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Is A Billionaire Bromance Capturing Our Media? · Question Everything

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: It's January 21st, 2025, the very first full day of
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump's second term. Trump's hosting an event at the
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: White House to announce the launch of something called Stargate,
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: a joint venture between a bunch of companies to build
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: a network of AI data centers across the country. And
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: one of the guests who shows up for it is
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: Larry Ellison, the co-founder and executive chairman of Oracle. Oracle
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: sells computing services to businesses like cloud infrastructure, but in
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: recent years has moved into supporting AI through data centers.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: And it's one of the core companies involved in Stargate,
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: a $ 500 billion project. So this Stargate announcement at the
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: White House was a big deal. But there was a
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: little problem.
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: Larry Ellison didn't have his passport and he did not
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: have a government issued ID with him.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: This is Emily Glazer, a reporter at The Wall Street Journal,
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: who defines her beat as the rich and powerful. She
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: and some of her colleagues are the ones who found
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: out about this story. Everyone needs an ID to get
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: into the White House, whether you're worth 150-something billion dollars
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: like Larry Ellison or you're a regular family on vacation
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: just going on a tour. Secret service rules. Can you
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: imagine having flown somewhere and not having a single ID
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: on you? I guess that happens when you're flying private, huh?
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: You don't need to go through security.
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: You know, I have to say like there was a
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: part of a recent book about meta where there was
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: a scene where Mark Zuckerberg also didn't have his passport
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: at like a critical juncture. So I'm not forgiving billionaires
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: and the wealthiest people in the world for not walking
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: around with their like government issued IDs like the rest
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: of us, right? But, you know, here they are. And
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: Larry Ellison does not have a photo ID that is
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: appropriate to get him into the White House. He shows up.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: He's waiting to get into the White House. There is
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: definitely a delay.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: One thing leads to another.
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: The president is called. And President Trump personally intervened to
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: get Larry Ellison through. He told security, quote, everyone knows
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: who Larry is. And Larry Ellison was ultimately escorted into
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: the Roosevelt Room without the typical security process.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: When Emily heard this anecdote from her sources about Donald
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: Trump and Larry Ellison, something about it struck her.
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: The way it was so informal and it was like
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: Trump's just like helping get his friend through. It's like, oh, no,
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: he's at my house. Like, wave him in. Well, that
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: house happens to be the White House, which happens to
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: have like probably some of the most security ever.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: With his guest of honor in the building, President Trump
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: enters the Roosevelt Room to start the unveiling.
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: Nice to see you. Some very familiar faces.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: Next to him is OpenAI CEO Sam Altman, also SoftBank
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: CEO Masayoshi San. But based on how Trump's talking, Larry
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: Ellison might as well be the only guy in the room.
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: It's my honor to welcome three of the world's leading
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: technology CEOs. And in the case of Larry, Larry Ellison,
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: it's well beyond technology. He's sort of CEO of everything.
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: He's an amazing man and an amazing business person.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: Ellison is 81 years old now. And in recent years,
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: unlike some other founders and billionaires, he's been less flashy
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: and avoided the spotlight. So it was special to have
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: him there. Ellison even said some words.
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: Thank you, Mr.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: President. We certainly couldn't do this without you. It would
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: simply be impossible. AI holds incredible promise for all of us,
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: for every American. which the president seemed to appreciate.
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: For Larry to be here and do this is very
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: unusual because he doesn't do this stuff. He doesn't need it.
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: He did a very good job for a guy that
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: doesn't do it much, right?
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: Dare I say you hear a real fondness in Trump's
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: voice for Larry Ellison? Admiration, even? This whole scene at
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: the White House, it jives with something a source had
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: said to Emily about these two men.
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: I remember hearing from someone actually multiple people, I should say,
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: who said that Larry Ellison and Trump are genuinely friends.
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: And I was like, what? What do you mean, like,
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: they're friends?
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: Emily spends every day reporting on the wealthiest people in
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: the world. She's won a Pulitzer for it. But the
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: way these sources were talking about Larry Ellison and Donald
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: Trump was different.
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: How they just really get along. Their ideologies are very similar.
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: They enjoy speaking with each other. And I was just
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: so stuck on this because we don't usually have insights
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: into friendships, or at least I don't. I hear a
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: lot more about business transactions. I often write about the
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: money changing hands, you know, the favors. But you don't
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: really hear about those people having actual friendships. Usually there
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: isn't also this extra layer of like, oh, and they
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: really like talking to each other. I don't know. I
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: was very drawn into that.
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: Trump and Ellison's relationship is important to know more about
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: because as we've touched on here on the show, in
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: the president's second term, Ellison has amassed significant power over
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: the media world. Last year, Larry Ellison financed his son
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: David's purchase of Paramount and along with it CBS News.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: Now they're aiming to acquire Warner Brothers Discovery. That deal
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: got put on pause last week due to an antitrust
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: suit from 12 states. But if it goes through, the
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: Ellisons would also control CNN. And earlier this year, the
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: Trump administration brokered a deal that handed Larry Ellison's company
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: Oracle a major stake in TikTok. Some of the biggest
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: brands in media all landing or poised to land in
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: the hands of one family within two years of the
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: president's term. A family that seems awfully cozy with the
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: president and could do his bidding. And in fact, there's
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: been a lot of evidence of that at CBS News
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: in 60 Minutes since David Ellison took over. So Emily
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: took the tips she got about Larry Ellison and Donald
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: Trump being legit pals and with the help of two
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: of her colleagues, dug into it. What new info could
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: they find out about this relationship? Are they actually friends?
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: And then we are the Wall Street Journal. We needed
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: to know what the money situation was.
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: You pitched a buddy comedy to your editors and they
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: were like, sure, but you need the money too.
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: Something like that.
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: Turns out there was also way more money involved in
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: the relationship between these two than anyone in the public knew.
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: From Placement Theory and KCRW, I'm Brian Reed. This is
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: Question Everything. We investigate how the truth gets buried, distorted,
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: and denied, and the ways people are fighting to make
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: it matter again. Stick around. Donald Trump may think everyone
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: knows who Larry Ellison is, but in case you don't,
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: Ellison was born to a 19-year-old single mother in 1944
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: and adopted at nine months old by his aunt and
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: uncle in Chicago. He was a star science student, dropped
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: out of college, founded Oracle in 1977 to make databases
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: for companies. He took it public in 1986, was CEO
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: till 2014. Ellison has been married at least five times.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: I say at least because the reporting on this varies.
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: I guess when you're married that many times, you can
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: lose count. Like President Trump, Ellison doesn't drink. He's a
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: competitive sailor, a connoisseur of Van Gogh paintings and Japanese
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: feudal architecture. He owns all but 2% of the Hawaiian
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: island of Lanai. Emily told me he also flies fighter jets.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: So there is this like urban legend that Larry Ellison
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: once flew a jet under the Golden Gate Bridge in
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: the middle of the night. And like crazy thing.
• 7:48
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: I cannot confirm or deny this.
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: This was back in the early 2000s. Charlie Rose asked
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: Ellison about it on 60 Minutes in 2004.
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: There is the story that you once flew a plane.
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: Under the Golden Gate Bridge. There is that story. Did
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: you do that? Well, Charlie, that would be against the rules.
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: That would be against aviation rules. Of course not. If
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: you did it, would you acknowledge it?
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: No, sir.
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: What kind of plane would you have done it in
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: if you had done it? If I had done it?
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: I have a couple of fighter planes.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: Both of those would have been good choices. That episode
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: was called The Most Competitive Man in the World. Kind
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: of funny that it's from 60 Minutes, which Ellison's son
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: just bought. When it comes to politics, Ellison has supported
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: Democrats and Republicans over the years, including, interestingly, Republicans who've
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: opposed Trump. I was reminded by Emily that as recently
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: as 2023, Ellison backed a candidate who was challenging Trump
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: in the Republican primary for president, South Carolina Senator Tim Scott.
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: Emily says Senator Scott and Ellison are tight.
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: Tim Scott and his family have visited Larry Ellison's Hawaiian
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: Island a couple of times. They've stayed, like, at the
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: compound there, not the hotel, which is an important distinction
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: in my eyes because it's like that shows, you know,
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: a degree of closeness. But when it became clear that
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump was going to be the Republican nominee— Larry
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: Ellison shifted.
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: He threw himself behind Trump, tried to convince him to
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: pick Scott as his VP, which obviously didn't pan out.
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: But Trump won, and there Larry Ellison was, by the
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: first day of Trump's new presidency, being waved through the
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: security gates to announce Stargate and be praised warmly by
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: the president. I'm just trying to get my head around
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: this because Trump is so vindictive and prizes loyalty so much.
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: So to think that Larry Ellison was supporting, you know,
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: an opponent of Trump's in the primary... How did it
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: go from that to this close, special friendship?
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: $ 45 million, baby.
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: As Emily and her co-reporters were delving into Trump and
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: Ellison's relationship, they found that there was a good old-fashioned
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: transaction that helped soften any hard feelings that may have
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: come from Ellison not riding with Trump from the start
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: for 2024. Around this time....
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: Larry Ellison cuts a roughly $ 45 million check, checks toward
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: President Trump's campaign. He gives $ 45 million. And from what
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: we hear, that really smoothed things over.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: The $ 45 million went to a nonprofit political group supporting
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: Trump's election. And it was secret.
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: So a lot of the giving, and this is not
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: just new for President Trump, this has been going on
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: for several cycles now, is dark money, right? Money we
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: can't track. This does not exist in federal election commission filings.
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: Trust me, I have manually gone through a lot of these.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: I wanted to make sure I didn't miss anything. And
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: so this is money that is given toward a vehicle
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: or a group that is supporting President Trump's reelection that
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: does not need to be disclosed.
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: And you guys uncovered this?
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: We did, yes. I couldn't tell you exactly when the
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: wiring went through. I don't have the receipt, but we
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: know it, you know, dead to rights that this did
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: indeed happen and that it has not been previously reported.
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: Emily and her colleagues Jessica Tunkel and Annie Linsky uncovered
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: this information by interviewing dozens of people close to Donald
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: Trump and to Larry Ellison, or people aware of information
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: about them. And the dark money donation they discovered, it
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: is legal. Since the Supreme Court's Citizens United decision in 2010,
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: donations like these have become far more common and a
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: lot harder to track. Because, like Emily said, groups like
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: the one Ellison donated to, they don't have to disclose
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: who's giving them money. The nonpartisan Brennan Center for Justice
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: has tried to estimate at least some amount of the
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: money those groups have spent. And they've come to about
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: $ 4. 3 billion between 2010 and the 2024 presidential election. Though
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: it's probably a lot more.
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: So.
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: Larry Ellison gave $ 45 million to this group supporting Trump,
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: and from there, their friendship seemed to blossom. Emily's sources
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: kept telling her, they're genuine buddies. Ellison even moved to
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: the Palm Beach area in Florida and visits Mar-a-Lago. Plus,
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: he and Trump speak regularly on the phone.
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: So that's a big part of their friendship.
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: How regularly? Do you have a sense of how regularly
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: they talk on the phone?
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: Someone told me, like, all the time. And I'm like,
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: what does that mean?
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: Okay, yeah. What does that mean?
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: I think it's not infrequent.
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: Not infrequent.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: And I kept hearing over and over again that they
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: had these shared ideological beliefs. I have been told that
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: they talk about their support of Israel. That was something
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: they really bonded over. They both have had a close
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: relationship with Netanyahu. Oh, and they like have this shared
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: ideology around like legacy media. It's no secret how Trump
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: feels about some parts of the media. Larry Ellison, much
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: earlier in his career, I think felt kind of like
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: wronged by the media. And so I think that's something
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: that they bonded over.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: There are instances from over the years where Ellison was
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: clearly upset about coverage of him. Like in 2010, Fortune
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: ran a story that mentioned a sexual harassment suit a
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: woman had filed against Ellison. She lost the suit and
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: the reporter included that fact in the story, but Ellison
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: didn't think it was highlighted enough. He wrote the reporter
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: an email tearing him a new one with the subject line, hey, jerk.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: Ellison once gave an economist editor access to write a
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: book about him, and he negotiated something I've never heard
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: of before, which I thought was telling. In-line rebuttal rights. Basically,
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: Ellison was allowed to read the book before publication and
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: add any footnotes he wanted to challenge the author's account.
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: Each footnote began L.E. Rights. As Ellison once told an interviewer,
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: the media feels it's their job to make sure they
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: destroy anyone who gets larger than life. We have become
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: egalitarian individuals. to the point that we do not like heroes.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: You can definitely imagine Trump and Ellison kvetching over the
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: mean old media on one of their not infrequent phone calls.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: Another thing that came through in this reporting was how
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: Larry is almost like a class above a lot of
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: the other business leaders where you'll see a lot of
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: these dinners, especially with a lot of tech executives that
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: are like flanking Trump when a lot of these big
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: announcements and, you know, various events where they're saying very
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: nice things about President Trump. Larry Ellison is not often
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: at those.
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: The Stargate event was an exception. You may remember when
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: a bunch of tech execs joined President Trump for dinner
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: at the White House in September of last year and
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: went around the table one by one praising Trump, who
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: was basking in it in front of the cameras. OpenAI
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: CEO Sam Altman. Thank you for being such a pro-business,
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: pro-innovation president. It's a very refreshing change. Bill Gates of Microsoft.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: Thank you for incredible leadership. Tim Cook of Apple. It's
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: incredible to be among everyone here, particularly you and the
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: First Lady. Larry Ellison was not there.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: And what I was told in this reporting is, like,
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: he's basically better than that. Like, he doesn't have to
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: show up. Like, he just goes so much far beyond that.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: He doesn't need to be seen, like, photographed. sitting at
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: Trump's side, like the positions they're all like jockeying for,
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: their friendship and the way they communicate is a little
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: bit more private. And to me, that shows perhaps an
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: even deeper rapport.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: And that deeper rapport certainly appeared to be useful as
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: Larry Ellison and his son started making big moves in
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: the media industry. We'll get to that story including something
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: Emily discovered that Larry Ellison's son David did behind the
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: scenes during one of these media deals that was previously unknown.
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: After a quick break. I don't know if you followed
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: the Skydance-Paramount merger closely. Last year, Larry Ellison's son David
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: set about trying to buy the storied media conglomerate Paramount
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: for $ 8 billion. Paramount owns CBS, CBS News, and 60 Minutes.
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: David Ellison was doing this deal through his company Skydance,
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: the studio behind Mission Impossible and Top Gun, with his dad, Larry,
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: footing much of the bill. David has big ambitions to
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: build one of the top movie studios and streamers in
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: the world, and he needed sign-off for the Paramount purchase
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: from the federal government, the Federal Communications Commission, the FCC.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: But there was a wrinkle. President Trump was suing Paramount...
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: claiming that 60 Minutes unfairly edited an interview with Kamala
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: Harris during the presidential election that he said made her
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: look better.
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: CBS is no good. And in fact, in honor of you,
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: I just sued CBS today because of 60 Minutes. They
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: should lose their license, which is worth billions of dollars.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: It was an insane lawsuit. It's hard to imagine it
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: ever squeaking past the First Amendment. Paramount and 60 Minutes
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: should have fought it. But in this case, Paramount needed
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: something from the guy who was suing them, or at
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: least from an agency he had power over, regulatory approval
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: for the Ellison deal to go through. All of this
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: is known and has been reported on. We've reported on
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: it here. But Emily and her colleagues found out something
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: previously unknown that David did during this period.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: So as things often do in this administration, there was
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: a UFC event that became a prime moment.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: This was in Miami last April, not the more recent
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: UFC event at the White House. Trump was there.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: And making the entrance right now to a standing ovation,
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: the 47th president of the United States of America. David
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: Ellison meets with Trump at the UFC event. In fact,
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: the two of them were photographed ringside.
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: And then, Emily says, right around this time.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: David Ellison called a Paramount board member named Barbara Byrne,
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: according to our reporting. Barbara Byrne told David Ellison that
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: they shouldn't be talking. And our reporting shows that she
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: actually informed Paramount's lawyer and the board that he had
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: called her.
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: And why, just to put a fine point on it,
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: like why shouldn't they be talking?
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: General corporate governance rules would dictate that certain matters have
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: to stay within a certain group of people, especially when
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: you're dealing with with government regulatory situations, with deals, with
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: potential settlements. David is not the head of this company yet.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: Like they're awaiting the approval for the merger. And so
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: any missteps could really falter a few different things, right?
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: When he calls her, like what's your sense of the
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: nature of this call?
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: We know from our sources that David was very frustrated.
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: Because he was really eager for the merger to close
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: and that David Ellison told her he heard it would
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: take $ 49. 5 million to settle.
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: Just to note, because I know it's a similar number,
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: this $ 49. 5 million figure is not related to the $ 45
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: million contribution that David Dads Larry made to the group
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: supporting Trump. And in general, I want to slow down
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: and reiterate the facts we know about this call so
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: you can take them in. David Ellison wants to buy
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: Paramount and get this deal done. It needs approval from
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: the Trump administration, the FCC. Donald Trump is suing Paramount.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: David is seen hanging out with Trump ringside in Miami. Then,
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: around the same time, David makes this ethically dubious phone
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: call to a board member. of Paramount, the company he's
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: trying to acquire, and tells her there's a specific number
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: that the president, who's suing them, will accept as a settlement.
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: A number David happened to hear somewhere.
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: Yep, our reporting shows that that's what he heard, that
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: it would take $ 49. 5 million to settle. About three months later.
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: In July 2025, Paramount did settle. For a lot less money,
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: they paid $ 16 million to get Trump to drop the
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: 60 Minutes suit.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: And the merger was approved by regulators soon after.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: We asked the White House and Paramount if Donald Trump
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: told David Ellison this number, that he wanted $ 49. 5 million
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: for the settlement at this UFC event or anywhere else.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: Neither of them responded to that question. Even without knowing
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: about the call from David Ellison to board member Barbara Byrne,
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: the circumstances surrounding this merger seemed shady, like a possible
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: quid pro quo just out there for all to see.
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: Stephen Colbert, who was still hosting his show for CBS
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: at the time, said out loud what a lot of
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: people were thinking.
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: Now, I believe this kind of complicated financial settlement with
• 20:59
  Speaker 4: a sitting government official has a technical name in legal circles.
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: It's Big Fat Bribe.
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: He's not the only one who called it a bribe.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: Before Paramount agreed to the settlement, Emily's co-reporter at The
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal reported that Paramount executives were worried that
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: if they settled the suit with Trump while seeking approval
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: for the acquisition, they could face lawsuits or even criminal
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: charges for bribery. Criminal charges, of course, would require a
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: willingness from the government to pursue them. But the first
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: thing executives worried about, litigation, is now happening. Two weeks ago,
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: after Emily reported this scoop, A Paramount shareholder sued the
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: company along with David Ellison, Barbara Byrne, and a bunch
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: of other Paramount executives and board members, accusing them of bribery.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: They mentioned David Ellison's call to Barbara Byrne in it.
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: I do want to add, and this is extremely important,
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: Barbara Byrne said in a statement to the Wall Street Journal, quote,
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: David called to vent about how protracted the settlement process
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: had become. There was no intent to transmit information, intervene,
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: or collude in the settlement.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: In a letter to House lawmakers, a lawyer for Skydance
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: Paramount wrote that during the acquisition, the company, quote, fully
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: complied with all applicable laws, including our nation's anti-bribery laws.
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: Since David Ellison got control of Paramount, here are some highlights, lowlights,
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: of what's happened at CBS. David brought in Barry Weiss
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: as editor-in-chief of CBS News, purchasing her startup, The Free Press,
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: for $ 150 million. Barry Weiss is a former New York
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: Times opinion writer known for her sometimes right-leaning, often quote-unquote
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: anti-woke views. Her 10-month tenure has seen one journalistic controversy
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: after another, with accusations from veteran CBS and 60 Minutes
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: journalists that Weiss has been trying to warp their coverage
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: to be friendlier to the Trump administration. Ultimately, Weiss fired
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: a bunch of the most veteran 60 Minutes correspondents and
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: their lead producer. The other week, According to reporting in
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: the newsletter Status, CBS News initially indicated it would not
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: live broadcast Trump's primetime speech, where he was going to
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: spew lies about the country's elections not being sound. Then,
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: at the last minute, CBS aired the speech live anyway,
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: even though other major networks didn't. Regular listeners will know
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: that this is called media capture, when allies of a
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: country's leader buy up private media companies and then bend
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: coverage to suit him. We don't know that Donald Trump
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: asked for any of these specific changes, but he certainly
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: made his appreciation of the Ellisons clear. This one time
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: in particular jumped out to Emily.
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: I believe it was March of 2026 in Miami. There
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: was an event with a lot of business people, including
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: a lot of business people in the Middle East. And
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump took the stage and he publicly praised David Ellison.
• 23:57
  Speaker 4: He said, quote, You're going to be a great success.
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: you're going to blow away your father. And he'll be
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: very happy about that because he loves you. But it's
• 24:06
  Speaker 4: a great family. Great family. Say hello to him, okay?
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: This is on stage.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: And David Ellison was there. He was present.
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: Yes, he spots David Ellison in this crowd in Miami
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: and says all of this at a public event. It's
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: pretty remarkable.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: This is kind of the thing. It's like, zoomed out
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: these guys who are friends with Donald Trump, who've given
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: money to him, and then they seem to get approvals
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: that maybe they shouldn't get as easily for deals that
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: involve media companies. And then the coverage of the media
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: companies changes in ways that seem to be more favorable
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: to Trump. That's kind of like the high level view.
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: Does your reporting show have any more meat on the
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: bone in terms of the Ellison's talking to Trump about coverage,
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: you know, about decisions about the way the company should
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: be run, the media companies, anything like that?
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: Well, we know as Paramount and Netflix were dueling over
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: who would get Warner Brothers and they were making competing offers.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: This whole pursuit was like dragging on for months.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: Last year, Netflix was also trying to buy Warner Brothers,
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: which again includes CNN. And initially Netflix won the bid.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: Warner Brothers chose them over David Ellison and Paramount. But
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: administration officials, including Trump himself, started saying publicly that Netflix
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: might face trouble getting DOJ approval. And during this time,
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: Emily's colleagues learned about something that Larry Ellison said to
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: Larry Ellison told President Trump that if Paramount landed the
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: Warner deal, it could overhaul CNN. And we know from
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: our reporting that both Larry Ellison and President Trump aren't
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: fans of CNN and they believe it's biased toward liberal
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: news and biased against the administration. That's all according to
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: our sources. So that is a nugget that we included
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: in our article because we knew there were these kind
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: of talks going on.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: So Larry Ellison promised Trump that his family would overhaul CNN.
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: That Paramount could overhaul CNN.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: A Paramount spokeswoman said the Ellisons didn't make any such
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: commitments other than, quote, to deliver truth-based journalism. Oracle didn't
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: respond to our questions for Larry Ellison. And the White
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: House says Trump has been neutral to all parties in
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: the Warner Brothers deal. But Trump has long expressed his
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: hatred for CNN and its coverage of him, including just
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: this past weekend at the rescheduled White House Correspondents Dinner,
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: where he lashed out semi-coherently at CNN correspondent Kaylin Collins.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: after she won an award for her coverage of Ukraine
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: President Vladimir Zelensky's visit to the Oval Office.
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: I want to personally congratulate CNN's Caitlin Collins on receiving
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: her award. It was all about me.
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: It's a fake.
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: She shouldn't get the award. It was a fake, but
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: I didn't mind. I said, Caitlin, congratulations. But it was fake.
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: There's no question about it. But she's a young, attractive woman.
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: She never smiles. I said, Caitlin, do you ever smile? Smile.
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: You have a nice position. You're at CNN fake news.
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: You should be a happy person. So smile, Caitlin, just smile.
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: But we attack, and I thought Caitlin had.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: Beyond the direct personal broadside against Caitlin Collins, only the
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: latest one, this underscores just how much Trump loathes CNN
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: and might benefit if his friends, the Ellisons, control the network.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: Could Caitlin Collins be fired? On a Thursday in February...
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: Netflix's CEO made a trip to D.C., including to the
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: White House. He met with the attorney general, Trump's chief
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: of staff, and DOJ antitrust lawyers. Later that day, after
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: whatever was said in the meetings, he announced Netflix was
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: backing out of the Warner Brothers deal, and David Ellison
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: and Paramount were able to swoop in. The Trump Department
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: of Justice approved their takeover of Warner Brothers, and with it, CNN. Still,
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: the Paramount-WB merger is not a done deal. A dozen states,
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: along with the Writers Guild, recently filed antitrust suits against
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: the company, which is why the merger just got put
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: on ice for a year or so. Paramount has argued
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: that the pause is a good thing, an opportunity for
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: them to button up approval. David Ellison wrote his employees
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: this week, His dad, Larry, hasn't said anything about it, though.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: He's hanging in the wings. Quietly exerting his newfound media power.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: The CEO of everything.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: He's got his hand in so many different powerful companies
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: that are controlling the media and tech landscape. You know,
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: it was only in late 2025 when Oracle was part
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: of an investor group that gained control of TikTok's U.S. operations.
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: And that was a deal brokered by the U.S. government.
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: That's what Larry Ellison has gotten out of this buddy comedy.
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: And Trump? Well, there's the money. The secret $ 45 million
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: campaign payment, plus millions more, according to Emily and her
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: colleagues at the Journal. It's hard to put an exact
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: figure on it. But also, maybe more valuable to him,
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: the president's gotten the debasement of some of his main
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: media nemeses, CBS News and 60 Minutes. As one of
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: the network's longtime correspondents, Scott Kelly, put it before he
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: was sacked, the new leadership is murdering. I know you
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: said you entered into this just really fascinated by the
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: idea that, oh, Donald Trump and Larry Ellison might actually
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: be real friends. Why does it matter if they're real friends?
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: Versus a relationship of convenience or politics or business.
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: At the end of the day, I think if there's
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: a deeper layer to a relationship that might cause certain
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: decisions to be made or someone might get more leeway
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: than someone else, I think that we could all apply
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: that to our lives, you know, whether we're subconsciously like
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: nicer to people or we want to help them more.
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: if we're friendly with them. I think that's why I care.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: Do you think the friendship, the true or more genuine friendship, means,
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: Larry Ellison, is to give less money in order to
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: get what you want?
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: No.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: All right, so it's not like that.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: No.
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: I don't think so. I don't think so.
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: It's still a different definition of friendship than I have.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: I think from what we've seen in our reporting, you
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: still got to give money.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: Emily Glazer. from The Wall Street Journal. A friendly reminder,
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: as ever, to please rate and review Question Everything on
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: your podcast app of choice. Share it with a friend. Also,
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: follow us on Instagram at questioneverything.podcast and or Substack, questioneverything.substack.com.
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: These things truly help us grow. Next week, we'll be
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: back with more reporting on the landmark trial against Meta
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: in New Mexico, where we sent multiple reporters this spring
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: to chase down Meta lawyers looking for answers. Today's show
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: was produced by Sam Egan and edited by our managing editor,
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: Kevin Sullivan. I first learned about Emily's reporting, by the way,
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: on a show that's regularly in my podcast rotation, The
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: Town with Matt Bellany. Robin Semien and I are the
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: executive producers of Question Everything. Our team also includes producers
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: Zach St. Louis, contributing editors Neil Drumming and Jen Kinney,
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: and associate producer Kevin Shepard. This episode was fact-checked by
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: Annika Robbins, mixing and sound design by Brendan Baker. Our
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: music is by Matt McGinley. Abby Kwong manages our social media.
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: Our partners at KCRW include Arnie Seipel, Tejal Ajmera, Natalie Hill,
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: and Jennifer Farrow. We'll see you next Thursday.