Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to James Lark about his choice of The Ark (1/4)

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Talks to James Lark about his choice of The Ark (1/4) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:33
  Hamster with a blunt pen knife for doing quicker.
• 0:36
  Quicker Welcome back to a hamster with a blunt pen knife,
• 0:39
  The Doctor Who commentary podcast.
• 0:44
  Something very strange is occurring today.
• 0:47
  James. Hello.
• 0:48
  Hello, Joe. You feel I feel very close to
• 0:51
  you right now. To you as well, Yes, almost
• 0:54
  uncomfortably close, that's. Right, as close as as Dodo is to
• 0:59
  all the people that she wipes out in the art.
• 1:01
  Let's hope you don't have a cold virus The.
• 1:05
  Very War of the Worlds that would be, wouldn't it?
• 1:07
  How are you? I'm I'm.
• 1:09
  I'm very well indeed. Yeah, you've, you've come to
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  Eastbourne today, haven't you? I consider it the the hamster
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  pilgrimage. You know, everyone ends up in
• 1:16
  Eastbourne eventually. That's right.
• 1:17
  You pointed out all of the all of the Doctor Who locations very
• 1:21
  quick. You can just about see Brighton
• 1:26
  in the distance over there. That's right.
• 1:27
  We sort of, we went back in time to the 1960s, to the Victorian
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  tea rooms. That is right, yes, there's you
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  time travel. Even as you traverse the streets
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  in Eastbourne, you're immediately transported to the
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  20th century, I have to say. If you also time travel another
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  way is that you instantly get about 30 years older the second
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  you arrive. So there it is.
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  There's a bit of grain. Your beard now there wasn't here
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  when you arrived, no. Well, that was just the train
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  journey, OK? No, thank you for coming all
• 1:58
  this way. Thank you for having me, what a
• 2:00
  pleasure to be on the actual the sofa itself.
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  We've stuffed ourselves for a cake already, haven't we?
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  Didn't know where that sentence was going to end then, did you?
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  And what are we here to do? We're here, as you've already I
• 2:13
  think hinted to discuss the Ark. Oh, but N is running Oh.
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  No, me me me accent's changing. I think it's Earth.
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  Earth. I think it's Whipsnades too,
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  isn't it? Now, this is a there's not an
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  odd choice because I think there's plenty to talk about.
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  But you know, I really do not know where you fall on this one,
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  whether you think it is an absolute classic, a complete
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  stinker, or somewhere in the middle.
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  I don't think it's any of those things.
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  Well, where does it fall then? Well, what do you think?
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  You're you're, you're. Looking at it in a very 2
• 2:53
  dimensional way if I may say so, you have a single axis on your
• 2:57
  graph. Frequently, yes.
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  I I don't think this is the best of Doctor Who.
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  Certainly not the worst though. And it's, and it's also an
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  example of Doctor Who in it's early years really trying to
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  push the boat out in terms of ambition and scale, both in
• 3:17
  terms of what it's trying to put on screen and also in terms of
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  the the scope of the story. It's the first time that a story
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  has really started to look at the consequences of the Doctor
• 3:33
  doing what the doctor does, something which has been done so
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  many times in more recent years that it's almost become a bit
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  passe. But at the time this was this
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  was breaking very new ground. They could have done it.
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  They could have done it with Dalek evasion of Earth.
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  Yeah. They chose not to at all.
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  It's just, oh, the Daleks have escaped from Scaro and they're
• 3:52
  here. Yeah.
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  And it's, and it's really Doctor Who has been pretty linear up to
• 3:56
  this point. There's a little bit of, oh,
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  what happens if we play around with with time in the Space
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  Museum. There's a little bit of OK, So
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  what does is there a another perspective on people dropping
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  into different parts of history in the time meddler?
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  But no one up until this point has ever really done a thing,
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  which is pretty standard, I would say, in a lot of time
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  travel science fiction, which is to say what what actually
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  happens when someone goes to a place makes, I mean, we let's
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  let's say changes. I mean, Doctor Who has this
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  weird thing where you can change whatever you like in the future
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  because we don't know what happens.
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  But as long as but if it's if it's recorded history, you can't
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  change it. Not not a single sent note.
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  What's the quote? Not not one.
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  Not one. Line, line.
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  That's it. It's right, yes, but.
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  I mean going to. Go to another planet.
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  It's fair game. You can change the politics, you
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  can depose rulers, you know. I'm going to go back in time
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  actually, and change the scripts of the Aztecs to not one
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  sentence. So though I I got that right.
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  Well done. Yes.
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  Yeah. I mean, I, I do wonder, you
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  know, I'm hoping one day, you know, you do return to my home,
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  you know, and you'll see then the consequences of your first
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  visit, you know? Oh, will it?
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  Yes, indeed. Well, that's dramatic as the
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  Ark. That statue of Mark's legs is is
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  crying out. It's got someone else's head on.
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  You'll be our deity now, after this fabulous commentary.
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  But it's it is a fascinating idea, though isn't?
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  It it's a really, really interesting idea.
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  I'm not sure it's all that successful.
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  Well, they don't engage with it. They they present it and then we
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  get 2 episodes of Oh well, they've gone bad, let's defeat
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  them. To some extent.
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  Now, this is the other thing is that I think that in more recent
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  commentary, the Ark has been perceived as a bit problematic,
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  shall we say? Yes.
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  And some people have been quite vocally critical of the idea
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  that it it's actually represents the worst kind of neo colonial
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  perspective. The monoids are a a deliberate
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  attempt to portray a different race as a lesser species.
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  Now I'm actually think the intentions of the Ark.
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  Again, this is where realisation and intention not quite the same
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  thing, but I think the Ark actually intends to say
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  something much more nuanced than that.
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  What do you think it's saying there?
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  I think it comes back to the, the, the whole consequences
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  thing. And I think it's very, very
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  subtly seeded because in the first couple of episodes, the
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  monoids are quote UN quote friends.
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  OK, in terms of the way that they are spoken about, they are
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  treated as, I mean, the, the, the back story for the monoids
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  is, is that they are a race who also have lost their planet.
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  And it's, it's spoken about by the humans as if it's a, a joint
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  endeavour to go to refuses and set up afresh.
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  And yet the monoids are shown in a servile role.
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  It's not clear to what extent they are willing participants in
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  that because they don't speak, they don't have a voice.
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  And when people start dropping, the humans are immediately
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  stretchered off by monoids, whereas monoids are just left to
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  crumple where they stand. Now that could be seen as a
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  again, a kind of colonial approach to to the alien, the
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  the the non human, except that it comes back to bite the
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  humans. And yeah, I, I think that it's
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  not a very sophisticated way of showing that consequence by just
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  having the monoids become frankly kind of second rate
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  villains and rather stupid villains at that.
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  However, there is the moment in the fourth episode where the
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  doctor berates the humans for the way that they treated them
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  all and says this is on you, this is to do with the way you
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  treated them. And I don't think it's a message
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  that is particularly successfully delivered, but I do
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  think and I and I, and it stands out in that striking moment
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  where you see the the earth boiling and and falling through
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  space. I think there is an attempt
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  there to show that actually, regardless of race, regardless
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  even of hierarchy, where where you stand in the hierarchy, if
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  your planet is on fire, you're all fucked together.
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  And I, I do think that that's the intention and that there is
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  a deliberate intent to show an, an unconscious mistreatment of a
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  different race. And that I think is is
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  sophisticated, particularly for the time this programme was
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  made. Yeah, the first half definitely.
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  Yes, I can see that reading the second-half.
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  Sometimes I, I do wonder, you know, if some of this stuff is
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  over examined and like there may be some influences in there.
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  But I do question sometimes when people suggest a lot of this
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  stuff is really politically charged if they're not just
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  finding something to talk about. Yes, you can make that reading.
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  I don't know, with one eyed, floppy feeted monsters
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  scrabbling about with ray guns? I'm not.
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  I'm not suggesting for a moment that this story weathers A dense
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  political reading good, but I do think, I do think that
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  thematically it's much stronger than it's been at because
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  historically, and I now, I first came to the arc through the
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  target novelisation and I and my memory of reading the arc was
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  always it's a it's a game of two halves that the first half is
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  the worthy but dull section where the doctor cures a cold.
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  The second-half is the exciting sci-fi bit where the monoids go
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  evil and that's. Going to tell me it's the
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  reverse on TV, aren't you? No, I'm no, I'm no.
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  Again, you're trying to put me on this axis of of a very simple
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  2 dimensional axis. Well, you are talking to me all
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  right. It's more complex than that,
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  that I think that is how the story has been assumed to be as
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  well. And if you read, say, Peter
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  Haining's celebration, you know the, the, the potted
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  descriptions in there, that's, that's what it says.
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  It's it's literally 2 stories in the.
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  Same book, but is that the Jeremy Bentham?
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  The Jeremy Bentham one, Yeah, he.
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  Suggests that The Gunfighters is the worst, single worst Octooth
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  story of all time. It was not good, it was bad and
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  it was ugly. Yeah.
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  Superb critical tone there. I, I actually think that the
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  four episodes are much more thematically integrated than has
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  been acknowledged. And, and there's the
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  interesting. And again, it it doesn't come
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  across in the way it ought to, partly because they're
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  invisible. But the refusions are an
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  interesting element in this as well, because.
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  I want to hear this. Well, because in the 1st 2
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  episodes, and again, this is, I mean, this is so relevant.
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  I'm, I'm not trying to kind of push a, a, a, a major political
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  interpretation of this story because I think the political
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  themes are as you would want in Doctor Who.
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  Pretty. Broad, pretty broad and pretty
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  lightly. You know, it's not it's you
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  can't. The whole thing is not an
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  allegory. It's it's but the the themes are
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  are present in all four episodes.
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  And the point is that everyone becomes an immigrant in, in, in
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  that final episode and, and, and, and actually how, what,
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  what, whatever you think of the unsubtle way in which the the
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  monoids are become the kind of victims of the way they've been
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  treated only, you know, because they've been badly treated, they
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  end up treating people badly in return.
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  You know, that's, that's laid on a bit thick, maybe.
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  But as I say, it's a sci-fi yarn.
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  It's more interesting for having a villain, even a crap villain.
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  But, but in that final episode, the monoids also have to
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  reassess because they suddenly are in the same position as the
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  humans. It's, it's, again, I, I just, I
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  feel like the outlook is a really intelligent one because
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  it's, it's asking questions that we should constantly be asking
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  actually about, you know, where we come from, where we're going
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  to, and where do we, how do we fit in?
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  And, you know, at a time when immigration is barely out of
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  the, the, the news headlines, because some people apparently
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  think that no one should move anywhere and should all stay
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  where they quote UN quote belong.
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  It's, it's definitely something we should be reflecting on and,
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  and why we think that and what does happen if somewhere becomes
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  uninhabitable, which is a very real and present threat in the
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  world that we live in today. So it's it's not the the best
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  executed example of Doctor Who touching on topical issues, but
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  they are nevertheless topical and I do think that it's a more
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  intelligent reading than it has been given credit for.
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  Is that acknowledged in part 4? I know I have To be honest, I
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  usually go into the arc really focusing on parts one and two,
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  and then get lost somewhere in parts 3 and 4 when the monoids
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  are waddling about with their ray guns and we're fighting with
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  invisible creatures and things. Is it acknowledged that we're
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  all immigrants now and we should all work together?
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  I don't think it is, is it? Well, no one says that out loud.
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  I mean, they would nowadays. They would nowadays and I'm not
• 14:02
  sure it would be able to script for that.
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  I think it's there. I'll be interested to see when
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  we get to 4. I'm going to give it some focus.
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  It's there because the refusians have a an immigration policy
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  which is either you lot can get on with each other or you're not
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  coming in, which is again a wonderful.
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  Policy, I mean, why can't we adopt that here so.
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  Yeah, that sounds very simple. Should.
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  We not all learn the language and work.
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  Will you just be nice to each other please?
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  But that but sorry that that is AI mean it.
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  It's a really basic thing to say, but it's more intelligent
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  than I'd say some of the policies that are in proposed by
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  the home secretary in the last few, no.
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  Don't you turn this into an angry political.
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  Rant. But I am angry about that
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  because it because what is being proposed at the moment is a
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  grossly hypocritical double standard where a group of
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  people, purely because they come from somewhere else, will be
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  held to a completely different standard than those of us who
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  are here already. And I don't think it's good
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  enough to say, well, we're here already, so we don't have to
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  meet that standard. Sure, if you want, if you want
• 15:15
  this country to be defined by a certain set set of standards.
• 15:19
  I mean, I'd like them to be standards of of kindness
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  fundamentally. But whatever it is, whether it's
• 15:26
  speaking the language or picking up litter, I think we should all
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  be held to that standard, frankly.
• 15:31
  Yes. There you go.
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  I'm not going to argue. I'm not going to argue with a
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  point where you and me are coming from exactly the same
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  direction. You more eloquently.
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  But I also think that the arc Episode 4 is coming from that
• 15:43
  direction where it's saying, look, you, if you're going to
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  come here, just behave yourself. Yes, but that is amongst, you
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  know, sequences of, you know, flat footed monsters running
• 15:56
  around forests and statues being thrown through the air.
• 15:59
  And you know, like, I mean, it isn't, it's not the most angry
• 16:03
  political Doctor Who stories. It's not the Happiness Patrol.
• 16:06
  It's it's not. It's still a good adventure.
• 16:09
  How yeah, it so whenever, whenever politics and Doctor Who
• 16:15
  are are are discussed, it's always kind of the the angry,
• 16:17
  obvious ones that are that are pulled out.
• 16:19
  And we're much more likely to discuss the mutants if we're
• 16:25
  talking about colonialism than we are to discuss the arc.
• 16:28
  And that's partly, I think the mutants is is better written
• 16:30
  than the arc, but it I think it's also because the mutants
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  wears its politics much more on its sleeve.
• 16:36
  And we can we can discuss kind of how much Doctor Who ought to
• 16:40
  wear it's politics on its sleeve.
• 16:41
  I have nothing against Doctor Who being political, but I do
• 16:45
  think that the the people who complain about Doctor Who has
• 16:47
  gone woke for all that their ignorance of where Doctor Who
• 16:51
  has come from politically, they do have a point, which is that
• 16:54
  Doctor Who is first and foremost an entertainment programme.
• 16:58
  And if it's going to kind of have, have conceal some
• 17:04
  political message or some, I would, I would prefer Doctor Who
• 17:09
  really to, to conceal ideas rather than political
• 17:17
  viewpoints, because I think Doctor Who is is at its best
• 17:21
  when it's making people think. But it shouldn't be doing that
• 17:24
  on the surface. It should be doing it, you know,
• 17:25
  underneath the entertainment. And so the Ark does that very
• 17:28
  well. Extremely well, I mean, I did
• 17:30
  see just this week I sent you and Michael Mills a photograph
• 17:34
  of a Conservative MP wearing a Sylvester McCoy jumper, which I
• 17:40
  thought was a very bold thing to do given the opinion of the
• 17:44
  Tories during the Sylvester McCoy era.
• 17:48
  And I mean, no one ever talks about Paradise Towers.
• 17:51
  And I think that's one of the angriest don't do stories
• 17:54
  politically. It's a scathing indictment of
• 17:56
  the Thatcher era. What I also think as well is
• 18:01
  you're not short changed on ideas in the Ark.
• 18:04
  Which is definitely not. Wonderful.
• 18:07
  And I think that the director is not shortchanged of chances to
• 18:13
  flourish his art on the screen. I think this is a really
• 18:18
  imaginatively directed and designed Doctor Who story.
• 18:22
  I think it's a bit of a visual feast and if there's a few
• 18:25
  things that is, it's overly ambitious and it can't quite
• 18:29
  pull it off. I think this is one of those
• 18:32
  rare Doctor Who stories where they just say we're going to try
• 18:35
  it all and see what works. I think a lot of it does and.
• 18:38
  I think it's consciously that ambitious.
• 18:42
  I think the first episode of the Ark is the most expensive
• 18:45
  episode of Doctor Who up until this point.
• 18:47
  I can see what that bloody jungle.
• 18:49
  Yeah, Elephant. The elephant and, and, and the
• 18:52
  model shots as well. And it does give it a genuine
• 18:54
  sense of scale. Is this, it's going to sound
• 19:00
  like a weird thing to say, given that we've talked about kind of
• 19:02
  how unusual a story this is in some ways.
• 19:04
  But is is this the most normal Doctor Who story Produced by
• 19:07
  John Wyles? What do you mean by normal?
• 19:10
  The most typical? Well, you've just explained it
• 19:15
  several ways in which is atypical.
• 19:17
  Yeah. The structuring of it, the
• 19:18
  consequences, the politics. Oh, I suppose there's a lot of
• 19:21
  politics in what? Asked Doctor Who.
• 19:23
  But but compared to the Massacre and the Daleks master plan.
• 19:30
  The myth makers. The myth makers.
• 19:32
  Yeah, I mean, it is a, it is essentially A straightforward
• 19:35
  adventure, isn't it? Just packed full of incident and
• 19:39
  yeah, excitement and set pieces and.
• 19:42
  If there's one story, which is John Wiles saying this is what I
• 19:45
  think kind of the programme can be, I don't think he wants it
• 19:48
  all to be like the massacre or the Daleks master plan or even
• 19:51
  the myth makers. I think this is probably his
• 19:54
  vision, the purest version of his vision in 4 episodes.
• 19:57
  Well, this was the one where. What was the script named?
• 20:00
  Donald Tosh was like, you know, Wells was handed didn't his
• 20:04
  notice at this point he's had enough of 12 part Dalek epics.
• 20:07
  He's now this is not what I want to make and Donald Tosh is there
• 20:10
  saying, but come on now, we had all these ideas.
• 20:13
  You know, we're just doing the arc now, like, and then he's
• 20:17
  gone. And it was their idea.
• 20:19
  It wasn't Paul Erickson's idea. He was handed the idea and and
• 20:22
  and wrote it so. Can you imagine?
• 20:24
  Wells and Tosh have read a lot of HG Wells.
• 20:28
  Probably. I mean who?
• 20:29
  I don't know. I think there's a fair bit of it
• 20:32
  in there isn't. It there.
• 20:33
  Is War of the Worlds and a few other influences.
• 20:36
  But it's but but a lot of the this this is the other
• 20:40
  interesting about the arc. It it's got a lot of sci-fi
• 20:44
  ideas packed into it. And a thing that I find quite
• 20:49
  charming about it is that nevertheless, it's it it's kind
• 20:52
  of written with this very British turn of phrase and and
• 21:00
  where I think it wants to be kind of doing cutting edge
• 21:03
  American style sci-fi. You've still got security
• 21:06
  kitchen kitchens. And what is it?
• 21:09
  What is it? The reason that the refusions of
• 21:11
  are invisible is a galactic disaster.
• 21:15
  And it's and it's got that kind of very British thing about it,
• 21:19
  which is very Doctor Who, which is it it?
• 21:22
  It's trying to do pure sci-fi, but it's still kind of tee time
• 21:26
  sci-fi. It's fun.
• 21:27
  Yeah. I mean, just the fact that, you
• 21:29
  know, they want to show us the magic of the future, so they put
• 21:32
  this sort of peel into a bowl and all of these peeled spuds
• 21:36
  suddenly appear out of nowhere. I mean, that's just Doctor Who
• 21:39
  in a nutshell, isn't it? Yeah, and the miniaturization of
• 21:41
  the people as well. That's a.
• 21:43
  Good effect. It's a good effect.
• 21:45
  It's a it's a really interesting idea that you've got trays full
• 21:48
  of the human race. And you know, James, we haven't
• 21:50
  even, I mean, we should go in a second really.
• 21:53
  Otherwise, you'll never, ever going home tonight.
• 21:56
  But we haven't even talked about how fabulous William Hartnall is
• 22:00
  in this story. Obviously, Dodo's first full
• 22:02
  story. Peter Purvis.
• 22:04
  I mean, there's so much to talk about it.
• 22:05
  There is. Should we head in?
• 22:08
  I mean, I must say, props to the pair of us.
• 22:11
  We've both mentioned packing things in You Ideas and me cake,
• 22:15
  and neither one of us has fallen down the usual hamster tropes.
• 22:19
  Congratulations to us. Well done, us.
• 22:21
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 22:22
  Yeah. Well, I'm sure it won't last.
• 22:24
  Do you want to count? In yeah, so if you're watching
• 22:26
  along with us and nobody does, no.
• 22:30
  Does anybody? Do do write to us.
• 22:34
  You should, you know, because not only would you get
• 22:36
  intelligent discourse, but you'd have fabulous visuals for this
• 22:38
  one. Yeah, OK, so we're going to
• 22:41
  start episode 1 of the Ark in 321.
• 22:47
  Go. Oh no.
• 22:50
  This is not how I remember the arc.
• 22:53
  Oh, something's happening. Hang on everyone, please return
• 22:56
  to your menu. Return to your menu.
• 22:59
  We're not entirely sure what's going on.
• 23:00
  It's reading a disc, apparently. I think it's ready to go.
• 23:05
  We should hear music at some point.
• 23:09
  We're in because we're in the past in Eastbourne.
• 23:12
  We're using a DVD to watch this story.
• 23:16
  That's a Blu-ray player. Excuse me, what are you
• 23:19
  suggesting? I'm.
• 23:21
  I'm here in Eastbourne, We still use an Abacus.
• 23:25
  Abacay. How do you say it?
• 23:27
  Do you do though? Don't.
• 23:29
  You. Yes.
• 23:29
  Yes, yeah, we've got wooden coat hangers as well.
• 23:35
  OK, here we go. Oh my.
• 23:37
  Is that a salamander? They've definitely got some
• 23:41
  wildlife. There's a bloody snake hanging
• 23:44
  from the tree in a minute. What's interesting about this is
• 23:48
  that it could very well be stock footage, and it's not unlike
• 23:52
  Doctor Who to establish scenes using stock footage.
• 23:57
  Well, usually the fact that it's on film usually means it is
• 24:00
  stock. Footage.
• 24:00
  Is it on film? It's a shot on film.
• 24:03
  Yeah, for sure, I think. Oh, no, I'm not sure.
• 24:08
  Yeah. Surely this is Ealing.
• 24:10
  This is not. This isn't the studio.
• 24:12
  I think if there are animals, it must be in film.
• 24:14
  It's hard to tell on the on the DVD's though, isn't it?
• 24:17
  But watch as it goes past, there's a snake sort of dripping
• 24:20
  from the from the branches. Yeah, yeah, it's a it's a big
• 24:24
  set. So I.
• 24:25
  Do feel sorry for that toucan or whatever it was, it just got
• 24:27
  thrown into shop there. But I think that is 1 moment
• 24:31
  where the viewer might be tricked into thinking they're
• 24:35
  watching stock footage, and very consciously it's a single shot
• 24:40
  moving into the monoid. We're clearly not using stock
• 24:42
  footage anymore. And those animals were in the
• 24:45
  studio, and there's a snake. I mean, look at this.
• 24:47
  It's one long tracking shot going over the monoid's shoulder
• 24:51
  and then just following through to the to the TARDIS
• 24:53
  materializing. There's just a bit more thought
• 24:56
  here than you normally get in the 60s.
• 24:57
  Something. That's a very sexy shot as well.
• 25:01
  I think with the elephant that that they're trying to trick you
• 25:05
  into thinking that. That's a single shot as well.
• 25:08
  Isn't it? And then then it cuts to Dodo
• 25:10
  running in and you're aware. OK, so Dodo has literally just
• 25:16
  gone into the TARDIS, right? We don't.
• 25:17
  We're not too sure how long it's been, but let's assume it's been
• 25:20
  10 minutes since she wandered in.
• 25:23
  And now she's quite happily in another place, dancing around,
• 25:27
  going well. It must be a zoo I went to once,
• 25:29
  Whitsnade. Was she wearing that when she
• 25:33
  arrived in the in the previous? Episode, he says for a minute.
• 25:36
  What are you playing? Crusades?
• 25:39
  Yeah, she said she had time to go and get changed.
• 25:41
  So I'm not sure the costume's helping to establish her
• 25:45
  character. Bet you thought you caught me,
• 25:47
  James. Bet you thought I didn't know.
• 25:50
  I mean, it is a mannered performance.
• 25:52
  What accent are we doing this week, Jackie Lane?
• 25:57
  That that is A2 con. There it is.
• 26:00
  I but I do I always feel sympathetic towards Jackie Lane.
• 26:04
  She she does a pretty good northern accent when she comes
• 26:08
  into the TARDIS and she has been told this week she she's not
• 26:12
  allowed to do it anymore. So she's got to kind of
• 26:16
  presumably lines that she's rehearsed with a different
• 26:19
  accent. She's got to actually adapt on
• 26:21
  the spur of the moment. So if it's mannered, I'm not
• 26:24
  sure she was being given the the the most help.
• 26:27
  But why is it that she can't do a normal accent but Ben comes
• 26:30
  along at the end of the season with a full blown cockney
• 26:33
  accent? Well, that's the north-south
• 26:34
  divide, isn't it? But, and also her character's
• 26:39
  not helped by the whole, well, it must be Whipsnades too, kind
• 26:42
  of. Yeah, that was no, come on.
• 26:44
  I mean, I know you and Mills are so mean about Mill, and I'm sure
• 26:48
  the pair of you are mean about Dodo as well.
• 26:50
  I love the enthusiasm. There are so many grumpy Doctor
• 26:54
  Who companions. I like someone who just wants to
• 26:56
  dash out and have an adventure. I don't see the problem.
• 26:59
  Yes, I know there isn't any nuance.
• 27:01
  There's no subtlety of characterization and the
• 27:03
  performances for both characters can be very theatrical.
• 27:08
  And she even says, I watched her myth makers the other day and
• 27:11
  she goes, I was basically aiming for theatre, not TV.
• 27:14
  But I do think she's quite jolly.
• 27:19
  She seems to me woefully out of her depth, and it's partly that
• 27:24
  Hartnell is still top of his game here.
• 27:28
  Peter Purvis is obviously an absolute pro and they're working
• 27:31
  very well together. She just seems in a in a, like
• 27:35
  she's in a different. What changes come the
• 27:37
  gunfighters then? Because I feel as if they're
• 27:38
  really In Sync in that story. They really are In Sync in that
• 27:41
  story. The.
• 27:42
  Wild. West, I think she's written
• 27:44
  better in the gunfighters part of many of the else.
• 27:48
  You should talk to Fraser Gregory, you know.
• 27:50
  So one of the things that I wish they'd done.
• 27:53
  Yes. This guy who gets.
• 27:55
  Is giving them trousers. Do not like that.
• 27:59
  I like seeing their legs actually, you know, we need.
• 28:01
  To talk about the monoid design, but.
• 28:03
  We also need to talk about this old man centrist as your
• 28:07
  commander of Galactic law, James.
• 28:10
  Well, he's come from the same drama school as Jackie Lane in
• 28:12
  this story, hasn't he? Yes, he sort of declaims
• 28:17
  everything, doesn't he? In a rather pathetic sort of a
• 28:20
  way. Sorry, what are you going to say
• 28:22
  about the designs? Like, he's the kind of actor the
• 28:24
  RSC get to play. You know, Shylock has a friend
• 28:27
  in the Merchant who's only in one scene, and he's like, oh,
• 28:31
  we've got to find a part for him, but he can be Shylock's
• 28:33
  friend. I was going to say there's an
• 28:39
  opportunity here to link the first episode to the final
• 28:46
  episode, and there could have been a bit more of that, because
• 28:49
  I do think it feels very much like two different productions
• 28:52
  with two completely different casts.
• 28:54
  But if the miniaturized man had been reformed in the final
• 28:58
  episode, we could have had some. Nice.
• 28:59
  Oh my God. He looks straight at the camera.
• 29:03
  Then our responsibilities cannot be taken lightly.
• 29:08
  Now I love these perspectives. The perspective.
• 29:11
  So I was gonna say that I don't think that the acting in the
• 29:13
  scene is great. I don't think.
• 29:14
  Who cares who's looking at that? There's a steel sky there,
• 29:17
  there. Is a steel sky.
• 29:18
  I think the set is it. Stretches way back into the.
• 29:21
  Distance scale isn't there. Yes, plus these fabulous mob mop
• 29:25
  topped. What do we think of the monoid?
• 29:27
  Well, I mean, they're patently absurd.
• 29:29
  I mean, look at their stupid little feet.
• 29:32
  Have they got claws? I can't quite tell.
• 29:34
  They're just flappy, flappy bits.
• 29:37
  That miniaturization effect, that's good.
• 29:39
  It's. Not too bad, is it?
• 29:40
  There he. Goes.
• 29:41
  It's better than invisible. Invisible enemy?
• 29:43
  They're gonna do exactly the same effect, just not as well.
• 29:46
  Good and not between two monoids like that and the man gets to
• 29:50
  come in in the same shot. Yeah, you know.
• 29:54
  No, they look absurd, but I think I've been seduced by
• 29:57
  Jacqueline Rayner and her love for the monoids because she
• 30:01
  keeps bringing them in in wilderness years, books and
• 30:04
  audios and makes them very funny indeed.
• 30:07
  So I sort of forget how shit they are in the Ark.
• 30:11
  But in terms of the the eyeball in the mouth effect, I think
• 30:17
  that's quite a good idea. Do that.
• 30:19
  I mean, I'm someone who's used to a mouthful, but for a ball of
• 30:23
  an eyeball around in my mouth, that would be tough, right?
• 30:28
  There, we've got the elephant. Clara the elephant.
• 30:32
  Did you hear the story about the elephant?
• 30:34
  I didn't hear. The poor director tells the
• 30:36
  story about God. You see ejaculate now?
• 30:39
  Yeah, look at him then. That is, you're right, there's a
• 30:42
  very deliberate pullback from the elephant there that tricks
• 30:44
  you into thinking this is stock footage and then and.
• 30:46
  Then look at this beautiful shot as they go over to.
• 30:50
  It's that it's really good. It's well, do you know what it's
• 30:54
  doing? You know that flesh and stone,
• 30:56
  that Moffett two passer where they had the the jungle in the
• 30:59
  middle of the spaceship? Yeah.
• 31:00
  It's that. It's that in the 60s, Yeah.
• 31:04
  That's what I mean by ambitious. Unambitious in the 70s, yeah.
• 31:08
  Everything gets smaller in the 70s, doesn't it?
• 31:10
  Everything gets. Smaller and with colour as well.
• 31:12
  Everything gets a bit uglier as well.
• 31:13
  I think that's, I think that is right and I think you can get
• 31:15
  away because a lot of this set is just shadows straight away in
• 31:19
  colour. You've got.
• 31:20
  You've got a problem with. But you know, I would venture
• 31:23
  that this jungle is more convincing than, say, the one in
• 31:25
  Kinder. Oh well, yeah, you've chosen a
• 31:31
  low bar to. Not quite as good as the one in
• 31:35
  Creature from the. Pit.
• 31:36
  Well, so I was going to say creature from the pit is kind of
• 31:38
  the. That's the stand.
• 31:40
  Up the the stand up jungle set. Sweaty mist hovering.
• 31:45
  And I, I never quite understood the adulation for Planet of
• 31:49
  Evil, which looks good because it's on film, but as soon as
• 31:52
  it's in studio, I don't think it's, I don't think it's a great
• 31:55
  jungle set. It's fine.
• 31:58
  They should have done what the designer did, you know, gone out
• 32:00
  into the garden and planted loads of flowers and just shot
• 32:03
  it out in his backyard. It would have been more
• 32:05
  convincing there. What what this has got over
• 32:08
  Kinder is that they've they've dressed the floor as well and it
• 32:11
  seems such an obvious thing, but you can't see the studio floors.
• 32:14
  You see, and, and of course, you could have a, a backdrop here
• 32:18
  because there's a steel sky. Yeah, it's the, the, the title
• 32:21
  of the bloody episode. Look at this pullback now.
• 32:24
  I mean, he must be in the gantry there or something.
• 32:26
  They've certainly got kind of cameras high up and or, or
• 32:29
  cranes that might. No, I think you're probably
• 32:31
  right. It's Gantry.
• 32:34
  I love it when Doug Doe says like, what was it?
• 32:36
  Oh, dodo, please stop crying. She goes, no, the North is
• 32:39
  running. She goes, Oh my God, she's she's
• 32:43
  kind of terrible, but I do find her amusing.
• 32:47
  There you go. See what you're playing at
• 32:48
  Crusades you. Are Oh, she went a bit northern
• 32:52
  there. Hartnell is on forming.
• 32:55
  This isn't. He he's, he's in full control.
• 32:58
  When he goes down to the planet in Part 4 and speaks sort of
• 33:01
  refusions and he's like, hello, gentlemen, You know, brushing
• 33:05
  his lapels is just great. I couldn't even send you if I
• 33:09
  wanted to. That's a bit of an insult to
• 33:12
  Dodo, I think. I see.
• 33:14
  I don't think the problem people have with Dodo is to do with her
• 33:18
  enthusiasm though. Sometimes her enthusiasm is is
• 33:22
  Oculus. Makes no sense.
• 33:24
  James, I'll. Have a bash OK.
• 33:28
  What's that for? Well, you were.
• 33:31
  That's the gun for us. Can you play the piano?
• 33:33
  I'll have a bash. I hope the piano knows the knows
• 33:36
  the notes look. At the size of this.
• 33:39
  Big set and it's got I'd love the little trolley things that.
• 33:42
  Are do you see the kids playing as well at the front?
• 33:44
  Yeah. So it feels like an actual
• 33:45
  society. What do you think of the the
• 33:50
  sign language? Again, it's it, it's an attempt
• 33:55
  to show some something. It's, it's a broader scope.
• 34:00
  It's ambitious. She's got that massive drawing
• 34:06
  there of the statue. So what?
• 34:10
  So we know exactly what it's going to look like, right?
• 34:12
  The Doctor has a good look at it later and goes, ah yes, you
• 34:15
  know. I think I just love that this
• 34:16
  wants to be an episode of Out of the Unknown or something and it
• 34:20
  and it's actually a little bit but.
• 34:24
  And it is trapped. It's trapped in the four part
• 34:26
  Doctor Who structure, although like you said, they do use that
• 34:31
  imaginatively. And they're, and they're wearing
• 34:35
  costumes which. Oh, that man's a bit like Peter
• 34:38
  Capaldi. When he smiles, it's ghoulish.
• 34:40
  What? Are you saying about Peter
• 34:42
  Capaldi's smile? Oh, he looks like a cadaver when
• 34:45
  he smiles. It's absolutely terrifying.
• 34:48
  Didn't know that one where he became a zombie coming out of
• 34:51
  the water at the end the cliffhanger, yes.
• 34:54
  I couldn't tell the difference between that and a normal shot
• 34:56
  of him. Good grief.
• 34:59
  So he being very rude now? He's always just told Dodo he's
• 35:04
  she's most irritating. I think the problem with Dodo is
• 35:08
  what she's meant to be versus what she is.
• 35:11
  It's a bit like the ADRIC problem, which is that he was
• 35:15
  conceived as an artful Dodger in inverted commas type and he
• 35:19
  comes out as the worst possible irritating nerd.
• 35:23
  And Dodo is meant to be hip London, and you only have to see
• 35:29
  how good Polly is to see how far wrong they've gone.
• 35:32
  Although I did watch the War Machines the other day.
• 35:36
  Right, And because Fraser was arguing.
• 35:38
  Oh, dodo, you know, since when has she ever shown any interest
• 35:41
  in going clubbing? Yeah, because she doesn't get
• 35:43
  any stories on modern day earth until.
• 35:45
  The war machines. She could have been living it up
• 35:48
  her whole childhood for a. Week though, you take you, she
• 35:51
  goes to a club and she gets a headache and has to go home.
• 35:53
  She's one of the She's then she's those people who go to
• 35:57
  drag, drags you to a club and then half an hour in goes just
• 36:00
  got a bit of a headache. That's me, James, right?
• 36:03
  OK, I'll say. Do you serve coffee here?
• 36:05
  No. Oh, I'm going over.
• 36:06
  There is this. Is this why you identify with
• 36:08
  dodo then? Do you think maybe deep down you
• 36:11
  are a bit of a dodo? What?
• 36:12
  Loud, obnoxious, brash. Not happy until I've exposed
• 36:18
  everyone's secrets? Yes, I'm very much dodo.
• 36:20
  OK, yes. You like playing games as well,
• 36:24
  don't you? She's.
• 36:25
  She's really stupid like me as well.
• 36:28
  You know, we've got a lot in common.
• 36:30
  Unlike male, I've got much enthusiasm.
• 36:33
  Yeah, I think I can. It's a lot of like, the personal
• 36:36
  bias. Look at this.
• 36:38
  She's holding her bloody nose. Only in the 60s do they hold
• 36:41
  people's noses to stop them from sneezing.
• 36:43
  This. Is quite, quite an extended
• 36:45
  clinch, isn't it? Clinch.
• 36:48
  Bit of a clinch, they're very close to each other.
• 36:51
  Well, yes, I don't think there's any romantic interest between
• 36:54
  Stephen and Dodo, is there? No, I think it's.
• 36:59
  I think it's, I think it's, it's more Big Brotherly, isn't it,
• 37:04
  He? Looked like he was leaning into
• 37:06
  Kisser. Then be quiet, both of you.
• 37:12
  I, I think they're quite a nice three, though are at their best.
• 37:16
  I think they work really well. I think they work well in the
• 37:19
  gun fighters. I think they work well in the
• 37:20
  Savages as well. The toy maker.
• 37:24
  I don't think anyone's characterised well in that,
• 37:25
  unfortunately. Obviously the gunfire is Pervis
• 37:31
  man. He's just, he just understands
• 37:33
  everything that is needed of him.
• 37:36
  And despite the fact that he is in one genre to another, you
• 37:41
  know, very diverse genres from one story to another, look at
• 37:45
  that. It's all a spaceship, James.
• 37:49
  It's a clever shot as well it it almost looks like a still, but
• 37:53
  it's got moving foliage in front of it so it must be a a model.
• 37:57
  That's so clear I didn't even see any of them.
• 37:59
  That's that is that that is also great.
• 38:03
  They're they're very, very well hidden in plain sight in that,
• 38:06
  in that. And just watch how the camera
• 38:11
  just doesn't. Stop.
• 38:12
  It's a really well directed. It doesn't.
• 38:14
  Stop moving. Yeah, you go and watch any mid
• 38:17
  70s story. The camera is static all the
• 38:20
  time. No, it's constantly moving in
• 38:22
  this and it adds to the the sense of scale.
• 38:27
  It draws you into the story, I think.
• 38:30
  He's so great. Listen.
• 38:31
  Oh, CentOS, is that his name? I keep calling him the centrist.
• 38:35
  And like he does things like that where he walks off in One
• 38:38
  Direction then and then changes his mind.
• 38:41
  Did he just forget where he was going?
• 38:43
  I think the answer is probably. The more noise over there OK
• 38:47
  this. Way.
• 38:48
  And he sort of waves his hands. It's sort of like interpretive
• 38:51
  dance, the way he does it. Now don't smile.
• 38:53
  You look like Peter Caldy. Oh yes indeed, he's so jolly
• 38:58
  until he starts getting sick. Here we go.
• 39:02
  I mean, I think for the kids, this is a big idea, the end of
• 39:06
  the earth. Do you think they pulled it off
• 39:11
  better in this with sort of the smoke or in the end of the world
• 39:14
  with all that sort of CGI fire? Oh, in this?
• 39:18
  I didn't expect you to say that. There, I don't really remember
• 39:21
  the end of the world. I think that bits the Isle of
• 39:23
  Wight James. Oh no, that's that's not, that's
• 39:28
  Runaway Bride. The origin of the monoids is
• 39:31
  obscure. Yes, the origin of that boom
• 39:35
  mark I just saw is not. I did see the camera bump into
• 39:40
  something as well. So there is the occasional
• 39:43
  moment of this is being made in a rush.
• 39:46
  I can't believe the BBC fired the director of this.
• 39:51
  So he never did another BBC production again, and he found
• 39:54
  out just before he was about to direct episode 4.
• 39:58
  Now there are two. So here's two issues where we
• 40:01
  can see a slight reluctance to to properly kind of write this
• 40:06
  story with the the the background it probably needs.
• 40:10
  So the the background, the the origins of the Maloids is
• 40:13
  obscure, full stop. That's the Maloids dealt with.
• 40:15
  I think Ericsson deals with that in the book and actually gives
• 40:18
  him a bit more of a back story. And then do you?
• 40:21
  Recall what that was? I was about 10 when I read it.
• 40:25
  I think I can be forgiven for for not remembering.
• 40:28
  It's me I've recently heard, you know, extracts of your 10 year
• 40:31
  old diary, OK. And you were intelligent man
• 40:34
  back then. Go on.
• 40:35
  Anyway, sorry. The other then we've got this
• 40:39
  this whole thing with refuses and they are aware of the
• 40:41
  refusians, but how they're worried about possibly
• 40:45
  refusions. Could have been there for
• 40:47
  another What's 10 years? It's a long.
• 40:49
  Long time. How, how are they aware that
• 40:52
  there are people there? Why are they?
• 40:54
  Yeah, that that there are some questions here.
• 40:58
  Nero, the Trojan Wars, the Daleks, My God, it's not the
• 41:02
  program guide, but that's. That's also a really interesting
• 41:09
  perspective, isn't it? To have the dialects in that you
• 41:11
  know. All in the.
• 41:11
  Past, it's all in the past because we used to, we used to
• 41:15
  darting between historicals and and and the future and the
• 41:19
  dialects, of course, is the future and some, but suddenly
• 41:21
  we're we're given a perspective where the dialects, that's all.
• 41:24
  Thing Nicholas Briggs saying around at this point he'd have
• 41:27
  been going now in the 58th segment at the time.
• 41:29
  The Daleks are back, baby. When are we going?
• 41:34
  700 years, I said 70 years. Sorry, 700 years.
• 41:37
  So they know about a planet that's 700 light years away.
• 41:41
  So, but. And they know about the the the
• 41:43
  inhabitants of that planet. What?
• 41:46
  Yeah. Audio, audio, Space Research.
• 41:49
  That's the reason what's. That.
• 41:53
  Audio Space Research, yes. That yes, I believe that's what
• 42:01
  Terrace Dix calls covering it with a line.
• 42:03
  Covering it with a not very good line it doesn't make.
• 42:10
  Any sense? Oh, the soonest centrist falls
• 42:13
  I'll the better. This scene is very exposition
• 42:16
  heavy and and it would be dreadful if the camera wasn't so
• 42:23
  in constant motion and, and actually they've the ACT has
• 42:26
  been very well directed to to move with it.
• 42:29
  I love also that we get the the insert of the of the rows of
• 42:33
  trays. So we show as well as tell.
• 42:36
  We did a lot of telling, but we are doing some showing as well.
• 42:38
  I really love the scale of all this, so I just think the
• 42:42
  ambition in a design is wonderful.
• 42:46
  They're not big studios that they're working.
• 42:48
  No, they've, they've managed to make it look.
• 42:50
  And how many people have they packed into that?
• 42:54
  I mean, I even love the consoles.
• 42:56
  There, he's got a webcam. A bit more interesting than the
• 42:58
  spinning reels that you get in the 70s.
• 43:03
  There's real thought gone into making this look.
• 43:08
  Oh, I love this. Don't you love it?
• 43:10
  Is this where we see just the feet of the statue?
• 43:12
  That's all you get. It's a bit like the wheels that
• 43:16
  you see in. Time.
• 43:17
  Yes, you. Know, there we go.
• 43:19
  Just the legs, actually, you know, that's not bad.
• 43:23
  Those feet look nicer than mine. I mean, it's big enough look
• 43:27
  that she has to go up to another level.
• 43:29
  And the foot is when? What happened to those feet,
• 43:32
  James? What other production could
• 43:35
  possibly use those giants? Design, isn't it?
• 43:38
  I bet it turned up in Gulliver's Travels or something like that.
• 43:41
  Probably. Yeah, Barry Letts says.
• 43:43
  Like, have you got those giant feet around?
• 43:46
  Well, they ended up on John Perth.
• 43:49
  Look at the perspective vet they've literally got.
• 43:51
  Is that an actual? That's a backdrop, isn't it?
• 43:55
  It's not a a shuttle craft. Yeah, but they've draw.
• 43:59
  It's draw. It's drawn onto a back.
• 44:01
  Looks great. And here we go.
• 44:03
  Look, we're going all the way through this set across with a
• 44:07
  moving vehicle. Oh oh.
• 44:11
  No. Yes, the Doctor goes.
• 44:14
  Hang on, I've got this War of the Worlds book here.
• 44:17
  I've heard about this before. Oh, centrist?
• 44:20
  No, at least he fell on that. Accomplishment, say.
• 44:26
  Could. I could I just sit down to do
• 44:29
  this for I'll? Be calling him Tetris next.
• 44:33
  The problem is because of his performance up until this point,
• 44:36
  it's not clear whether he's he's he's acting or just just.
• 44:43
  Stay away. Dodo once again reading the
• 44:50
  room. Yeah, nothing to worry about
• 44:52
  here. No one's been here for years,
• 44:54
  you silly cow. God's sakes.
• 44:57
  Yeah, now I feel like the Monos look quite shocked, but then
• 45:00
  that is the one expression that they have, so you know I won't
• 45:04
  be too mean about them. This man is that Zentos there
• 45:09
  between them, the younger man. Oh well, they're all called
• 45:12
  Zentos. I thought you're the old man.
• 45:14
  But Zentos? I think he's Centrus.
• 45:15
  Centrus and Zentos. It's from the Christianshipnall
• 45:18
  space name. Of course dictionary in the
• 45:20
  future everyone has the same 4 letters.
• 45:24
  There's usually AZ in there somewhere, you know, I do you
• 45:28
  think this fella, the the young, the young man who's always very
• 45:32
  angry, Yes. Oh, he's given an appropriate
• 45:34
  amount passion in his performance.
• 45:36
  He is. Yeah, Oh, that haircut.
• 45:39
  God. Nice to know that the bowler
• 45:43
  haircut has reached into the 57th segment of time.
• 45:46
  I think they're asking for trouble giving their their
• 45:49
  statue a bowler haircut to be honest.
• 45:51
  That's probably where the Moy's got the idea from.
• 45:54
  Yeah. So 700 years to build that
• 45:57
  statue, Yeah. That's a lot of time to build a.
• 45:59
  Statue. So how often would you put in
• 46:01
  another block? Every 50 years or so.
• 46:06
  It does. I mean the statue, the the the
• 46:08
  blueprints don't scream over design, do they?
• 46:11
  It's not a a very. I think of the great buildings
• 46:13
  around the world. You know they weren't done.
• 46:15
  I mean, I know they weren't done in seven. 100 years. 700 years.
• 46:17
  But they weren't done like overnight, were they?
• 46:19
  They weren't. I mean many of them last 700
• 46:22
  years. Have you seen the Sagrada
• 46:23
  Familia? I mean they've.
• 46:24
  That has taken 700 years. Yeah, that is true.
• 46:27
  I'm gonna. I'm gonna.
• 46:28
  Now this is controversial, but I I think the Sagrada Familia is a
• 46:33
  slightly more interesting sculpt than the the statue is.
• 46:39
  Outrageous. Where did your artistic
• 46:43
  education come from? However, I do think that that
• 46:47
  shot of the earth they're going past the window was very tasty.
• 46:51
  Very tasty. I think there's only one Zentos.
• 46:53
  I think you're making it. I think the commander doesn't
• 46:55
  even have a name, but could be wrong.
• 46:58
  No, I didn't realise Tristram Carey was doing the music for
• 47:01
  this. It's that sort of music.
• 47:03
  Concrete isn't. It music.
• 47:04
  Concrete. What does that mean?
• 47:08
  Music concrete is a term that develops alongside various
• 47:13
  French composers, as the name suggests, particularly in the
• 47:16
  1950s and 60s, where they're experimenting with electronic
• 47:20
  ways of creating sound and challenging the very idea of
• 47:25
  what music was. And so, I mean, so you get
• 47:29
  composers like Stockhausen very famously produced some of the
• 47:35
  earliest kind of synthesized works, and they sound very odd
• 47:38
  to us now. Not, not, not terribly
• 47:41
  successful because they're limited by the technology of the
• 47:45
  time, but they broke ground in terms of what you could do with
• 47:49
  electronic sound and in terms of what you could do with recorded
• 47:51
  material. I think the music concrete.
• 47:54
  Did you say that's how you say it?
• 47:56
  I think that's really effective ambient music.
• 48:00
  It's really, really good. But you have to bear in mind
• 48:02
  that this is with this is the radiophonic workshop building on
• 48:05
  those those pioneers of music in the kind of late 40s, fifties,
• 48:09
  and actually by 1963 when they're doing Doctor Who, the
• 48:14
  technology has grown with with the with the experiments.
• 48:18
  I can think of no more the atmospheric moment in 60s Doctor
• 48:23
  Who. Do you remember when you that
• 48:25
  pan in on the City in the Daleks?
• 48:27
  I do and it goes bomb. It's really creepy music and the
• 48:32
  mist is rolling in. Fabulous.
• 48:34
  It's not the same people that did the music for the Web
• 48:37
  Planet, is it? Well, they reuse some of the
• 48:39
  same tracks in the web planet, don't.
• 48:41
  They yeah, that's that's is that.
• 48:45
  That's not Trish from Carrie, though.
• 48:45
  Isn't it? No, it's not.
• 48:46
  They use, they use stock music in the web.
• 48:48
  I mean I. Think it's an orchestra isn't
• 48:51
  it? Like they use lots of strings.
• 48:53
  When they when they yes. And when they use stock music.
• 48:57
  Because. Because before Delia Derbyshire
• 49:00
  was employed to write the Doctor Who theme, it was Verity Lambert
• 49:04
  went to some of the kind of best known writers of electronic
• 49:12
  music of the time Just couldn't afford them, which is why you
• 49:15
  end up with the Radio Phonic Workshop.
• 49:17
  But my personal view is that Tristan Carey's work for early
• 49:20
  Doctor Who stands alongside the respected electronic
• 49:25
  compositions of the early 60s as every bit as good as that.
• 49:32
  So when Dudley comes in, then, I mean, he's as early as the
• 49:35
  chase. He is, I don't think.
• 49:38
  He's doing that sort of jazzy music.
• 49:39
  Yeah, I don't think the chase is a very disciplined score and it
• 49:42
  doesn't. Feel more specific when Dudley's
• 49:44
  doing it, doesn't it? It feels sort of more unique to
• 49:46
  the story each time. The wonderful thing about Dudley
• 49:49
  Simpson is that he gets to work out how to write music for
• 49:51
  Doctor Who by doing it, and his his stuff gets better the more
• 49:56
  he does. He certainly then finds a
• 49:59
  formula and arguably it becomes repetitive, but but there's a
• 50:04
  there's a period where Dudley Simpson is but is also being
• 50:07
  wildly experimental. Mid Trout and yeah, the Ice
• 50:10
  Warriors. Beautiful school.
• 50:12
  Yeah, and the sees of death. A crazy piano in that.
• 50:16
  Well look, before this becomes the Doctor Who Music Podcast, I
• 50:20
  suppose we better skip on into episode 2.
• 50:22
  I guess we should.