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From Self-Awareness to Inclusion: Intercultural Competence in Action · Speaking of Meaning

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Speaking of Meaning,
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: the podcast that helps you become a stronger communicator,
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: build deeper relationships and create impact that matters.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Ibrahim.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: I love helping other people and I also love to learn new things.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: This podcast is about better communication,
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: greater impact at work,
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: in your home and in the world out there.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: Let's dive in.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: Enjoy the show.
• 0:38
  Welcome back to Speaking of Meaning,
• 0:40
  Better Communication,
• 0:41
  Greater Impact.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: Today I have with me Patrik Gruskun.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: Patrik, welcome to the show.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks a lot.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: Very glad to be here.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: Looking forward to this conversation.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: It is great to have you here, Patrik.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: And can you tell our listeners who you are and what is your purpose?
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Patrik Gruskun, born in Germany in 1982, living in Sweden for the last...
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: 35 years.
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  I work with intercultural competence and communication as a
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  facilitator,
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  trainer,
• 1:14
  lecturer.
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  SPEAKER_00: I've done that for the last 20 years,
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  SPEAKER_00: mostly in Sweden,
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  SPEAKER_00: mostly aimed at public sector,
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  SPEAKER_00: focusing on leadership development,
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  SPEAKER_00: organizational development,
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  SPEAKER_00: and how you can utilize the potential of having employees with different
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  SPEAKER_00: backgrounds,
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  SPEAKER_00: but also dealing with those challenges that can come up.
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  SPEAKER_00: I also married with a woman from Tanzania in the last 20 years almost.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I have these three countries inside of me.
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  SPEAKER_00: And this topic is quite personal for me.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's an important topic for me.
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  I talked to you a few weeks ago because I know your background
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  is very diverse and very unique.
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  SPEAKER_01: I've also seen your work, wonderful work as well.
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  I remember when I asked you and said,
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  if you could give a TED talk,
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  what would you talk about?
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  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
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  SPEAKER_01: And you said culture and communication.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
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  SPEAKER_00: I think culture and communication as being a person living in Sweden,
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  which is a country that has gone through quite a rapid
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  transformation over the last
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  SPEAKER_00: 30,
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  SPEAKER_00: 40 years.
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  SPEAKER_00: We used to be a country of migrants moving away from us.
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  Over 1 million people left Sweden,
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  mainly to the US between 1850 and 1930.
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  SPEAKER_00: But since then, more than 2 million people have moved to Sweden from
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  SPEAKER_00: all around the world.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that transformation is interesting,
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  SPEAKER_00: challenging,
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  SPEAKER_00: but also a great opportunity for our society.
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  And I think I would have focused my TED talk on describing that
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  journey and
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  focusing on a model I've developed that's called Six Steps for
• 2:51
  Intercultural
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  SPEAKER_00: Competence,
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  that I hope is a useful tool for organizations and leaders who
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  try to improve their
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  SPEAKER_00: ability to work with diversity.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
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  SPEAKER_01: Now I'm curious here.
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  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned the six steps for intercultural competence.
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  SPEAKER_01: What is that?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we could go through that.
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  SPEAKER_00: Maybe that could be a useful framing for our talk.
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  SPEAKER_00: Well, the first step is the label is self-awareness.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like this is my reality.
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  SPEAKER_00: And what that basically means that I think it's a good pedagogical,
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  SPEAKER_00: but also ideological starting point.
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  SPEAKER_00: Not to start an intercultural competence model with how the others work.
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  SPEAKER_00: We'll get to that,
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  SPEAKER_00: but more to start with how I myself work,
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  SPEAKER_00: like how my background,
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  SPEAKER_00: how my experiences have changed and influenced my way to view the world.
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  The basic idea of underpinning the whole model is that none of
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  us are objective observers.
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  We are all subjects interacting with each other and the world
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  based on our
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  SPEAKER_00: experiences and backgrounds.
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  SPEAKER_00: It means we all have different colored glasses when we view the world.
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  And even if you listen to this talk now and then you have a
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  friend doing the same,
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  SPEAKER_00: if you compare your notes afterwards and what your takeaways are,
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  you will have a different perception of what was important and
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  meaningful for you.
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  And that has a lot to do with who you are and what you bring to
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  the conversation.
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  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so you're talking about self-awareness?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Trying to develop that,
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  SPEAKER_00: because self-awareness is a huge thing,
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  SPEAKER_00: of course,
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  SPEAKER_00: and no one can have a full self-awareness,
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  SPEAKER_00: but I do think it's very useful to start the journey point there.
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  SPEAKER_00: Quite often when I meet organizations,
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  SPEAKER_00: I come to a situation where you consider your own culture as normal.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's like the fish swimming in the water,
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  not really thinking about that it is swimming in water because
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  that's taken for
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  SPEAKER_00: granted.
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  And it's just when you meet someone with a different cultural
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  point of view that
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  you get the idea that your normal is just one of the different
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  perspectives
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  SPEAKER_00: available,
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  SPEAKER_00: which takes us to step two in the model.
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  SPEAKER_00: But maybe that would be to go too fast for you.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
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  SPEAKER_01: I would like to explore the first step here because I think,
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  SPEAKER_01: like you say,
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  SPEAKER_01: self-awareness is huge because in my experience,
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  SPEAKER_01: sometimes we're not aware
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  SPEAKER_01: of our blind spots,
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  SPEAKER_01: of our biases,
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  because we tend to see what is happening and our perspective
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  and the decisions we
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  SPEAKER_01: make as rational,
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  SPEAKER_01: as reality.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so would you say that difficult people lack self-awareness?
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't think I would frame it like that.
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  SPEAKER_00: I would say that we all have blind spots.
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  And I think that one of the opportunities with diversity and
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  with meeting people
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  with a very different perspective or background than yourself
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  is to experience,
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  SPEAKER_00: realize,
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  SPEAKER_00: or be aware more of the blind spots that you have.
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  SPEAKER_00: Quite often,
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  SPEAKER_00: for example,
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  SPEAKER_00: when I was like 21,
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  SPEAKER_00: I think,
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  SPEAKER_00: and I went to India,
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  SPEAKER_00: a pretty common thing to do in Sweden,
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  SPEAKER_00: in a folk high school,
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  SPEAKER_00: three months exchange program.
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  SPEAKER_00: And my basic idea was that I wanted to understand what India was.
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  SPEAKER_00: And of course, I didn't manage to grasp that to the full extent.
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  But the unintended consequence of going there was that I
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  learned a lot about things
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  SPEAKER_00: about what Sweden is.
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  Because I saw how people could also live their life,
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  how a society could also be structured.
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  And in that way,
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  I realized that my normal or the thing that I took for granted
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  were options.
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  SPEAKER_00: So that was a blind spot for me until I saw the alternative.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that, I think, is quite often the case.
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  SPEAKER_00: And if you look at organizations who really,
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  SPEAKER_00: really fail miserably,
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  it is organizations where a lot of the employees and decision
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  makers have a very
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  SPEAKER_00: similar background
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  while the world around them with which they have to interact is
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  changing.
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  And then there is a risk that they have a lot of assumptions
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  that they make and
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  that they're not challenging because they all make the similar
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  assumptions.
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  So that is one of the benefits or potential benefits at least
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  from having a more
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  SPEAKER_00: diverse workforce.
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  So you might be more self-aware and be aware of your blind
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  spots that happens when
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  SPEAKER_01: your perspective,
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  your reality is being challenged by an alternative perspective
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  reality experience.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's a fair assumption.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think it's something we do together.
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  SPEAKER_00: We're in it together.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's quite hard, I would say, to develop self-awareness on your own.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's something you do in interaction.
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  Of course,
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  we can think about things,
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  consider things,
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  study things on our own.
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  SPEAKER_00: But I think it's a very big benefit of doing this together.
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  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
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  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
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  How would you,
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  I guess,
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  describe what's going on in this world right now?
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  SPEAKER_01: Because we live in a very divided world,
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  SPEAKER_01: especially,
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  SPEAKER_01: this is not about politics,
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  but the political landscape and the narrative in this society
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  is very divided.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I guess...
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  SPEAKER_01: In the 70s,
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  SPEAKER_01: 80s,
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  SPEAKER_01: when politicians disagreed,
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  SPEAKER_01: they could still consider each other as good people.
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  SPEAKER_01: They could still be friends and we could still talk to the other side.
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  SPEAKER_01: But in this age,
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  SPEAKER_01: in these days,
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  SPEAKER_01: when we talk to each other,
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  SPEAKER_01: when politicians talk to each other,
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  SPEAKER_01: they label each other.
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  SPEAKER_01: So right now we're not only dealing with another politician,
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  SPEAKER_01: but we're also dealing with the enemy.
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  And so do you think self-awareness is difficult to achieve in
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  today's society,
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  SPEAKER_01: fast-paced society?
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  SPEAKER_00: There were a few different things to unpack in that question.
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  So let me start with the assumption that the political
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  discourse is more unfriendly
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  SPEAKER_00: today than before.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure, to be honest.
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  SPEAKER_00: If I've listened to old debates from Germany or Sweden,
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  SPEAKER_00: they were pretty harsh towards each other as well.
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  And if you look at the late 80s and how the discourse was in
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  America with...
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  SPEAKER_00: all the divide in society between different political ideals.
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  SPEAKER_00: It was a pretty harsh environment as well.
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  But I do agree that the world as we speak of today is going
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  through a very rapid transformation.
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  SPEAKER_00: Many transformations that are simultaneously taking place.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that makes it very difficult to know where we're going.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I think without going into ideology,
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  I think it's fair to say that the unipolar world with Pax
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  Americana that we took
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  SPEAKER_00: for granted for a long time is now challenged quite a lot.
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  SPEAKER_00: The power is tilting eastwards.
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  Different actors are trying to assert power in competition with
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  one another in a
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  SPEAKER_00: way that was not common 20,
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  SPEAKER_00: 30 years ago.
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  SPEAKER_00: So that is one of the transformations.
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  But we also have a technological transformation with the AI
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  technology and the
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  SPEAKER_00: digitalization that
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  SPEAKER_00: through algorithms and social media,
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  SPEAKER_00: et cetera,
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  create different ecosystems where people are being reinforced
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  in their own
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  SPEAKER_00: worldview,
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  SPEAKER_00: because that's a business model.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that makes us drift more apart from each other.
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  And those two transformations are some of the transformations
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  right now happening.
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if that really answered your question, but I tried.
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  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
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  And where do you think all this will lead to as it relates to
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  intercultural competence?
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  SPEAKER_00: That's a very good question.
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  SPEAKER_00: The honest answer is I don't know.
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  When you're in the middle of change,
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  it's very hard to see where that is going.
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  SPEAKER_00: But I do think that there is a potential and a risk here.
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  The potential,
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  of course,
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  is with this world where we have so many more people.
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  Just one stat,
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  it's like in the 60s,
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  we were 3 billion people totally in the world.
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  SPEAKER_00: Today, we're 8 billion.
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  It's like less than one average lifespan,
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  we become 5 billion people more.
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  Of course,
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  that creates a necessity and an opportunity for more
• 11:30
  intercultural encounters.
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  SPEAKER_00: We need each other.
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  SPEAKER_00: We need this competence.
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  SPEAKER_00: So that's potential.
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  SPEAKER_00: But then,
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  SPEAKER_00: of course,
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  SPEAKER_00: with all these conflicts that arise,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's very easy to create an us and them
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  And when there's an us and them,
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  there's very little interest or curiosity for the other.
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  SPEAKER_00: Then you're more focused on protecting yourself.
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  And that's not a good opportunity for intercultural competence
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  or developing
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  SPEAKER_00: self-awareness in relation to these matters.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: Are we heading towards more protectionism?
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  SPEAKER_01: And if the answer is yes,
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  then could the answer be that we are not going to be
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  interculturally competent in
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  SPEAKER_01: the future?
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  I don't think it's possible to say yes or no on a global big
• 12:23
  scale on that.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think it will depend.
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  SPEAKER_00: Different societies will take different paths.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it will be very different for different people.
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  I don't think you can say as a general trend that we will
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  become more or less
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  SPEAKER_00: intercultural competent.
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  SPEAKER_00: I cannot be the judge of that at least.
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  SPEAKER_00: All right.
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  SPEAKER_01: So the first point is self-awareness.
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  SPEAKER_01: And what is the second point?
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  SPEAKER_00: Awareness of subjectivity.
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  SPEAKER_00: That my reality is not the reality or not the big truth.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the basic idea about this is that
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  Being aware that a lot of the things that I assume are
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  assumptions based on my
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: background and my story.
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  SPEAKER_00: And when I meet someone with a different reality,
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  SPEAKER_00: that doesn't necessarily mean that I'm right and you're wrong.
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  SPEAKER_00: And to develop an intercultural competence,
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  at least we have to open ourselves to the possibility that
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  different realities can
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  SPEAKER_00: exist next to each other simultaneously.
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  SPEAKER_00: And we don't always have to decide who's right and who's wrong.
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  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
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  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we do, but not always.
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  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_01: So my reality is not the only truth, I guess.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: In my experience,
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  when I visit organizations and I talk about trust or talk about
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  bias and when I
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: meet leaders,
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  SPEAKER_01: I find it easy for people or easier,
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  SPEAKER_01: I would say,
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: to have that perspective in mind
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: when we or they are dealing with not big questions.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like if we're arguing about something that is trivial,
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: then I might have that perspective with me.
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  But what if I'm talking to somebody or we're going to include
• 14:16
  change that goes
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: against my values or my strongly held beliefs?
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  My experience is that it's very challenging and very difficult
• 14:28
  to pause and say,
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  SPEAKER_01: oh,
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  SPEAKER_01: this is just my perspective.
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  SPEAKER_01: This is not reality.
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  Because usually if I think it's my truth,
• 14:38
  then it's very difficult to see the other perspective.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: It is difficult, but it's necessary.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it takes some training, of course.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: It takes a lot from yourself.
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  It takes having a good day where you have the mental capacity
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  to be listening to
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  SPEAKER_00: the other perspective.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: the more core and perspective is for you,
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: the more difficult,
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  SPEAKER_00: of course,
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  SPEAKER_00: it is for you to hear it being challenged.
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  Like for many people that I meet,
• 15:08
  values of equality,
• 15:10
  for example,
• 15:10
  are very core.
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  And then when meeting someone who has a very different
• 15:15
  perspective on that,
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  SPEAKER_00: that can be very challenging.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: Also questions about anti-racism and diversity,
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: inclusion,
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  SPEAKER_00: those matters,
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  when they are being challenged from an individual with a
• 15:26
  different perspective,
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: those discussions are very hard.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not a way to make them easy, but they're still necessary.
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  And I do want to say that I'm not a champion of a value
• 15:41
  relative society where
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: anything goes because anything doesn't go.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: Around many things we have to fight.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because many of the rights we have in Sweden,
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: for example,
• 15:52
  are because our ancestors stood on the barricades fighting for
• 15:57
  their democratic
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: privileges that we enjoy today,
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: fighting for equality,
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: fighting for workers' rights.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: These things didn't come for free.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: They weren't given.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: They were fought for.
• 16:06
  So,
• 16:06
  of course,
• 16:07
  there are things where I can say,
• 16:09
  yeah,
• 16:09
  I know this is subjective.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: I know this is something where I feel like this and you feel like this,
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: but I'm going to fight for this.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's also part of society.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, the metaphor of playing soccer is quite nice.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: I love playing soccer.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, I think people will always fight.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: But if we can agree on the rules, we can agree on the playing field.
• 16:33
  And if we can agree on some kind of third party who can be the
• 16:36
  judge when people
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: break the rules,
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: that is a very,
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: very good thing if a society can get there.
• 16:43
  But if we think we will come to a place where everyone agrees
• 16:46
  and is nice and
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: that's not going to happen,
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  SPEAKER_00: that society doesn't exist.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think it should either.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's very interesting.
• 16:56
  So the question then that I think about is who gets to decide
• 17:01
  the rules and who is
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: the third party?
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: Let's take, for example, in the workplace.
• 17:12
  communication or diversity inclusion hiring processes who who
• 17:20
  is going to decide
• 17:21
  the rules well first of all organizations do not exist in a
• 17:24
  vacuum they exist
• 17:25
  within the legal framework of a nation or an international
• 17:28
  environment and there
• 17:29
  there are rules and laws in Sweden for example we have rules
• 17:32
  against discrimination
• 17:34
  just because you feel differently as an organization you still
• 17:37
  have to apply by
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: those rules and if not there will be a
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: process, a judicial process that can fine companies and stuff like that.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: So that would be one of the things.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: But the other thing is that as colleagues in an organizational setting,
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: we also have to talk about,
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: think about how we want to have it together in this workplace.
• 17:58
  Because there are a lot of things which we need to deal with
• 18:01
  that are not regulated
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: by a law,
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: for example.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: And in this, on this matter, of course, leadership is very important.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like what are the leaders communicating?
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: What kind of values are they not just saying?
• 18:14
  It's very easy to write in a policy document that you should
• 18:17
  respect each other.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's a very easy thing to write.
• 18:20
  It's not as easy to act in your leadership and show by example
• 18:25
  what does that mean?
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: How does respect translate into my leadership, for example?
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: Is this empathy?
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, is this all about empathy?
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: Not at all, but it's part of it, definitely.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: One of the most beautiful human capacities we have.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: And how can I,
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: let's say I'm talking to somebody that I strongly disagree with,
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: because we have freedom of speech and they're acting within the law,
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: of course,
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: but if they have an opinion I don't really agree with,
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: and that opinion also goes against my beliefs,
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: my values,
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: my truth,
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: how can I see the other perspective and not be triggered,
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: For example,
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: you have a right not to be humiliated or harassed,
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: but you don't have a right not to feel uncomfortable.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's just part of life.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's part of good discussions to be uncomfortable.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's the first thing I would like to say.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing is,
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: as much as you have the right to your opinion,
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: the other person has the right to his or her opinion.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's the right we share.
• 19:39
  When it comes to how do you deal with the situation where you
• 19:41
  become triggered,
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: sometimes we should be triggered.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 19:47
  if I meet a colleague who's expressing very racist or
• 19:51
  condescending views against
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: women or whatever,
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think I should be triggered.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think I should be nice in that conversation.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: I should stand my ground and say, these are the values I stand for.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: I do not accept that kind of behavior.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: So there, it's good to be triggered.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: But then,
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: of course,
• 20:09
  there are situations where it might be better to work on your
• 20:12
  own triggers to see,
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: what can I do?
• 20:16
  In what situations do I become triggered in such a way that it
• 20:20
  does not help me,
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: that it doesn't help the situation?
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: And some people, they might need to slow down.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: Some people might need to take a break.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: Some people might need to breathe.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: Or some people might just have to say,
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: this is a conversation I really want,
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: but this is not the point to have it.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: Let's come back to this tomorrow or another time.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: Because when I'm very triggered,
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: I tend to be pretty stupid because my mental capacity goes down,
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's all emotion.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: And you say things and you do things and in the end,
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: ah,
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: that was not really how I wanted to come across.
• 20:55
  So taking a break,
• 20:56
  taking a pause can be a really good strategy sometimes.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: Okay,
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: so I think it's difficult because once you are triggered,
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: it takes a lot of willpower to stay composed.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: And not be too emotional.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: My last guest, Kasim Hussain, also talked about this.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: And he also said,
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: just like you mentioned right now,
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: he said,
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: if you feel triggered,
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: take a pause.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: You can come back to it later.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: And the problem, I think, sometimes is that we function on autopilot.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so it takes really...
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: Which I guess why you started with self-awareness,
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: it takes self-awareness to realize,
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm triggered right now.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to take a step back.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: We can talk about this later.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have to deal with it right now.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: And that's your right as well.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: I don't remember her name,
• 22:05
  but I think she framed it very brilliantly that quite often
• 22:09
  when you feel stepped
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: upon or triggered,
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: it's not so easy to formulate in that moment,
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: this is what I mean.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe to just say, ouch, that hurt.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'll get back to that.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: That can be enough because then in the moment,
• 22:25
  you're at least acknowledging for yourself and others that this
• 22:28
  was not okay for
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: me,
• 22:30
  but you also give yourself the opportunity to get back to it on
• 22:34
  a different note.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: Can I give an example from a friend of mine, by the way?
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: Go ahead.
• 22:41
  This was at the time we were both 25-ish,
• 22:44
  and she is a very beautiful woman.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: And many men,
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: for some reason,
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: had felt the urge to tell her in different professional settings that,
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: so beautiful.
• 22:53
  And they triggered her because she was not there because she
• 22:56
  was beautiful.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: She was there because she was competent.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: She had something to say.
• 23:00
  She was in a consultant role and she was quite often presented
• 23:03
  like now the,
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: let's call her Kaisa,
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: now the beautiful Kaisa will speak.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: And she had two prime reactions to this.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: One was to feel small and humiliated.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: And the other was to, I think, man, I hate this.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to fight this.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: And none of those reactions really helped her.
• 23:22
  Because in the fact that it was a compliment she was receiving,
• 23:25
  it was an unwelcome,
• 23:26
  competent,
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: A compliment.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: It was a compliment based on a gender inequality, of course.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: But it was still a unwelcome compliment.
• 23:38
  So one day we sat down and talked about like,
• 23:40
  how can you deal with this better?
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like the next time it happens, what can you do?
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: And we developed a strategy.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: And the thing is,
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: in Gothenburg where I live,
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: if you want to have a good hard talk about something that will take time,
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: you need to go to Haga Nygata.
• 23:54
  It's a very old,
• 23:55
  narrow street,
• 23:55
  and they have the biggest cinnamon buns in Sweden.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: And when I say big, I mean they are massive.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, man, it sounds good.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's good.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: And when you order a cinnamon bun like that, you have time.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: No one can eat that in a hurry.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're going to have a good,
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: hard discussion,
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: go to Haga Nygaard,
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: order a cinnamon bun,
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: and then talk it out.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: And we did that.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: We talked it out.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: And we designed a strategy for the next time this would happen.
• 24:19
  Now,
• 24:20
  normally in life,
• 24:20
  there is never a next time when the same thing happens,
• 24:23
  right?
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: Other things will happen that you have not prepared for.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: But this was how it was.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: A few months later, we were on a conference in Amsterdam together.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: And in the break, a 60-year-old German gentleman came up to her.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: And he had like this gray, short hair, white shirt, black, blank shoes.
• 24:45
  He went to my 25-year-old friend and said,
• 24:48
  I have to say one thing to you,
• 24:49
  Kaisa.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: You're beautiful.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: And this time she had a plan.
• 24:54
  So she took half a step forward,
• 24:56
  blinked a little bit with her eyes and said,
• 24:59
  you know what?
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: You're pretty cute yourself.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: And in that interaction,
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: the power went from him and her to something else because he was like,
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: what happened here?
• 25:11
  He was discombobulated,
• 25:12
  so they would say,
• 25:13
  like,
• 25:13
  stricken off its centeredness.
• 25:15
  And a German gentleman is not used to having a 25-year-old
• 25:20
  woman tell him he's cute.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: So something changed in that situation.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: And when that change had happened,
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: my friend took another half step forward and said,
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: by the way,
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: I would prefer if you not comment on my looks.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think about the training we're participating in?
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: So that was a way for her to really stand up for herself.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: without destroying the possibility of an interesting relationship,
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: which we had really good talk about the training afterwards.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it also gave him an opportunity to reflect upon his behavior,
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: to get more self-awareness about what he was doing.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: If he did that, that's on him.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: But at least he was given the opportunity.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: This is a great example.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: So basically,
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: Would you say she used humor as well and used his strategy on him?
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: Talked about his looks.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: And that way she got her power back.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's her.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's her.
• 26:21
  But she did it in a way without like destroying him or being
• 26:25
  like really pushing him down.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: She made it in a little bit funny way,
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: but still in such a way that if he's a little bit smart,
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: he will understood that his comment was not really welcome.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 26:35
  and humor is powerful because I think humor is more effective
• 26:40
  than being angry or
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: getting too emotional.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, quite often, definitely.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: This is great.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: I have a lot of questions when it comes to dating,
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: but this is not for this podcast today.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: Let's save that for a cinnamon bun at Haga Nygaard.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'll make sure I go there next time when I'm in Gutenberg.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: You're invited.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so step number one was self-awareness.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: Step number two is awareness of subjectivity.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: What is the third step?
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: Curiosity.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: Curiosity.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: To be interested in the other's reality.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: Which I think in any human interaction, that's key.
• 27:23
  But it might be a little bit more necessary if we have very
• 27:26
  different backgrounds.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: Because the lack of curiosity quite often leads to judgments.
• 27:31
  I'm judging you based on making an assumption about what your
• 27:35
  intentions are.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: But if I'm curious enough to ask one or two or three more questions,
• 27:41
  I might end up with realizing that I was wrong in my assumption
• 27:44
  about you.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I can learn something new.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, okay.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: You say understanding the other person's reality.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: Let me give you an example.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: In my kids' preschool, there were two parents from Bangladesh, okay?
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: And they didn't buy rain boots for their daughter.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: Now, in Swedish preschools, all kids have rain boots.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: So the staff told them, please buy rain boots for your kids.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: rubber rain boots for your kids.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: And they never did.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: So it would have been very easy for the staff to think,
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: they're poor,
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: they're unwilling,
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: they are bad parents.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: They could make a lot of assumptions.
• 28:24
  But what they did is that they chose to think,
• 28:26
  we really want to know why.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: Let's ask again.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: So the next time the parents came,
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: they asked them,
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 28:32
  we have noticed that you have still not bought any rubber shoes
• 28:36
  for your daughter.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: We are a bit surprised.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: Could you please explain to us why you have not done this?
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then the parents said,
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: sorry,
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: but we don't need to buy rubber shoes for our kid.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: We can buy real shoes.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: We're not that poor.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, uh-huh, OK.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: So in your reality, rubber shoes are a sign of poverty.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: Come and look here.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: There are 29 pairs of rubber boots here.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: The kids are out playing in the rain.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: Your daughter gets wet feet.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: Can you please, as all the other kids here, buy her rubber shoes?
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: And the next day, she had perfect rubber shoes.
• 29:12
  Because now the parents understood what it meant for the staff
• 29:14
  and the staff
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: understood the parents.
• 29:17
  And this kind of understanding can only come if you pause your
• 29:21
  judgment a little
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: bit and actually try to understand the person in front of you.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: So be curious.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: Interested, curious, use a word you want for it, but yeah.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: Be curious about the other person.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: Again, I tend to go back to empathy a lot.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: Because for me,
• 29:41
  empathy is understanding the other perspective and putting
• 29:47
  yourself in their shoes
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: and trying to really understand where they're coming from.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: Now,
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: not necessarily agreeing with them,
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: but understanding where they're coming from and being able to
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: empathize with them, not necessarily agreeing with them.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: For me,
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: empathy is more like focusing on the emotional connection,
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: understanding the feelings or feeling with and for someone else.
• 30:21
  But that's,
• 30:22
  of course,
• 30:22
  very closely connected to being aware of the other's
• 30:25
  perspective.
• 30:28
  But I definitely agree with you that empathy is a very big part
• 30:30
  of intercultural competence.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, okay.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: Could I give you an example?
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: Could I give you another example, maybe?
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: I love examples.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: Go ahead.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: Okay,
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: so a bit of a personal one now,
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: but me and my wife,
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: we struggle a lot with getting children.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: We have two beautiful daughters now, very blessed with that.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: And based on our story,
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: of course,
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: we know it's not a right,
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: it's a gift,
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: a blessing,
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: whatever word works for you.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: But as a part in that process,
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: we had a late miscarriage and we were in the hospital feeling sad,
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: grieving,
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: as you do in that kind of situation.
• 31:03
  All of you who've been in that kind of process or love to you
• 31:07
  and those who haven't,
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: glad for you, but you also don't understand the feeling.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: You can only do that if you're really through the process.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, we're in the hospital being sad and
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know the English word for this now, curator in Swedish.
• 31:21
  The medical staff in charge with trying to help people,
• 31:26
  patients deal with their emotions.
• 31:27
  Not the medical staff,
• 31:28
  but more like the mental health care staff,
• 31:31
  whatever you call it.
• 31:32
  Anyway,
• 31:32
  the curator came in,
• 31:34
  went to my wife and asked her,
• 31:35
  so how do you feel?
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: Can I help you somehow?
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: Is there anything we can do for you?
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: As she should.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's her job.
• 31:42
  And my wife looked at her and said,
• 31:44
  you know,
• 31:44
  it feels like someone put a spell on me.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like someone does not want me to become a mother.
• 31:53
  And the Swedish curator looked at my Tanzanian wife with her
• 31:56
  blue eyes and said,
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_02: nah,
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think that's what happened.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not her job, right?
• 32:04
  It's not her job to transform this patient's reality from being
• 32:08
  spiritual to being
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: secular or rational.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: She needs to,
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: take some steps away from her reality and say,
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: this is where this person is.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: Can I meet her where she is?
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you can't meet her where she is, she can't help.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: She can't be relevant for this individual.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: But you need to pause your own need to be right in that situation.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: And she couldn't.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: And she couldn't.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: And probably she couldn't emotionally connect with your wife either.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 32:44
  I think my wife wasn't really interested in trying that either
• 32:48
  after that first interaction.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: Did she leave or did she stay after that comment?
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: she stayed for a brief time,
• 32:54
  but I think you feel in her position when the conversation
• 32:57
  doesn't really move
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: forward,
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: you leave the patient and you go somewhere else,
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: of course.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: The funny thing that like a few hours later,
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: one of the nurses came in and she was from Western Africa.
• 33:10
  And she looked at me with a skeptical look and then looked at
• 33:13
  my wife and said,
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: sister,
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: God has a plan.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: And the women hugged each other.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: I guess they connected.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: They did connect.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: And of course,
• 33:22
  that behavior in a different room with a different patient
• 33:25
  would have been a
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: disaster.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: But in this setting, it was right.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: And what I mean by that is that it's not like there's one right behavior.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's not.
• 33:36
  It's about leaving your own need a little bit behind and with
• 33:40
  empathy trying to
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: meet another person where he or she is.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it seems that that nurse has that capacity and that curiosity,
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: but also she knows that she's flexible.
• 33:56
  She adapts her behavior and the way she meets people depending
• 34:02
  on who she's dealing with.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: I only know how she was in our room.
• 34:07
  And I think it was easier for her in our room because she and
• 34:10
  my wife could relate
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: from a similar reality.
• 34:14
  How she in her turn would meet a woman with a dissimilar
• 34:18
  reality,
• 34:18
  I do not know that.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: Great examples.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: What steps can people take in the workplace,
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: at home,
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: even with strangers to show more curiosity?
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: Practicing open questions is always a good thing.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's like an art that we practice way too little.
• 34:48
  I think you're really good at it so far in this discussion,
• 34:50
  but to ask questions.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: We cannot take for granted that we know how to do it,
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: but most of us don't really know how to do it.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: That would be one thing.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: Ask more open questions.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:04
  And the other thing I would say is to do things once in a while
• 35:08
  that are challenging you.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: Put yourself in situations where you can be surprised,
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: where you experience different things,
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: try different things.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's good for all of us to do that.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: So things that challenge,
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: do you mean like things that might get us triggered or is it,
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 35:29
  going to a restaurant we haven't been to or talking to a
• 35:34
  colleague we haven't
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: talked to for a while and so forth?
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think all those things are really good,
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: but in a work setting,
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: for example,
• 35:40
  setting yourself down on a different table than you usually do
• 35:44
  talking to other
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: colleagues,
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: for example,
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: that's a really good thing.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: An organization I met once,
• 35:50
  they had a policy that one day every year you had to work on a
• 35:54
  different department
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: than the one you were normally stationed on.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: For example,
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: the salesperson had to work in the production area,
• 36:01
  which is really good because then he would understand that when
• 36:05
  he gives a sales
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: order on Friday afternoon,
• 36:07
  that's not really appreciated in the production because they
• 36:10
  want to go on weekend
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: and stuff like that.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: So to kind of understand each other,
• 36:13
  because the sales force has a logic and the production unit has
• 36:17
  a different logic.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a really useful thing.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: When I worked at the National Museum of World Cultures in Gothenburg,
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: for example,
• 36:25
  one day every year we were supposed to work in the reception
• 36:27
  desk where we meet the
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: people coming to the museum.
• 36:31
  And the idea was that either if we work in production or
• 36:34
  communications or
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: leadership,
• 36:36
  we should never forget that we are there to create a good
• 36:38
  experience for the
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: guests.
• 36:40
  And therefore one day,
• 36:41
  at least every year,
• 36:42
  we should work directly with the guests.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a good policy.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a good policy for leaders,
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: for example,
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: to work on the floor once in a while,
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: so to speak.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: My next question,
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: and you've partially answered it,
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: Patrick,
• 36:55
  and that is how can leaders practice curiosity intentionally
• 37:04
  with their staff,
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: with people,
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: with stakeholders and so forth?
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's a good question,
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: and I would also like to have your input on this later,
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: to be honest,
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: because I know you have a lot of things to say on that specific topic.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: How leaders can practice curiosity?
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think one thing is to start meetings with a question.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: That would be one thing.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: Quite often, we are very task-oriented.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: We want to get things done.
• 37:31
  But that might not always be the most efficient thing because
• 37:34
  it's a quite known
• 37:35
  fact that leaders tend to know only part of what the
• 37:39
  competences of their employees
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: are.
• 37:43
  So it might be a very good thing for the long term productivity
• 37:45
  to get to know more
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: about your employees and their background.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: And also when we get to know each other on a personal level,
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: we get more efficient with one another.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: Communication gets shorter.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's easier to talk about things.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: It can be just a simple thing.
• 38:00
  Like we had a very nice exercise the other week at my office
• 38:04
  where we talked about
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: what's the history of your name?
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: How did you get your name?
• 38:08
  And then everyone was invited to share the story about either
• 38:12
  their first name or
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: their family name.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: And that was very fun.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: And we all learn new things about each other in that way.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: But Ibrahim, let me know.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have any good insights to this question as well?
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure you have.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think you're on the right track.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: I really like the idea of getting to know your people.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: For me, that is building trust.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I talk a lot about psychological safety,
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: the trust that we have,
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: the deep trust,
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: the trust that takes time.
• 38:46
  And then we have the swift trust,
• 38:49
  the trust that we need in the beginning.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I think getting to know your people, that's very important.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: but also creating an open door policy where we give each other feedback.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: And my last guest, Kasim Hussain, said something powerful.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: He said, give each other feedback also when you're doing something right.
• 39:16
  Because usually in the corporate world,
• 39:19
  we only give feedback when something goes wrong.
• 39:21
  I mean,
• 39:22
  the time I've been receiving feedback is usually when I've done
• 39:26
  something wrong.
• 39:27
  But I would say psychological safety and to spend time with
• 39:33
  your people and make
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: them feel safe to be in the workplace.
• 39:38
  And I think that's very difficult for leaders these days,
• 39:43
  especially they have a lot to do.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: They're going from a meeting to another meeting.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: They have goals,
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: they have stakeholders,
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: they have customers,
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: they have strategies,
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: and we forget the psychological safety.
• 39:57
  Because I think if people don't feel safe in the workplace to
• 40:01
  be themselves,
• 40:04
  if they don't have a curious leader,
• 40:06
  they're not going to ask you for help.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: They're not going to give you feedback.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: Rather, people will just perhaps avoid taking responsibility.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the most primary thing is psychological safety, I would say.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, makes sense.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: If you're not safe, you're not going to be curious.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: You're going to be focused on protecting yourself.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: And the question is, how can we make more time
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: for people to spend time with each other.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: What I mean is, how can we reflect together?
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_01: How can the leader reflect?
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: But I know that you have another point coming up,
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: which is also reflection,
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: which we will talk about in a few moments.
• 40:58
  But curiosity is definitely something I need to practice more
• 41:03
  and perhaps even
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: schedule a time for it as well.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's a good point.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: I agree.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: So we've talked about awareness.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: We've talked about awareness of subjectivity.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: We've talked about curiosity.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: What is step number four?
• 41:22
  Well,
• 41:22
  these first three steps are like the mindset,
• 41:24
  intercultural mindset.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: The fourth step is a knowledge step.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's called knowledge and skills,
• 41:29
  and it's about to be prepared for and able to get and give the
• 41:32
  information I need
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_00: in an intercultural encounter.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: Quite often, that's where we start.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: I make a point of not starting there.
• 41:40
  But this is often where we talk about cultural differences
• 41:43
  between different
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: countries or leadership styles.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: How is it different to be a leader in an American company,
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: in a Tanzanian company,
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: or a Swedish company?
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: How do we relate to hierarchy, equality, directness or indirectness?
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: Those kind of things.
• 41:59
  And there are many scholars who've made different kinds of
• 42:02
  cultural dimensions on these topics.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_00: And they are sometimes helpful, sometimes not.
• 42:07
  But I think at least it's good to talk about the main culture
• 42:13
  in the room.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: for example,
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_00: when I have trainings with organizations and companies about this,
• 42:18
  I usually talk about the Swedish culture and how it is
• 42:21
  different from many other
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: cultures.
• 42:25
  Because that's a culture we all have to relate to if we work in
• 42:28
  a Swedish company.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: However,
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: to talk too much about cultures where we have a few employees from,
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: that can be quite problematic.
• 42:38
  Because then I can make my one Syrian employee the
• 42:41
  representative of Syrian culture
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: and that can be completely wrong.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: So it's also like there's a risk with that as well, I would say.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: We shouldn't make individuals become representatives of cultures.
• 42:53
  We should use this kind of cultural dimension as a window into
• 42:57
  the main culture and
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: talk about challenges or differences based on that.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_01: So is basically step number four about acquiring knowledge?
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: Now,
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: for example,
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: it is good if you work with,
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: since I work mainly with public sector in Sweden,
• 43:18
  it is good to know that there are some things that are quite
• 43:21
  different in Sweden
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: from how many other societies work.
• 43:27
  It's good to have that knowledge because then you can also be
• 43:30
  prepared for
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: situations where those cultural traits or preferences or values are being
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: challenged and you can be prepared for that.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's useful to know that.
• 43:42
  It seems that this one is vital and crucial simply because we
• 43:46
  have diverse
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_01: workplaces these days.
• 43:49
  Yeah.
• 43:52
  And so this puts more pressure on leaders to be interculturally
• 43:57
  competent.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: I would say so, definitely.
• 44:02
  I think it's quite hard not to consider it as a relevant
• 44:07
  competence for leadership today.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think this is where a lot of misunderstandings happen?
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, partly, definitely.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_00: Lack of knowledge tends to lead to misunderstandings.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_01: If you say something and I take it personally and then I go back home,
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_01: I tell my family,
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: I tell my colleagues,
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: maybe sometimes just ask the other person,
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: what do you mean?
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: What did you mean when you said that?
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: What did you mean when you did that?
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: But then it takes,
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_01: courage to,
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: because sometimes we are afraid of the answer,
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_01: what the answer might be,
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_01: or challenging somebody or giving somebody feedback.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, if you ask, you should first of all have time to listen.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: And if you ask,
• 45:00
  you should ask with the intention of really hearing what the
• 45:04
  other person has to
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: say.
• 45:05
  And just hearing what the other person has to say doesn't mean
• 45:07
  that you validate it.
• 45:11
  But it makes you to be in a situation where you can actually
• 45:17
  judge what you heard.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it might be that after listening, you get even more triggered.
• 45:22
  The person is doubling down on his racist or misogynic or
• 45:26
  whatever ideology.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_00: But then at least you have more validation for the right to be triggered.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe this is a situation where you should be triggered and now you know.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_00: So that can be a good thing as well.
• 45:40
  But I would say one thing also that when it comes to feedback,
• 45:44
  I would like to say two things.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_00: One thing is that feedback delivered without love is just brutal.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: if you give someone feedback,
• 45:53
  do it with the intention of either making their life better for
• 45:57
  that person,
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_00: if it's positive feedback,
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: or helping him or her improve something that needs to be improved.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: So do it with a good intention.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: And the other thing is timing.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: Consider when and where you give the feedback.
• 46:11
  If someone is stressed or in a hurry,
• 46:12
  that's not a good situation to give feedback.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: If someone going like Friday afternoon,
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: don't give employees negative feedback on a Friday afternoon.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to wreck their weekend.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a good timing.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_00: And also don't give feedback in front of an audience.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because you might have the best intentions.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's out of love.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: But if the timing is wrong or bad,
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's just not going to work.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's not going to happen anything good out of that, for sure.
• 46:51
  I mean,
• 46:51
  in my experience,
• 46:53
  the times where I've given feedback and I've started with...
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_01: you know, this is what I want to talk about and here is my intention.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_01: Even if it's a difficult subject, my experience is people listen more.
• 47:08
  But if I double down on them and I tell them,
• 47:10
  don't do this again,
• 47:12
  this is what you did.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like it.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: Don't do it again.
• 47:15
  Then the other person usually gets defensive and especially in
• 47:19
  some cultures,
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think in the West, we are pretty direct.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_01: We tell people what we think and what we say matters.
• 47:29
  But in some cultures,
• 47:31
  you have to be indirect in the way you deliver your feedback.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: And you can't just start delivering bad news.
• 47:39
  You have to talk about a subject,
• 47:41
  warm them up,
• 47:42
  and then give them the feedback.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_01: But at least in Sweden,
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_01: and this is my perspective,
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_01: is that if I'm going to deliver bad news,
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_01: I will let you know,
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_01: Patrick,
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_01: this conversation will be probably difficult for you,
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_01: but it's necessary because I want you to improve.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then I give you the feedback.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_01: But for instance,
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_01: in the Middle East,
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_01: this is not how you give feedback because the other person is going to,
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_01: they want to build trust first.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so you talk about something else.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then when you have established trust, you can give the feedback.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's part of it.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_00: I would like to say some things about that.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think that Sweden is semi-direct.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: Germany would be more direct.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_00: If you talk to a Dutch person, he would not say Swedes are direct.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_00: Dutch people are direct.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_00: There are no questions in between anything happening there.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: So we're not the world champions on directness.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_00: But definitely,
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_00: as you say,
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_00: if you compare to,
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: for example,
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: the Middle East or so many Asian cultures,
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: we are much more direct.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I might test an idea here.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not completely sure it's right.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_00: But could that have nothing to do with individualism?
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
• 49:00
  Because in many other cultures like,
• 49:01
  for example,
• 49:02
  the Middle East,
• 49:02
  it's much more collectivist.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then the notion of saving face becomes so important.
• 49:09
  So I think that's one of the reasons why you have to move like
• 49:12
  that to keep the
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: social fabric together.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas in a Swedish or even more Dutch German context,
• 49:20
  the individual is responsible for his or her actions and hence
• 49:25
  expects to get
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: feedback on them.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think that could be one of the explanations perhaps.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_01: In group oriented cultures,
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_01: it's also not only what you say,
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_01: and I think I heard this from you a couple of years ago,
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_01: but it's also how you say it and also what is said between the lines,
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: what is not said.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_00: Subtext.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: The context matters.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: Context matters and the subtext matters a lot.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_01: What do you mean by subtext?
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_00: Subtext is what you don't say like in between the lines.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like you say this, but you mean this.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_00: And to understand what this is, you need to understand the culture.
• 50:07
  So in order to understand what is not said,
• 50:09
  you have to understand the culture as well.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_00: And that quite often comes later than understanding the actual language,
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_00: the linguistic part of the language.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: This is very interesting.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so number four was knowledge and skills.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: What is number five?
• 50:25
  So number five is where the knowledge part goes into the
• 50:28
  competence part of the model.
• 50:29
  That's experiences and myself in situations where I can fail or
• 50:34
  succeed in an
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_00: intercultural encounter.
• 50:36
  And what I mean by that is that this is an experience made
• 50:41
  knowledge and competence.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_00: You can't just read about it in a book.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_00: That will take you so far.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_00: But in the end,
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: you have to meet people,
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: you have to learn by experience,
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_00: you have to learn by successes and failures,
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_00: what works and doesn't work in different environments.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_00: And there we also have to be a little bit kind to ourselves.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_00: for example,
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_00: now in Sweden,
• 51:01
  there are people in this country living here who are born in
• 51:04
  204 different nations.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_00: it's impossible for you,
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_00: it's impossible for me to know every kind of cultural trigger,
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_00: specificity and preference on each of these individuals.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: Once in a while, we will make mistakes.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: We will step on other people's toes.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's just part of life.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_00: And we shouldn't judge ourselves too harshly when it happens,
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_00: but we should be brave enough to think,
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: what happened?
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: What did I do?
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: Why did I fail?
• 51:33
  Why did this become a situation of conflict or friction or
• 51:36
  whatever word you want to use?
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_00: And how can I learn from that?
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_00: But if we always want to be safe,
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: if we never want to make a mistake,
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_00: we are going to stick around with people we know everything about.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to be really boring.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_00: We will not develop any competence on intercultural matters.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: I remember one time when we talked about this model a long time ago.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_01: I don't remember exactly how you framed it,
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_01: but you told me,
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_01: Ibrahim,
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_01: development requires friction.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_01: What do you mean by that?
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_00: Well, staying the way you are is quite safe, right?
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's pleasant.
• 52:18
  But realizing that you need to improve some things or change
• 52:21
  some things also means
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_00: that you have done things wrong until now somehow.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not an easy thing, right?
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: For example,
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_00: as a leader,
• 52:30
  when you learn how you can also be perceived or how some of
• 52:34
  your manners or some of
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_00: your conversation styles are not appreciated,
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_00: that's not a nice thing.
• 52:41
  But it's a necessary thing to develop your capacities and your
• 52:45
  competences.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_00: But I also think in relation to this,
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_00: yes,
• 52:50
  I think if I remember correctly how I usually talk about
• 52:53
  friction in relation to
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_00: this model,
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_00: it's like when I think about myself in Swedish society,
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_00: it's quite frictionless.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a man,
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm white,
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a citizen,
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_00: I have a pretty good education,
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_00: I have a pretty well-paying job,
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_00: I have a house,
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_00: I have a family,
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_00: I can walk,
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_00: I can talk,
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_00: I can see,
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_00: all those things.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm in many ways the norm.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_00: So when I walk through society,
• 53:18
  I don't really need to be afraid that I will be judged
• 53:24
  negatively based on my
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_00: gender,
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_00: my age,
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_00: my skin color,
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_00: stuff like that.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_00: There's quite little friction.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_00: But other people have a different experience in Sweden.
• 53:36
  And I just realized that a few years ago when I had my brother
• 53:39
  visiting from
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_00: Germany and we talked German on the tram in Gothenburg.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then I experienced something else.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_00: Then I had friction.
• 53:46
  A person came up to me and wanted to fight with me because I
• 53:49
  was apparently a Nazi.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_00: Just because of speaking German.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that was just a few years ago.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then, okay, this is how it also can be.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, if you speak Arabic, you can have similar experiences.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_00: If you have other skin colors, stuff like that.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_00: If you were a woman walking home alone an evening, stuff like that.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_00: We make different experiences from walking, from living in Sweden.
• 54:11
  And the willingness to create change doesn't really come from
• 54:14
  me because it's fine.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_00: Life is good.
• 54:17
  The willingness to create change comes from those people who
• 54:20
  have friction in their
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_00: life in Sweden.
• 54:24
  From the young gentleman from Malmö who's being pulled over by
• 54:27
  the police ten times
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_00: because he drives a car that is too nice.
• 54:32
  for someone like him,
• 54:33
  he will feel that life is not as nice as I would feel.
• 54:38
  So we need to be curious and open and having empathy to people
• 54:42
  who describe our
• 54:44
  society in a different way because society is different for
• 54:49
  different people.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_01: So as it relates to intercultural competence,
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_01: because I guess even if somebody has a privilege in a society,
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_01: when they meet somebody from another culture,
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_01: let's take,
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_01: for example,
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_01: that medical staff that challenged your wife after the delivery,
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_01: and I'm sorry about it.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_01: I can also assume that that was also a friction for her
• 55:24
  And maybe if she embraced that friction and said,
• 55:28
  look,
• 55:28
  I'm sorry,
• 55:29
  let's do it again.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_01: Can we take it again?
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_01: Can we do it again?
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_01: One more time.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to say hi.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to apologize.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_01: And let's do it again.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because I really want to help you.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_01: I assume that is also friction for her,
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_01: but also,
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_01: just apologizing and just saying,
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_01: hey,
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_01: I messed up,
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_01: let's do it again.
• 55:51
  That probably is going to create understanding and empathy from
• 55:54
  your wife.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's at least a very brave thing to do.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_00: I would have been impressed.
• 56:01
  I don't know if we would have been in a mental state where we
• 56:05
  would have been
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_00: interested in giving her a different chance.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_00: I cannot know.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because we were quite vulnerable in that situation.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_00: But it would definitely have been a very brave thing from her to do.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_00: And at least in retrospect, I would have appreciated that.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so I guess my point is when it comes to communication,
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_01: you can be the boss,
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_01: you can be the norm,
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_01: you can have power and privilege,
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_01: but you can also feel the friction.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 56:35
  Because of something you've said and how you led and a decision
• 56:39
  you made that other
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_01: people had different perspective.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_01: Perspective on.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_00: And like,
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_00: for example,
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_00: if you would take that as an example in Sweden,
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_00: you could also feel friction in relation to how society has changed,
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_00: how it has become more diverse.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_00: If your ideology is that this is not something positive,
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_00: of course,
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_00: you will feel friction when moving around in a more intercultural diverse
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_00: environment,
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_00: even if you are still the norm.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_00: So depending on your background,
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_00: we can feel and experience these things in many different ways,
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_00: of course.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_01: So the context and the social setting is very important.
• 57:18
  But I think I get the message that you had when you started
• 57:22
  talking about it,
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_01: because if you are a minority...
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_01: in any room,
• 57:28
  let's say you are the only woman in a board meeting or you are
• 57:32
  the only guy from
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_01: Middle East and in a company and so forth,
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_01: when you are the minority,
• 57:39
  you are probably experiencing more stress and friction in that
• 57:44
  environment.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_00: I would say that is probably often true.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_00: Not for everyone, but probably that would be very likely, yeah.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_01: So time is flying and I'm enjoying every second of this.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so what is step number six?
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, step number six is about reflection.
• 58:07
  It's just to think about and discuss our intercultural
• 58:09
  experiences so that we can
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_00: learn from them.
• 58:11
  And what I mean by that is that this is not a course you take
• 58:14
  and then you're done.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_00: Now you're intercultural competent.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's part of the lifelong learning process.
• 58:19
  This is something we need to revisit,
• 58:21
  talk about again,
• 58:23
  and have as a life practice.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_00: So the end of the model is an arrow going in a circle.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do it.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_00: Let's have it as something we come back to again.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_01: So reflection.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_01: So reflect on the experience, the result.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_00: All of these different steps.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have to reflect for five minutes, 10 minutes?
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_01: How often do you have to do it?
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_01: Because I don't have time.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just thinking about what people will say.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_01: There's no time for reflection.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think you need to have a time slot like that.
• 58:59
  I think that it's important as an organization to build
• 59:02
  reflection into a workflow,
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_00: to take time to evaluate things.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_00: Quite often we do something,
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_00: we're done with it,
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_00: we go to the next task,
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_00: but we don't often really have time to sit down and think,
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_00: what did we learn here?
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_00: And how can we apply this learning in our next situation?
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_00: So as an organization, I think it's important to schedule time for that.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_00: As an individual,
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean...
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_00: For me,
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_00: it wouldn't work to have five minutes every Monday to reflect.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_00: That wouldn't be a good strategy for me.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_00: For some people, that might be perfect.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_00: But for me,
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_00: it's more like being curious,
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_00: trying to take a pause when I feel challenged to see,
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_00: can I learn something from this situation?
• 59:49
  And quite often,
• 59:50
  a strategy I have is that at night before I fall asleep,
• 59:53
  I go through the day.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what happened today?
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_00: Was it something that I learned this day?
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_00: Is it something that I would like to do different tomorrow?
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_00: Just to think a little bit about that.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_00: And some days there's nothing.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_00: Some days there's a lot.
• 1:00:06
  But that helps me to sort my thoughts and to have some
• 1:00:09
  reflection time for myself.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_00: But everyone can find their own strategy, I guess, in that.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to do like this because I do it.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:00:19
  I guess this,
• 1:00:21
  the reflection part,
• 1:00:25
  I guess it fuels step number one,
• 1:00:28
  self-awareness.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, because if I reflect, how can I make this podcast better?
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_01: I remember I had a guest one time and he's a great communicator.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_01: And after the podcast,
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_01: he told me,
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_01: Ibrahim,
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_01: after every answer,
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_01: you tell me,
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_01: beautiful,
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_01: beautiful.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_01: Great, beautiful, beautiful.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know why I used the word beautiful.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so he said, think about it the next time.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, oh, okay, I'm going to do that.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so I watched my interview with him and it was true.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_01: I said beautiful after every sentence.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_00: Lovely.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah,
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_01: even if his answer was completely not beautiful,
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_01: but I still said it because it was an autopilot.
• 1:01:14
  And when I started to reflect on that and prepare and also be
• 1:01:19
  aware of it,
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_01: I was able and,
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't said beautiful today,
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_01: not even once.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_00: True.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, my word was interesting.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_00: I said that in the end of every sentence.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then in the end, it doesn't mean anything anymore, right?
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_00: If you say it all the time, it's just all the word.
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_01: But really taking the time, reflecting, and then it fuels self-awareness.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_01: So this is great advice.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_00: Good point.
• 1:01:50
  We've talked about the intercultural competence,
• 1:01:52
  which consists of six steps.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_01: Step number one was awareness.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_01: Number two is awareness of subjectivity.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_01: Number three, curiosity.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_01: Number four, knowledge and skills.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_01: Number five, experience.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_01: And number six, reflection.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so my question to you now, I know we're almost running out of time.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_01: My question to you is, how can leaders...
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_01: given what we've talked about,
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_01: how can leaders build teams where people can feel seen,
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_01: heard,
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_01: and understood no matter their background?
• 1:02:31
  Well,
• 1:02:31
  first of all,
• 1:02:33
  they have to stop thinking that they can build those teams.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:02:38
  What they can do is to create an environment where a team can
• 1:02:42
  develop these
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_00: capacities together.
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_00: And as a leader,
• 1:02:45
  you need to be a learner as much as a leader in that process
• 1:02:48
  because there are so
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_00: many things that you will not be thinking about.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_00: That would be my first take on that matter.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think one good strategy,
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_00: and there are so many things you could say,
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_00: but if I would just say one thing,
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_00: like quite often when you employ someone,
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_00: you have a starting discussion with that person.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_00: And organizations interested in learning,
• 1:03:12
  they also have a closer discussion when someone decides to
• 1:03:14
  leave because you can
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_00: learn a lot about what that person,
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_00: what made him or her leave.
• 1:03:18
  But another thing that you could have is to have an almost
• 1:03:22
  startup discussion,
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_00: like five or six months after employing someone.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because, I mean, when someone worked for a long time, you destroyed them.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_00: They become one of you.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_00: They have so many blind spots.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_00: And when they're new,
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_00: they're so much into,
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_00: how can I fit in here,
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_00: trying to be smooth,
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_00: trying to understand...
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_00: But when someone has worked for a while,
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_00: like half a year,
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_00: they're still fresh enough to see all your quirks,
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_00: all the strange habits,
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_00: all the things,
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_00: and remember how it used to be at the old workplace.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a good discussion to have.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what are we doing differently?
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_00: What are our practices that you think are good?
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_00: What things were better in another place?
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_00: How can we change, adapt, develop?
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_00: Those kind of discussions, I would invite leaders to start having more.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's very interesting.
• 1:04:15
  Very interesting because it forces you to listen and to also
• 1:04:20
  see the other perspective.
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_01: and help them feel included in their workplace.
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_02: Definitely.
• 1:04:32
  Do you think today's workplaces understand how much culture
• 1:04:38
  shapes communication?
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_00: I would say that they do it more than before.
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
• 1:04:48
  I think now,
• 1:04:50
  well,
• 1:04:50
  I'm talking from a Swedish perspective now,
• 1:04:52
  to be honest.
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_00: I have no idea on other countries and history there.
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I think our workforces become more diverse than before.
• 1:05:01
  And that brings individuals with different backgrounds and
• 1:05:04
  different knowledges.
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I think we are becoming better at it.
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_00: But there's still a lot of room for improvement, for sure.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 1:05:11
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_00: So we're getting better.
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think so.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_00: But yes, one thing is like representation.
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_00: If you are an organization that is often communicating with images,
• 1:05:22
  there has been a lot of talk in Sweden over the last 20 years
• 1:05:25
  about the importance
• 1:05:26
  of making the people you want to reach feel represented in your
• 1:05:30
  communication.
• 1:05:32
  It's like my girls,
• 1:05:34
  their skin color is half me,
• 1:05:35
  half the Tanzanian mother,
• 1:05:36
  so it's in between.
• 1:05:38
  And nowadays,
• 1:05:38
  it's easy for me to find children books where the characters
• 1:05:41
  look like them.
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_00: wouldn't have been easy 30 years ago.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_00: Today it is.
• 1:05:47
  SPEAKER_00: I can find strong warrior princesses being active,
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_00: having agency,
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_00: being cool,
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_00: that look like my girls,
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_00: that have the same kind of hair like my girls.
• 1:05:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that means something, right?
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's not unimportant.
• 1:06:03
  So I think this kind of thing that doesn't have to be like a
• 1:06:06
  Benetton commercial
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_00: where you have every differences in the same image.
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to be like that.
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_00: But on the whole,
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's one of the important aspects.
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_01: So you got to feel represented.
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_01: If you're an employee, you got to feel represented in the leadership.
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_00: Someone like me can work here, for example.
• 1:06:26
  Someone like me can work here,
• 1:06:27
  can be a leader,
• 1:06:28
  can be an influencer in society.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I think when you mentioned representation,
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_01: companies will benefit when their customers feel represented.
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to give you one example.
• 1:06:42
  I was invited a few years ago to give a talk in Stockholm on a
• 1:06:46
  project called Hitta
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_00: Rätt,
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_00: like find the right or find the right place.
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_00: It was a project for unaccompanied minors.
• 1:06:53
  And they had the city of Gothenburg had developed an
• 1:06:58
  educational material for these
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_00: youngsters,
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_00: how to teach them how Swedish society works.
• 1:07:02
  SPEAKER_00: Very nice program in every way.
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_00: And since I was in this project,
• 1:07:06
  I and two of the staff in the facility that worked with these
• 1:07:09
  kids were invited to
• 1:07:11
  SPEAKER_00: go to Stockholm to present this material.
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I told them, like, yeah, sure, I can come, no problem.
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_00: But if you want me to come,
• 1:07:18
  SPEAKER_00: you also have to pay the train ticket for two youngsters to accompany us,
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_00: to talk from their perspective on how this material was.
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, that is how I try to do things.
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like when I think of inclusion,
• 1:07:31
  I don't think it helps to say you as a privileged person should
• 1:07:35
  give your place to
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_00: someone else because who wants to do that?
• 1:07:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's not realistic.
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's not how people work.
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's not how society works.
• 1:07:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's going to help.
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_00: And also, it's downgrading your own importance.
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I had things to tell on that conference.
• 1:07:49
  I had valuable perspectives,
• 1:07:51
  but I didn't have all the valuable perspectives.
• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I used my privilege to include other people into this setting.
• 1:08:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that is a useful way to think about it.
• 1:08:03
  SPEAKER_00: And the last thing about leadership,
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to say that leaders tend to,
• 1:08:06
  SPEAKER_00: as humans tend to,
• 1:08:11
  value people who they feel similar to higher than people who
• 1:08:16
  they feel different
• 1:08:17
  SPEAKER_00: to.
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_00: for example,
• 1:08:19
  SPEAKER_00: if you have a program for internal leadership training,
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_00: many big organizations have that,
• 1:08:24
  SPEAKER_00: that we want to push our employees up into leadership positions.
• 1:08:29
  And if you have a system where the leaders are picking
• 1:08:32
  potential candidates,
• 1:08:34
  SPEAKER_00: there will be a tendency for the leadership to reproduce itself.
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_00: Many studies have shown that.
• 1:08:40
  SPEAKER_00: Malmö Stad, for example, City of Malmö is one good example of that.
• 1:08:43
  They have worked a lot on changing that kind of power structure
• 1:08:46
  in their own city
• 1:08:47
  SPEAKER_00: and leadership training programs.
• 1:08:49
  SPEAKER_00: So to think, can we have a different kind of registration?
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_00: Can we find our candidates in different ways?
• 1:08:57
  SPEAKER_00: Can we avoid reproducing the same patterns all the time?
• 1:09:05
  SPEAKER_00: There will be two perspectives on that matter.
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_01: I guess when we hire, there's some bias involved as well.
• 1:09:12
  SPEAKER_01: And we tend to hire people who remind us of who we are.
• 1:09:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_01: Just human nature.
• 1:09:18
  SPEAKER_00: And the irony is like,
• 1:09:20
  SPEAKER_00: we need you to hire someone who looks differently,
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_00: but thinks just like us.
• 1:09:28
  SPEAKER_01: But that's also not diversity though.
• 1:09:30
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 1:09:32
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, of course we have that tendency.
• 1:09:35
  If you listen to someone in an interview and that person says
• 1:09:37
  things that you can
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_00: really relate to,
• 1:09:39
  SPEAKER_00: you feel a connection,
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_00: the connection becomes easy.
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_00: You start feeling, yeah, this is someone I can work with.
• 1:09:44
  SPEAKER_00: He understands, this will work.
• 1:09:47
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas someone with a very different background,
• 1:09:49
  SPEAKER_00: it might need more work to get this kind of feeling of togetherness.
• 1:09:56
  SPEAKER_00: And one example of that, if I have time, yes.
• 1:09:59
  In many Swedish workplaces today,
• 1:10:01
  we have people talking different mother tongues,
• 1:10:03
  obviously.
• 1:10:04
  And I remember this from a while ago when we had a new employee
• 1:10:07
  at an organization
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_00: where I worked and she also came from Germany.
• 1:10:11
  And I was so psyched about this,
• 1:10:12
  like,
• 1:10:12
  yeah,
• 1:10:13
  finally another German person.
• 1:10:14
  SPEAKER_00: And we started talking German in the fika room, like the coffee room.
• 1:10:18
  And that felt really good until I realized that who of my
• 1:10:22
  Swedish colleagues would
• 1:10:24
  SPEAKER_00: now feel invited to join in in our conversation.
• 1:10:28
  Probably none if they don't also speak German because they
• 1:10:31
  don't know what we're
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_00: talking about because they don't understand the language.
• 1:10:34
  SPEAKER_00: So talking different languages in a workplace really creates us and them.
• 1:10:40
  It creates subgroups and that does not help if we want to have
• 1:10:43
  a bigger us.
• 1:10:45
  And I say that with a lot of love and respect for people who in
• 1:10:48
  an adult age have
• 1:10:49
  SPEAKER_00: learned a new language.
• 1:10:51
  I understand that speaking the learned language takes an effort
• 1:10:55
  and you're feeling
• 1:10:56
  very happy when you can leave that effort and just talk your
• 1:10:59
  mother tongue,
• 1:11:01
  SPEAKER_00: but it doesn't help.
• 1:11:03
  It does not help if we are going to work together because
• 1:11:05
  that's just going to
• 1:11:06
  SPEAKER_00: create different groups sitting there and different groups sitting there.
• 1:11:09
  And the problem is if we have a language group talking their
• 1:11:12
  language here,
• 1:11:12
  SPEAKER_00: having a really good time,
• 1:11:13
  SPEAKER_00: looking around,
• 1:11:14
  SPEAKER_00: laughing,
• 1:11:15
  SPEAKER_00: then the other group will think,
• 1:11:16
  SPEAKER_00: what are they talking about?
• 1:11:17
  SPEAKER_00: Are they talking about me?
• 1:11:18
  SPEAKER_00: Are they laughing about me?
• 1:11:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it will create this us and them that are really not helpful.
• 1:11:24
  So talking the same language is something that I would really
• 1:11:27
  want to emphasize as
• 1:11:29
  SPEAKER_00: an important thing in the workplace.
• 1:11:31
  SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
• 1:11:34
  I guess there's a different message here because not only
• 1:11:38
  talking the same
• 1:11:40
  SPEAKER_01: language,
• 1:11:40
  SPEAKER_01: but also inviting them,
• 1:11:43
  SPEAKER_01: making them feel welcome in the group.
• 1:11:47
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
• 1:11:48
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 1:11:49
  SPEAKER_01: Great, Patrick.
• 1:11:49
  SPEAKER_01: Let me ask you one more question.
• 1:11:51
  What can our listeners do starting today to become more
• 1:11:55
  competent in intercultural competence?
• 1:12:01
  SPEAKER_01: One small habit.
• 1:12:03
  SPEAKER_00: One small habit.
• 1:12:07
  The next time you meet a person whose perception or idea you
• 1:12:12
  feel is wrong or off,
• 1:12:14
  SPEAKER_00: challenge yourself to ask two more questions before you make a judgment.
• 1:12:21
  SPEAKER_00: And open questions.
• 1:12:23
  SPEAKER_01: So ask open questions, ask two questions before making a judgment.
• 1:12:28
  Yeah.
• 1:12:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's great.
• 1:12:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's beautiful.
• 1:12:32
  SPEAKER_01: Now I can say beautiful.
• 1:12:34
  SPEAKER_00: You did.
• 1:12:35
  SPEAKER_00: And now you meant it.
• 1:12:37
  SPEAKER_01: Now I meant it.
• 1:12:38
  SPEAKER_00: That was interesting.
• 1:12:39
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:12:43
  SPEAKER_01: Is there anything important that I haven't asked you about?
• 1:12:50
  I think we started the discussion with you talking about
• 1:12:54
  transformation and the
• 1:12:55
  SPEAKER_00: world being in a transformative phase.
• 1:12:57
  SPEAKER_00: And just to relay back to that a little bit,
• 1:13:00
  SPEAKER_00: when you talk about artificial intelligence,
• 1:13:03
  SPEAKER_00: and I,
• 1:13:03
  SPEAKER_00: of course,
• 1:13:04
  SPEAKER_00: do not know if this is going to make the world better or worse,
• 1:13:06
  SPEAKER_00: probably both,
• 1:13:07
  but at least it is a very useful tool when it comes to
• 1:13:09
  intercultural communication.
• 1:13:12
  It has never been as easy as today to translate between
• 1:13:16
  different languages.
• 1:13:17
  And also when you think about employing people with a less than
• 1:13:21
  perfect knowledge
• 1:13:23
  SPEAKER_00: of the language being spoken in the workplace,
• 1:13:25
  SPEAKER_00: it is very useful to use AI tools to explain things in simple Swedish,
• 1:13:31
  SPEAKER_00: for example,
• 1:13:31
  or translate things to other languages or help people write
• 1:13:37
  reports in a more
• 1:13:38
  SPEAKER_00: accurate and correct language.
• 1:13:41
  So I think we have a lot of things here that can help us in
• 1:13:43
  communication that we
• 1:13:44
  SPEAKER_00: didn't have before.
• 1:13:45
  SPEAKER_00: Just five years ago, we did not at all have these tools at our disposal.
• 1:13:50
  SPEAKER_00: But also, if you have a work report, you can also ask AI for feedback.
• 1:13:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's perfect in taking roles.
• 1:14:00
  SPEAKER_00: You can tell,
• 1:14:01
  SPEAKER_00: for example,
• 1:14:01
  SPEAKER_00: ChatGPT or Gemini or whatever service you use,
• 1:14:04
  SPEAKER_00: you are now an intercultural expert.
• 1:14:07
  And you are going to give me critical feedback about this text
• 1:14:10
  that I've wrote.
• 1:14:12
  SPEAKER_00: Please do that."
• 1:14:13
  SPEAKER_00: And you can give good insights.
• 1:14:14
  SPEAKER_00: You shouldn't use it as the right answer or as the true,
• 1:14:17
  SPEAKER_00: but you can use it as someone to give you an opportunity to reflect.
• 1:14:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how often do you have a colleague who actually has time to do that?
• 1:14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Now you have that colleague all the time in your cell phone.
• 1:14:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's quite cool.
• 1:14:29
  SPEAKER_00: Let's use that.
• 1:14:31
  SPEAKER_01: So use AI to your advantage, basically.
• 1:14:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:14:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's one more tool at our disposal.
• 1:14:39
  SPEAKER_00: Not the only tool we should use, but one more.
• 1:14:40
  SPEAKER_01: Not the only tool, but one more tool.
• 1:14:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:14:45
  SPEAKER_01: Where can people find you,
• 1:14:46
  SPEAKER_01: Patrick,
• 1:14:47
  SPEAKER_01: if they want to follow you or use your services or visit your website?
• 1:14:52
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe my LinkedIn account would be a good start.
• 1:14:55
  SPEAKER_00: My name, LinkedIn.
• 1:14:56
  SPEAKER_00: Please connect there and we can have a discussion.
• 1:14:59
  That would be the best way,
• 1:15:00
  I would think,
• 1:15:00
  because then we can have a dialogue.
• 1:15:03
  Otherwise,
• 1:15:03
  the website is more for Swedish people called
• 1:15:06
  samarbetsbolaget.se.
• 1:15:09
  SPEAKER_00: For an English audience, that translation would be the cooperation.
• 1:15:12
  SPEAKER_00: Cooperation doesn't make much sense,
• 1:15:14
  SPEAKER_00: but in Swedish language is a quite cool component name,
• 1:15:16
  SPEAKER_00: I would say.
• 1:15:18
  SPEAKER_01: So basically use LinkedIn.
• 1:15:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:15:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think that would be the best way.
• 1:15:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:15:22
  SPEAKER_01: So one last question here.
• 1:15:23
  SPEAKER_01: If you could give only one piece of advice,
• 1:15:28
  SPEAKER_01: all the books you've read,
• 1:15:29
  SPEAKER_01: all the articles you've written,
• 1:15:31
  SPEAKER_01: your wonderful experience.
• 1:15:33
  SPEAKER_01: If you could give us one piece of advice for a more meaningful life.
• 1:15:40
  SPEAKER_01: What would that be?
• 1:15:41
  SPEAKER_00: One advice.
• 1:15:45
  SPEAKER_00: Go and buy the book called The Prophet by Khalil Gibran.
• 1:15:50
  Read it together with someone you really care about and reflect
• 1:15:55
  upon the meaning of
• 1:15:56
  SPEAKER_00: the different chapters together.
• 1:15:58
  SPEAKER_00: That would be my one advice.
• 1:16:01
  SPEAKER_01: So buy the book The Prophet.
• 1:16:05
  SPEAKER_00: By Khalil Gibran.
• 1:16:06
  SPEAKER_01: By Khalil Gibran.
• 1:16:08
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful book.
• 1:16:12
  SPEAKER_00: And the different chapters are about different aspects of life,
• 1:16:14
  SPEAKER_00: like marriage,
• 1:16:16
  SPEAKER_00: parenthood,
• 1:16:17
  SPEAKER_00: wealth,
• 1:16:18
  SPEAKER_00: those kind of things.
• 1:16:19
  SPEAKER_00: And every chapter has like one topic.
• 1:16:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a very poetic book.
• 1:16:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's a very deep and meaningful book.
• 1:16:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's relevant across cultures.
• 1:16:29
  SPEAKER_01: This is not the first time I hear this book.
• 1:16:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm definitely going to buy it.
• 1:16:32
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you for that, Patrick.
• 1:16:34
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for your time.
• 1:16:35
  SPEAKER_01: I am confident our listeners have learned a lot today.
• 1:16:39
  SPEAKER_01: I have learned myself.
• 1:16:41
  I really enjoyed our conversation about the six-step model for
• 1:16:44
  intercultural competence.
• 1:16:47
  SPEAKER_01: Please continue to do what you do.
• 1:16:50
  SPEAKER_01: You are needed and very much appreciated.
• 1:16:53
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for coming to Speaking of Meaning today.
• 1:16:56
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for inviting me.
• 1:16:57
  I also really enjoyed this conversation and let's keep it up in
• 1:17:01
  other venues in the future.
• 1:17:03
  SPEAKER_01: We will.
• 1:17:04
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 1:17:07
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening to Speaking of Meaning.
• 1:17:10
  SPEAKER_01: If today's episode helped you see communication in a new way,
• 1:17:14
  SPEAKER_01: share it with someone you care about,
• 1:17:16
  SPEAKER_01: a friend,
• 1:17:16
  SPEAKER_01: a partner or a colleague who wants to grow.
• 1:17:19
  SPEAKER_01: And don't forget to follow the podcast so you never miss an episode.
• 1:17:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Ibrahim.
• 1:17:25
  SPEAKER_01: Until next time, better communication, greater impact.