Latest / Woodlands Church Academy's Podcast / Discipleship training for midweek leaders- Tim Dobson, Jane Reeves, Brad Askew

Transcript

Discipleship training for midweek leaders- Tim Dobson, Jane Reeves, Brad Askew · Woodlands Church Academy's Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: This evening we're going to particularly look at um one of those.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_03: We're going to look at the discipleship.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um we're going to look at discipleship again, partly because um, like Dave says, it's it's probably something at the moment that we're kind of we're quite aware of.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_03: Does effect discipleship happen?
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um and it's it's a challenge with a larger church uh where people can uh uh arrive here at modern central and uh can be lost in a crowd.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_03: They can come and they can uh consume kind of what's on offer without necessarily 100% engaging with it and having the follow-through impact that a discipleship is.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_03: So, like we say, they were saying there's a crowd that would come and listen to Jesus, not the whole crowd, though, were disciples.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_03: And um, and Jesus' great commission is not just to go and have large churches that people can attend, actually, the great commission is therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I've commanded you.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, that that is the commission that if we follow Jesus, that He's uh given us to do.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and it's really however good we can make uh kind of our Sunday uh services, uh, in effect they can only do a limited amount of stuff.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, discipleship does need to happen with other people, um, which is which is why we're thinking around the whole topic with with your small group.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_03: Now, again, when when you're asked to be a home group leader, I'm not quite sure if you kind of registered that discipleship was one of the things that you maybe were trying to kind of provoke or ensure happened.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe you thought, yeah, hosting, socials, bible study prayer, that's probably something to add in your mind.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_03: But actually, discipleship is a really important part because that's what what Jesus said.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_03: He said, make disciples.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_03: He didn't say go and run Bible studies, or glass prayer times.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_03: Kind of he said go and make disciples.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_03: So, what's that look like?
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_03: And I suppose for me, there's um there's a real kind of Jesus as savour, Jesus as Lord.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm not sure if you've ever considered how people interact with Jesus, but I think sometimes, and and in some ways, uh, the Alpha Course that I used to help run, that I'm very committed to, actually probably does Jesus as Saviour really well.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_03: Here's some things in your life, you're missing a purpose.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_03: Or do you wonder if there's a God?
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_03: And uh God can be your heavenly father, he can forgive you, take away your shame and your guilt, and there's kind of he that he can guide you and answer your prayers, and and uh he can fill you with the Holy Spirit, and and there's all the kind of things that you can get uh from Jesus because he's the Savior, he's rescuing you from this life and he's bringing you to this new life.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, what Arthur's not as good at is saying Jesus as Lord.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, what does it mean for Jesus to be uh to be your Lord?
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um uh Paul says that if we declare with our mouths Jesus is Lord and believe in our hearts that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I think there's a real kind of challenge there, and and in some ways, uh Lord the Lordship of Jesus is crucial to discipleship.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_03: Because if you just think I'm joining a club to get the benefits of being part of a club, you you miss what it's all about.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_03: It is about following Jesus, it's about bringing your life, your priorities, your troubles, your dreams.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, it's bringing it under the lordship of Jesus, being his apprentice, being his disciple, actually following what he says, somehow submitting my fleshly human kind of things to his lordship to find his power and his hope and his transformation.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and and that's the kind of the deal.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_03: So when we talk about discipleship, predominantly it's about bringing people unto the lordship of Jesus.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um now I'm not sure if you if you um have come across this kind of there's there's two models of of discipleship.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_03: There's a close set and the point set model.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_03: Have you come across these?
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_03: So a close set model is um that uh there's people who are not Christians and there are people who are Christians.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_03: There are people who are out and there are people who are in.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um and and the people who are are in, um uh the the deal is we want to get people who are out to get them to be in.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_03: And the way they come from out to in is is they they pray with the prayer.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and and then they're in.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_03: And so what discipleship means is that now that they've come from here into into here, they're now part of this new thing called church.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and actually, we're gonna teach you how we do things in here.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_03: We're gonna teach you how to go to church, how to you are, how to pray, and and uh and we teach you the behaviors and and the habits of what it means to be part of the set, a Christian.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um, now I think that's quite tricky because people come in because they want Jesus as savor, and suddenly you're challenging them about how they're living their lives, how they're forgiving people who hurt them and praying for those who persecute you, and you're talking about how do you see money and and hang on a minute, I just thought I'm gonna come into this to kind of and you're you're now telling me there's there's rules here that I or there's a way of living that you're trying to squeeze me into.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um but again, I think there's a there's flaws with that model, and I'm not quite sure it's a biblical model, because the the second model is point set, and the point set is this that um Jesus is it.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, there's something about Jesus, and and life should um should point to Jesus.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, we should be, all of us should be moving towards Jesus.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_03: Uh discipleship is not about how we moderate our behavior, how we do certain things or we don't do certain things.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, discipleship is about how do we apprentice to Jesus, how do we come under his lordship, how do we come towards him?
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_03: And actually, that I mean that that's the reality for all of us.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_03: How are we moving towards Jesus?
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_03: If you're moving towards Jesus, that is discipleship.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I think discipleship even starts for people who are who are not yet Christians.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_03: In some ways, discipleship is not in even in sharing your faith, it's not just here's the benefits of joining the Christian club, why don't you join?
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_03: It's here's a person, his name is Jesus.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, even kind of, and each time you may be here's a person who's not not yet Christian, you you talk to them about Jesus, they maybe they they come along to church and they hear worship songs and and it's about about Jesus, and and maybe then they they come along to a carol service and they and hear someone speaking and talking about who Jesus is, and and what happens is is bit by bit every little encounter they have, every prayer that's answered, at some point they give their life to the Jesus that you've been talking about.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_03: And actually, what it is is it's a journey to towards Jesus, towards him.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_03: So discipleship is teaching people to obey everything Jesus has commanded, it's pulling them towards Jesus.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_03: So so, and even when you you are a Christian, I mean the choice the choice is you can be even as a Christian that you're going uh towards Jesus, or actually you're wandering away from Jesus.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_03: You could at some point be saved and still not be yielding to the lordship of Jesus.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_03: Discipleship is a constant, lifelong apprenticeship to the master, to Jesus.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um, that's I mean, Dallas Willard, I love um some of his writings that when he talks about discipleship, and he he does say that a disciple in our language is an apprentice.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_03: If you want to learn a skill to be a carpenter or to be a plumber or to be an electrician, uh, to be a nurse, actually, what you do is you go and you watch someone else do the job and you learn from them.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_03: You ask questions and you kind of see how they they fix this thing here or they make that thing there, or how they engage with these kind of people here, and and and what you do is you apprentice, and and that's what discipleship is.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_03: I'm with Jesus to learn from Jesus how to be like Jesus.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_03: And now, in your small group, are you anticipating that the people who are part of your group actually you're helping them to be a disciple of Jesus?
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_03: You're helping them to be with Jesus, not just in the times we're here on Sunday or on a Thursday or a Tuesday, but actually in the whole of their lives, they realize they're with Jesus.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, are you helping them to learn from Jesus?
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_03: Not to learn the Christian code or the Christian kind of ethics, but actually learn from Jesus, and are you helping them to discover how they uh can become like Jesus?
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um I think for me, discipleship is not about trying to impose impersonal truth on an unwilling audience, it's about how to help friends be who they were designed to become.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, every person in part of your small group, God has dreams and longings and hopes of who they can become, who God always dreamt they could be before they were born.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_03: And actually, in this world of brokenness and sadness and poor choices and things, actually they they lose the sense of who they are becoming in Jesus, and and they just defer to uh I do me and you do you, and they defer to this just this inner life that is the ultimate truth.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_03: And say, Well, actually, no, how can I bring your life under the bordership of Jesus?
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_03: Of where it is that we're helping you to become the very person you're designed to be, which you don't find by going deeper in here, you go by coming to the person of Jesus.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_03: When you come to the person of Jesus, you find out what he's saying and and how he's living.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_03: So, uh for me, that's what uh discipleship is.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_03: It's um being an apprentice of Jesus, it's taking our lives and saying he can be the captain, the master, the Lord.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I wonder whether within small group life you think that's part of the deal.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um, because probably like Dave says, actually, it probably is what we're hoping you're going to be doing.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_03: And and and and we love it when there's social times, we love it when there is a Bible study or a prayer time, or kind of when you do some mission stuff together.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_03: But the big picture is Jesus says, go and make disciples of all nations.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um when you look at your group, um, I think there's different kinds of stages of spiritual maturity that of moving towards Jesus, what does it look like?
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_03: And in some ways, if you're uh nurturing uh your your group, it may be that some of the people in the different uh in the group are at different stages.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_03: So obviously, there's a kind of the baby stage of being a Christian.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, you're you're quite dependent.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_03: A baby needs to be fed by its parents.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, there might be a discipleship phase where you need to help that person grapple with what's it mean to be following Jesus?
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_03: What's it mean to be open to his Holy Spirit?
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_03: What's it mean to listen to his word?
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_03: What's it mean to put into practice what you hear or what you read in the Bible?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_03: And and and and they'll just need some kind of some food reading and some help.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, a toddler is is training.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_03: It's okay.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_03: Here's how you can follow Jesus for yourself.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_03: Here's some things that can really help you to feed yourself, to learn how to walk, learn how to dress yourself, learn how to actually the the infant stage is all about training and equipping uh them well for life.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_03: Uh the adolescence is uh kind of looking for identity, discovering gifts and uh where I belong and my identity.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_03: And again, for some people, they're at that phase in the life.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_03: They're just kind of thinking, well, yeah, who am I?
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_03: Why has God made me like this?
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_03: And what's my personality, my skills, and where do I fit?
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_03: And how can I use my space in the workplace or in with a charity or in community or family?
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_03: Kind of where where do I where do I fit?
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then others uh adults where interdependence able to discover uh for yourself and to help other people discover and actually maybe then become kind of a parent figure to help other people, and it's almost to think okay, how do we help disciple people to uh spiritual uh maturity?
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um I think when we look at uh discipleship, um discipleship is about the whole person, it's about the whole person coming under the Lordship of Jesus.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_03: It's about so in your small group, are there times where um the mind is challenged?
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_03: What do you think?
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_03: So, how how do you think?
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_03: Are you dominated by perceptions and and values and thought processes that are the world's thought processes?
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_03: Or actually are you being transformed by the reviewing of your mind?
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_03: Kind of how how how is your thought life and your thinking being challenged?
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_03: How's your will?
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, your your stubbornness, your selfishness, your jealousy, your pride, kind of how how are those kind of bits of you kind of being provoked and challenged?
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_03: And and and how do we help one another and spur one another on to bring our kind of our choices are under um the Lordship of Jesus?
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_03: How are our emotions?
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_03: How are we handling the way that we feel?
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_03: I can feel like this, I feel like that, and and sometimes feelings can dominate the way that we even perceive God and perceive our faith, and kind of um if we're feeling a little bit down or it's all going wrong, or we're feeling elated, everything's going right.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_03: And actually, how do you disciple people to understand how their emotions kind of work?
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um uh so calling people to follow Jesus is part of the deal for small groups.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um now it kind of how what does that look like and and how how brave do you feel about calling that out to people?
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_03: Because actually there is a choice to be made, uh, and it is about dying to self, isn't it?
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_03: So so that there is there is a cost.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, Jesus says there's a cost of discipleship.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um uh there's a cost, uh so Luke 23 here.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_03: If anyone comes to me and does not uh hate father and mother, wife and child, children, brother and sisters, yes, even their own lives, such a person cannot be my disciple, and whoever does not does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, that's fairly hard core, isn't it?
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um Mark says something similar whoever wants to be my disciple must numbers take up their cross, follow me.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_03: For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, whoever loses their life for me and for the King Gospel will save it.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um uh yeah, 2 Timothy 3.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, everyone who wants to live a god of life in Christ will be persecuted.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um there's others in the in the um on your notes there.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_03: Uh actually, there's a cost of discipleship.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um but for but for me there's there's a cost of non-discipleship is higher.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, you might think when Jesus says that's the cost of discipleship, actually the cost of non-discipleship is higher.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_03: Because if you see if you seek to to keep your life, to gain your life, to rule your own life, Jesus says actually you will lose it.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_03: So there may be a cost in coming into the lordship of Jesus, but actually there's an even greater cost of not coming into the lordship of Jesus.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_03: So in your leadership of your group, where there's a cost, where there's a challenge, where again, how do you help people without being judgmental?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, again, that's just a tricky thing to gauge sometimes, isn't it?
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_03: Of how to bring a challenge to somebody to bring their life under the lordship of Jesus without appearing to be, well, what right have you got to say that to me?
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_03: Because that's your truth, and this is my truth, and and and discipleship is about bringing people under the that under the lordship of Jesus.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um, before we have a little chance to discuss, um uh I suppose how do you tell if people are moving towards Jesus?
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and uh Dave uh a few years ago put together these uh 15 little discipleship steps, and again, it just may be kind of worthwhile having a look at those sometimes and thinking, okay, are the people that do a little inventory of your group kind of within within our group kind of um yeah, is the Lordship of Jesus not just my Saviour, he should be my Lord.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_03: Uh take a step of giving Jesus permission to be Lord in every area of your life.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_03: Baptism, Holy Spirit, mentoring, evangelism, ministry, forgiveness, uh, spiritual disciplines, giving, Holy Spirit ministry, care for the poor, care for the planet, sexuality, work, uh, fellowship.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, there's there's areas there that to say, how are those areas coming under the Lordship of Jesus?
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_03: Are there steps that people within your group maybe need to take?
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_03: Are there steps that you can take together uh to say actually maybe this is a challenge for all of us?
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_03: How are we making Jesus the centre of our life and moving forward?
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think about this thing that I've doing quite a lot of work with people in recovery and the 12-step in the process of recovery.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: I was talking about step three.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the steps that people are making in a group.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: And not everyone's making the same step at the same time.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but they're like steps of taking a rumor inventory on the level and take steps of restitution.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: Find a sponsor and a mentor.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that they're all out there, you know, people know what the steps are, they're not all ready to take a step.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I think sometimes in a small group, you might find someone who is ready to take a step that not everyone else is, but is out there that they actually, hmm, if I'm a guy's I need to find a mentor like that.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe the person in the group is doing that, or whatever it's very.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think it'd be great to have someone who has to set out there in uh in the email.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_03: Any questions or or comments from uh anyone else?
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: You might have not been ready by that.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: But probably at some point.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, I I think sometimes yeah, to print those out and uh and hand them out to people to say, where where do you think you are on some of these things?
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_03: Because it we're yeah, we're we're not just a little club here, we're not just a social, we're not just here to uh kind of appropriate other.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_03: Actually it is about uh about Jesus.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_03: Any other thoughts or comments or questions?
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_04: Sometimes in in groups where they're being quite sort of settled in the group for quite a while.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, they're comfortable and uh we want to sort of comfortable and it's that it's that challenge of sometimes we need to look at our small people that they've been together for a while and having rid of that sort of um element of provocation, it's the wrong word.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, I don't think I think sometimes provocation is the right word, David.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_03: I think I think sometimes to say kind of where where uh again where we've um we've journeyed with a few things kind of that we've done, and we think, oh yeah, I think I've probably got it kind of sus now.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_03: And the reality is that uh until we die and go to be with Jesus, actually we've always got things to to learn.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_03: And that there's always there's always things, there's always people to forgive, uh, there's always kind of uh um work to be done, there's also always care for the poor, that there's always things that we can use our time and our resources.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_03: That there's always bringing ourselves under the again, the Lordship of Jesus.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_03: It's not just about not doing the naughty things, but it's about doing the kingdom things.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_03: And and sometimes we can think we're doing okay because we're not doing the naughty things, but actually, are we doing the kingdom things?
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I think it's there's a cypresship challenge for us all.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um and and all and aware that in the cyber trip challenge, it is it's about self-care as well.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_03: It's about how it's not just do do do do, it's about BBB.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_03: Who are you becoming is the discipleship journey rather than what are you doing is the subject journey journey.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that the challenge of who are you becoming uh is uh kind of suppose when you the younger you are, that's the question of who I'm becoming.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe when you hit 60 or 70, you think, well, I've I've become who I'm gonna become, and actually it's really hard to change because I can't you kind of uh yeah, I'm stuck in my way.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_03: But actually, there's that's the challenge of how do you bring your life under the lawship of Jesus still.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um okay, just just five minutes again in in small groups.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_03: Uh again, that the question: how is my small group uh effectively discipling people, or how could it effectively disciple people?
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_03: That's okay.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_03: So if if making disciples is what Jesus asked us to do, small groups do with that kind of how is it or how could it effectively disciple people?
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_03: Is that okay?
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_03: Five minutes or so?
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: Great.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, folks, it's okay if I call us back to order.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um I wonder if you feel that there's any uh barriers to you making disciples.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um I I th I think there's something um again, it seems to be a command for you to do something.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_03: Uh we live in a society where um uh you uh uh telling people or uh suggesting to people th things they should do uh could be perceived as coercion sometimes or or even kind of um uh spiritual abuse.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_03: If you if you if you kind of how how do you uh handle the thing around calling people to bring their life under the laws of Jesus without you getting in the way and it becoming slightly manipulative or kind of um or even there's there's such a uh a force within a group that feel people feel they have to comply because of the the the the way that you've learned and and maybe that's Think there's some people who feel there's a danger there.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um, my son did a uh a counselling master's, and again, part of the of the deal was kind of um you just listen to people, kind of help them support them to make their own choices, to make their own what whatever, and actually you don't have any intervention, you don't kind of suggest a course of action because that's that's it's it's for them to do that.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_03: So when we um talk about discipleship and discipleship is is teaching people to obey everything Jesus commanded, actually, uh there could be some challenge around there, but have I got a a a right to to challenge?
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_03: Have I got a right to suggest?
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um so there's two things.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_03: One, I mean, uh Alison, do you want to just mention briefly just about your your role and what your yeah so um I'm I'm the designated safeguarding lead for the church, and the safeguarding is something that we often don't want to talk about, it's the uncomfortable stuff about it.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_05: But the the church has a responsibility to make sure that we are caring for people and we keep people safe.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_05: And as home group leaders, you're really best placed to pick up on things if things are going a bit wobbly, particularly in relationships if they're not quite right or your mental health or whatever.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_05: Um so just to let you know that there is support there for you, there is a safeguarding need in each of the competition, and so don't feel that you're left on your own and having to make decisions about what to do and how to handle it.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_05: There's always somebody that you can ask.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_05: So um do look at the little safeguarding bit at the bottom of the website, it's got lots of information there that can help you if you need it.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_03: One thing I've seen working on, and a few of us have been working on as trustees, is um something called Safe Church and probably just provoked a little bit by Michael Lavacci and how within a charismatic church, um how people's personality and kind of force of kind of uh can actually become a little bit harmful, a little bit toxic.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um and again we're we're aware that that kind of we don't want to assume that Woodlands Church is is kind of immune.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_03: And and obviously things that can end up being quite large start off quite small.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_03: And in some ways to just to notice things within uh and in some ways noticing those things is by bringing those under the Lordship of Jesus.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_03: So if there's anything that's um we've got a little kind of um something that might be unhelpful, uh uh and then something then becomes unhealthy, and then something that's unhealthy can become toxic, and something that's toxic becomes abusive, and and and actually to to notice that within I mean even within your co-home leaders, if if sometimes they might say something that's unhelpful, but actually if they start to do something that's unhealthy, they're getting some their own personal sense of esteem out of leadership and and kind of ah okay, there's some kind of and and and and so there is a again Alison's kind of helping with the trustees a little concern form uh if you just notice something that's happening within leadership that kind of that is is beyond kind of the command uh to make the disciples and and actually do there's the ability to raise raise some concerns because we want our church to be a safe church where people feel that it's a safe place to be.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_03: But we do want it to be a place that's not just passive, we do want it to be a place that's challenged uh and and challenging to to bring the lives and the lordship.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_03: There's a cost of discipleship.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_03: We need to call that out of one another.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_03: But is that okay?
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_03: So it and it's just a balance to kind of think about how do I passionately enthusiastically call people to to live and follow Jesus without being coercive and abusive in my in the way that I because you do have when you're a home group leader, a small group leader, in some ways you do have a little bit of power because you've been delegated responsibilities to to lead and to host and handle that really well.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_03: So what's the challenge around discipleship?
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_03: One of it is to do with power.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_03: I think the second is well, how do we bring people under the lordship of Jesus?
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_03: Which is why the Bible I think is a really important thing.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_03: So, how do you handle the Bible within small groups?
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_03: Because in some ways it's not just, well, here's my opinion of Jesus and here's what I happen to do in my walk with Jesus, which may be great, but unless it's kind of it's it's based on this book, uh, it can be just emotion and feeling and conjecture and kind of so um how's discipleship and the Bible work?
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_03: Because at the end of the day, the safe place is to bring people back to the Bible.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so um uh again, I I just think the um again, Dards Willard, who's a theologian chapter that I quite like, he wrote a book called The Great Omission.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_03: And um, it was based on the Great Commission, but he said that quite often people omit something when they talk about the Great Commission.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_03: And the word they omit is this one here, obey.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_03: Teaching them to obey everything I've commanded.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um, there's a difference between teaching everything Jesus has commanded and teaching people to obey everything Jesus commanded.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, within home group, if you just teach things that Jesus has commanded, you might be able to write around a really good Bible study and you have lots of intellectual thought ideas, you bounce around and you go home.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and actually Jesus says that you're like a foolish man.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_03: So anyone, therefore, anyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who builds his house on the rock.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, it could be that you run home group, you have a great intellectual discussion about the Bible, but unless people actually can go away and put it into practice, they're just a foolish people who are building the house on the sand.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_03: And there's a real difference between teaching everything Jesus commanded and teaching people to obey everything Jesus has commanded.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, which I I just think that's when whenever you come to do a Bible study within your small group, what is the outcome you're looking for?
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_03: Is the outcome you're looking for that people are going to go away and obey it?
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_03: Or do you want just people to challenge people's belief in something?
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_03: And I think if you only just teach people what Jesus commanded, um you're not even halfway there.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, but how do you teach people to obey everything?
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_03: Which is like when Dave says, why on a Sunday when we preach a sermon, we can kind of put some of the teaching of Jesus out there, but actually that's not gonna help people obey it.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, what we need to do in a small group is do you know when Tim said this or when Claire said that or when Dave said that on Sunday, kind of where's that set out in the Bible?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_03: And and actually, how on earth are we gonna do that?
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_03: It's okay for them, they're they're professional Christians.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_03: I've got I've got real life with kind of real challenges in my workplace and kind of and and actually where they're learning to obey it and to put it into practice, that's in small group.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_03: So, how you use the Bible within small group, I think it's really, really important.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um, because you can just think, well, I'm I'm a frustrated preacher, I would just love to give a 15-minute talk about kind of um uh the uh apocalypse in the book of whatever, and kind of um, and actually no, a small group is a place for discipleship.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_03: How do you bring people under the portionship of Jesus?
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_03: How do you help people to say, here's some scripture, and this week, how are you gonna put it into practice?
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_03: How are you gonna obey it?
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_03: Because that that's that's the deal of uh what it means to become a Christian.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_03: And so um uh again, for some of you, you may follow the notes, and again, like Dave says, there's probably about 10 questions that are there.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, we're not expecting you to do all ten questions, but actually, you know your people, and actually you know some of the challenges they're facing.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_03: Why not just pick two or three questions to talk about?
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_03: Not because they're necessarily the most interesting ones, but because you know that there's something there that you can work with, that people can put things into practice, they can obey what.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_03: So have a look at those ten questions and think, do you know what?
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_03: We'll just do these three questions because um I in the social time last week I talked to a couple people and they mentioned that, or when we had the prayer thing on the WhatsApp group, a three people put this prayer thing here.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_03: I've got a th I've got a feeling that this question from this passage is really gonna help them to obey what Jesus has commanded.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_03: Does that does that kind of make sense?
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_03: So so when you're either leaving the Bible group time yourself or whether you're delegating someone else to do it, actually always ask them what are we gonna put into practice as a result of this evening?
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_03: Because that's the deal.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_03: The wise person puts into practice.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_03: What we're gonna put in practice, actually, maybe how are we gonna report back next week or in a fortnight's time?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_03: Uh has it worked?
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_03: Did you try putting into practice?
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_03: Did you try forgiving that person?
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_03: Did you try kind of um uh being a servant?
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_03: Did you try kind of uh not holding grudges?
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_03: Did you try kind of okay, how how did it feel?
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_03: How did it work?
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_03: Did you put that into practice?
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_03: Because actually Jesus says you're like a person who's building your life on rock, where no one can control what happens to us in life, but you can control where you build your your life.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um it's on the rock.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_03: So five minutes uh in your uh again with your groups.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, the question is um how does uh your time looking at the Bible help people follow Jesus more effectively?
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_03: Or does it do other things?
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: That's okay.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_03: Just three or three or four minutes, and it's like okay, in your groups now.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_03: Good.
• 31:06
  unknown: So you can see online that's not confusion.