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58. Listening to the Field: Family Constellations & Ancestral Wisdom with Jill Purce · Constellations and all that...

• 0:00
  Tracy Cartwright: Kia ora everyone, and welcome to Constellations and all that today.
• 0:05
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, I'm so excited.
• 0:06
  Tracy Cartwright: I have the pleasure of chatting with Jill Purce, who is someone that I have admired from a distance for a very long time, and I'm so excited to have you here on Constellations and all that.
• 0:17
  Tracy Cartwright: Welcome, Jill.
• 0:19
  Jill Purce: Oh, it's great pleasure to be whizzing around the world to Australia, or at least underneath.
• 0:24
  Jill Purce: We always think of Australia being underneath us.
• 0:27
  Tracy Cartwright: Well, I'm not in Australia.
• 0:29
  Tracy Cartwright: I'm in New Zealand.
• 0:30
  Jill Purce: Oh, you are in New Zealand.
• 0:31
  Jill Purce: Well, you're all, yeah, but you are even beyond,
• 0:33
  Tracy Cartwright: we're often mistaken as a little bit like the States and Canada, right?
• 0:38
  Tracy Cartwright: It uh, people, well, I used to, I
• 0:39
  Jill Purce: used to have a New Zealand assistant actually, and my son Merlin was just there.
• 0:43
  Jill Purce: And in fact, I think you saw him.
• 0:45
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes, I did.
• 0:46
  Tracy Cartwright: It was amazing.
• 0:47
  Tracy Cartwright: It was amazing.
• 0:48
  Tracy Cartwright: Ah, so you've had a bit of a connection with New Zealand.
• 0:51
  Jill Purce: Oh, definitely.
• 0:52
  Tracy Cartwright: I love New Zealand.
• 0:53
  Tracy Cartwright: Fantastic.
• 0:55
  Tracy Cartwright: Well, I'd love for you to introduce yourself to the audience, to the listeners and the viewers.
• 1:00
  Tracy Cartwright: Just share a little bit about yourself.
• 1:01
  Tracy Cartwright: For those who don't already know you.
• 1:03
  Jill Purce: Well, I've been working with a voice since the early 1970s, and Rupert, my husband, Rupert Shel Drag always says I should never tell anybody, as it seems to be so long ago.
• 1:15
  Jill Purce: And it is, and I've been doing, I've been doing family Constellations, um, for over 25 years and actually it started, it's interesting.
• 1:26
  Jill Purce: I was teaching in Munich in Germany in the early 1980s, and, um, the woman organizing my workshop said, oh, that's so interesting.
• 1:35
  Jill Purce: Do you know the work of Bert Hellinger?
• 1:37
  Jill Purce: Because your work is so similar.
• 1:38
  Jill Purce: And I didn't.
• 1:39
  Jill Purce: And so I started doing the family work quite independently of him, and later became very friendly with him because he used to visit us in, in London whenever he came to England.
• 1:50
  Jill Purce: He used my husband, Rupert Child's theory for, um, the knowing field, his morphic resonance.
• 1:58
  Jill Purce: So I started doing voice workshop as, um, as I said very early on.
• 2:02
  Jill Purce: And then I realized that I started working with the ancestors and honoring the ancestors, having people honor their ancestors.
• 2:09
  Jill Purce: And then I, I found that people's lives changed out of all recognition just by honoring their ancestors.
• 2:16
  Jill Purce: So then I became more specific and it led me to do.
• 2:20
  Jill Purce: Work with family and ancestors, but I do it ceremonially and I do it with sound, so I do it very differently.
• 2:25
  Tracy Cartwright: Fantastic.
• 2:27
  Tracy Cartwright: That's what I, I think I love about this work too, though.
• 2:30
  Tracy Cartwright: It's not like, do you have to do it this way?
• 2:32
  Tracy Cartwright: And that's the only way to do it is that you know, you have, that you're able to bring in your other amazing gifts with it.
• 2:39
  Tracy Cartwright: So.
• 2:40
  Tracy Cartwright: And I had the pleasure of being, I'm with you the other weekend with a Mongolian overtone, um, chanting course that you ran online, which was amazing.
• 2:50
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 2:50
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 2:51
  Tracy Cartwright: I've been really practicing that and noticing how much, um, freer my body is feeling in that space.
• 2:58
  Tracy Cartwright: As well.
• 2:58
  Tracy Cartwright: That's wonderful.
• 2:59
  Jill Purce: That's wonderful.
• 3:00
  Jill Purce: Yeah.
• 3:00
  Jill Purce: Sound is amazing and the voice is astonishing.
• 3:04
  Jill Purce: And it's our, it's our main tool.
• 3:05
  Jill Purce: I think, you know, we don't have to carry anything around on a plane, have an extra seat for it.
• 3:10
  Jill Purce: We have, we carry it around all the time and it's really the key to a transformation being present and everything as soon as we start using it.
• 3:19
  Jill Purce: Yeah.
• 3:19
  Jill Purce: What got you interested in in Sound?
• 3:23
  Jill Purce: I became interested in how form comes into being because I was very sure that we had absolutely no idea about the coming into being a form, and so I started work with.
• 3:35
  Jill Purce: And in fact, I did my thesis at University on the spiral, uh, in, in, um, as a, as an image of growth in nature.
• 3:45
  Jill Purce: The Fibonacci Spiral.
• 3:46
  Jill Purce: That's one of many.
• 3:48
  Jill Purce: Yeah.
• 3:48
  Jill Purce: Yeah.
• 3:49
  Jill Purce: And, uh, it's really the Journey of the Soul, which was my subtitle of the book I later wrote.
• 3:54
  Jill Purce: And then, um, so I was very interested in how, um, form one of the ways that forms comes into being is when you have an.
• 4:02
  Jill Purce: And water impulse going forward.
• 4:04
  Jill Purce: And then it meets a resistance and then it turns around into eds, which then become, uh, I, uh, separate from.
• 4:13
  Jill Purce: And so that's one way that form comes into being.
• 4:15
  Jill Purce: And then I became very interested in the work of.
• 4:18
  Jill Purce: People like Hanni, Faraday, Leonardo was the first person to study it.
• 4:24
  Jill Purce: Um, what happens when you vibrate, um, liquids of different viscosities?
• 4:29
  Jill Purce: Very fine powders like a podium, powder, the spore of the club, moss, anything with formlessness when you vibrate it with sound.
• 4:37
  Jill Purce: You, you immediately see the patterns of that you see around you in nature.
• 4:42
  Jill Purce: So that's really, I realize sound and resonance was, was the interface between the one, the spirit, nature, whatever, energy and, and the material world.
• 4:53
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 4:53
  Tracy Cartwright: When you put it like that, absolutely.
• 4:56
  Tracy Cartwright: I think sometimes there's two different sides of things, right?
• 4:59
  Tracy Cartwright: We are, we're, we're encouraged, we're told to be quiet, just go within and not make, you know, be in silence.
• 5:07
  Tracy Cartwright: Which is good for some things, but in society there's a lot of that going on that isn't always healthy.
• 5:13
  Tracy Cartwright: Crikey, the other one's just gone right outta my head.
• 5:15
  Tracy Cartwright: It'll come back.
• 5:16
  Tracy Cartwright: I had one making a lot of noise.
• 5:19
  Tracy Cartwright: Very clear.
• 5:20
  Tracy Cartwright: One there that was making some noise.
• 5:22
  Tracy Cartwright: Absolutely.
• 5:23
  Tracy Cartwright: How did you come to to, to actually putting that together with constellations, with your sound work?
• 5:29
  Tracy Cartwright: How did that It was perform organically.
• 5:31
  Jill Purce: Yes.
• 5:32
  Jill Purce: It was very organic.
• 5:32
  Jill Purce: It was.
• 5:33
  Jill Purce: It was, as I mentioned, it was this process of, I started to have people honor their ancestors going back in a very generalized way because I realized that ancestors have no agency unless.
• 5:47
  Jill Purce: Living, acknowledge them.
• 5:48
  Jill Purce: And that's really important.
• 5:49
  Jill Purce: And in fact, in the armistice, you know, the, the commemoration of the war dead in this country we have, um, we say the societal words are, we will remember you.
• 5:59
  Jill Purce: So somehow we know that the dead need a remembering.
• 6:03
  Jill Purce: And so I started doing ceremonies to honor the ancestors for people to go back.
• 6:09
  Jill Purce: And very specifically just the, the main female lines, the main.
• 6:13
  Jill Purce: Male lines, not, not all the ones that you've got illustrated behind you, which are, I mean, we have thousands of ancestors, but just the main line, you know, the mother, the mother's mother, the mother's mother's mother, because every woman has had the next one in her belly, which is amazing.
• 6:31
  Jill Purce: And then the same with the male's line, which is a little trickier because you know, you never quite know what happened on the way.
• 6:36
  Jill Purce: And, um, and I just found that it had the most extraordinary effect on people's lives.
• 6:41
  Jill Purce: And so then I started doing.
• 6:43
  Jill Purce: It's I developing it in a way where I was working much more specifically to find out what had been forgotten, what the interruptions were, because I found that any kind of interruption, um, left a kind of unfinished business.
• 6:58
  Jill Purce: So, uh, early death, suicides, abortions, addictions, immigrations injustices, anything societally inappropriate people who'd been forgotten, things that hadn't been said.
• 7:09
  Jill Purce: Uh, immigration.
• 7:11
  Jill Purce: So many different things cause a kind of trauma in the field and that for that trauma in the field just goes on down through the generations and less than living at some point interferes and changes it and, and remembers what's been forgotten or, or who's been forgotten or acknowledges those who've been, who've abused you.
• 7:33
  Jill Purce: You know, it's counter.
• 7:34
  Jill Purce: Intuitive very often and um, and then everything changes.
• 7:40
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 7:40
  Tracy Cartwright: Fantastic.
• 7:42
  Tracy Cartwright: So how do you use it?
• 7:43
  Tracy Cartwright: How do you use the sound?
• 7:45
  Tracy Cartwright: Is there a moment?
• 7:46
  Tracy Cartwright: Is there throughout the whole work.
• 7:50
  Jill Purce: Well, how I use it is, um, so for example, I have, it's very ceremonial.
• 7:56
  Jill Purce: I have the person I choose if I'm working face to face, and I, and I, I, online, I've miniaturized it, so it's very similar, but face to face, I choose the person to work next, and I work well face to face.
• 8:08
  Jill Purce: I work with everybody in turn, but I choose them so they never know when they're going to work, which I find much more interesting.
• 8:15
  Jill Purce: So I bring them into the center of the group.
• 8:17
  Jill Purce: The group is in a circle.
• 8:19
  Jill Purce: Surrounding the group, I bring them into the center and I have a formulaic exchange.
• 8:23
  Jill Purce: I say, how are you hurting?
• 8:25
  Jill Purce: And then they will say in one sentence, and it could be anything from something emotional like Nobody loves me or my children are, you know, separated from me, or the I estranged, whatever, or my elbow hurts, or I want.
• 8:41
  Jill Purce: Something.
• 8:41
  Jill Purce: I want a relationship.
• 8:43
  Jill Purce: I want a child.
• 8:44
  Jill Purce: So they can, they can also articulate something that they want and then I say, are you willing to be healed?
• 8:49
  Jill Purce: And they say Yes.
• 8:50
  Jill Purce: And then I. Then I, they go around the group and um, I have a kind of ceremonial step, which is a kind of way that the Native Americans invoked their ancestors.
• 9:02
  Jill Purce: They go around, acknowledge the group as the healing vessel.
• 9:05
  Jill Purce: They're all standing when we are chanting.
• 9:08
  Jill Purce: And then when they get back to where they started, the group responds as the healing vessel the other way.
• 9:13
  Jill Purce: And then when they come back to the beginning, they choose people.
• 9:18
  Jill Purce: Well in that moment, they choose the people to be their family members, their mother, the father, brother, sisters, just.
• 9:24
  Jill Purce: And then they line them up.
• 9:26
  Jill Purce: And then I, I, again, I have a ceremonial moment when I ask them if it's their family and then they, I have what I call the unwinding a family history when they drag their whole family around.
• 9:37
  Jill Purce: When we're chanting again, we cht a mantra and then they place them.
• 9:42
  Jill Purce: Oh, well then they lie down.
• 9:43
  Jill Purce: Sorry, I forgot they lie down.
• 9:45
  Jill Purce: And I use sage and holy water and, um.
• 9:49
  Jill Purce: Rattles all kinds of things, and they sit up and then I have them address each person in turn.
• 9:55
  Jill Purce: So you are my mother and her name, and then only the interruptions are they.
• 10:01
  Jill Purce: So it's very brief, but they just talk about.
• 10:05
  Jill Purce: The interruptions.
• 10:06
  Jill Purce: And these aren't the things they necessarily know about their parents because they, with their parents, they, they know if they were loved or not, or, or loved or not, or loved more or less than their siblings.
• 10:17
  Jill Purce: And that's usually often it.
• 10:19
  Jill Purce: So I, I have them say, you know, you left, you immigrated when you were three.
• 10:24
  Jill Purce: You had a brother who fell down, unwell, whatever it was, and then you, you are my father James, and then the same, and then you are my brother, blah, blah, blah.
• 10:32
  Jill Purce: And so they address each person in turn.
• 10:34
  Jill Purce: Then they set them up and then I have the person representing themselves.
• 10:39
  Jill Purce: So this is not the way that Hellinger did it, and this is not the way that most people, most people have somebody else to represent them.
• 10:47
  Jill Purce: I like to have the person as themselves.
• 10:49
  Jill Purce: They set them up and, and then we start working.
• 10:52
  Jill Purce: And then when we finish working again, I have a whole ceremonial episode, and then we start the chanting again.
• 10:58
  Jill Purce: So the chanting is really between each person as a way of getting.
• 11:03
  Jill Purce: E the person working and their family, elected family members into an altered state or into the pres into presence.
• 11:11
  Jill Purce: Really?
• 11:12
  Jill Purce: Because I think, you know, the talking, talking is a problem and talking therapy is a problem 'cause you can only talk about what you know.
• 11:20
  Jill Purce: So I like to use sound to get people into presence so that they're working on another level together.
• 11:29
  Tracy Cartwright: Wow, that's amazing.
• 11:32
  Tracy Cartwright: That's beautiful.
• 11:33
  Tracy Cartwright: And I was watching your hands when you were doing and you were creating spirals as you were sharing and describing that.
• 11:39
  Tracy Cartwright: I don't know if you were aware that's what you were doing, but Yeah.
• 11:42
  Tracy Cartwright: Wow.
• 11:43
  Tracy Cartwright: I was just visualizing that as you were going through that sounds amazing.
• 11:47
  Tracy Cartwright: Really amazing.
• 11:48
  Tracy Cartwright: And the body being, uh, you know, like when you're chanting and the sound creating light in your body, right.
• 11:56
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes.
• 11:56
  Tracy Cartwright: And so then we can expand our light body, our fascia, and which is the connective tissues and all of that.
• 12:03
  Tracy Cartwright: So.
• 12:04
  Tracy Cartwright: There's so much freedom and when,
• 12:06
  Jill Purce: I mean, I have them, there's a moment after they've dragged their family around when they lie down with the family around them, and then I use rattles and sage and holy water and, and, and so they're really, you know, thrown into, into presence and then they sit up and talk to each person.
• 12:22
  Jill Purce: So it really is a way of getting people into.
• 12:27
  Jill Purce: In, into presence really, so that they're not in the thinking mind.
• 12:30
  Jill Purce: That's, I, I, you know, that's always the problem, being in the rational thinking discursive mind.
• 12:37
  Jill Purce: Mm. Yeah.
• 12:38
  Jill Purce: 'cause then we go into big story too, don't we?
• 12:40
  Jill Purce: Oh, yes.
• 12:41
  Jill Purce: And when, when people say, oh, that reminds me, my heart sinks because I know they're going to get into story.
• 12:48
  Jill Purce: So, yeah.
• 12:49
  Jill Purce: Uh, and advice of course is to absolutely
• 12:51
  Tracy Cartwright: deadly.
• 12:52
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 12:53
  Tracy Cartwright: Fascinating.
• 12:53
  Tracy Cartwright: How do you describe it to people when you are.
• 12:56
  Tracy Cartwright: If you're meeting someone for the first time and, and they say, so what do you do, Jill?
• 13:01
  Jill Purce: Do you know?
• 13:01
  Jill Purce: It's so difficult.
• 13:02
  Jill Purce: I mean, I've done other things which are even harder.
• 13:04
  Jill Purce: I mean, I used to do whole ceremonies with the mandala where the group became the mandala, and that's even harder to describe.
• 13:12
  Jill Purce: It's very hard to describe.
• 13:13
  Jill Purce: I don't usually describe the process.
• 13:15
  Jill Purce: I just say that I'm working with transgenerational traumas and you know, that people select.
• 13:21
  Jill Purce: It's very interesting actually, because.
• 13:24
  Jill Purce: I think we can tune into whatever we like, which is why I never teach people how to become other people.
• 13:31
  Jill Purce: So if you, if, if you were chosen, I mean, if I chose you as my mother, you would become my mother.
• 13:36
  Jill Purce: But I wouldn't ever say how you did that.
• 13:39
  Jill Purce: Mm. But I, so, and the reason how I found this.
• 13:42
  Jill Purce: The first time I witnessed it was when my younger son, Cosmo, who must have been in his late twenties at the time, was representing, and I had, I worked with two brothers very often, and one brother was very, you know, sophisticated.
• 13:58
  Jill Purce: He was doing his PhD on music at Cambridge.
• 14:01
  Jill Purce: His other brother was slightly the, the, the kind of the vulnerable one, you know, and they were both in the workshop and the sophisticated musician one chose.
• 14:11
  Jill Purce: Cosmo, my son, to represent his brother who was in the group watching.
• 14:15
  Jill Purce: This is the first time my son had ever done it.
• 14:18
  Jill Purce: And so first of all, he stood there and then he kind of crumpled and then I could see that he would, he had become the other person he was supposed to be, and then he, I could see him because he's my son.
• 14:32
  Jill Purce: He was my son, is my son saying this is ridiculous.
• 14:36
  Jill Purce: I'm Cosmo.
• 14:37
  Jill Purce: You know, so his rational mind kicked in.
• 14:40
  Jill Purce: Yeah.
• 14:40
  Jill Purce: And then he slumped again, this is ridiculous.
• 14:43
  Jill Purce: I'm Cosmo.
• 14:43
  Jill Purce: Ugh.
• 14:45
  Jill Purce: And so he went from one, you know, from his rational mind, kicking in, becoming himself again, to becoming the person that he was, you know, supposed representing.
• 14:56
  Jill Purce: And so I saw this process.
• 14:59
  Jill Purce: That people go through in the beginning, you know, is it really me?
• 15:02
  Jill Purce: Am I speaking for myself or am I becoming that person that I'm sure you must know this, and, uh, but I, I've never seen it so clearly because he was my son.
• 15:12
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 15:12
  Tracy Cartwright: And you know him so well.
• 15:13
  Tracy Cartwright: So to see the process.
• 15:15
  Tracy Cartwright: Exactly.
• 15:15
  Jill Purce: But I think, you know, I, I'm more and more convinced that we are able to tune into anything we want to just by deciding.
• 15:24
  Jill Purce: Mm-hmm.
• 15:24
  Jill Purce: And so that's how I think people do tune into the other people and become the other people, because that is, in a way, very
• 15:31
  Tracy Cartwright: mysterious.
• 15:32
  Tracy Cartwright: Do you know, the work for me really helped me to understand myself because I was doing all those things before realizing I was doing it.
• 15:41
  Tracy Cartwright: And I used to think I was.
• 15:43
  Tracy Cartwright: Because there was a story about being crazy in my family, so I was pretty much attuned to that.
• 15:48
  Tracy Cartwright: I was crazy on some level because I could, I'd come up to people, you know, like I'm going to say, say I'm at a party and there's a conversation happening, and I would feel really differently when I stood with that group of people and things would come outta me and I'd be like, why did I say that?
• 16:06
  Tracy Cartwright: You know?
• 16:07
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes.
• 16:07
  Tracy Cartwright: So the work really, ma has made me understand myself so much better and, and a lot kinder to myself when I realize, okay, now, now that I understand the process too, is, uh, and I can say to myself, do I wanna share that?
• 16:20
  Tracy Cartwright: Does that appropriate to share?
• 16:22
  Tracy Cartwright: Whereas right.
• 16:23
  Tracy Cartwright: Actually prior, it was like, I had the filters weren't there.
• 16:28
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 16:29
  Jill Purce: Yes.
• 16:30
  Jill Purce: I mean, it's interesting, isn't it?
• 16:31
  Jill Purce: I, I, um, I tend not to tune into it in normal sort of everyday life.
• 16:38
  Jill Purce: 'cause I, I know it can be very confusing for people, but, uh, it's, it's always there if I want to.
• 16:45
  Jill Purce: But, um, yeah, it's
• 16:47
  Tracy Cartwright: tricky.
• 16:47
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 16:48
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 16:48
  Tracy Cartwright: I think too, coming from, I had a very dysfunctional, um, unregulated upbringing, so that was my way of, of being.
• 16:58
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes.
• 16:59
  Tracy Cartwright: Which is gives me great resources now.
• 17:01
  Tracy Cartwright: So I guess, um, I'm glad that I've been able to find that side of things.
• 17:06
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh yeah, yeah.
• 17:08
  Tracy Cartwright: If you want to share, how have you seen this work shift things in your own system or those around you that maybe you've done a piece of work and things have moved?
• 17:20
  Jill Purce: Yes, I mean, I've worked a few times.
• 17:21
  Jill Purce: I worked with, um, I worked with, first of all, um, I forget his name, somebody who used to work a lot with Hellinger.
• 17:30
  Jill Purce: Then I worked with Hellinger.
• 17:31
  Jill Purce: Actually, funnily enough, when I worked with Hellinger, I didn't, it didn't, I didn't mean anything to me.
• 17:38
  Jill Purce: I dunno why just turning on a light there, um, it didn't seem to work very well.
• 17:44
  Jill Purce: In fact, the, the, the first, the best time it worked really was somebody came to visit Rupert.
• 17:49
  Jill Purce: And it worked with me individually on a tray.
• 17:51
  Jill Purce: And people often ask me, um, do I work individually?
• 17:56
  Jill Purce: And I usually say no, because I feel that the field, the group of the group is very important.
• 18:03
  Jill Purce: I don't, I can work individually with people, but I tend to say no because the whole point about this work is not, is working in the field.
• 18:13
  Jill Purce: And although I can and I have, and you know, it's very powerful too.
• 18:18
  Jill Purce: And on this occasion, this was the most powerful I think.
• 18:20
  Jill Purce: I mean, I've done it several times myself, uh, in lots of different ways.
• 18:24
  Jill Purce: And, and I mean, they've all been pretty amazing actually.
• 18:27
  Jill Purce: Yeah.
• 18:28
  Jill Purce: Mm. Yeah.
• 18:30
  Jill Purce: And I, I would say that when I work with people, there's almost always some kind of resolution.
• 18:36
  Jill Purce: And also when people, I have people articulate if they want something.
• 18:40
  Jill Purce: So I remembered I was traveling down from the north of England to London back after a conference, and there was a woman there who worked for the BBC as a filmmaker, and she was with her husband, and they'd been.
• 18:52
  Jill Purce: Trying for a child for years and nothing had happened.
• 18:56
  Jill Purce: So I said, well, do my workshop and articulate that that's what you want.
• 19:00
  Jill Purce: I want a child.
• 19:00
  Jill Purce: And she did, and she got pregnant within weeks.
• 19:03
  Jill Purce: Wow.
• 19:03
  Jill Purce: So I, I, I do find that.
• 19:07
  Jill Purce: It is quite extraordinary as well for people.
• 19:10
  Jill Purce: So there's almost always a kind of resolution and um, if somebody articulates that they want something, it almost always happens.
• 19:18
  Jill Purce: And the other thing is I've recently been asked to, um, apply the method to different issues.
• 19:26
  Jill Purce: So one particular issue is regenerative farming or agroecology.
• 19:30
  Jill Purce: It's now called.
• 19:32
  Jill Purce: And, and, and so I've done that many times and that's always very interesting.
• 19:36
  Jill Purce: I mean, in a way there are no resolutions possible with this because there are so many.
• 19:41
  Jill Purce: Conflicting interests involved, you know, so I have people wear actually tabards and have maybe 25 people working.
• 19:50
  Jill Purce: You know, 'cause there's so many issues.
• 19:52
  Jill Purce: So that's a very different process from working with families where, I mean, the only kind of families.
• 19:58
  Jill Purce: I mean, most families are relatively small, five or four people, sometimes even two.
• 20:03
  Jill Purce: But Irish Catholic families tend to be sometimes 10 people of course.
• 20:09
  Jill Purce: But otherwise, it's nothing like, you know, these issues where there are lots of conflicting issues.
• 20:14
  Jill Purce: But it is interesting how the process, so I've done kind of quite sophisticated scientific conferences and had people representing something completely opposite to their own.
• 20:25
  Jill Purce: Notion, you know, so somebody working with CRISPR or, or genetic engineering, you know, representing fungi or something, I mean, it's really hilarious.
• 20:35
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 20:36
  Tracy Cartwright: And that's what I love about this Wicked is the, um, adaptability of it as well.
• 20:41
  Jill Purce: Oh yes.
• 20:42
  Tracy Cartwright: It's extraordinary.
• 20:43
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 20:44
  Tracy Cartwright: That's beautiful.
• 20:46
  Tracy Cartwright: Now you and I were talking just a little bit earlier before we started recording'cause you've got a couple of, um, online.
• 20:51
  Tracy Cartwright: You've got an online and an in-person constellation coming up soon.
• 20:55
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes.
• 20:55
  Tracy Cartwright: So in January I have, I think,
• 20:57
  Jill Purce: yeah, in January I have to check the dates 'cause I know, remember them always.
• 21:02
  Jill Purce: But it's the 16th, 17th, and 18th of January online, so people can join from everywhere.
• 21:07
  Jill Purce: And that's the wonderful thing about working online is, you know, ecologically it's very sound.
• 21:13
  Jill Purce: You don't have to go anywhere.
• 21:14
  Jill Purce: Um, so that's, um, Feb, uh, what did I say?
• 21:17
  Jill Purce: January, January, January 16th, 17th and 18th.
• 21:20
  Jill Purce: Online.
• 21:22
  Jill Purce: And then January, February, then I got another one in March.
• 21:25
  Jill Purce: I haven't got the dates yet.
• 21:26
  Jill Purce: And then in April I got a face-to-face, week intensive in London, non non-residential from April the 25th to May the first.
• 21:40
  Jill Purce: And I have to say, people do come from all over the world and it's in a wonderful space close to me and, and it's.
• 21:47
  Jill Purce: It's a very, very extraordinary weekend.
• 21:50
  Jill Purce: I work with everybody in turn and, and it's wonderful
• 21:53
  Tracy Cartwright: soon.
• 21:54
  Tracy Cartwright: Fantastic.
• 21:54
  Tracy Cartwright: Well, I'm gonna put, so this, the two, I'm gonna put those out there, not, oh no, I can't come in April 'cause I'm, um, part of a conference that we're doing here, but, uh, you never know.
• 22:04
  Tracy Cartwright: Who knows, maybe one day I'll get to London.
• 22:06
  Tracy Cartwright: I've never been so well, I try to do two.
• 22:11
  Jill Purce: Yeah, I try to do a two in person workshops a year, and I've got another one on the 23rd of November another week, so that's the only other one.
• 22:21
  Jill Purce: So maybe you can come to that one.
• 22:23
  Jill Purce: And that one, we have a requi mass for the ancestors and, and that we, the, the, the priest chance, the names of our ancestors that we give them.
• 22:30
  Jill Purce: That's
• 22:30
  Tracy Cartwright: very wonderful.
• 22:32
  Tracy Cartwright: Wow.
• 22:33
  Tracy Cartwright: Sounds amazing.
• 22:34
  Tracy Cartwright: So for the online one, how will people find you?
• 22:37
  Tracy Cartwright: If they,
• 22:38
  Jill Purce: well, um, the best is to go to my website, which is www healing voice one word, healing voice.com.
• 22:46
  Jill Purce: That's the best way.
• 22:47
  Jill Purce: Healing voice.com.
• 22:48
  Jill Purce: And, and if you scroll down on the homepage, you can just click a link and book in with, um, I have an online booking system.
• 22:57
  Jill Purce: It's very, very easy.
• 22:58
  Jill Purce: Yeah.
• 22:58
  Jill Purce: It doesn't say easy.
• 22:59
  Jill Purce: I,
• 22:59
  Tracy Cartwright: I, yeah.
• 23:00
  Jill Purce: Healing voice.com.
• 23:02
  Jill Purce: And I also have social media, so Jill person and you know, Facebook and Instagram.
• 23:08
  Jill Purce: So the dates are always there as well.
• 23:11
  Tracy Cartwright: Great.
• 23:12
  Tracy Cartwright: Okay.
• 23:13
  Tracy Cartwright: So have you seen, as soon as I go to ask that question, I'm, I'm told to ask this other question first because it was a question that popped up earlier.
• 23:21
  Tracy Cartwright: When you are doing your workshops, you mentioned something about everybody gets and you choose everybody one to go in the middle.
• 23:28
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes.
• 23:28
  Tracy Cartwright: So how many people do you have at a workshop and how and how does that work?
• 23:31
  Tracy Cartwright: 'cause I know it takes time.
• 23:33
  Jill Purce: Well, it, when I have a week I have, it depends really.
• 23:37
  Jill Purce: I never know actually, but about 40 people usually.
• 23:42
  Jill Purce: I mean, in the beginning when I started, after COVID having weeks, they were 50.
• 23:46
  Jill Purce: Now it's about 40, um, people online.
• 23:50
  Jill Purce: It's again, you know, COVID.
• 23:53
  Jill Purce: It was huge, and now it's just about 30 people.
• 23:57
  Jill Purce: But online, I can't work with everybody because I, I do.
• 24:00
  Jill Purce: On the Friday, I do three hours where we do two ceremonies for the ancestors to honor and I explain how I do the work.
• 24:08
  Jill Purce: And then Saturday and Sunday I have two hours, an hour's break.
• 24:13
  Jill Purce: Two hours, yeah.
• 24:14
  Jill Purce: And so I find that I can't work with everybody online.
• 24:18
  Jill Purce: So what I do is I put the names of the people who want to work in a basket and I choose them.
• 24:24
  Jill Purce: So I, because I'm used to working with everybody, I don't feel it's my business to choose.
• 24:30
  Jill Purce: So I put it in the hands of some greater force and choose by divination, and it's always fascinating.
• 24:36
  Jill Purce: Um, so I, I don't work with everybody online, but I I, but on the other hand, online, it's very intimate and, and so because everybody's just there and so we discuss each one, whereas face to face, we don't discuss them so much.
• 24:50
  Jill Purce: We do them.
• 24:51
  Jill Purce: And, and one of the things that's fascinating is that how the.
• 24:56
  Jill Purce: People that you represent often have very similar issues to your own.
• 25:01
  Jill Purce: Yes.
• 25:02
  Jill Purce: As I'm sure you know, this is fascinating and this is something we discuss online, you know, very much.
• 25:08
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes.
• 25:08
  Tracy Cartwright: That's brilliant.
• 25:09
  Tracy Cartwright: And I guess if you're doing it over a week, you've got that time to do that.
• 25:12
  Tracy Cartwright: 'cause I was like, yes.
• 25:13
  Jill Purce: Gosh, you must have Every week I, every a week I work with everybody and I also do several ceremonies for the ancestors.
• 25:19
  Jill Purce: Yeah.
• 25:19
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes, yes.
• 25:20
  Tracy Cartwright: I, I understand now.
• 25:21
  Tracy Cartwright: It was like little part of me was questioning, how did you do that?
• 25:24
  Tracy Cartwright: You must be magic working in multiple rounds at the same time.
• 25:28
  Tracy Cartwright: But you are magic anyway.
• 25:29
  Tracy Cartwright: I know that.
• 25:30
  Tracy Cartwright: And healing voices healing the voice.
• 25:33
  Tracy Cartwright: So, so, I. When was that?
• 25:37
  Tracy Cartwright: Back in 2018?
• 25:40
  Tracy Cartwright: 2017, I started to notice some things in my own voice and there was a lot that was repressed, unsaid.
• 25:46
  Tracy Cartwright: And then I realized that I'd created some nodules in my throat, in my thyroid.
• 25:52
  Tracy Cartwright: And at about 21 I 20 20, 20 21, the medical system said that I had created, um, well, that there was cancer in there.
• 26:02
  Tracy Cartwright: So that really took me on a journey a with cacao, which I shared with you earlier that I make my own cacao, but it also took me on a journey with finding my voice and releasing it.
• 26:11
  Tracy Cartwright: And at the time I hadn't seen anyone.
• 26:14
  Tracy Cartwright: 2019, I saw Carl Hines, Russia, and he was using his voice, um, in a constellation.
• 26:21
  Tracy Cartwright: That was the first time I'd seen anyone do anything remotely like that.
• 26:26
  Tracy Cartwright: It had been wanting to come through me.
• 26:28
  Tracy Cartwright: And I'd been trying to keep the lid on it because it was just felt like, you know, no, this is not gonna be constellations if I do this.
• 26:36
  Tracy Cartwright: But I, I have given it free permission.
• 26:40
  Tracy Cartwright: I've given the sound, the energy, the movement, free permission to flow through me because, you know, I was creating this block, this, like, it's almost like I put a cap on it.
• 26:50
  Tracy Cartwright: So I'm really grateful that you're doing this work and it's so important and so potent out there.
• 26:56
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 26:56
  Tracy Cartwright: And you're leading the way in it.
• 26:58
  Tracy Cartwright: That's amazing.
• 26:59
  Jill Purce: I, yes, and I love it.
• 27:00
  Jill Purce: I absolutely love the work and, and I find it extraordinary and I, I seem to be able to do it.
• 27:06
  Jill Purce: That's the other thing.
• 27:07
  Jill Purce: But one of the things that I, I notice in order to do it, I have to be absolutely present.
• 27:12
  Jill Purce: I can't have any preconceptions about the outcome.
• 27:16
  Jill Purce: You know, if this, then that.
• 27:18
  Jill Purce: No way.
• 27:19
  Jill Purce: And that is really refreshing because I want to be in the present anyway, and it forces me to be in the present.
• 27:27
  Jill Purce: So I have to respond instantaneously in the present with no preconceptions.
• 27:32
  Jill Purce: And that's magic, you know?
• 27:35
  Jill Purce: I find that so refreshing.
• 27:37
  Jill Purce: And thrilling and exciting and central.
• 27:40
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 27:41
  Tracy Cartwright: Have you got any examples of.
• 27:45
  Tracy Cartwright: Something that you could share, obviously without crossing any boundaries of confidentiality or anything like that, but any sort of Mm.
• 27:52
  Jill Purce: It's difficult because one of the things that keeps me sane is that I don't remember them.
• 27:58
  Jill Purce: So for example, if somebody asked me 10 minutes later.
• 28:01
  Jill Purce: About their session, I might look at them very blankly and, and say, I'm sorry, I don't remember.
• 28:07
  Jill Purce: And I think that's what keeps me sane, because if I was to keep all the stuff that comes up inside, I, I'd go completely crazy.
• 28:15
  Jill Purce: So it's very difficult for me to think of particular, oh, particular things.
• 28:21
  Tracy Cartwright: That's okay.
• 28:22
  Tracy Cartwright: It might pop in as, as we go along.
• 28:23
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, I mean, I
• 28:24
  Jill Purce: have worked with some pretty, I mean, I. Yeah, I, I've worked with all kinds of, all kinds of people and, you know, I've worked with, in, in England, we, you know, it's, we still have, you know, the royal family and all, you know, a lot of aristocrats with enormous, the states and so on, and I've worked a lot with.
• 28:44
  Jill Purce: Those which are interesting.
• 28:45
  Jill Purce: And I I always say to them, don't say their, you know, just say their names, you know, without saying who they are.
• 28:52
  Jill Purce: And that's interesting.
• 28:53
  Jill Purce: And, but I work with all, all walks of life, you know, from very, very, very simple, apparently simple.
• 29:01
  Jill Purce: But actually.
• 29:02
  Jill Purce: Sometimes the simplest seeming backgrounds are the most weird and strange, so you never know.
• 29:10
  Jill Purce: I mean, that's what's so exciting.
• 29:11
  Jill Purce: You never know what's going to come up, you know, from the, from the weirdest and strangest and unexpected from.
• 29:20
  Jill Purce: S you know, all, all through.
• 29:22
  Jill Purce: So I, yeah.
• 29:23
  Jill Purce: And so one of the things that I have found is that very often people, coming back to your question, I suppose people often, descendants, often suffer, suffer in the way.
• 29:35
  Jill Purce: Um, related to the, if so, if somebody has created dynasty, let's say, and become quite wealthy, and this is just very occasionally, then very often the descendants will suffer in the way that the people who were exploited often they are, have to be.
• 29:52
  Jill Purce: And people are very often exploited.
• 29:54
  Jill Purce: Were exploited at the beginning.
• 29:56
  Jill Purce: So for example, families who are purveyors of alcohol in some way or other.
• 30:03
  Jill Purce: For example, often the descendants will suffer from some kind of addiction, for example, or, um, families that made big.
• 30:12
  Jill Purce: Creating, you know, being, being big, big buildings or railways, you know, their descendants may suffer in a similar way.
• 30:20
  Jill Purce: So often there's a connection between.
• 30:23
  Jill Purce: People suffer and the way that the original fortune, if it was a fortune, were made.
• 30:30
  Jill Purce: And, and often people also fulfill the, the, um, unfulfilled ambitions of their parents.
• 30:38
  Jill Purce: So often, you know, people want to do things, want to go to university, but there's no money, you know, or there's a war on, or, you know.
• 30:46
  Jill Purce: Or so they can't, so, so sometimes their descendants will do what they never did and, and sometimes their descendants will do things which have no relation to what they were doing before.
• 30:59
  Jill Purce: Suddenly, I mean, this happened to me.
• 31:00
  Jill Purce: Suddenly I started doing things which had no relation to what went before, but it was like I was living the unfulfilled ambitions of my par of my mother, for example.
• 31:10
  Jill Purce: You know, I was living out her.
• 31:12
  Jill Purce: Her kind of crazy dream.
• 31:14
  Jill Purce: So that's, that's another thing that I find very exciting.
• 31:18
  Jill Purce: You
• 31:18
  Tracy Cartwright: stepped, sorry, you stepped into that or you had been living it?
• 31:21
  Tracy Cartwright: And then No,
• 31:21
  Jill Purce: no, I stepped into it suddenly.
• 31:23
  Jill Purce: Oh.
• 31:23
  Jill Purce: It became, you know, it became part of my life.
• 31:26
  Jill Purce: So, you know, my mother was a musician, for example, and, um, she was a very, she was taught by a very famous, she was a pianist and she was taught by cult Alfred Corto, who was a very famous pianist.
• 31:39
  Jill Purce: And her, her, she had this sort of fantasy about falling in love with a European musician.
• 31:43
  Jill Purce: And, and, um, that happened to me.
• 31:45
  Jill Purce: You know, I, I, I met.
• 31:47
  Jill Purce: Carl Stockhausen, who was a very famous German composer and went to live with him for four years, you know, and, and that was like outta the blue.
• 31:55
  Jill Purce: It was, it was something quite extraordinary.
• 31:58
  Jill Purce: So, so in a sense, I, I feel that, and that changed everything for me and, and, you know, has been a very important part of my life.
• 32:05
  Jill Purce: But I, I feel that somehow I was, it was related to her, you know, so, so that's, these are just themes which I find happen in, in the work, which are very interesting.
• 32:17
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm.
• 32:17
  Jill Purce: Yeah.
• 32:19
  Tracy Cartwright: You make me think about my mom and Yeah, I think there's part of me that's really stepped into this work because I know that, um, that she, well, it wasn't, it was, I think it was more of a, there was potential that she wouldn't tap into.
• 32:33
  Tracy Cartwright: She chose not to, she chose, she was always say, I would, she wouldn't use her gifts and stuff, you know, it was very much in the family, and no, she was not gonna touch them.
• 32:43
  Tracy Cartwright: So, yeah.
• 32:45
  Tracy Cartwright: So you'd have to.
• 32:46
  Tracy Cartwright: Probably for both sides of the family actually.
• 32:48
  Tracy Cartwright: 'cause on my dad's side, uh, very, the Irish gypsy running through there and um, very in tune.
• 32:56
  Tracy Cartwright: And they never called it that, you know, it was just like, oh no.
• 32:59
  Tracy Cartwright: So yeah.
• 33:00
  Tracy Cartwright: Maybe a bit for both sides.
• 33:02
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 33:04
  Tracy Cartwright: Can I ask what is your, um, lineage?
• 33:06
  Tracy Cartwright: Like?
• 33:06
  Tracy Cartwright: What, what is your ancestry?
• 33:08
  Tracy Cartwright: Is it English?
• 33:10
  Jill Purce: Oh, it's English.
• 33:10
  Jill Purce: My, well, my father was Irish and was pretty crazy.
• 33:14
  Jill Purce: He was from the north actually, so he was a Presbyterian Irish.
• 33:17
  Jill Purce: Irish from the north, and my mother.
• 33:19
  Jill Purce: Was English, Danish, German.
• 33:21
  Jill Purce: She was sort of a mix, a European mix really, but, but you know, forever in London and living in London, you know, generations back.
• 33:31
  Jill Purce: Yeah.
• 33:31
  Jill Purce: And, uh, yeah.
• 33:32
  Jill Purce: So British, yeah.
• 33:35
  Jill Purce: But yeah, with these other elements.
• 33:38
  Tracy Cartwright: Beautiful, beautiful.
• 33:39
  Tracy Cartwright: And you, I. For those who aren't able to, um, to view Jill online, and you are listening, she has a beautiful backdrop behind her with her Tibetan.
• 33:50
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, and this is part of very strong part of your, um, your, what would you call it?
• 33:56
  Tracy Cartwright: Your beliefs, your lineage, your.
• 33:58
  Jill Purce: Well, I've wor, I've studied meditation and practices almost all my life actually, and I've dabbled in various, various ones.
• 34:06
  Jill Purce: And then I finally met a Tibetan Lama in the seventies and I followed him for a very long time because I found hi, he'd lived in the West so he understood.
• 34:15
  Jill Purce: I mean, t Tibetan Buddhas of can seem really strange.
• 34:18
  Jill Purce: To a westerner.
• 34:20
  Jill Purce: It's very baroque and peculiar.
• 34:21
  Jill Purce: But he had a way of, you know, he'd, he'd been teaching in, in Italy for many years as a professor, and he understood Western mind.
• 34:31
  Jill Purce: And so finally, after having studied in different traditions, I, I found that what he said really made sense.
• 34:38
  Jill Purce: And so I spent many years studying with him.
• 34:41
  Jill Purce: So that's why you see all these strange things behind me.
• 34:45
  Jill Purce: Yeah.
• 34:46
  Jill Purce: Oh, I love it.
• 34:46
  Jill Purce: That's great.
• 34:47
  Jill Purce: And this is, this is, this is Statue of Ian actually, who's, uh, this wonderful.
• 34:52
  Jill Purce: She's not Tibetan, a feminine aspect of the dying.
• 34:55
  Jill Purce: She's similar to Tara, so she's very similar to the Tibetan.
• 34:59
  Jill Purce: She's actually not she, but she cares.
• 35:02
  Jill Purce: She cares everywhere in the far east, you know, Canon, Canon cameras are named after her Canon qua.
• 35:09
  Jill Purce: She has lots of names and, um, she's a feminine aspect of the divine.
• 35:14
  Jill Purce: Yeah.
• 35:14
  Jill Purce: And, and so I, I found her very, she's played an interesting role in my life.
• 35:21
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 35:21
  Tracy Cartwright: Well, you carry that very feminine energy too.
• 35:24
  Tracy Cartwright: You know, it radiates through you so you can see that connection with Kian.
• 35:29
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 35:31
  Jill Purce: I think so it's interesting.
• 35:33
  Jill Purce: I was asked to present on a panel at a conference on the feminine recently, and, and I have to say that I've never felt the need, you know, to espouse the feminine cause, but.
• 35:47
  Jill Purce: All these things have happened to me, which have meant that I have, that the feminine divine has come through me, but, but it's never been something that I felt to I needed to chase after, or I never felt inferior through being a woman, for example.
• 36:03
  Jill Purce: I always.
• 36:04
  Jill Purce: And my mother too, and my grandmother, they've always done what they needed to do.
• 36:08
  Jill Purce: You know, whether they were a woman or not, or, but at the same time, you know, I have felt very strongly this fem as, as you say, this feminine force coming through me, without a doubt.
• 36:19
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah,
• 36:20
  Jill Purce: well it's very evident.
• 36:21
  Tracy Cartwright: Very evident.
• 36:23
  Tracy Cartwright: And I think too, you are using the voice and it's another reflection of.
• 36:28
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, and we, a lot of us know this, that the, the, the throat and the, the yoni, the uterus and all of the female treasures are mirrors of each other, aren't they?
• 36:40
  Jill Purce: Yes.
• 36:41
  Jill Purce: They're very connected.
• 36:43
  Jill Purce: Yeah.
• 36:43
  Jill Purce: Yeah.
• 36:43
  Jill Purce: I like the word treasures.
• 36:45
  Jill Purce: It's very good.
• 36:47
  Tracy Cartwright: Was that, that word just popped in, so that was like, yeah.
• 36:51
  Tracy Cartwright: That felt really appropriate actually.
• 36:52
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 36:53
  Tracy Cartwright: It's a wonderful one.
• 36:54
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 36:55
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 36:56
  Tracy Cartwright: What else do I want to ask?
• 36:57
  Tracy Cartwright: I think my friend Josie asked me to ask you a question, so I'll just go into that.
• 37:03
  Tracy Cartwright: What influence might Bert have had on your work?
• 37:06
  Tracy Cartwright: And, and with Rupert, what he does as well.
• 37:09
  Tracy Cartwright: So there's two questions.
• 37:10
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes.
• 37:11
  Jill Purce: Well, I mean, Rupert and my work are very related.
• 37:15
  Jill Purce: There's no question.
• 37:16
  Jill Purce: You know, he's got a lot from me and I've got a lot from him.
• 37:19
  Jill Purce: And before I met him, I, we met in 82.
• 37:22
  Jill Purce: We're just about to celebrate on Sunday, our 40th wedding anniversary.
• 37:27
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, congratulations.
• 37:28
  Jill Purce: And our sons are coming up and, um, yeah.
• 37:31
  Jill Purce: So we've both influenced each other very strongly, I think.
• 37:34
  Jill Purce: And before I met him, I worked with a lot of scientists and then when we got together, I realized I no longer needed to because I was married to one, but, and Bert's work, well, I came to this work before I met, I met Bert and before I encountered his work, and actually in the nineties, he asked me.
• 37:54
  Jill Purce: If I would present at a conference of his in Vlock in Germany, present my work, which I did.
• 38:00
  Jill Purce: I mean, that was the first, one of the first, I think I'd obviously just met him beforehand, but he asked me in the nine, in the, in the 1990s if I would present my ideas at his conference.
• 38:12
  Jill Purce: So I did.
• 38:13
  Jill Purce: But I, I think, yeah, I think his work has influenced me a lot, but I do it very differently.
• 38:20
  Jill Purce: As I mentioned, you know, it's ceremonially and I have the person listen to else, and so I, I do do it in a very different way, but at the same time, I, I dunno how he's influenced me, but he definitely has.
• 38:33
  Jill Purce: Um, so you spent a bit of time
• 38:35
  Tracy Cartwright: with him.
• 38:36
  Tracy Cartwright: And convers.
• 38:37
  Jill Purce: Oh, yes, I know him.
• 38:38
  Jill Purce: Conversations him very well.
• 38:39
  Jill Purce: Yeah.
• 38:39
  Jill Purce: Yeah.
• 38:40
  Jill Purce: I mean, I knew him more as a friend because he used to come and have dinner with us whenever he was here, and so I knew him very well and, and I, I worked with him once.
• 38:48
  Jill Purce: He worked with my family once and, but actually as I mentioned, it wasn't brilliant.
• 38:54
  Jill Purce: It didn't sort of resonate so strongly with me when, when he did work with me.
• 38:58
  Jill Purce: But, but seeing him work with other people and I've certainly seen him work with other people, has been very interesting.
• 39:04
  Tracy Cartwright: And, and I think he changed a lot over the years from Yes.
• 39:08
  Tracy Cartwright: When you see the early work.
• 39:09
  Tracy Cartwright: Right.
• 39:10
  Tracy Cartwright: And then later towards the end of his life, he got much more into the spirit mind and, um, the understanding in a different way.
• 39:18
  Tracy Cartwright: Because I think, you know, at the beginning, this is my, there's a lot more the psychology side of it.
• 39:24
  Tracy Cartwright: And then, uh, this is my interpretation of it, that at the beginning there was that psychology side, and then it flowed more into the spirit and the energy and the healing.
• 39:33
  Jill Purce: Yes.
• 39:34
  Jill Purce: Well, I think, I mean, I, the origins of it are quite interesting because they, it comes down through the gestalt tradition.
• 39:41
  Jill Purce: People like Virginia Satia, who I worked with in the very early eighties, briefly.
• 39:47
  Jill Purce: Um, so it's very much a geal movement.
• 39:49
  Jill Purce: But at the same time, he was a Catholic priest.
• 39:52
  Jill Purce: People have made a lot about his.
• 39:54
  Jill Purce: Working with the Zulus, I, I don't think that's very important, actually.
• 39:58
  Jill Purce: I mean, I think, you know, traditional cultures, I honor the ancestors very strongly, and I think in that sense it plays a part, but I don't think much other than that really.
• 40:11
  Jill Purce: But I think the main, the main roots of the tradition come down through the gestalt tradition, through the gestalt lineage in a way.
• 40:19
  Jill Purce: But his work.
• 40:21
  Jill Purce: As a, as a Catholic priest and working, um, with the Zulu, I think obviously affected him very strongly.
• 40:29
  Jill Purce: And as you say, I think it got more and more spiritual and less and less psychological as he went on.
• 40:34
  Jill Purce: Yeah.
• 40:35
  Jill Purce: And now it's been taken over really.
• 40:36
  Jill Purce: He, I mean, in, in the time that I knew him, he divorced his wife and married again, and the person he married again has slightly taken it over and, and sort of hallmarked it rather.
• 40:46
  Jill Purce: I mean, the, the nice thing about Bert was that he, he left it open for everybody to make.
• 40:51
  Jill Purce: Of it what they wanted and do their own version.
• 40:54
  Jill Purce: Whereas, you know, his second wife, which he yeah, really happened in his nineties, uh, has tried to, you know, um, make it her own, which is, you know, I don't think it is a good thing.
• 41:08
  Jill Purce: Yeah.
• 41:09
  Jill Purce: Okay.
• 41:09
  Tracy Cartwright: I, I haven't really delved into that side of.
• 41:13
  Tracy Cartwright: No, I mean, that's more
• 41:14
  Jill Purce: European
• 41:15
  Tracy Cartwright: that you wouldn't Yeah.
• 41:16
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 41:16
  Tracy Cartwright: And, and there's the, you know, I follow the pool, I follow the, and I haven't had a pool to go there, so maybe one day, who knows, to have a little, even have a little look and explore that, uh, what's going on there.
• 41:28
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes.
• 41:29
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, but I have recently been to Mexico and so there was a lot of, a lot of people over there.
• 41:35
  Tracy Cartwright: 'cause there's the, it's quite influential.
• 41:38
  Tracy Cartwright: I think the work that was happening later in life was coming through South America a lot.
• 41:43
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah,
• 41:43
  Jill Purce: well I think, yes, I think it's very big in South America actually.
• 41:47
  Jill Purce: And I think it's used in the judicial system as well there in some countries, maybe in Brazil.
• 41:52
  Jill Purce: Yeah.
• 41:52
  Jill Purce: Yeah.
• 41:53
  Jill Purce: So I, I think that's very, and Brazil has a history of, you know, whereas many people bring different traditions together and you feel it's a kind of salad.
• 42:01
  Jill Purce: Whereas in Brazil, different traditions come together, but somehow it works.
• 42:05
  Jill Purce: You know, they're very syncratic.
• 42:07
  Jill Purce: But, but what comes together is very powerful.
• 42:10
  Jill Purce: Very often.
• 42:10
  Jill Purce: I've spent a bit of time in Brazil and taught there, and so it's interesting that they've taken it on board in
• 42:16
  Tracy Cartwright: the way they
• 42:17
  Jill Purce: have.
• 42:18
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, and I, my awareness too is that they have it in the medical system in some cases where there is, uh, situations where they just can't quite pinpoint like the, they've tried all different things and it just keeps coming back to reset to the original issue.
• 42:36
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes.
• 42:37
  Tracy Cartwright: So that's great.
• 42:38
  Tracy Cartwright: Gosh, wouldn't it be, imagine the world being able to do that.
• 42:41
  Tracy Cartwright: Look at it from such a different lens, which is really that, that and Ruts original and, and,
• 42:46
  Jill Purce: and, and my husband's theory has been really adopted in a sense.
• 42:50
  Jill Purce: Um, you know, his, his morphic feels and the idea of the field and so on has been very, has been adopted by mm-hmm.
• 42:58
  Jill Purce: By most people who work in this because, you know, everybody tries to.
• 43:03
  Jill Purce: Find a scientific root for it and, and I mean there are lot, there's lots of very interesting examples of it coming down through societies, you know, through they found that descendants of people in racial traumas like the Hunger Winter and Holland in the war.
• 43:20
  Jill Purce: The 19th century famine in Sweden, um, you know, the Irish famine, the Holocaust, and so on, and all these racial traumas, they found that subsequent generations have not only emotional changes and problems, but also physical and chemical changes.
• 43:38
  Jill Purce: Which is very interesting indeed.
• 43:40
  Jill Purce: And also they've now found that, um, nematode worms, you know, so scientists use fruit flies or nematode worms in their experiments because they have a very short generation time.
• 43:52
  Jill Purce: So you can see a lot of generations very quickly.
• 43:55
  Jill Purce: And they found that nematode worms, they, that they, the, the, the inheritance of acquired characters, which was when I did a research fellowship.
• 44:02
  Jill Purce: With the man who, one of the three who got the Nobel Prize for DNA structure of DNA.
• 44:08
  Jill Purce: Um, and when you talked about the inheritance of acquired characters, then, you know, they would pale and say it was all in the DNA.
• 44:16
  Jill Purce: Now everything's changed.
• 44:18
  Jill Purce: It's all epigenetic.
• 44:19
  Jill Purce: It's, it's all the inheritance of acquired characters, again, characteristics which people like.
• 44:25
  Jill Purce: Um, Darwin anyway, assumed was the case.
• 44:28
  Jill Purce: So that's changed a lot and, and they found with NTO worms that, um, things that have been inherited can go on for 55 0 generations.
• 44:38
  Jill Purce: So there's a lot of very interesting work happening in the scientific world around epigenetics and epigenetics, which is trying to show the effect of acquired, how acquired things acquired in lifetime get passed on, which is what our, our work is about.
• 44:54
  Jill Purce: They try and pin it down, materialistically, if you like, in the material.
• 44:59
  Jill Purce: They want to know what's changed, um, you know, in, in chemically and materially, whereas my husband thinks it's more in the field, which I'm sure is right.
• 45:09
  Jill Purce: Um, and you know, they, it's, it's what genes are turned on or off and how they're turned on and off and so on.
• 45:16
  Jill Purce: So the, the establishment is trying to find a, a, a, a physical cause, whereas.
• 45:22
  Jill Purce: You know, my husband, who's an extraordinary scientist, feels there's a kind of field or resonance, which is going on.
• 45:28
  Jill Purce: I'm sure that's much more, much more what's happening.
• 45:32
  Jill Purce: But you know, we have to wait until that can be approved.
• 45:37
  Jill Purce: Uh, but we know, we know, yeah.
• 45:40
  Jill Purce: We see it working Well,
• 45:40
  Tracy Cartwright: it's, it's that knowing, isn't it?
• 45:42
  Tracy Cartwright: It's that knowing.
• 45:43
  Tracy Cartwright: And, um, it's, it's interesting'cause, you know, as, as I was growing up, I used to say, but why?
• 45:49
  Tracy Cartwright: How, how does that happen?
• 45:50
  Tracy Cartwright: But why?
• 45:51
  Tracy Cartwright: And now I'm like, but I, I know it, I know that it's there.
• 45:55
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 45:55
  Tracy Cartwright: I don't, I don't have to question why.
• 45:59
  Tracy Cartwright: No, why is no good?
• 46:00
  Tracy Cartwright: Useless question.
• 46:02
  Jill Purce: Mm. There is no why.
• 46:03
  Jill Purce: You know, when, when people, if people talk during a session and say, why do you always do this?
• 46:08
  Jill Purce: I, I say, no.
• 46:10
  Jill Purce: Why's, whys?
• 46:11
  Jill Purce: There are no, you're just working with what is, you know, there is no whys are relevant, really.
• 46:18
  Jill Purce: Fascinating.
• 46:19
  Tracy Cartwright: I'm just, uh, seeing what, what else wants to come through.
• 46:22
  Tracy Cartwright: That's what I love about this work, this conversation as well.
• 46:25
  Tracy Cartwright: It's like, what's, what's next?
• 46:27
  Tracy Cartwright: 'cause we could talk for ages about you.
• 46:29
  Tracy Cartwright: You said earlier too, when you are talking with people, you ask them, how are you hurting?
• 46:35
  Tracy Cartwright: I love that.
• 46:37
  Tracy Cartwright: I love that question.
• 46:38
  Tracy Cartwright: Like it's really getting to the point, isn't it?
• 46:41
  Tracy Cartwright: How are you hurting?
• 46:43
  Jill Purce: Yes, exactly.
• 46:44
  Jill Purce: Because it's about what's affecting our lives at the moment.
• 46:47
  Jill Purce: And, and, and then seeing how, what is manifesting for us at the moment in a way that hurts is related to things that were societally inappropriate, were forgotten about, or, you know, caused by injustices going back or whatever it was.
• 47:04
  Jill Purce: And seeing, seeing the things that were never spoken about and people who were forgotten and, and when all that's brought in and people are honored and remembered, and then everything changes, the hurt
• 47:15
  Tracy Cartwright: disappears.
• 47:16
  Tracy Cartwright: Beautiful.
• 47:17
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 47:19
  Tracy Cartwright: It's given it that place, isn't it?
• 47:20
  Tracy Cartwright: In that, in a, in a reverence type of way, you know, that's a place to be seen.
• 47:26
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 47:27
  Tracy Cartwright: Do you have any questions for me?
• 47:29
  Jill Purce: Not really,
• 47:30
  Tracy Cartwright: no.
• 47:32
  Tracy Cartwright: So you talked about Cosmo coming in and doing a constellation has Merlin.
• 47:37
  Tracy Cartwright: Being part of your workshop
• 47:39
  Jill Purce: as well?
• 47:39
  Jill Purce: Yes.
• 47:39
  Jill Purce: I mean, I haven't worked with them because I feel, you know, being my family
• 47:43
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh yeah,
• 47:43
  Jill Purce: yeah.
• 47:43
  Jill Purce: Um, that, that, that it's not appropriate for me to work with them.
• 47:47
  Jill Purce: But they've both represented and so has Rupert actually, and Rupert was very scared of representing.
• 47:52
  Jill Purce: He's, you know, he feels that he doesn't.
• 47:54
  Jill Purce: Tune in very easily.
• 47:56
  Jill Purce: But actually he was wonderful and very funny.
• 47:58
  Jill Purce: And, and, uh, I, I, for me, humor is a big part of it.
• 48:02
  Jill Purce: I it has to be fun.
• 48:04
  Tracy Cartwright: It does, because it can be quite heavy and big work too sometimes.
• 48:07
  Tracy Cartwright: Right.
• 48:08
  Tracy Cartwright: So the humor keeps that, that movement so important.
• 48:11
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 48:11
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 48:12
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 48:12
  Tracy Cartwright: So
• 48:12
  Jill Purce: both boys, Melin and Cosmo and Rupert have both represented.
• 48:16
  Jill Purce: Um, it was very funny because Rupert tends to fall asleep when he's not actually working.
• 48:20
  Jill Purce: So Madden plied him with Ana, you know, this.
• 48:24
  Jill Purce: A Brazilian plant.
• 48:26
  Jill Purce: So Rupert was sitting there.
• 48:29
  Jill Purce: Oh, while awake.
• 48:29
  Jill Purce: He was very funny.
• 48:31
  Jill Purce: They were great.
• 48:32
  Tracy Cartwright: Sorry.
• 48:32
  Tracy Cartwright: I say, oh, it's called Guana.
• 48:33
  Jill Purce: Guana.
• 48:35
  Jill Purce: Guana.
• 48:35
  Jill Purce: I'm not sure it's, it's, I suppose it's got caffeine in it.
• 48:39
  Jill Purce: I'm not sure.
• 48:40
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, Guana.
• 48:41
  Tracy Cartwright: We would call it Guana in, in New Zealand.
• 48:44
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 48:45
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes.
• 48:47
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 48:47
  Tracy Cartwright: It's very stimulating.
• 48:48
  Tracy Cartwright: I have a story around that.
• 48:49
  Tracy Cartwright: We won't go there.
• 48:51
  Tracy Cartwright: It wasn't very pleasant and it was a little bit, um.
• 48:54
  Tracy Cartwright: Self-inflicted, so, okay.
• 48:56
  Tracy Cartwright: Involving alcohol.
• 48:57
  Tracy Cartwright: And Ana, what else do we want to ask?
• 48:59
  Tracy Cartwright: Field?
• 49:00
  Tracy Cartwright: Where do you see yourself going or, or do you see yourself going in the future?
• 49:05
  Tracy Cartwright: Like, are you just letting this.
• 49:07
  Tracy Cartwright: Evolve, or do you Yeah,
• 49:08
  Jill Purce: I just, I mean, I'm just, I, I'm going on with this work.
• 49:11
  Jill Purce: I mean, what the moment I'm, I'm, every month I do something online, so I alternate between a voice workshop and a family constellation, and then twice a year I'm doing this face-to-face.
• 49:22
  Jill Purce: Before COVID, I used to work only face-to-face.
• 49:25
  Jill Purce: And I used to do lots of residential things, but now I just, I, I, you know, whether people want a bath or a shower or to share or, I can't be bothered with that anymore.
• 49:36
  Jill Purce: So now I do two weeks a year of this work, which is fabulous, and, um, and 10 months online.
• 49:44
  Jill Purce: And, and I, you know, I see that.
• 49:46
  Jill Purce: Con that pattern continuing because I love it.
• 49:49
  Jill Purce: I love working online.
• 49:51
  Jill Purce: Actually.
• 49:51
  Jill Purce: I find it so intimate and you know, I love the interaction that happens is I find more intimate in a way than face to face.
• 50:00
  Jill Purce: Strangely, maybe because of the layout of a group.
• 50:03
  Jill Purce: You know, you have a group's quite spatially separated.
• 50:07
  Jill Purce: Yeah.
• 50:07
  Jill Purce: Whereas, you know, online, everybody's face is close up.
• 50:11
  Jill Purce: I don't know.
• 50:14
  Tracy Cartwright: And, and is.
• 50:15
  Tracy Cartwright: The one because you mentioned, um, on the call that you were doing one in Canada.
• 50:20
  Jill Purce: Oh, yes.
• 50:21
  Jill Purce: Um, so I used to teach every year face-to-face in Canada, in in, in British Columbia, an island off, an island off Vancouver Island called Cortes Island, and it's Holly hok.
• 50:31
  Jill Purce: And up until COVID, I went there every year for like 30 odd years more.
• 50:35
  Jill Purce: Mm-hmm.
• 50:36
  Jill Purce: And then COVID closed the boundary, the borders, and we weren't able to go in.
• 50:40
  Jill Purce: And since then.
• 50:42
  Jill Purce: I alternate.
• 50:43
  Jill Purce: Rupert likes to have no fly years because he likes to set a good example for, you know, not having people fly because it uses so much, uh, carbon, you know, carbon, et cetera.
• 50:55
  Jill Purce: Not that it makes a difference because the flights go anyway, but it's an example.
• 50:59
  Jill Purce: So we go there every other year at the moment, and so went there two years ago after COVID, we went there back and then, so yeah, this year I'll be there.
• 51:09
  Jill Purce: On the 25th of July till the 29th.
• 51:14
  Jill Purce: Yeah.
• 51:14
  Jill Purce: Brilliant.
• 51:14
  Jill Purce: So if
• 51:14
  Tracy Cartwright: anyone's in Canada or or heading that way, that would be something to aim for.
• 51:19
  Jill Purce: Yes.
• 51:20
  Jill Purce: And it's a beautiful place and it's, and and I love working there.
• 51:23
  Jill Purce: It's really fun.
• 51:24
  Jill Purce: So that's in July, the end of July this year.
• 51:27
  Jill Purce: 20, what did I say?
• 51:28
  Jill Purce: 25th of July till the 29th.
• 51:31
  Jill Purce: Yeah.
• 51:31
  Jill Purce: Oh,
• 51:31
  Tracy Cartwright: wonderful.
• 51:32
  Tracy Cartwright: Wonderful.
• 51:33
  Tracy Cartwright: Well, it's been such a pleasure to chat with you and, um.
• 51:38
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, just to, to receive so many nuggets of wisdom and insight and yeah, to have you here as a guest.
• 51:46
  Tracy Cartwright: It's been amazing.
• 51:47
  Tracy Cartwright: Thank you, Jill.
• 51:48
  Jill Purce: Yeah, pleasure.
• 51:50
  Tracy Cartwright: So for those who, um, who want to check out Jill's website, we'll place the links into the comments and yeah, check out this amazing work that Jill is doing bringing through to me.
• 52:01
  Tracy Cartwright: Join me,
• 52:01
  Jill Purce: please join me online or join me in person.
• 52:05
  Jill Purce: Fantastic.
• 52:05
  Jill Purce: Thank you tra that's a, a great pleasure to be with you in, in New Zealand.
• 52:11
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes.
• 52:12
  Tracy Cartwright: Technology.
• 52:13
  Tracy Cartwright: Isn't that amazing?
• 52:15
  Tracy Cartwright: Thank you.
• 52:16
  Jill Purce: Yeah, you are very welcome.