Latest / Trumponomics / Having a Resume Gap Is Becoming Less of a Job Hurdle

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Having a Resume Gap Is Becoming Less of a Job Hurdle · Trumponomics

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: All right. Let's say you're a successful white colored professional
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: in your thirties or forties, You have one or two kids,
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: take a few years off to take care of them,
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: and when they're finally settled in school, you decided it's
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: time to find a job again. And that's when things
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: start to get really hard. For many women and an
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: increasing number of men, this has been their reality. You
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: can't get a job again if you have such a
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: long gap on your resume. But that's starting to change
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  Speaker 1: in the US, where the lowest unemployment rate in almost
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  Speaker 1: seventeen years is beginning to bite. With the labor market
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: getting tighter, companies are looking at potential workers they might
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: previously not have considered. Today on benchmark, we'll talk with
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: someone who's made it her mission to make sure that happens.
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  Speaker 1: I'm Scott Landman, economics editor with Bloomberg News in Washington,
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: and I'm Annual Moss, an economics writer at Bloomberg View
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: in New York. Before we get to our guest who's
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: an expert in this subject, let's bring in my colleague,
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: Craig Torres, a reporter for Bloomberg in Washington who covers
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  Speaker 1: the U. S economy, and Federal Reserve, and recently wrote
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  Speaker 1: about this issue. Craig, thanks for being here. Glad to
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  Speaker 1: be here, so Craig. We often say that the labor
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: market is tight, with the jobless rate at just about
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  Speaker 1: four But that doesn't mean anyone can get a job, right.
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  Speaker 1: It means that companies have found the easy supply, let's
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: put it that way, and that the hard supply the
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  Speaker 1: people they need to train, the people they need to
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  Speaker 1: look for, who could all provide something to them in
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: the in the form of labor. They got to start
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: going out and looking for them or having programs to
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  Speaker 1: draw them in. And is this entirely about supply? Is
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  Speaker 1: it also about societies acceptance that, you know what, it's
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: okay for the guy to take some time out and
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: look after his kids. Once upon a time that would
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  Speaker 1: have been considered the sole purview of the mother. What
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  Speaker 1: we're talking about here is a bias about people who
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  Speaker 1: have stepped out of the labor force. I think the
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  Speaker 1: bias is probably softer for women. They say, well, maybe
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  Speaker 1: you know you were stay at home mom, But still
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  Speaker 1: does mothers face obstacles when they try and come back in.
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  Speaker 1: There's age bias at work. There's the concern that their
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  Speaker 1: skills have withered. What we're finding, what I wrote about,
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  Speaker 1: is companies are are when these people do come back in,
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  Speaker 1: they find that's not true. Many of these people sort
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  Speaker 1: of stuck outside the labor market are highly qualified. We'll
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  Speaker 1: find out a little bit more about how much this
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  Speaker 1: is happening today. Talk with somebody who's truly an expert.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: Carol Fishman Cohen is founder of a company called I
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  Speaker 1: Read Launch, which consults with dozens of big companies, including
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  Speaker 1: IBM and more than Haley on programs to bring back
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  Speaker 1: qualified people who have spent time out of the workforce.
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  Speaker 1: She's based in Boston and joins us from our one
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  Speaker 1: oh six point one FM AM radio studio there. Carol,
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  Speaker 1: Welcome to Benchmark. Thanks for having me. Carol, Could you
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  Speaker 1: please first tell us a little bit about your own
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  Speaker 1: story and why you left your job years ago, or
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  Speaker 1: how it wasn't really your choice, and how you got
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  Speaker 1: a job again. I was working in investment banking in
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  Speaker 1: the late eighties here in Boston for Drexel Burnham Lambert
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  Speaker 1: in their Boston corporate finance group, and I was on
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: maternity leave with my first child in February of Drexel collapsed,
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  Speaker 1: so I had no company to return to. That began
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  Speaker 1: my career break. I ended up having three more children
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  Speaker 1: in quick succession. Did some project work during that five
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: year period I was having more children, and then I
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  Speaker 1: was completely out of the workforce for the following six
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  Speaker 1: years home with them, And in two thousand and one
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  Speaker 1: I returned to work at Bain Capital in their high
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  Speaker 1: debt management group, in part because there were extractile people
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  Speaker 1: working there. But you know, in two thousand and one,
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  Speaker 1: no one was talking about this topic. H There were
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  Speaker 1: no programs, there was no media attention, and I didn't
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  Speaker 1: even know any other people who had gone back to
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  Speaker 1: work after taking career breaks at that point. So I
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  Speaker 1: felt isolated and without a game plan. But I made
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  Speaker 1: some mistakes, but then I did get back to work
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  Speaker 1: and I learned a lot too. Now, Carol, how long
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  Speaker 1: did it take between you deciding after your fourth child,
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  Speaker 1: I'm going to get back in and the opportunity at
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  Speaker 1: Bain opening up? In other words, were you an example
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  Speaker 1: of the phenomenon way describing or because you were in
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  Speaker 1: financial markets it was a little easier. Well, I wouldn't
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  Speaker 1: say it was easy at all, So I probably made
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  Speaker 1: the decision. I'm thinking in year nine of my eleven
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  Speaker 1: year career break. I had just taken on the two
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  Speaker 1: year term of PTO president at my kids school, and
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  Speaker 1: I remember thinking, when this term is over, I'm going
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  Speaker 1: to go back to work. And I had no idea
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  Speaker 1: how I was going to do it, but I just
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  Speaker 1: kind of put that date in my mind. So that
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  Speaker 1: was in nine, and then in two thousand I ended
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  Speaker 1: up going to my fifteen year business school reunion and
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  Speaker 1: I ran into someone there who I hadn't been in
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  Speaker 1: touch with in years, and she had become a head hunter,
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  Speaker 1: and so I told her that I had this finance
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  Speaker 1: career and I was on career break and I was
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  Speaker 1: thinking about going back. And about nine months later, she
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  Speaker 1: came back to me with a job in the Boston
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  Speaker 1: area that she said she felt was perfect for my
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  Speaker 1: skill set. Now I I always get a laugh out
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  Speaker 1: of that because I I think what skill set? What
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  Speaker 1: she's talking about? The skill set that she remembered that
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  Speaker 1: I had when we were sitting next to each other
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  Speaker 1: as first years in nineteen eighty three. Uh So that's
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  Speaker 1: when this whole idea of being frozen in time came
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  Speaker 1: into my mind that people from the past, people with
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  Speaker 1: whom you work or went to school, remember you as
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  Speaker 1: you were. Uh, even if your sense of self has
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  Speaker 1: diminished over time if you've been on career break, and
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  Speaker 1: that was certainly the case with me. So that was
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  Speaker 1: what really started it going. I didn't end up getting
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  Speaker 1: that job, but it did get me back in job
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  Speaker 1: search mode, and then I started getting in touch with people,
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  Speaker 1: and people were very encouraging because they remembered me from before.
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  Speaker 1: And one of the most junior guys on an investment
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  Speaker 1: banking team that I had worked with at Drexel became
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  Speaker 1: a managing director at Bain Capital in the eleven years
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  Speaker 1: while I was on career break, and he's the one
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  Speaker 1: who opened the door for me to go interview there.
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  Speaker 1: He said, I can't get you a job, but why
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  Speaker 1: don't you come in and talk to a few people.
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  Speaker 1: But that doesn't talk about or include the time that
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  Speaker 1: I spent having informational interviews and informal conversations with people.
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  Speaker 1: And also I was trying to re up my skill set.
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  Speaker 1: I had to resubscribe to the Wall Street Journal. I
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  Speaker 1: had hadn't read it for years, and read it cover
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  Speaker 1: to cover for a good six months before I felt
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  Speaker 1: like I had a handle on what was going on
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  Speaker 1: in the business world. Again. I had to, you know,
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  Speaker 1: look at my old business school cases and deals that
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  Speaker 1: I worked on and and refresh my idea of how
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  Speaker 1: to make certain calculations, and also understand the new market. Um,
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  Speaker 1: what were the new financial products? What why were we
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  Speaker 1: not using certain old ones anymore? And then there there
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  Speaker 1: was so much consolidation in the market that I had
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  Speaker 1: to even think about what companies exist now and what
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  Speaker 1: don't exist, and which ones had their name change and
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  Speaker 1: who had acquired who, So all of that was going
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  Speaker 1: on at the same time. So that's a lot of
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  Speaker 1: homework to do. And did this happen during that nine
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  Speaker 1: month period between when you met your old classmate and
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  Speaker 1: when they reached out with a potential opportunity or was
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  Speaker 1: this after the potential opportunity kind of kicked him land
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  Speaker 1: into high gia. I was starting to think about going back,
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  Speaker 1: and I was new I wanted to go back into
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  Speaker 1: something in finance, And actually that in itself was a mistake.
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  Speaker 1: I didn't do a whole new career assessment for myself.
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  Speaker 1: I just thought I'd come from financial analysis. I'm going
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  Speaker 1: back into it. Uh And and later I realized I
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  Speaker 1: should have done more of a full assessment, but that
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  Speaker 1: probably started. It probably started maybe a year before I
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  Speaker 1: got the job. Carol, Let's roll forward fifteen years. Why
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  Speaker 1: are dozens of companies now looking for working moms, stay
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  Speaker 1: at home dad's or simply those people who are forty
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  Speaker 1: and older who haven't been able to get back in.
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  Speaker 1: Why are every Why is everybody from Booze Allen to
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  Speaker 1: Morgan Stanley to Barkley's going after this labor pool. You know,
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  Speaker 1: it's so interesting to hear you talk about it in
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  Speaker 1: that way, because you know, we've been in the space
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  Speaker 1: UM for over ten years, toiling away talking about the
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  Speaker 1: virtues of the return to work population, and it feels
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  Speaker 1: like all of a sudden, there is a lot of
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  Speaker 1: attention on this issue and companies across different industry sectors
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  Speaker 1: are starting to engage with this pool. If you look
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  Speaker 1: at the history, the first formal return to work internship
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  Speaker 1: programs started in two thousand and eight with Gold and Sacks.
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  Speaker 1: JP Morgan added one in two thousand thirteen, and then
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  Speaker 1: UM three more financial services companies added them in two
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  Speaker 1: thousand fourteen, and now we have even more. So I
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  Speaker 1: think what happened was in the financial services sector there
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  Speaker 1: was this sense of urgency around not enough women in
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  Speaker 1: mid to senior level roles. And that happened because those
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  Speaker 1: companies are so old and they have seen so many
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  Speaker 1: generations at generation after generation of their employees go through
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  Speaker 1: all these different life stages, and then they've seen women
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  Speaker 1: peel off at in each one, and so suddenly there
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  Speaker 1: became this urgency, we don't have enough women at mid
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  Speaker 1: to senior level roles, and that is what triggered a
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  Speaker 1: lot of these programs in that sector. And then once
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  Speaker 1: the program started, even skeptical hiring managers saw who was
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  Speaker 1: coming in the door in terms of the caliber of
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  Speaker 1: who was participating, and then they got interested too, and
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  Speaker 1: the programs started to expand. Carol, one thing that really
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  Speaker 1: struck me is that even though these programs have multiplied,
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  Speaker 1: as Craig said, companies are much more interested in the past.
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  Speaker 1: I was struck by something that Craig had written in
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  Speaker 1: his recent story that there were, you know, hundreds and
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  Speaker 1: hundreds of applicants for maybe just a couple dozen or
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  Speaker 1: a handful of spots at some of these companies. Is
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  Speaker 1: that a sign that there still are a lot more
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  Speaker 1: people on the outside trying to get into these programs,
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  Speaker 1: and there is you know, an actual supply of these
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  Speaker 1: kinds of jobs that are available. Well, what I would
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  Speaker 1: say is we're only at the beginning of companies setting
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  Speaker 1: up these programs and expanding them. So what I relaunched,
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  Speaker 1: we work with the biggest companies in the world, in
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: part because of the potential to scale UM grow the
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  Speaker 1: programs across divisions domestically and internationally UM. But really there
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  Speaker 1: are only a handful of companies that are running these programs.
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  Speaker 1: If you look, we we keep a running list. I
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  Speaker 1: think we're up to about seventy two globally of paid
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  Speaker 1: career reentry programs around the world, formal corporate programs. But
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  Speaker 1: in terms of the supply, if you look at Bureau
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  Speaker 1: of Labor Statistics micro data, and you look at educated
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  Speaker 1: mothers of prime working age, so women between the ages
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  Speaker 1: of fifty four with children under eighteen who have a
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  Speaker 1: bachelor's degree or higher. If you look at that demographic,
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  Speaker 1: about there are about two point six million of them
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  Speaker 1: who are not in the labor force, and studies show
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  Speaker 1: us roughly eight of them are interested in returning after
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  Speaker 1: taking a career break. So I think we are only
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  Speaker 1: at the tip of the iceberg in terms of tapping
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  Speaker 1: this population. And remember that it's this is a dynamic number,
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  Speaker 1: so there are constantly people leaving the workforce to join
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  Speaker 1: this pool and then leaving the school to rejoin the workforce.
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  Speaker 1: So we always have this fresh supply of roughly a
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  Speaker 1: little over two million educated mothers of prime working age
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  Speaker 1: who could participate in these programs. And that doesn't even
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  Speaker 1: count the women and men who are taking career breaks
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  Speaker 1: for reasons that have nothing to do with childcare, could
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: be elder care or other reasons. Carol Craig and others
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  Speaker 1: here at Bloomberg have written about the skills mismatch more broadly,
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  Speaker 1: and we've heard some CEOs complain about that. Now you've
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  Speaker 1: talked about the impetus for some big companies to get
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: more women into executive ranks. How does that dovetail with
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  Speaker 1: the skills mismatch that a lot of employees are starting
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: to complain increasingly volubly about. Are you talking mostly about
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: skills mismatch on the technical side or something more broad
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: than that. Technology would be one example and Craig feel
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: free to jump in here in a story of yours
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  Speaker 1: that I edited a year or two ago. I believe
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: he was citing Boeing for example, but it certainly wasn't
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: limited to air space. I think what companies find, correct
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  Speaker 1: me if I'm wrong, Carol, is that these people, the
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  Speaker 1: reason they have internships is that these returners, as Carol
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: calls them, can learn on the job. And what they
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  Speaker 1: find is, at least in finance, skills are still pretty sharp.
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  Speaker 1: That some things have changed, but not a lot, and
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  Speaker 1: it doesn't take that much time for these people to
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  Speaker 1: get up to speed. Is that your experience, Carol, Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: it's really interesting that you say this, because we've now
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: heard people say across industry sectors, like the fundamental principles
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: of multivarianable statistics analysis have not changed, only the tools
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: to interpret them, or you know, the fundamental ways that
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: you analyze risk and for certain financial products have not changed,
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: but only some of the software that you use in
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: order to do the analysis has changed. So we have
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: heard that. Let me just take the most extreme example,
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: and that would be people who are on long career
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: breaks from I T or engineering careers, because that's the
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: other area where we're doing a lot of work. And
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  Speaker 1: at this point we have fourteen huge companies that will
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: all soon be eighteen that are part of an initiative
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: we co lead with the Society of Women Engineers called
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: the STEM re Entry Task Force, and all of those
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: companies are running paid re entry internship programs for returning
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: technical professionals. And these are people who've been out of
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: the workforce for years and years, so oftentimes they need
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: to take some kind of formal coursework in order to
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: have their skills updated to the point where they're viable candidates.
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: We have an unemployment right in this country of full
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: point one. What happens to the demographic phenomenon you're describing
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: next time the economy slows. Current expansion is the third
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: largest on record. It's going to end at some point.
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: So look, this is a high caliber labor pool that
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: companies looking for top talent should tap regardless of the
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: status of the economy. The mid career returned to work
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: internship programs at big companies are getting great results. Of
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: the participants in these programs are getting hired, So companies
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: should aim to attract the best candidates from the return
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: to workpool, just like any other talent pool. Carol, we're
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: out of time and we'll have to leave it there,
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: but this will be a really fascinating issue to see
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: how it develops in the coming years, especially if we
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: do have a downturn. Carol Fishman Cohen Craig, tourist, Thanks
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: so much for joining us today on Benchmark. Thank you
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: for having me. Benchmark will be back next week and
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: until then, you can find us on the Bloomberg terminal,
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot com, are Bloomberg app, as well as on
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, pocket Cast, and Stitcher. While you're there, take
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: a minute to rate and review the show so more
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: listeners can find us and let us know what you
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: thought of the show. You can follow me on Twitter
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: at at Scott Landman. Craig is at at s Taurus.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: Reporter Dan you are at most on the School Echo
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: and our guest Carol you are at. Benchmark is produced
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  Speaker 1: by Sarah Patterson with the head of Bloomberg Podcast is
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: Francesco Levie. Thanks for listening. To see you next time.