Latest / Man In Your Corner with Shaun Tucker / The Burning Building: Why Intellectual Knowledge Fails Under Stress | Ep. 112
Transcript
- Shaun: Welcome back to the reset. I am Shaun Tucker, human performance scientist and authority architect. We are here in the Living Lab documenting the struggle, the science, and the and the shift for every high performance dad and founder who is ready to bridge the gap between performance and also their presence. So today I'm so excited to actually interview the man behind a book that is coming out on. Monday. His name is Aram Cargill and essentially I'll I'll give you his his bio because he is an independent researcher, he's an author and founder of Brain Benefit Movement, BBM, Neuroscience Informed, which is a neuroscience informed framework that focuses on the nervous system, nervous system regulation, mental fitness, and human performance. His work explores the shift from symptom-focused mental health models towards building measurable human capacity through practices to strengthen resilience, emotional regulation, adaptability, and cognitive performance. His research has been published in the International Journal of Family Medicine and Healthcare, the Japanese Journal of Medical Research, and the Journal of Neurology and Neuroscientists. He is the author of the Seven Pillars of Mental Fitness, which he also has. coming out on Monday as of next week. So Aram, welcome to the show. I'm so keen to get in what we're what we're discussing today. Aram: Thanks for having me, Shaun Really appreciate it and yeah, I look forward to the dialogue that can come out of these conversations. Shaun: Well, I'll actually love to start with ⁓ something you just shared off air and that is probably something that's lesser known publicly, but you said you are a father to how many children? Aram: Five of my own and four stepchildren, so nine in total. Five biologically, and four psychosocially through the through through the connection of a bl blended family. Shaun: That's incredible. Seriously, that is one of the most important credentials I think you have because balancing this kind of performance with being present and you know, having such a level of ambition, I think life throws us many challenges. And I think what we were discussing off air as well is one of those challenges was gifted to you. And that's where a lot of this kind of was born within you, right? Especially when it comes to writing your book, which is coming out very soon, which ⁓ we'll definitely plug in a little bit later in the show. But the first question I really want to ask is as perform as high performance dads, as high performance individuals, how do we really balance that factor of really emotional resilience and emotional capability and capacity with performing? Aram: The first thing I'd say, Shaun, is that we play many roles in our lives regardless of the label that is given to them. So we're switching between leadership, being a fan, a hobbyist, a semi-professional or what we would say, employee, and these roles are continually like a roller decks. into ⁓ being engaged within us regardless of what the actual external role is. For example, with our children, yes, we need to play the fan, but we also need to play a leadership role. ⁓ we need to learn how to be a hobbyist, which means that you are an amateur and you need to learn. And understanding those modalities and shifts within us is really, really, really important. ⁓ well for me it is. ⁓ to know obviously as a father I have to lead with leadership but I also need to come through that that door and potentially be a complete amateur looking for for new enthusiasm and and being a fan of ⁓ with my children and what I will say I'll bring it back to the inception of brain benefit movement ⁓ which I'm the founder of that that whole mechanism or should we say protocol was designed because of my inability to prioritize what I refer to as like the lower inputs in my life. So I'm I'm really good like you're talking about leadership. I'm really I've run really big companies throughout my life. I'm now 56. I've been around the block or around the globe a couple of times. And what I found is that I'm good at Big strategic objectives, but not so good with smaller arse coming in from many different directions. So if you're the leader of a big company, you can kind of bet those things out because if you're a CEO or a a founder or whatnot, you can be working on the business, not in the business. But as soon as you ⁓ move into middle management, which is more to do with like f fatherhood, is that Shaun: ⁓ yeah. Aram: I found my nervous system and my capacity to operate effectively was very much compromised when I had multiple asks at a more low level and how to prioritize them, especially when those asks are coming from people that I have a vested interest. So there's an emotional attachment to I like to placate the people that I care about in my life. So multiple asks come in, I become exacerbated. Yeah. I become I can become irritable too, because I because there'll be conflicting messaging within me about how how to placate, where to placate, and then in what priority comes in. So what I find with a lot of leadership is they've been able to vet out that whole that whole area of say Middle management where you're putting out spot fires, many spot fires. If I have too many spot fires coming in, I start not operating effectively. Really good with large scale objective strategy, holicopter view, you know, everybody wants to be the Steve Jobs and all this kind of stuff, which is all about removing yourself from the day-to-day problems and just having a helicopter view and and making that type of Shaun: Mm. Aram: strategic decision about an overall objective, but us as fathers, that's not what is going on. It's not Shaun: Yeah, there's a lot of day to day fires. Constant. Aram: It's a lot a lot a lot of day to day fives and then you need to know how to prioritize them. So if you don't have a ni nervous system that can take the incoming inputs without reaction and just to be able to start to stack them, prioritize them, and also meet them, as you so succinctly say, like with presence. ⁓ because that's the main thing, the first thing that goes out is presence goes out because we start to lock into executive function and so or attempt To lock into executive function. And so our presence disappears immediately. We're not actually present, especially for those that we have that hold importance and credence in our life where the role is blurred, which is our children. Yeah, as I just discussed at the beginning of the opening of this, our role with our children is continually changing from everything from CEO the way down to. Shaun: Yeah. Aram: Not a professional, they're not an amateur, not a hobbyist, but as a fan, and we're kind of going through all of those levels all the time and being asked to ⁓ engage with them at all those different type of levels, that's where it starts to become more confusing and harder for men to engage with presence. Shaun: Yeah. It's it's incredibly demanding, ⁓ energetically, emotionally, mentally, I find. ⁓ because from what I'm understanding through what you just said, it's like you have to meet them where you where they're at, not where you're at. And I think when you're in that leadership position within a big company that you're making very, very ⁓ important decisions for the health and the benefit of the whole company, it's it's quite different to to meeting that problem exactly where it's at. Aram: It's almost the opposite, yeah? Your role has been vetted so that you you don't well, you have to meet the needs of the company, not even the individuals. So you've got a buffer already, you've already got a cavear that gets you off the hook. ⁓ you know, a company is a legal entity for which you're supposed to be a service for not the individuals within it, but the whole organism, which you know, many people aspire to be able to get to that position, and also people are presenting to you in a way Shaun: Mm. Yeah. Aram: where that leadership has already been established, yeah? And where that leadership ⁓ has one has already been established, but then so people are vetting the problems to present to you in the appropriate manner of via which the CEO should be have these problems presented to them. Shaun: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think it's Aram: And that's why you have middle management, because they're dealing with the spot fires and then they're supposed to bring the overall terrain of where those spot fires are are occurring and then it's your job to get an overall strategy, yeah? But that's not how life works. Shaun: Yeah. It's not how life works, it's not how families work. Aram: No, but that's why Brain Benefit Movement BBM, which I'm the founder of, which that there is about improving executive function. So we can look at executive function a little bit. There's been a lot of talk on LinkedIn, which I will concur with that the cognitive capacity is more so the press office than it is the actual Oval Office. So within that press office that means what's getting the headlines, what's of importance and making sure they're sorted. And what's been given credence, what is given priority, and what is given focus, that's where that gets sorted out, yeah. So that the process that we talked about in a company is still happening because executive function is extremely important in being able to juggle all this stuff. ⁓ the thing that I will take note of, as I said to you just before, though, is that once we start to get in into executive function. Shaun: Mm. Yeah. Aram: and we're effective until we are really sitting in effective executive function, it actually gets in in in the way of being present. Shaun: Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. Which is why, you know, we have symptoms and we don't know what the problem is that's sitting beneath, ⁓ in many cases when it comes to our health even. Aram: Yeah. So Totally concur with that one. Yeah, look, for most of us we're just dealing with the signal, not being able to get to first principles with that signal. It takes a long time to get to a point where the incoming signals were being able to adopt or apply first principles to those signals. It's it's a it's a long time. And I'm now fifty-six to be able to develop that. But I d Shaun: Yeah. Aram: had to develop it out of necessity, yeah, because I'm actually There was a deficiency in me in in being able to deal with multiple signals. I'm really good at overall objective. I'm really good at strategic strategy. I'm not so good at many asks coming in from multiple different directions, especially from those that I care about and have a vested interest in placating. Does that make sense there? Shaun: Yeah, it makes it makes a lot of sense. And I mean s slight tangent, but I think it's very relative to what you're saying and it's very practical to what you're saying. But looking at even the medical field, you know, you have specialists versus like a GP. GPs don't get paid as much as specialists, right? But if you looked at the the capacity load, I mean, which one probably has more capacity for what you're talking about? Yeah. Aram: Well we'd hope our GPs, but unfortunately most of our GPs, in my humble opinion, and maybe it is because they're underpaid, are extremely underperforming. ⁓ and perhaps that's because I mean, I'm going into doctor's appointments where they're one, they're not even listening to what I'm saying or my par my my my parents or my my partner or my children are saying. They're almost Googling. Shaun: Mm. I I yeah, I agree with that. Yeah. Aram: solutions and I'm not joking with that. I've seen them Google. ⁓ Shaun: I've seen that too, yeah. Or chat GPT now. Aram: and not ⁓ and to your to your vernacular that you use so succinctly with your show, ⁓ not being present for what's actually in the room. Yeah. It's a numbers game, somebody comes in, they present, they've got to trying to identify what's being presented. So there's kind of a few little cues that they're looking for to hit kind of not milestones, but triggers or flag points. And then steamrolling along with that, whichever, you know, whatever's the lowest picking fruit, whatever is so I I concur with you, and it it's it's like ⁓ trauma or stress, whether the trauma has occurred on a single instant, which is more like the specialists, or you've got that long pervasive type trauma, which both of them have to be dealt with very, very differently. Yeah. Like so clinical trauma application, whether it's Shaun: Mm. Aram: long term pervasive trauma that's happened over a long period or whether it's a extremely traumatic incident or event that has occurred, the way those two you know those two traumas present they well they don't necessarily present very different they can present very similarly, but how they're dealt with is very, very different. Shaun: Yeah. Aram: So yeah, and most of the GPs, if they're good and educated, will simply, you know, they'll be looking for those those trigger points just to d to determine which of the two it is, but they're not going to be actually be present for the particulars, if that makes sense. In both those trauma responses. They'll just be, is it that one or is it not that one? And then do I subscribe this or subscribe that? Shaun: Yeah. Aram: Or subscribe this course of action or that course of action and still not present for the patient to understand the nuances of that trauma. Because still within them, like with BBM, brain benefit movement, it is an application for those with ADHD. But ADHD, how it presents in one individual and how it presents in another, is you know, your ADHD might be completely different to my ADHD. I mean, there's some key signifiers, but they are not. present i in a person's life exactly the same just because we've identified the label, they're not the same from one to another. Shaun: Yeah, it's it's it is an interesting thing. And I think, ⁓ to segue into something that I'd love the audience to understand a little bit more is the difference from or the difference between mental health and mental fitness. One one is almost like a disease, right? It's a it's a disorder. Whereas the other one is is empowering. It's like it's I have the power to shift and change this. Aram: And what one of them one of them like mental health kind of also lends itself to not being so proactive. It's like, what are you doing about your mental health or or what is showing up that is compromising your mental health? So we'll do something about that. Rather than looking at the individual's capacity and understanding. So that was my attempt in writing this book. Shaun: I'd love to hear your take. Aram: is to start to give a language or vernacular to the two polarities. Because at the moment the culture's only got two words, mental health and mental illness. But none of us are completely mentally healthy and most of us don't have a mental illness. We're all operating in that gray area in between. So we need to start to develop a language for that gradient in between those two polarities and start happing a much more Shaun: Yeah. Love that, yeah. Aram: Proactive framework, especially in this day and age, because we've got low-level pervasive stress occurring across the board on a day-to-day level. So if we don't start operating proactively, because the mind, what people don't get, is the mind is not here just for thoughts, it's here to also break down thought. So in breaking down thought is is an activity that takes a lot of baseload and and if we're not doing that effectively, which most of us are not, especially now that we've got any time that we're actually should be having time to break down, the phone has become involved, TVs become involved, alcohols come involved, you know, but we're not having proactive strategies that actually benefit us. Shaun: Mm. Aram: to offload this baseload that is now occurring. Across the board. Shaun: Hmm. How much does that actually impact our physiological capacity? So like our physical ways that we show up. I mean, I I see a lot of neuroscience people in research and neuroscience and looking at, you know, top-down executive function is kind of the the pathway that you want to kind of build discipline and things like that. But then you see a lot of the somatic ⁓ Aram: Massively. Shaun: therapists and people are saying, like, let your body lead like let the physiology lead you to the place where you want to go. It's it's so interesting, yeah. Aram: Which is correct. Executive function does not ha does not happen without the physiology, yeah? The hierarchy needs to be clearly stated. It is physiology first. Shaun: I a hundred percent agree with that. ⁓ Aram: We cannot access these things no matter how well we know them, no matter what insight we've got, unless the physiology is enabling us to actually access them. And when the body is stressed, no matter what you know, it will become inaccessible. Shaun: And I I know that through almost everyday experience, I'm sure you do too. Is when you are tired and run down or when you're sick is probably the best example. When you actually have the flu or some kind of ⁓ I don't know, virus or fever or something. It's like you you can't really override that. Aram: That's correct, but also who you are become so much of it becomes irrelevant, and you understand how much of it is the biology, that all of the stuff is just a construct, and it's all ⁓ being sitting on this foundation and a lot of it being built because of reactions from the biology. But it is a really, really important shift that is now in. occurring that psychology needs to understand that it is physiology first and I think that shift is starting to occur. ⁓ it doesn't matter what insights, it doesn't matter what in knowledge, if the biological organism cannot operate effectively, all of those aha moments, those revelations are not going to be integrated unless they're integrated through the body. Shaun: Mm. Aram: And the body has its own process. It doesn't matter how mu well you get it intellectually, your window of tolerance needs to be worked on because as you know and I know, you can be have profound leadershipship skills and be triggered if something doesn't meet the right protocol, justifications come into place. Shaun: Yeah. Aram: indignation, whatever it is, and all of those are reaction to your physiology not being able to access or have a s a stable state within the organism to be able to access what you actually cognitively have been storing. Shaun: Yeah. Yeah. I love for you to speak into this. Where does survival live then? I I I see there's two places where it lives, right? But I love your take on that because it sounds like if if it's physiology first, if it's not safe for the organism to really Be there and be present with whatever's happening. You can't take in new information, right? You can't even make proper decision. It's survival. It's probably the quickest, sharpest, shortest route. Aram: And to your point there, is even if you have taken in the information, is it accessible in the moment? So you may have gathered the information, you may have the information, and you may be able to access it when the environment is conducive to doing so. But once the pressure steps up, you you know, as you will have heard some of my favorite sayings, you will fall to the level of your regulation. Shaun: Yeah. Aram: You will not rise to the level of your aspirations. And that's ⁓ you know, it's a really important point that people need to understand because even now as we start to integrate ⁓ pharmaceutical ⁓ LSD, MDMA, all those type of things, all they are doing is creating headroom for a momentary access. But if the framework is not there to then continue from that point onwards, that work and I know this clearly because I'm now fifty-six, my parents are hippies. I saw the seventies. I saw I yeah, I I saw clearly the benefits of what psychotropic drugs can do, and I still know them from this day and age because I've got quite a few friend practitioners who are are now implementing this, you know, as we open up the floodgates to this. But I will say it only creates an access point. It enables for a revelatory experience to potentially happen or for the nervous system to calm down. But if the framework then doesn't continue from that point to actually integrate it, and I don't mean intellectually, I mean physiologically. And th this is the thing that's really important, because your audience, as they probably know, if they can operate well at work, which is one modality, but when there's modality switching, they'll s you know, their performance level will start to vary. And and what we want is that our state Shaun: Yeah. Yep. Aram: Can stay consistent through these different modalities so that it's state first, and then regardless of the story that we're getting, or the signal, or the input that we're getting, that it's that we're state enabled to operate effectively and be present, regardless of whether we're a leader, a professional, an amateur, a hobbyist, or a fan. You know, like. Shaun: Mm. Aram: All of those things. And I and children are a great example of this because you need to move through those continually. And I really love what you said, Shaun, when you said to meet them where they're at. Because in so much of life, we are able to construct a persona or we have a constructed role or a designated role. But if we're going to meet things with presence, then we need to be present for what is actually presenting itself in that. in that time. And so much of us, because we've got this low level pervasive stress, we're not meeting it, we're meeting it almost with a preordained template. And and that's for good reason. You brought up survival is because that's what will take less baseload, yeah? Like that's what will ⁓ enable us to actually operate. Because it for most of us, if we meet that stuff with true presence, most of us don't know how to Do that without that being a cost on the system. So it's a self-preservation mechanism. Do you you understand what I'm saying? Because most of us are not yet at a level to actually be present in our life fully all the time. We haven't got a nervous system built for it. So then we design roles, templates through through which we operate, which don't take up Shaun: Interesting. Yeah, yeah. Mm. Yeah. Well, it's modes of protection, isn't it, really? It's protection from that vulnerability of not almost not knowing, stepping into that space of totally unknown. Because what if I collapse in that? Because if that identity is a const construct, then it's just a mask or a role that we're playing in that space. Which makes it incredibly difficult when you're challenged ⁓ in that space because it it means that you are human. Aram: And ⁓ And that's correct. And the other point that you brought up within neuroscience, obviously the brain is a predictive mechanism, yeah. So we're wanting everything to be converted to a predictive a predictive type sequence, yeah. Because that makes us safe. And as soon as we're not able to predict it, then we're moving into unsafe territory, yeah? But that's what being present is about. Shaun: Yeah. Yes. Aram: You don't wanna if you're gonna be truly present, you're not dictating onto reality, you're open to reality and receiving and then doing that with with the information that you're given rather than trying to preempt the information. So that's why psychedelic type therapeutic or one of the reasons why therapeutic ⁓ application has been successful, because quite often Most of us are perceiving our experience, yeah? What drugs do is they bring you right up to the window and you're just experiencing your experience and then you make perceptions out of what you've experienced. So instead of that template that you're talking about occurring and perceiving your experience, the drug experience is so overwhelming and also not just overwhelming intellectually, it's overwhelming the body. So you've ⁓ and that's why quite often people move into fear states and don't get a beneficial experience out of it. Shaun: Yeah. Aram: But what we're doing is that we're moving out of perceiving our experiencing into just experiencing it and then making conclusions out of it or understandings, creating stories from the experiencing, not placing story onto the experience. Does that make sense? Does that make Shaun: Yeah. It makes sense. And I think it leads into probably the next question I want to ask, which is you hear this word integrate or integration a lot. ⁓ especially in the somatic spaces that I work in and I'm part of in those communities. But I'd love to know what what what do you mean when integration comes up? Because people have different I actually asked one of my mentors, like, what do you mean by you need to take three days off to integrate? Like what do you mean by integrate? Aram: For me, is integrate is is it to move from the head into the body. So the body's process is is quite it's slower than the mind because the mind has got a whole lot of templates, it rationalizes very, very quickly, it's already got as we just talked we referred to it as the press office, it's already got a mandate, yeah? So it's already taken that information, it's already got a pre designed mandate, which it's kind of Shaun: Mm. Yeah. Aram: Transforming that information into and done and dusted, and we can move on. And that's its role. That's what it needs to do. The body is actually what is presence is actually about, and it has its own process. So even if we get things intellectually, like trauma, that's a very good example. We can contextualize trauma, we can understand trauma, but the body has its own process. So even years afterwards. Shaun: Hm. Aram: People find that the trauma's still stored in the in its body because the press office was too quick. Yeah, it w well it has to sell it to so that we can continue to function. Yeah. ⁓ the body has a bigger job. It has to carry us through the world. ⁓ Shaun: It's P it's PR, right? Yes. Aram: In BBM, we have a saying that movement is our first language, regulation is our first teacher. So if you think about that, when we're firstborn, movement is what is informing the neural connections in the mind. That is what is actually creating neural connection. Yeah. The grasp for the teeth, the cry out, all that is signal. The mind is actually not in the driver's seat in the beginning, it is the student. Shaun: Mm. For sure. Yeah. Aram: And it is learning through movement. So movement is our first language. And why do we say that regulation is our first teacher? Because self regulation doesn't occur, co regulation occurs. We're regulating off our caregiver. Predominantly for most people, it's their mother. But we learn through co regulation. Okay? And both of these are the fundamental standing blocks that enable the mind to conjure all its grandeur and and and the rest of itself. And also create it biologically. Like the actual mo like the actual brain. Like let's the brain gets confused that it's kind of floating outside the body. And we we as a culture and everything get very, very enamored with this kind of, you know. metaphysical idea that there's consciousness and somehow that it's larger. But what if biology is the only way that it actually occurs and giving that biology its due credence? And by doing that, we actually access that stuff so much more profoundly, but not just profoundly, so much more practically that we can actually apply in our lives. That's why you get all these gurus and stuff who then ⁓ Shaun: Mm. Aram: You know, covorting with young girls and all that kind of stuff 'cause their biology they can't it they they haven't integrated. That's what your that's what your teacher means. They haven't integrated it. They've got it all intellectually, but it's it's not within the nervous system, it's not within their biology and they haven't elevated their biology to the same level as they elevated their highfalutin conceptual ideas. Shaun: Yes, that's it's really, really interesting 'cause obviously that space I'm personally interested in developing and working on myself to enhance my overall capacity and capability and consciousness in a way. ⁓ I don't know, I think children when it comes to this are probably our greatest teachers, right? Because They are sitting in the driver's seat of their physiology. They don't have that that regulation, that teacher informing them yet. ⁓ especially very, very young children. So how much do you see that in in what you've researched, in what you've done in the in this field? ⁓ just actually learning from young kids. Aram: Well it's it's everything 'cause as you just said, ⁓ they are sitting in their physiology, yeah. So children don't listen to what you say, they listen to what you show. It's as simple as that. So i if you're not centered, if you're not regulated, if you can't meet them where they're at, then that's what you're showing them and that's what they're actually learning from. Children don't do what we we say, they do what we show. So they're the they're the they're the ultimate teacher because they show us a way back to us having the capacity to be able to perform in a Shaun: It I mean Aram: far more complete way, not just intellectually, not just so my daughter, for example, has got autism. She was diagnosed with level three. Now people wouldn't even be able to tell that she's got autism. But one of the biggest things that we had to do was ⁓ navigate her expectation. But it was in two different ways. One becoming very vigilant about what type of expectations were arising. unnecessarily or that we weren't conscious of, but also seeding expectations. So you know, people with autism, the safety thing is really important for them. Thresholds or exchanges become very problematic for them because obviously it's new information. So you have to like, for example, prep the mind, we are going to do this. Like tomorrow, this and this. So that they've already got a mental idea of it in their own head. They've already integrated it. physiologically, they've got used to the idea. So one, we had to like seed expectation. So really go, this is what you're going to expect, this is what you can expect. This is what you're going to expect. But the other thing is with children is that expectations start to arise that we might not be aware of, yeah. Shaun: Mm. Aram: And that can be as little as we're gonna go here, but we didn't say that we're gonna go in a friend's car, ⁓ and then all of a sudden they become completely disorientated and discombobulated because they're used to going in the family car, but we were taking you know, somebody else was taking us or whatnot. So with somebody with high level needs, you have to really kind of say, We will be taking, you know, j Jenny's car, you know, this type of thing. So that's really Shaun: More interesting, yeah. Yeah. Aram: making sure that the nervous system has been primed, which is t which is two things. We just talked about the mind being a predictive mechanism and then the f physiology being a safety mechanism. And so those how that's how those two reciprocal relationships occur. The prediction moving into safety and the the safety the the prediction indicates safety for for the brain, which is then translated into the nervous system. So the two Those two siss systems have a slightly different language, but is it a reciprocal kind of symbiotic ⁓ emeshment that occurs? But what can occur the in the translation sometimes that that gets either disrupted, distorted, or whatnot. So we've to be very, very careful and then deliberate with Not only the language or the vernacular or the messaging, but the we it's better to think about it if we think about it in physiological terms, the signal. So how is the signal showing up? Am I expressing the message with franticness or necessity? Because the body will listen to that. Shaun: Mm. Aram: And it will obscure and a lot of people know this that a it'll ex obscure the message. Like the brain also d works on that level because it's in intrinsically linked to the body. It doesn't matter what you're saying, it's listening to the actual message behind the signal. So you've got to be very, very careful about the quality of the signal, and that's about self regulation. With children, it's the quality of the signal, not the actual message or the language or the vernacular, yeah. It's the quality of the signal which comes back to presence. Shaun: Yeah. Which obviously has nothing to do with really like material means. It's more to do with how you are in each given moment. ⁓ your physiology, right? It's the the message before the signal goes out. Aram: Yeah. I I'm a I'm a big believer that physiology, if we get more esoteric, is far more to do with the path to enlightenment or whatever whatever the mystics want to call it or actual self actualisation as Jung would refer to it, or if we want to talk about in high performance language, effectively operating individuals across dimension you know, across str you know ⁓ aspects of their life. Shaun: Yeah. Aram: It is physiology will be your greatest teacher. Learn through that lens. Shaun: Yeah. It's wow. I'm I'm really loving a conversation we're having. ⁓ it's ⁓ it's really, really i fascinating. ⁓ one because when my daughter was born, she's two and a quarter now. I just remember being so lost at the beginning of that journey when she was born because she made me super aware of my physiology because we were co-regulating from each other. Right? I was her safety vehicle and she was almost like my tool to get to that point where I could realise what the hell was going on with me. and I think a lot of parents, probably a lot of dads, they probably tend to run away from that. I mean, I used it as an opportunity, as a window, so to speak. Maybe because I have taken psychotropic drugs before. You know, I I was aware of that that there is a window there. And if you jump through, it's like a great opportunity. But I'd love To hear your take on that and your experience, 'cause you obviously you have nine kids, four are are not yours, five are yours. And how's that experience been for you? Aram: Yeah, the ⁓ having my first child was profound. ⁓ and I was very, very stressed leading up to it. I was immen you know, ⁓ building a really large company, so like kind of like a bird gathering sticks to build the nest and but really stressed out about it. And then as soon as my first son was born, all of that just dissipated because evolution and the natural b biology was like you know, ⁓ obviously things like serotonin oxytocin. flooded my pl and it was just like as soon as I held him it's gonna be all right, we'll we'll find the way that it has to happen because this miracle is here and it is my job just to make it happen. And then obviously biology ha you know, has got a a predisposition to want to make enforce that feeling 'cause they it knows that that's how you'll be most effective. Not if you're stressed and ⁓ we've got the we've got to do this, you've got to get that thing, we've missed out on that and da da da da da. Shaun: Yeah. Aram: ⁓ so leading up to it was all stressful, stressful. And then soon I held it was like, we're gonna make this work. Like we have to make it, you know, like and how can we not? So, you know, completely different experience within myself, and thank God. But to your point, also the other thing is about bringing up nine children. I've also another part of my credential within that is that That's over a thirty year period. So I've raised children in the two thousands, the two thousand and tens and now the two thousand and twenties. So I've got I've got a four year old, a six year old and an eighteen month old right now. But I've also the majority well, all the children within the two thousand and tens are stepchildren, then I had two boys in the two thousands. So I I've raised those two children. And that also has made me acutely aware of this this ever present stress load that I was talking about. And when you talked about integration, that we're not giving ourselves that our diet downtime, like your teacher said, take three days. But if you're continually scrolling or that your idea of that is to watch TV, ⁓ you're not actually giving the body time because what people don't realise is all that stuff creates a cognitive load, and that cognitive load results in a load on the nervous system as well. So we're not being able to actually allow things to integrate or the body to do its own process because it's still got incoming signal coming in, yeah? So it's still having to process new input, not actually and I said very importantly, the mind doesn't just think, it also has to break down thought, which is cognitively expensive as well. And but and and there's there's two parts. There's thinking part, metacognition that people refer to, but there's also lots of biological, there's actually waste from the brain thinking. Shaun: Mm. Aram: Through sleep we have to actually break down thought. Yeah. It the brain actually cre creates its own waste. So so through rest rest is our way of expelling that waste through all the stuff that we've done. So there's there's kind of three segments to this of ⁓ of doing it. There's kind of There's the cognitive aspect of if you can't break down thoughts as fast as you're creating thoughts, which is what happens for a lot of people with ADHD. And that's why we're seeing a lot of ADHD-like symptoms, which aren't actually ADHD. They're just we're now gaining ADHD systems within the culture. You know, because we're adaptive creatures. As many people have pointed out, people with ADHD would have been Shaun: Yeah. Yeah. Aram: supreme apex predators back in a different era. And that that type of neurology would actually be a benefit. Always being, you know, present for the external environment, if anything changes, so predators, whatnot. That type of Yeah. Yeah. And so that type of nervous system and that type of thinking is conducive to that type of environment. So there's always a reciprocal in Shaun: Yeah, being hyper aware and hyper acute. Yeah. Yeah. Aram: relationship, yeah, environment and who we are, physiology and the two are always they're in a conversation, yeah. They have impact they have impact on each other. So to that point, what I'm saying is that we have the cognitive, we have the physiology and then we have the pure biology. Yeah. That it's kind of like a three segment ⁓ part. And it's funny, what I find in all my research is three is a very important number. I don't mean to get mystic, but my my my work I come from a very scientific lens, but it still lends itself to well you know, what are statistics? They're pattern recognition. So really they're the humanities department of the mathematic mathematical fraternity, yeah. It's just because without human story, statistics don't it's just the study of human story, yeah. That's what statistics are. So it's like the humanities department. It's not really maths, it's just kind of it's math storytelling. But within that we notice patterns, yeah. It's pattern recognition. So three becomes really, really interesting. We think in story, yeah, beginning, middle, and end. Man, woman and child. Well now we're adding now we're adding to the story and whether it be non-binary or you know, or the whatever. But pri the primary principles, just like with colour, we've got lots of variations, but it comes down to magenta cyan cyan. You know, we have we've got Shaun: Yeah. Aram: three primary colours and then all the extredient around it. We think primarily through physiology, cognitivity, and then our pure biology. And they have all have a reciprocal moving relationship with each other. And they all impact each other, yeah. Shaun: Well, as you said, they're informing each other. Yeah. Aram: So that's right. And ⁓ I think that's perhaps what ⁓ even with the Christians what they're referring to is the the ⁓ the the Holy Trinity, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit that almost goes into that, you know, if you want to get metaphysical or spiritual about it. I think it's kind of some inclination towards that, yeah? The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. Shaun: Mm. Yeah. Aram: So but I I I don't go mind, body, spirit. I kind of think of it more as biology, physiology, which is kind of the nervous system, which is the which is it's kind of the gateway between the biology and the more cognitive type of operation that we have, yeah? And so the nervous system's negotiating both that those things. The thinking as well as the biology, yeah, and they both have impact on the nervous system, but the nervous system is our gateway to both of those to assist. Shaun: So it sounds like the nervous system is really that window of ⁓ experiencing the present. Aram: Yeah, well the nervous system well our nervous system is particular to us, you know. All all organisms have ha have habit, but our our nervous system Shaun: Yeah. Aram: Well, one, mammals are the only creatures that don't just run away to threat. We run away to each other. We know that our success happens together. Yeah? So the instinctual instinct for the individual is to run towards the caregiver or the pack, not just simply where all other all other species on the planet run just run from threat. Mammals are the only ones that actually run to other. Shaun: Run and gather. Yeah. Aram: Yeah, run and gather. Or run to for for children it's just run to mother or run to gather, yeah. To and that's why co regulation is so important for for us as a s as a species, yeah. And why the nervous system is that window. For for us. Shaun: Yeah, it's I think even now it most Yeah. I think now more than ever, you know, in the in the space of wars that are happening, it's ⁓ it's crazy because you've obviously got the survival mechanisms happening, but then run and gather and just s yeah, find out what's what's really going on. It's ⁓ it's hard. It's it's really hard to navigate. ⁓ Aram: Yeah, but ⁓ and I so I just come back to first principle thinking and for me the first principle is to come back to our physiology. And if we get if we get the state of our physiology right, then everything else becomes possible. And then you know, whatever story we want to build or create for ourselves is possible. But no matter what story we're building, we've got to remember that in the moment we are reduced we are reduced back to our reactions. Our responses, which is our physiology. And that there is our greatest indicators and teachers where we can put the foundation into operating effectively. Like if we want to be great fathers, we want to be great leaders, or we want to transpire out of our circumstances from poverty into riches, whatever it is. ⁓ fantastic, darling. Can I I asked if I could just finish this podcast? I'm so glad that you fin you finished both of them. So can you just start the other one? Okay, I just gotta finish this. Can you please finish off your toast and finish off the other puzzle and I'll be out in ten minutes? Okay. Okay? Thank you. I've set a timer for ten minutes. Okay, yeah, grab the timer, yeah? I think it's the black one. So yes. So our physiology is our greatest teacher. It's the place where we get into the devil in the detail. Not the big grandfaluting ideas, not the huge aspirations, but how those apps aspirations are actually accessible and actually viable and actually buildable. Shaun: Hmm, I love that. And I guess to tie everything back, ⁓ we do have your book launch or your book release, I should say, coming out on Monday. So I'd love for you to talk about what it's all about. I know there's it's the seven pillars of mental fitness. yeah, just briefly if you can give us a lowdown about what it's all about and how how it can help us ultimate ultimately. ⁓ yeah, please, please share. Aram: Yeah. Well the book actually travels back to what the culture's more preoccupied with, which is like mindset and the cognitive lens. So it actually engages that area because that's what most people are used to. But coming back to it Through a neurobiological through a neurobiological lens. So the seven pillars is vision, it's awareness, attitude, adaptability, grit, recovery, and cognitivity or connection. And we go through those pillars, but trying to come back through those pillars through mu more. As I said, neurobiological lens, so that we start to understand these concepts that the culture's been so preoccupied with in a more body sense of the word. So and and getting the mind used to the more mundane, banal parts of those, ⁓ so that we can start to integrate them more powerfully. So for example, vision is not about your big highfalutin ideas or where you want to get to. Shaun: Hm. Aram: it's it's it's addressed as orientation. We've got to have an orientation in in our lives. So it's it's you know, even man's search for meaning, many people miss the whole thing of that and and what enabled those prisoners to survive in those camps and actually get to the other part of it is about having a vision, but it's about having a vision with the everyday tasks that we have to and being able to complete those tasks. Shaun: Yeah. Aram: because we have an integrated vision of what is required. So we go back through terrain that is that is familiar and common and today's vernacular, but we're revisiting them, as I say, through a new lens so that we can start to understand these concepts for lack of a better word, holistically or just more integrated, more physiologically. So for example, attitude. Attitude is treated as a b a barometer in that. So it's a really great mechanism for self awareness because instead of it being, ⁓ have a good attitude I mean I really like attitude because I think the attitude is far more powerful than a mindset. Yeah. You can have all the I've I've had many clients where they don't have you know, mindset is not part of their whole language, la da da. But they've got a great attitude. 'Cause you know, they're the soul of the land, they've come from the country or whatnot, and they've just got a great attitude. Mindset has got nothing to do with it. So we if we refer to attitude as our internal climate, it's it's the filter through which information is coming through, yeah? Then that's a great barometer and a much more practical way to deal with mindfulness, so that we're actually saying, What is my attitude today? Is my attitude in this moment showing up differently to what my values and Shaun: Hmm. Aram: the the aspirations that I have of myself. So it's a wonderful mechanism. So in the book it's treated as a barometer. Yeah. It's a weather barometer for our internal climate. Shaun: I love that. Yeah. Sounds very, very, very practical. I guess using the word integration of some of these concepts that we've probably heard for a long time and yes, understood intellectually, but maybe not physiologically. Aram: Yeah. Yeah, synergetically, physiology and and and and getting a practical application. ⁓ so that's that's what the book is is extending the conversation where I think the culture needs to go, which is physiology first, and being able to get used to and then travelling over old terrain because people are familiar with that stuff, and giving it a vernacular that makes as and I love that you said that it gives it a practical framework rather than an intellectual framework. Because BBM, to tell you the truth, brain benefit movement, actually came about through the integration of one neurodivergent, but also people with trauma. So people with trauma find it very difficult to meditate or to do mindful practices. So BBM and also I don't like the word mindful because now every single psychologist and psychiatrist use it. One, where they're not very mindful themselves, but they kind of hand out a sheet. But people aren't given a really practical way to apply mindfulness. Well, meditation is a practical way, but people don't like that because it's really hard and people don't like doing it. So BBM is kind of how can I apply mindfulness in a practical way? How can I actually app so it's an application of mindfulness, a real application of it, rather than this kind of nebulous idea, like how does somebody be mindful in the moment? You know, it it's you know it So we've got to practice before the moment and then we get greater muscle to be in the moment and b ⁓ be mindful. But so BBM is a practical application of mindfulness that is not meditation, because meditation and and and yoga to some extent maybe. ⁓ but also with BBM it is also engaging the brain in a very specific way to increase executive function. but also to become more mindful. Shaun: Yeah. Aram: and within that is really what mental fitness is about is to be able to, as we've said, apply, integrate, and have an application. By having a practical application in our lives, then we can actually practice these things. Because another thing that I one of my pet peeves is that psychologists and psychiatrists training And practice really need to be pivotal within those consultations because true lasting change doesn't happen without it. It it really does. It's no. And especially in this day and age when we've got this prevalent, pervasive gnawing at the nervous system and at the cognitive load of social media and input. Most of us don't unless we've got nature lovers and they're still, you know. Shaun: Well it doesn't happen through concepts, does it? Aram: But most people don't even have access to nature anymore, you know? If they're so urbanized, where they get to it. Maybe it's a walk in the park, but they're still talking to other people in the playground, all that kind of stuff. So it's still it's still input, yeah? It's still incoming. So we have to be intentional about our input. And for me, with the old cultures, what was so in beautiful was say ritual. What is ritual? Ritual is it is the practice of saying I'm going to be intentional about what I'm about to Participate in. So practice becomes really, really important. A practice. We need to have a practice in our lives. And a practice will constitute ritual. It'll also constitute training. Well, it is training, that is the the core kernel of training. But we're in high stress situations, all the emergency services know to it is fall back to your training. Because when things get too Shaun: Yeah, go back to the level of your training. Yeah. Aram: That's right, because when things get too stressful or overwhelming, you you just gotta divert back to the drill. What have you drilled so many times? The protocols are this. This is what is gonna get us out of, you know, a burning building. There is a protocol. But most of us are now operating in where the catastrophe is happening on a low level, yeah? Shaun: Yeah. Yeah. It's the burning the there's a there's a burning building and they're unaware that they're even in. Yeah. Aram: We're all in a burning building. And we are, literally. We literally the culture is now a burning building. So if people don't have their own protocols, they're going to become discombobulated, distressed, confused, and they've got to fall back to their level of training, but which means that they've got to also choose a practice, choose a training. And that's the only thing that is going to get them in line to have a harmonia, can be able to conduct themselves. effectively and harmonious in their life. They've got a pick to practice. Shaun: couldn't have said it better. So So where where where do people get the book from? Aram: It's on Amazon. It's also going to be available. They could ⁓ I it has its own ISBN number, so libraries and bookshops get it, but mostly. sorry, we've got scre the I think children have come home. ⁓ which means there's gonna be a bit of screaming going on. ⁓ so but yeah, so on Amazon and bookshops. So yeah. And then obviously look up aramcargill.com Shaun: Awesome. Aram: That's a start with some of my work. ⁓ Shaun: Amazing. I'll make sure that I put your book in the show notes as well as ⁓ your website as well. So yeah, Aram, it was awesome to have you on the show. That is the end of what we have today on the reset. ⁓ so if you're ready to stop being a passenger of your own life and start being the architect of your legacy, make sure you comment or DM wherever you see this podcast the word reset and I'll shoot you the seven day reset guide. Most people wait for their life to change. We actually architect our own choice. So change your state, choose your life. I'm Shaun Tucker and I'll see you in the next one. Thank you so much.