Latest / The Overland Journal Podcast / A2A Expedition’s Graeme Bell on Family Overlanding, the Defender TD5, and Traveling the World Long-Term

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A2A Expedition’s Graeme Bell on Family Overlanding, the Defender TD5, and Traveling the World Long-Term · The Overland Journal Podcast

0:04
Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Overland Journal podcast. I am
0:06
Speaker 1: your host, Scott Brady. My co host Matt Scott is
0:09
Speaker 1: not available today for this interview because as all of us,
0:13
Speaker 1: we were dealing with challenges and opportunities that are coming
0:17
Speaker 1: from being sheltered in place. But I have a distinguished
0:21
Speaker 1: guest today, and I say that personally because Graham Bell
0:25
Speaker 1: and his wife Luisa and their family. They have been
0:28
Speaker 1: an inspiration to me in their travels. They run a
0:32
Speaker 1: website A two a Expedition. It's also kind of the
0:34
Speaker 1: name of their journey, and I have watched them for
0:39
Speaker 1: the last six or seven years as they have traveled
0:42
Speaker 1: throughout the Americas and then ultimately traveling all the way
0:46
Speaker 1: down the length of Africa. For us as Overland Journal,
0:49
Speaker 1: the people that we associate with the publication, I believe
0:52
Speaker 1: is critical to our audience. It's a service that we
0:56
Speaker 1: provide to our reader and having someone that is as
1:00
Speaker 1: entertaining a writer as Graham is, plus his depth of
1:03
Speaker 1: experience and genuine knowledge around the subject is very rare,
1:07
Speaker 1: So we try to as much as possible surround ourselves
1:11
Speaker 1: with journalists and travelers that have that experience that they
1:15
Speaker 1: can share from a genuine place of knowledge. And I'm
1:19
Speaker 1: really proud to have Graham on the call today. Thank
1:22
Speaker 1: you for being with us.
1:24
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me Scott, it's Trillian on.
1:26
Speaker 2: I appreciate it well.
1:28
Speaker 1: And tell us where you are right now in the world.
1:32
Speaker 2: We are in South Africa. We're preparing for our next
1:35
Speaker 2: big journey, and yeah, you know, the troubles came along,
1:40
Speaker 2: so we had to find good solve a good situation.
1:43
Speaker 2: So we find ourselves a little place in the forest
1:45
Speaker 2: and we're just yeah waiting it all that.
1:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, we were actually trying to do this podcast together
1:51
Speaker 1: in person in South Africa. It just so happened that
1:54
Speaker 1: your journey, your trip north on the eastern side of Africa,
1:59
Speaker 1: was going to core spawn with the trip that I
2:01
Speaker 1: had planned up to either Zambia or possibly even ending
2:06
Speaker 1: in Kenya. We were going to try to connect along
2:08
Speaker 1: the way and have the podcast there. But we're going
2:11
Speaker 1: to take advantage of technology we still can. Yeah, I know,
2:13
Speaker 1: I hope we still can as well, because I do
2:16
Speaker 1: plan on getting back to Africa as soon as soon
2:19
Speaker 1: as possible to do that trip. And tell me a
2:23
Speaker 1: little bit about your family, tell me a little bit
2:26
Speaker 1: about your wife and your kids and how long you
2:28
Speaker 1: guys have been on the road.
2:30
Speaker 2: All right, So my wife Louisa, she's ginger Ninja. She's
2:34
Speaker 2: the driving post behind everything. We all fear her. There's
2:38
Speaker 2: my son Kielan, who is now twenty, and my daughter Jessica,
2:42
Speaker 2: who is fifteen. When we started traveling, they were but
2:48
Speaker 2: she was seven years old, he was twelve, And they've
2:51
Speaker 2: grown up traveling the world in living in a land driver.
2:55
Speaker 2: So they're pretty tough kids, but they're super sweet, the
2:59
Speaker 2: great hearts, really wonderful people. I love my family very much.
3:03
Speaker 1: It seems like such a blessing and travel can be
3:06
Speaker 1: such a blessing for families and for children in particular,
3:11
Speaker 1: because they're not just hearing about a place like Morocco
3:15
Speaker 1: in a textbook or from a teacher. They're actually your
3:18
Speaker 1: kids are actually experiencing Morocco. They know where Casablanca is
3:22
Speaker 1: on a map because they've been there. And that's one
3:25
Speaker 1: of the questions that I have. That's one of the
3:26
Speaker 1: questions that I had for you, is is how do
3:29
Speaker 1: you engage your kids in the travel experience and educate
3:33
Speaker 1: them as they're going around the globe.
3:35
Speaker 2: It's an interesting question because you know, for many people,
3:39
Speaker 2: they look at our lifestyle and they think it's it's
3:43
Speaker 2: to fuel to describe how other people feel. But what
3:47
Speaker 2: we do seem such a permanent adventure and it's so
3:49
Speaker 2: exciting and so amazing. But the kids have been doing
3:52
Speaker 2: it for so long that it's just become a way
3:54
Speaker 2: of life for them. Crossing a border and going to
3:57
Speaker 2: a new country is it's it's like normal kids going
4:02
Speaker 2: on to school outing. You know, I'm not saying they
4:05
Speaker 2: don't love it and they don't enjoy it, but it's
4:08
Speaker 2: not exceptional to them anymore. And to me, that's a
4:11
Speaker 2: fantastic thing, because the world is their oyster. It it
4:14
Speaker 2: really is. They've met so many different people from different cultures.
4:18
Speaker 2: They've been to five continents, they can communicate in a
4:22
Speaker 2: bunch of languages. It's just, I think been the most
4:26
Speaker 2: amazing experience that we could give our children and ourselves
4:30
Speaker 2: because we've got to spend almost every day together through
4:33
Speaker 2: their childhood. We got to learn together, grow together. We
4:36
Speaker 2: know how to communicate with each other, and we're learning
4:42
Speaker 2: as they learn, and we teach them and they teach us.
4:44
Speaker 2: So it's pretty amazing from a textbooker academic point of view.
4:49
Speaker 2: They do the American syllabus. My son is just graduated.
4:55
Speaker 2: He finished his studies his high school and he got
4:58
Speaker 2: an average of what seventy And we're now looking at
5:04
Speaker 2: his future where he's going to go study, maybe in Norway,
5:07
Speaker 2: maybe in Germany, but we'll see how it goes. And
5:11
Speaker 2: my daughter is fighting mathematics with a heart and soul
5:17
Speaker 2: ly too. But she's she's really really good at at
5:23
Speaker 2: working with people and working with animals, and her English
5:27
Speaker 2: comprehension is fantastic, and she has a great vocabulary, and
5:30
Speaker 2: she's got a huge heart. And what we try and
5:33
Speaker 2: do is work to our children's strengths.
5:36
Speaker 1: Now, what a beautiful experience. And if you think about it,
5:39
Speaker 1: it's only been in very recent history that families haven't
5:44
Speaker 1: done exactly what you guys do. If you think about
5:47
Speaker 1: families even sixty to one hundred years ago, they spent
5:50
Speaker 1: so much more time together. They may have had a
5:53
Speaker 1: farm or they may have and they everybody grew up together,
5:58
Speaker 1: everybody worked together, everyd that he learned from each other.
6:02
Speaker 1: And I believe that what you're doing is giving as parents,
6:06
Speaker 1: it's giving you the opportunity to genuinely experience your children's
6:10
Speaker 1: growing up, and then for your kids, they're able to
6:13
Speaker 1: genuinely know and understand their parents.
6:16
Speaker 3: And I believe that so few people in the.
6:18
Speaker 1: Modern world have that opportunity to have that depth of
6:23
Speaker 1: connection with their kids because we can all be so
6:26
Speaker 1: we can all be so busy, and we all work
6:29
Speaker 1: so hard to make ourselves even busier that it's amazing
6:33
Speaker 1: that we have connections at all because of how much
6:37
Speaker 1: we have to work.
6:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, that's the thing is hit the nail on
6:42
Speaker 2: the head there. It's this urbanization has been in the
6:44
Speaker 2: last one hundred years. Before that, people lived pretty much
6:50
Speaker 2: in isolation, small towns, small farms, pluts. They did the thing.
6:55
Speaker 2: They were agricultural, and families were together and there's been
6:59
Speaker 2: mostly days ago, and they work together. And this is
7:02
Speaker 2: what we do. Everyone has their role in the family.
7:07
Speaker 2: We all busy, We take care of each other, and
7:11
Speaker 2: everyone pulls their way. And that's so important, I think,
7:14
Speaker 2: not only in terms of us getting along as a family,
7:18
Speaker 2: but also for the children's future that they learned these
7:22
Speaker 2: very basic but very important lessons about how to live
7:26
Speaker 2: a good life and how to have good, solid relationships.
7:29
Speaker 2: There's nothing temporary about our relationships. We're very strong together,
7:33
Speaker 2: we're very solid together, and that it can only be
7:35
Speaker 2: good for them, you know, going into the future.
7:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, no question. Yeah, it's such an inspiration what you
7:42
Speaker 1: guys have done with your kids. I remember being I
7:45
Speaker 1: think in Belize and I came across a French family
7:48
Speaker 1: and I actually don't remember how many kids they had,
7:51
Speaker 1: but they started coming out, they started coming out of
7:53
Speaker 1: this RV and there was many many again, entire gaggle
7:57
Speaker 1: of children, and talking with talking with the wife a
8:01
Speaker 1: little bit about it, she said, I didn't want my
8:03
Speaker 1: kids to grow up as strangers. She says, I wanted
8:06
Speaker 1: them to all know each other and to know us.
8:09
Speaker 1: And I thought that that was really beautiful and so
8:12
Speaker 1: different in today's time.
8:13
Speaker 2: The French are really good at traveling as families. They
8:16
Speaker 2: don't tend to do it long term. I mean, obviously,
8:19
Speaker 2: when I talk about long term, I'll talk about you know,
8:22
Speaker 2: almost decades. But they're so well behave those kids. They
8:27
Speaker 2: got a very good die and they you know, they
8:30
Speaker 2: helped to set everything up and they feed each other
8:33
Speaker 2: and all that. It takes one of the takes care
8:35
Speaker 2: of the younger and I was astonished when I first
8:39
Speaker 2: came across these French families, and it's really it's a
8:42
Speaker 2: good example for us. And you know, there's there's little
8:44
Speaker 2: bits of every culture that you can take to improve yourself.
8:48
Speaker 2: And actually, one thing we learned from the French.
8:50
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I agree.
8:51
Speaker 1: And I've learned so much from different cultures and mostly
8:55
Speaker 1: how bad I am at so many things. So that's
8:58
Speaker 1: why it's nice. That's why it's I used to run
9:01
Speaker 1: across people as we travel, because then we recognize, like
9:05
Speaker 1: that's a better way to live, whereas when we're isolating,
9:08
Speaker 1: when we're isolated within our own culture. And it's not
9:11
Speaker 1: to say that any culture is bad. Obviously, growing up
9:13
Speaker 1: as an American, there's many things that I'm proud of,
9:15
Speaker 1: but there's also things that I have learned in my
9:18
Speaker 1: travels that, oh, maybe I want to live my life
9:20
Speaker 1: a little bit different than the norm within within my
9:24
Speaker 1: own country. And and that's those are been really powerful
9:28
Speaker 1: lessons for me. And and one thing that's also kind
9:31
Speaker 1: of unique, just to segue a little bit, is you
9:33
Speaker 1: guys are traveling in a land Rover Defender. Tell me,
9:37
Speaker 1: tell me a little bit about your vehicle. And what
9:39
Speaker 1: made you decide on a land rover to begin with.
9:42
Speaker 2: Well, the land their names which is swahilias and oil,
9:47
Speaker 2: which is a very fitting for a lander. Well we
9:51
Speaker 2: started out, I think to tell the story of or
9:54
Speaker 2: the land rover, I have to tell the story of
9:56
Speaker 2: how we got it into our landing. Can I do that? Yeah?
9:59
Speaker 3: Of course you would love to hear it, all right.
10:02
Speaker 2: So I'd always been a traveler in my heart, growing
10:06
Speaker 2: up in isolated aparty in South Africa. I listened to
10:10
Speaker 2: American music and listened to European music and watch movies,
10:15
Speaker 2: and I've always had a burning desire to get out
10:18
Speaker 2: of my little conservative town and see what's over the horizons.
10:22
Speaker 2: I used to hit tiger around South Africa a lot,
10:25
Speaker 2: and then basically saved up enough money, got a flight
10:28
Speaker 2: over to Israel, lived on the boots for a bit
10:31
Speaker 2: too long with seventeen Scandinavian girls, but that's another story
10:35
Speaker 2: for another day. And returning to South Africa, I met
10:40
Speaker 2: Louisa and then we'd take our little whatever car we
10:43
Speaker 2: had first of all pick up and we'd just you know,
10:46
Speaker 2: go camping, just throw a couple like a tenth or
10:49
Speaker 2: way over in the back cool box and go off
10:51
Speaker 2: and have a good time and just explore the country first,
10:55
Speaker 2: like close to where we were, like we were in
10:57
Speaker 2: Johannesburg to just close to Mahali's and there was a
11:00
Speaker 2: lot of exploring that you could do out there. And
11:03
Speaker 2: then we started looking, hey, you know, I really want
11:04
Speaker 2: to go there, but my little pickup couldn't get up
11:07
Speaker 2: the hill or through the water or whatever. So then
11:09
Speaker 2: we got an old Series landover and then that's you know,
11:14
Speaker 2: you know how it goes to land rovers. It's a
11:16
Speaker 2: little bit of an addiction. It doesn't make sense always,
11:20
Speaker 2: but man, that first of all series is just phenomenal.
11:24
Speaker 2: Taught me how to do mechanical work. I had to
11:27
Speaker 2: fix the gearbox on it. We're like pretty broke at
11:30
Speaker 2: the time, fixed her up and flipped her. That actually
11:33
Speaker 2: paid for my wedding. And then then as soon as
11:35
Speaker 2: I could afford it again, we got another series. Then
11:39
Speaker 2: we got a Ranger of a classic, which was a
11:41
Speaker 2: terrible idea. There we got a South African called the
11:45
Speaker 2: R six. It's a Series three station wagon long wheel
11:49
Speaker 2: based the Platinus, and that became our first proper overland vehicle.
11:54
Speaker 2: We threw got a roof ten for that started getting
11:56
Speaker 2: it out and this is in two thousand and two
11:59
Speaker 2: thousand and five like that, drove all the way around
12:02
Speaker 2: South Africa with that, had a really, really good time.
12:05
Speaker 2: And then the year came of hey, let's do something crazy.
12:09
Speaker 2: Let's let's strive to kill them Manara and the series three.
12:14
Speaker 2: The she was okay, she is all rightually had a
12:16
Speaker 2: four point one Chevy Enginea, but she was she was
12:21
Speaker 2: not exactly reliable. So we started looking at other options.
12:27
Speaker 2: And to be honest, we looked at a lot of
12:31
Speaker 2: vehicles that are available, you know South Africa. I mean
12:33
Speaker 2: it's in terms of over land vehicles were spoiled for.
12:37
Speaker 3: Choice for sure.
12:39
Speaker 2: So we looked at a UNIMOD. We looked at twin
12:42
Speaker 2: land cruiser, the double cab pickup, which have been very
12:46
Speaker 2: good for us, a very good foot but it was
12:48
Speaker 2: very expensive. There's some patrols, but then we had problems
12:52
Speaker 2: with space for storage. And then eventually we stumbled across
12:58
Speaker 2: this Defender. There was a Defender one study double cap
13:01
Speaker 2: the Storm addition they called it in South Africa. The
13:04
Speaker 2: TD five engine which wasn't desirable. That did currently the
13:08
Speaker 2: TDI would have been a bit of choice, but it
13:11
Speaker 2: was available. It was at the time twenty thousand dollars
13:15
Speaker 2: and the round was eight ran to a dollar back then. Yeah, yeah,
13:19
Speaker 2: so she was gorgeous. Man and I specifically looked for
13:22
Speaker 2: a vehicle that wasn't previously used as an over lamp vehicle.
13:25
Speaker 2: And what I was looking for was more of a
13:27
Speaker 2: commercial vehicle or an agricultural vehicle, and this Defender was
13:32
Speaker 2: a X farm truck, which to be was perfect. They
13:36
Speaker 2: had a snorkel, it had a bull bar on it.
13:39
Speaker 2: That that's about it. Those were the mods and the
13:42
Speaker 2: body was in great condition. But the load area was
13:46
Speaker 2: pretty dentive to them were throwing rocks and cows and
13:48
Speaker 2: stuff in the back. But that wasn't a big deal
13:51
Speaker 2: for us. So I kitted her out rooftop tent, some
13:55
Speaker 2: Jerry cans on the roof, built a draw system, and yeah,
13:58
Speaker 2: we drove her up to to the Manjora.
14:01
Speaker 3: What a neat vehicle.
14:02
Speaker 1: I you know, I think that the TD five is
14:05
Speaker 1: actually a bit underrated by folks. I had a Defender
14:10
Speaker 1: one ten that a friend of mine owned in in
14:13
Speaker 1: Guatemala that we were we were storing here in Arizona
14:16
Speaker 1: for a while and I got a chance to drive
14:19
Speaker 1: it all over and it not only had much better
14:22
Speaker 1: driveability than the three hundred TDI, but it also proved
14:26
Speaker 1: to be very reliable. There are certainly some issues with
14:29
Speaker 1: the motor and the wiring, harness, et cetera that need
14:32
Speaker 1: to be addressed, but it was it was extremely reliable.
14:36
Speaker 1: The one ten that I have now is has the
14:39
Speaker 1: two hundred TDI and it and it has been one
14:42
Speaker 1: hundred percent reliable.
14:44
Speaker 3: I have lots of leaks.
14:45
Speaker 1: As everyone does, but no other no other issues with
14:50
Speaker 1: the vehicle. I mean even after years years of ownership.
14:54
Speaker 1: I mean I I've changed a lot of fuses and
14:57
Speaker 1: I've I've changed I've changed a lot of seals and
15:01
Speaker 1: filled a lot of oil. But it's it's literally never
15:04
Speaker 1: failed to start or do its.
15:05
Speaker 3: Job on any one day.
15:07
Speaker 1: But yeah, So what's your experience been with the TD
15:10
Speaker 1: five has it? Has it been reliable?
15:13
Speaker 2: Well? Excuse my absolutely. The Kilimanji trip was Cape Town
15:19
Speaker 2: up Mozambique, Malai, Tanzania, up to the border with Kenya,
15:23
Speaker 2: then back down across Zambia, Botswana and Zambia and back
15:27
Speaker 2: to South Africa. I didn't touch my toolbox and that
15:30
Speaker 2: was twenty five thousand kilometers. Yeah, South America. We drove
15:36
Speaker 2: all the way we shipped to Yurugo. I drove all
15:38
Speaker 2: the way up to the top of Brazil to Jellakaquata,
15:41
Speaker 2: then all the way back down down to Huia. The
15:44
Speaker 2: only problems we had was tires because we made some
15:47
Speaker 2: rookie mistakes. But she was perfect. But we only really
15:50
Speaker 2: started having problems with her where we hit extreme altitude,
15:55
Speaker 2: driving at five thousand meters, and then we started to
15:57
Speaker 2: have little problems and then the little has became bigger problem.
16:02
Speaker 2: But excuse me, without that the extremes of of altitude. Yeah,
16:10
Speaker 2: she was absolutely reliable, absolutely perfect. But I've got this
16:15
Speaker 2: great little engine management system called the Little Black Box.
16:19
Speaker 2: And people I always get questions like, what is the
16:22
Speaker 2: one accessory you can't leave I'm without, you have to have,
16:27
Speaker 2: And I say to them, it's this. It's this little
16:29
Speaker 2: black Box. I don't have shares in the company or
16:30
Speaker 2: any of that. It's just saved. It saved me so
16:33
Speaker 2: many times because it gives me that warning when the
16:36
Speaker 2: coolant is low, which is long before the engine gets
16:39
Speaker 2: too hot overheats, and that's when you start using head game,
16:43
Speaker 2: and that's saved our bacon up in the up in
16:46
Speaker 2: the handy. I think in all the years we've had her,
16:48
Speaker 2: in eleven years, touch wood the gearbocks when after two
16:53
Speaker 2: hundred thousand kilometers of every overlarding the we had never
16:58
Speaker 2: had that problem with the oil and the loos, but
17:00
Speaker 2: we did have the loom cook on top of the gearbox,
17:03
Speaker 2: which caused all kinds of electric Interesting, right, A couple
17:08
Speaker 2: of fuel pumps have gone part of the course, standard stuff,
17:12
Speaker 2: but nothing. She's never left us stand she did? She did?
17:16
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, there wasn't. The mountains in Morocco, we
17:19
Speaker 2: decided to take on this fur by foretrail on the
17:20
Speaker 2: Riff mountain and that's where they produce all the hashish.
17:25
Speaker 2: And we were coming out and we'd tackled the worst
17:28
Speaker 2: part of the trail up climbing up the mountain and
17:31
Speaker 2: it got through the sailing. I thought, okay, I'll get
17:33
Speaker 2: out of low range, and then I went through this
17:35
Speaker 2: little drift and up to the little hill and I
17:37
Speaker 2: accelerated and boom, the clutch just broke and we were
17:41
Speaker 2: stuck there for I couldn't even get it into one gear,
17:43
Speaker 2: which is strange but the whole pressure plates had just
17:46
Speaker 2: shed and we were stuck up there for four days
17:48
Speaker 2: trying to fix this thing, and eventually we got towed.
17:50
Speaker 2: But that's the first time she's been towed in many years.
17:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that that is an experience that you'll you'll
17:57
Speaker 1: never forget. I always find it interesting. It seems like
17:59
Speaker 1: the less that someone travels, the more that they obsess
18:02
Speaker 1: about reliability. But it seems like that the more someone travels,
18:06
Speaker 1: the more that they recognize that reliability is very important.
18:10
Speaker 1: But ultimately, even the best vehicles will break down. So
18:14
Speaker 1: if you just embrace that as part of the adventure
18:16
Speaker 1: and the reason why you left your home was to
18:18
Speaker 1: go have an adventure, I think it puts a different
18:21
Speaker 1: perspective on it. I remember I was I was in
18:25
Speaker 1: South America too. I was driving a one to ten
18:28
Speaker 1: three hundred TDI and that engine only needs one wire
18:32
Speaker 1: to work, and that's to open the fuel salinoid. And
18:35
Speaker 1: I remember, I remember I was stopped someplace along the
18:39
Speaker 1: side of the road, and you know, of course, the
18:40
Speaker 1: engine will run forever until you turn it off. So
18:42
Speaker 1: I shut it off and I go to restarted, and
18:45
Speaker 1: it would turn over, but it wouldn't run, and I'm like,
18:47
Speaker 1: you know, I think there's only one wire that it needs.
18:49
Speaker 1: And I sure enough, I traced down the one wire
18:52
Speaker 1: and it had the one wire had failed and broken,
18:55
Speaker 1: and so I put on a new clip and reattached
18:58
Speaker 1: it and it was connected back to the fuel solenoid
19:01
Speaker 1: and the engine fired back up again. So I think
19:03
Speaker 1: those are those are fun memories. I mean, I think
19:06
Speaker 1: about the times that I've broken broken down or gotten stuck,
19:09
Speaker 1: and and in the very first moments of it, it
19:12
Speaker 1: feels it can feel terrifying, right, it can feel like,
19:14
Speaker 1: oh no, what's happening is my trip over? Or how
19:17
Speaker 1: bad is it? But normally within a very short period
19:21
Speaker 1: of time, you start to come up with a plan.
19:23
Speaker 1: You realize how resourceful and kind the locals are, and
19:27
Speaker 1: the next thing you know, you're towed over to somebody's
19:30
Speaker 1: shop and they're helping you out. I remember being in
19:33
Speaker 1: the middle of Turkey and and this entire town came
19:36
Speaker 1: to our aid and got us to the right to
19:39
Speaker 1: the right shop. I remember I was in the right
19:41
Speaker 1: shop and it was the TRAbs On four wheel Drive
19:44
Speaker 1: Club shop, and they have stickers for they had expedition
19:48
Speaker 1: exchange stickers on their on their windows. I mean, it's
19:51
Speaker 1: such a small it's such a small world, and those
19:54
Speaker 1: are beautiful experiences when you get to have them.
19:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, and theos to such wonderful people. If I want
19:59
Speaker 2: to get breaking now, actually I did break down in Turkey,
20:03
Speaker 2: but that's another story.
20:05
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's great.
20:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's great, absolutely absolutely. What's your and what's your
20:10
Speaker 1: other than your your black box. What's the favorite thing
20:13
Speaker 1: that you've done to the vehicle the one modification that
20:16
Speaker 1: really changed the overall travel experience for you.
20:21
Speaker 2: Well, that would be the conversion into a hard site camp.
20:25
Speaker 2: It's a big modification. Yeah, sure, it's been a game.
20:30
Speaker 2: We lived in it in a Harley mooon roofstent. It
20:33
Speaker 2: was a two point four by two point four meter
20:34
Speaker 2: that's when it's open. We lived at a family in
20:37
Speaker 2: that tent, camping almost every single night before years. And
20:41
Speaker 2: then we got up to the States and we went
20:43
Speaker 2: camping up in the old Boot Desert there in eastern
20:45
Speaker 2: Oregon with a guy called good Guy Steve. And good
20:48
Speaker 2: Guy Steve had an ambulance. There was a Defender one
20:52
Speaker 2: ten and he put the old Marshal's one oh nine
20:55
Speaker 2: ambulance body on the back. And at that night there
21:00
Speaker 2: was a sandstorm up on the on the player and
21:04
Speaker 2: we all went and sat in his ambulance and had
21:06
Speaker 2: a little party, and we just realized, Man, this is
21:09
Speaker 2: this is this is it. This is just a way
21:12
Speaker 2: to go. And I realized in terms of longevity for us,
21:14
Speaker 2: because we're addicted to the overlayd lifestyle. You know, we're
21:18
Speaker 2: going to do this until our hearts stopped beating polably. Yeah,
21:24
Speaker 2: if we can, if we can swing it, and we
21:28
Speaker 2: just we just looked at this and we just thought, well,
21:30
Speaker 2: this is the way to go. Uh So we put
21:32
Speaker 2: a lot of time and resources into it, and between myself,
21:35
Speaker 2: my wife and my son, we stripped the old Landy
21:38
Speaker 2: down from a double cab pick up and built the
21:41
Speaker 2: camera on the back. And it hasn't all been smooth sailing,
21:46
Speaker 2: where we made some mistakes that we've had to repair
21:49
Speaker 2: along the road. You know, there's always something to do.
21:53
Speaker 2: But structurally it's fantastic. It's comfortable, we've got space, we're safe,
21:58
Speaker 2: we can go from the front into the back of
22:00
Speaker 2: getting out the vehicle. We've got have popped up which
22:03
Speaker 2: puts me perfectly on car tool, and it's really been
22:07
Speaker 2: a game changer for us.
22:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can see how that would be such an
22:11
Speaker 1: important modification for living on the road. I mean you
22:14
Speaker 1: literally are in your home and I hear that often.
22:18
Speaker 1: I mean Dan Grex said something similar after his trip
22:22
Speaker 1: around Africa that the next time he'd wanted to do
22:24
Speaker 1: it in something that had a little more interior space.
22:28
Speaker 1: And he talked about the benefits of the sportsmobile that
22:30
Speaker 1: he had been traveling with. And it also seems that
22:34
Speaker 1: you try to strike the balance, which is something that
22:38
Speaker 1: I recognize in myself. You try to strike the balance
22:41
Speaker 1: between liveability and remote travel capability because it seems like
22:47
Speaker 1: you like to really get in the remote areas, challenging tracks,
22:51
Speaker 1: you know, challenge yourself as a driver, challenge the vehicle.
22:54
Speaker 1: Is that kind of why you have stayed with a
22:57
Speaker 1: Defender in a sense?
23:01
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, And I'm in love with this vehicle.
23:04
Speaker 3: Yeah.
23:06
Speaker 2: The things we've done with is I mean, we did
23:08
Speaker 2: a seven hundred kilometer beach drive in Brazil. Wow, you
23:12
Speaker 2: couldn't do that with most vehicles. We've crossed the Amazon
23:16
Speaker 2: with across West Africa, and now with the way it's
23:20
Speaker 2: set up and I've added an awning now which has
23:23
Speaker 2: got walls that you could put on, and it is
23:25
Speaker 2: getting a little bit over the top of always joker.
23:28
Speaker 2: When the kids leave, I'm gonna put it in the
23:29
Speaker 2: hot tub and the pub. But it's at the end
23:34
Speaker 2: of the grueling day, you know, you pop the top,
23:37
Speaker 2: you cook some food, you lie back and relax, you
23:39
Speaker 2: read a book. It's a completely different lifestyle to travel
23:44
Speaker 2: long term and say a roof ten. And we also
23:48
Speaker 2: work as we travel. We write, we do videos, et cetera.
23:51
Speaker 2: And you know, we've got the solo. We've got everything
23:55
Speaker 2: we need in a space which is essentially the size
23:57
Speaker 2: of the king sized bed, and we've got two tall Yeah. Sure.
24:01
Speaker 1: And I remember when I think the first time I
24:03
Speaker 1: met you in person, I believe you had come to
24:06
Speaker 1: press it, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, And you guys,
24:09
Speaker 1: you guys were still yeah, you guys were still sleeping
24:12
Speaker 1: in the rooftan at that time. And I was so
24:15
Speaker 1: impressed by your fortitude. And I think it's that it
24:21
Speaker 1: probably takes a little bit of time to get used
24:23
Speaker 1: to it, and then you get used to it like
24:24
Speaker 1: you would anything else. But then I think, more importantly,
24:27
Speaker 1: it shows your commitment to wanting to see the world
24:30
Speaker 1: that you you decided that the most important thing was
24:33
Speaker 1: to see the world, and then you just figured everything
24:35
Speaker 1: else out or you let everything else be what it
24:37
Speaker 1: was going to be.
24:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty much, pretty much. I mean I'm not a
24:43
Speaker 2: spiritual person, but it's strange. There's the road gods and
24:47
Speaker 2: the calmer gods and all those guys, and you know,
24:50
Speaker 2: if you kind of do the right thing and and
24:53
Speaker 2: plan the right way and have your heart in the
24:55
Speaker 2: right place, things to contend to kind of work out.
24:58
Speaker 2: I'm very good. Louisa is not that patient, but I'm
25:00
Speaker 2: only get to being patient and just saying, well, let's
25:02
Speaker 2: just see how this plays out, you know, let's see
25:04
Speaker 2: where we can go with and let's see how it
25:07
Speaker 2: works out. But yeah, I mean, converting into the campo
25:11
Speaker 2: is half of that was I wanted my family to
25:14
Speaker 2: be comfortable. Yeah, it's it's one thing for us adults
25:19
Speaker 2: to have this burning desire and this dream, but then
25:22
Speaker 2: you expect kids to live in a tent. It's not right.
25:25
Speaker 2: I don't think it's not. It's not fair to ask
25:27
Speaker 2: them to do that. So that's really with this hard
25:31
Speaker 2: idea came about of changing it to the camp or
25:33
Speaker 2: is I wanted to make it more comfortable for the
25:37
Speaker 2: family and with that and still be cable, still be
25:41
Speaker 2: able to go wherever we could before in terms of
25:44
Speaker 2: offer driving and ability. But with that comfort comes possibility,
25:50
Speaker 2: and it opens up the future. And you know what,
25:53
Speaker 2: we're comfortab We've got everything we need, we where we're
25:57
Speaker 2: going to go. Now, let's go, you know, And and
25:59
Speaker 2: it really it frees us up to achieve these streams.
26:03
Speaker 1: And you talk a little bit about your wife and
26:06
Speaker 1: you talk about her personality being a little bit different
26:09
Speaker 1: than yours. Talk about the roles that everybody has within
26:13
Speaker 1: the team, So what is everybody's jobs in general? And
26:16
Speaker 1: then with this difference in personality between your wife and you,
26:21
Speaker 1: how would you describe how you guys stay healthy as
26:25
Speaker 1: a couple and you work through those challenges despite having
26:29
Speaker 1: different temperaments.
26:30
Speaker 3: Let's call it.
26:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, ying and Yang's you've got to
26:36
Speaker 2: have a fifty percent that can't be too similar as
26:40
Speaker 2: it doesn't work. So she drives me a lot. But
26:43
Speaker 2: it kind of goes back to before we started traveling,
26:47
Speaker 2: as we ran an immigration firm together that was obviously
26:50
Speaker 2: we were immigration specialists and that's served us very well
26:54
Speaker 2: later in life. We worked together in the little office.
26:57
Speaker 2: We had a huge host and we had a tiny office,
26:59
Speaker 2: and so we weren't side by side every single day
27:03
Speaker 2: for quite a few years. So to then be side
27:06
Speaker 2: by side working together in the land rover, it wasn't
27:08
Speaker 2: a difficult transition for it was. It was quite natural.
27:13
Speaker 2: But at the same time, you have to figure out
27:15
Speaker 2: a way to communicate with each other, give each other
27:18
Speaker 2: space to turn, to make lights of problems. I think,
27:24
Speaker 2: to let people vent their anger, and to use humor
27:27
Speaker 2: a lot. Humor is incredibly important for us. We're very
27:31
Speaker 2: good at that as a family, as we use humor
27:33
Speaker 2: as a way of venting frustration. But we also have
27:38
Speaker 2: very clear lines in the sand. You can use your humor,
27:41
Speaker 2: but you can't go past that point. So that's not funny.
27:44
Speaker 2: And now we even have the confrontation. So yeah, And
27:49
Speaker 2: it's easy to get frustrated when you're in terrible situations.
27:52
Speaker 2: And I'll give you an example, when we were staying
27:56
Speaker 2: in a little apartment or a cottage or our house,
27:58
Speaker 2: we tend to have a lot more problems with each other.
28:00
Speaker 2: That sounds terrible, you know what I mean? But when
28:04
Speaker 2: we're turbling, it's different. Like I'll give you an example.
28:07
Speaker 2: We were driving through the Republic of Congo and we
28:12
Speaker 2: had a problem with the CPS. This crank position center
28:15
Speaker 2: on the balhousing. It works off the clutch and without it,
28:19
Speaker 2: the TD five won't move and the wiring. We suspected
28:23
Speaker 2: the wiring was going, but the problem was we were
28:25
Speaker 2: driving this terrible track. The locals all drunk. It was
28:28
Speaker 2: a Sunday afternoon and they were hitting the land rover.
28:31
Speaker 2: My daughter had malaria in the back. We had a
28:34
Speaker 2: Japanese hitchhiker site on the floor eating all other Nanas
28:38
Speaker 2: it was, it was just like one of those days,
28:40
Speaker 2: extremely hot, and the land rover was stuttering and just
28:44
Speaker 2: like really struggled going uphills. The sun was setting, and
28:48
Speaker 2: you know, it was just one of those days where
28:51
Speaker 2: you kind of go, why do we do this?
28:53
Speaker 1: You know?
28:54
Speaker 2: Well, we found out a quiet place park off the road,
28:57
Speaker 2: hidden away from everyone, and straight away we parked, My son,
29:01
Speaker 2: got the fire going, We gave Jessica her courtum her
29:05
Speaker 2: vlarium met and Louis and I got tools out and
29:08
Speaker 2: got stuck in and we fixed the thing. We didn't
29:11
Speaker 2: shout of each other. We didn't give each other a
29:12
Speaker 2: hard time. We didn't get aggressive or angry or frustrated.
29:16
Speaker 2: We know by now that the best way to deal
29:19
Speaker 2: with it is to just deal with it. Yeah, I've
29:21
Speaker 2: just worked together as a Yeah, find a solution and
29:25
Speaker 2: then sit down, have a coldier, have a piece of meat,
29:28
Speaker 2: and just chill, you know. And that's that's what we've
29:30
Speaker 2: become really really good at, is working together through through
29:34
Speaker 2: really hard times.
29:36
Speaker 1: I've picked up a few hitchhikers in my travels and
29:39
Speaker 1: it's almost always worked out really well.
29:41
Speaker 3: How often do you do that?
29:42
Speaker 1: And tell me how you decided to pick up a
29:44
Speaker 1: Japanese hitchhiker in the middle of the contry.
29:50
Speaker 2: His name was Yuki, and apparently he's a bit of
29:52
Speaker 2: a legend. He's been all around the world, only speaks
29:55
Speaker 2: any English in where's his white tunic thing? And we'd
29:59
Speaker 2: met him in the ivory. Now, generally I don't take
30:02
Speaker 2: especially when we're in a cross board. I went cross
30:04
Speaker 2: the border with hitchhiking. I just refused to take that work.
30:08
Speaker 2: And there's a lot of public transport. If I'm in
30:11
Speaker 2: the middle of nowhere and there's someone in trouble and
30:13
Speaker 2: the hitchhiking and obviously I'll pick them up, but we've
30:16
Speaker 2: got our family dynamic, we've got our space. It's not
30:19
Speaker 2: always a good idea and yours. Yuki kid got into
30:22
Speaker 2: the Gabon Congo border and crossed it, and then we
30:26
Speaker 2: came later and I saw him sitting under a tree
30:28
Speaker 2: and I was like, Okay, well, you know, I'm going
30:30
Speaker 2: to take this guy with me. So that's why we
30:31
Speaker 2: picked them up then, But yeah, I'm a little bit
30:34
Speaker 2: parent when it comes to your time.
30:35
Speaker 1: Well, then that's a good piece of advice and something
30:38
Speaker 1: that the listeners can can benefit from. One of the
30:42
Speaker 1: main reasons why I don't pick up hitchhikers when I'm
30:45
Speaker 1: going to be leaving a country is that they could
30:47
Speaker 1: accidentally leave something in the vehicle or intentionally leave something
30:50
Speaker 1: in the vehicle like drugs or other paraphernalia that could
30:54
Speaker 1: really get you into a lot of trouble. But I
30:57
Speaker 1: picked up a Russian hitchhiker after or the Uzbekistan order
31:02
Speaker 1: going into Tajikistan, and that worked out really well because
31:05
Speaker 1: she spoke Russian and was able to actually help facilitate
31:09
Speaker 1: travel for a short period of time. So that was
31:11
Speaker 1: a benefit I remember picking up some Tarajumara and Indians
31:15
Speaker 1: in the Copper Canyon area of Mexico, and I was
31:19
Speaker 1: driving a sportsmobile at the time, and I let them
31:22
Speaker 1: into the back and there these two guys are looking
31:24
Speaker 1: around like what in the world is this machine?
31:28
Speaker 3: And then I.
31:29
Speaker 1: Remember that the fridge was accessible to the driver, so
31:32
Speaker 1: I kind of like rotate the seat around and I
31:35
Speaker 1: opened up the door of the fridge and I hand
31:36
Speaker 1: them both and ice cold coca cola because they, I mean,
31:40
Speaker 1: they knew what a coca cola was for sure, but
31:43
Speaker 1: then for them to put it in their hand, you
31:45
Speaker 1: could see that they were like, this thing is ice cold.
31:47
Speaker 1: And for them they just sat back there silent because
31:49
Speaker 1: we couldn't communicate. They didn't even speak Spanish really, and
31:53
Speaker 1: to watch them look around in this van and drink
31:56
Speaker 1: these ice cold Coca colas, and then we dropped them
31:59
Speaker 1: off at the next little village. I think it was
32:01
Speaker 1: bottle Peelis or something like that. But it was such
32:03
Speaker 1: a neat It was such a neat experience to do
32:06
Speaker 1: that and to bring them into the vehicle. But you're
32:09
Speaker 1: you're right, you have to be you have to be
32:11
Speaker 1: very careful. It seems like the more of a local
32:13
Speaker 1: that they are, the better off you are. It seems
32:15
Speaker 1: like when it's when it gets near cities or maybe
32:19
Speaker 1: even people that are traveling, you probably have more issues.
32:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's the thing. I mean, when we've got
32:26
Speaker 2: four seats, it's not really a good space for I mean,
32:29
Speaker 2: little Yuki could sit on the floor, he was okay,
32:32
Speaker 2: he actually slipt for I don't know, men, he could sleep,
32:36
Speaker 2: But for me, it's more crossing. You just don't know.
32:40
Speaker 2: You know, you don't want to put yourself in And
32:41
Speaker 2: because I have a family, I have to be careful
32:44
Speaker 2: with the family, and I have to think, Okay, what
32:47
Speaker 2: what's in the best interest of the family versus what's
32:49
Speaker 2: the best interest of someone else. But they were always
32:52
Speaker 2: the power.
32:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, and that makes that makes a lot of sense. Obviously,
32:57
Speaker 1: when someone is in in real trouble, we always want
33:00
Speaker 1: to do whatever we can to help. But if it's
33:03
Speaker 1: just someone that's looking for transportation, then we do get
33:06
Speaker 1: to put the needs of safety in our families first,
33:08
Speaker 1: for sure. And with you having done overlanding now for
33:13
Speaker 1: nearly a decade, you were doing this, and even before that,
33:17
Speaker 1: when you were in South Africa. You've been doing this
33:19
Speaker 1: long enough that you were well ahead of the curve
33:22
Speaker 1: on the popularity of overlanding, so you've seen a lot
33:25
Speaker 1: change in the last decade. What are some of the
33:29
Speaker 1: things that you like most about how overlanding changes has
33:33
Speaker 1: changed and what are the things that you have concerns
33:35
Speaker 1: around as you see not only the communities grow, but
33:39
Speaker 1: also the size of the audience and the scope of
33:43
Speaker 1: overlanding change.
33:45
Speaker 2: Yeah. The thing I think, because we've been doing it
33:49
Speaker 2: internationallyly bey on the road, it's kind of like this
33:53
Speaker 2: this growth has happened kind of without us. It's difficult
33:58
Speaker 2: to describe. We cross borders, we go across continents, and
34:04
Speaker 2: a lot of what I see these days, and obviously
34:06
Speaker 2: the growth of it has been it's localized overlanding, where
34:10
Speaker 2: people are mostly staying in their countries and maybe poking
34:14
Speaker 2: into the neighboring countries. And I get that, I understand
34:19
Speaker 2: that's exactly what we used to do. I just wish
34:22
Speaker 2: people would would would go a little bit further and
34:25
Speaker 2: just take it to the level where what I consider
34:27
Speaker 2: overlanding to be, it is purest form I suppose, is
34:31
Speaker 2: international overlanding. That's where I think, but that's what it
34:34
Speaker 2: is to me. It's obviously it doesn't have to be
34:36
Speaker 2: that for everyone. And I think that's so important in
34:39
Speaker 2: so many different ways, not just about how a person
34:43
Speaker 2: could grow through overlanding, but also the communities they meet
34:47
Speaker 2: and how can change people's perspectives of the people they meet.
34:51
Speaker 2: I mean, the one thing is too many people focus
34:54
Speaker 2: on the vehicle, on the modifications, on the suspension and
34:58
Speaker 2: the engine upgrades, on all the amazons and all the
35:01
Speaker 2: stuff that goes with the rig instead of focusing on
35:06
Speaker 2: the journey. And I think perhaps I've always said it's
35:10
Speaker 2: about style of travel. It's what you want to do.
35:13
Speaker 2: Nobody should give you rules about how you should over
35:16
Speaker 2: land or where you should go and how you should
35:18
Speaker 2: do it. I've got as much respect for someone who
35:21
Speaker 2: overlands in a Twitter to Corolla with a grounding as
35:24
Speaker 2: I do for someone who pulls up at a new unimon.
35:27
Speaker 3: Yeah.
35:27
Speaker 2: Actually I've got a bit more respects on for the
35:29
Speaker 2: guy and the Corolla because you know.
35:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's just making it, he's just making it happen. Yeah,
35:34
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, yeah, I think for me.
35:36
Speaker 3: For me, it definitely is.
35:38
Speaker 1: And it's an interesting thing we've been defining overlanding as
35:43
Speaker 1: vehicle based adventure travel since two thousand and eight or
35:46
Speaker 1: two thousand and nine. That's the definition that we kind
35:49
Speaker 1: of came up with it in the easiest form for
35:52
Speaker 1: people to remember. But one of the things that I
35:55
Speaker 1: think is important to ask ourselves is are we going
35:59
Speaker 1: someplace remote? Or are we going someplace foreign? And I
36:03
Speaker 1: think that those are kind of the modifiers that I
36:06
Speaker 1: like to use to differentiate overlanding from just camping or
36:11
Speaker 1: some other form of travel. And there's nothing wrong with
36:13
Speaker 1: any of it, it's all worthwhile and healthy. But for me,
36:18
Speaker 1: once I start to get remote, which means very far
36:21
Speaker 1: away from help, then I feel like I'm overlanding. And
36:25
Speaker 1: if I get to someplace that's foreign to me, and
36:27
Speaker 1: it doesn't necessarily even have to be another country, but
36:30
Speaker 1: most often is it most often is for me once
36:32
Speaker 1: I get someplace unknown, where I'm uncertain, I'm not familiar
36:37
Speaker 1: with the local cultures, or I'm not familiar with the language,
36:40
Speaker 1: or I don't even know where to go because I've
36:42
Speaker 1: never been there before, then it starts to feel more
36:45
Speaker 1: like overland. Overland travel to me, and certainly it's been
36:50
Speaker 1: traditionally defined much more towards longer distances and longer periods
36:55
Speaker 1: of time, and I think as it's become more popular,
36:58
Speaker 1: those things have reduced a little bit. But I do
37:01
Speaker 1: think that what you what you speak to is the
37:03
Speaker 1: most important thing is that when we first start doing
37:06
Speaker 1: this stuff, because we haven't traveled and the journey hasn't
37:10
Speaker 1: even necessarily occurred yet, because it's all been either so
37:14
Speaker 1: fractal or so local, that we do focus a lot
37:17
Speaker 1: on the vehicle, and we focus a lot on this
37:18
Speaker 1: stuff because that's the thing that we can that's the
37:21
Speaker 1: thing we can actually interact with in that moment when
37:23
Speaker 1: we when we first start getting involved with any hobby,
37:26
Speaker 1: it's a lot. It's a lot about the gear because
37:29
Speaker 1: we haven't actually done enough of the real thing to
37:32
Speaker 1: know the difference yet. So the gear is very exciting
37:35
Speaker 1: and attractive, and it allows us to research and to
37:38
Speaker 1: buy things and to feel like we start to become
37:41
Speaker 1: a member of the tribe.
37:43
Speaker 2: Yeah. I actually I like to compare it overlanding to surfing.
37:47
Speaker 2: You know, you start out surfing, you can have a
37:49
Speaker 2: basic forward and you're going to struggle, and you're going
37:52
Speaker 2: to learn a little bit and you'll get generally better
37:54
Speaker 2: and better, But the important thing is the stoke.
37:58
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, And as you.
38:00
Speaker 2: Get better at it, it's going to get better waves,
38:01
Speaker 2: bigger ways. You can travel further to find those big ways,
38:05
Speaker 2: and and you're just going to get into it and
38:07
Speaker 2: and it makes you feel alive. And that's what I
38:11
Speaker 2: love about the way we travel is. Man, it's challenging.
38:15
Speaker 2: It's been the most difficult thing we've ever done by far,
38:19
Speaker 2: but it's so rewarded. You know, go back to that breakdown,
38:23
Speaker 2: send me breakdown. We had the feeling of it's just
38:29
Speaker 2: a buzz, the sloak, the feeling of achievement. When I
38:33
Speaker 2: got my family through that, we rolled out the other side,
38:36
Speaker 2: we made it back to civilization and and we did
38:39
Speaker 2: it ourselves. It was an immense feeling. It was so
38:41
Speaker 2: good for us. And there's those kinds of things that
38:45
Speaker 2: if you're pushing yourself, not pushing yourself too far. You
38:48
Speaker 2: take it in steps, but you get you get a
38:51
Speaker 2: little bit further, and you get a little bit less comfortable,
38:54
Speaker 2: and you just you see what you're capable of and
38:57
Speaker 2: see what you're what are the limitations of your vehicle
39:00
Speaker 2: and how you can improve it, And it gradually progress
39:04
Speaker 2: into the perfect setup, and obviously it's perfect for you. Yeah,
39:08
Speaker 2: not perfect for everyone else. But I think that's a
39:12
Speaker 2: great goal with overlanding. That's something I think people should
39:14
Speaker 2: should try to achieve a start small and then grow big. Yeah.
39:18
Speaker 1: Travel is such a wonderful teacher, and it keeps us
39:23
Speaker 1: humble because I make mistakes all the time when I
39:26
Speaker 1: travel because I'm not familiar with where I'm at. I
39:29
Speaker 1: make much fewer mistakes when I'm impressed at Arizona because
39:33
Speaker 1: this is where I live and all of it is
39:35
Speaker 1: familiar to me. So I really, I really appreciate being
39:40
Speaker 1: in places that are unfamiliar because I do make mistakes
39:44
Speaker 1: and I do learn, and I get stuck because it's
39:47
Speaker 1: a new kind of mud than what I've experienced before,
39:51
Speaker 1: or I'm in a different vehicle than what I've driven before.
39:54
Speaker 1: I do really appreciate that. I think that most people
39:58
Speaker 1: deal with fear, and fear is really only overcome with experience.
40:04
Speaker 1: So the more that we have experiences, the more confident
40:07
Speaker 1: we feel, and the more confident that we feel in
40:10
Speaker 1: unfamiliar places, the less fear that we're going to experience.
40:14
Speaker 1: And I think that that helps people start to break
40:16
Speaker 1: out of that comfort zone and realize that they don't
40:20
Speaker 1: have to have as much money in the bank as
40:21
Speaker 1: they think they do. They don't have to keep the
40:23
Speaker 1: job that they've been in for twenty years necessarily that
40:26
Speaker 1: they can go and have an experience of a lifetime
40:29
Speaker 1: and come back and still get another job. But then
40:32
Speaker 1: they've had they've been better, They've been better for it.
40:34
Speaker 1: They they've really experienced the world.
40:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think something that guys beautifully hand in
40:42
Speaker 2: hand with fever landing is minimum. Yeah. You know, business
40:47
Speaker 2: idea less is move and if and the lessons that
40:50
Speaker 2: you learned when you're traveling, when you're on the road
40:53
Speaker 2: translate step back into your everyday life. I mean, yeah,
40:58
Speaker 2: it's a fantastic opportune and it's just a great learning experience.
41:02
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter how you're doing it. But you just
41:05
Speaker 2: got to do this.
41:06
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're right.
41:07
Speaker 1: And the longer that you do it, the more you
41:09
Speaker 1: realize that you don't need that big of a tire,
41:13
Speaker 1: you don't need all of those gadgets, you don't need
41:15
Speaker 1: all those extra pieces of equipment. You think about the
41:18
Speaker 1: Japanese hitchhiker that you picked up. How few things he
41:22
Speaker 1: owned and he was seeing the world.
41:24
Speaker 2: Man. Yeah, well, but that's the thing. It's a lot
41:28
Speaker 2: of traveling. What suits you and what do you want
41:30
Speaker 2: to achieve? What can you afford? But yeah, you absolutely right, And.
41:36
Speaker 1: That kind of leads to a couple more questions for me.
41:40
Speaker 1: When you're traveling on the road, I mean a lot
41:42
Speaker 1: of people ask how do I possibly travel full time?
41:45
Speaker 3: How can I make a living?
41:47
Speaker 1: Can you kind of describe in general terms how you
41:50
Speaker 1: guys make a living while you're traveling to afford to
41:53
Speaker 1: go see the world.
41:56
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think the first thing to be mind is
42:00
Speaker 2: that I can coming back to dear of minimalism. When
42:05
Speaker 2: people are looking at travelers like us and they're looking
42:08
Speaker 2: at how long we've traveled and how far we've traveled. There,
42:11
Speaker 2: I know that everyone assumes that we're just wealthy and
42:14
Speaker 2: we were lucky. We're lucky and we're wealthy, But the
42:17
Speaker 2: reality is we've made a lot of sacrifice because we
42:21
Speaker 2: realize that this is pretty much how we want to
42:25
Speaker 2: live our life. This is more important to us than
42:27
Speaker 2: having new gear and new clothes, nice watches, big houses,
42:31
Speaker 2: swimming pools and ocean views. This is important to us
42:37
Speaker 2: and where we were willing to sacrifice for so we
42:40
Speaker 2: could get by on. Obviously, depending on the continent and countries,
42:45
Speaker 2: some countries are more expensive, but we can get by
42:47
Speaker 2: on two thousand dollars a month. So when people are
42:51
Speaker 2: looking at it from an out type perspective, they imagine
42:53
Speaker 2: how much they have to earn tof forard the way
42:57
Speaker 2: they live. Well, the way we live, we only have
43:01
Speaker 2: to earn two thousand dollars a month to be comfortable. Obviously,
43:04
Speaker 2: the future savings and all that comes as well, but
43:09
Speaker 2: essentially that's it. So we repair everything we have, We
43:14
Speaker 2: reuse everything we have. I'll wear the same pair of
43:16
Speaker 2: boots until they can't boot anymore. We'll we fix everything
43:22
Speaker 2: we you know, we recycle. We We don't own anything
43:27
Speaker 2: we don't need, and I think that's very important for us.
43:31
Speaker 2: We don't have expenses. We don't have to pay for
43:35
Speaker 2: school's tuition or you know, sat like TV and mobile
43:41
Speaker 2: to phone connections and all the stuff that people usually
43:45
Speaker 2: have to pay for. We don't have that. So I
43:48
Speaker 2: think that's the first thing that people have to understand
43:50
Speaker 2: is that if you live, if you're only spending so much,
43:53
Speaker 2: you only really have to earn some money, and I
43:56
Speaker 2: don't plan to retire. I've got no plans to retire
43:59
Speaker 2: over because my work has become my life. It's become
44:03
Speaker 2: my passion and it's I love doing it and I
44:07
Speaker 2: enjoy doing it like a great satisfaction, not of doing
44:10
Speaker 2: it and doing as well as I can. Yeah, I
44:13
Speaker 2: hope that answers you, Chris, Oh.
44:14
Speaker 3: No, absolutely it does.
44:16
Speaker 1: And it's a reminder that we have to just continually
44:20
Speaker 1: reassess as people what is most important. But if what
44:24
Speaker 1: we really want is to see the world, then we
44:25
Speaker 1: have to find a way to make that work. And
44:28
Speaker 1: it's I'm really proud of you guys for how you
44:30
Speaker 1: have made living on the road full time possible. And
44:34
Speaker 1: that's I think that inspires inspires a lot of people
44:37
Speaker 1: that you don't have a huge trust fund that's allowing
44:41
Speaker 1: you to go around the world. You earn it every
44:43
Speaker 1: single day you work. You work for magazines like mine,
44:46
Speaker 1: Overland Journal, and you have your own outlets and you
44:49
Speaker 1: have your own companies that you work with that allows
44:52
Speaker 1: you to live on the road. And that's that's definitely
44:54
Speaker 1: an inspiration. Just a couple of minor things that I've
44:58
Speaker 1: got some questions on you write your own books? Can
45:01
Speaker 1: you give us the what's the breakdown of the books
45:04
Speaker 1: that you've written yourself?
45:07
Speaker 2: The first one, it's the you know, like the rock
45:11
Speaker 2: band comes out. It's like Pearl Jam ten that was
45:13
Speaker 2: their best album. I don't know if we will be free.
45:17
Speaker 2: Where's the best book so far? I think it's the
45:22
Speaker 2: rawlest book. It's it's it's full of emotion. It's that
45:25
Speaker 2: starting out, traveling, selling it all up, giving up the
45:28
Speaker 2: South African version of the American dream to go and
45:31
Speaker 2: pursue a dream and not knowing where this is all
45:35
Speaker 2: going to end up. So that book is about exactly that.
45:39
Speaker 2: It's starting out, it's driving up to Kilimanjaro, it's getting
45:42
Speaker 2: back and realizing, man, this is not much else that
45:45
Speaker 2: we'd rather do with our lives. Because we were so
45:47
Speaker 2: happy palled as a family when we were out on
45:50
Speaker 2: the road, as opposed to sitting in our mansion by
45:52
Speaker 2: the seaside, just working sixteen hours a day and just
45:55
Speaker 2: being miserable. So it was getting out of life, you know,
45:58
Speaker 2: just extra acting ourselves from the matrix. Well that's a horrible.
46:05
Speaker 1: But you know what I'm here, Yeah, Well it paints
46:08
Speaker 1: it paints a very clear picture that oftentimes we're plugged
46:11
Speaker 1: in to a matrix of either our own design, or
46:15
Speaker 1: of our own beliefs, of or of our circumstances, and
46:19
Speaker 1: we have to remember that ultimately we do have the
46:22
Speaker 1: choice to say no, I'd like to do something different
46:24
Speaker 1: with my life.
46:24
Speaker 2: Now.
46:25
Speaker 1: Not everyone has that, either that privilege or that opportunity,
46:28
Speaker 1: and I recognize that, and that's not to minimize minimize
46:32
Speaker 1: those that cannot make different choices. But if you have
46:35
Speaker 1: the opportunity, or if there is a way people should
46:38
Speaker 1: people should really look into how do they how do
46:40
Speaker 1: they start to do that? What are the small steps
46:43
Speaker 1: that allow us to have a different experience? So, and
46:46
Speaker 1: then what, that's a great book. I remember reading that
46:48
Speaker 1: one myself. And then what was the next one that
46:51
Speaker 1: you wrote?
46:52
Speaker 2: The next one was Travel de Planet Overnight. That was
46:55
Speaker 2: basically it's a beautiful book called cover. I know you've
46:58
Speaker 2: got a couple of copies beautif and that was you know,
47:02
Speaker 2: I think my writing style surprises people sometimes and it
47:05
Speaker 2: surprises me as well. But there's a lot of tunny
47:07
Speaker 2: cheek in there, and there's a lot of good advice surrounding.
47:11
Speaker 2: I mean, surrounded by bad humor. But travel the Planet
47:15
Speaker 2: over and for me was how to do what we've done.
47:17
Speaker 2: But then we'd already been on the road three years,
47:19
Speaker 2: We've had a lot of experience, We've made our mistakes,
47:22
Speaker 2: we'd learned from those mistakes, and that book is basically
47:26
Speaker 2: how to do what we do, and how to understand
47:29
Speaker 2: the overlanding community, how to understand long term overlanders, different types,
47:34
Speaker 2: how they afford to do what they do, and then
47:37
Speaker 2: it breaks it down, and how to motivate your significant other,
47:40
Speaker 2: how to take care of health issues, medical issues, how
47:43
Speaker 2: to bry like a South African good stuff.
47:49
Speaker 3: Yeah, really good thing.
47:51
Speaker 2: I tend a piece of beef. There is nothing better
47:53
Speaker 2: I've done in my life than travel Planet over, even
47:56
Speaker 2: though it was just going camping, getting away, getting out
47:58
Speaker 2: in nature. It's the hell oastiest thing you can do
48:01
Speaker 2: for your mind, and for your spouse's mind, and for
48:03
Speaker 2: your relationship. So I have no reservations using neurolinguistic programming
48:09
Speaker 2: to to get someone to do what's right for them.
48:12
Speaker 2: That's tongue in.
48:13
Speaker 1: Cheeks, Yeah, absolutely, yeah, And then it looks like you've
48:16
Speaker 1: got you've got overlanding. The America's which has got a
48:19
Speaker 1: fantastic cover. I love the cover artwork on that one,
48:23
Speaker 1: so good. From the Dad los Mortos. Yeah, and then
48:25
Speaker 1: you've got and then you've got Europe Overland, which was
48:29
Speaker 1: from your time after you were in the Americas, right.
48:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, Lalucha I mean any of the Americas. Laluca means
48:36
Speaker 2: the fight. And basically we arrived in the States pretty
48:41
Speaker 2: much penniless, and we were kind of at a juncture
48:44
Speaker 2: in our lives. But through hard words and having opportunities
48:49
Speaker 2: like writing for you guys, we managed to turn the
48:51
Speaker 2: tide to that and we turned it from well this
48:53
Speaker 2: could be the end to okay, now where are we
48:55
Speaker 2: going to go? It really was that we arrived in
48:59
Speaker 2: the States with nothing and we left. We had rebuilt
49:01
Speaker 2: the camper in Florida, we had published Travel the Planet Overland.
49:05
Speaker 2: We were selling a lot of copies that we'll be free,
49:08
Speaker 2: and it was very The time that we had in
49:10
Speaker 2: the States was fantastic because we learned from the Americans.
49:13
Speaker 2: And if you want to learn business, you learn from
49:14
Speaker 2: an America. You learn how to cook, you learn from
49:16
Speaker 2: the French. But yeah, that was their job, so over
49:22
Speaker 2: only in the Americas, that was a tough book to
49:23
Speaker 2: write because we went through some really really hard times.
49:26
Speaker 2: But at the end of it, I think we came
49:28
Speaker 2: through with the great love and humor and hard work
49:31
Speaker 2: and we proved that we could do it. And then
49:34
Speaker 2: Europe overland. For me, Europe doesn't seem like an overland destination,
49:39
Speaker 2: does it.
49:40
Speaker 3: It's right, yeah to most people. People don't think it is.
49:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but it can be. I mean, and it's
49:46
Speaker 2: a great starting point because it's so beautiful. There's a
49:49
Speaker 2: lot of nature. You can get off into the mountains
49:52
Speaker 2: Spain and Portugal. There's a lot of opportunities to go
49:55
Speaker 2: off and explore, and it's so close to Turkey, Morocco, Scandinavia,
50:00
Speaker 2: and we obviously unfortunately didn't get to Scandinavia, but I
50:03
Speaker 2: know it's absolutely fantastic up there. So that was my
50:06
Speaker 2: point is that with overlanding, europe is are seeking the Union.
50:10
Speaker 2: We were trying to find like, can this be an
50:13
Speaker 2: over am destination because a lot of people people a
50:16
Speaker 2: lot of times people dream about what's over there and
50:19
Speaker 2: what's over there, but they don't spend that much time
50:21
Speaker 2: looking at their own backyard. And it was very interesting
50:24
Speaker 2: as well to spend a lot of time with the Europeans,
50:26
Speaker 2: because man, those guys the serious overlanders in Europe. They've
50:32
Speaker 2: been everywhere and they've been doing it for decades. So
50:34
Speaker 2: there was a great learning experience meeting some of these guys. Yeah,
50:38
Speaker 2: it was. It was fantastic.
50:40
Speaker 1: The Europeans are prolific overlanders. I would say that between
50:43
Speaker 1: the Germans and the Dutch. I mean, they're certainly some
50:48
Speaker 1: of the most prolific overlanders in the world. And I
50:51
Speaker 1: did really enjoy traveling around Europe. And you mentioned Portugal,
50:56
Speaker 1: and that one's high on my list and I would
50:58
Speaker 1: love to go explore them because, as I understand it,
51:01
Speaker 1: there's a lot of remote tracks and full drive roads
51:04
Speaker 1: and everything to see.
51:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, Portugal is a great experience that the people are wonderful.
51:11
Speaker 2: It's affordable, it's really quite cheap. The weather's great, nice beach,
51:15
Speaker 2: there's lots of places where you can just kind of
51:16
Speaker 2: hate off and go here and there. Yeah, Portugal. Portugal
51:19
Speaker 2: is nice. It's really nice. I think Spain for from
51:22
Speaker 2: an o landing point of view, especially up there Galicia,
51:25
Speaker 2: the Pyrenees, the Picaupa, the mountains. There's a app wikilock.
51:31
Speaker 2: I mean, you can just disappear up into the Pyrenees
51:33
Speaker 2: for days and then pop out into this beautiful little
51:36
Speaker 2: village with the and you can buy this in thick steak.
51:40
Speaker 2: It's just perfectly matured and wine and and you know,
51:44
Speaker 2: it's a different experience. It's fantastic. I really enjoyed it.
51:47
Speaker 2: The Spain. Spain's very high.
51:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, I really enjoyed Spain as well. I remember I
51:52
Speaker 1: did a route from Andorra. It was an old smuggler's
51:56
Speaker 1: route between the countries before the shame, before the Shangen agreement.
52:00
Speaker 2: And you're right.
52:01
Speaker 1: I came down into this little you know, it looked
52:04
Speaker 1: like sixteenth century village. The church steeple was barely standing,
52:09
Speaker 1: and there was one little inn, one little inn, the
52:12
Speaker 1: only place to eat. And they brought out you're right,
52:14
Speaker 1: they brought these thick pork steaks and yeah, and a
52:18
Speaker 1: bottle of wine with a bottle had probably been reused
52:21
Speaker 1: for the last fifty years. Just absolutely wonderful. And it
52:26
Speaker 1: is such a great destination for sure.
52:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's the costume history as well. So that
52:31
Speaker 2: little town you're talking about it, it's gone by the river.
52:34
Speaker 2: I'm struggling to remember the name. I think it was
52:37
Speaker 2: not man or Man or something like that. But there's
52:39
Speaker 2: a book written about that town. It's called Thirteen Houses
52:44
Speaker 2: and Thirteen Murders, And basically there was a if I
52:49
Speaker 2: could just tell you a little bit about it, there
52:51
Speaker 2: was a conflict that the government local governments had changed
52:55
Speaker 2: the borders and some municipal lives had been drawn incorrectly,
53:00
Speaker 2: and it became this conflict about real estate. And in
53:04
Speaker 2: that tiny little town there are a whole bunch of murders,
53:08
Speaker 2: which is very very interesting.
53:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, for me, your books are great, and those that
53:13
Speaker 1: are listening, we'll have a link to all of the
53:16
Speaker 1: books in the show notes. But Travel the Planet Overland
53:19
Speaker 1: is one that I highly recommend, and then I would
53:22
Speaker 1: start reading about Graham's travels with We Will Be Free.
53:27
Speaker 1: It does get into a lot of the challenges and
53:31
Speaker 1: emotion that comes from separating yourself from the life that
53:35
Speaker 1: you've lived for so long into an entirely new way
53:38
Speaker 1: of living, and I think that it's a powerful inspiration.
53:42
Speaker 1: I think it'll give you a lot of sense behind
53:44
Speaker 1: what Graham and his family have done. And then obviously
53:47
Speaker 1: get all of his books ultimately, but those are the
53:49
Speaker 1: great ones to start with. And speaking of books, Graham
53:52
Speaker 1: is there. What's some of your favorite books? It can
53:55
Speaker 1: be about overlanding, anything. What would you say your top
53:58
Speaker 1: three favorite books that you've read in your lifetime.
54:00
Speaker 2: I think one of the one of my favorite books
54:04
Speaker 2: which taught me a lot about life, was The Profit
54:06
Speaker 2: by Khalil Gibran. I don't know if you read it,
54:10
Speaker 2: but it's a simple, okay, fantastic book. You'll love it.
54:14
Speaker 2: It's just a really great little life lesson. And then
54:16
Speaker 2: there's Sebastian Ungaro. Yeah, I picked up a copy of
54:20
Speaker 2: Tribes while we were taking care of a villa in Italy.
54:23
Speaker 2: You know, it's not all it's not all suffering and hardship,
54:26
Speaker 2: and yeah, we were taking care of the villa in Italy.
54:30
Speaker 2: And then half sitting is actually great thing to talk
54:32
Speaker 2: about another time. But Tribe? Have you read it? Sebastian Younger?
54:37
Speaker 1: I haven't, but I am familiar with Sebastian Younger. He's
54:39
Speaker 1: a very well traveled down.
54:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he directed There was Streppo about the guys
54:47
Speaker 2: fighting in Afghanistan, and he wrote this book about tribes
54:52
Speaker 2: and yet's going. When we started this conversation, you were
54:54
Speaker 2: saying how people used to live together on farms and
54:57
Speaker 2: and how we've changed over the last century and people
55:00
Speaker 2: are more urbanized. And he's saying in this book that
55:03
Speaker 2: there's something that we have lost over these years where
55:06
Speaker 2: we no longer the tribe that we used to be.
55:09
Speaker 2: And he describes guys returning from Afghanistan they've got PTSD,
55:12
Speaker 2: and he's saying one of the things that's really difficult
55:15
Speaker 2: for soldiers returning from from conflict is that they go
55:19
Speaker 2: from being in very tight camaraderie, like the situations where
55:23
Speaker 2: they're with their brothers in arms. They're out there together
55:26
Speaker 2: and they're fighting, and they come back to the States
55:28
Speaker 2: and then they disperse and they're out there and they're
55:30
Speaker 2: on their own. And the certain thing that's very interesting
55:33
Speaker 2: to me is like, there is nowhere in the world
55:35
Speaker 2: that I would rather sleep than end my land over
55:38
Speaker 2: with my family with because it is the most safe
55:41
Speaker 2: and secure place no matter where we are on the planet,
55:44
Speaker 2: everything that's important to me is right there with me.
55:47
Speaker 2: And that's one of the takeaways I've got that are
55:49
Speaker 2: related back to overlanding. But he speaks about families that
55:53
Speaker 2: used to be or people who are kidnapped back back
55:57
Speaker 2: in the days where we had the frontier walls and
55:59
Speaker 2: that'd be kidnapped by the Cherokee of the Native of Americas.
56:02
Speaker 2: And how these people was that the Native Americans were
56:05
Speaker 2: very brutal with their with their with their prisoners, and
56:08
Speaker 2: they would torture them and beat them, and then there's
56:10
Speaker 2: that and the other. But once it was over and
56:12
Speaker 2: a lot of them were actually integrated into the tribes,
56:15
Speaker 2: and after a couple of years of living with the tribe,
56:18
Speaker 2: they said they had opportunity to return to civilization, and
56:21
Speaker 2: most of them refused to do it. They couldn't go
56:23
Speaker 2: back to the civilized way of living because the tribal
56:26
Speaker 2: way of living was just so much rewarding, much more rewarding,
56:29
Speaker 2: and it was just better suited to the human soul.
56:32
Speaker 2: So that that that book, to me, was was a
56:34
Speaker 2: very very good book to read.
56:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, what a wonderful suggestion. That's that's a great one.
56:40
Speaker 1: So we're getting we're getting closer to the end here.
56:43
Speaker 1: But I've got to I do have a couple more
56:44
Speaker 1: questions for you. What what would you say was your
56:48
Speaker 1: best experience that you've had as a family traveling around
56:51
Speaker 1: the world where it just lit your soul up so
56:54
Speaker 1: profoundly that you you you remember it as if it
56:57
Speaker 1: happened yesterday.
56:59
Speaker 2: That's so actually, because we've had a lot of those moments.
57:04
Speaker 2: We've had a lot of those members. Actually, you know
57:06
Speaker 2: what I was talking about, that breakdown in the conger, Yeah,
57:08
Speaker 2: that was that was a highlight for me. Yeah, it
57:11
Speaker 2: was also one of the worst moments. But at the
57:15
Speaker 2: same time, it was the fact that the whole family,
57:18
Speaker 2: after all these years together, we worked together as a
57:21
Speaker 2: wild ward machine. There was no selfishness. It wasn't about me,
57:25
Speaker 2: it was about us. And that I would actually go
57:28
Speaker 2: back to that that that horrible, terrible situation we're in
57:32
Speaker 2: because the family just pulled together so well in that moment.
57:37
Speaker 2: And of course there's things like finding ourselves on the
57:40
Speaker 2: beach alone in Turkey, the most beautiful, pristine beach, and
57:44
Speaker 2: we've got the whole place to ourselves and it's just
57:46
Speaker 2: absolutely peaceful, and there's Greece in there from the horizon,
57:50
Speaker 2: and you're just looking at your life and saying, yeah,
57:52
Speaker 2: it's difficult, but man, what experiences we're having. It's exceptional.
57:58
Speaker 2: It really is.
57:59
Speaker 1: If some one was to come up to you and
58:01
Speaker 1: they were they had maybe done some local overlanding and
58:05
Speaker 1: they wanted to go see the world. What what would
58:07
Speaker 1: be the first piece of advice that you would give them.
58:12
Speaker 2: For me, it's it's about identifying a person's style of traveling.
58:16
Speaker 2: What what do they like. It's one thing watching YouTube
58:20
Speaker 2: videos and you're seeing guys like us, which apply through
58:23
Speaker 2: Africa or South America or you know, other guys were
58:26
Speaker 2: doing extreme stuff going into the artbacks and and that's awesome,
58:31
Speaker 2: that's fantastic. I mean that that's the pinnacle, that's the
58:34
Speaker 2: big wave surfing of the overlanding world. But at the
58:36
Speaker 2: same time, you can get a fantastic having a fantastic
58:40
Speaker 2: experience just getting in your car, throwing a bit of
58:43
Speaker 2: camping here in the back and just going out and
58:46
Speaker 2: and seeing what suits you. How do you want to travel?
58:49
Speaker 2: You can't just mimic that guy because this is our
58:51
Speaker 2: either that looks great. You were to find out what's
58:54
Speaker 2: best for you, what suits you and and and kind
58:58
Speaker 2: of grow from there. So it's first it's really establishing
59:01
Speaker 2: your style of travel. What turns you on. You want
59:03
Speaker 2: to go be raally remote or do you want to
59:05
Speaker 2: spend some time in the country, going to see some
59:08
Speaker 2: beautiful sites and then get to some cities, have some
59:11
Speaker 2: good food, have a look at the culture, go to museums.
59:14
Speaker 2: People do it differently, and it's most important for me
59:17
Speaker 2: is that somebody who has to establish what works for
59:21
Speaker 2: them and that's the point from where they can jump
59:23
Speaker 2: off start getting further into to make it a reality.
59:27
Speaker 1: That's a great piece of advice. And Graham, I'm so
59:30
Speaker 1: thankful for you spending the time with me this morning.
59:34
Speaker 1: It's your evening in South Africa and you're taking time
59:38
Speaker 1: away from your family, and thank you for being an
59:41
Speaker 1: inspiration to me as well and showing me another facet
59:45
Speaker 1: of travel. Throughout your time working with us, You've been
59:49
Speaker 1: a pleasure to work with as a contributor as well.
59:52
Speaker 1: And for those that are listening, Expedition Portal and Overland
59:56
Speaker 1: Journal regularly feature Ram's excellent right in photography and how
1:00:01
Speaker 1: do how do people find out more about you? So
1:00:04
Speaker 1: if someone wanted to follow you on Instagram or get
1:00:07
Speaker 1: your website, let's share that with the folks today.
1:00:11
Speaker 2: Okay, and first I just wanted to say thank you
1:00:13
Speaker 2: to you Scott for the opportunity to for Overland Journal
1:00:17
Speaker 2: and Expedition Portal. You guys have been a very very
1:00:19
Speaker 2: important part of our journey and I've had to grow
1:00:24
Speaker 2: as a person. I've had to write things that people
1:00:27
Speaker 2: don't right and think like out of the box and
1:00:30
Speaker 2: be exceptional and it's and it's been really been working
1:00:33
Speaker 2: with a class act like you guys. That's kind of
1:00:35
Speaker 2: pushed me to the next level. I really hope and
1:00:37
Speaker 2: I'm going to get there. And so thank you to you.
1:00:39
Speaker 3: You're welcome.
1:00:40
Speaker 2: I appreciate it. Yes, So on Instagram it's Graham dot
1:00:43
Speaker 2: r dot bell Facebook. Where A two A Expedition got it?
1:00:49
Speaker 2: At your website is www dot A two A expedition
1:00:53
Speaker 2: dot com. What we're going to do in the future,
1:00:56
Speaker 2: as we've planned now to drive from Ktown to Bloody
1:01:01
Speaker 2: Vostok in Russia, and that's one pretty much one of
1:01:03
Speaker 2: the longest overland drives you can do. We'd have to
1:01:07
Speaker 2: jump over the two Is Canal and if we can
1:01:10
Speaker 2: get through Syria then we can do it. So that
1:01:13
Speaker 2: that's our big mission now is yeah, to drive from
1:01:17
Speaker 2: Cape Town to Bloody Boston. Yeah you will.
1:01:21
Speaker 1: You will so enjoy that journey. I've not done it
1:01:23
Speaker 1: in its entirety, but the Silk Road for me was
1:01:28
Speaker 1: one of the most enjoyable adventures I've been on, going
1:01:31
Speaker 1: through the stands, going through the Middle East and all
1:01:35
Speaker 1: of that Mongolia. Absolutely incredible. Yeah, that's that sounds like
1:01:40
Speaker 1: such an amazing journey. And we're going to look forward
1:01:42
Speaker 1: to following you along the way, and we'll have all
1:01:46
Speaker 1: of those links in the show notes as well as
1:01:48
Speaker 1: well as links to graham excellent books, and we're going
1:01:53
Speaker 1: to look forward to following your journeys. This is not
1:01:55
Speaker 1: going to be the last time you and I are
1:01:56
Speaker 1: going to talk because there's so many, so many subjects
1:02:00
Speaker 1: that we could go into in detailed. Hopefully Matt can
1:02:04
Speaker 1: join us for that. And thank you again, Graham, so
1:02:06
Speaker 1: much appreciated, and for those that are listening, thank you
1:02:09
Speaker 1: for your ongoing support and for listening to the Overland
1:02:12
Speaker 1: Journal podcast.
1:02:13
Speaker 3: And we will talk to you next time.