Latest / Common Mystics / 122: More Voices from the Road- The Black Widow of La Porte, IN

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122: More Voices from the Road- The Black Widow of La Porte, IN · Common Mystics

• 0:01
  Speaker A: Hey, guys, it's Jill. Jen and I wanted to give you a heads up about the content on today's episode. It may be triggering for more sensitive audiences. Refer to the show notes for more specifics and take care while you listen.
• 0:21
  Speaker B: On this episode of common mystics, breadcrumbs lead us to uncover a chilling and sinister tale of a ruthless and cunning serial killer who lured unsuspecting men into marriage and orchestrated their deaths to serve her greed. I'm Jennifer James.
• 0:44
  Speaker A: I'm Jill Stanley.
• 0:45
  Speaker B: We're psychics.
• 0:47
  Speaker A: We're sisters.
• 0:48
  Speaker B: We are common mystics. We find extraordinary stories in ordinary places. And today's story comes to you from La Porte, Indiana.
• 0:58
  Speaker A: That's right. And Jen.
• 1:00
  Speaker B: Yes, Jill.
• 1:00
  Speaker A: You guys, everyone knows what we do. They know what we do. We drive around. We ask the spirit to guide us to a story verifiable, previously unknown to us, that gives voice to the voiceless. But sometimes when we do the research, because, like, the research is intuitive, we find another story.
• 1:20
  Speaker B: Story.
• 1:20
  Speaker A: And this is one of those stories. And we call it more voices from the road.
• 1:26
  Speaker B: You got it, Jill. Thank you so much for that explanation.
• 1:30
  Speaker A: Oh, you're welcome. This story comes to us from the year 2023.
• 1:35
  Speaker B: Jill, remind us where we were.
• 1:38
  Speaker A: We picked up Jenny B. Because she's the cutest Jenny on earth.
• 1:42
  Speaker B: Best friend ever.
• 1:43
  Speaker A: She's the best person ever.
• 1:46
  Speaker B: True, true.
• 1:47
  Speaker A: Okay, so we were gonna celebrate with Jenny, and we were going to the Zachary downtown, which is like a bougie hotel in Wrigleyville across from the stadium. So, yes, we pick up Jenny, and then we're doing like our little mini sesh on the road with Jen. We're like, okay, let's do this. Let's have fun. And we were in Oak Park, Illinois, and we're driving through the west side of the city, which is kind of scary. Not always. We set our intention, huh? And we got some hits.
• 2:18
  Speaker B: We did.
• 2:19
  Speaker A: We got. We got some hits.
• 2:20
  Speaker B: That led you to this story.
• 2:22
  Speaker A: First of all, I want to say the information in this. These pages are. Is disturbing. So just know that.
• 2:31
  Speaker B: Okay?
• 2:32
  Speaker A: Okay, Go over some of our hits.
• 2:34
  Speaker B: The most important ones that came through were Austin. Austin Avenue. That connection. You'll remember that from our last story, right, Jill? Story, episode 121 about Stephen Linscott and his vision of murder. Remember that?
• 2:51
  Speaker A: Of Karen Ann Phillips, her unsolved murder.
• 2:54
  Speaker B: Exactly.
• 2:55
  Speaker A: Goodness.
• 2:55
  Speaker B: My goodness. And so, of course. Yes, Jill.
• 3:00
  Speaker A: Jennifer.
• 3:00
  Speaker B: Yes, Jill.
• 3:01
  Speaker A: I'm looking at some of the hits, and you did. Didn't put all of them down.
• 3:05
  Speaker B: I did not put them all down.
• 3:07
  Speaker A: Okay, well, can I. Well, I'll just tell you.
• 3:11
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 3:12
  Speaker A: If you are in from Chicago and you're looking for creepy shit, this man's name always comes up. Do you know which man I'm talking about?
• 3:23
  Speaker B: I think so, yes.
• 3:25
  Speaker A: His name is H.H.
• 3:28
  Speaker B: Holmes.
• 3:28
  Speaker A: Yes. And we were talking about H.H. holmes in the car and about the house. It's just very scary, and we'll tell you why. But it's like a freaky Chicagoland lore. So he was on our minds because that's what we do. We like feeling the feels. Right, Right. But again, where he. Where his place was located in the city isn't there anymore. And it's kind of in the shabby area outside of where we were going.
• 3:52
  Speaker B: So let's kind of talk about what you mean by he's creepy. He had a place. Because I bet a lot of people who aren't familiar with Chicago history might not know the story of H.H. holmes.
• 4:05
  Speaker A: You know, I was thinking that in the car. I was literally thinking on my way to this recording, I'm like, is H.H. holmes like, on the tongues of all Americans or around the world?
• 4:17
  Speaker B: Because I wonder.
• 4:18
  Speaker A: He was pretty significant in. In Chicago lore.
• 4:23
  Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. Do you want me to kind of go over a little bit about him?
• 4:26
  Speaker A: Well, first, some of the other hits. Did you say Austin Avenue? We're discussing murder. Did you go over the Austin Avenue. As you know. Okay, let's talk about H.H. holmes. Because he was on our minds.
• 4:37
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 4:38
  Speaker A: And not in a good way.
• 4:39
  Speaker B: No.
• 4:40
  Speaker A: Who was he? Give us some background on this man and why we would be like, oh, we should freak ourselves out by feeling the feels over in that area, but decided not to.
• 4:50
  Speaker B: HH Holmes is often referred to as one of America's first. First known serial killers. That's important, don't you think? Like, that's notable. Like, he's one of the oldest known documented serial killers.
• 5:06
  Speaker A: I hear you. I feel like it's debatable because we've. We've covered, like, Samuel Mason. You know what I mean? But true.
• 5:14
  Speaker B: Let's keep going. But. But let's keep.
• 5:16
  Speaker A: I'm not here to argue with you. I'm not here to yuck up your yum. Jennifer.
• 5:20
  Speaker B: Perfect. That's what I like to hear. His name. He was born Herman Webster Mudgett in 1861. I can see why he changed it to Holmes.
• 5:32
  Speaker A: I am not sad that he changed his name to Holmes. That checks out. But Mudget is a funny name.
• 5:39
  Speaker B: It Would be a cute dog's name.
• 5:41
  Speaker A: Do you think so? I don't think so.
• 5:43
  Speaker B: I do. Maybe a cat. Cat or dog. Anyway. He is most famous for his connection to the 18th, 1993 World's Fair in Chicago. Huge exposition in Chicago on its south side.
• 5:58
  Speaker A: Big, big deal.
• 6:00
  Speaker B: It was called the White City.
• 6:03
  Speaker A: I was just gonna say that. Get out of my head. And it was, it was one of the first expeditions to have power and electricity. That was brought to you by Nikolai Tesla.
• 6:18
  Speaker B: Oh, and you meant to say exposition, but what did I say? Expedition. Different. Different. Close. Sounds similar. Not so close same.
• 6:28
  Speaker A: But I, I, I, I swung and you missed. I missed it.
• 6:34
  Speaker B: I will. I think, I think I'm right here when I say that the Ferris wheel was debuted at the 1893 World's Fair in Chicago, as well as the ice cream cone.
• 6:50
  Speaker A: Now two big first. Now you have me.
• 6:54
  Speaker B: I believe that's true. Okay, let's keep going. So during.
• 6:59
  Speaker A: Yes, Mr. Decided to change his name to Holmes.
• 7:04
  Speaker B: Yes. He built a building that he designed himself. It was a huge stone structure filled with hidden passages and soundproof rooms, trap doors, and all kinds of creepy which he used to lure and kill victims during World's Fair. And at the time, there were a lot of people traveling to Chicago for this huge event, many of them young women who, whose families never heard from them again. So, yeah. Thoughts?
• 7:55
  Speaker A: Well, so I think he's creepy. I think like, he sounds like Buffalo Bill. I remember reading the Devil in the White City, which is about HH Holmes. I forgot who the author was, but I remember that he had to keep hiring different crews to do different things on the house because he couldn't, say, give me a trapdoor and then give me a room that is like, soundproof. You know what I mean? Like, he would have to keep changing the. The licensed contractors.
• 8:28
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I remember reading that too. The name of the book is the Devil in the White City by Eric Larson. It's fantastic.
• 8:35
  Speaker A: So good.
• 8:36
  Speaker B: So good. It is nonfiction, but reads like a novel anyway. His famous.
• 8:42
  Speaker A: This shit is unreal, and it's really unreal.
• 8:46
  Speaker B: This building, known as later known as the Murder Castle of H.H. holmes, was located in the Englewood neighborhood on Chicago's south side at the corner of 63rd and Wallace. Now, fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your perspective, that original building no longer exists. And after H.H. holmes's horrifying crimes came to light, the structure was partially destroyed in a fire allegedly set by arsonists in 1895. Eventually, the remnants were torn down. And now There is a post office that occupies the site.
• 9:30
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Creepy. Yes, I, I. Frigging creepy. I feel like there shouldn't be a post office or any building on that site. It should have been like a memorial park.
• 9:42
  Speaker B: I think so too.
• 9:44
  Speaker A: It's really disturbing. Like, I get burning it down. Like, I'm not a fan of arson. Like, trust, like, I'm not trying to burn shit down, but if it's someone did, like, let's use the land in memory of the people that he killed. Speaking of, how many, like, what numbers are we talking here?
• 10:01
  Speaker B: Well, Jill, the exact number of people killed by H.H. holmes remains a mystery. And it's this ambiguity that makes his story so infamous because people are enthralled, kind of like curious about, like, well, how many people actually did he murder? I will tell you this. He did confess, and he claimed to have killed 27 people. But some of the people that he said he killed were found alive later. So it's like, really H.H.
• 10:34
  Speaker A: Holmes, you know, he, to me, had little man syndrome, if that makes sense. Like, he was, he was a good looking guy.
• 10:42
  Speaker B: Was a good looking guy. He was also charming.
• 10:45
  Speaker A: He was good looking. He was charming. He was smart. I believe that he went to Michigan University at some point. Yes. And. But the thing about him was that it was kind of like he had that narcissistic duality of like, I'm really good at something, but I'm also really ashamed of myself and daddy didn't love me. Kind of feeling like I could have been a doctor.
• 11:05
  Speaker B: Like, that's like, really, that's, that's how.
• 11:08
  Speaker A: I, that's how his energy came across to me.
• 11:10
  Speaker B: I see.
• 11:11
  Speaker A: But because he was so, like, good looking for the time, it was easy for women to just, like, be at ease. It's that whole Ted Bundy thing. Like, oh, you're hot with a broken arm. Sure it can help. You're like, run, right?
• 11:26
  Speaker B: Well, nine people were confirmed to have been murdered by him, even though he claimed 27. Nine were confirmed. And again, this lack of clear evidence, combined with Holmes's penchant for lying and exaggerating his deeds, see, means wrong. Means that the true scale of his crimes will really never be known. Like, we'll never know.
• 11:53
  Speaker A: I know the nine are confirmed. Like, we know nine just from the series of events that got him arrested. But do you, like, do you think 27? That's a lot of mother. It's a lot of people. But the way he created that house was a machine to kill.
• 12:09
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 12:10
  Speaker A: So I can see 27 indirectly being an easier number. Knowing that it wasn't like he was strangling them. He was, like, pressing the trapdoor, right?
• 12:20
  Speaker B: I think it's feasible. I think it's feasible.
• 12:25
  Speaker A: Okay, so why was he killing these people?
• 12:29
  Speaker B: Well, one of his motivations was collecting insurance money.
• 12:34
  Speaker A: Tail as old as time.
• 12:36
  Speaker B: In fact, aside from murder, one of H.H. holmes's most notable criminal activities was his expertise in committing insurance fraud. He was really good at it. He would use fake identities and forged documents to take out life insurance policies on people, often without their knowledge. And then he would stage accidents or orchestrate their deaths to collect the payouts, promising them a share in the profits. So oftentimes, it was like him and quote, unquote, partners agreeing to this insurance fraud scheme, only they didn't realize how brutal he was because he would then kill them instead of sharing the money with them. And so through the years, Holmes swindled insurance companies out of thousands of dollars, which was an astronomical amount in his time.
• 13:36
  Speaker A: You know, I look back at these good old days and think how easy it was to do the crimes, you.
• 13:41
  Speaker B: Know, without DNA, without cameras in your.
• 13:45
  Speaker A: Face and your phones everywhere.
• 13:49
  Speaker B: Eventually, he was caught because of an investigation into one of his insurance fraud plans.
• 13:55
  Speaker A: He went too big.
• 13:57
  Speaker B: After the suspicious death of Benjamin Peitzel, one of Holmes former accomplices. Holmes attempted to collect on Peitzel's life insurance, and detectives followed his trail of lies that culminated in Holmes arrest in Boston in 1894.
• 14:16
  Speaker A: Okay, so he's arrested now he's in custody. And is he like. Is he like. Like, what's his demeanor? Is he like, I'm the biggest, baddest killer ever? Or he's like, what. What are you talking about? I don't know what you mean. Like, what's happening?
• 14:29
  Speaker B: The details of the murder Castle emerged during the investigation.
• 14:34
  Speaker A: Okay, so he was flexing.
• 14:36
  Speaker B: He.
• 14:36
  Speaker A: Well, so he was. He was.
• 14:38
  Speaker B: And the entire nation was shocked. Ultimately, Holmes was convicted of the murder of Benjamin Peitzel, though he confessed to numerous other killings, as I stated, some of which remain unverified. And he was sentenced to death and hanged in 1896.
• 14:55
  Speaker A: How do you feel about that?
• 14:57
  Speaker B: I'm okay with that.
• 14:59
  Speaker A: I wonder where he was hanged. It would have to be Cook County.
• 15:02
  Speaker B: No, I don't know. That's something we can look into later.
• 15:06
  Speaker A: Maybe on Detours to see if we can find. If not the Myrtle Castle. Do you know what else is ambiguous? The HH it's nothing.
• 15:15
  Speaker B: Oh, yes. Yeah. Well, I'm not sure what it stands for. But the funny thing was, as we were looking into the Vision of Murder, episode 121, and Steven Linscott and the murder victim, Karen Ann Phillips. Thank you, Karen.
• 15:36
  Speaker A: Still on, still unsolved, Jennifer. The unsolved murder of Karen Ann Phillips. Because the. Of the Oak Park Police Department. Karen Ann Phillips. Say her name.
• 15:47
  Speaker B: Karen Ann Phillips.
• 15:49
  Speaker A: Karen Ann Phillips.
• 15:50
  Speaker B: Jill, As I was digging into Karen Ann Phillips and Stephen Linscott and that whole situation, H.H. holmes kept coming up in my searches.
• 16:02
  Speaker A: See, the thing is, is that, like. Like I said, if you're in the Chicagoland area and you're looking for murder, what do you get? You get H.H. holmes, John Wayne Gacy. Like, there are. Like, it doesn't matter.
• 16:15
  Speaker B: Yes, Right. But. So we knew it wasn't HH Holmes, that you and I just had a feeling. We're not talking about HH Holmes. It is a breadcrumb. And I think I found another serial killer, less known, but perhaps even more deadly and insidious than our friend HH Holmes, AKA Mudget.
• 16:38
  Speaker A: He ain't my friend.
• 16:39
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 16:40
  Speaker A: He ain't my friend.
• 16:41
  Speaker B: Nope.
• 16:42
  Speaker A: I rebuke him. Tell me what. What did you find?
• 16:46
  Speaker B: Okay. Are you ready? I am really psyched about this. Let me sit. Okay. You ready now?
• 16:51
  Speaker A: Okay. Okay. Okay. I'm ready now. Okay.
• 16:53
  Speaker B: Okay. It all came to light with a tragic fire that brought everything into the stratosphere in 1908 in the town of LaPorte, Indiana, about 68 miles from the modern city limits of Chicago.
• 17:15
  Speaker A: Okay, what are you talking about? What came to light? Tell me.
• 17:21
  Speaker B: There was a farmhouse belonging to a woman named Belle Gunness, and it was devoured by flames that night in 1908 in La Porte, Indiana, and the burnt bodies of Belle Gunness and three of her foster children. Sadly, their names were Myrtle, Lucy and Philip. Were all found among the ruins. The press initially painted Belle Gunness as a heroine dying in the fire that consumed her house in a desperate attempt to save her children. This was the initial narrative that was printed in the papers following this horrific fire.
• 18:10
  Speaker A: Well, what I don't understand. What changed? Because I think you said another serial killer, less known, perhaps even more deadly and insidious. That's what I'm here for.
• 18:21
  Speaker B: Shall I go on?
• 18:23
  Speaker A: I hope you do.
• 18:24
  Speaker B: So there was a man named Ray Lampher. L A M P H E R E. I really don't know how to say that, Jill, but I'm just gonna go with Lampfer.
• 18:36
  Speaker A: I'm saying Lamp here.
• 18:39
  Speaker B: Okay? Let's call him Ray.
• 18:41
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 18:41
  Speaker B: All right, Ray. So Ray was Belle's former farm hand and also her on again, off again lover.
• 18:53
  Speaker A: They are bumping uglies. Uh, huh huh huh.
• 18:56
  Speaker B: He was arrested with arson.
• 19:00
  Speaker A: So he was arrested with arson. And I'm assuming the arson that burned a farmhouse belonging to Ms. Gunness.
• 19:07
  Speaker B: Yes, ma'am.
• 19:09
  Speaker A: So he didn't.
• 19:10
  Speaker B: Yes, well, yes, he did. He was put on trial. And during his trial, Ray revealed shocking details about Belle's sinister activities in the said farmhouse and on the land surrounding the farmhouse.
• 19:30
  Speaker A: Real men never tell. So what. What do we got here? What do we got?
• 19:35
  Speaker B: Well, he claimed that Belle killed people and buried their remains on her property. Ray confessed that Gunness had enticed men to her farm with advertisements for male companionship, only to then murder them and rob them. I should have done that backwards. Don't you think I should have said rob them and murder them? I think we end with no murder.
• 20:07
  Speaker A: Well, no, because it's easier to rob them if after that.
• 20:11
  Speaker B: Oh, okay. Good. Yeah.
• 20:12
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 20:15
  Speaker B: Wow. No.
• 20:16
  Speaker A: Well, this is my question. Was he telling the truth? How do we know that he wasn't the one killing people?
• 20:23
  Speaker B: What an excellent question.
• 20:24
  Speaker A: Thanks.
• 20:25
  Speaker B: Well, these revelations, of course, sparked an investigation of the farm, where authorities unearthed numerous bodies and human remains, sparking a media frenzy.
• 20:43
  Speaker A: Okay, Ray, that checked out. But how do we know. How do we know that it was her and not you?
• 20:51
  Speaker B: Well, let's start by talking about who was Belle Gunness, shall we?
• 20:58
  Speaker A: Yes, but I also want to say that already, what you described, like advertising to come to her farm for companionship, it's kind of the same thing HH was doing. He was advertising that he had rooms to rent if you were attending the fair.
• 21:14
  Speaker B: Right.
• 21:14
  Speaker A: So I already see that correlation.
• 21:16
  Speaker B: There are parallels that you will continue to see as we talk about Belle Gunness. I'm so excited. Good for you.
• 21:24
  Speaker A: Stop it. I'm a pragmatic thinker. That applies knowledge.
• 21:28
  Speaker B: You're a pragmatic thinker.
• 21:30
  Speaker A: All right. Didn't I say that?
• 21:32
  Speaker B: No. All right, continuing on. Belle Gunness was born Brynhild Paul's daughter. Storsethrough.
• 21:40
  Speaker A: Again, That's a name changer. That's a name changer. You don't. You don't lead with that. No siree, Bob.
• 21:46
  Speaker B: She was born in Norway in 1859 and later immigrated to the United States.
• 21:53
  Speaker A: Welcome.
• 21:55
  Speaker B: Once in the States, Brynhild, AKA Belle, changed her name to Belle Peterson.
• 22:02
  Speaker A: I agree with that change. Even like Brynhill, isn't that Bad. Like, it's not a Brynhill thing. It's the whole series of Brynhill Paws. Dodger Sorth. You know what I mean? It's a whole thing.
• 22:15
  Speaker B: Yeah. That wasn't close, but we'll just keep going.
• 22:18
  Speaker A: Okay?
• 22:19
  Speaker B: Okay. So Belle Peterson worked as a servant girl for a period of time, and also at a butcher shop cutting up animal carcasses.
• 22:29
  Speaker A: Now, that is not for the faint at heart.
• 22:32
  Speaker B: No, it is not.
• 22:33
  Speaker A: Nope.
• 22:34
  Speaker B: She also had a strong physical appearance, and she was quite tall for the time. For a woman, she was 5ft 7 inches and weighed between 209 and 249 pounds.
• 22:54
  Speaker A: Daddy girl. She's snuggly. She juicy. I'd snuggle her. Yes, I would.
• 23:02
  Speaker B: In 1884, she met and married Mads Sorenson, who is also from Norway.
• 23:09
  Speaker A: I like the name Mads.
• 23:10
  Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good one. Bell and Mads cared for foster children since they couldn't have children of their own.
• 23:19
  Speaker A: That's nice, though. They're good foster parents. They're giving children a chance.
• 23:25
  Speaker B: Well, let's see what happens, shall we? I wouldn't jump to any conclusions.
• 23:30
  Speaker A: That's not a good sign when you're like, well, hold on with your happiness.
• 23:34
  Speaker B: Two of these foster children, Caroline and Alex, passed away while under the care of the Sorensons.
• 23:41
  Speaker A: Okay, that's not good. But it is like the 1800s, so, I mean, it could have been anything.
• 23:47
  Speaker B: Well, Caroline died in 1896 and Alex in 1898, and both of their deaths were attributed to a condition called colitis.
• 23:58
  Speaker A: Okay, I never heard of it. Tell me what colitis is. It sounds like arthritis.
• 24:03
  Speaker B: Well, it has the same ending, but it's really not. Not the same.
• 24:08
  Speaker A: But they rhyme.
• 24:09
  Speaker B: They do. Okay, so colitis, we know today, is an inflammation of the lining of the colon, and it can lead to infection. And bowel disease.
• 24:23
  Speaker A: That'S like the worst type of disease to die of.
• 24:26
  Speaker B: Symptoms?
• 24:26
  Speaker A: Anything bowel related.
• 24:28
  Speaker B: Anything bowel related is not fine.
• 24:30
  Speaker A: Especially in the 1800s. Bowel related in the 1800s. You know, got dirty up in that farm. Right. You know it was smelling like a farmyard, right? Yes, ma'am.
• 24:39
  Speaker B: It's not romantic, like consumption. You know what I mean?
• 24:43
  Speaker A: Consumption's gross, too, because they're close. But blood.
• 24:47
  Speaker B: But they, like. They're beautiful. You're beautiful. If you die of consumption, like, that was like the whole thing, because you get pale, you get thin, you're kind of raspy, and you have, like, very blood on your mouth, so your lips look really bright. It's like this whole thing, it's like.
• 25:04
  Speaker A: You are talking to me like a modern day Anne Shirley, and I have to disagree. I think I would. I would rather be coughing up blood than shitting out blood.
• 25:14
  Speaker B: True.
• 25:14
  Speaker A: So, right.
• 25:16
  Speaker B: So you agree?
• 25:17
  Speaker A: You agree. I hear you, but not because it's romantic. Not because it's like, oh, I think it's romantic. Okay.
• 25:25
  Speaker B: All the great novels about dying women, they all, like, have tuberculosis, AKA consumption. So. True. Let's just keep going.
• 25:34
  Speaker A: There's a lot of fainting going on in those movies, too.
• 25:38
  Speaker B: I think the corsets have something to do with it, but certainly, like, lung disease will also make you faint, you know?
• 25:44
  Speaker A: I will tell you this. All my years of wearing Spanx and undergarments that were really full, that I had to, like, jump to get into. You know what I mean?
• 25:53
  Speaker B: Exactly what you mean.
• 25:55
  Speaker A: If you ain't jumping, it ain't tight enough. You know what I'm saying? Anyway, I've never passed out from that. There have been times that I was, like, afraid that I might, but I never did.
• 26:07
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 26:07
  Speaker A: I guess there's still time, but you know what I mean? Like, the women in the 1800s were hardcore. If they were like, like lacing themselves up and then passing out, well, you know what?
• 26:18
  Speaker B: I can't believe we're saying. I'm going to say this, but the type of undergarments that you and I have worn are more tight around the hips, button thighs, like, that's our jam. Not around the rib cage and.
• 26:35
  Speaker A: Oh, no, not around the rib.
• 26:36
  Speaker B: Right, okay. Okay.
• 26:37
  Speaker A: Right.
• 26:37
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 26:38
  Speaker A: The waist. I should be more you. Yes, I should be. But, yeah, but I never did that.
• 26:44
  Speaker B: So that's the difference. If you start squeezing your, you know, your chest. That's not where I was going. If you squeeze your. Your lungs and your chest cavity, you're going to have a hard time catching your breath. Anyway, we are way off here. Caroline and Alex both died of colitis, abdominal pain, cramping, diarrhea, rectal pain, rectal bleeding, like you said. Also fatigue and weight loss. But all we know.
• 27:14
  Speaker A: Fatigue and weight loss, that could be romantic.
• 27:20
  Speaker B: All we know is that the medical examiner would have written that down as like. Basically. Basically, like gastrointestinal issues. We don't really know what their symptoms were, but it's really sad.
• 27:32
  Speaker A: It is really sad. And a lot of these symptoms, like cramping, diarrhea, rectal pain, rectal bleeding, like bowel movements that can all be poisoned. Like, I had food poisoning before. And like, all the above you know what, Jill? All the above.
• 27:44
  Speaker B: You are not the first person to make that connection. However.
• 27:48
  Speaker A: Really?
• 27:48
  Speaker B: However, Gunness received substantial insurance payouts for both children.
• 27:56
  Speaker A: Oh, my God. Who does that sound like? Who does that sound like?
• 28:00
  Speaker B: She had insured them prior to their deaths.
• 28:05
  Speaker A: Anyway, did anyone else in her life have life insurance? Because I would be worried if she was just like, guess what? The kids died, we got all this money, and then you're like, okay, I don't have a life insurance, do I? And if she was like, oh, you do. You do, then I would be moving out.
• 28:23
  Speaker B: Yeah, he did. Mads had a life insurance policy and.
• 28:26
  Speaker A: Had you in trouble.
• 28:28
  Speaker B: Now Belle was all, mads, your life insurance policy is not big enough. Look at how people just be dying around here. So she was like, you need to purchase another life insurance policy on top of the other one.
• 28:44
  Speaker A: Absolutely not, bitch. No, you wrong. She just got the life insurance out of two kids, and now she's like, you need a hefty double down on that life insurance. I would be like, no. And I'm wondering, did she have life insurance out on herself?
• 28:57
  Speaker B: I don't know.
• 28:58
  Speaker A: Because that would be also suspicious if, like, she's all worried about an accident but, like, doesn't ensure herself.
• 29:03
  Speaker B: I think it's fishy, too. But Belle was. She must have been very persuasive, because Mads did it. He finally got another life insurance policy. And here is the funniest thing about it.
• 29:19
  Speaker A: Keep saying funny, but I'm. I'm lacking in the humor.
• 29:22
  Speaker B: Well, not haha funny, but, like, peculiar funny.
• 29:26
  Speaker A: Okay, that makes sense. Peculiar.
• 29:28
  Speaker B: The two life insurance policies, the old one that was smaller and the large one that was new overlapped on one day.
• 29:39
  Speaker A: One. No, she didn't.
• 29:42
  Speaker B: One day where they were both in effect. And guess what? Mads died on that day. The one day when both policies were both in effect. I'm not even kidding.
• 29:57
  Speaker A: Okay, Belle, girl, you wrong. You know you're wrong. What are you doing? Oh, my God. Poor Mads. Do you think that she just harassed? Asked him enough like. Like, you need to do this. You need to do this. You need to do this. You need to, like. Yeah, literally, I would do like I need.
• 30:12
  Speaker B: I do. And I also think that the fact that they overlapped by one day meant that she'd got it done in the nick of time.
• 30:21
  Speaker A: Well, a next question is, how did he die? Was he.
• 30:24
  Speaker B: Great question. So they investigated this. Belle was questioned. Belle was questioned about what happened. And she reported that Mads had come home with a headache. And Bell gave him some quinine powder to ease the pain. Later, she checked on him and found him dead. And his cause of death was a cerebral hemorrhage.
• 30:47
  Speaker A: How would she know that? She wouldn't know that. Like, that's pretty fishy.
• 30:54
  Speaker B: Well, the cause of death was found to be a cerebral hemorrhage. She was just like, I don't know what happened. He had a headache. I gave him some medicine, and I found him dead.
• 31:02
  Speaker A: So Belle used the insurance money from her husband's death to purchase what?
• 31:07
  Speaker B: A pig farm. A pig farm in La Porte, Indiana, where she moved in November 1901 with three foster children.
• 31:19
  Speaker A: She wasn't living there when all that shit happened.
• 31:21
  Speaker B: No, she was not.
• 31:23
  Speaker A: So then she moves to the farm?
• 31:24
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 31:25
  Speaker A: Where they found a lot other bodies.
• 31:28
  Speaker B: Jenny, Myrtle and Lucy were the three foster children. So she moved her three living foster children to a pig farm in La porte, Indiana, in November, 1901. Now, Jill, Jennifer, she. She needs a man. She can't be.
• 31:46
  Speaker A: She actually. I mean, I'm not even gonna lie. I'm good. I'm good. I ain't trying to catch nothing. I'm fine.
• 31:55
  Speaker B: She was looking for a man to help her out on this pig farm. Pig farming has to be physically taxing. That's a lot of work.
• 32:05
  Speaker A: They're kind of scary.
• 32:06
  Speaker B: They are scary and dangerous. Okay, so after settling in laporte, Belle married a widower named Peter Gunness in April of 1902. His wife.
• 32:20
  Speaker A: Not a long time.
• 32:21
  Speaker B: No, his wife had just recently passed away, leaving him with two young daughters.
• 32:27
  Speaker A: So now she has five kids?
• 32:29
  Speaker B: Yes. One week after Belle and Peter's marriage, Peter's youngest daughter died under mysterious circumstances while Peter wasn't home.
• 32:44
  Speaker A: That's up.
• 32:47
  Speaker B: Now, Peter, her husband, died eight months later from a skull injury.
• 32:55
  Speaker A: Any red flags yet? Are you serious?
• 32:59
  Speaker B: Investigators did question Belle, and she informed them that Peter had been accidentally struck in the back of the head by a sausage grinder.
• 33:09
  Speaker A: Jesus. Are you kidding me?
• 33:16
  Speaker B: I hate it when that happens.
• 33:18
  Speaker A: Oh, my God.
• 33:19
  Speaker B: I hate it when someone is flinging around a sausage grinder.
• 33:23
  Speaker A: You know how many it gets. Sausage. Sausage grinders that you have in your house? And you know how many times I think of myself as I'm walking around like, whoosh, dodged, that one.
• 33:34
  Speaker B: Has this ever happened to you?
• 33:37
  Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. I do not even. I think I can picture what a sausage grinder looks like, but I'm not really sure. And why? You know what?
• 33:46
  Speaker B: Our grandmother had one. I think I still have it in my garage. It is. That checks out. It is a. It is a. It is a heavy cylinder with a crank on one end. Yes.
• 34:00
  Speaker A: It looks like a bicycle.
• 34:01
  Speaker B: Yes. And a clamp that clamps onto the table. So it clamps onto the table and you turn it. And it's heavy. It is heavy.
• 34:09
  Speaker A: So how can you accidentally get hit in the head with it? Like, because. I mean. No, I'm serious. Because it's not like something you swing. It's not like a hammer or an axe. Right.
• 34:17
  Speaker B: Well, Belle had a story.
• 34:19
  Speaker A: Oh, tell me her story.
• 34:20
  Speaker B: She explained that Peter was reaching for something on a high shelf and the sausage grinder fell on him, smashing his skull. Which psa. Never keep your sausage grinders on the top shelf. So many words of wisdom in this one. I mean, keep them on the low shelf.
• 34:45
  Speaker A: Gosh, I feel so bad, but this is horrible. But the police. Really?
• 34:51
  Speaker B: Again, guys, Belle reportedly collected $3,000 of insurance money on Peter's death.
• 34:58
  Speaker A: That's a lot of money.
• 35:00
  Speaker B: That is a lot of money.
• 35:01
  Speaker A: I take that money today.
• 35:02
  Speaker B: That would be really helpful today. And back then, that was a small fortune. Anyway, this is her, what, her fourth.
• 35:09
  Speaker A: Her fourth policy? Plus the. Maybe fifth if the other daughter had one.
• 35:13
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 35:14
  Speaker A: Damn. Belle, girl, stop it.
• 35:17
  Speaker B: Shortly after Peter passed away, Belle started placing advertisements in several Midwestern Norwegian language newspapers.
• 35:27
  Speaker A: Romantic language.
• 35:29
  Speaker B: These ads sought a dependable man to run her farm. Now, while the exact number of respondents remains unknown, a significant number of men were enticed by the offer and traveled to LaPorte, Indiana, to meet Belle and to see her farm. Yeah, so it's kind of like.
• 35:54
  Speaker A: Gosh, it's kind of like Craigslist.
• 35:57
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 35:58
  Speaker A: Like, looking for a roommate, you know? And they're like, okay, let me trot on down there. And these people were coming from far away. You have here. A Wisconsin farmhand came.
• 36:09
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 36:09
  Speaker A: That's a long. That's a long horse carriage ride. Or a horse ride.
• 36:14
  Speaker B: Well, she was looking like in the greater Midwest area, so. Settlements in the Midwest. So in 1905, Gunness began placing marriage advertisements in the newspapers.
• 36:27
  Speaker A: Girl. Girl.
• 36:29
  Speaker B: So now we're going from Craigslist to E. Harmony. There you go. A Wisconsin farmhand.
• 36:37
  Speaker A: Or the want ads want a husband. Christian singles. Farmers only.
• 36:44
  Speaker B: Farmers Only.
• 36:45
  Speaker A: That's a funny one. That's. That's the one she was on. Farmers only. She was.
• 36:49
  Speaker B: She invented Farmers Only.
• 36:51
  Speaker A: She was the first Farmer Only. Okay.
• 36:56
  Speaker B: A Wisconsin farmhand named Henry Gerholtz responded to one of these ads, and he traveled to laporte. Do you think she sent him her picture.
• 37:08
  Speaker A: Do you. If he. If she did send a picture, do you think she sent a current picture?
• 37:14
  Speaker B: No, absolutely not.
• 37:16
  Speaker A: Like a Facebook profile picture from, like, 19, like, whatever.
• 37:22
  Speaker B: 1890.
• 37:23
  Speaker A: Yeah. Like, she straight up had a glamorous tin shot, you know what I mean?
• 37:28
  Speaker B: Huh. So he wrote to his family expressing his approval of the farm and his good health and asked them to send him seed potatoes. So he went to the farm. He was like. He met Bella, and he's like, all right, she ain't bad. He, like, looked at the farm and everything, and he wrote his family saying, send me potato seeds. This is a good deal. I think I'm gonna stay well.
• 37:53
  Speaker A: So this is like, the first love is blind, too. Like, Bella's a first.
• 37:57
  Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
• 37:58
  Speaker A: Because she was like, marry me. And then he hadn't seen her yet, so he tried it on down there, and he was like, yes, I do. I say, yes. Bring me my potato seeds.
• 38:07
  Speaker B: Exactly. She's a pioneer in so many ways.
• 38:12
  Speaker A: So many ways.
• 38:13
  Speaker B: Well, suddenly his family in Wisconsin stops hearing from him, and they contacted Gunness. They're like, yeah, we know that he was on your farm.
• 38:25
  Speaker A: And have you heard from Henry lately? I sent him a bunch of potato seeds.
• 38:30
  Speaker B: And she informed them that Henry had left for Chicago with horse traders. But funny thing, Gunna still had his trunk and his overcoat and his belongings. Interesting horse.
• 38:45
  Speaker A: Horse traders, huh?
• 38:47
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 38:48
  Speaker A: I just.
• 38:49
  Speaker B: I. I don't know.
• 38:51
  Speaker A: It's a weird lie to run off with horse traders.
• 38:54
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
• 38:54
  Speaker A: Like the goddamn horse traders again. You know what I mean?
• 38:58
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 38:59
  Speaker A: She should have said he went out for tobacco and he just never came home.
• 39:03
  Speaker B: Then in 1906, a man named John Moe of Minnesota responded to a newspaper advertisement that Bell placed.
• 39:12
  Speaker A: That's far.
• 39:13
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 39:14
  Speaker A: How is she getting these. How is she getting these ads in these papers so far away?
• 39:18
  Speaker B: I have no idea. I have no idea.
• 39:20
  Speaker A: Such a great question. It's not like she's, like, uploading some shit, you know what I mean? Like, is she writing letters? And how does she know. She must be like, is there an index of, like, newspapers? Like, how does she know that in nowhere, Minnesota there's a newspaper that she can write to? Even, like, how does she get that address?
• 39:41
  Speaker B: She must have been mighty resourceful.
• 39:43
  Speaker A: Mighty, mighty resourceful. Yes, indeed, Jennifer.
• 39:47
  Speaker B: So John Moe of Minnesota responds to one of her ads. After several months of correspondence. Several months in the pods, mo traveled to LaPorte, Indiana, and withdrew a large sum of money from the bank. He was never seen or heard from again. But a carpenter who occasionally worked on Belle Gunness's farm did note that Mo's trunk, along with more than a dozen others, were all in her home. Belle. More than a dozen trunks.
• 40:37
  Speaker A: You are so wrong. What are you doing? First of all, are they like tokens? Why aren't you burying the trunks or burning the trunks? What are you doing?
• 40:47
  Speaker B: That's a really good question.
• 40:48
  Speaker A: Like, his overcoat and his trunk should be gone too. Like, girl, I was really impressed by you. But if you're not burying the trunks or getting rid of them, like, what are you doing? At least sell them. You're putting ads in the paper. Sell them. Marketplace that. Anyway, another man.
• 41:08
  Speaker B: Another man. Andrew.
• 41:09
  Speaker A: Another man.
• 41:10
  Speaker B: Hellig. Oh, geez. Here's another name that I'm not sure.
• 41:13
  Speaker A: Can I try it?
• 41:14
  Speaker B: Absolutely not. Okay.
• 41:15
  Speaker A: No. Because I'll tell you, I'll never get it right. And it's not because I'm not trying. It's hell. Gel in.
• 41:26
  Speaker B: I mean, I couldn't do any better. Hell. Julian.
• 41:30
  Speaker A: Norwegian.
• 41:30
  Speaker B: He's Norwegian. It's a Norwegian name. Hell, we're going to call him Andrew because we're not sure what his last name is. So Andrew Helge Lean, a Norwegian farmer from Aberdeen, South Dakota.
• 41:43
  Speaker A: She just keeps getting farther and farther out.
• 41:46
  Speaker B: Contacted her and it seems like. Jill, Andrew and Belle formed a relationship that would last for several years.
• 41:58
  Speaker A: I wonder what his magic sauce was.
• 42:00
  Speaker B: One wonders. Belle employed several hired hands in the meanwhile to help around on her farm over the years. And Ray, Remember Ray from the beginning, Ray, the arson. Okay, that I thought that he was.
• 42:15
  Speaker A: Putting all this on her, and then it turns out like. No, no, she. She done it.
• 42:20
  Speaker B: Exactly. Ray, hired in August 1907, actually fell in love with Belle. And he hoped to marry her and become a true partner on the farm.
• 42:30
  Speaker A: I have to tell you, I kind of love that this little chubby woman is getting all this heat. You know what I mean? Like, she's getting plenty. Plenty of. Plenty of men are like in on that. You know what I mean?
• 42:44
  Speaker B: That's true. She had something.
• 42:46
  Speaker A: She. She must have body language. I tell you what. Them curves. Them curves.
• 42:52
  Speaker B: Then In January of 1908, Andrew held Helgeline. Andrew visited Belle in Laporte for two weeks. And Ray got super jealous.
• 43:07
  Speaker A: Fight.
• 43:09
  Speaker B: During his visit, Andrew had money sent from his bank in Aberdeen, South Dakota, to the First national bank in Laporte, Indiana. And then he and Belle went together to the bank in Laporte. And Bell was like, we have to take all the money out in cash. And Andrew's like, but we don't. And the bank teller's like, yeah, no, you really don't. It's smarter to keep some here. But Bell insisted. Insisted and would not take no for an answer. And so all the money was taken out in cash. Andrew left the next day and did not return to South Dakota, causing his brother Asal to become concerned.
• 43:59
  Speaker A: Andrew. Andrew.
• 44:02
  Speaker B: Seems like Andrew made a mistake.
• 44:05
  Speaker A: A couple.
• 44:06
  Speaker B: A couple mistakes. Yeah. Have all of us. You know, these kind of scams still happen today.
• 44:12
  Speaker A: No, I know, but they're usually from, like, an Asian prince.
• 44:16
  Speaker B: Exactly.
• 44:16
  Speaker A: Or an African prince. You know what I mean? Right, right. Like, he just needs your money.
• 44:20
  Speaker B: Not a widow. Not. Yeah, exactly. Not a widow in South Dakota.
• 44:24
  Speaker A: So, like, was she, like, I just don't understand. Like, I can't get my husband to do anything. Like, I don't understand. Like, what?
• 44:33
  Speaker B: Like, what was her magic?
• 44:35
  Speaker A: Yeah. Like, what was the tactic? What did you do, Belle? Speak to me.
• 44:40
  Speaker B: So Andrew disappears after he transfers all of his money to this bank in Laporte. He disappears. His family doesn't hear from him. But his brother Aysel became concerned. And Asel starts writing these mad letters to Belle, and he's writing letters to the bank, and he's writing letters to Bell, and he's like, where is my brother? I know.
• 45:02
  Speaker A: This is the first Twitter, huh?
• 45:04
  Speaker B: Huh? Exactly. The bank confirmed that Andrew was there, but Bell simply stated, oh, he just left. He just left town.
• 45:15
  Speaker A: Where's his trunk? Where's his trunk, Belle? Where's his trunk?
• 45:20
  Speaker B: I think you know the answer to that question, Jill. Don't insult her. Then, in February 1908, Belle fired Ray.
• 45:31
  Speaker A: No.
• 45:32
  Speaker B: Yes. For, like, some shitty reason. She's like, you were trespassing on my farm. You know that. You know that she was trying to break up with him, right?
• 45:39
  Speaker A: See, that's a power dynamic.
• 45:41
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 45:41
  Speaker A: And she should have never been making hay with the guy that's supposed to be pulling the hay. You know what I'm saying?
• 45:48
  Speaker B: So Bell fires Rey from his position and subsequently hires a guy named Joe Maxson. Meanwhile, Asel, Andrew's brother, is pers. He keeps firing these letters off. He is persistent with these letters to Belle, seeking information about Andrew, his brother. Also really saying, I'm coming there. I am going to confront you. I'm on my way. So you better get your shit in order and find my brother and produce him. Because, like, I'm getting in my coach right now.
• 46:23
  Speaker A: Yeah, but it's all, like, South Dakota. So, like, she has time. It's not like 91 1. It's like I'll get there eventually when the snow falls or thaws. You know what I mean? It's true. She has time.
• 46:36
  Speaker B: April 28, 1908. To your point, this is a few months after Asil said he was on his way.
• 46:46
  Speaker A: Well, okay, so Asil says he's on his way. And then this is the weird thing that you didn't say. She consults her attorney to prepare her will. Huh huh?
• 46:55
  Speaker B: Huh.
• 46:56
  Speaker A: Like that's a. That's a weird thing to do.
• 46:58
  Speaker B: That is a weird thing to do.
• 47:00
  Speaker A: What is. Why are you doing that? Okay, Asel's coming.
• 47:04
  Speaker B: Asil's coming. She knows as gonna get there. He's gonna get there. She sees her attorney to prepare her. Well, that's true.
• 47:12
  Speaker A: Okay, so now, early hours of April 28th.
• 47:15
  Speaker B: Like it's still dark out. Early hours. April 28th, 1908, at approximately 4:00am, Joe Maxson, the new hired hand, the new Ray, he is woken up by the smell of smoke. And he discovers that the entire house is ablaze. But hero that he is, he runs in and he tries to wake up Belle and the family, but was unsuccessful. Then Max immediately rushes to laporte, to the city itself to summon the fire department. In town later that afternoon, it's a smoking ruin of a mess. And in amidst the ruins of the basement, the bodies of the family were recovered. The bodies of the three children were found beside the body of a woman. Unfortunately, the woman's body was missing its head.
• 48:30
  Speaker A: You guys, I don't think that the fire caused that. I don't think so. No, I don't. No, I don't think so.
• 48:41
  Speaker B: Isn't that something?
• 48:43
  Speaker A: I know what it is.
• 48:44
  Speaker B: Okay, all right, don't tell us yet. So this is when Asil arrives.
• 48:49
  Speaker A: So Asil, you. You did not ride fast enough.
• 48:53
  Speaker B: Asil, he didn't.
• 48:55
  Speaker A: Where have you been?
• 48:56
  Speaker B: Now Asil finally arrives from South Dakot. And he's on the site of the burnt laporte farmhouse, searching for some clue of his missing brother, Andrew.
• 49:08
  Speaker A: That is so sad. Would you do that for me? You wouldn't. You wouldn't. You'd be like, she gone?
• 49:15
  Speaker B: I don't know. Yes, I probably would try to find some clue if I didn't know what happened to you. Anyway, A Sol and Joe Maxson found no evidence of Andrew's remains in the ruins of the house. So they started digging in an area on the property where Belle and Joe had previously disposed of garbage. Uh huh. And there they discovered Andrew's body? No, in a gunny sack.
• 49:50
  Speaker A: What's a gunny sack?
• 49:52
  Speaker B: It's a big sack buried with trash.
• 49:56
  Speaker A: Oh, my God. I'm so sorry, Andrew.
• 50:02
  Speaker B: After this grim discovery, law enforcement took over. Sheriff Smutzer and his team continued digging on the property and uncovered at least 13 bodies on Bell's farm. Most were so badly butchered that it was impossible for investigators to identify them. I was reading about this.
• 50:28
  Speaker A: So there were five before she got there. Now there's 13. That's 18 total. I'm sorry, what were you going to say?
• 50:35
  Speaker B: I was just going to say that. And if you're a sensitive listener, maybe fast forward for a second because what.
• 50:41
  Speaker A: Are you going to say?
• 50:42
  Speaker B: These, her victims, were butchered, like, into pieces.
• 50:51
  Speaker A: Because that's how she did at the butcher.
• 50:54
  Speaker B: Exactly. That was her experience.
• 50:57
  Speaker A: Holy shit.
• 51:00
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 51:01
  Speaker A: Oh, my God. I'm so sorry. And a lot of them are nameless. These are nameless people.
• 51:06
  Speaker B: Yep. Nameless people who answered her ads in the paper.
• 51:09
  Speaker A: Oh, my God.
• 51:11
  Speaker B: And children. Let's not forget the foster children that.
• 51:14
  Speaker A: She would foster so bad.
• 51:16
  Speaker B: Take out insurance policies on any.
• 51:19
  Speaker A: It doesn't even make sense to me. Like, I would. If a poor foster kid. I would be like, no, I'm good on the streets, thanks.
• 51:26
  Speaker B: Now, the first person to be arrested and questioned was Ray. Because everybody knew that Ray and Bell had had a recent conflict and she had fired him. Yes. And that they were lovers. He was arrested and he was tried for arson and murder. Ray was actually found guilty of the arson, but not the murder. Of course there's a story behind this.
• 51:52
  Speaker A: I. I think it has something to do with that. Oh, a head missing.
• 51:56
  Speaker B: Exactly. Well, first of all, Rey claimed in his testimony that Belle herself told him to set the farmhouse on fire with the children inside. He also said that the body that people assumed was Bell's was actually a murder victim of hers that was deliberately placed there to deceive investigators.
• 52:25
  Speaker A: Okay. Why? I think I already know the answer, but I'm just going to ask you. Why did she do this? I think my real why. I know why she did this.
• 52:35
  Speaker B: Why?
• 52:35
  Speaker A: Real. I'm just saying why Ray did this. Oh, she manipulated you. She. Then she. She cut you out of her life. She fired you, and then she's gonna knock on your door and be like, can you burn the house for me? He's like, you know what I mean?
• 52:49
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 52:50
  Speaker A: Why would you do that? Right? Why did she do it? Because I know why I can. Jill. Explain it.
• 52:57
  Speaker B: Jill. Spain it real fast.
• 52:58
  Speaker A: Real fast.
• 52:59
  Speaker B: Yeah, well, no, not really fast, but just.
• 53:00
  Speaker A: Jill Spain. This is. So she knew Ansel is coming, right? Yes, she. And she had some time, so she. We all know she had some time, right? So she got with her lawyer, she made a will. Excuse me? A will. And then she staged this arson and staged her own death so she can probably collect her own insurance money down the line somewhere else.
• 53:25
  Speaker B: That would be consistent without all the baggage. Mm. I like it. I like it. So, Asil, of course, Belle knew that he was coming, like you said. And Rey claimed that it was his impeding visit that motivated Belle to destroy her house, fake her own death, and escape.
• 53:46
  Speaker A: Yeah, because he's not gonna let no Andrew go, right? He was.
• 53:50
  Speaker B: He was persistent, and she knew he wouldn't stop. So the thing is about Rey. He is not a liar. And his testimony seemed to check out with the physical evidence. Now, check this. The headless woman's body that was found in the ruins, Significantly smaller than Belle and missing her signature features, like her height and her robustness.
• 54:14
  Speaker A: I thought you were gonna say her head. I was like, yeah, we know, Jen.
• 54:18
  Speaker B: That would be a signature feature. This is significant. Her body was 5 inches shorter and 50 pounds lighter, but still. The doctor completing the postmortem pronounced her dead. Pronounce Bell. Gun is dead.
• 54:31
  Speaker A: That's weird.
• 54:32
  Speaker B: That is weird, right?
• 54:34
  Speaker A: That is very weird. Why would he do that?
• 54:36
  Speaker B: I don't know. That's a mystery.
• 54:38
  Speaker A: The power this woman has over men. I do.
• 54:42
  Speaker B: I will never get for sure. Well, here's the thing, though, Jill.
• 54:46
  Speaker A: Tell us.
• 54:47
  Speaker B: After her quote, unquote death, people continued reporting sightings of Bell, specifically in the Chicago area, long after her death had been announced in La Porte, Indiana. Mm. So, Jill, there are so many parallels.
• 55:08
  Speaker A: Too many, between H.H.
• 55:10
  Speaker B: Holmes and Bell's story. And, like, both.
• 55:14
  Speaker A: Belle, go ahead. First of all, can I say something, please? I love that Belle did it better, but I'm awesome. Like, you know what I mean? I love that Belle did it better, but the fact that HH Holmes is more known than Bell is insane to me. Because she did it better.
• 55:29
  Speaker B: True. Both highly manipulative, both strategic with their methods. Right. They didn't want just anybody. They wanted, like, an H.H.
• 55:39
  Speaker A: Holmes money.
• 55:40
  Speaker B: Well, in H.H. holmes's situation, he was looking for young women on their own who would come. Agree to, like, work. Work with him and.
• 55:49
  Speaker A: Or stay with him.
• 55:50
  Speaker B: Right, Exactly. Yes. Stay with him as well. And Belle, of course, we know about all of her advertisements, financial motives. Huge for both of them. Both Holmes and Gunness. Profited from life insurance payouts on their victims. And both of them left behind mysteries that endure to this day.
• 56:11
  Speaker A: Yes, sir.
• 56:13
  Speaker B: Holmes's true victim count remains uncertain today, as well as Gunness's supposed death in the firehouse still sparks debates over whether she evaded capture altogether.
• 56:25
  Speaker A: I am sure she did.
• 56:27
  Speaker B: Now there's the most. What I would call the most staggering similarity has yet to been discussed.
• 56:37
  Speaker A: Will you discuss it with me now?
• 56:39
  Speaker B: Why, I shall. Belle also lived in Chicago in 1881. Jill, at the age of 21, when Belle had just left Norway, she first settled in Chicago to live with her sister Nellie, who had immigrated there several years earlier.
• 56:59
  Speaker A: Oh, my God. I want to know what happened to Nellie. We have to find out what happened to Nellie.
• 57:04
  Speaker B: In fact, Belle and her first husband, Mads, they lived in Chicago. And their first Chicago home burned down.
• 57:13
  Speaker A: Stop it right now.
• 57:15
  Speaker B: Not even kidding. And Bell and Mads, her first husband, used the fire insurance money from their burned down Chicago home to buy a candy store that was located on Grand Avenue and Elizabeth streets in Chicago.
• 57:28
  Speaker A: Oh, my God. That's where we were driving.
• 57:33
  Speaker B: And not only that, Jill. The couple then used the fire insurance payout from the candy store that burned down to purchase a new home in Austin, Illinois. Austin, which is now a neighborhood of Chicago. Like on Austin Avenue. Like that.
• 57:55
  Speaker A: That's crazy talk.
• 57:58
  Speaker B: Which we were totally picking up on.
• 58:00
  Speaker A: We were driving through.
• 58:03
  Speaker B: Yes. Through this neighborhood.
• 58:05
  Speaker A: Yes. That we did not know.
• 58:06
  Speaker B: That we did not even know that Belle freaking lived there.
• 58:10
  Speaker A: That's insane.
• 58:12
  Speaker B: Totally insane.
• 58:14
  Speaker A: Remember our hits?
• 58:15
  Speaker B: Of course. Austin Avenue Murderer. We totally nailed it. But here's my question for you. Oh, and H.H. holmes, who led us to her, quite frankly. But Jill, what do you think? That she came back to Chicago and somehow continued her nefarious activities.
• 58:36
  Speaker A: Either she impersonated Nelly to get her own life insurance, or she killed Nelly after Nelly cashed it for her.
• 58:46
  Speaker B: You think Nelly was involved? We have to find out what happened to Nelly. All right, Write that down.
• 58:51
  Speaker A: I already did. I already did.
• 58:53
  Speaker B: I love that. Thank you. My goodness. And other questions, like, do you think that she was in on it with Rey? Because that would be motivation if, like, you know, aka H.H. holmes was like, hey, let's pretend you die and I get your insurance money and we split it. And like, you know what I'm saying?
• 59:12
  Speaker A: Yes. I didn't even think of that.
• 59:14
  Speaker B: Yeah. Since there's so many parallels, here would be another one. She could have said, hey, Ray, you help me impersonate my death. I just have this will collect my insurance, I'll make you the beneficiary, and we'll split it. That would explain why he would go through all that trouble.
• 59:30
  Speaker A: I. Oh. That would explain why he would go through all that trouble.
• 59:35
  Speaker B: And then I also call into question the doctor who pronounced her dead when the body looked nothing like her.
• 59:41
  Speaker A: I want to know who came first. H.H. holmes. So H.H. holmes died in 1896.
• 59:48
  Speaker B: Yes. She's a little later.
• 59:51
  Speaker A: She's a little later.
• 59:52
  Speaker B: She's 11, 10 years later.
• 59:54
  Speaker A: But the reason why I bring it up is that she was probably inspired by him.
• 59:57
  Speaker B: Oh.
• 59:58
  Speaker A: Because like we said, everyone in the area knew about H.H. holmes.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker B: I. I don't. I'm not sure if he was in front of her, if. If his stuff came out before she started her butchery. To be quite honest, I don't know. Anyway. Yeah. So who do you think the voiceless are?
• 1:00:24
  Speaker A: I. There are 15 of them.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker A: That are unknown. Plus the woman, like, oh, my God.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker B: Her husband's, her hired men, her lovers, and all the poor foster children.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker A: Yeah. It's crazy. It's really. Honestly, it is really crazy that not a lot of people know about this situation.
• 1:00:44
  Speaker B: Yeah. Well, now they do. Yeah. So there you have it. Would you like to do a little closing, say goodbye to our folks?
• 1:00:52
  Speaker A: Sure. But I also want to know if the farm's still there. If it's 68 miles from Chicago. I bet you and I can drive there.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker B: Love it.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker A: Meet there.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 1:01:00
  Speaker A: I mean, do you love it because it's kind of creepy.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker B: No. Love the idea of going to try to find the location. And that's your superpower. Like, if I say, Jill, find it, you're going to find it. And we're totally going there. Love. Love everything about it.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker A: Okay, my closing.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker B: Yes, please.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker A: I. I just want to give people community announcements first.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker A: And one of those community announcements is the fact you, Jennifer James, my co host and sister of the Common Mystics podcast, are hosting a group class that lasts for eight weeks for only $200 per participant.
• 1:01:37
  Speaker B: That's true.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker A: My God. Tell me about it.
• 1:01:40
  Speaker B: What a deal. No, it's gonna be so fun. I'm really excited about it. We are going to practice our. Our psychic abilities and do a lot of hands on activities. We're going to do a lot of partner work, which is why it's a partner class. So it starts April 24th. If you've got any questions, if you think, well, maybe and you're not sure, just reach out. We'd be happy to talk with you to give you more information via email. So yeah, April 24th. It's eight weeks long, an hour and a half sessions on Zoom and really looking forward to it. Thank you, Jill.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker A: That's a long time. Yes. Please email us atcommonmystics gmail.com and Jennifer James herself will answer all your burning questions. Also, I want to say we love our patrons. We are incredibly grateful for all of you who have subscribed to us on Patreon at whatever figure made sense for you. Thank you guys so much. And please, if you haven't yet considered, considered sponsoring us on Patreon because that's literally keeping this show going and we need the help. So please do it if you can. And we know things are tight right now, so, you know, what are you gonna do exactly?
• 1:02:57
  Speaker B: But thank you so much. We, I cannot express enough gratitude for our patrons who literally, like Jill just said, literally keep Common Mystics going. We love you, we appreciate you and thank you from the bottom of our hearts.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker A: So want more mystics? Check out our website, commonmystics.net drop us a line on our email@commonmysticsmail.com follow us and follow all the mystical magic on the socials at Common Mystics podcast. Did I forget anything?
• 1:03:35
  Speaker B: I don't think so.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker A: Please leave us a positive review. We miss your reviews, you guys. I haven't asked in a long time, but like, your reviews give me life. So like, follow, subscribe and give us a glowing review on wherever you're listening to our podcast.
• 1:03:52
  Speaker B: Well said. Thank you so much. Goodbye. Thanks, bye.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker A: This has been a Common Mystics media production editing done by Yokai Audio, Kalamazoo, Michigan.