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JD Schramm: The conversation we need to have about suicide, mental health & communication · Speaking of Meaning

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  [music]
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  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to Speaking of Meaning.
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  SPEAKER_00: I am Ibrahim, and today I'm joined by J.D.
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  SPEAKER_00: Shram. J.D.
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  SPEAKER_00: has co-authored the book, Communicate with Mastery,
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  SPEAKER_00: and he has also created and led communication programs at Stanford Graduate School
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  SPEAKER_00: of Business.
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  SPEAKER_00: J.D., how are you?
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  SPEAKER_01: I am doing excellent.
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  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for the invitation for this conversation.
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  SPEAKER_01: I am looking forward to where it takes us.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm excited for this conversation.
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  SPEAKER_00: JD, tell us, who is JD?
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  SPEAKER_01: There are so many different ways that I could define myself,
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  SPEAKER_01: and sometimes it's by context, sometimes it's by function.
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  SPEAKER_01: For this conversation,
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  SPEAKER_01: JD is passionate
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  SPEAKER_01: about helping others achieve their dreams through effective communication.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that takes many different roles, both professionally and personally.
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  SPEAKER_01: But at the end of the day, what I measure myself by,
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  SPEAKER_01: did I make a difference and was I able
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  SPEAKER_01: to help somebody else Communicate more effectively.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's at the heart of everything I do,
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  SPEAKER_01: and I think that's the best way to define myself for your audience on this podcast,
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  SPEAKER_01: Speaking of Meaning.
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  SPEAKER_00: You've worked with communication for a long time.
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  SPEAKER_00: When did you discover that passion?
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  SPEAKER_01: I hesitate to say this
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  SPEAKER_01: because sometimes viewers may
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  SPEAKER_01: feel it's
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  SPEAKER_01: a little too bold,
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  SPEAKER_01: But I have never struggled with fear of public speaking.
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  SPEAKER_01: So in junior high and high school,
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  SPEAKER_01: this was my activity.
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  SPEAKER_01: I was a nationally ranked public speaker.
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  SPEAKER_01: I was on the debate team and the speech team did a lot of theatrical productions.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that was where I really found my element.
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  SPEAKER_01: But I didn't realize how much other people struggled with it until I got
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  SPEAKER_01: into college and graduate school and realized that I had
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  SPEAKER_01: a capacity
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  SPEAKER_01: that others didn't have.
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  SPEAKER_01: And if I could then turn my sights on helping people, Mostly with public speaking,
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  SPEAKER_01: also with written communication and storytelling, other aspects of that.
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  SPEAKER_01: But if I could take what I had as natural and help other people access it,
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  SPEAKER_01: that probably came halfway through my MBA, near the end of my MBA,
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  SPEAKER_01: when I realized this would be a career focus and this would be something I'd love
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  SPEAKER_01: to do.
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  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
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  SPEAKER_00: What do you hope the listeners will take away from this conversation?
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  SPEAKER_00: If you could only pick one thing.
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  SPEAKER_01: I hope that listeners would take away
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  SPEAKER_01: that communication is at the foundation
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  SPEAKER_01: of our relationships, our effectiveness, our ability to operate in the world.
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  SPEAKER_01: And if we can just make Incremental changes to how we communicate to get
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  SPEAKER_01: a little bit better on this podcast interview than the one I did yesterday
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  SPEAKER_01: and if the one I do next week is a little bit better than this.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's what we mean by mastery in communication.
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  SPEAKER_01: We don't need to set ourselves up to be a perfect communicator.
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  SPEAKER_01: We just want to incrementally get better each time that we have a conversation,
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  SPEAKER_01: we deliver a pitch, we do an interview,
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  SPEAKER_01: and that's what I would hope your viewers would take away.
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  SPEAKER_00: So it's a never-ending journey.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's not about being perfect.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's about improving incrementally.
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  SPEAKER_01: Exactly. And what is today's focus area and we accomplish that,
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  SPEAKER_01: there will be a new focus area that shows up tomorrow or next week or next month.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's not that it's drudgery that, oh my God, I've always got to keep doing this,
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  SPEAKER_01: but that it's something that I don't have to perfect in one moment.
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  SPEAKER_01: It can be a long game that I play to get better and better as I move along.
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  SPEAKER_00: This one I think is vital.
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  SPEAKER_00: I remember I interviewed another guest and his name was John Zimmer.
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  SPEAKER_00: And after the show, he gave me feedback.
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  SPEAKER_00: He said, Ibrahim, after every answer,
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  SPEAKER_00: you always start with, oh, beautiful.
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  SPEAKER_00: Oh, beautiful.
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  That's like a. Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it was probably because I was up in my head getting ready for the next question.
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  SPEAKER_00: And when he said that, I said, oh, okay.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so I went and listened to the conversation and it was actually true.
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  SPEAKER_00: I said, I started every question with, oh, that's beautiful.
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  SPEAKER_00: Let's move on.
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  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it is, just like you said, it doesn't have to be perfect.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's not about being perfect.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's about...
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  SPEAKER_00: Being able to not only give feedback,
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  SPEAKER_00: but also receive feedback and take it in the right way and do something with it,
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  SPEAKER_00: not take it personally.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah. I so agree.
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  SPEAKER_01: And, and even at the level that, that,
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  SPEAKER_01: that you're delivering at in terms of this podcast to take that feedback,
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  SPEAKER_01: take it in stride and then make a difference.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's modeling what I would hope your viewers are taking away from each episode that you have.
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  SPEAKER_00: J.D., why do you think we are afraid
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  SPEAKER_00: of getting things wrong when we communicate?
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  SPEAKER_01: I think at some level, Ibrahim, we have set up, many of us have set up,
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  SPEAKER_01: Unattainable standards of communication.
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  SPEAKER_01: We watch Ted Talks, we watch political speakers,
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  SPEAKER_01: we watch actors accepting Lifetime Achievement Awards,
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  SPEAKER_01: and we are unrealistic about what's expected of us as a communicator.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we can certainly learn
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  SPEAKER_01: from those individuals But we don't want to set that as the bar.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's where a lot of,
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  SPEAKER_01: at least the students and the clients that I work with,
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  SPEAKER_01: that often seems to be at the heart of their anxiety is, just like you said,
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  SPEAKER_01: they don't want to get it wrong,
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  SPEAKER_01: and they have an unrealistic expectation of what excellent or good looks like,
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  SPEAKER_01: and that shuts them down as well.
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  SPEAKER_01: Now, it's interesting, a counter-argument to that,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think part of what we have experienced with COVID and everybody working from home
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  SPEAKER_01: and even figuring out what our video and audio setup was going to be
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  SPEAKER_01: for this conversation today,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think we have realized that our standards Standards don't have to be as high
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  SPEAKER_01: as we may have once held.
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  SPEAKER_01: There's a very quaint YouTube video that feels so dated now,
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  SPEAKER_01: but there was an expert who was being interviewed by the BBC several years ago.
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  SPEAKER_01: And in the middle of the interview,
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  SPEAKER_01: his child came in and then his wife came in to take the child out of the room.
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  SPEAKER_01: People are like, oh my God, I can't believe that that happened.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then we went through COVID and we're like, what, only once?
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  SPEAKER_01: I call that a win.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I think we've been in and out of each other's homes virtually,
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  SPEAKER_01: that we've relaxed a little bit what some of those audiovisual standards might be.
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  SPEAKER_01: We also want to give ourselves grace as leaders and as communicators that, yeah,
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  SPEAKER_01: we will get some things wrong.
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  SPEAKER_01: We will get some facts wrong or we may...
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  SPEAKER_01: Deliver a story in a way that didn't hit the mark that we wanted.
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  SPEAKER_01: But if we see all of that with a sense of wonder and curiosity,
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  SPEAKER_01: how can I do that better next time?
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  SPEAKER_01: Or how?
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  SPEAKER_01: How can I undo what I did?
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  SPEAKER_01: Then it doesn't have to be devastating to us.
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  SPEAKER_01: It can be educational to us.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think people want somebody who is real, not perfect.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Authentic, somebody who is not fake,
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  SPEAKER_00: somebody who is honest with their feelings and maybe they're nervous and they say,
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  SPEAKER_00: hey, I am nervous.
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  SPEAKER_00: It was my mistake.
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  SPEAKER_00: Let's do it over again.
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  SPEAKER_00: I messed up.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think people appreciate that more than somebody who is just too polished,
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  SPEAKER_00: who is perfect and never makes a mistake.
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  SPEAKER_01: I absolutely agree with you
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  SPEAKER_01: that unrealistic standard of perfection is one
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  SPEAKER_01: that can actually get in our way of being able to be authentic and be connected.
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  SPEAKER_01: There's a wonderful book called Present Over Perfect by Sandra...
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  SPEAKER_01: I can't pull the author's name up right now.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'll look it up so that we could include it in the show notes.
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  SPEAKER_01: But I like the philosophy of,
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  SPEAKER_01: can I be present to the people I'm communicating with and reduce that expectation
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  SPEAKER_01: of being perfect?
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  SPEAKER_00: But that means you have to really work hard at just being present.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: Because I think we're programmed with, I have to look good, I have to perform,
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  SPEAKER_00: I can't make a mistake, and so forth.
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  SPEAKER_00: Especially when people are, when there's something on the line or when we are on the stage.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I want to acknowledge both sides of that tension.
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  SPEAKER_01: It is, I feel,
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  SPEAKER_01: crucially important to be present because And we see that through eye contact.
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  SPEAKER_01: We see that through listening skills.
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  SPEAKER_01: We see that through being able to engage in dialogue that is a back and forth
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  SPEAKER_01: that is much more like keeping a hacky sack up in the air than it is tennis
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  SPEAKER_01: that I'm volleying back and forth with the other person.
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  SPEAKER_01: I want my conversations to feel like a partnership in what we are discussing,
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  SPEAKER_01: not a tennis match.
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  SPEAKER_01: So that presence is really important.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I don't want to not prepare.
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  SPEAKER_01: I have to bring my A-game.
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  SPEAKER_01: I have to be ready for this podcast.
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  SPEAKER_01: I listened to several of your other podcasts so that I could get a sense
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  SPEAKER_01: of your style and the ethos that you build for your community.
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  SPEAKER_01: An entrepreneur may be able to show up for a pitch and speak off the cuff
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  SPEAKER_01: and be very compelling But the reason she can do that is
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  SPEAKER_01: because she has had maybe not 10,000 but thousands of hours of prep to be ready
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  SPEAKER_01: for that conversation to have it feel natural.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so we want to be present.
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  SPEAKER_01: We don't want to hold ourselves to an unreal standard.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we want to do everything on our side that we've done our homework,
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  SPEAKER_01: we've done our prep, we're ready for whatever it is that that communication task is
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  SPEAKER_01: in front of us.
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  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I think when you prepare,
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  SPEAKER_00: let's say you have an important meeting or you're giving a talk to hundreds
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  SPEAKER_00: of people, when you prepare,
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  SPEAKER_00: you're also showing your audience, the other person,
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  SPEAKER_00: respect because you've actually put in the time to prepare and come prepared
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  SPEAKER_00: to the meeting because you want to deliver and you spend time preparing.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's a way of showing respect, I think.
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  SPEAKER_01: It is, and you may not use everything that you've prepared.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's common that I will have more slides, more stories, more activities,
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  SPEAKER_01: more examples than I could ever go through,
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  SPEAKER_01: but I show up prepared so that I honor the person who invited me in and I honor
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  SPEAKER_01: the people who are in the audience or listening or watching it on video, you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: Days, weeks, months, years later,
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  SPEAKER_01: I want to be sure that I've done everything I can in that moment to bring forward
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  SPEAKER_01: the message that I had for that particular event, that particular audience.
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  SPEAKER_00: J.D., let's bring this into the workplace.
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  SPEAKER_00: What do you believe separates people
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  SPEAKER_00: who are good communicators from others?
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  SPEAKER_01: There are many tactics that separate good communicators from less effective communicators.
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  SPEAKER_01: But I think the characteristic that separates a good communicator
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  SPEAKER_01: from somebody who's less effective is focus.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think that encompasses the conversation we just had about presence
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  SPEAKER_01: over perfection
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  SPEAKER_01: and But I think focus also is clarity in terms of what's my intent?
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  SPEAKER_01: I know entering into this conversation, not what do I want for myself,
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  SPEAKER_01: but what do I want you as my partner in this conversation to think or say or do
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  SPEAKER_01: or experience?
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  SPEAKER_01: I may get distracted and in that moment I refocus and I'm like,
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  SPEAKER_01: let me get back into The point that I was going to make.
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  SPEAKER_01: I went off on a tangent there,
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  SPEAKER_01: but let's return back to the seven habits of highly effective storytellers
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  SPEAKER_01: or whatever my content is for that moment.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think focus is what sets apart a clear and compelling communicator
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  SPEAKER_01: from someone who just gets information out there.
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  SPEAKER_00: What about charisma or storytelling?
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  SPEAKER_01: I think storytelling is an excellent skill.
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  SPEAKER_01: When I think of the toolbox of leadership communication,
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  SPEAKER_01: storytelling is the hammer of the screwdriver.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's the one that you want to reach for more and more often and build that skill
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  SPEAKER_01: of effective storytelling.
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  SPEAKER_01: Charisma and there are subject matter experts
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  SPEAKER_01: and authors who really focus
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  SPEAKER_01: on developing charisma.
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  SPEAKER_01: My experience of charisma has been
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  SPEAKER_01: that it's
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  SPEAKER_01: less of a tactic,
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  SPEAKER_01: less of a tool in the toolbox,
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  SPEAKER_01: and more of a personal characteristic that some people have and some people don't.
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  SPEAKER_01: Some people resonate with, some people do not resonate with.
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  SPEAKER_01: Many people feel that Oprah has a great deal of charisma.
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  SPEAKER_01: Many people feel that Tony Robbins has a great deal of charisma.
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  SPEAKER_01: And there are people who are not moved by those two speakers and that don't feel
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  SPEAKER_01: that sense of resonance.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I've never set my sights on cultivating, developing, or...
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm coaching somebody to be more charismatic,
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  SPEAKER_01: but I certainly have worked on helping people to tell stories or pitch effectively
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  SPEAKER_01: or ask better questions or respond to questions better.
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  SPEAKER_01: So my approach is much more tactical in terms of the tools you can use,
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  SPEAKER_01: and I see charisma more as a quality but not
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  SPEAKER_01: something I've coached people around.
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  SPEAKER_00: So you think you're either born with it or you're not?
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  SPEAKER_00: Is that a fair understanding?
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm hesitating on born with because I do think people have developed
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  SPEAKER_01: a charismatic spirit, a charismatic attitude.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I'm not sure that I can align.
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't know that I know enough about this particular subset of the field.
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  SPEAKER_01: But I do believe it's something that speakers either have or do not have.
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  SPEAKER_01: And if they have it, they may have developed it or they may have a natural style there.
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  SPEAKER_01: Beyond my pay grade to know that piece.
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  SPEAKER_00: I believe when you see a speaker
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  SPEAKER_00: or a communicator relaxed, just like you say,
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  SPEAKER_00: focused, telling a good story,
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  SPEAKER_00: having my attention, that's what I look for.
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  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
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  SPEAKER_00: Whatever you want to call that, it doesn't really matter.
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean, to me, as long as that person is able to communicate effectively.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I guess part of that is to keep the other side's attention.
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean, as a speaker, you have to keep the audience's attention.
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  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, they're going to use their phone or think about dinner or think
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  SPEAKER_00: about their partner or the kids or the weather or politics
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  SPEAKER_01: or I think you're absolutely right.
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  SPEAKER_01: And to me, that's the quality of being authentic,
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  SPEAKER_01: being compelling, and again,
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  SPEAKER_01: going back to being present.
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  SPEAKER_01: And all of that, I feel, fits under that sense of focus.
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  SPEAKER_01: Charismatic...
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  SPEAKER_01: I think it's more of a judgment call that different members
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  SPEAKER_01: of the audience will see differently.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I fear that it's something
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  SPEAKER_01: that is more externally based.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I love to work with leaders to have them look at what's internally based,
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  SPEAKER_01: what's authentic for them, what's natural for them.
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  SPEAKER_01: Now, that may be a very charismatic talk
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  SPEAKER_01: or sermon or presentation that they deliver.
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  SPEAKER_01: Or I've seen some really compelling speakers who acknowledge they are introverts,
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  SPEAKER_01: who acknowledge that this is not what they most love doing,
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  SPEAKER_01: but they've got a message that they want to be sure gets out there.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so I think authenticity, focus,
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  SPEAKER_01: and presence are definitely more qualities I would aspire
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  SPEAKER_01: to and I would want my clients or students to work towards than charisma.
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  Here we go.
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  SPEAKER_00: JD, what are the most common mistakes we see in communication,
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  SPEAKER_00: especially leaders make and, you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: some mistakes in the workplace that leaders make and, you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: what do you think those mistakes actually do to their teams?
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  SPEAKER_01: I think the.
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  SPEAKER_01: The biggest mistake, hands down,
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  SPEAKER_01: that I see leaders make across all industries is being more focused
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  SPEAKER_01: on the message they want to deliver than focused on the audience who's receiving it.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so they can be more concerned
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  SPEAKER_01: about their personal ability to deliver.
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  SPEAKER_01: They may be concerned about their reputation.
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  SPEAKER_01: And many times leaders will have a message they want to get out there
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  SPEAKER_01: And yet that's not the message the audience needs to hear.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so there can be this dissonance between what the leader is saying
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  SPEAKER_01: and what their employees or their investors or their customers need to hear.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that's probably the biggest mistake.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think the impact is
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  SPEAKER_01: the group they're trying to influence,
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  SPEAKER_01: the group they're trying to communicate with,
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  SPEAKER_01: Then has an experience of the speaker being out of touch, or worse yet, tone deaf,
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  SPEAKER_01: to be delivering a message that doesn't meet the moment
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  SPEAKER_01: or doesn't meet what's necessary.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's probably, there are tons of mistakes.
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  SPEAKER_01: Every time I hear a talk, I've got a whole list of pluses that went well and deltas
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  SPEAKER_01: that could go differently.
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  SPEAKER_01: But when I look globally at them, it's not being focused on,
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  SPEAKER_01: not being audience-centric in the message they're delivering.
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  SPEAKER_00: And what happens to the receiver, to the audience, or to the team?
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  SPEAKER_01: Missed opportunity.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: They're not going to take the action that's expected or change the behavior
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: that has been requested or Or write the check or join the organization.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: It is unfortunate that we do not get
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: the chance to seize the moment
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: that had been there, that the speaker had, that the leader had available to him.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: Do you see this often, J.D.?
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: I do, and...
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: When a leader can get that, it's like a light bulb going off.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: It really can be exciting when somebody realizes
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: the difference between their agenda
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: and delivering a message that's targeted and centric for the audience.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'll tell you a brief story without naming who the speaker is,
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: but I was working with a speaker preparing for global talks.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: He's a gifted keynote speaker.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I listened to some of the videos of his prior talks and I said,
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: if you can shift from the stories you tell that you're the hero
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: because you had this insight or you had this idea to the client you worked
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: with going through a journey and coming to a new conclusion,
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: your stories will land better.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that sound you just made, that's the sound he made in the coaching session.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: He said, no one's ever told me this.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: I said, you're great.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: You're a colorful speaker.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: You've got great platform skills.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: But almost every story you tell, you're the hero of.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: And make the client going through that journey, let that be the experience.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: And the audience is going to want to work with you.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because you have helped other people move from point A to point B
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: by the questions you ask, by the insights you offer.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: And that little shift, he told me, and essentially goes, JD, that's gold.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: Everything else you've told me is good,
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: but that's the piece of gold that I really wanted,
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: and nobody has given me that feedback before.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's where I can make a real difference with leaders when I have the privilege
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: of time with them and work with them
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: that they're open to and listening for.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's a very good point.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: Don't be the hero of your own story.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: And people will connect with you because if you are your own hero,
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think people are not going to connect with you because...
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: They will probably think, oh, JD is so special.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: How nice for you.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: Or he's preaching.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: He's preaching again.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: That was a very good point. And I see this mistake too a lot.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: People preaching.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: I've overcome this. I've done this.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then without realizing that they're actually the hero of their own story.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's a very good point.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: Anything else, JD, any other mistakes you see in the workplace?
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think another mistake that I see in the workplace is...
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: Leaders need to be decisive, but they need to have their eye on the long game,
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: not the short game.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I have seen leaders...
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: Over-respond or over-react in the moment
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: to something that can be a challenge,
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: can be a difficulty,
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: but if I'm focusing on this contract or this quarter
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: or this sale in too much of a alarmist point of view,
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: I may be missing the longer game that's available.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I think What we need our leaders to be able to do is to look two years down
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: the road, three years down the road,
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: and almost like the chess player who can imagine three or four moves ahead.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's what our leaders need to be able to do is have us lift up and be able
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: to look at the long game.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: And there may be something we need to correct here,
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: but let's look systemically at the longer issues that this may be pointing to.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: If they don't do that, you can end up with a series of policies and procedures
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: and rules that are very much reaction to what happened in one given moment,
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: as opposed to a business that's built around a true north and a vision
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: that we're taking everybody towards.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where we need our leaders to step up the most, is to give us that vision.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: I love Nancy Duarte's work, which I think is remarkable.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: In her book, Illuminate, with Patty Sanchez,
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: she uses the term torchbearers when she describes leaders.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: And she says the leader needs to carry a torch and shine a light on the problem
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: for where we're going to go.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's the gift the leaders bring.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then the team works on solving that problem, creating a new product, changing a procedure.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: But if I'm too much in the moment, in the weeds, responding to things,
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm being more of a manager or an operator instead of being the leader
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: that is needed by so many organizations and movements.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: We certainly need this advice also in politics.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: Right now it's kind of messy all over the place.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have a lot of clients who are in the political arena,
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: but the difficulty of trying
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: to be short-term focused to win this election
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: or hit this poll number or hit this revenue fundraising number for a quarter
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: or a campaign
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: When that becomes the focus, as opposed to, what's the reason you got into this?
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: What's the reason you stepped into public service?
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: Who is it that you are ultimately serving?
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's where I think we end up with some short-sighted actions and communications,
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: as opposed to being more visionary.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: Take it out of politics for a minute.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: The former president of Stanford used to share that he was in the process
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: of making decisions that he would never see implemented.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: He was in conversations about 100 year land leases and 25
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: and 50 year future directions for the institution.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why he had a provost who was managing the day-to-day
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: so that he could be signing contracts and signing things
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: that he knew he would never live to see,
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: but that's carrying out the vision of the institution into the future.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't have to be that long range.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's really compelling, but it doesn't have to be that long range.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: But we do need to have a wider view from the leaders in our institutions
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: Than just what's right in front of us.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: The long game.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: The long game. Exactly.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: How can a leader create an environment
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: where people feel comfortable disagreeing,
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: asking questions and admitting mistakes?
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think part of it is you need to invite disagreement.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: When the College of Cardinals gathers to—actually,
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: it's not the College of Cardinals—but when the Vatican is considering ordaining
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: a person to be a saint, they appoint someone to be the devil's advocate.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: They appoint somebody in the room.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: To argue why Mother Teresa should not be sainted or Pope John Paul II should not be sainted.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: And someone does the research and comes into the room prepared to argue
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: the other side, whether or not they believe it.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: In politics, that's what a position paper is.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: What is it that the people on the other side of the aisle are saying
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: about our education plan or saying about our energy plan?
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I need to know that really well in order to be prepared.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I think leaders need to be able to invite
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: That disagreement and set a culture of,
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: I need to hear those opposing viewpoints.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: I need to hear, ultimately, the buck stops here.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: I've got to make a decision.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: But if all I'm hearing is the information you think I want to hear,
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm being disserved by the people who are supporting me.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I need to create a culture that invites that disagreement.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: And then I need to reward people Who make mistakes.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: Punish people who make mistakes, but say, man, Ibrahim, that was so great you took that risk.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: It didn't pan out for us, but keep swinging for the fences.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: We need to have that kind of energy if we are going to move this market,
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: if we are going to create this startup.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so I want to be, as a leader, inviting dissent and recognizing,
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: learning from failures, but complimenting people who take risks and make mistakes.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because at the end of the day, if your organization is not making mistakes,
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: you're not doing enough that's bold and making a difference out there in the world.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: You're playing it super safe if there are no mistakes being made.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well said.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: And if people always agree with you,
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: you probably don't have psychological safety and open culture.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: An important question is,
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: how do you handle people
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: who maybe criticize your idea?
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: Because you might say, well, I would like to hear what you think,
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: but then people really tell you what they think, and then maybe you overreact.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: And if you do overreact, people are going to remember that and not going
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: to tell you what they think in the future.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: How you respond speaks volumes in those situations.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think we've got to check our egos at the door many times.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we also may benefit
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: from being the last voice in the conversation rather
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: than the first voice in the conversation.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: It may be important that I hear all the points of view
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: before I even offer a tell
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: of what I'm thinking so that I can get those positions out there.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then I think it's also having
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: that spirit of iron sharpening iron,
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: that there is – we can have a spirited debate about this.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: We can disagree.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: Without being disagreeable, and at the end of the day,
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: we're going to make a choice and move in a direction.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: We need people to support that direction where we're headed.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: But until we've made that decision, let's get all the viewpoints out there.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: Let's get all the viewpoints in the room.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: And what often happens with the organizations I have the privilege of working with,
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: what often happens is that if there is enough of a spirited debate
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: and different viewpoints, and if the leader is saying,
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: but how will this play with our patients?
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: How will this play with our funders?
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: Do we think that our students are going to buy into this?
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: What would their point of view be if we get enough of those opinions in the room
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: to Ultimately, a decision gets made or a product gets launched
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: that was not possible
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: without that debate, without that disagreement.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think as leaders, again, leaders who play the long game,
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: if you can get that rich, robust debate, conversation, communication going,
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: you will ultimately make better decisions and launch better products.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think happens to team who might be afraid
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: to really tell you what they think because they are afraid of the consequences?
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well, in the short run, they become less creative, less engaged, less likely to contribute.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: In the long run, your star players are going to find a place where they can contribute.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: So you may win.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: But ultimately lose the war for talent because your best performers are going
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: to go somewhere that they know their contribution is being honored
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: and that they can make a difference.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: Even if they disagree with an individual decision,
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: if they feel like their voice was honored in the process,
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: they can become great ambassadors for a decision that's been made.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: But if they don't feel heard or they don't feel like they can speak up, Ultimately,
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: they're going to shut down and finally they're going to ultimately leave.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: Has been my experience.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: This is a big mistake, I think, because organizations lose a lot of talent,
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: a lot of opportunities.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it has often been said, people do not leave an organization because of a bad company.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: They leave because of a bad boss.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so how...
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: We who are leaders, how we manage and create the environment for the people
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: that we have the privilege of leading,
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: that tells us a great deal about that leader's ability in terms
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: of what they have created.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: What is that culture they've created with the team?
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: One of my favorite questions to ask in a job interview,
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: and I coach many of my clients and students to ask this question,
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: Not from the recruiter, not from the first level or second level,
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: but when you're in that final interview,
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: when you are with the person who may be the person that you report to,
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: ask them this.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: Who else is working for you here that has worked for you at other companies?
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: And why did they come with you?
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes...
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'll even say, who else has worked with you here that's worked for you
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: at other companies?
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: And can I talk to them while I'm making a decision about the job offer?
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: Because if somebody has moved from firm A to firm B to firm C,
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: there is something about that leader that makes them compelling and makes them
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: a good leader. If people are with their feet actually following.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: I had this experience early in my career.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: I had a boss, Mark Mishkind.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: I worked for him at three different companies.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: I worked for him at Ronkin, at Kaplan,
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: and later at Emind because he had that vision.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I want to be where you're going.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: I want to be on the team that you're creating.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that's actually, I think,
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: where I created the question was watching those of us
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: who would follow people like Mark into other organizations or other departments.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: Now I can say it. That's beautiful.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: I accept that.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: J.D., you told me the other day
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: that you have maintained relationships with people
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: who support the opposite political party.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: Now...
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: What have those relationships taught you about communicating
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: across not just differences, but deep differences?
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: Some of those relationships are family relationships,
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: and there is a love that underpins
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: and that transcends,
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think is a better word,
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: the difference in ideologies or political parties or philosophies.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so that is a category of those.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: And in some of those family relationships, I choose,
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: we agree to disagree or we choose not to have conversations
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: where there's nothing new on either side of our perspective.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: And what is important to us is that love and that connection.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: One of my sisters and I, we vacation together because we want our kids
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: to know each other as cousins,
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: even though she and I have different opinions on a lot of issues.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: Those aren't the conversations we have while we're camping or while we're at Disneyland.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: But beyond the family issues, I appreciate having When I was at Stanford,
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: having faculty members at the Hoover Institute who came
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: from a very strong conservative bent,
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: and I came from much more of a liberal bent,
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: but I wanted to hear things from them.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to be able to understand that point of view better
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: and not just You're wrong, you're different and take my distance.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: But wait a minute, what can we learn from each other?
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: Had a privilege of co-teaching a class at Stanford for a few years on political communication.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: And my co-instructor was the former communication director
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_01: for the first President Bush's White House in 1992.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_01: He had a vast amount of experience that I didn't have.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: But it also had a very different political philosophy.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: And our students benefited from seeing that the two of us could both engage
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: in helping them be better communicators and we could welcome both points of view
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: as having a seat at the table.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: So beyond the familial issues,
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's important professionally that we not close ourselves into a bubble
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: that everybody we're around thinks and sees the world the way we do.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: We need to have professional relationships and friendships with people who see
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: the world differently so that our viewpoint can be opened up
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: and can be more informed.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: Even if we don't change our opinion, we at least have a better understanding of that.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: Should we talk more about politics?
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: If we can do so civilly
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: and with curiosity...
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think much of what we are finding
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: in our very polarized political environment here
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: in the States, but also globally, we're seeing a great deal of polarization.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: But what we find is when we get away from that position
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: and we talk about the issues
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: and what's important to us, there is much more overlap than might be apparent
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: from watching the national or the global media.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: I can remember several years ago when one of the presidential elections
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: in this country went the opposite direction of what I wanted it to go.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I was struggling to make peace with that my candidate had lost,
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: this other candidate had won.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, who can I talk to?
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: Who would be able to have a conversation with me, not lord over me?
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: You guys lost, we won.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I had a former MBA student.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm actually a godparent to his daughter.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I called my former student, I called Ben, and I said, Ben,
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: I am really struggling to understand what happened.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: Can you help me understand it from your point of view?
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: And he was gracious and generous in talking about issues that mattered to him
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_01: and where he agreed and disagreed with the candidate who won the election.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: But we were able to have a very illuminating conversation.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_01: It didn't change the outcome.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: Didn't change my hurt, but it did give me an understanding that I wasn't getting
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_01: from my friends in Northern California who felt the same way I did about how
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: the election went.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: But this former student of mine in Detroit or in Milwaukee had some awesome insights
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: that I benefit from.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I look back at that phone conversation as just really...
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: Formative in our friendship as a former student, former professor,
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: that he was the first person I thought of and he picked up the phone
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: the minute I called.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to acknowledge you.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: I am enjoying this conversation
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: and I am sharing stories and having memories that...
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't had.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I love the freshness of what your questions are bringing out of me.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I appreciate your focus on Speaking of Meaning,
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: not only as a brand and as a philosophy,
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: but as an experience I have as a podcast guest.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you, JD.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: You have a lot of interesting and fascinating stories here.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: Let me talk about the last point you made, because I think it's very important.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: And it sounds like we need more empathy.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because when you called that person, it was all about empathy.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_00: He showed you empathy, you showed him empathy.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think empathy really means understanding the other perspective,
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: knowing where it's coming from, being curious,
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_00: not necessarily agreeing with it or feeling sorry for the other person,
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: but understanding, trying to understand where is this person coming from.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: We need more empathy.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: The problem, I believe, is when I think it's easy to talk about empathy,
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: show empathy, we need more empathy,
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_00: but then maybe you have somebody across the aisle saying, you know, people like you,
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_00: you know, are this and that, or they shouldn't be here,
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: or I'm going to limit your rights and so forth.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_00: Then it's really, really hard to show empathy or have empathy.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: It is not for the faint of heart.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: And it is much like we were talking about mastery earlier in the podcast.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_01: Empathy is something that I think we need
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: to continually keep building in an incremental way.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: And when we see ourselves lacking in empathy,
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: to be able to acknowledge that and course correct.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: I know there are schools
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: and organizations and curricula that try to teach empathy
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: and try to develop empathy, but that's beyond my expertise.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: All I can see is just what you said.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_01: I see the need for it, and I think I need to call myself to be empathetic
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_01: and then recognize when I didn't live up to that,
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: and I wasn't able to have the empathetic response I wished I would have.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: I had a situation yesterday with my husband where we both had difficult days,
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: we both had challenging days, and our schedules didn't align,
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_01: which then caused tension around just household duties and childcare stuff,
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_01: and he wasn't feeling very well, and I was focused on my teaching.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it ended up, at the end of the day, the day was over,
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_01: we were both in bed and asleep, and Had never had a chance to talk about it.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I just had like five minutes this morning that was just the two of us.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: I could say, hey, I don't think I was as empathetic as I could have been yesterday
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_01: when you were in this moment.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I also brought a Starbucks with me, which, you know, also helped.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: But I said, you know, how are you today?
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_01: And before you get off into what you're up to, You know, let me know what's going on for you.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: And he had the exact same response saying, I don't feel I was that for you,
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_01: but I couldn't put the language around it.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: So it's, again, don't have this level of perfect empathy that we have to strive for.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: Have it as an aspiration.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_01: And when we fall short, clean it up.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_01: Try to bring that back into the process.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I believe that then role models empathetic responses and From the teams
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_01: who report to us or the children in our family or the relatives we see a few times
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_01: a year, if they see us authentically pursuing empathy,
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think that is going to do much more to bring empathy
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_01: about in our world in small
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_01: but genuine ways.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you say, it's about practicing.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_00: The more we practice, the better we become.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think there's a point where maintaining
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_00: a relationship becomes more important
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_00: than winning an argument?
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, God, absolutely.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: And where is that line? Where is that line?
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: Where do we draw the line?
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think we draw the line
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: when we recognize in an argument or in a situation
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_01: or an ongoing conflict or a first-time conflict,
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_01: when we recognize that that desire
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_01: to be right is more important to us
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_01: in that moment than our desire to be connected to the other person.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_01: And that
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's going to be different with each person.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's going to be different with each situation.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to be different with each pair of people.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_01: But where the line is, is as soon as I am doing more to prove that I am right
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_01: than I am doing to stay connected, then I've crossed that line.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_00: Can we talk about your TED Talk?
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_01: You bet. I am happy to share more about that and I appreciate you bringing it up.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_00: I watched it. It was very powerful.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: It was personal, emotional.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_00: I was touched and moved by that speech.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: And also great storytelling, by the way.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_00: You talked about John in the beginning.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_00: And after a few minutes, you said, I am John.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_00: And in that speech, you talked about your struggles with addiction, depression,
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: but also the failed suicide attempt.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_00: Why did you decide
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: to Go public with that information.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I appreciate you giving this forum
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_01: for this conversation.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to acknowledge for viewers who want to go spend four more minutes with JD
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_01: to look up my TED Talk, which is called Breaking the Silence.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_01: It was never my goal To talk about this and have a TED Talk online for that reason.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_01: A year before this was recorded, I was at TED.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_01: And when you attend TED, you have audience talks.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_01: You can sign up if you remember the audience and you want to do a talk.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I had heard a very powerful talk in 2010,
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_01: a woman sharing about her struggle with a brain tumor.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I wrote in my journal, when will I tell my story?
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe next year.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_01: So my TED Talk started 12 months before I ever stepped onto the TED stage.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_01: When I did walk out on stage,
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_01: I did not know if I was going to deliver that paragraph that you just mentioned.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_01: I know John's story very well because you see, I am John.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because I wasn't sure that I could go public with my story.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_01: The point in time that I recorded that talk, I was six years into my recovery journey.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm now almost 24 years into that same journey.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_01: But I was still fairly fresh.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_01: I was up for reappointment at Stanford on the faculty.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_01: I was in a relatively new job, relatively new relationship.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't sure that I was ready for that.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I wrote the talk that if in that moment I didn't feel safe,
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_01: I could skip that paragraph and the talk still has integrity.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_01: Wouldn't be as powerful, wouldn't be as dramatic.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_01: You could literally pull that paragraph out and everything else I say makes sense
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_01: that we need more resources for people who are coming back from a suicide attempt
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_01: for them to be able to rebuild their lives.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's the thesis of the talk.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_01: I did it for a group of 200 or 300 people at an amphitheater in Palm Springs,
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_01: as I said, during a TED event.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then they asked me if they could put it up online.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_01: I was good with doing this for the people that I met Ted with this week.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_01: I am not sure I can walk into a classroom and have a student go, oh,
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: are you the one who jumped off the, like, no, I'm not sure I was ready for that.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so Chris Anderson at Ted was awesome.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: He said, JD, take the time that you need.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_01: We believe this talk will make a difference for people,
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_01: but you have to feel that you are ready to have that public exposure.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I took three months.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_01: I did the talk in March.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_01: And by June, I did make the decision to put it up.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_01: And during that three-month period of time, I lost one more friend to suicide.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_01: High school classmate who I'd grown up with, had not been in touch with for years.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_01: But when I learned of his death, I was like,
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_01: if the point of my talk is to remove the stigma, here is my chance.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_01: And we chose to put it up on the anniversary of my suicide attempt, June 11th.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that brought light and joy and positive energy to a day
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_01: that was very much my dark night of the soul.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't think I have experienced any negative consequences
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_01: from being public about my story.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_01: And certainly in the last five to 10 years,
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_01: we've seen a much more public conversation about depression, addiction,
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_01: and mental health through the COVID crisis than we had prior to that.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I was just a trendsetter.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_01: I did it earlier than the rest of our community.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm glad that I have it out there.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_01: And every month, almost every month,
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_01: I get an email from somebody who was touched by the talk or they shared it
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_01: with their son or they used it in class.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's slow and steady,
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_01: but I still hear from people that that four minutes on TED made a difference
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_01: for them.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that's worth me going through the discomfort of having the world know my story, my journey.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_00: I recommend everybody to take a look and watch that speech.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's a very powerful speech.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_00: Four minutes, but very, very powerful.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_00: JD, was there a fear you had to overcome before telling your story?
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_01: There was the fear of
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_01: There was the fear of what would happen after the fact.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I had to just be present and be, no,
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm having this conversation with this group of people in this space right now
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_01: in Palm Springs.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_01: After it was out there, there was a fear of,
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_00: what if I screw up?
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_01: What if I struggle again?
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_01: What if I've gone public with this story in a very
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_00: highly visible way?
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_01: What then if I have a recurrence of depression?
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_01: What if I slip in my recovery from my addictions?
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_01: And ultimately, I just have to live with, we only have today.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so I take my recovery and my sobriety seriously, 24 hours at a time.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_01: But all I've got is today.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_01: I can't future trip about what may happen.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I absolutely can't own how somebody is going to respond to something that's out there.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so the fears are there, but I just have to keep managing them
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_01: by staying present, staying focused, and...
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting keeping that long view.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_01: I believe this TED Talk helps the conversation about addiction and depression in the world.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for doing that.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for this, JD.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_00: In the workplace, JD,
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_00: people often hide their struggles
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_00: because they probably fear judgment, being judged by others.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_00: How can we encourage people to talk about what they're going through in the workplace?
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_01: I believe we need to be thoughtful about the advice we give to people in terms
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_01: of what they share in the workplace.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_01: I encourage candor and transparency,
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_01: and if you can comfortably share what you're going through,
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_01: it can actually make a difference for somebody who's going
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_01: through something similar.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_01: But that has to happen inside of a container of safety.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I've got to know that my team has my back
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_01: and my company is supporting me.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_01: And if I don't have that sense of comfort,
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_01: it's likely not a risk that is worth taking.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_01: Now, that may not be the environment for me to be in, but that's a totally separate question.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_01: But in the moment, if I don't feel I am safe making or I see somebody else who took
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_01: a risk like that and suffered negative consequences, then I would advise people,
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_01: do only what you feel safe with.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_01: Do only what you feel the environment allows.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_01: So to your question, how do we get people more comfortable in sharing that?
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_01: It goes back to the leaders of our organizations.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_01: Are you making your culture comfortable for somebody to be able
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_01: to share authentically what they're struggling with?
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_01: Are you silencing or tamping down
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_01: the rumor mills and the humor and the language
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_01: that makes somebody feel uncomfortable sharing a mental health struggle or sharing
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_01: an addiction issue?
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_01: And Are you creating a culture that allows openness and comfort around that?
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think it goes back to the culture that a leader makes for their team
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_01: and then the culture that a leader makes for their entire organization.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_00: Let's say you have a colleague and you suspect that they are struggling.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_00: How do you approach them?
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think a lot of people are just, they would like to help.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_00: They would like to ask questions or maybe give advice or just be a listening ear.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_00: But they're not comfortable with it.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah. Do you know what I mean? I do. I do.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_01: The beauty is everybody can be helpful.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_01: And everybody can offer a listening ear.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_01: And most of the time, what is needed from somebody who is struggling with any
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_01: of these mental health concerns,
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_01: many times what they lack the most is just somebody who will listen to them.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to be a counselor.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_01: You don't actually, the one piece you offered that I'll push back on,
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_01: you don't have to give advice and you may not be the best person to give advice.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_01: But all of us can listen.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_01: And all of us can support somebody to get the help they need,
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_01: to get to the resource that they need.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so I encourage people to not be afraid to go there,
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_01: not be afraid to ask, wow,
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_01: I notice you've been really distracted lately,
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_01: and it feels like there may be something going on that's outside of work,
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_01: but it's affecting you at work.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_01: Is there something you want to share with me?
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_01: Is there a way that I can be helpful in helping you find the support you need
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_01: or the resources that you need?
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it may be that I take them to a 12-step meeting that happens at the work site.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_01: It may be that I help them get to HR and get resources for the Employee Assistance Program.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_01: It may be that I show them how to use the cell phone to go to Crisis Text Line,
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_01: which is simply up the side of the phone, up your phone.
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_01: 748, is that 748?
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure I'm giving you the right number.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_01: It may be that I just, 741, 741,
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_01: up the left side of the phone is the crisis text line.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_01: Whatever it is that I can do that helps get you to the resources that will help you,
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_01: that's all I need to do.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have to be the expert.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_01: I just have to be the one who's your champion to get the help that you need.
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_00: It starts with asking a simple question.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_00: How are you doing?
• 1:02:33
  Yeah.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_01: And the follow-up question, how are you really doing?
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'd
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_01: love to hear.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because you're going to say, I'm doing good.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_00: But then when you say, how are you really doing?
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then pause, be undistracted, be focused, be present,
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_01: and give them the space to share what they're comfortable sharing.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_00: Again, back to presence.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_00: I have a few more questions.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_00: One question that I have is,
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_00: what can people do tomorrow to start their journey in communicating with mastery?
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_01: Set a simple, attainable goal.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then Make progress towards knocking it off.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_01: Don't set a goal to deliver a TED Talk
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_01: or to deliver
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_01: a pitch that gets $10 million in funding.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_01: Set a simple, manageable goal that lets you begin to see traction.
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_01: I want to get four calls next week.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_01: I want to have one conversation with a senior leader at my company about my vision
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_01: for the product that we're building.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_01: I have somebody that I'm working with right now and He said he shuts down
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_01: when he's around senior leaders.
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_01: I said, well, which senior leaders? He goes, all of them.
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_01: I said, no, specifically.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_01: And his assignment was come up with a list of five senior leaders
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_01: that you would love to have a conversation with.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's all you got to do is come into my next call with five leaders.
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_01: And in the next call, spoiler alert, he says,
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_01: Now let's pick one and what would be the conversation we go have.
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_01: So start small, start incrementally.
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_01: My husband likes to say, baby steps are great, but they're not small for the baby.
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so take a simple manageable and then achieve that and then set a new one
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_01: and then achieve that and set a new one.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the pathway to mastery.
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_01: We have never before been in an environment
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_01: where the amount of resources Online,
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_01: what's available in print, in courses or workshops or Toastmasters groups
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_01: that we might attend.
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_01: The amount of resources that are out there to help somebody begin to communicate
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_01: with mastery is more than we've ever seen before.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_01: Just begin to access a few of them and begin to move in that direction.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the first step.
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_01: And as you begin to see progress with that, then set higher goals, then set bigger goals.
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_00: Just get started.
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I hear you say incremental improvement.
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_01: When you have the experience of taking an email that was really poorly written,
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_01: revising it, making it more concise, a little bit of formatting,
• 1:05:39
  SPEAKER_01: better subject line and rescind it and you get a better response, it's like, oh,
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_01: I can do this.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to take small steps that allow me to build that traction to take bigger steps.
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_00: Without using the AI to
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_01: write the email.
• 1:05:58
  SPEAKER_01: AI is a tool in the toolkit, but you are going to, I told my USC students,
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_01: I teach one night a week for USC, and I told my USC students last night, I said,
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_01: if you over rely on AI,
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_01: you're robbing yourself of the chance to build that skill.
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you might get a grade on a paper.
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_01: I may miss the fact that you used AI to create it,
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_01: but you're robbing yourself of that chance to learn.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_01: There are some great ways to use AI to be more effective, to be more concise,
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_01: to be more compelling.
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_01: But at the end of the day, you've got to own what that final product looks like.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I had long seen AI just really as a tool to help people write better.
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_01: I hadn't thought about it as a tool for people to speak better.
• 1:06:46
  SPEAKER_01: But there are some great AI products that actually begin to monitor your speaking
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_01: or drill you before you go into a job interview, work with you.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_01: There's a great company, Open Recovery,
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_01: that uses AI training tools to help train counselors and employees
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_01: of recovery centers be better at their job of working with people
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_01: who are seeking help.
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_01: So there are some ways that AI can be used effectively.
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_01: But you can't send it in as the substitute for you showing up with your A-game.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_00: Just use it as a tool, but not as a substitute.
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_01: Not as a substitute and a tool among many tools that are available to you as a leader.
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_00: JD, is there anything I should have asked you today?
• 1:07:40
  SPEAKER_01: You have asked so many remarkably good questions.
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate the conversation, the dialogue.
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_01: I guess the one piece
• 1:07:56
  SPEAKER_01: that people often ask me is,
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_01: how can they benefit from what I do if they're not one of my clients?
• 1:08:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I do not see these conversations as a sales pitch.
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_01: I see this as a chance for me to offer free resources.
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so I do a newsletter every couple of weeks.
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_01: I don't charge for it.
• 1:08:14
  SPEAKER_01: I don't sell to people on the newsletter.
• 1:08:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't sell the names of people who sign up.
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_01: And the newsletter, it's on Substack.
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's just called Communication Matters.
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_01: I say always free, usually helpful is the commitment that I make.
• 1:08:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so I put one out today on how to moderate a panel and do a fireside chat.
• 1:08:32
  SPEAKER_01: I have one up there on how to overcome anxiety, how to tell an origin story.
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm almost up to 100 people.
• 1:08:40
  SPEAKER_01: Different newsletters over the last three years.
• 1:08:43
  SPEAKER_01: If you're talking about a baby step towards mastery,
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_01: start taking my newsletter or any of the other great communication newsletters
• 1:08:50
  SPEAKER_01: or YouTube series that are out there,
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_01: and you can begin to build that skill in small ways with stuff that's already
• 1:08:58
  SPEAKER_01: at your fingertips.
• 1:08:59
  SPEAKER_01: Just take advantage of it.
• 1:09:02
  SPEAKER_01: That would be the only thing you didn't ask me.
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_00: All right. Let me ask you this then.
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_00: Where can people find you?
• 1:09:11
  SPEAKER_01: Very simply, JDSchramm.com.
• 1:09:15
  SPEAKER_01: And there's information up there about the book that I've written, the newsletter that I offer.
• 1:09:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I have a lot of YouTube videos up there that, again,
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_01: are just free resources on a variety of topics.
• 1:09:28
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the best place to find me.
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll put all the links in the show notes as well. Excellent.
• 1:09:35
  SPEAKER_00: Excellent.
• 1:09:37
  SPEAKER_00: JD, my friend, one last question,
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_00: and this question is a question that I ask all of my guests.
• 1:09:47
  SPEAKER_00: One advice for a better, more meaningful life.
• 1:09:55
  [music]
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_01: Slow down.
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_01: Focus.
• 1:10:07
  SPEAKER_00: And connect.
• 1:10:11
  SPEAKER_01: We live in a world that we go way too fast, we do way too many things at one time,
• 1:10:18
  SPEAKER_01: and if we can slow down, focus on what's important,
• 1:10:25
  SPEAKER_01: and connect with the people that are closest to us,
• 1:10:29
  SPEAKER_01: That I think is the launchpad for a more meaningful life.
• 1:10:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a good reminder for myself to be sure I'm doing that today and always.
• 1:10:43
  SPEAKER_00: Slow down, focus and connect.
• 1:10:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:10:48
  SPEAKER_00: JD, thank you for this.
• 1:10:50
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for doing what you do.
• 1:10:56
  SPEAKER_00: Communication is an important topic.
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_00: We've talked about public speaking.
• 1:11:03
  SPEAKER_00: We've talked about writing.
• 1:11:05
  SPEAKER_00: We've talked about communicating with mastery.
• 1:11:09
  SPEAKER_00: We've talked about psychological safety.
• 1:11:14
  SPEAKER_00: We've talked about how leaders can create more healthy workplace environments.
• 1:11:21
  SPEAKER_00: We've talked about mental health as well.
• 1:11:26
  SPEAKER_00: We've covered a lot of things today.
• 1:11:29
  SPEAKER_00: And what I look forward
• 1:11:31
  SPEAKER_00: to is I edit my own podcast show.
• 1:11:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I usually listen about five, six times to each episode.
• 1:11:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I look forward to listening to this episode a few times.
• 1:11:48
  SPEAKER_00: Come back again.
• 1:11:50
  SPEAKER_01: It would be my privilege to do so.
• 1:11:53
  SPEAKER_01: I love the podcast that I've heard.
• 1:11:55
  SPEAKER_01: I'm now a regular subscriber.
• 1:11:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I also benefit when I read, you know,
• 1:12:01
  SPEAKER_01: maybe a few weeks or a few months before I hear this conversation.
• 1:12:05
  SPEAKER_01: Me of the connection we had and the commitment I have
• 1:12:09
  SPEAKER_01: to communicating with focus
• 1:12:14
  SPEAKER_01: and mastery in all parts of my life.
• 1:12:18
  SPEAKER_01: So you've given me a gift today,
• 1:12:22
  SPEAKER_01: and I appreciate that it can be a gift
• 1:12:26
  SPEAKER_01: to all of your viewers and subscribers as well.
• 1:12:30
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, J.D., thank you for joining Speaking of Meaning.
• 1:12:33
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely. Take good care.
• 1:12:35
  [music]
• 1:13:15
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening to Speaking of Meaning.
• 1:13:18
  SPEAKER_00: If today's episode helped you see communication in a new way,
• 1:13:22
  SPEAKER_00: share it with someone you care about, a friend, a partner,
• 1:13:26
  SPEAKER_00: or a colleague who wants to grow.
• 1:13:28
  SPEAKER_00: And don't forget to follow the podcast so you never miss an episode.
• 1:13:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Ibrahim.
• 1:13:33
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, better communication, greater impact.