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The Turnpike Rivalry: Steelers vs Browns · Pittsburgh Sports Memories

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Hello, and welcome to Pittsburgh Sports Memories.
0:03
SPEAKER_00: I am your co-host, Steve Wirt, and I'm joined by.
0:07
SPEAKER_01: I am Tim Hannon.
0:09
SPEAKER_00: And uh in this episode, it's going to be a very sucky episode because uh we talk about Cleveland and we know Cleveland sucks.
0:32
SPEAKER_00: Some fun facts, Tim.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: Hey, did you know that Cleveland's number one export is crippling depression?
0:38
SPEAKER_00: Or that you can buy a house for the price of a used VTR.
0:42
SPEAKER_00: And uh their whole economy is based on LeBron James, I do believe.
0:46
SPEAKER_01: So at least that's what the song says.
0:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
0:50
SPEAKER_00: Well, they're not Detroit, so right.
0:54
SPEAKER_00: Um uh but on this series, uh, we're gonna look at uh the history of one of the most heated rivalries in Pittsburgh Sports.
1:01
SPEAKER_00: And uh we're gonna remember such things as uh Turkey Jones, Miles Garrett, Eric Metcraft, Vinny Testaverdi.
1:09
SPEAKER_00: And uh that made this uh the primary rivalry in Pittsburgh Sports for years.
1:14
SPEAKER_00: And um, but unfortunately this rivalry now seems to like be in a lower tier of rivalries than uh it used to be.
1:23
SPEAKER_00: So um we'll kind of discuss all that and uh remember some fun times with the rivalry and some not fun times.
1:30
SPEAKER_00: So uh I kind of broke this down into what did I say, I think four different eras.
1:37
SPEAKER_00: So uh we'll start with um the classic era, which I will call 1980 to 1995.
1:45
SPEAKER_00: This is probably me and Tim.
1:48
SPEAKER_00: Tim probably remember more of the earlier stuff than I will because I really didn't get into the Steelers till 92.
1:54
SPEAKER_00: So um I've not seen much Cleveland success.
1:59
SPEAKER_00: So maybe maybe that's why.
2:01
SPEAKER_00: But Tim Tim, uh, what do you think of the the Browns here?
2:07
SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, I mean, like you said, we'll get it Just overall.
2:11
SPEAKER_00: It just you don't have to do them over.
2:13
SPEAKER_01: Overall, they're they're a franchise that used to be really proud, and and really in the last however many years they've been sort of a joke.
2:23
SPEAKER_01: Uh it would be kind of nice.
2:25
SPEAKER_01: It was kind of nice a few years ago when they seemed like they were getting back into being competitive.
2:30
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and then even, you know, um they've had some good seasons recently, but then they and then they went out and signed Deshaun Watson, so that made you hate them even more.
2:39
SPEAKER_01: But um, I I don't know, it's never it's never quite reached the heights that it used to be, unfortunately.
2:46
SPEAKER_00: All right, well, we'll get into that in a little bit, but um, so we'll start up with uh the Browns in 1980.
2:53
SPEAKER_00: And um when did you start going to games, Tim?
2:56
SPEAKER_00: Like 85 or 18.
2:57
SPEAKER_01: 1987 is when we started going uh the games.
3:01
SPEAKER_00: Well that's okay.
3:03
SPEAKER_00: So you've missed this one in 1980.
3:05
SPEAKER_00: The uh they were the Cardiac kids.
3:08
SPEAKER_00: Cleveland finally wins against the Steelers, and this was in Cleveland, and they win 27 to 26.
3:15
SPEAKER_00: Um, they had a big late game comeback.
3:17
SPEAKER_00: Brian Saipe, the immortal Brian Saipe, threw two late touchdowns to win the game.
3:23
SPEAKER_00: So uh that was kind of a big turning point because they had uh really been dominated by the Steelers in the decade prior previous.
3:31
SPEAKER_00: So um now we're gonna go to Steelers, Browns, 1985.
3:36
SPEAKER_00: Um, this game Tim had covered in his uh what was it, TV intros.
3:40
SPEAKER_00: Um the the Steelers had a long winning streak, and it looked like at this point that the Cleveland was the better team, and they were probably gonna finally win in Pittsburgh.
3:51
SPEAKER_00: They had, of course, won in Cleveland.
3:54
SPEAKER_00: Um and Art Modell actually made the two-hour trek to Pittsburgh.
3:58
SPEAKER_00: And you know, Art Modell was really a big fan of Pittsburgh.
4:02
SPEAKER_00: He loved Pittsburgh, so much so that he said it's always a frightening adventure to go to Pittsburgh because it's a hard drinking, menacing crowd.
4:11
SPEAKER_00: Maybe he just liked horror movies or was a fan of like scary rides or something.
4:17
SPEAKER_01: I feel like that's another one of those things that would have been a much bigger controversy had he said that today.
4:22
SPEAKER_00: It's a hard drinking.
4:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, just just kind of like disparaging the whole town from another NFL owner.
4:29
SPEAKER_01: I feel like that would have caused a stir more today, but well, it was 1985 and people were used to this kind of stuff.
4:38
SPEAKER_00: Um I like Tibet uh said, uh, it ends up being a low scoring game because it's played in a torrential downpour.
4:45
SPEAKER_00: What is this like October?
4:47
SPEAKER_00: I think it was October in Pittsburgh or November.
4:51
SPEAKER_00: Um and uh Walter Abercrombie of you know Abercrombie and Fitch um scores a 32-yard TD run for the Steelers.
5:02
SPEAKER_00: And um former my Mike Barr, Matt Barr, who was a former Steeler at that point, he actually kicks three field goals for the Browns.
5:10
SPEAKER_00: So at the end of the game, it was a 9-7 Cleveland in the final minutes, and uh Steelers quarterback David Woodley actually drives them into field goal range, and out comes Gary Anderson, and he doesn't miss big kicks.
5:26
SPEAKER_00: Well, at least not on turf normally, except for that one time, and uh he hits a big big kick in the rain, and um I call this the uh November Rain game, so we'll say it happened November because Art Modell at the end of this game looks like Axl Rose at the end of the November Rain video where he's just like sad and depressed and in the rain.
5:47
SPEAKER_00: And I guess the CPS music played as as that happened.
5:51
SPEAKER_00: So though it would be cool if somebody like could montage that into the November rain and just have Art Modell standing there watching the Steelers win again.
6:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that was such a big deal because by that point the Browns were the better team.
6:07
SPEAKER_01: The Steelers were were clearly you know into their 80s funk, and and it's like okay, finally Cleveland's gonna break the streak of having never won at Three River Stadium for literally it was the 16th season.
6:21
SPEAKER_01: Like 16 years they'd never won at that stadium, and they're gonna come in, they're gonna win.
6:26
SPEAKER_01: And and it's pouring down rain, and the Stewart have a shot at a last second field goal, and they hit it, and it's just yeah, that look on Modell's face is priceless because it's just like, are you kidding me?
6:37
SPEAKER_01: Like, like, what are we are we ever gonna win in this building?
6:40
SPEAKER_01: Like it's just impossible, apparently.
6:43
SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, it it it wasn't impossible, and they always say it's darkest before the dawn, because in 1986 the Browns come to Pittsburgh and they finally win 27 to 24.
6:54
SPEAKER_00: And um, I think that's all we need to say.
6:56
SPEAKER_00: So Tim was not at this game.
6:58
SPEAKER_00: I was hoping you were at this game, Tim.
7:00
SPEAKER_01: No, but I was there for one that you're probably gonna talk about a couple of years later.
7:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
7:05
SPEAKER_00: Um, of course, in uh 1988, uh the last time, this is the last time the Browns swept the Steelers.
7:15
SPEAKER_00: Meaning they won both in Pittsburgh and on the road.
7:20
SPEAKER_00: So you might have been there for for that that Steeler loss.
7:24
SPEAKER_00: Well, the 80s were not kind to the Steelers, were they?
7:28
SPEAKER_01: They weren't kind of the Steelers.
7:29
SPEAKER_01: Plus, Cleveland was really good in the in the late 80s.
7:32
SPEAKER_01: I mean, they had a really good team.
7:34
SPEAKER_00: That was 88, so they had like you know, Kozar and I don't know if they had Byner yet.
7:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Ernest Byner and Webster Slaughter, and and they had a really good defense too.
7:45
SPEAKER_01: Guys like Clay Matthews and Frank Minifield, they just had a good they just had a good team.
7:49
SPEAKER_01: Mart Marty Schottenheimer was their coach.
7:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
7:53
SPEAKER_00: So there, you know, in 89, of course, this is the big Browns blowout game.
7:58
SPEAKER_00: Tim's talked about this before.
8:00
SPEAKER_00: 51 to nothing.
8:01
SPEAKER_00: And Tim, do you know fun fact about this game?
8:05
SPEAKER_00: You want to know fun fact?
8:06
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
8:07
SPEAKER_00: It's the largest loss in Steelers history.
8:10
SPEAKER_01: Oh, nice.
8:11
SPEAKER_00: So you were there.
8:12
SPEAKER_00: You witnessed it.
8:13
SPEAKER_00: Did you stay all the way to the final buzzer or did you leave?
8:17
SPEAKER_01: Oh, my dad and I left.
8:18
SPEAKER_01: I think I think the play where we like a 34 to nothing or something.
8:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they ran a I don't remember at what point in the game this was, but I'm pretty sure they were already down by 30.
8:28
SPEAKER_01: And they ran, I want to say it was a reverse to Lewis Lips.
8:32
SPEAKER_01: And just trying to get something going on offense.
8:35
SPEAKER_01: And the guy for Cleveland, instead of tackling him, he just ripped the ball out of Lewis Lips' arms and ran it back the other way for a touchdown.
8:43
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
8:44
SPEAKER_01: And we're just like, okay, that's it.
8:46
SPEAKER_01: We're done.
8:46
SPEAKER_01: My dad and I just just were like, okay, it's gonna be that kind of season, isn't it?
8:51
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
8:54
SPEAKER_00: He walked back to the car.
8:55
SPEAKER_01: Walk back to the car.
8:57
SPEAKER_00: Was that the Allegheny Center years too?
8:59
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's a lot of things.
9:01
SPEAKER_00: That's a little bit of a walk, too, yeah.
9:03
SPEAKER_01: It was.
9:03
SPEAKER_01: But uh, yeah, Allegheny Center Mall is where we used to park back in the day.
9:08
SPEAKER_01: And uh, and if we got there early enough, my dad would let me go to the the arcade that was in the in the uh next to the mall food court and play, you know, whatever game was popular in 1989, Teenage Meet and Ninja Turtles or something like that.
9:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
9:26
SPEAKER_00: Button smasher game, yeah.
9:28
SPEAKER_00: There.
9:28
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
9:30
SPEAKER_00: So uh I I still can't get over that 88 the year before is the last time Cleveland swept the series.
9:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
9:38
SPEAKER_00: There's people there there are Steeler fans that have lived their whole lives and never seen Cleveland win both games.
9:43
SPEAKER_01: So that's a good point.
9:46
SPEAKER_01: That 1989 season, another fun fact there was at the time of this recording, that was still the last time that Cleveland won the division.
9:56
SPEAKER_00: And and a division that doesn't even exist anymore.
9:59
SPEAKER_00: Right.
10:00
SPEAKER_00: Teams that aren't even in that division.
10:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like Houston is.
10:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the the Houston Oilers, who don't exist anymore, have have won Cleveland's division more recently than Cleveland has won Cleveland's division.
10:13
SPEAKER_01: The Jacksonville Jaguars, who no longer play in that division, have not played in Cleveland's division for over 20 years, have won their division more recently than Cleveland has won their division.
10:22
SPEAKER_01: So there you go.
10:24
SPEAKER_00: Cleveland sucks.
10:26
SPEAKER_00: Cleveland sucks.
10:27
SPEAKER_00: Um, so now, you know, after that, uh the Steelers did later that season go on to make the divisional round of the playoffs, and they lose to the Broncos.
10:36
SPEAKER_00: They actually have like a an interesting season.
10:38
SPEAKER_00: They turned it around after that 51 to nothing blowout loss.
10:42
SPEAKER_00: So kudos to Chuck Knowle and the other players on that team.
10:47
SPEAKER_00: You know, whoever who was their quarterback?
10:49
SPEAKER_00: Mark Malone, Bobby Brister, I don't know.
10:51
SPEAKER_00: That was probably Bobster.
10:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
10:55
SPEAKER_00: So in uh the no, this is the first real Cleveland memory.
10:59
SPEAKER_00: I remember a couple games in '92, but I remember this one.
11:02
SPEAKER_00: This was like probably one of my favorite Steeler playoff games of all time.
11:07
SPEAKER_00: Um 94.
11:09
SPEAKER_00: Um, the Steelers have actually beaten Cleveland twice in close games, too.
11:14
SPEAKER_00: I remember one came down to a last like defensed pass, then that they knocked a pass away in the end zone, like a Vinny Test of already passed to win the game.
11:24
SPEAKER_00: And I just remember the whole week.
11:26
SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness, it was hype.
11:28
SPEAKER_00: And you can't beat a team three times, and nobody just the whole week.
11:33
SPEAKER_00: And you know, everybody was like, yo, was nervous and just nervously excited for the game.
11:39
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, boy, the Steelers just came down and lay laid an absolute butt whooping on the on the Browns.
11:47
SPEAKER_00: I think what was the final score?
11:49
SPEAKER_00: 30 something to nine, or it was 20.
11:52
SPEAKER_01: I I want to say, and I don't have this in front of me, but I want to say it was 29 to 9.
11:56
SPEAKER_00: It was like an odd score because they got a safety at the end.
11:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, they got a safety.
12:01
SPEAKER_00: And it was just like, and it was Bill Belichick and you know Testa Verde, like people always want to rip on Testa Verde, like, but he wasn't a terrible quarterback.
12:11
SPEAKER_00: It's just if you go back and watch that game, there's a guy named Doyle Alexander, a receiver for the Browns.
12:18
SPEAKER_00: Like, he's wide open early in that game, and he drops like two or three easy passes.
12:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
12:24
SPEAKER_00: Like if he catches that, it's probably like maybe Cleveland's offense gets going and it's a different game.
12:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Derek Alexander was a I want to say a rookie.
12:33
SPEAKER_01: I say dole, I meant Derek as far as yeah, he was a rookie, and I think he just had like the jitters of like, oh boy, this is the biggest game I've ever played in, and it's on the road, and everybody's screaming.
12:44
SPEAKER_01: Uh and and it's like you said, no one would ever remember that because it's like, well, it's a 20-point loss, it didn't mean anything, but those things do matter in terms of momentum.
12:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and I will say this, John L.
12:55
SPEAKER_00: Williams ended up with like a 40-yard like run out of nowhere.
12:59
SPEAKER_00: He was like a really old player by that point.
13:02
SPEAKER_00: He was just kind of like had one more year in it.
13:04
SPEAKER_00: He had a solid year.
13:05
SPEAKER_00: I think he actually played two years, didn't he?
13:08
unknown: Yeah.
13:08
SPEAKER_00: He played this year and the next, yeah.
13:10
SPEAKER_00: And I mean, it was kind of weird.
13:12
SPEAKER_00: It was like, wow, John L.
13:13
SPEAKER_00: Williams is scoring a touchdown.
13:14
SPEAKER_00: What the heck?
13:15
SPEAKER_01: So Yeah, it was like a draw play.
13:17
SPEAKER_01: I I want to say it must have been like, I don't know, third and short or something.
13:21
SPEAKER_01: Because I yeah, Cleveland had a bunch of people close to the line, and he just ripped it through the middle and went all the way.
13:26
SPEAKER_01: That was actually the first, I want to say the first touchdown of the game.
13:29
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and then it just kind of piled on from there.
13:32
SPEAKER_00: And then he threw some interceptions and they got that safety, and yeah, it was just kind of all over from there.
13:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that that season, like you said, Steve, uh I mean, that you and I were seniors in high school that year.
13:45
SPEAKER_01: I I I remember that season so vividly because that's that was really peak Steelers Browns.
13:53
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you really hated Cleveland that year.
13:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah just because they were they were such a bitter rival.
13:58
SPEAKER_01: And that that first game in Cleveland, uh the Browns actually Vinny throws a touchdown pass in the final minute to take the lead, but it got called back on a holding call that the Browns thought were was a bogus holding call.
14:15
SPEAKER_01: And and uh that was the big talk after that game, like oh, the referees key to Cleveland and Cleveland should have won, and blah, blah, blah.
14:23
SPEAKER_01: And then and then they didn't come to Pittsburgh until all the way in December for the second game.
14:28
SPEAKER_01: And that that gave the Steelers a division.
14:30
SPEAKER_01: Another game where Vinny threw some bad interceptions.
14:35
SPEAKER_00: Well, it still was close at the end of the game.
14:37
SPEAKER_00: They still had a chance to win it.
14:39
SPEAKER_00: Like, I just remember like I don't know if it was Woodson or somebody knocked a pass away at the end in the end zone.
14:44
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't like a Hail Mary either, it was a close play in the end zone.
14:49
SPEAKER_00: So Yeah.
14:51
SPEAKER_01: So both games were really close, and then like you said, the playoff game, it's like, oh my gosh, this is like you said, you can't beat a team three times.
14:58
SPEAKER_01: That's that's this is Cleveland's finally gonna pull it out here, and then and then that then ended up being the blowout.
15:04
SPEAKER_01: That was kind of odd that that was the blowout.
15:07
SPEAKER_00: It was cathartic.
15:08
SPEAKER_00: I felt cathartic.
15:09
SPEAKER_00: I was like, oh yeah, especially like after being a Pitt fan, and every big game Pitt was in, they always seemed to lose, and the Pirates, every time they were in a big game, they seemed to lose.
15:18
SPEAKER_01: So Well, and the and the Steelers for really 14 years at that point.
15:23
SPEAKER_00: You know, you gotta remember, Tim, I didn't live that experience like you did.
15:27
SPEAKER_00: Like I'd only been in there.
15:28
SPEAKER_01: So, but it was cathartic for all of those uh all of us that were waiting for that return to glory.
15:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and that seemed like the season where it was gonna happen, and now we had just vanquished our rivals three times, and we're gonna play San Francisco in the Super Bowl.
15:43
SPEAKER_00: Oh, because it's a pesky San Diego team with some guy named Stan Humphreys and Junior Sale.
15:49
SPEAKER_01: Dennis Gibson and yeah, all that fun stuff.
15:54
SPEAKER_00: But this was exciting.
15:55
SPEAKER_00: I still like this playoff.
15:56
SPEAKER_00: One of my favorite playoff wins of all time, especially because Cleveland and and who knew, you know, what it would go on to mean.
16:03
SPEAKER_00: But in '95 the next year, um there there was uh I I I want to say I don't know the timing of when did Art Bell Dell announce he was gonna move the team.
16:16
SPEAKER_00: Was it before this?
16:17
SPEAKER_00: Yes, because you guys all wore the armbands to the game in Three River Stadium, saying keep the Browns in Cleveland, right?
16:27
SPEAKER_00: So it was before that game, yeah.
16:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so so the Steelers and Browns were gonna play each other twice in '95.
16:34
SPEAKER_01: Both games were in November, and it was over the span of three weeks.
16:38
SPEAKER_01: It was literally like one of those we they play us in Pittsburgh, and then two weeks later we play them in Cleveland.
16:44
SPEAKER_01: And and Modell made the announcement, I want to say like September.
16:48
SPEAKER_01: It was early in this, it was during the season.
16:50
unknown: Yes.
16:50
SPEAKER_01: And it was early in the season.
16:52
SPEAKER_01: And then, of course, there was this long protracted, you know, um fight where the the Browns uh the I'm sorry, the Cleveland like uh city officials were trying to fight it with the NFL, and you know, obviously all that was to no avail.
17:07
SPEAKER_01: But but yes, by the time the Browns were coming here, they first of all they they they had a bad record.
17:14
SPEAKER_01: Because remember, 95 was supposed to be like the year they were going to the Super Bowl.
17:18
SPEAKER_01: Like they had to be a good thing.
17:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, once he made that announcement, the team fell apart, right?
17:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he killed he killed all their momentum that year.
17:25
SPEAKER_00: Well, too, I think I think didn't didn't Tessavardi get hurt or something.
17:30
SPEAKER_01: Because I think they Yeah, they had some I think they had some injuries too, but I mean really, like you said, they had no chance because the whole season was gonna just be defined by the move.
17:40
SPEAKER_01: And and it was just that was a Monday night football game, the game you're talking about in Pittsburgh, because that was supposed to be like this huge matchup in November.
17:49
SPEAKER_01: Both teams would be presumably competing for the division, and they're gonna meet in Pittsburgh.
17:54
SPEAKER_01: Let's put it on national TV, it's gonna be the game of the week.
17:57
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and then it was a very different setting than what you would have expected by that point.
18:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and this is the game.
18:04
SPEAKER_00: I think we've showed this highlight uh before, like in Amazing Players or one of the other podcasts where Cordell runs like sideline to sideline and throws a touchdown pass.
18:13
SPEAKER_00: The Steelers win 20-3.
18:16
SPEAKER_00: Um, it wasn't like complete Cleveland was completely uncompetitive, but I think who'd they have, like Eric Seyer or somebody not very good at quarterback?
18:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
18:26
SPEAKER_01: That was that was the breakout game for Cordell.
18:28
SPEAKER_01: They had never really used him before that game.
18:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah in any kind of a slash roll.
18:33
SPEAKER_00: The slash roll started then, yeah.
18:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
18:37
SPEAKER_00: So and the Steelers actually, like you said, go to Cleveland a couple weeks later and win 20-17, and I'm sure that was a backbreaker.
18:45
SPEAKER_00: I can't remember.
18:46
SPEAKER_00: I think I think Cleveland did beat Cincinnati in the in their last home game in Cleveland that year, if I remember correctly.
18:54
SPEAKER_01: They they did.
18:55
SPEAKER_01: They did.
18:55
SPEAKER_01: And the last game that the Steelers played there was, like you said, a close game.
19:00
SPEAKER_01: Um the Steelers won.
19:02
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's one thing, out of all the things in his rivalry, that's one thing I don't miss was that field was uh I mean, I'm not that I'm they used to say it was mud.
19:11
SPEAKER_00: I heard Tanjioken call it mud that they painted green.
19:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
19:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:16
SPEAKER_01: I mean, my Myron Cope and I I don't know if it was him and Hillgrove or him and Jack Fleming used to talk about.
19:23
SPEAKER_01: Uh they used to, I guess, pee off the balcony of the radio booth, like not into the stands, but like the other direction, because something about the bathrooms weren't anywhere close to they would put them way up high.
19:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
19:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
19:37
SPEAKER_01: I mean it was it was a it was a not a nice stadium.
19:40
SPEAKER_01: And then it had that, remember it had that like a little hill in the end zone?
19:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:46
SPEAKER_00: Well, it was like it was built, it it was Memorial Stadium and it was built for the Olympics.
19:51
SPEAKER_00: Cleveland was trying to uh attract the Olympics, and that's why it was like a 80,000 seat stadium or something ridiculous.
19:58
SPEAKER_00: It was ridiculously huge.
20:00
SPEAKER_00: And the and the worst part was the Indians used to play there.
20:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
20:04
SPEAKER_00: Or guardians or whatever they're called this week.
20:07
SPEAKER_00: But so could you imagine trying to ha have a baseball game in an 80,000 seat stadium like regularly?
20:14
SPEAKER_00: That would be crazy.
20:15
SPEAKER_01: And and that's what one of the things that Modell was upset about was they they built the Indians and uh a a beautiful new stadium, Jacobs Field, which what was what it was called at the time.
20:25
SPEAKER_01: That had opened like in '94, and then uh uh the Cavaliers had gotten a new arena too.
20:32
SPEAKER_01: So it's like it's like they were building everybody in Cleveland these new new uh facilities, and then the Browns are playing in this place that was kind of falling apart.
20:41
SPEAKER_01: I I again Modell, that was terrible what he did.
20:45
SPEAKER_01: He ripped the guts out of those poor people in Cleveland.
20:48
SPEAKER_01: Um at the same time, you know, he definitely had some valid concerns.
20:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't know.
20:53
SPEAKER_00: Like maybe, I mean, maybe he should have been more patient, maybe he couldn't be more patient.
20:58
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
20:59
SPEAKER_00: Maybe like like I said before, maybe there was another plan, like, you know, don't move out of Cleveland, just move the team like way out of the town, and you know find a suburb that or that is desperate.
21:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you could still call them the Cleveland.
21:15
SPEAKER_01: You you had made a suggestion about the Pirates if they really wanted to play hardball.
21:19
SPEAKER_01: You know, go go build something in in Washington County or even West Virginia, you still call them the Pittsburgh Pirates, but now they're way out of town.
21:26
SPEAKER_01: Again, like in plenty of other teams have done that.
21:28
SPEAKER_01: The Patriots, the Chicago Bears.
21:31
SPEAKER_00: The Cavaliers, one of the reasons they moved was because their old arena, I remember that, because I went to that old arena was like an hour outside of Cleveland.
21:41
SPEAKER_00: So Yeah.
21:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
21:43
SPEAKER_01: Detroit, right?
21:44
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't uh the Silver.
21:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the palace was up in uh Pontiac.
21:48
SPEAKER_00: Pontiac, right, yeah.
21:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was it's like an hour north of Detroit.
21:53
SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
21:53
SPEAKER_01: Uh you're right.
21:54
SPEAKER_01: There I'm sure there could have been other solutions.
21:56
SPEAKER_01: I that always struck me as like Hurt feelings.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: Like he was just hurt that the like he had he had invested all this energy in the city over the years and given the people this football team that they loved and nobody was willing to do anything for him.
22:11
SPEAKER_01: He's just like, fine, I'm I'm I'm leaving.
22:13
SPEAKER_01: And then like, you know, and like you never thought I would do it, right?
22:18
SPEAKER_01: You never thought I'd I'd actually pull that trigger, and now I will, and now now you'll feel the pain of this.
22:23
SPEAKER_01: But really, that wasn't fair to the fans.
22:25
SPEAKER_01: I mean you can if if that was fair to the politicians or whoever the people that that hosed him, it wasn't fair to the fans.
22:34
SPEAKER_00: Well, I don't know.
22:34
SPEAKER_00: Did I don't remember if he threatened or not.
22:37
SPEAKER_00: Did he ever threaten to move them and just got laughed out?
22:39
SPEAKER_00: Or I don't know.
22:41
SPEAKER_01: All good questions, yeah.
22:42
SPEAKER_00: I mean the the the the uh we'll leave that for the uh Cleveland Browns podcast.
22:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, ESPN Classic used to do a a show years ago.
22:50
SPEAKER_01: It was called like the five reasons you can't blame somebody for something.
22:55
SPEAKER_01: Do you remember that?
22:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:56
SPEAKER_01: It was a really big show.
22:58
SPEAKER_00: I think they did one like on uh uh what's his name?
23:01
SPEAKER_00: Um the guy who missed the ground ball for Boston.
23:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Bill Butner.
23:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah they didn't want to they actually did one speaking in Cleveland, they did one on Ernest Bynor with the fumble.
23:11
SPEAKER_01: Um Steve Bartman, the guy for the Cubs, the the fan that got in the way of the foul ball.
23:16
SPEAKER_01: Like all these all these people that are kind of they're like they would take a narrative from sports history and it would kind of give you some opposing like things to think about.
23:25
SPEAKER_01: And I always thought that was a really good, a really good show.
23:28
SPEAKER_01: And they did one on Modell.
23:30
SPEAKER_01: And it it again, like I said, he it wasn't it wasn't just an old misery who was like, I'm taking Mike J more because I'll get all this millions of dollars, and I don't care what any of you think.
23:40
SPEAKER_01: It was it was a lot more complex than that.
23:44
SPEAKER_00: As things mostly are.
23:46
SPEAKER_00: So um of this era, we'll call the Tim and Steve era.
23:50
SPEAKER_00: Who dominated?
23:51
SPEAKER_00: Every era I'm gonna say who dominated.
23:53
SPEAKER_00: Um I'm gonna call this one a push because the Steelers did edge the Browns 18 to 17.
24:00
SPEAKER_00: So uh even when the Browns dominated, they didn't dominate.
24:04
SPEAKER_00: So haha.
24:07
SPEAKER_00: So next we will go to an era that we'll briefly touch on because I don't want to talk about it because Cleveland uh dominated it, but I will call this ancient history.
24:18
SPEAKER_00: Yes, Zach and the Mesopotamia, Mesopotamia and the Sumerians and the Fertile Crescent.
24:24
SPEAKER_00: The Cleveland Browns were playing football there uh between the Tigris and the Euphrates.
24:30
SPEAKER_00: So um the first game, uh, of course, you know, Cleveland, I don't know their whole history, but they were definitely a football team before 1950, and they played in some weird league.
24:41
SPEAKER_00: Like imagine a USFL team like coming to the NFL and like dominating right off the get.
24:47
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's kind of what the Browns did.
24:49
SPEAKER_00: It's actually exactly what the Browns did.
24:52
SPEAKER_00: So in the first game between the Steelers and Browns, you gotta remember this is 1950.
24:56
SPEAKER_00: The Steelers stink.
24:57
SPEAKER_00: They win 30 to 17.
24:59
SPEAKER_00: So you figure, well, the Steelers will get them next time or next year, right?
25:04
SPEAKER_00: No, Tim, it would take eight straight seasons for the Steelers to win.
25:09
SPEAKER_00: Cleveland would win eight straight seasons in a row, both times.
25:15
SPEAKER_00: So in 1954, the Steelers finally beat the Browns 55-27 on a great performance by Ray Matthews.
25:23
SPEAKER_00: He had 150 yards receiving and three touchdowns, and you can say, who was Ray Matthews, Steve?
25:29
SPEAKER_00: And I would say, well, he was a running backslash end.
25:32
SPEAKER_00: He's also in the Steelers Hall of Honor.
25:34
SPEAKER_00: He's actually from McKeesport.
25:36
SPEAKER_00: He did play college college football at Clemson, and he's actually in the Clemson Hall Athletic Hall of Fame.
25:43
SPEAKER_00: And um, he was the reason he was like a running back, and like I guess they didn't have the formations like they do now.
25:49
SPEAKER_00: So I think he was more of a wide receiver or like a running back they tried to run outside with because of he was the backup to, of course, hey diddle diddle, roguel up the middle, if you remember that from boy, how many years ago was that podcast, Tim?
26:05
SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, that was an early, early one we did about uh the the I think I think we called it the Steelers Dark Ages.
26:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
26:12
SPEAKER_00: So they used to have this guy, Fran Rogell, who was kind of like think Meryl Hodge, I don't know, Bayam Morris.
26:20
SPEAKER_00: And they would just every every the start every game, they would just run him right at the line.
26:25
SPEAKER_00: So that was the creativity of Buddy Parker or or was that Keisling?
26:30
SPEAKER_00: Probably Keisling.
26:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, probably Keysling.
26:33
SPEAKER_01: And and and you talked about formations.
26:35
SPEAKER_01: That's one of the reasons the Browns were so successful, right?
26:39
SPEAKER_01: When they didn't know, well, and and Paul Brown, that's why if if you wonder why, again, we're we're all too young to remember what most of us are too young to remember Paul Brown, but the reason he was so um he's so revered, and why he's always thought of as one of the greatest coaches of all time is because he just did these things.
27:02
SPEAKER_00: He invented the modern offense in football.
27:04
SPEAKER_00: He did.
27:05
SPEAKER_01: Even even the blocking schemes, the way that he blocked for the he had the alignment blocked for Otto Graham was completely different than the way that you blocked previously.
27:14
SPEAKER_01: He he had them kind of like you know how the tackles kind of um like you know how they kind of almost might make a U around the quarterback?
27:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
27:23
SPEAKER_01: That that was that was something that Paul Brown invented.
27:27
SPEAKER_00: You know, and and people didn't think of that before, like, hey, let's just stand over here and yeah, no, they didn't.
27:33
SPEAKER_01: And and so yeah, Paul Brown is really innovative.
27:35
SPEAKER_01: And I I think it was Otto Graham played in the league 10 years, and he was in like 10 championship games or something like that.
27:42
SPEAKER_00: They the Browns were in six straight championship games, and they actually won title 1950, 1954, 1955.
27:50
SPEAKER_00: So he was probably in a couple championship games maybe before that in the other league.
27:55
SPEAKER_00: In the old league, yeah, yeah, that's probably what it was.
27:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
27:57
SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, obviously, like we mentioned, Jim Brown, the one of the greatest running backs ever.
28:03
SPEAKER_00: Um, you mentioned Otto Graham.
28:04
SPEAKER_00: I think he's in the Hall of Fame, he's a Hall of Fame quarterback from the 50s.
28:08
SPEAKER_00: Um, Paul Brown, he's a legendary coach.
28:11
SPEAKER_00: Uh, just you know, he I think did he coach at Ohio State?
28:15
SPEAKER_00: I think he did coach at Ohio State somewhere in his career.
28:19
SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, just you remember Marion Motley, that was like that guy, like it was like they put a left tackle at running back, and he could run too.
28:28
SPEAKER_00: And another thing uh Paul Brown did was he uh he went out and recruited African American players, which in the 50s was not, you know, the NFL just didn't do it, I guess.
28:38
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
28:39
SPEAKER_00: So and he was the the Browns are not an American football league team, they're some other conference, they're the only team left from that other league.
28:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was it was like the all-American or something.
28:51
SPEAKER_01: Yes, it was the AASC.
28:53
SPEAKER_01: It was the All-American Football, I guess, conference is what the C stood for.
28:58
SPEAKER_00: Uh so they were yeah, they're not an American football league team, they're not a national football league team.
29:04
SPEAKER_00: They were just their own team.
29:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
29:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
29:08
SPEAKER_00: Um, so obviously, you know, we're gonna wrap this air up.
29:12
SPEAKER_00: Um the Browns' last championship was December 27, 1964.
29:16
SPEAKER_00: They beat the Colts and Johnny Unitis, who was the quarterback of that team, 27 to nothing.
29:21
SPEAKER_00: Um, the Browns dominated that era over the Steelers.
29:25
SPEAKER_00: They held an edge.
29:26
SPEAKER_00: They hold in the they held an edge at that point of 31-9.
29:31
SPEAKER_00: So in 1970, the Steelers have beaten the Browns nine times in 20 years.
29:39
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
29:39
SPEAKER_00: Nine times to channel my principal from Derrick Buller.
29:44
SPEAKER_00: But um so the Steel Curtain, yay, we get to talk about something a little better than that.
29:53
SPEAKER_00: Um, from 1970 to 1973, the teams kind of split the season series, each team winning at home.
30:00
SPEAKER_00: So the Steelers are starting to make some progress.
30:02
SPEAKER_00: They're not just losing all the time to the Browns.
30:05
SPEAKER_00: And of course, in 1972, the Immaculate Reception happens, and that totally changes the Steelers' franchise from losers to winners.
30:14
SPEAKER_00: 74, they finally win a um Super Bowl, and um, you know, that's at that point that was one more than the Browns had even appeared in.
30:23
SPEAKER_00: So um, in 1975, we've gone over this in the Cheap Sots episode.
30:28
SPEAKER_00: Um, Turkey Jones, uh, this is like the rivalry really starts to get nasty in the 70s, as most like I think the Clevelands and the Cincinnati and the Houston, you know, it really got rough there.
30:43
SPEAKER_00: And Oakland, too, but they weren't in our division, so we didn't play them as frequently.
30:49
SPEAKER_00: But the Turkey Jones incident where he he was tackling Terry Bradshaw and he didn't hear the whistle, and he threw Terry Bradshaw on his head and actually temp uh temporarily paralyzed him for like uh I think a couple days until his feeling came back.
31:04
SPEAKER_00: So that was in 1975.
31:06
SPEAKER_00: Also in 1975, I'm not sure if it's the same game, but uh Mean Joe Green got thrown out of a game for kicking uh offensive lineman of the Browns, Bob McKay in the groin.
31:17
SPEAKER_00: So mean Joe didn't put up with that crap.
31:20
SPEAKER_00: So um not to be outdone in 1978.
31:24
SPEAKER_00: Um Jack Lamber got thrown out for punching uh Brian Sype in a game.
31:29
SPEAKER_00: Could you imagine if somebody punched a quarterback at the day's NFL?
31:34
SPEAKER_00: And the best part is, you know, you figure uh Jack Lambert, what's he gonna say after the game?
31:38
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I'm sorry, I lost my head, I really hurt the team.
31:41
SPEAKER_00: Nope.
31:42
SPEAKER_00: He says to Howard Cousell in an interview that quarterbacks should wear a skirt because they're not allowed to get hit or punched, apparently.
31:50
SPEAKER_01: Another comment that would go over really well today, I'm sure.
31:54
SPEAKER_00: He could not play in the league today.
31:55
SPEAKER_00: Like Patrick Mahomes would last about 30 seconds with Jack Lambert.
32:00
SPEAKER_00: Like when the and him and Lamar Jackson love to do that little like dance, like where they're oh, am I gonna go out of bounds?
32:05
SPEAKER_00: Am I not?
32:05
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, you're not gonna go out of bounds, I'm gonna lay you out.
32:09
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, there's also that famous clip of Lambert.
32:12
SPEAKER_01: It's not Brian Slate, I don't know who the player is, but he's like he's on his kind of like on one knee shoving a uh with one hand a a Cleveland defender to the ground, yeah.
32:23
SPEAKER_01: And he wags his finger in his face, and he's like, that'll cool your rear end off.
32:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:29
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, there's like so much that goes on in the 70s, and it's all like just fights, and I mean the games really aren't that competitive because in so in 1979, the Steelers beat the Browns.
32:44
SPEAKER_00: The Browns are starting to like they I think they were kind of mediocre in the 70s, but they were never quite at the Steelers level, so they lost a lot, but it wasn't like they were terrible.
32:54
SPEAKER_00: And the reason they didn't make the playoffs is you gotta remember there were fewer playoff teams, and the Steelers were in their division, so they were kept out of the playoffs a lot by the Steelers.
33:06
SPEAKER_00: So in 79, the Browns actually they have um Brian Saipe is still playing, and uh he had a five touchdown performance, but it went for naught because he also threw three interceptions.
33:19
SPEAKER_00: Uh Mike Wagner um had two and Donnie Schell had one.
33:23
SPEAKER_00: Like I think I said in the previous podcast, Mike Wagner is probably one of the more underrated safeties that's played for the Steelers.
33:30
SPEAKER_00: And um, I think Franco, yes, Franco had two touchdowns and 153 rushing yards, and the Steelers score 51 points and beat the Browns 51 to 35.
33:42
SPEAKER_00: So um that was kind of like you could tell, like we talked about in 1980, the Browns finally beat the Steelers, and it that that game was kind of a like hint of because that was the very next season when the Browns finally beat the Steelers.
33:56
SPEAKER_00: That 79 game was kind of a hint of the 80 game.
34:00
SPEAKER_00: And um, so uh, you know, what was the Browns' record in Three River Stadium in that era?
34:06
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's an easy one to remember, they didn't win a game at all, ever.
34:11
SPEAKER_00: They would not win one for another six season.
34:15
SPEAKER_00: So um who dominated this era?
34:18
SPEAKER_00: It was the Steelers.
34:19
SPEAKER_00: And it's kind of the flip side of the 1950s, 1960s, where the Steelers, the Steelers lead that lead the series in the 1970s, 15 to 5.
34:30
SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of i I would call this the exact opposite, because this is like the Steelers' best teams, and the 50s were the Browns' best teams.
34:39
SPEAKER_00: So maybe we could have the 50s Browns play the 70s Steelers on Madden football someday.
34:45
SPEAKER_01: There you go.
34:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and that's interesting, Steve, what you said about how hard it was to make the playoffs.
34:50
SPEAKER_01: Uh for most of the 70s until 1978, it was a 14-game schedule.
34:56
SPEAKER_01: So you figure they're playing Pittsburgh two out of the 14 games.
35:00
SPEAKER_01: That's really hard.
35:02
SPEAKER_01: And that's worth a lot.
35:03
SPEAKER_01: That's worth a lot.
35:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:05
SPEAKER_01: And then and then you really if you didn't if you didn't win your division, which like you said was impossible when the Steelers were were the best team in the league, then to be the one wild card, you had one wild card.
35:18
SPEAKER_01: To be the one wild card, you had to literally have the best record in the AFC of teams who didn't win the division.
35:25
SPEAKER_00: But but now you already have either one or two losses in your division and conference.
35:30
SPEAKER_01: So exactly.
35:32
SPEAKER_01: And that factors in the tiebreaker.
35:33
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it was really hard for other teams to um other teams in the Steelers division.
35:40
SPEAKER_01: That's why the the Oilers were so impressive.
35:43
SPEAKER_01: Those late 70s Oilers teams were so impressive, because they had to, you know, squeeze into the playoffs that way.
35:50
SPEAKER_01: Then they always had to go on the road to play teams like San Diego, who were really good uh uh and try to win at their stadium.
35:58
SPEAKER_01: So that was that that those teams really, I mean, we've talked about that before how they probably should have been at least been in a Super Bowl, but they just again the Steelers were just blocking everybody.
36:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm sure the Patriots did that a lot too, like when they were on their run of like, you know, in the AFC Championship every game for like 10 years.
36:18
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, absolutely.
36:20
SPEAKER_01: Kansas City's doing it now.
36:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
36:24
SPEAKER_00: Um, so this leads us to the modern rivalry.
36:27
SPEAKER_00: So, like we had said, Cleveland moves to Baltimore, and um, you know, it it the the Cleveland Browns, the name and the team technically stay in Cleveland, and the Baltimore team is a expansion team.
36:46
SPEAKER_00: So that's according to the NFL propaganda, but it really is the Browns move to Baltimore, and they got an expansion team in ninety-nine.
36:56
SPEAKER_01: So Yeah, I don't think there's ever I'm trying to think if that's ever happened.
37:02
SPEAKER_01: I I I don't think anything like that's ever been explained.
37:04
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what else Cleveland could have expected except for, well, we're gonna keep the Browns and give Art Odell an expansion team now.
37:13
SPEAKER_00: Like, we're you know, could they have done that?
37:16
SPEAKER_00: I I don't know.
37:17
SPEAKER_01: Probably not legally because he owned the team.
37:19
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
37:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:21
SPEAKER_01: That was unless he would have agreed to that, which why would he have?
37:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:24
SPEAKER_01: Um they probably couldn't do that legally.
37:26
SPEAKER_01: So it was it was the next best thing that they could do was say that the the Baltimore 96, even though they had all the old Cleveland players, that was an expansion team.
37:36
SPEAKER_01: That that when Baltimore played their first game, their rec their all-time record was zero and zero.
37:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
37:43
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, that leads us to the modern rivalry.
37:46
SPEAKER_00: And in 99, the Cleveland Browns come back.
37:49
SPEAKER_00: And um I remember this game distinctly because they had like Drew Carey.
37:54
SPEAKER_00: Was this this was in Cleveland, wasn't it?
37:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was the first game, and Cleveland didn't have a team for three years, so a lot of excitement, obviously.
38:02
SPEAKER_01: New stadium, all that.
38:03
SPEAKER_00: And it's got to be really competitive, so competitive though, that the um Steelers win 43 to nothing.
38:09
SPEAKER_00: I think even Scott Shields had an interception, if I remember this game correct.
38:15
SPEAKER_01: And that was a bad Steelers team, 99.
38:17
SPEAKER_01: That was a really bad Steelers team.
38:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was it was pretty pathetic.
38:22
SPEAKER_00: But, you know, Cleveland gets their revenge on a game.
38:26
SPEAKER_00: They actually win a game in Hines Field that year.
38:29
SPEAKER_00: I call this the Tim Couch game, and uh, they win 16 to 15 over the Steelers.
38:34
SPEAKER_00: Like you said, that was a pretty bad Steelers team that year.
38:37
SPEAKER_01: So that was that was still three river stadium.
38:39
SPEAKER_01: I was I was at that time.
38:40
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that was 99, yeah, it was.
38:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was at that game too, and that was like the Steelers were actually five and three at the time.
38:47
SPEAKER_01: As bad as they were that year, they were they were like, okay, they pulled out some wins, like maybe they could string together like a run to make a wild card spot, and they collapsed in the final minutes of that game and they lost to Cleveland, and then they lost like eight, eight weeks in a row or something ridiculous, to submarine their whole season.
39:05
SPEAKER_01: And I I remember walking out of that game so angry.
39:08
SPEAKER_01: It was just a terrible loss.
39:10
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it was one of those losses that people wouldn't remember because it wasn't like you know the AFC championship game or one of those losses, but but I guess it's it pretty much ended their season, quite honestly.
39:20
SPEAKER_01: It did.
39:20
SPEAKER_01: It killed, and again, that team wasn't good.
39:22
SPEAKER_01: Like that team really didn't wasn't going anywhere.
39:25
SPEAKER_01: But it's like that just that's that that just um started this trend of like, okay, they're done, and and they just were finished after that.
39:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so um I'm going fast forward to 2002, so I skipped a couple years there.
39:42
SPEAKER_00: Um and this is of course the big and we went over this in the Tommy Gun episode.
39:47
SPEAKER_00: Wow, we're gonna send the way back machine to the really old podcast episodes.
39:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
39:52
SPEAKER_00: Um the Steelers had a big comeback win.
39:55
SPEAKER_00: So this is the new Browns, and I think I read that actually Couch had gotten hurt before that, so they had to start Kelly Holcomb, who wasn't bad.
40:05
SPEAKER_00: He wasn't a bad quarterback.
40:07
SPEAKER_00: And the Steelers secondary was really bad, so so they I mean they they have a big comeback, and uh, I think what were how much were they down?
40:18
SPEAKER_00: They're down by 17 or down by 17 yeah, at one point in the third quarter.
40:25
SPEAKER_00: And uh Tommy Maddox brings them all the way back, and they win in regulation on a Fu Mato Fala touchdown.
40:31
SPEAKER_00: Chris Fu Mato Fala.
40:33
SPEAKER_00: See, I can say stuff.
40:35
SPEAKER_00: And uh yeah, then uh you know, Butch Davis wouldn't keep blitzing.
40:39
SPEAKER_00: Uh Voge wanted to keep blitzing, Foge Fazio, the defensive coordinator for the Browns.
40:44
SPEAKER_00: He wanted to keep blitzing, uh Butch Davis wouldn't do it, and um Browns lost.
40:49
SPEAKER_00: The Browns be the Browns.
40:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that was that was an insane game.
40:55
SPEAKER_01: That the Stewart had no business winning.
40:56
SPEAKER_01: Their defense was so bad that year.
40:59
SPEAKER_01: And uh somehow they came back.
41:01
SPEAKER_01: It they also another thing that I'm sure people in Cleveland will remember more than people in Pittsburgh.
41:07
SPEAKER_01: Uh Cleveland had a chance to basically ice the game.
41:10
SPEAKER_01: They had the ball and the lead with like I don't know, three three minutes, two minutes left.
41:14
SPEAKER_00: Oh, is that the dropped ball?
41:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
41:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
41:16
SPEAKER_01: And and was that Dennis Northcutt?
41:18
SPEAKER_01: I want to say.
41:19
SPEAKER_00: I want to say that, yeah.
41:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, just right in his hands.
41:22
SPEAKER_01: Would have been a first down.
41:23
SPEAKER_01: They would have eaten up like a ton of clock after that, made the Steelers use all their timeouts, and he just it was right in his hands and he dropped it.
41:31
unknown: Yeah.
41:32
SPEAKER_00: So I, you know, we can kind of see which direction the Browns are going here in their reincarnation here.
41:40
SPEAKER_00: Um 2003, um, they actually win.
41:44
SPEAKER_00: They win 20 33 to 13.
41:47
SPEAKER_00: And uh can you believe that this is the only regular season win at Heinz Field for Cleveland?
41:55
SPEAKER_01: Ever?
41:56
SPEAKER_01: Even to this state?
41:57
SPEAKER_00: Uh as far as I know.
41:59
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
42:00
SPEAKER_01: That's crazy.
42:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
42:02
SPEAKER_00: Regular season.
42:03
SPEAKER_01: Regular season, yeah.
42:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we'll we'll get to that other yeah.
42:08
SPEAKER_00: So um do you remember that game at all?
42:11
SPEAKER_00: 33-30?
42:12
SPEAKER_00: No, probably not.
42:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, that was early in the season.
42:16
SPEAKER_01: That was that that was uh it was like a Sunday night.
42:18
SPEAKER_01: It was a night game.
42:19
SPEAKER_01: It was either Sunday night or Monday night, and and it was like one of those um it was like the 99 season where it's like, oof, this team doesn't look that good, but they're you know, they were like maybe two and two at the time, or something like that.
42:32
SPEAKER_01: And then it was again like 99 where where the whole season just kind of fell apart after that, and that 2003 team was really bad also.
42:39
SPEAKER_00: I think they still had Brent Alexander and like uh they had some other guy at safety that wasn't very good.
42:46
SPEAKER_00: I think I remember that season.
42:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it might have been like the very end of like the Lee Flowers era.
42:52
SPEAKER_01: It was it was the end of the era where uh the NFL the NFL kind of like fluctuates every couple of years between like we're a running league, we're a passing league, we're a running league.
43:03
SPEAKER_00: That was that was the running league year.
43:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and that was that was like that was the era, so the early 2000s, you had uh Kamal Lewis and Ricky Williams and Thompson was really good.
43:16
SPEAKER_00: I remember Thomson was really good that I think I went, you gave me your tickets that season, if I remember correctly.
43:22
SPEAKER_00: And I went to a really cold game against San Diego, and they had Flutie and Breeze as quarterback, and they had Thomason, and Thomason was just unbelievable.
43:31
SPEAKER_00: He he had it he put on a hat.
43:33
SPEAKER_00: It reminded me of the Curtis Smartin at Pitt days.
43:36
SPEAKER_00: Like you have this really great running back on a team that really isn't that good, and they just carry the team.
43:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
43:41
SPEAKER_01: So you you had a lot of dominant NFL running backs back then, but just like in any other era, you also had you know passing offenses.
43:49
SPEAKER_01: You had like Kurt Warner back then, you had Peyton Manning just starting to get in his own.
43:54
SPEAKER_01: And and teams figured out so the Steelers were really good against the run.
43:58
SPEAKER_01: That's that 2001 run.
44:00
SPEAKER_01: run that they made to the AFC Championship game, they had this great defense that could stop all these powerful running backs.
44:06
SPEAKER_01: And then in 2002 and 2003, to your point about the secondary, people figured out like, wait a minute, why are we trying to run the ball?
44:12
SPEAKER_01: Let's try to pass the ball.
44:14
SPEAKER_01: And the Steelers, the Steelers defense was just terrible against the pass.
44:18
SPEAKER_01: And then and then they they had to reconfigure with guys like Troy Palomalu and Chris Hope and Ike Taylor because the the the defense that they had built was you know Lee Flowers was a really good safety when it came to plugging a hole.
44:31
SPEAKER_01: He wasn't so good at coverage.
44:33
SPEAKER_01: So that was that was just the difference I think in those years.
44:38
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
44:38
SPEAKER_00: So um 2005 the Steelers have turned it around they're like super good and um maybe it's 2004.
44:48
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
44:49
SPEAKER_00: There was a 41 to nothing blowout game Tim and uh James Harrison slammed the Cleveland fan to the ground and that was that was uh that was the highlight of that game.
45:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah that was um I want to say it was like Christmas Eve or Christmas day yeah of of 2005 and the Steelers the Steelers were in that mode still of they had to win every game to make the playoffs.
45:10
SPEAKER_01: So it wasn't it wasn't just like a a coast kind of a game but yeah they destroyed them Willie Parker also had like an 80 yard touchdown run in that game yeah right off the bat it was like no you don't even have another chance yeah yeah yeah yeah and that fan that ran on the field I mean that was that got replayed forever because nobody really knew who James Harrison was at that point.
45:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah you know he was he was uh and and he just yeah the the security's chasing the guy around James Harrison just takes him and slams him to the ground funny funny story uh that guy was sentenced to a five year probation and ban from Brown's games um but I did read a a a story somewhere that he has uh entered rehab and turned his life around so um good for him yeah yeah James Harrison uh helping people out with their addiction issues you got a problem with drugs have them slam you on the ground you'll slam it right out of you yeah yeah well that's good because I'm not sure being banned from going to Browns games is any kind of a punishment honestly so maybe that's why he was drinking because he kept going to Browns yeah right right that that was the addiction he had to get off of actually was I've got to stop rooting for this team and thank god James Harrison slammed some sense into me so so next up uh there's a lot of losing by Cleveland here Cleveland really Cleveland sucks cleveland all right so 2007 uh the Steelers win 34 to seven you say who cares about a regular season blowout game it's because the Steelers finally take the lead in the overall season 56 wins to 55.
46:45
SPEAKER_00: It took them till 2007 all those years of dominance to finally erase the lead that Cleveland had built from the 50s um 2018 uh I bet you were you were not at this game because this game was in Cleveland but um do you remember the only tie in series history Tim or yeah that was on opening day wasn't it I think Chris Boswell missed the chip shot field goal and then the Steelers blocked the field goal at the end to preserve the tie I guess yeah and I think the weather was cruddy I think it was raining and not not nice.
47:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah that was that was just a that was another season that kind of went south a little bit and um that was the first game and you're just like oh boy like I said like about 89 it's like okay that's what kind of season this is going to be apparently it was just funny that like our record in week two was oh oh and one well we hadn't lost him we hadn't we were undefeated so um in 2019 I bet Tim knows what I'm gonna talk about in 2019 it's a little incident that happened in Cleveland so Cleveland leads 21 to seven with a minute to go and Mason Rudolph throws a shut up shovel pass to some no name running back who gets a couple yards but after the play Miles Garrett kind of like takes a I mean it wasn't a cheap shot but it definitely was after the whistle and it was third and twenty-nine it's like the game I think the game was twenty the game's 21 to seven so it's basically over and he kind of like takes him and slams him into the turf and at that point Mason Rudolph gets ticked off and starts fighting with Miles Garrett trying to rip his helmet off and at that point Garrett gets ticked off and actually rips Mason Rudolph's helmet off and takes it and bashes Rudolph over the head with his own helmet and at that point it becomes a hole on Donnybrook as the British people would say uh what's his name uh Marquise Pouncey gets in the act punching Miles Garrett in the head but Miles Garrett is still wearing his helmet so it's kind of ineffective um I forget uh Oaken Joby uh the current stealer actually saw all this goes down so he comes to the aid of Miles Garrett and pushes Mason Rudolph who then calls him a um female dog um so it's a full-on fight and this was on that I think this was on national TV too and um yeah the announcers are clutching their pearls and um the fallout was that um uh Marquise Pouncey uh I think uh I think Garrett only got fined forty five thousand dollars but he was suspended six games for this Pouncey and Oka Joby got Pouncey got two games Oka Joby got one and uh I think Rudolph got fined about forty or fifty thousand dollars too and uh it's just a big fight and it was embarrassing.
49:51
SPEAKER_00: The game was over and people were acting like idiots and uh later Miles Garrett claimed that um Mason Rudolph had used a racial slur.
50:02
SPEAKER_00: To his defense Mike Toddlin comes to the fence of Mason Rudolph saying that they've investigated and the NFL's investigated and that none of it was picked up on the microphones and then like somebody said oh the microphones were turned off why would the microphones be turned off at that point in the game it's like just becomes a big like weird like controversy that it could only happen now because like it just seems like this is what like the world has come to it's like you see something on TV it probably didn't happen.
50:31
SPEAKER_00: If it did happen it would have been picked up by the mics but now people are making up all kinds of reasons why it didn't um my personal opinion is it just was a fight that got out of hand it was just like a play like they were hitting and they were fighting and if it just would have been a pushing and shoving and Mason Rudolph's helmet wouldn't have come off nobody gets suspended.
50:51
SPEAKER_00: They probably get some minor fines and we don't even remember we remembered oh the Steelers lost 21 to seven that's all we remember about this.
50:59
SPEAKER_00: But because of the helmet coming off and and uh Garrett swinging it at Rudolph I I think that kind of took it to a whole nother level and with the whole concussion thing and you know the NFL being cognizant of concussions and yeah it just just sprout out of control and I still think this ruined Mason Rudolph's career in Pittsburgh and in you know maybe not in the NFL but at least here I think just this incident like kind of like spoiled you know I don't know why he stayed here another what was this 2019 to say another five years after that he just you know he would have been almost better.
51:36
SPEAKER_00: I guess he couldn't leave he was still on a rookie contract but what say you Tim do you think this game ruined Mason Rudolph's career or he did that on his own I don't know.
51:46
SPEAKER_01: I I don't think it helped I mean it he didn't really get the start after this did he I mean yeah because it was the whole Doc Hodges and him were kind of battling for time and uh yeah it it it definitely didn't help his career at all.
52:00
SPEAKER_01: But like you said he also had other chances to to prove he could play and then he really didn't until the very very end of the well that Lyons game in the rain and that wasn't even his fault because Johnson fumbled a ball that would have been a touchdown.
52:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
52:16
SPEAKER_00: I I think that really put the nail in the coffin for his career.
52:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah another another tie game uh yeah but yeah you know the the so so it wasn't good for my for Rudolph for Miles Garrett I I lost so I lost any respect uh for Miles Garrett that I had after that because first of all you know swinging a helmet at a guy is pretty bad I mean that's that's just I get the heat of the moment I get being upset but like that's very dangerous.
52:44
SPEAKER_00: He could have he could have well he hit him in the head too he hit him square in the head that could have been really bad.
52:50
SPEAKER_01: Imagine if Mason Rudolph goes down unconsciously
52:53
SPEAKER_00: Like what's like yeah.
52:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
52:55
SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean that that could have been like literally police would have come in and and had to haul him away but but okay I'll give him even that like he did the moment he could have come out after that game been a real stand-up guy been like look that's not who I am I I lost my head um I'm I just so apologize blah blah blah and instead like then it turns into like uh well he called me the the the N-word which was refuted by everybody that was around there refuted by the audio that they had refuted by Tomlin refute like literally nobody even the Cleveland players did say they hurt yeah right so that I mean that that you know and I I hate stuff like that because there's so much real racism in the world you know and then what that does is it sends a message like oh yeah here we go another person you know that remember that actor that did that Jussie uh smollette yeah remember so it's like it's stuff like that it just it it cheapens it cheapens when stuff like that really does happen and then people always are suspect and for good cause because people you know cry wolf and and I thought that was just and he did that when he had his hearing with the NFL in an attempt to not get as as hefty of a suspension.
54:11
SPEAKER_01: It's like at that point just just own up to what you did and and accept the punishment for it and I think I would have had a lot more respect for him.
54:20
SPEAKER_01: So he's I I I don't like Miles Garrett.
54:23
SPEAKER_00: I mean he's a really good player I won't take that away but it's led to this whole like TJ Watt Miles Garrett like you know that pro football focus like I think they do that on purpose they rate him ahead of TJ Watt just to get you know the conversation going because I mean it's been pretty obvious for a couple years that TJ Watt's better than him and been better than him.
54:45
SPEAKER_01: Now especially when they go head to head it's like every time they've gone head to head like the the the game in 2023 at Pittsburgh you know TJ Watt uh um scores the game winning touchdown in the in the fourth quarter you know but it's like well miles garrett's and miles garrett had like one quarterback pressure or something it it so then they still like w rank rank him ahead of him it's like oh he's still better that's just done that's just trolling that's all that is that well it is and and it's it it like goes back to that thing we've talked about on the show a million times about like Larry Fitzgerald and Jason White.
55:20
SPEAKER_01: It's just when you give when you make a subjective when something's subjective and you give people in the media the opportunity to vote on it whether it's an award or a rating or a or a list a rankings list it it's it's never going to be just completely factual.
55:38
SPEAKER_01: It's going to be influenced by all kinds of biases.
55:41
SPEAKER_00: Well I mean everything even stats you know like they say lies damn lies to statistics I mean you can make a stat say anything you want right so right um going to 2020 um I think the Steelers had won both games because they were undefeated weren't they?
55:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah that was that was COVID year wasn't it?
56:00
SPEAKER_01: Well they won the first game the second game was like the last game of the season where where they played the backups yeah and they lost and they lost but that was like how Cleveland made the playoffs so they actually played each other two weeks in a row at Hinesfield and you would have thought like that was such a perfect scenario because it's like well the COVID that the Kevin Stevansky had COVID.
56:23
SPEAKER_00: Right and um you know like it was just like there's no reason you should lose this game and of course on the first play of the game bouncy snout snaps it over Rothesberger's head they score like 24 points in 28 points in the first quarter.
56:41
SPEAKER_00: I think that's the most in playoff history.
56:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah and it it felt like Pitt Georgia Tech a few years ago where Pitt just kept fumbling and building a bigger and bigger hole.
56:51
SPEAKER_00: The Steelers actually you know scored 37 points so if they could have stopped Cleveland at all they might have had a chance to win this but um hey you know it's uh it it's it's that not one hurts.
57:04
SPEAKER_00: Like for as much as I love that 94 game I think this one hurts it is you know is bad but uh what are you gonna do?
57:13
SPEAKER_01: It it did.
57:14
SPEAKER_01: It it look and again they had played them the week before Cleveland had everything to play for the Steelers didn't and they almost beat them with yeah Mason Rudolph I think it's almost like you get to scout them you're like okay let's just sit back and scout them and and now you know and we have all our guys rested.
57:32
SPEAKER_01: They had they had to play last week and and then like you said their coach isn't even there on the field.
57:39
SPEAKER_01: They had everything going in their favor and they just I mean they could not have fallen apart harder.
57:45
SPEAKER_00: Well it seems to become a theme of Mike Tomlin's teams late in the season they they fall apart.
57:52
SPEAKER_00: 2024 a game you just alluded to um we beat Cleveland on a sack fumble by TJ Watt he picked it up and ran the end zone that was the uh difference in the game Steelers 26 Browns 22.
58:04
SPEAKER_00: And I think it from 2020 like 2019 to 2020 like now it feels more like the old rivalry to me.
58:13
SPEAKER_00: It's starting now I mean that's Cleveland's fault for hiring Hugh Jackson you know and sucking for so many years.
58:21
SPEAKER_00: But um I I would say that it started to feel more like a rivalry later here.
58:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah well you can't have a rivalry when one team stinks yeah you just can't so well here you go more more you know kudos for Cleveland later in the year the Steelers lose 13 to 10 in Cleveland and uh the footnote to that game is that it ends Matt Canada's career as an NFL coach.
58:45
SPEAKER_00: So um he'll probably never be back.
58:47
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if he'll ever coach again anywhere.
58:50
SPEAKER_00: I mean maybe college somewhere but yeah um so the record for this era which I call the modern era is 217 and one and uh total domination by the Steelers over the Browns um some final fun facts about the rivalry um this is the most played rivalry in the AFC Tim did you know that I did not yeah and the all-time series is now the Steelers lead 81 to 63 and of course that one tie is still hanging out there for fun um the Steelers are now can you bl guess since 1970 to 2024 how many games has the Cleveland Browns won in Pittsburgh that is 50 years right 50 years total number games six oh you are so close seven okay you forgot the playoff one maybe okay if you would have told a Steeler fan in 1970 the Browns are only going to win seven more times in the next 50 years I think anybody would have taken that yeah I guess it depends on when the wins are but still seven seven out of fifty what's that fifty four seasons of course you know the Steelers you know they lead the playoff matchup two games to one because Marquise Pouncey can't snap a ball and Mike Tomlin can't coach the playoffs apparently not that you're bitter about that loss at all yeah yeah so our conclusion um hey people vote on both sides as uh what's her name said I've seen it from both sides now uh uh Chuck Knoll he played for the Browns but we didn't hold that against him as he led us to four Super Bowls he actually played for Paul Brown um Ben Rothelsberger he is from Finlay Ohio he wanted to play for the Browns the Browns could have drafted him Tim but they picked up uh Kellen Winslow Jr.
1:00:55
SPEAKER_00: instead what do you think do you think you know we did a lot of what if episodes what if the Browns draft Ben Rothsberger what does the history look history books look like?
1:01:06
SPEAKER_00: Oh man doesn't is it Cleveland Browns with three Super Bowls or at least two no because they still be Cleveland I I think I think they're better than they were I think I think he has like a a Bernie Kosar type career where he you know the Browns are competitive but they don't win anything that would that would be my what if now what happens to the Steelers oof I don't even want to think about that um Larry Okajobi he got he played played for the Browns and the Steelers of course involved in the Mason Rudolph Miles Garrett incident um Bill Cower another guy who coached and played in Cleveland thanks Cleveland yeah you've given us two Super Bowl winning coaches um so who's to blame for the death of the rivalry Tim um we kind of went over this a little bit uh Art Model are we gonna blame Art Model?
1:02:02
SPEAKER_01: He's he's he's a fun guy to blame right yeah I mean you could also blame the the multiple owners of the new Browns for mismanaging the team.
1:02:11
SPEAKER_00: That's why I said the that's a nice next point was the Browns were having three owners over the last 20 years.
1:02:18
SPEAKER_00: Is that the most in the National Football League?
1:02:20
SPEAKER_00: I didn't look that I couldn't find figure that one out but that has to be one of the the the the owners just don't change that much.
1:02:28
SPEAKER_00: Like once you own an FL team you normally keep it for at least twenty years but um like I said for generally sucking and hiring Hugh Jackson that has to be the worst hire in NFL history and uh like uh Juju Smith Schuster said or not juju it was the other guy Chase Claypool said Browns be Browns Browns be bounds.
1:02:53
SPEAKER_00: What do you think of the rivalry in comparison to other Pittsburgh sports rivalries?
1:02:57
SPEAKER_00: Uh Pitpen State well there's another rivalry that's dead so uh I don't know was it probably wasn't as I think it was bigger back in the day than Pitpen State.
1:03:13
SPEAKER_01: Well that's a good comparison because I think both of those rivalries are ones that older people like us or people even that are older than us appreciate more than any other older than us Tim?
1:03:25
SPEAKER_01: Wow that's hard to believe just a few yeah but but uh you know that's that's a rivalry that I think an older generation appreciates more than a younger generation because if you're a younger generation Steel or Browns viewer one of I mean it's just a team that the Steelers trounced every year.
1:03:43
SPEAKER_01: What what you know that's like um I don't know what a what a good college comparison but it's like our Alabama and Vanderbilt rivals.
1:03:51
SPEAKER_01: It's like no you know the the two Alabama fans are like they don't think anything of that game because it doesn't mat it's not consequential it's never been consequential and and same with Steelers Browns with like you said a few exceptions in in recent years where it's starting to get back to maybe what it was.
1:04:10
SPEAKER_01: But yeah that's that's it's so I guess it's kind of sad because just like Pitpen said it's kind of sad because it used to be so fierce and so intense and it really isn't anymore.
1:04:21
SPEAKER_00: I tried to come up with the Pirates rivalry but outside of the Reds or Bets or Braves at times I couldn't really come out with the Pirates because they're another case of they're like the Cleveland Browns they're not good enough to really generate any rivalries with anybody.
1:04:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah the the I would say the closest thing the Pirates had to any kind of rivalry in the last 30 years was the Cardinals because they battled each other for the division a couple of years and because they had some they had there were some bad feelings there when Tony LaBrusso was there, remember all that so there's a little bit of a what you know like seeds of a rivalry but you're right nothing nothing much.
1:04:57
SPEAKER_00: And I would say the closest comparison to Cleveland Pittsburgh and probably the biggest rivalry outside of the other one that we'll talk about shortly is uh Penguins Flyers.
1:05:08
SPEAKER_00: I would uh and that and that that definitely that's had consequential games that's had recent games closing Sydney Crosby getting his teeth knocked out us losing the playoffs to freaking Yamer Yager I mean you know it that that now that's a rivalry for sure in a in a heated one um has the is the rivalry back I I don't know I I think it's a little bit back is it's not quite the Cincinnati levels even I don't think but um has it has it gone to Baltimore yeah yeah that's what happened was the the the ball the rivalry really went to Baltimore and has actually become more of a respected rivalry with Baltimore than it ever was with Cleveland.
1:05:49
SPEAKER_01: Cleveland's like yep it's it's the Ravens now.
1:05:53
SPEAKER_01: It's Steelers Ravens it's not Steelers Browns.
1:05:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah so if we were doing Pittsburgh sports rivalry hierarchies what would we do?
1:06:00
SPEAKER_01: Pittsburgh Baltimore Penguins Flyers Pit Duke no I don't know Ducane and whoever they play Robert Morris whoever they play I don't know yeah yeah and then and then like a a second tier would be like Steelers Bengals Penguins Capitals yeah and then and then Browns would be like whatever the tier is below that.
1:06:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah well uh I think that wraps it up um I don't feel any rivalry with Tim right now because you know we're on the same podcast right we need you know what that's what we need Steve we need a rival podcast we could talk some trash on them yeah those people in the Cleveland their Baltimore podcast really stink.
1:06:43
SPEAKER_01: Is anybody doing Baltimore sports memories?
1:06:46
SPEAKER_01: We we need to get together with them and have a rivalry.
1:06:49
SPEAKER_00: We talk about how your team moved the Indianapolis well as usual thanks for tuning in uh please uh keep uh tuning in and uh give us uh comments or recommend us to a friend follow us on Facebook all that good stuff uh we thank you so much word of mouth all the words it's all been great it's uh we did so many good followers over the last year or so.
1:07:13
SPEAKER_00: So um just want to thank you for listening and uh we'll catch you next time and God bless.
1:07:29
SPEAKER_02: Fucks Fucks Fox still sucks.