imagine
• 34:40
  anything he can imagine with the ring you can wheel into existence so the possibilities would be
• 34:44
  would be endless yes so that's that's my I guess my first my first choice do you want to
• 34:48
  uh here I'm really intrigued to see at which point in this in this show we find a book that we
• 34:54
  disagree on because I could quite easily put that on my list to to be around the good I set myself
• 34:59
  a rule as well okay because I was really scared that this was going to be five Morrison books because
• 35:04
  Grant is my my favorite writer and so my top five all have to be by different people same same
• 35:12
  I have not repeated so there's no more bendis books there will be a Morrison book there will be a
• 35:16
  Hickman book but all only be one it's hard to pick my favorite of each because otherwise I could have
• 35:22
  given you a top five bendis top five Grant at top five Hickman so me too so to kind of keep going
• 35:27
  chronologically we're gonna jump to 2004 now I didn't read this when it came out I read this maybe
• 35:32
  around like thousand eight or thousand nine I think I'd have to check when the movie came out but I
• 35:37
  think it was a couple years after that I definitely read the comic before I watched the movie although
• 35:41
  this is an out continuity story I think if I wanted to show someone what DC is about
• 35:46
  similar to what you were talking about with Arkham to get an immediate feel of what the tone of DC is
• 35:51
  and what separates it for Marvel this would probably be the comic I would give them and in fact
• 35:55
  I have given this to friends and to people that are kind of like I want to watch James gun superman
• 36:00
  I want to like get into this new DC universe crash course man all the characters this is the book
• 36:06
  since 2004 it's written and drawn by the late great Darwin Cook it's the new frontier
• 36:11
  oh I actually haven't read this one I I love this book so much it is there's something so
• 36:19
  classic about Darwin Cook's writing so to kind of for anyone that's not read it or super
• 36:23
  familiar with it that the basic premise is it is a retelling of the golden and silver age of DC comics
• 36:30
  so it starts at the end of the second world war when essentially the justice society have been
• 36:35
  disbanded and superheroes are outlawed so certain heroes like superman and one woman are kind
• 36:41
  of like government sanctioned and Batman who's very much in like his bobcat and billfinger 1930s
• 36:47
  Wigalia is kind of this urban myth this underground figure and it the book is primarily it's it's
• 36:53
  taken from a quote from President John F Kennedy and it's very much about the the rise of DC in
• 37:00
  the silver age so like 1956 to 1961 and it's it's kind of framed alongside US history in that
• 37:07
  period kind of leading up to things like the Cuban Miss Alcrisis and the the start of the Cold War
• 37:13
  but it tells the introduction of three characters of Hal Jordan, Green Lantern, Barry Allen the Flash
• 37:19
  and Martian Manhunter and the book kind of culminates with the formation of the Justice League and
• 37:25
  Batman going into his more silver agey version with and you get the introduction of Robin and
• 37:30
  the more kind of Adam West style Batman and it's just a really beautiful tribute to the history
• 37:35
  of DC like Cook is such a genius and such a brilliant writer there's so many details I didn't
• 37:39
  realize until like the third or fourth time I'd read it that the characters are all introduced
• 37:44
  in the order in which they were created every like recognizable superhero in that book
• 37:50
  debuts in terms of like sequence in order in publication history it's so meticulous and it's
• 37:56
  such like a great like I said even though it's a book that's not in continuity it's set in the
• 38:00
  1950s and 60s and it's very much like a reimagining of DC is if it happened in that era
• 38:06
  tonally stylistically thematically it is quintessentially DC to me in a way that I think the only
• 38:12
  comparisons are a book that we'll talk about shortly and something like Kingdom Come by Mark Wade
• 38:17
  and Alex Ross and I often think of this and Kingdom Cummins companion pieces to each other
• 38:22
  Kingdom Cummins this kind of like dark warning of the future it's Wade basically writing about
• 38:27
  things like spawn and the image revolution there's much more darker trend that superheroes are
• 38:31
  going in and feeling a little bit concerned about the loss of kind of the innocence of the silver age
• 38:37
  and kind of doing an ode to that whereas Cook's is more of like an nostalgic throwback to probably his
• 38:42
  era of comics I would imagine it's a beautiful book it's I was never the biggest Hal Jordan fan
• 38:48
  and still them not really but the way drawing Cook writes Hal is probably my favorite version
• 38:54
  that character ever I love him in this book and he gets a great moment towards the end which I
• 38:59
  weren't spoiled because I want you to go and read it and then a few years later they turned
• 39:03
  into an animated movie that was written by another late great icon of comics Dwayne McDuffet as far
• 39:08
  as like an animated movie goes it's a pretty faithful translation of the comic and I'd
• 39:13
  happily recommend either but the book itself was a really massive thing for me discovering it was
• 39:19
  another one that I just like found in a waterstones with W.H. Smith and was like this looks cool
• 39:23
  and that's part of the joy isn't it just going into a shop oh this looks nice I'll pull this out
• 39:27
  you know just kind of taking a random book upon a whim and it blowing your brain is is a really
• 39:32
  important thing I think but yeah I think it's it's if anyone's not read it please do it's an
• 39:37
  absolute masterpiece and Doryn Cook is is a legend of comics and yet someone at our ice still
• 39:42
  think doesn't get the acclaim he deserves like this book his his catwoman serves with a brew
• 39:47
  baker's amazing Doryn Cook made the intro to Batman Beyond like that entire animated sequence wow
• 39:53
  he storyboard and illustrated and that is a thing that is like burning to my brain from youth
• 39:59
  so a real legend of the comics industry and this is his kind of like love letter to the comics that
• 40:04
  he grew up on and it's a for me it's everything that makes me love the DC universe to still into one
• 40:09
  graphic novel amazing I'll be honest I mean because you're just hearing you talk about it and I'll
• 40:14
  be honest I had heard only heard of the new frontier like hands up I actually haven't read I don't
• 40:18
  think I've read more than one or two if you know if any down cook comics which much to my sort of
• 40:24
  shame and like I know of his name I know of his reputation I know of his his artwork obviously I've
• 40:29
  seen it and it's and it's beautiful and I mean to be right in my sort of awareness like the
• 40:35
  most I was sort of aware of him was when it was sort of the closest it came to sort of what I
• 40:39
  was reading was when before watchmen was coming out and he obviously did the minute man prequel
• 40:45
  and what's interesting what's very telling about that is that obviously we I mean we haven't
• 40:49
  mentioned we've only touched on Alan more very briefly and I think we'll and I'll be bringing him
• 40:53
  up because he's on my list but he went obviously before watchmen was coming out and he was I think
• 40:59
  he was asked his opinion on it and of course his opinion was I don't I don't want anything to do
• 41:04
  with it I don't care for it I don't really but I think one of the few things he said that was
• 41:09
  positive was Darwin Cook's doing a book I think even Alan even more was like no okay Darwin Cook's
• 41:14
  great like you know like and he's doing a book I'm sure it's I'm sure that's going to look amazing
• 41:18
  I'm sure it's going to be interesting but like other than that like I'm not interested I mean I
• 41:21
  could be wrong I don't quote me on that but I think that sounds very yeah I can visualise him saying
• 41:27
  that yeah so the fact that someone who is very much distance himself from comics especially kind of
• 41:33
  big two comics especially watchmen and you know get it's rightfully in my opinion very quickly when
• 41:39
  people keep asking him about watchmen so the fact that even he will say Darwin Cook though
• 41:45
  Alan really speaks to not only how much he was respected in the industry but also just
• 41:50
  what an incredible writer and artist that Cook was I mentioned he animated the intro to Batman
• 41:57
  Beyond I think he also works on like Superman the animated series and the new Batman Avengers he
• 42:03
  was one of like the go-to artists on those and then he kind of transitioned into comics in the
• 42:08
  new millennium so like he did a he did a one-shot book called Batman Ego which is tremendous he drew
• 42:14
  a run on catwoman with that brew maker and then he did the new frontier in the mid 2000s and then
• 42:21
  obviously like before watchmen did a few other things after that yeah an incredible writer and artist
• 42:27
  and that's it isn't it it's like it's the writer and artist thing it's like Frank Miller said at one
• 42:31
  point it's like you know it's one doing a comic it's one job you know you write it and you draw
• 42:35
  it I mean obviously that's not the case you know obviously like there's like Grant is you know
• 42:38
  does draw a lot of their comics like in thumbnail form but like you know it is still a division of
• 42:42
  labor but like when you've got a talent like Will Eisner or Frank Miller or or Kirby or all
• 42:48
  like by sounds but yeah Darwin Cook who can just who's just a storyteller like in comic book for
• 42:53
  you can tell stories in this medium from the you know through and through and can just put it on
• 42:57
  the page can write it draw it it's really it's something else and it does lend a certain
• 43:01
  something to the the idea I guess the oturferee in comics which is obviously not it's more of a
• 43:05
  film thing but like in comics like if you're writing and drawing your comics it's pure uncut it's
• 43:10
  who you are yeah I always have a lot of respect for people that are able to do it all and obviously
• 43:14
  like comics is such a collaborative medium in its concept but for people like Darwin Cook people
• 43:20
  like Frank Miller that can write that can draw that can letter that can ink there's something very
• 43:25
  also probably it's the right word there's something very personal real labor of love of a book
• 43:29
  that one person is really kind of slaved over and crafted and I think the new frontier
• 43:34
  is a perfect distillation of that like it's a gorgeous book to look at it's incredibly well written
• 43:40
  the soul changes in Cook's art style when it goes from golden to silver age is very small details
• 43:46
  but very very clever and there's so much of it that just shows that this is a real scholar of
• 43:50
  DC history and of comics history and it's a real like tribute to that era of storytelling it was
• 43:57
  one of the first books I put on this list and I yeah I could talk about that book for an hour
• 44:01
  itself okay well well I have interest though because you said like these all these five comics all
• 44:06
  say something about you and and they mean a lot to you like what what is it I guess specifically
• 44:11
  about the new frontier that like means that says that about you and that means that much to you
• 44:15
  I think for me like so ultimately bad man was the thing that got means comics and base tension got
• 44:19
  mean to Marvel comics I think I'd read a few DC books like I think I'd read Horsh when that came
• 44:25
  out oh yeah and I probably tried to dabble in Grant's Batman and it was a bit I don't think I was
• 44:30
  quite ready for it yet I think me trying to read like Batman RIP when I'm like 13 is probably
• 44:35
  did not make a conducive experience but this is a book that let's some of it's all using with
• 44:41
  Arkham like I think if you read the new frontier as someone that doesn't have a huge familiarity with
• 44:46
  DC outside of just kind of general cultural as Moses you will get why this universe is so important
• 44:53
  and significant and so beloved you will understand why people love not just Batman and Superman but
• 44:58
  the flash Green Lantern Aquaman Martian Manor Hunter Wonder Woman all even a lot more obscure and
• 45:03
  like B level characters and like Sergeant Rock and the Howling Commandos have a incorrect like my
• 45:09
  favorite part of the story involves them in the first issue and yeah it's it's it's a book that
• 45:15
  just like for me it was like a light bulb moment of like I get DC now I fully understand why
• 45:21
  people love DC just as much you've not more than Marvel for certain people that would be why I
• 45:27
  would classify it is it's like a real gateway book into I'm a DC reader now I want to follow not
• 45:33
  only just the heavy hitters but I want to discover what the flash is up to Green Lantern's up to
• 45:38
  amazing well so it is way quite similar than to Mike's Prince of Arkham Asylum it being like a
• 45:41
  gateway into DC it was like this is like what kicked the door and what's interesting about that is
• 45:47
  tonally stylistically and visually you couldn't get two more different books no no I guess
• 45:52
  but yeah they both are great at like distilling what DC is despite doing it radically different ways
• 45:58
  totally amazing well no I tell you what you it's jump right to top my to buy less that comment you've
• 46:03
  you've sold me on it I really really want to check it out now so thanks for thanks for talking
• 46:07
  about it so eloquently because I can say you've you've made me really curious to check it out so
• 46:11
  that's you two down for you so now my onto my second one right and on your number four great so
• 46:16
  to be honest I'm gonna I'm gonna take a leaf out of your book and do them in publication order now
• 46:20
  I'm gonna jump to like the the earliest because Arkham Asylum I guess we were it's sort of we'll
• 46:25
  cheat with that one but like my sort of number four pick then going chronologically is Dr Stanley
• 46:31
  and Steve Ditko's Dr Strange a nameless land a timeless time which is which is the UK publication
• 46:37
  I think of this I mean what where to start really I mean it's like it's because because in some ways
• 46:42
  you know it couldn't be more different to the comics we've just talked about so Arkham Asylum
• 46:46
  in the sense that you know this is very you know it's classic 60s Marvel it's classic sort of Ditko
• 46:52
  at that time I mean for me it kind of begins and ends with Ditko for me with this comic I mean
• 46:57
  Stanley's voice Stanley was obviously incredibly important part of Marvel in the 60s and
• 47:02
  incredibly important part of comics history and the comics industry as this icon as this sort of
• 47:07
  face of Marvel but in terms of the guts of the comics for me it was all about Jack Kirby and Steve
• 47:14
  Ditko the artist also the plotters of a lot of those comics as I'm sure you're aware like you know
• 47:19
  they were the whole Marvel method so this means a lot to me because it's well on a personal level
• 47:26
  because like I say Ditko was it was and still is a hugely important artist to me the thing I
• 47:31
  just love about this is that I guess in the way um I don't know if this is me going out on a
• 47:36
  limb by saying this but I think of this this particular run on Doctor Strange which is the uh
• 47:40
  the eternity saga the the famous Steve Ditko stories I mean do you say are you familiar with these
• 47:45
  Owen have you read these so obviously like Steve Ditko is an iconic artist he is I'm a little
• 47:51
  bit more Kirby minded I suppose like he's very much probably the most important artist in my
• 47:57
  mind in comics but Steve Ditko is very much up there alongside him and let you talk about
• 48:02
  well these books are labeled Stanley and Steve Ditko or Stanley and Jack Kirby because of the
• 48:07
  nature of how they were made the artist has a really like authoritative intent like the reason why I
• 48:13
  love that kind of 102 issue run Lee and Kirby did on Fantastic Four is because it's like a
• 48:19
  not to diminish the work that Lee does on it I think people can fall into trap on both camps to
• 48:24
  talk about one over the other I think Lee really makes that book work in a lot of ways but
• 48:29
  conceptually and thematically stylistically the Fantastic Four is a real Jack Kirby
• 48:34
  product it's a real love letter to Kirby's love of sci-fi and the character the characters all
• 48:40
  reflect him in his own life and experiences in different ways and I think the same is true for
• 48:44
  Dr. Strange with Steve Ditko as well it's a real like personal project for him it infuses a lot
• 48:50
  of his own interests and beliefs and ideas into what becomes a very early time a very unique
• 48:57
  and abstract superhero book and you know Lee kind of grounds that with kind of the trademark
• 49:02
  Stanley witty dialogue that makes high concept stuff that people like Kirby and Ditko would like
• 49:08
  to throw into comics a little bit more easily digestible so yeah like I've definitely read
• 49:13
  the bulk of the original Dr. Strange run I don't know if enough that I could have picked out like
• 49:17
  a particular run of issues or story arcs and so maybe this is one that I might kind of take
• 49:23
  note off and go back and read myself but to talk about like the runners are whole like yeah it's
• 49:28
  a massive because obviously 60s Marvel so many iconic books are coming out Lee and Kirby's
• 49:33
  collaboration is so iconic and when you think of Ditko and Lee I imagine a lot of people's first
• 49:38
  thought is to go to Spider-Man of course which are like the original one on Spider-Man is
• 49:43
  is terrific as well but I think maybe Dr. Strange doesn't get the the notoriety it deserves it
• 49:49
  there isn't nothing like this when this one was coming out this is such a unique series and
• 49:54
  you know we talk stuff like Arkham Asylum books that get a little bit more spiritual and high concepts
• 49:59
  and fantastical and less like grounded and realistic I don't know if you get that without what
• 50:04
  Ditko is doing on Dr. Strange yeah and I'm glad you brought it up because it's kind of a
• 50:08
  despite how well-known Dr. Strange is but like this is a little bit of a deep cut I suppose
• 50:14
  I suppose so yeah I mean it's funny because you mentioned Ditko Spider-Man I mean to be honest
• 50:18
  Ditko Spider-Man could because just as easily have been in this top five for me honestly I mean I know
• 50:22
  I feel like when you talk about sort of classic some classic silver age comics with maybe
• 50:26
  some readers or some fans or even like people who aren't fans of those comics you wonder question
• 50:30
  is like do they hold up can you read them with like we've had so many great comics since
• 50:35
  and like and I guess comics and that sort of in the in the 50 60 years since this came out I've
• 50:39
  kind of I guess quote-unquote come of age and matured we've had great rights like Grant and Darwin
• 50:44
  and Alan and you know all those got bendis you know sort of bringing comics up you know
• 50:49
  into the 21st century and modernizing them and making them mature but I think with this the
• 50:55
  thing that I love about Ditko Strange specifically it was I think with Spider-Man because Spider-Man
• 50:59
  was like you say had a bit more notoriety I think Lee and the editorial team on Marvel kind of
• 51:04
  had a bit more of a say in what the stories were up to a certain point I know Ditko plotted
• 51:09
  well I think it's issue 27 of amazing Spider-Man onwards where Ditko until he leaves the book with
• 51:13
  issue 37 or something he he's plotting them and he's and you get the master plan of trilogy with Spider-Man
• 51:18
  the you know under the crush which is which which still holds up I still I actually think is
• 51:23
  as those free issues of Spider-Man are just unbelievable but I think with Ditko Strange I think
• 51:30
  because it was a bit like you say it was a bit more off the beaten track he had more control and I
• 51:34
  think you can feel that in these this is a sheer 130 to 146 and their 10 page each issue is a 10
• 51:40
  page installment of that strange so it's 160 pages and for me I mean it may be I'm wrong but I
• 51:45
  think I think of this as being like the first Marvel graphic novel because each episode is so in
• 51:52
  intrinsically linked to the last chapter each 10-10 page episode and Ditko like one of my favorite
• 51:58
  things not just because the art it well I work is fabulous and this is all the stuff with the classic
• 52:02
  I mean you can I'll show up to camera like you know the classic eternity imagery you know
• 52:07
  which is obviously iconic but the his his control of like we talk about structure like
• 52:12
  go back to Arkham asylum like his control of pacing just overall craft when it comes to plotting
• 52:19
  out a story and structuring it putting it on a comics page you know because he loves that 9-panel
• 52:23
  page grid that obviously Watchman Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons did a lot of repurposed for Watchman
• 52:28
  he knew exactly how to stratify and sort of break down time on a comic book page and so you get
• 52:34
  these 10 page installments and 10 pages is not a lot I think you'd you'd agree right me like your
• 52:38
  classic issue of a superhero comics 24 pages but in 10 pages each chapter he puts so much into
• 52:45
  those 9-panel grids that like at one of those 10 page installments can read has as much
• 52:52
  density and plot and stuff going on as a classic 24 page Spider-Man or Fantastic Four and
• 53:00
  and the stuff he's getting away with on the page like some of the high concept not just the imagery
• 53:03
  but like the well the imagery but like the the stuff the events on the page like because because
• 53:10
  the plot of this just to give someone I realize I've not set this up at all but like the plot of
• 53:13
  the eternity saga is Dormammu the the big bad from the dot strange universe has teamed up essentially
• 53:19
  with Baron Mordeaux who's chewed its allergy for in the dot strange movies they they've teamed up
• 53:24
  and they're basically going to try and conquer the world and dot strange is the first target like
• 53:28
  we've got to take out dot strange and strange goes on the run and basically most of the comic is
• 53:33
  him going on the run across the across earth but also into you know all these other different
• 53:37
  dimensions that he's found finds himself in and there's one issue where he goes into the sun at
• 53:41
  one point for like for like Dicco could take dot strange from like earth to the sun in like
• 53:47
  four panels and it would absolutely work it would absolutely make sense and and that in fact
• 53:52
  which is what happens he's being chased he flies into the sun he he bluffs Baron Mordeaux sort of
• 53:57
  follows him and he's like oh crap you know this is dangerous I gotta get out of it and and and he
• 54:02
  could do that in four panels and and and make you believe it and that what is what I think is so
• 54:08
  that is what I do think if you go back to those some of these silver age comics I think with
• 54:11
  some exceptions obviously like you know Kirby's Fantastic Four is fun is amazing and and his stuff
• 54:16
  on four as well and Dicco's Spider-Man and Will Eisner's work I think there's only a good a precious
• 54:22
  sort of smattering of comics which you could read today with modern eyes and think and still get
• 54:27
  the same thing out of it and I think Dicco's dot strange for me is is that it's like it's the comic
• 54:33
  where I go back and read it and I and I go back to 1966 oh and like you say like that this
• 54:39
  hadn't been done before this was like brand new like Dicco was getting comic book storytelling it
• 54:43
  with this in Spider-Man he was getting it down to like this he was like crafting it into such a
• 54:49
  a fine art and even though I I agree I love Kirby like Kirby is in some ways I think I'd probably
• 54:54
  take Kirby over Dicco overall because I love that explosive energy that he has and that imagination
• 55:00
  I think Dicco just was we each comic was just honing his craft like down and down and down to
• 55:05
  a science more it was very it's very scientific I think actually it's very sort of like this is how
• 55:10
  this is how you break it down and um and so yeah I just love it this is just like I'm rambling
• 55:15
  that word from it but like yeah I can cope with all of this like Dicco is you know you said you
• 55:20
  rather have lee over uh brother Kirby of Dicco have both they're both incredible I don't know
• 55:27
  the beauty of that era of marvel is that they are both operating on such a high level and obviously
• 55:31
  working with lee but they're also so different yeah like there's stuff that Kirby was doing in
• 55:37
  fantastic four and Thor and and Hulk and those kind of books was so groundbreaking in game changing
• 55:43
  like you'd never seen anything like it in a superhero comic an artist still today trying to
• 55:48
  recapture that spirit and the same is true for Dicco but Dicco was not doing what Kirby was doing
• 55:54
  the Kirby wasn't doing what Dicco is doing the both like revolutionizing comics from two different
• 56:00
  angles and I think it's the combination of the two that made marvel so successful in that period
• 56:06
  and obviously you've got lee as a conduit for both artists to kind of make it a little bit more
• 56:11
  accessible and easy for kids if you will and but yeah now I think they're like what Dicco did on Dr.
• 56:16
  Strange I think I'll you don't get a lot of iconic books afterwards and not a name I was hoping
• 56:22
  to bring up on this show for obvious reasons but I don't think you get things like the Sandman
• 56:26
  by Neil Gaiman without Steve Dicco and Dr. Strange and all of the thing I don't know if you get
• 56:31
  something like swamp think without Dr. Strange and those kind of I don't think you get hell blazer
• 56:36
  or a lot of like iconic comics are a little bit more not only magical and spiritual focus but less
• 56:41
  like conventional superhero and without what Dicco was doing here so a very worthy both for
• 56:49
  its kind of historical significance may wear the edition and also it's like said great comics
• 56:54
  both of their time and still today they hold up in a lot of interesting ways totally and it's not
• 56:59
  like he was sort of when I picked this up I go back and I and I said I'm in 1966 again and I
• 57:03
  read it and the comic is in is in that state that sort of embryonic kind of embryonic state marvel is
• 57:09
  and I'm not looking at it I'm I sort of my modernized sort of recede and I am able to sort of go
• 57:14
  back and look at it as it was then but also my modernized are there reading and thinking like how
• 57:18
  the hell did you do this like who's bashing this and Spider-Man out on a monthly basis like Kirby
• 57:23
  Bay and like obviously don't heck and the other Marvelized but like Kirby had so many pies like
• 57:27
  go in every month and Dicco had just you know mainly these two but he was still bashing
• 57:31
  his out every month and he was like changing the game like you said earlier like the detail in
• 57:36
  them as well and how much can get conveyed in a single panel is like we took the new frontier
• 57:41
  with Arkham like a real craftsmanship on display in these books that not that you don't get now
• 57:46
  because obviously do but you know this is pre-digital this is just a guy with a pencil like
• 57:52
  yeah it's incredible to see them out of detail and thought that goes into every single panel
• 57:57
  in those grids totally and also just the fact that like like you say I feel like we have to
• 58:01
  mention it with Dicco in strange was that like you say he was just he was a guy with a pencil he
• 58:06
  was putting it down on the board and then like he would completely straight edge like no I
• 58:10
  asked the last the other thing I know the thing about Doctor Strange at the time was that all these
• 58:13
  hippies were getting into it reading it and dropping acid and oh well they were reading it because
• 58:17
  the division the Dicco artwork was so out there but Dicco himself yeah and as I say I'm without
• 58:23
  Doctor Strange we wouldn't probably have that the the psychedelic wave or strain in mainstream
• 58:28
  comics like from Swamp Thing I think Swamp Thing is actually a really good comparison because
• 58:31
  there are so many issues of that we've Steve Bezett and John Totelbenz are which I think totally has
• 58:36
  a a a fruit line back to Doctor Strange and more's were writing as well but like the fact that Dicco
• 58:43
  was cannot have been more can like politically more conservative or like I guess more straight edge
• 58:48
  as a person I feel like the fact that his artwork was basically becoming like the poster he was
• 58:54
  like the poster child for all these this generation of hippies the Doctor Strange became that
• 58:58
  this isn't really cool about because even like Stephen Strange himself is a very like straight
• 59:02
  laced and I don't know if I'd use the word conservative but a very kind of traditional orthodox
• 59:08
  character and you know said we did co obviously with his kind of objective his background
• 59:13
  to create an art that is so like of an era that is so counter cultural is such an interesting
• 59:20
  like mix but yeah you can very much see how this especially in the era of 1966 how this art and
• 59:26
  this style would be adopted by hippies and and people that were into experimenting with LSD and
• 59:33
  you know putting this on and listening to Sergeant Peppers in the background is like
• 59:37
  I don't be an incredible experience I'm sure that's it I also I feel like I should mention I mean
• 59:42
  like so this is actually not so it's I wouldn't say it's off topic but it's kind of opening up
• 59:47
  a whole of a sort of story for me because like you say we would we talk about these comics in
• 59:51
  relation to us personally and Dicco was as an artist was very personal to me because obviously
• 59:57
  I grew up reading Spider-Man and Spider-Man was I think maybe we could say the same thing like Peter
• 1:00:00
  Parker was really a kind of you know a touchstone character I think for us like he was kind of a
• 1:00:06
  hero in many ways so I think for me anyway certainly reading those comics and identifying with him
• 1:00:11
  and with Dicco so I actually went to so I actually got to meet Dicco a couple of times when he was
• 1:00:18
  alive back in 2014 me and my family went to New York on like a family holiday and me and my dad
• 1:00:26
  basically did what I don't know if you've seen the John Farross in search of Steve Dicco documentary
• 1:00:31
  which is great like they they go and knock on his door we basically did the same thing and and we
• 1:00:36
  got to say hi to the Dicco and it was that was an amazing experience as well and and we I sort of
• 1:00:41
  sent them a few letters and he would reply and he was always very sweet he was a really lovely guy
• 1:00:45
  and as someone who was sort of one of my sort of comic heroes it has a lot of significance for me as well
• 1:00:50
  like the Dicco dot strange and the Spider-Man too but like yeah like so that's kind of I guess the
• 1:00:55
  incredible wow thanks well yeah well it was it was just it was incredible it was it was so I'd
• 1:01:01
  sent him a couple of letters because he was it was quite easy to get in touch with when he was
• 1:01:05
  alive to be honest he was I don't know if you ever sort of did you ever reach out to him did you
• 1:01:09
  ever send him no no but I remember I probably think my first like knowledge of who Dicco was was
• 1:01:14
  that documentary in search of Steve Dicco like I very visibly remember that coming out in the
• 1:01:20
  the Jonathan Ross show in like the mid 2000s and that really being like my first kind of context
• 1:01:25
  I'd heard the name of saying knew that he was a co-creator of Spider-Man but that was the first time
• 1:01:29
  that I was like really cognizantly aware of who Steve Dicco was and the first thing that like maybe
• 1:01:35
  interested to like really learn about him and check out his work beyond Spider-Man and so but now
• 1:01:40
  like the fact that you got to meet him and talk to him is such an incredible thing yeah it really was
• 1:01:47
  and it was and I kind of count myself very lucky that it happened to be honest because I'd sent him
• 1:01:50
  a couple of letters and I'd sort of excited I'd found his sort of address he's a for a guy he was
• 1:01:54
  I think notoriously pretty you know camera shine reclusive you know which I you know he he was
• 1:02:00
  quite easy to find to be honest like you know because he would get a lot of fan mail and so I remember
• 1:02:05
  sending him a couple of fan letters and he would and he replied and he would send back these really
• 1:02:11
  sort of thoughtful polite you know respectful replies and I would just be asking him questions about
• 1:02:16
  I guess Spider-Man but also just about his general sort of approach to comics and then when I was in
• 1:02:21
  New York with on of this family holiday back in sort of 2014 me and my dad went to his office block
• 1:02:26
  and basically knocked on his door and and he came to the door and we ended up chatting to him for
• 1:02:31
  good 20 25 minutes and he looked and he and he looked you know how you imagine Dicco like you know
• 1:02:36
  he had these sort of these very sort of thick glasses on we've sort of celate around the sort of
• 1:02:41
  on the frames and he had like in con his fingers he'd obviously been because he was doing his comics
• 1:02:45
  right up until the day he died basically he was writing and drawing his own independent comics
• 1:02:49
  and he had this sort of flat cap on and he was and he was very New York like even though he's from
• 1:02:53
  he was from Pennsylvania like very New York character and yeah we ended up just chatting for
• 1:02:57
  20 minutes and then and it was yeah it was amazing it was it was an incredible experience
• 1:03:02
  it was incredible like and obviously like the time does not add up but the things I would have
• 1:03:06
  done to have ever met Jack Kirby oh my god tell me about it and to have a conversation with
• 1:03:10
  I've been very fortunate that I've had interactions with the Kirby estate in the Kirby family
• 1:03:15
  over the years oh have you which has been tremendous I've done a couple of like really
• 1:03:20
  Kirby centric projects in the past and they've always been very complimentary and very respectful
• 1:03:26
  and hearing hearing nice things from relatives and family members of Jack meant a lot to me
• 1:03:32
  that would have been a dream to have spent an afternoon chatting comics with Jack Kirby and
• 1:03:37
  Steve Dicco I imagine is the exact same so the fun you got to spend that time with the creator
• 1:03:43
  of Spider-Man you say it out loud and it sounds insane yeah totally and I pinch myself I still I
• 1:03:49
  like say I count myself very lucky that I got to meet him and and I like say and Kirby would have
• 1:03:54
  been the same but I'd say the timing just wouldn't have we don't but we would need a time machine
• 1:04:01
  it's hardest to get to get back to Kirby's time but now Dicco he was lovely that's
• 1:04:06
  thing like he was really because obviously he had a reputation but he was really lovely he was
• 1:04:09
  very gentle he was very polite he was very like because what happened was so I went and I went
• 1:04:14
  and met him at his door and then that night I realized I'd written all these questions to ask him
• 1:04:18
  in the flesh but I'd completely forgotten to ask him any of them because I completely blanked
• 1:04:22
  and I just ended up chatting to him and then and what was nice was that he was sort of asked me
• 1:04:26
  questions he was asking me also because I was still at school at the time and he was like oh so what
• 1:04:29
  are you doing you know what are you doing for school what do you like to do like what would you like
• 1:04:32
  to be that kind of thing and it was really so he was very he was a genuinely interested person
• 1:04:36
  and and I realized that oh I haven't asked them any of these questions so I went back then
• 1:04:41
  I actually went back I can't believe I wouldn't I don't know if I do it today but I went back I
• 1:04:45
  either sort of the nuts to sort of go back and I was in the lobby of the office block and I actually
• 1:04:49
  was going to write the questions down and and ask the lobby you know the the guy on the in the lobby
• 1:04:54
  to give them to it maybe but he came down in the lift this was at 6 p.m. in the evening he came
• 1:04:58
  down in the in the lift because he just finished the day's work he would go he would go to his
• 1:05:02
  office every day like eight in the morning till like six in the evening and he would just be doing
• 1:05:06
  comics and answering letters and doing in business and I and he and he was like 85 when I met
• 1:05:12
  him and he was still had all of his you know he was yeah all of his marbles he was so together
• 1:05:17
  and he came down in the lift and he spotted me and he recognized me he was like oh hey and
• 1:05:21
  and ended up just saying hey what are you doing he has like oh I was going to write you some
• 1:05:25
  questions oh great and he just stood and waited for me to finish writing these questions but he was
• 1:05:29
  so nice and I remember we walked down the street for a bit and he was like we were just chatting
• 1:05:33
  and and he and I can't I can't quite remember exactly what we were chatting about now but like
• 1:05:37
  we were just talking and then I sort of he gave me his pen to like write my dress on the envelope
• 1:05:43
  with the questions in and I was like I'm holding Steve it goes pen and then he was and he was like
• 1:05:47
  yeah the problem I have of some fans that they they don't put their dresses on the envelope so I
• 1:05:50
  am supposed to get the letter back to them so he was just being really nice and then he just
• 1:05:54
  wandered off into like the New York it was just near time square where he was based and he just
• 1:05:58
  wandered off kind of like a dico cartoon like you sort of wandered off into the distance and it was
• 1:06:03
  just like I was I was kind of like what the hell's just happened you know it was it was amazing
• 1:06:09
  that's so cool that's literally like blown my mind and made my day I can't imagine how much
• 1:06:14
  that must have meant to you as a kid and even to look back at it now like he said like dico
• 1:06:19
  whether it's right or wrongly there is this perception of what Steve dico was like and what is
• 1:06:24
  how personable he was but the fact that he took that time and you just a random kid so to chat
• 1:06:30
  with you and be so friendly and thoughtful and kind and chatty is like that's really sweet
• 1:06:36
  especially at his age like he said he was in his age he was if he just wanted to go home and rest
• 1:06:41
  he would not begrudge him after work more like now he was clearly so touched that someone would
• 1:06:46
  go out the way to speak to him and want to ask him about his work is really nice and I think
• 1:06:51
  that's a beautiful story thanks mate yeah well it's it means a lot to me the the the fact that it
• 1:06:56
  happened and and also I got to say like again like you say he was he's just done day at work
• 1:07:00
  at the in the office he was probably in his mid 80s and it was like it was new years in 2014
• 1:07:04
  in New York so it was freezing it was and he was going to work like every morning at the crack of
• 1:07:09
  dawn doing and he was in his eighties like I was I was I think my dad even more than me at the time
• 1:07:13
  was like hats off like he couldn't believe it he was like this is incredible how he still got the
• 1:07:18
  energy to do this he still loves comics and doing what he and his work so much it was incredible
• 1:07:25
  it was genuinely kind of humbling it was like wow sure yeah I think that as well that story kind
• 1:07:29
  of segrees quite nicely into my third book that I wanted to talk about okay and we've done
• 1:07:35
  it like I said we hadn't planned this in advance but I think we've done a really good job of
• 1:07:38
  transitioning from one to the next very well so my number three is this might be an obscure one
• 1:07:44
  I don't know if you're going to refer to this this might be me flexing a real deep core I don't
• 1:07:49
  think you'll know the writer you'll know the book I think we're really going to turn some heads here
• 1:07:54
  okay so it's by so this is a comic that ran between 2005 to 2008 it was published by a company called
• 1:08:03
  DC Comics it's written by this obscure Scotch writer called get this up rant morisive
• 1:08:14
  on and drawn by Frank quickly quite yes well I tell star superman oh yeah okay so I'll give
• 1:08:25
  you a kind of little background into my history with this book because it's quite extensive and
• 1:08:30
  long and I have been on the record before and said that this is the single greatest comic book ever
• 1:08:36
  made and obviously like depending on the day if you lean differently but today I'm very much
• 1:08:43
  off that opinion I don't think it is hyperbole to say that this comic changed my life in quite a
• 1:08:48
  big way and means a lot to me personally we're talking off Mike earlier I've written a piece
• 1:08:56
  for a book that's coming out shortly all about this series and well I'd read all stars superman
• 1:09:01
  countless times it was only one of my favorite comics before I started that project about two or so
• 1:09:05
  years ago I reached a new level of diving deep into this book that I feel that like I know it inside
• 1:09:12
  and out every single page every single detail every single idea I feel that I no stones left
• 1:09:18
  unturned with that project and so it's a book that I have a lot of feelings on and Morrison themselves
• 1:09:23
  is a writer that has a massive impact on me both personally and professionally you know I don't
• 1:09:30
  need to explain who that Morrison is to you or to people that are watching this show thankfully they
• 1:09:33
  can speak for themselves but I mentioned earlier that Ultimate Spider-Man was the first book that I
• 1:09:39
  kind of fell in love with and bend his was the first writer that I followed I think Morrison was
• 1:09:43
  a quick second there's just something about Baldur's right super heroes that just speaks to me
• 1:09:49
  but yeah like as soon as I discovered and I can't remember what the first Morrison book I ever
• 1:09:54
  read was it probably blew my mind it was probably like Batman RIP even final crisis or something
• 1:10:02
  of that era but all stars are but that I always return so and I read every year and like really
• 1:10:09
  change my perception on what superhero comics could be and open my eyes up to like the infinite
• 1:10:15
  possibilities of superheroes and then the more I started to learn about the making of the book
• 1:10:20
  and everything that Grant was inspired by both in terms of like the comics and the art that they
• 1:10:25
  love and also their own personal experiences with losing their dad that went into the making of
• 1:10:29
  this series in a way that I often credit Morrison with Owen Lex comics existing as a show
• 1:10:35
  because in the first year of university I was in the university library and I was just scanning
• 1:10:42
  books and I found super gods yeah and I read super gods in like the first semester of my first year
• 1:10:49
  university and because I was studying for a degree in history I was also starting to think about
• 1:10:56
  doubling in YouTube I was back reading comics for a few years I was kind of the guy in my friend
• 1:11:01
  group when a new Marvel movie was announced it was what is this what is the winter soldier what is
• 1:11:06
  Ragnarok and I kind of reach that status and then reading super gods which is one of my favorite
• 1:11:12
  books to this day it's it's real it's an absolute masterpiece same same but the way Grant kind of
• 1:11:19
  chronicles the history of comics in this almost like academic way was the moment that I realized
• 1:11:26
  that this can be a thing I can apply the the approaches and the structures that you would do with
• 1:11:33
  like traditional history two super heroes and there is a story to tell about the behind the scenes
• 1:11:38
  of people that worked at Marvel and DC and how these stories and these characters were created
• 1:11:43
  and so it was like that was the Eureka moment was reading super gods that was like I want to do that
• 1:11:48
  I love super heroes and I want to be a historian instead of instead we don't need another person
• 1:11:54
  expaying the history of world war to all Vietnam or whatever I feel like proper history has been
• 1:12:01
  well covered at this point who's going to talk about the history of doom patrol and the history
• 1:12:09
  of doctor strange and all this stuff the kind of one two punch of all stars superman and super gods
• 1:12:14
  was kind of like the moment where it was like this is what I want to do for the rest of my life
• 1:12:19
  so I always credit grant for that but then all star itself is it's it's incredible like what
• 1:12:24
  needs to be said about all stars you've met at this point it's a masterpiece it is the best superman
• 1:12:29
  story it is arguably the best comic book it is whimsical it is high concept it is silly but almost
• 1:12:36
  every issue will make you ball your eyes out in tears oh it has some of my favorite quotes and some
• 1:12:40
  of my favorite dialogue and some of my favorite art by by front quietly it has and a beautiful ending
• 1:12:48
  a beautiful beginning it is it's everything you could ever ask a superhero comic to be it's
• 1:12:54
  what what more need to be said what was well this is it like like we said before what we were when
• 1:13:00
  we made this list we decided to only have like one comic per artist which I think is a good rule
• 1:13:05
  but I so could easily and I'm a grant was you know Arkham Asylum is grants slot on my list but I
• 1:13:12
  could so easily report all star superman because it means so much to me too and it's so and it's
• 1:13:17
  lovely to hear you say all that and because I understand because I feel because I feel the same
• 1:13:21
  way about it it was and the super gods what I mean super gods I actually think of them and all
• 1:13:25
  start that all super gods and all star superman is in the same kind of breath for me too I mean I
• 1:13:29
  remember reading super gods yeah kind of companion pieces in a way because yeah obviously all
• 1:13:34
  star is in a weird way it's kind of autobiographical for grant super gods is almost like you know
• 1:13:39
  when used by DVDs as a kid and would be like the making of documentary super gods is almost like
• 1:13:45
  that book for all star superman so I do often think of them in the same breath and I read them both
• 1:13:49
  for the first time like a year apart so same same I remember getting super gods for Christmas and
• 1:13:55
  it was like the Christmas 2011 the best Christmas present you know it blew my mind as well and
• 1:13:59
  and superman too I mean because I was never a big superman fan growing up like like I say like
• 1:14:03
  DC came to me through Arkham Asylum and then superman but I think all star superman was the gateway
• 1:14:08
  to superman for me too I remember picking it up the off the shelves at my local library and reading
• 1:14:13
  the first volume because it was in two volumes now it's in one main yeah paperback but then it was
• 1:14:19
  in two volumes because it was still coming out I want to say I remember reading those first six
• 1:14:23
  issues and even it sounds so odd and sort of almost I guess silly to say but even something about
• 1:14:28
  the the name superman in my head it just like the cadence of it it just sounded silly to me until
• 1:14:35
  I read all star superman I didn't get it until I read all star superman and the cadence almost
• 1:14:40
  of that of his name and his whole personality kind of changed it was like a lightball moment I've
• 1:14:45
  like oh I get it I this is what this is what it's about this is what superman's about and it is
• 1:14:49
  and like Grant said it kind of it was meant intended to be the kind of the bible for Superman it was
• 1:14:54
  like this is the definitive story and take on it and I agree with everything you said about how
• 1:14:59
  I would agree I think it's the best I would argue as well it's the best superhero comic honestly
• 1:15:03
  because I think most people would level that and it's interesting like say we mentioned on
• 1:15:07
  more earlier a lot of people would level that sort of description maybe at watchman and I think
• 1:15:12
  watchman is the obvious choice because it was it's kind of revered as the citizen Kane of sort of
• 1:15:16
  mainstream comics of superhero comics it did so much it reinvented so much and it broke comics out
• 1:15:23
  into the wider world in many ways but the thing about more and I and I love this about more but the
• 1:15:28
  thing about more is that he's he's a deconstructive writer when it comes to superheroes and what I love
• 1:15:32
  about Grant and with all star superman is that he's an affirmative writer he affirms he doesn't
• 1:15:37
  break down he builds up and he affirms in a really in the most like liverical way and there are so
• 1:15:43
  much there are so many moments like that for all star superman where and it is an emotional genie
• 1:15:48
  like like issue six where he's where you know Jonathan Ken all about the small villain Jonathan Ken
• 1:15:53
  Steph it is very emotional and yeah no I agree basically I agree with every issue with that
• 1:16:02
  book is incredible there's not a bad page but the two issues that kind of mean the most to me are
• 1:16:08
  like said issue six which I wrote about quite extensively for this book project especially when
• 1:16:14
  you know the kind of the history about Grant and and their dad it you know there's a lot about
• 1:16:18
  his super gods and then the extra research I did and just learning about Grant's dad the first time
• 1:16:23
  I met Grant I actually had a chat with them about the dad which was I really because I was writing
• 1:16:29
  the projects at the time I just answered it and I mentioned that I learned a lot about their father
• 1:16:35
  and how much of it interesting and cool guy he was and we got to have a little chat about that and
• 1:16:39
  they were I don't think they grant with mommy saying they were quite touched by that and it was
• 1:16:44
  quite a short moment for the two of us I'm sure that makes issue six so powerful when you when
• 1:16:51
  you know the perspective in which Morrison's writing it from and I always like the moment at the
• 1:16:56
  end of that issue where the Superman from the end of the book like the golden sun Superman comes
• 1:17:01
  back and leaves the the Kryptonian flower on John's grave gets me every time it's a moment where
• 1:17:07
  where Superboy is rushing back from the Kronovore and he tears us building out from his face he's like
• 1:17:13
  I can save I can save everyone and you get the little caption that says that the Kronovore at the
• 1:17:18
  exact amount of seconds it would take for him to be there with his father before he died and then
• 1:17:23
  you get that hard cut to the speech at the funeral masterful the moment for me I adore is issue 10
• 1:17:30
  is the the kind of pocket universe story we're basically it's a day in the life of Superman
• 1:17:36
  but also running through he creates a simulation he creates this pocket reality to reassure him that
• 1:17:42
  the world will be okay if Superman doesn't exist so he runs a simulation of the entire human history
• 1:17:50
  24 hours but Superman never lands on earth and he wants to see by the end of it will everything be
• 1:17:56
  okay without me and you get this great A plot and B plot the A plot of Superman saving the day
• 1:18:02
  that's where you get the iconic moment where he stops the girl who's about to jump off the building
• 1:18:07
  and you get this B plot where you see the different advancements in history you see you know
• 1:18:13
  the ancient Greeks you see Frederick Nietzsche you see all these great advancements in in literature
• 1:18:18
  in science in art and culture and then the end of that book Superman comes back to the force
• 1:18:23
  of solitude just lies down and rests exhausted after a busy day and we see the final page is
• 1:18:31
  what grant considers like the last great advancement in human history next to all these incredible
• 1:18:37
  things is Jerry Siegel and Joe Schuster creating Superman and it's that that great moment where
• 1:18:43
  you just see like the outline of the sketch and one of them says to the other this is going to change
• 1:18:46
  everything and what I love about that is and the thing I love about Grant's work so much is
• 1:18:52
  I can't remember the exact phrasing they use but there's a passage in super gods where
• 1:18:56
  Grant basically argues that superheroes are real that they are these kind of like fifth-dimensional
• 1:19:01
  creatures that exist because we believe in them the Superman and Batman and Iron Man inspired
• 1:19:08
  a man are all real because we will them into existence because we find strength and inspiration in
• 1:19:14
  them there's a there's a quote in super gods was Grant says that like Superman is real
• 1:19:19
  Superman's more real than I am because more people have encountered Superman they've encountered
• 1:19:23
  me when people die they will have more memories of Superman they will have made Superman everyone has
• 1:19:29
  a story to tell about Superman so therefore he's real and I think that like that comes out really
• 1:19:35
  well in issue ten of all star where you get this moment where you essentially get Superman create
• 1:19:41
  our reality my favorite quote Grant said was in a random interview where they talk about creation
• 1:19:46
  Superman where they say that like in our darkest hour we created we created a man that would never
• 1:19:51
  let us down and in that in Superman's darkest hour he creates us and that is the thing that reassures
• 1:20:00
  in that everything's going to be okay I just think it's beautiful I could but then the final
• 1:20:06
  issue with Lex Luthor you know that you could have saved the world years ago if it mattered to you
• 1:20:10
  the to Lois Lane I give you our future Jimmy Olsen turns into Doomsday Samson Atlas show
• 1:20:16
  or is this thing so it's it's it's the best it's the best and totally and I I feel like I can't
• 1:20:23
  I don't think I can have much more to what you've said of them than just say I agree and also
• 1:20:27
  and what I love about that sequence that you mentioned in issue ten about how you see in Earth
• 1:20:32
  you see basically yeah human humanity existing about Superman and it's all these different
• 1:20:37
  advancements and until you get to Jerry Siegel and Joe Schuster creating Superman on the page
• 1:20:41
  and what I love about it is that it is like that sequence that B plot it is like you see
• 1:20:45
  people basically people in a world without Superman you see people basically creating Superman
• 1:20:50
  because Grant talks about that like with like the first clip the first panel of that B plot is like
• 1:20:54
  the aborigines and that they're drawing the sun god on the side of the rock and like who's
• 1:20:59
  out there there's the sky and there's the sun and who's out there who could it be and then you
• 1:21:03
  get like the Indian the Hindu guy sort of like building the statue to the sun god and then you get
• 1:21:08
  you know niche trying to describe it you know behold I teach to the Superman and then you finally
• 1:21:12
  get it to 1938 with Jerry and Joe's you know Joe Siegel and Schuster and they're they've distilled
• 1:21:17
  it down to this perfect drawing of like they're even a kid can understand like this is the way the
• 1:21:22
  way the way the grant essentially chronicles all the biggest advancements in like literature
• 1:21:28
  and art and culture as historical steps in eventually creating Superman and Superman kind of being
• 1:21:35
  the crowning achievement of centuries of everything from the ancient Greeks to Shakespeare to
• 1:21:42
  Nietzsche and onwards is one like the most morisonian thing possible and two just so cool and
• 1:21:50
  such a great like celebration of the Superman character yeah and a celebration in the sense that
• 1:21:54
  it's a celebration of humanity as well like you know yeah I said in our darkest times we created
• 1:21:58
  something that would never let us down and was the best of us I mean that is and that is what's
• 1:22:02
  so powerful about you know the the way and I don't think many people if anyone can talk about
• 1:22:07
  superheroes as eloquently as Grant Morrison and it's like what Mark Wade says in the introduction
• 1:22:11
  to all sorts of many says you know it's like and it's like you just said like you know gods get
• 1:22:14
  their power from us believing in them and Superman gets his power from believing in us and I think
• 1:22:20
  that's what so you know lyrical about it and sort of life affirming about it is I just think
• 1:22:27
  also Superman as you say it just distills all of that perfectly in these 12 issues which are just
• 1:22:31
  absolutely classical which anyone can pick up and read and enjoy there's no there's no there's not
• 1:22:37
  really much continuity to worry about you can just pick it up you can enjoy it one of the things I
• 1:22:41
  love about this book is it gives you everything you need to know one page doomed planet last hope
• 1:22:47
  can we couple Superman desperate scientists yeah and then boom and speaking speaking of that I
• 1:22:54
  love that in the first because when I reread that comic for the interview with Grant I read I
• 1:22:59
  went back that was the first protocol was a reread also Superman because we were going to be
• 1:23:02
  talking about it in relation to the movie and and the first I think six issues I think I don't
• 1:23:08
  think this is the case of all of them I think for the first five or six issues because each issue
• 1:23:12
  focuses on different character you've got obviously the opener with you know focus on Superman then
• 1:23:16
  you've got you know lowest lanes issue in issue three the Superman Superman issue two Superman's
• 1:23:21
  forbidden room and then you know the the Superman issue and then Jimmy Olson's issue in issue four then
• 1:23:26
  Lex gets his issue in issue five and each opening page does exactly what you've just said they set up
• 1:23:32
  the characters and the focus for what that issue is going to be so perfectly it's like Lex Lufa's
• 1:23:36
  issue it's like you've got the judge going through every single great villain of history and then
• 1:23:40
  boom you get to Lex Lufa it's like and he's and he's in the dock it's like you can't get kind of a
• 1:23:45
  better summation of Lex Lufa just instantly than that and again going back to Grant as just a
• 1:23:51
  writer how technically good they are on a technical level I mean as a writer going back to structure
• 1:23:56
  and character they just they they they know exactly what they're doing you know and that comic is
• 1:24:00
  the epitome of them at the height of their powers is and Frank Quietley's as well obviously
• 1:24:05
  I couldn't agree more and it's like I love all of I would consider Grant to be my favorite Superman
• 1:24:10
  writer I love all of the Superman look I love the new 52 action comics run I love Superman on
• 1:24:17
  on the Superman and the authority book they did a couple years ago with Michele Janin I love the
• 1:24:22
  Super the JLA run in the late 90s like Grant Morrison made electric blue Superman call which I
• 1:24:27
  didn't think was possible which isn't blue like anytime you know Final Crisis anytime Grant gets
• 1:24:32
  to write Superman I always think the characters handled so so well and what like said I always
• 1:24:39
  obviously knew Superman was as a kid I don't think I would have called myself a Superman fan
• 1:24:43
  Superman was lame I like Batman he was cool so and I like Spider-Man because he was like me
• 1:24:49
  and then I think it was either kind of reading the old star really like awakened Superman to me
• 1:24:54
  or it was kind of like I see Superman in a different way now where it was I had this expectation
• 1:25:00
  what Superman was this is like giving me a different view and this way in is a character that really
• 1:25:07
  speaks to me same and sometimes you just need to write it sometimes you just need someone to sort of
• 1:25:11
  open the chest view and go like okay this is what it is and and for you to get it I mean I was
• 1:25:16
  the same and for me it was Batman it was Spider-Man it was and then reading also Superman because
• 1:25:20
  I was a fan of Morrison's work it was like oh I get it you know I finally get it I actually I
• 1:25:25
  agree I love the action comics ironically we're both quoting that that Lex Luthormoan in the last
• 1:25:29
  issue I see it I see it now I see yeah is that he completes the Unified Field doesn't it and it's
• 1:25:36
  like oh that's such a great moment and there's actually a great I'll plug a podcast that I'm
• 1:25:40
  a fan of there's a I don't know I assume I presume you've you've met I've heard of them but um
• 1:25:44
  I mean it's comic book counseling I mean it's called it's a couple and they did a great episode
• 1:25:48
  with Grant about that and they talk exactly about that scene about the Lex Luthormoan having the
• 1:25:52
  epiphany and it's wonderful yeah Brad and Lisa from Corkbox couples counseling that's different
• 1:25:58
  to mine and oh great they they're incredible interview with Grant it's just as much as I loved what
• 1:26:04
  you did in your conversation with them like and about and Lisa I think come from a very similar
• 1:26:09
  place that I do in terms of like what I like about comics and what gets me going in terms of stories
• 1:26:14
  so like they're they're into Grant was just incredible yeah now I had to take my hat off and I
• 1:26:19
  take my hat off to them and then I did listen to it and run and they run up to my interview of Grant
• 1:26:23
  and yeah they got they got some amazing stuff out of Grant they really did I mean and it was great
• 1:26:28
  hearing them dive deep into that comic so please if you're if you're friendly with them pass on
• 1:26:32
  my praise I guess it was a great episode and it was a big help for me and the research
• 1:26:36
  for for my interview with Grant but yeah no I mean what I mean what else they're more
• 1:26:40
  more said say but also Superman I mean it is it is incredible and and it actually leads quite
• 1:26:44
  nicely into my next my next pick which which is interesting because it's the exact opposite
• 1:26:51
  of all star Superman and and this is where Alan Moore enters the chat because as we say the
• 1:26:55
  thing about all star Superman is that it affirms not only Superman but the principles of Superman and
• 1:27:00
  bike extension I think the superhero and and what I've gone for here is I guess the complete
• 1:27:06
  inverse of that I don't know if you can guess what it is but it's I'm a really good set
• 1:27:12
  do you know what my next none my next one was gonna be was it miracle man literally I've got
• 1:27:18
  read that number four miracle man by Alan Moore holy crap I get from finally got some actual
• 1:27:23
  crossover that was the next one I was gonna as soon as you started saying more and it's the opposite
• 1:27:29
  all star Superman I was like so we can we can kind of share this one I suppose then
• 1:27:34
  yeah I was lucky kind of introduce it but instead of me also running through it okay yeah let's do
• 1:27:40
  it let's let's let's let's go into it so the thing of miracle man for me is that and I guess
• 1:27:44
  link it's starting from sort of my sort of connection to it and and I don't I don't
• 1:27:48
  are we calling it miracle man or Marvel man are we doing you know if we want to be sort of like
• 1:27:52
  hardcore niche fans say it's Marvel man but I mean if you want to be really niche it should be
• 1:27:57
  Marvel man up to issue 13 and it's miracle and then it's miracle yeah I always I always just
• 1:28:04
  referred to Moore's run as miracle man and the original like Mick angolo stuff is Marvel man but
• 1:28:09
  if you want to be really specific like I tend to call it miracle man just because like Americans
• 1:28:15
  don't know what Marvel man is totally yeah I guess it is probably better known as miracle man now
• 1:28:20
  yeah no absolutely no I will go miracle man then but like potato but I though but yeah
• 1:28:25
  it's Marvel man really it's Marvel yeah so so my connection to this is so I was a huge
• 1:28:32
  like even though I'd say Grant Morrison is actually my favorite writer in comics I think more at
• 1:28:37
  a certain point was actually I think it was always on some level grant but I think on at one
• 1:28:41
  point in time Moore was kind of my main kind of obsession when it came to comics like I read
• 1:28:46
  basically everything that Moore did and miracle man kind of because I don't know if you remember
• 1:28:52
  but they re the Marvel bought the rights and started to be releasing Marvel miracle man the issues
• 1:28:57
  the reprints quite sort of late in the game kind of I mean obviously in the grand scheme of things
• 1:29:00
  very late in the game but like in terms of they were it was like 2014 2015 I was going to say
• 1:29:05
  about mid 2010s because it looked like from the copy you were holding up because Marvel did
• 1:29:09
  those like three volumes that's the same collection I have yes so like 2014 2015 trades oh okay
• 1:29:17
  because I've got this this is the actually from I think last year the big tray paper which by the
• 1:29:22
  way the fact that this comic run took 40 years to get a tray paperback printed where you can
• 1:29:28
  quite cheap where you can read it is absolutely insane to me the fact that this run I mean I've
• 1:29:33
  there are many reasons why but like the fact that it took 40 years is is incredible to me because I've
• 1:29:38
  got the I've got the three volumes and the like the 2014 2015 trades and I had to hunt them down
• 1:29:46
  and they're really expensive and that's what's crazy about it this run which is so important
• 1:29:49
  which should be available in every in my opinion every sort of library in every warstones in every
• 1:29:54
  comic shop you know freely available it is it was so hard to track down it's insane so I read
• 1:30:00
  those issues when they were getting reprinted one at a time and they actually Marvel put them in
• 1:30:03
  like plastic you know like sleeves basically because they were mature comics so you know they didn't
• 1:30:09
  want you know kids getting their hands on them so yeah they had like they were wrapped up in
• 1:30:13
  basically cellophane and basically I remember reading those issues as they were coming out
• 1:30:17
  when they were because it was a huge deal it was like oh god mirror command is finally getting
• 1:30:20
  reprinted and I didn't I'll be honest when I read bought the issues I was kind of on my way out of
• 1:30:25
  my first initial sort of like flush of being a huge comics fan so I was kind of like getting more
• 1:30:31
  into at the time I was getting more into film and music and I was and I was kind of on my way out
• 1:30:35
  a little bit and so I mirror command didn't quite hit for me when I first read those issues every month
• 1:30:40
  but I bought them all and then about sort of seven or eight years later I reread them
• 1:30:46
  and it absolutely not me out and I will I will say for now and I know this is my sort of I guess
• 1:30:52
  my hot the hottest take I'll say on this this this conversation I'm going to say mirror command
• 1:30:57
  is the most important work of Alan Moore's career I would agree that is what that is my hot
• 1:31:03
  take okay good good so that's my entry into mirror command because I just think I mean and there
• 1:31:08
  are a few there are a few reasons for that one I think the most obvious being it precies watchman
• 1:31:13
  so everything he did in watchmen in terms of the basic approach of you darken superhero story
• 1:31:20
  and mythology you you bring it into the real world you deconstruct it you you know in a postman
• 1:31:25
  and where you took you you break it down and you sort of inverse it and you do it for laughs but
• 1:31:29
  also for drama and just to play with the idea of the superhero it all it's all in mirror command
• 1:31:35
  before you know three four years before he started on watchmen and also I just think like and
• 1:31:41
  I'm curious to get European on this own because I feel like every single quote unquote R rated superhero
• 1:31:46
  comic film game they're playing in the sandbox that more built with and his artist built with
• 1:31:53
  mirror command they're not building they're not playing in the sandbox I think that the watchmen
• 1:31:57
  sandbox they're playing in the mirror command sandbox because all the imagery and all the
• 1:32:01
  approach on the ideas and violence as well the violence in the comic the sexual content the
• 1:32:06
  violence the the adult take on the material it's all a mirror command like and what and he did
• 1:32:11
  and the yeah watchman obviously has that too but it's a more formal approach in a sense and also
• 1:32:18
  with male command like he wasn't he was you know there's only so much you can get away with at DC
• 1:32:22
  in 1986 when you're doing watchmen like with a male command you know he's obviously working for warrior
• 1:32:27
  British homegrown magazine British homegrown superhero and he's doing what he wants on this and the
• 1:32:32
  content you and you can feel that in the comic like you know that it's not changed in any ways
• 1:32:37
  completely unchanged and it's incredible like so as I say like by opening gambit here is like
• 1:32:43
  out mirror command hot take the most important work of Moore's career because it establishes the tone
• 1:32:48
  of his the rest of his career many ways I think his voice and also just as it is take on the superhero
• 1:32:54
  archetype it's this is it this is like it's all in here I think it in terms of like what he would
• 1:33:00
  go on to do even in stuff like watchmen I think this is this is where it's at I'm I'm just still in
• 1:33:06
  shock that we both had it next upon our list that you know I said at the start of this that I think
• 1:33:12
  we've got quite similar tastes this is the living proof of that yeah I agree with everything you
• 1:33:17
  said so I I'd come to this as someone that was already a big fan of Alan Moore's work who's
• 1:33:22
  already one of my favorite comic book writers and this was at the moment where it was like okay I've
• 1:33:27
  read all of you're like big famous stuff I've read Swamp Thing I've read your Batman I've read
• 1:33:32
  whatever happened to the man of tomorrow like I need the deep cuts I need more no pun intended
• 1:33:37
  and that's when I I went out and searched this and this is a comic that like I do you think there is
• 1:33:43
  a bit of like a mystique in a in a uniqueness like I think it's kind of this fabled book a little bit
• 1:33:48
  maybe because it was out print for so long so hard to find but it did have a bit of a reputation
• 1:33:53
  as this like thing that all the cool kids know about miracle man and so when I finally got around
• 1:33:59
  to reading and learning about the history of it I was just immediately obsessed because there's
• 1:34:04
  so much to it there's the fact that it is there's something about how uniquely British it is that I
• 1:34:10
  think speaks to both of us you know you talk about this in relation to watchmen you could argue
• 1:34:16
  that essentially what watchmen is is an Americanized version of what miracle man was it's
• 1:34:21
  taking the concept and the framework of miracle man but applying it to American superhero
• 1:34:26
  iconography and to American politics like what that book is about like the Reagan
• 1:34:30
  administration and the Cold War in 80s America miracle man was doing for Thatcher's Britain
• 1:34:35
  five years earlier and to the history of British comics and superheroes as well the fact that this
• 1:34:41
  a dark deconstruction of a what was essentially a knockoff shazam clone published by Mick Angelo
• 1:34:49
  in the 40s and 50s there's something very uniquely British about it which for for me and for
• 1:34:57
  all I think add to an extra layer to it where it's it's relatable in a way that you get something
• 1:35:02
  extra out of it that you don't necessarily get from American comics that are quite politically
• 1:35:06
  socially outspoken and like you said it's more I think it's the quintessential Alan Moore comic
• 1:35:13
  I think if you want to maybe in the same way that all stories for for Morrison if you want a book
• 1:35:17
  that highlights the themes and ideas and the sensibilities that define Grant Morrison comic
• 1:35:22
  to go to All Star Superman if you want a book that defines what Alan Moore is I think maybe better
• 1:35:28
  than anything else you come to miracle man it's dark it's hard to read at times there's some very
• 1:35:35
  difficult moments in this series it's ideologically complex deep it's thoughtful it's introspective
• 1:35:41
  it's challenging it can it defies all the conventions of super stories it does not have a happy
• 1:35:48
  ending and and it's a real like you said that even maybe more so than watchman this is the thing
• 1:35:54
  that a lot of writers have followed like I don't think you get the authority without this I don't
• 1:36:00
  think you get the ultimate I don't think you get the boys like a whole generation of writers of
• 1:36:05
  like you are an L.S. you got vanish you mark millers maybe even more so than they are with watchman
• 1:36:10
  aren't but even watchman itself is aping off this in a way this is yeah I kind of created a whole
• 1:36:17
  new approach to telling superhero stories in a way that a lot of people since have tried to do
• 1:36:24
  but not quite I don't think there's ever been a comic quite like miracle man ever since
• 1:36:29
  no I I 100% agree and I think and I think the key there is that like so many people are playing
• 1:36:34
  in the sandbox whether they know it or not and I think that's that's the mark of how of its
• 1:36:38
  influence is like whether you know where of it or not you're if you're doing like sort of an R rated
• 1:36:43
  or you know and as an adult deconstruction of a superhero you're doing you're following in the
• 1:36:48
  footsteps of more and is artists with miracle man like whether you know it or not I think yeah the
• 1:36:52
  boys is is a great show as is the authority and I mean even like Grant Grant I mean I know Grant
• 1:36:58
  and Alan sort of have this kind of slight antagonism but I think Grant would be the first to say
• 1:37:03
  how much they love is that it more's miracle man and how much it was an influence and it was kind
• 1:37:08
  of one of the key things that got them back into the scrum of I want to be a comics writer zenith
• 1:37:14
  oh I think it was a huge debt to miracle man yeah you know Grant Grant's first sort of superhero
• 1:37:18
  serial you know sitcomic you know in 2000 D I think it was a huge debt to it I mean there were
• 1:37:23
  even panels from zenith that quote panels from miracle man like the postures of the characters
• 1:37:28
  and the poses and it's so gratifying to hear you sort of that we both had this on our list and there's
• 1:37:32
  so much to talk about with it because okay so I we say all this we both clearly love it but I think
• 1:37:39
  there are interesting things you can sort of pick it for that are very there is interesting as
• 1:37:44
  the things it does incredibly well and I think there are things about it that sort of don't quite
• 1:37:48
  work for me that I think are as equally interesting then the things that do so and this might
• 1:37:53
  actually I'll be very curious to get your opinion on this one because for me because you mentioned
• 1:37:58
  how some of the stuff that's in it and now it's very challenging there are some incredibly
• 1:38:02
  challenging issues and like they're very violent they're you know sexual or graphic they're
• 1:38:07
  political I guess the key one being you know nemesis issue 15 the issue where kid miracle man
• 1:38:13
  rampages through london and basically demolishes it and it's genocide what's interesting about that
• 1:38:19
  book book three because it's split into three books for anyone who hasn't read it it's split into
• 1:38:23
  three books and each one kind of has a different slew of artists and book free has John Totelben who
• 1:38:28
  does some incredible absolutely unbelievable work on it because one of the things I love about
• 1:38:31
  miracle man is the fact is the format in which it was printed with the fact that it was printed in
• 1:38:36
  warrior before the first two books were printed in warrior magazine this British sort of homegrown
• 1:38:41
  I guess kind of heavy metal equivalent using you could you could describe it as and you know
• 1:38:46
  more was writing miracle man and the fender in these sort of seven page installments every month
• 1:38:52
  and there's something so sort of when you're when you're working with seven pages something has
• 1:38:56
  happened every single episode and in those each seven page installments something has to happen
• 1:39:01
  the story has to move forward and what I love about the first two books and miracle man which
• 1:39:05
  were written in that sort of format is that it's so immediate there's so much sort of immediacy the
• 1:39:10
  plotting is sort of perfect the pacing is perfect everything is it's like reading or watching like a
• 1:39:16
  great drama like a great sort of BBC drama or HBO drama in terms of like it's serialized and
• 1:39:20
  something has to happen in every episode and the first two books of miracle man for me of that the
• 1:39:26
  first two volumes of it are that down to a tea like and the fact that more was coming out and doing
• 1:39:31
  this is just it's just one of the many things I love about it and it's interesting then when you
• 1:39:34
  get to book free Olympus which I guess is the most famous of the free books and you get sort of the
• 1:39:39
  miracle man issue where you know a destroys London and you get the ending which as you say it's not
• 1:39:44
  a happy it's not a happy ending in any sort of traditional sense it's very you know it's a very
• 1:39:50
  different kind of because it was writing them then in 24 page installments anyway yeah it's like
• 1:39:53
  I feel like I guess we're going quite nitty I'm going quite nitty gritty there quite quickly but like
• 1:39:57
  you can you can feel the format and the the the way the stories told shift and I think that
• 1:40:02
  that works in terms of like how miracle man's life is shifting I think it works quite effectively
• 1:40:07
  but it also means that those first two volumes have not only a very uniquely British approach to
• 1:40:14
  them because that's the way a lot of popular British comics that era were published in those kind
• 1:40:18
  of short strips if it's paced and published similar to something like a story in 2000 AD or heavy
• 1:40:24
  metal but it also means that it's so break neck like there's no wasted motion like every page
• 1:40:31
  pushes the narrative forward in a big way there's you know you talk about decompressed comics in
• 1:40:36
  the 21st century there's none of that here it is so it's throwing so much at you you've got to
• 1:40:41
  kind of roll with the punches in a way that you don't really see anymore in superhero stories
• 1:40:46
  not at all it's because I think that format of the 24 page comic has become the norm and it was
• 1:40:51
  the norm I think in many ways then but you had more anthologies then you had more magazines that
• 1:40:56
  sort of would have sort of shorter installments and I just think more more could write kind of
• 1:41:00
  basically anything at this point in terms of like any format you could write a 24 page comic or
• 1:41:05
  swamp thing he could do a five page future shock for 2000 AD he could do a seven page view for
• 1:41:10
  a letter or miracle man chapter and the fact that as you say it's propulsive the narrative the narrative
• 1:41:15
  never slows down and when the narrative is as good as this it's like you don't want it to slow down
• 1:41:20
  and then when you get to book free and obviously the format changes and he's writing those 24 page
• 1:41:26
  and it becomes like you say the miracle man changes like the character changes like he becomes
• 1:41:30
  a lot more cerebral his humanity recedes and it becomes this godlike entity and I think
• 1:41:36
  there's something beautiful about that and I love the lyricism of Wars writing in those last sort
• 1:41:40
  of six issues but I also find it it's a little bit less there's more distance from the main character
• 1:41:46
  who by the way you know like we say there could be opposite of also Superman I mean the most
• 1:41:50
  heroic thing that miracle man does in the whole run arguably save the little boy in the second
• 1:41:54
  issue who kid miracle man throws at the side of a building and miracle man sort of grabs him that's
• 1:42:00
  arguably like the most heroic act and it's in the second issue I also think that detachment from
• 1:42:06
  the protagonist while it may be a stylistic choice with how the book was published also works
• 1:42:12
  narratively where miracle man is getting less and less he becomes less and less of a conventional
• 1:42:17
  superhero and becomes less and less of a kind of heroic figure him bit serving as less of a
• 1:42:23
  direct peer of e character works so that when you get to that final issue where he's kind of it's
• 1:42:28
  set in the future and he's kind of essentially conquered the world and he's looking down from his
• 1:42:33
  like glass palace and he says like sometimes I wonder yeah I think you don't get that if you are like
• 1:42:39
  his if he is your eyes and ears throughout those last couple of issues because there is that
• 1:42:44
  distance by the time you get to the ending there is more ambiguity of his morality and I think
• 1:42:49
  that's whether or not that was the decision made because of the way it was published or were
• 1:42:53
  the more intended for us to be kind of more distance miracle man by the end of the book I think it
• 1:42:58
  really works actually when the book ends we were the character ends on yeah no I would agree and
• 1:43:04
  I think I guess for me it's an emotional thing I guess for me personally it's like because I love
• 1:43:08
  when I read it I love the immediacy of those first two books and when he was doing it in those sort
• 1:43:12
  of shorter installments and then when he gets to book free and he can basically do what he wants
• 1:43:16
  to do and he give him you know eclipse publishers gave him said he published the comics said
• 1:43:20
  we'll give you your classic 24 page issues it was it it works obviously you can you know he's more
• 1:43:26
  you know at the height and especially at this time was at the height of his powers really he was like
• 1:43:29
  okay this is what I'm gonna do and I guess I just I miss sort of that immediacy that I think you get
• 1:43:35
  in the first two books the immediacy of the narrative the immediacy of the characters in all it's
• 1:43:39
  not so proper but it almost at all but it almost plays like a great character drama that you
• 1:43:43
  would see on a play for today there's definitely like a melodrama to it totally and I think with
• 1:43:49
  book free like like say and I think it like say I agree what you're saying it works like the
• 1:43:53
  fact that he is more removed but I find that with like issue 15 so the the notorious the infamous
• 1:43:58
  sort of a miracle man issue because it's from his pv it's you that you have a bit less of that
• 1:44:04
  immediacy so like you are kind of one removed and yeah and there was something about that which I found
• 1:44:09
  was what was really interesting and also just so different to the the sort of tone of the first two
• 1:44:14
  sort of yeah I think that's a fair I think that's a fair reading and I do think it's true that you
• 1:44:18
  cannot you lose something with how the format changes but I also think at the same time you gain
• 1:44:23
  something else so it's it's a clear like stylistic internal shift and I can understand how it feels
• 1:44:29
  less immediate less personal but you gain not only the spectacle and the kind of the grandiosity
• 1:44:35
  of what's going on which works when the the third act essentially of the run is this big disaster
• 1:44:40
  movie but you also gain the the distance between the characters then becomes part of the narrative
• 1:44:46
  when you get to the end of the series another thing I'll say quickly is that obviously miracle man
• 1:44:52
  went on after all and more you have Neil Gaiman writes the series and then that goes into the whole
• 1:44:56
  golden age and the silver age and all the weird lawsuits with Todd McFarlane that kind of kept
• 1:45:01
  the character out of print for years and here's an interesting tip for you I've never read a
• 1:45:08
  single issue of Neil Gaiman's miracle man oh really never and obviously I'm in no rush to
• 1:45:13
  revisit it now with everything that's been going on for even at the time when I I love more's
• 1:45:20
  one it's one of my it's a mouthwash more comic for me but the ending is so poignant and so perfect
• 1:45:27
  I don't need anymore I would actually rather not know what happens to these characters and be left
• 1:45:32
  to sit in the ambiguity of it that even though I'm sure you know separate the art from the artist
• 1:45:38
  Gaiman writes great comics especially in that era I'm sure that him and Buckingham's follow up was
• 1:45:44
  was very good but I just had no desire like that's enough I'm done this is a perfect way to end
• 1:45:50
  this book oh no I'm so glad you said that because I I feel exactly the same way in fact I was
• 1:45:55
  thinking about this when I was doing this list which is just like I so I have so confession I have
• 1:45:59
  read Gaiman's miracle man up until the most I was buying it up until the most recent issue I think
• 1:46:04
  which I think was before the the news came out about Gaiman but I did I do agree that like the
• 1:46:10
  ending of Moore's miracle man is so perfect in terms of where it takes the characters and where it
• 1:46:14
  takes the ideas of the superhero there's like what more is there to be said no pun intended again
• 1:46:18
  like what what more is there to be said but the what that it takes it right to its concl logical
• 1:46:23
  conclusion it's like you know and like once you've and the ending you know is literally I mean
• 1:46:27
  I guess spoiler alert if you're not wrong man but like the ending that the main character creates
• 1:46:32
  a superhuman silver age utopia which is perfect in every way but is lacking in any of the humanity
• 1:46:38
  that kind of and that is I guess the suggestion of the comic that we're talking about I guess through
• 1:46:41
  about the different volumes is that it's about someone losing their humanity and becoming a god
• 1:46:46
  and you know human the ordinary man every man is destroyed like Mick Moran the you know
• 1:46:53
  whose Miraclean's alter ego is ultimately you know destroyed basically by by Miraclean
• 1:46:58
  and that's the trajectory and then and once once you get to that point that peak of like okay this
• 1:47:02
  is where this is the answer to this superhero question where is it to go and and I agree I know
• 1:47:08
  and I so I do I totally understand what you're saying and I feel the same way yeah no it's one
• 1:47:13
  of those and obviously with everything with that's going on with gaming currently with all the
• 1:47:17
  controversies if that's not inspired me to go back and read it no but there was a moment when
• 1:47:25
  because obviously he he fairly recently Marvel kind of restarted and he been booking them a
• 1:47:29
  finishing off the run there was a moment where I was like once it's done I would be interested in
• 1:47:35
  in reading the whole thing because I think that put me off as well the fact that it was never
• 1:47:38
  completed yes yes that it was okay once it's all done I can I can pick up the golden in the
• 1:47:44
  silver rate and I'll I'll finally read it on see where gaming takes a story but even beyond that
• 1:47:50
  like I just think I said more more than anything is so fitting and so perfect and leaves the characters
• 1:47:56
  in such an interesting place that it's like a great movie that doesn't need a sequel total almost
• 1:48:01
  totally totally and and I mean now that the controversy with the controversy surrounding
• 1:48:06
  gaming I mean like I guess we won't see we probably won't see the ending of it will be permanently
• 1:48:11
  unfinished now but like you say it was already permanently finished because you know more finished
• 1:48:16
  it perfectly so there you go you know but I'll tell you what this was this was such a pleasure
• 1:48:21
  I mean honestly as a fan of yours and as someone who is you know who really likes your work and the
• 1:48:27
  videos that you've been doing over the years this was so much fun to chat to you and to you know
• 1:48:31
  just to just and also just to get your sort of two cents on all the I'm like say I want to buy
• 1:48:36
  new frontier now I want to buy it right now because it just sounds so good and and yeah and I
• 1:48:41
  really hope we can continue this chat because like so we've gone for like a good long while and I
• 1:48:45
  think we could keep going so absolutely there's been a lot of fun I said I was when you first
• 1:48:51
  reached out I was really excited because I I felt like we had a similar interest and similar we
• 1:48:56
  would have a lot in common and the last two hours have only proved that we are two bodies and one
• 1:49:02
  brain I think it's been an absolute delight I've loved every second of it and I really appreciate
• 1:49:07
  the invite great well thanks again for coming on the show Owen and I'm looking forward very much
• 1:49:11
  to part two coming up soon we'll discuss our last two comics picks of our top five favorite comics
• 1:49:16
  that mean the most to us hey everyone thank you so much for listening to part one
• 1:49:29
  with my top five comics chat with Owen likes comics remember to like subscribe to the pod so
• 1:49:34
  you never miss an episode and stay tuned for part two of my conversation with Owen coming soon
• 1:49:38
  on half the picture