Latest / The Defender Podcast / Integrating Faith and Education: A Conversation with Dr. David Dockery

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Integrating Faith and Education: A Conversation with Dr. David Dockery · The Defender Podcast

• 0:03
  Herbie Newell: Welcome to the defender podcast, a resource to help mobilize and equip the body of Christ to manifest the gospel to orphans and vulnerable children. This podcast is a ministry of Lifeline Children Services, and I'm your host, Herbie Newell.
• 0:18
  Rick Morton: Welcome back to the defender podcast. This is Rick Morton. Today is July 31, 2024. Today, we're gonna be sharing an interview that I, recorded with doctor David Dockery at the Southern Baptist Convention. Doctor.
• 0:32
  Dockery is a member of our pastoral advisory board and he shares an appreciation for Lifeline Children Services and and also joins us in our mission to support vulnerable children and families with the gospel. Doctor Dockery in this interview highlights his involvement with the International Alliance For Christian Education, IACE. And the aim of IACE is to unify and strengthen Christian education from pre k through PhD levels. We had an opportunity to talk and and we touched on a wide variety of subjects, including the need to, integrate our biblical worldview into all aspects of education and really all of our lives. Countering fragmentation and compartmentalization that's seen often in higher education.
• 1:19
  And and just the the challenges particularly that are faced by Christian social workers, and the importance of maintaining a gospel centered approach to their work, like we do here at Lifeline. And so, we really talk a little bit about theological education and where that fits and and how that relates to our our quest as believers to to bring justice ministry to the world. Doctor Dockery is the 10th president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. He's been the president since September of 2022. He serves as distinguished professor of theology and executive editor of the Southwestern Journal of Theology.
• 2:00
  He's also the director of the Dockery Center, for Global Evangelical Theology. He is absolutely one of the the most significant leaders I believe in Evangelicalism and is a senior statesman in the world of Christian higher education, but really in, in conservative Christian circles in general. And so we're, we're so thankful to have had this opportunity to get a little time with Doctor. Dockery to talk. We're also really thankful for his friendship and his involvement, with us as a member of our pastoral advisory board and in providing counsel and accountability to us, as a ministry.
• 2:38
  Before we get to that interview, we're gonna talk a little bit about mid year. We're at the mid year point of our year. We're a little past it here at the end of July. And so as we have moved past the the midpoint in this year, you know, what an incredible journey it's been. What a journey it's been for us here at Lifeline.
• 2:55
  We've seen incredible growth. We've we've seen incredible stories, countless lives that have been touched by our mission to provide love and care to vulnerable children and vulnerable families in the name of Jesus. As we reflect on the first half of the year, we're reminded that our work is far from over. There's still many children who need our help and we cannot do what we do without your support. Today, we're asking for your partnership to continue our vital work.
• 3:19
  Your donations, enable us to provide critical services from adoption to foster care to family preservation, to global orphan care. Every contribution, no matter the size, makes a significant impact. We'd like to ask you to join us, in making the second half of this year even more impactful than the first. You can do that by visiting lifelinechild.org backslash donate, to give today. Together, we can continue to bring the gospel and hope, and transformation that can only be had through Jesus to children and families in need.
• 3:53
  We wanna thank you for your generous support and for being a part of the Lifeline family. And so today, now let's dive into our episode with doctor David Dockery. Alright. Good morning from the Southern Baptist Convention. It's Tuesday morning and I'm here with Doctor.
• 4:09
  David Dockery in the Lifeline booth. And we have an opportunity to be able to sit down and have a little bit of a talk together. Doctor Dockery, welcome.
• 4:19
  Dr. David Dockery: Well, it's a joy to be here. Thank you for the invitation. I'm looking forward to our conversation today and grateful for all the good things that, Lifeline Children Services is doing. They're not only in Birmingham and in Alabama but across the country.
• 4:34
  Rick Morton: Well, thank you. We, one of the things that that folks may not know is that, you're actually a part of our our pastoral advisory board.
• 4:43
  Dr. David Dockery: And I'm honored by that invitation. When, Herb Renewal contacted me about such an invitation, I was, surprised, but deeply honored. I thought about it for a bit. And, you know, this is something I can help with in some way. I've served on far too many boards, so I don't need another one to serve on.
• 5:07
  But, the more I found out about Lifeline, the more I believed in what you were doing in such a significant and distinctive ministry. So to to be able to support it in any way, to provide encouragement, I'm delighted and honored to do so.
• 5:26
  Rick Morton: Well, I think we we were incredibly honored when you agreed to join us and and agreed to to be a voice to to speak in and hold us accountable, quite honestly, to the mission that we believe that the Lord's placed in front of us to mobilize the church into ministry, to care for orphan and vulnerable children and for vulnerable families, and, you know, really believe that a pro life ethic requires that we have a whole life pro life view.
• 5:58
  Dr. David Dockery: Right.
• 6:00
  Rick Morton: And frankly, and I will say to you with great gratitude, you have been our teacher in many, many ways through books and through, sermons and through speeches and things that you've done over the years. And so when it was a big thrill to us when you agreed to come and be part of us because we felt like although we're just getting to know you, we felt like we knew you through all the things that the Lord's produced through you. And so it's been a great joy of ours to be able to begin this friendship and begin this relationship this way.
• 6:38
  Dr. David Dockery: Well, thank you. It's it's a special delight. I mean, I I love the fact that you're in my home state in in Alabama. So that
• 6:47
  Rick Morton: Roll Tide.
• 6:48
  Dr. David Dockery: Yeah. Roll Tide is right. So we'll we'll sneak that one in. I don't know if that's allowed or not.
• 6:53
  Rick Morton: But there'll be a few folks who may be mad with us, but they but truly, if they follow if they follow either one of us on Twitter, they they know already. So
• 7:01
  Dr. David Dockery: So but, I know that they have such a significant footprint and influence there locally. But in recent years, you know, it's expanded far beyond that. And so that excites me. And so both so for both of those reasons, because of the local influence of a place that I dearly love and because of the opportunities to, you know, bring this message and this ministry and this influence such in broader categories, I'm I'm honored to, you know, have a small small part.
• 7:41
  Rick Morton: Well, one of the things that the Lord has has done, with you in in recent years is is really a more of a meta concern for theological education.
• 7:53
  Dr. David Dockery: Right.
• 7:55
  Rick Morton: And although folks know most prominently in Southern Baptist life right now as as you're leading Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, you also have a leadership role and and a a prominent role in a in a much larger organization and gathering of of theological education institutions. And so maybe you could tell the folks that are
• 8:18
  Dr. David Dockery: that are
• 8:18
  Rick Morton: listening a little bit about about what it is that the Lord has has birthed in that. Yeah.
• 8:22
  Dr. David Dockery: Well, almost 5 years ago, the International Alliance For Christian Education was birthed, it started. And, we now have about 90 different institutional members, another 30 or so organizational partners like Lifeline, who, you know, are not necessarily in the degree granting space, but are part of seeking to educate the body of Christ in some way and prepare them for, a holistic Christian worldview ministry. And so we're thankful for your partnership there as well. But the International Alliance For Christian Education works to live into the second word in our name. It's an alliance more than an organization, Trying to connect people, so that we can unify, strengthen, and synergize the work of Christian education at all levels.
• 9:14
  We say, you know, we describe ourselves in 2 different ways from pre k to PhD or from Sunday school to seminary. You kinda think about all those different things that fall in between. But, we we have institutions from every region of the country, some small institutions, some larger ones, Some of the biggest colleges and universities in the country, Biola, Colorado Christian University, Liberty University, as well as several Southern Baptist related schools. And then a whole host of seminary as well. Dallas Theological Seminary, Reformed Theological Seminary, Talbot Seminary, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, the 6 Southern Baptist Seminary.
• 10:00
  So it's a broad network. And really from the northeast to the, you know, far southwest corner of California, we, have representation in addition to a number of international schools. And so we're all working together, recognizing the challenges facing Christian education and theological education at this time. And recognizing that for the most part we're siloed. Right.
• 10:27
  These organizations are siloed from the institutions. The institutions are segmented off into Bible colleges, and gap year programs, and Christian universities, and seminaries. And now we have this conversation going across lines, and we're working together on things that are important for all of us, and making ourselves aware of all the challenges that we all face similarly, even in all of our differences.
• 10:53
  Rick Morton: Well, and I love I love the fact that that the Association's goal or reason for existing is, is to bring a biblical worldview to bear across the curriculum. Exactly. And so for the folks that are listening to us, so that we don't run off into academic speak and lose you, what we're saying is that these institutions are banding together to associate together because they believe that a Biblical worldview should permeate everything that they do and everything that they teach, in a way that unifies the curriculum through a perspective of filtering everything through God's word and from a godly perspective.
• 11:41
  Dr. David Dockery: Exactly. And so one of the big challenges in higher education at every level these days, and even for K through 12 education, is the tendency towards specialization. Right. And the tendency towards specialization creates compartmentalization so that people might know something or know a lot about a very small slice of knowledge, and they're unable to connect the dots. And so one things that IECE wants to do is to connect the dots and help people understand that whether you're coming at this from a standpoint of English or economics or biology or business or from, you know, theological education or professional education, preparing for the marketplace, whatever it is, what holds us together is a recognition that all truth finds its source in God.
• 12:35
  That's right. And that Jesus Christ is holding all things together by His powerful word. And so by holding all things together, there must be a connection of this truth that comes from God for all of us. And so it gets us out of our silos, it gets us to think beyond our areas of expertise. Say, okay, how does what we're saying and thinking and what we're learning here connect with what's going on over here.
• 13:08
  And so we try to ask these broader questions to say, everybody, okay, let's take a big step back. So we understand that there are bigger questions behind your search for knowledge in this particular field. And I think it's been very helpful for people and kind of been an moment for a lot of faculty members even who have, you know, gone through PhD programs and know everything there is to know
• 13:33
  Rick Morton: about About a very small
• 13:34
  Dr. David Dockery: small piece of knowledge and said, woah. There's something bigger here, particularly from a Christian vantage point. That now, oh, education makes sense. And it helps our students begin to help to make sense of the world. Right?
• 13:50
  Because it's, you know, it's crumbling around them, right? And so they can ask the question, you know, who am I? Where did we come from? What's gone wrong with the world? Now we have an answer to to help them think through those things.
• 14:03
  And beyond that, we have a solution and a hope, in Jesus Christ.
• 14:07
  Rick Morton: Well, and I think sometimes we don't recognize the toll that that fragmentation and compartmentalization has taken on our entire world and about how much it influences and and really limits sometimes the thinking that we have and those around us have when we so narrowly define and so sharply disconnect various parts of our world. And so for Lifeline, the reason to be engaged in IACE and the reason that we were excited to come alongside and to be a partner alongside these institutions is we feel the brunt of this in as we're recruiting particularly Social Service staff and Social Workers. And so, I think if you talk to any of our Social Workers and they talk to you about their academic experience, what they're going to tell you is, is that their faith was challenged at every point along the way, even in the most deeply Christian institutions that they came from, Because the discipline of social work has become has become so removed from faith, has been so disconnected from faith, which is funny because we know that it was born in a Christian, you know, realm. But the fact is that there's a very intentional work that's going on in the world of Social Work, particularly in the world of Social Work education, that really pits the discipline of Social Work against Christianity.
• 15:55
  And so for a ministry like Lifeline, we are in the process always of doing the hard work of helping, as my friend Bill Brown used to use, I'll use the term that he coined, to help our social workers to think worldviewishly. That's exactly right. You know, and so there's such a dramatic importance in them doing the work that they do with the basis that they've been given in their profession, but filtering that through the grid of a biblical worldview.
• 16:29
  Dr. David Dockery: And so Helps them to see things completely differently than the way they did before. And they can still, you know, live out their concerns, their desire for mercy ministries, to reflect, what James calls pure and undefiled religion, to care for widows and orphans, but to to do this from the right motivation in the right way with a a more holistic understanding of the world.
• 17:01
  Rick Morton: That's right.
• 17:02
  Dr. David Dockery: And just to see what's gone wrong in the world is not just because of social and systemic things viewed through the quasi Marxist lens, but viewed instead through a biblical framework. And, you know, you can take the teachings of Jesus and teachings of the the apostles, Paul and James. I do not think they are at odds and, and and find ways to bring specific application to that kind of work and particularly to the kind of work that Lifeline's doing. That excites me to be part of
• 17:39
  Rick Morton: the work. And we take things like the observations of developmental psychology or the observations of folks that are working in trauma informed work, you know, in particular. And, but we filter those through the understanding that many of the things that those theorists believe about the world are not correct, that they're, that the things that they've observed, and the things that they've seen, and the things that they seek to explain by their theory, those things are real. But the explanation that they've created for them is many times very, very poor
• 18:20
  Herbie Newell: because they
• 18:20
  Rick Morton: many times quite honestly they're coming from a foreclosed position that they believe that there isn't a God. And they're slamming their findings in order to be able to reinforce that. And so as a Christian, we have to come back and sort of take all of those things and put them back out on the table and reorganize them in ways that fit with what the scriptures reveal to us about truth, about who God is and about the world that He's created, And as you said about even the fundamental reasons for why things are broken and wrong because of sin.
• 18:53
  Dr. David Dockery: Yes. As you well know, 100 years or so ago in the early part of 20th century, we had a great divide in the body of Christ between those who claim to hold to the gospel and those who held to a social gospel. And because of that, there's been tension in the application of those things for years. And so what happened was, sadly, the social gospel lost the gospel. Right.
• 19:21
  And those who wanted to hold on to the gospel became afraid of the social implications of the gospel. That's right. So they didn't wanna fall into that trap that others had done. And so we're picking up the pieces, you know, play Humpty Dumpty out here of things that went on a couple of generations back and now trying to come together. And so your mission calls for us to manifest these things and hold the you know, use the gospel as the way of connecting to the social challenges, particularly as it relates to vulnerable children.
• 20:00
  So I think overcoming, those issues of a 100 years ago, you know, which are still in the back of our minds are are things that we have to keep in, you know, keep before us cause we certainly don't wanna run and make the same mistake of those generations. But we also don't want to, in our desire to protect truth and protect the gospel, miss the implications and applications of the gospel for the world in which we live. How did you do well?
• 20:31
  Rick Morton: You beautifully summed up the both the tension and the crisis. I think we, you know, we recognize at this fact there are many of us that have grown up in evangelical churches that have gone through evangelical seminaries even that are pastoring, that were never really confronted with the the social implications and the justice implications of the gospel because because the world that we grew up in was so scared of the social Gospel, we just ran completely away from it and shut the door. And so today, now, perhaps the crisis that we face is that as evangelicals we're being looked at by the rest of the world as disconnected and as people who have a faith that doesn't work because we're somewhat tone deaf to issues of justice. And the irony of the whole thing is that God is the creator and the arbiter of justice, the gospel is all about justice, and the fact that we are in, we are unjust, and we are broken, and we're sinful, and we're but that.
• 21:47
  Dr. David Dockery: Yeah, so Paul argues in Romans chapter 3 that God is both the, is just and the justifier. There you go. And so you've got to hold those two things together, Romans 324.
• 21:58
  Rick Morton: And so we, you know, and so I think the thing is, and you know quite frankly Doctor. Dockery, one of the things we've seen in orphan care circles around the world is that there's a really troubling pattern that when Gospel centered ministries come together to begin to relate around the task of caring for orphan and vulnerable children, there's a fairly consistent pattern that's happened that's where eventually our sights drop. And there's a beginning point that we can look back to where we all rally around the fact that the Gospel is preeminent and that we do the things that we do in order to bring people to know and to follow Jesus, but at some point we become overwhelmed by the need and become distracted and the conversation starts to shift inevitably to, well, how can we help more children? How can we stabilize more homes? How can we feed more people?
• 23:00
  How can we how can we do those things, none of which are bad things, but none of which are ultimate things. And I think one of the things Lifeline is committed to, one of the things we're committed to globally, is a gathering and a rallying of the church around the world to do the work of
• 23:18
  Dr. David Dockery: orphan care, but to do it with
• 23:18
  Rick Morton: the gospel in view, and accountable to the fact that we don't slip, that we don't that accountable to the fact that we don't slip, that we don't veer off the trail, and that we remain faithful to the gospel. And I think part of that, and part of what I've heard all over the world is that one of the missing pieces is theological education. And so the refrain is that that we're having trouble you know keeping the church engaged in this area and keeping the church engaged for Gospel reasons because it's not an integrated part of the theology of the people that are leading our churches. And so that's part of our reason for wanting to be you know engaged and involved in IACE, but I know that's something that resonates with you. Oh, completely.
• 24:12
  And and so I just would, I'd be curious as as to, you know, what you think the future is, what's the solution, how do we, how do we begin to rethink our view of our core theology in a way that, that helps us to integrate our need to be about the work of Justice and Mercy.
• 24:31
  Dr. David Dockery: Yeah, so I think we have to, to recognize the, the, the importance of thinking, Christian world Christian worldview framework. And then to learn how to not only think about those things, but then to do those things, to live them out, to think and live Christianly. We need both of those things. And so the work of theological education is more than learning how to do basic exegesis so that you can preach a sermon. Right.
• 25:05
  You know, that that's first and foremost of a pastoral responsibility. But it's not the end of that. And if you do that without giving a larger theological framework and then the worldview implications of that, then you never can help the people in the pew, you know, connect these dots to their lives, to the concerns they see about them and how they can actually do what they want to do, which is they're motivated to serve and help and, you know, show grace and mercy to those who are in need. Right. I really don't know how or where.
• 25:48
  And so I think we have to do a better job of that at the theological education level. So the churches can do a better job and that we can find partnerships that, bring these opportunities together, which is the one thing I love about IECE, if I can circle back to where we started. Absolutely. Because that that it's it it is the organization that I know of. There are others, but that's trying to build this network that connects institutions and organizations together, where we can find the partners necessary because none of us can do everything by ourselves.
• 26:26
  That's right. And so we need each other. We need the body of Christ, to in order to help pull this off. And so it's the reason I love having Lifeline to be a part of that, and I love the privilege you've given me to be a part of Lifeline.
• 26:39
  Rick Morton: Well, I, one of the reasons that I, on this podcast that I really wanted us to talk about IACE is that, that we do have a lot of folks that listen to our podcasts that are involved in ministry around the world and many of them are connected to colleges and Bible Colleges and Seminaries in all parts of the world. And I think we want to sort of, you know, sound the gong for IACE to say if you're involved in one of the schools around the world, this is an organization that that we believe is vitally important for schools to become a part of because it's really the place where Bible believing, worldview thinking schools are coming together to associate, to make one another better, to provide a spirit of accountability. There is a thing that is happening in this that is unprecedented in our world, and I think at a time when we're, you know, truth is up for grabs and there's a war on truth, it's more important than ever that we band together and are working collaboratively to determine the ways that we're going to protect truth, that we're going to teach people to think.
• 28:05
  And I think when you and so for I just know from my own experience from, you know, from teaching here and teaching around the world, that being on an island is not a good place to be. And so having the fellowship and having the relationship with other institutions and that is vitally important. So if you know of a college, if you're an alumnus of a college or seminary here in the U. S, one question I'd ask you to ask them is are they part of IACE? If you're connected to a church that's connected to a seminary somewhere around the world, I'd ask them are they a part of IACE?
• 28:45
  And if they're not, then, if you can contact Doctor. Dockery or you can you can reach out to us at Lifeline and we can we can help you find the pathway to getting them to, you know, to find a way to be a part of that institution.
• 28:59
  Dr. David Dockery: Right, so go to iace.education.
• 29:03
  Rick Morton: Iace.education. Yeah, That'll get you
• 29:06
  Dr. David Dockery: to the website and then you can follow from there. So that would be great. But you know, one of the things that we're, you know, the, this whole thing is a sanctity of life, connection, but sanctity of life is more than the abortion question. Right. It's, we want to think holistically.
• 29:27
  Certainly, we want to stand against abortion, but there are other issues related to families, children, vulnerable children, adoption, end of life issues that fall under this whole umbrella sanctity of life ethic. And so that's what we want to be a part of. And you can't develop a holistic sanctity of life ethic. I don't wanna sound like a broken record here, but without having a broader Christian worldview framework to do it because otherwise Absolutely. You're all you're trying to do is put the missing pieces together in a puzzle without understanding where the borders are, the framework, or the overall picture you're looking for.
• 30:09
  Rick Morton: That's absolutely correct. And I I think, you know, as we, you know, kind of as we close, I think the maybe the question I would ask you to wind up our time is for those that are church leaders that are out there listening to us that are thinking in terms of their relationship in their church to the cause of caring for orphan or vulnerable children, why is it important that their church do this work in this day?
• 30:45
  Dr. David Dockery: Well, I think it's important, 1, because, the Bible calls for us to do it. The James one, we've already appealed to that important chapter, but, the teachings of Jesus, teachings of Paul. So start with the biblical instruction first and foremost. Secondly, because God calls for us to engage the world, to engage the culture, and to find different ways to plug in. So this doesn't mean that everybody has to do this.
• 31:19
  Right. But everyone needs to find ways to help support this. Right. And find out who who is doing it, how can I pray for them, how can I encourage them, how can we make, bring awareness of this to our congregation so that those who are interested, you know, know that there is a place which their service has an avenue to proceed? And so I think, understanding the biblical mandate, understand the need for overall awareness, and 3, to put some real practical steps together.
• 31:52
  And 4, to make these kinda connections that are needed between organizations, institutions, and churches so that we don't live siloed and never carry out the god's call upon our lives in the holistic way He desires for us to do it.
• 32:10
  Rick Morton: And Doctor. Dockery, as we close, let me let me say that that is that is not just an answer that you project for the rest of the world, but thank you for doing that yourself. And the evidence of that is this conversation that we're having now and the relationship that we've been able to forge, around Lifeline and IACE and the things that the Lord's put in your hands. So thank you so much for your friendship, thanks for joining us. Thank you.
• 32:36
  And we look forward to many more conversations in the future, Lord willing.
• 32:40
  Dr. David Dockery: I'll look forward to that. May the Lord be with you. Thank you.
• 32:47
  Herbie Newell: Thanks for listening to the Defender Podcast. If you enjoy making this podcast a part of your weekly routine, we'd love for you to take a moment to subscribe, rate, and review the Defender Podcast to make it easier for more people to find. For more information on how you and your church can partner with Lifeline, visit us at lifelinechild.org. If you want to connect with me, please visit herbynewell.com.
• 33:09
  Follow us at lifeline on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter by searching for Lifeline Child. You can email us directly at info at lifelinechild.org. Beloved, will you allow god to use the gospel to you to impact the life of a child? Please contact us because we are here to defend the fatherless. We'll see you again next week for the Defender podcast.